Orchestration 103, Part 15: Bass Oboe
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- The continuation of Lecture 15 from my course Orchestration 103: Flutes & Oboes - a detailed audiovisual covering individual wind instruments, now available from macProVideo and AskVideo.
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Seriously folks, don't get misled by similarities to saxophone timbre. The bass oboe can pinch a staccato with a precision no saxophone can match. Furthermore, it can translate the essence of oboe phrasing and nuance down an octave with a fine player on a well-maintained instrument. The danger in getting stuck on the similarities to saxophone would be to limit one's approach down the wrong path, or dismiss a unique resource. Have a listen to Hindemith's Trio for Heckelphone, Viola, and Piano; or the use of bass oboe in Delius' works. That's no saxophone. On the other hand, you might be able to use saxophone to simulate bass oboe to a degree on a solo, or supply a root to oboe family chords (with some care in balancing).
I'm just a casual listener and the difference is noticeable to me because these instruments lack the brassy character of a sax, being not made of brass, and possess a mellow sort of refinement as compared to a sax. Makes me wonder how one of these might sound in jazz, but they're apparently enough trouble for world class orchestras to use as it is.
Great video, however, I would have to disagree with your observation that the saxophone has "extreme penetrating projection", especially when being compared to members of the oboe family. (The oboe is the instrument of choice for giving the orchestra's tuning pitch for a reason). When orchestrating with the saxophone placed below or within a family of oboes, for example, the saxophone will blend and fill out the harmony without imparting much of its own distinct timbre to the sound at all. The tone of the saxophone in that respect, is far more neutral than a bass oboe would be. If you are fair enough to give disclaimers for intonation issues based on the state of a particular instrument being utilised for demonstration, please also remember that blanket statements about qualities pertaining to the saxophone, are almost certainly going to be based on the level of player skill you have been exposed to - this is not necessarily based on the inherent qualities of the instrument. This runs the risk of being disingenuous and dismissive of the saxophone as an orchestral/solo instrument (one that for pure numbers stakes and availability of quality instruments and quality players, nowadays potentially makes a lot more sense than instruments like the bass oboe and heckelphone). Also, have a listen to Hindemith's Trio Op. 47 for Heckelphone or Tenor Saxophone(!), Viola and Piano.
@@sakonhon You're reading way too much into my comments. I don't know if you missed the information at the start of the video, but in fact the next course has an entire section on concert saxophones. I wouldn't bother doing that if I were dismissing the saxophone or denigrating it in any way. And "disingenuous"? Why jump to the nuclear option here? We're all colleagues, there's no need for such pejorative language. I'm merely pointing out that despite superficial similarities, the bass oboe and the saxophone are instruments with distinct capacities and personalities.
@@OrchestrationOnline You're right Thomas, I was getting defensive and I do apologise! I often feel like the saxophone is just a little bit unwanted in the orchestra. Just this week I had a bassoon player (physically) move my instrument, simply because it was too close to her. (It was about a metre away from her already, and was on a stand beside me, just far enough away to not be hit by the baritone saxophone I was playing) I was sitting there at the time. It was about as unsubtle a passive-aggressive move as having a sound shield placed in between another player and myself (before I'd even played a note). Your videos and articles are fantastic resources and I understand what you are saying. It just came across to me initially that "the saxophone wasn't like the bass oboe or heckelphone because... (something positive about the bass oboe or heckelphone)". Of course, I get that you are simply stating that the instruments have their own value - but you can see why in my somewhat charged state, I misread and became a bit defensive. Again, I apologise and please don't block me! I do enjoy your great work! :)
@@sakonhon No worries! I understand your passion, and btw I share it! Thanks so much for your kind words, and I can't wait to hear what you think about me videos on saxophones (to be released in a couple weeks). :-)
I write notes lower than the instruments range = bad arrangement. Richard Strauss does it = Wow! what a visionary!
Or perhaps you're both misinformed. We're not sure if Strauss's communication with Heckel led to a misunderstanding about range. Is scoring out of range something you do often? ;-)
OrchestrationOnline Haha, I was just kidding, no one performs my music but me, if I write something too low, I rewrite it. Never knew Strauss was such a diva!
As an oboe player. My understanding is that Heckle built the initial Heckkephones to low A to see if they were viable and that the low F model was to be built after, and then it never occurred.
Thank you. I was afraid this was going to be full of innacuricies and it was quite well done with good information.
This is the most thorough video on the low oboes out there. Thank you for making it!
You're very welcome! Now go watch the video on bass flute! :)
the hecklephone/ bass oboe can be heard in the music from star trek deep space nine season 4 episode 25 "body parts" about 32 min into the episode when the character Quark is falling asleep. props to composer Dennis McCarthy for giving this unique instrument a solo in his score.
My oboe teacher has a baritone oboe, and I may get the chance to try it.
Thank you very much for the orchestral excerpts. Now I can listen for them when I listen to the works.
This video was excellently done! I'm a double reed player myself, and would love to get my hands on any of these instruments.
Alpine Symphony is one of my favourites. I didn't expect to hear that he scored for instruments that have only recently been invented!
Actually this video is perfectly timed as I have been writing for the Lupophon! Great to see it and its kin covered thoroughly and given plenty of great audio examples.
So glad to hear that! I hope that your project goes well!
Oh i thought the bass oboe was just a bassoon
I would have imagined it as an english horn
We all do..
James Renold English Horn is a tenor oboe, and I’m pretty sure d’amore is alto
I guess a bassoon would be a contrabass oboe
David Carroll no. Bassoon is Oboe’s weird cousin.
Amazing resource for such a rare instrument
The lupophone solo at 6:50 is particularly beautiful.
It looks like the Lupophone is the newest addition to the ever growing family of double reed 'improvements' like the contraforte. Definitely looking forward to newer innovations in these designs!
Then you obviously don't know about Bret Newton's Greatbassoon project, He's involved with an instrument maker to extend the bassoon family even lower than the Contrabassoon. I don't know when he will have the first playable Greatbassoon, but I have watched a few of his first update videos on said Greatbassoon.
@@caterscarrots3407 I know about his project, I've been following since near the beginning. He's making developments that are exciting but I'm personally more excited for these instruments as I feel like they will see more repertoire
Thanks for the great video. I believe that Heckelphones are beautiful instruments. Interestingly enough, it's mainly bassoonists that pick up the Heckelphone when it is needed in large masterworks, due to it busing the same reed as the bassoon. The idea of the Heckelphone was first conceived by Richard Wagner, who lived next to the property of Wilhem Heckel and the factory itself in Wiesbaden, however the invention never came to light until 25 years after the composer's death, and it was one of the most successful of instruments ever manufactured by the family company. Heckelphones were being made and shipped to Switzerland, the USA, and Japan, just to name a few.
Why did Strauss write music for instruments that did not exist? Was it just a mistake?
It may have been miscommunication, or wild optimism.
Strauss: hey yeah I’m going to write this part so someone could make it some day
Reminds me of Grainger, whose band scores featured strange and unknown instruments like the "bass melodica"
I'd take a look at Beethoven's Hammerklavier. Pianos at the time didn't have the register to play the whole range of the piece! And certainly keyboard technique hadn't been developed enough for the piece to be played until years after it was composed.
AnAmericanComposer Or the Nabimba Which doesn’t appear to have ever went into large scale production
sounds a lot like the tenor saxophone, but not as rich or deep as the tenor sax.
Were it to have a more profound sound, it would stop sounding like a member of the oboe family.
The saxophone would be a great orchestra instrument, too bad...
@@OrchestrationOnline you're being a bit defensive about the bass oboe against the saxophone, they're both instruments, no need to be so judgemental against saxophones
@@jacobb5246 I'm not being defensive about anything except the ability of orchestrators to make clear and informed decisions without jumping to conclusions. People saying over and over that the two instruments are exactly alike are running the risk of thinking there's no difference, so why consider scoring for one over the other? That slippery slope might lead to missing some great opportunities - a composer might put the wrong one into as score where the other might be better - and on top of that, score for one in a way that assumes it can play exactly like the other. Imagine a bass oboe getting a very energetic, exposed part for which can sound nothing but clumsy, whereas a tenor sax would eat that part for lunch. Or imagine the other way around: a tenor sax being put in a context where its resonance might not excite the same upper partials that a bass oboe would, throwing off the balance of a finely conceived texture. I could think of many examples besides in which thinking the two are essentially the same could lead to bad scoring. That's what I'm defending against. And as for the greatness of saxophones, there's absolutely no question about that - if you noticed, this series of videos includes an in-depth exploration of saxophones and their uses in orchestral music. I would be even more vehemently in defence against people listening to tenor sax and saying "Oh, in other words just another instrument sounding like bass oboe." :)
@@air_preep The saxophone is a GREAT orchestral instrument. My course includes a detailed exploration of saxophones used in orchestral music.
HECKELPHONE SOLO! Heckelphone players get all the chicks. ;)
Aww man I love these instruments! If I ever get one I’ll do a feature for my channel🤔😀
Glad to hear it! :)
Your series on MPV is my reason for getting a Library Pass. Can't wait for Percussion, Harp, and Keyboards. Thank you so much!! Now I can more confidently use the many sample libraries I have in my computer... lol
Fantastic video! Such an in depth view of these instruments thank you. I do have to jump on the bandwagon though and agree that the lupophone is similar enough in timbre to a tenor sax with a classical mouthpiece that it seems like a lot of extra work to get an almost indistinguishable sound. Love those bass oboe solos though!
Please. Do NOT get lulled into equating the two instruments, even by my examples posted here. Timbres can be similar, but that doesn't make one obviate the need for the other by any means. Read my pinned post. The essential qualities of oboe - its keen articulation, depth of nuance, and character of register are all things that a great orchestrator will find at their command with a bass oboe - whereas the tenor saxophone presents different advantages and strengths. Timbre is only one of many different factors.
@@OrchestrationOnline Hmmm...I understand and agree with your overall point, that different instruments present unique possibilities. What strikes a sour note with me though is the "depth of nuance" sort of statements.
Maybe it's because I'm a *jazz* saxophonist, and *classical* sax tends to be extremely confined to a specific and restrictive archetype, but I think there is literally not any instrument save the voice with a greater degree of flexibility/complexity with timbre/articulation/expressive devices than the tenor saxophone. (I'm mostly an alto player, btw - just noting that tenor is incredibly flexible).
Anyway I doubt you were trying to say anything derogatory about saxophones but you can understand why a saxophonist might be a little defensive about perceived criticism from the classical community.
@@lukasalihein And in fact I said nothing derogatory whatsoever about saxophones, concert or jazz. I should think that a saxophonist would be equally on board with the observation that, while there are some timbral similarities, saxophone and bass oboe are both quite distinct. I would as strongly object to an orchestra substituting a bass oboe in place of the tenor sax solos in Prokofiev as I would object to replacing the bass oboe solos in Holst with tenor sax.
Did you observe the promos at the end of the video? I'm about to release a second part to this educational series in a couple of weeks that included an in-depth study of saxophones. I would not be doing that if I had no respect for saxophone.And in my comment above I mention that saxophones have "different advantages and strengths." That isn't a put down. It is a reverence.
@@OrchestrationOnline Yeah, understood. I'm just saying you gotta be careful around us saxophonists who get all sensitive from being ignored/disparaged in the classical field. =)
This video is pure gold, finally some clarification, thanks a lot ❤️
Brilliant! Thank you. I appreciate your nuanced description of the interplay between voices and instrument models.
You're very welcome, Brenda!
Would you recommend scoring for a specific model of bass oboe, or to just write "bass oboe" and let the performers choose?
The safest approach is to simply ask for "Bass Oboe" and score no lower than written B3. Then it will be universal to all three models. Only specify a model if you KNOW FOR CERTAIN that model will be used - or if you've got enormous clout like Richard Strauss or something. :D
It's not really a Bass Voice like a Bass Guitar, it's really a Tenor Oboe in C & it's only an Octave below the C Soprano Oboe in range. English Horns (aka F Alto Oboes) now have an option to go down to Low Bb (or even lower than that down to Low F) in order to increase playability.
Thank you for this video. I had to explore the possibilities once I had made my own score and one low line was given to the oboe well outside the register of the oboe and the English horn. I had to do research on the heckelphone only to discover that orchestra’s did not always abide by what R. Strauss wrote when it came to instruments. I had to wonder what was done instead on for instance the score of Salome which had a heckelphone in the score.
BASS Oboe?
Now I've seen everything. 😸
Lovely instrument.
What a unique yet gorgeous sound!
If anyone's looking for a good side-by-side comparison of the different bass oboes, there's a chamber piece by Bret Newton called "The Death of Myrrdin" that's for Baritone Oboe, Heckelphone, and Bassoon. Granted, there's only one live recording of it, and the Heckelphone playing is a little rough, but it's probably the best side-by-side out there
Also, a quick little clarification of a minor detail: in September 2022, John McDougall received a new Lupophone with serial number #12, and when asked if more were being made he said "the workshop seems mostly occupied with bassoons, fagottini and contras at the moment". I think his instrument took about four years to make, so as much as I hate to say it, it could be a long time before we even hit two dozen. If I win the lottery, though, I promise I'll help make sure that number goes up
wow what a comprehensive video, thank you
Happy to see more AV courses comming! I just got Orchestration 101 a few days ago and I binged half of it in one sitting. I plan on taking MOOOC term 1 very soon. When can we expect more MOOOCs comming?
Let's see how the middle of the year goes. I have other AV courses coming this year as well - Audiation 101: Your Inner Music Workshop, and Sibelius 104: Orchestration Project.
6:17 - It sounds like he's playing "La Vie En Rose" even though it says "Rite of Spring".
Evidently, Mancini thought this, too. I just Googled the them and Mancini made something combining the two songs.
Update: Since 2023 exist a new family member called "Tenor Oboe" made by "Josef wind instruments" Japan. It is a new developement of the Bariton Oboe by Loree thats improve the sonority bringing it to the Dynamik level of a Heckelphon but with the playability of a cor anglais going down to the B flat and up easy to the a''. czcams.com/video/XNu5SMzpJqY/video.html
Recently succesfully used in the orchestra of Valencia instead of Heckelphon for "Salome"
That's so cool! I checked it out and it sounds great! Do you happen to have a recording of the Salome performance? Thanks!
There's actually a 4th variant of the bass oboe by Gebruder Mönnig known as the 'bass oboe', and it is a cross between the Lorée Hautbois Baryton and the Heckelphone- it has a maple body(though a grenadilla version is probably conceivable on request, as they also make German-style bass clarinets of similar lengths) and goes down to Low A, but has the smaller bore like the Lorée Baryton, with a unique huge flared bell like a clarinet. However like its 3 competitors the Mönnig bass oboe hasn't gained popularity yet.
The lupophone looks absolutely terrifying idk why
Too many keys-
It probably sounds amazing, but it looks intimidating af
I'm a simple man. I see Serbian, I upvote, even for a bird. Zdravo.
Bassoon: Am I a joke to you?
I love the lupophone alot now
Beautiful video, very thorough. Thank you! You earned a Subscribe :-)
This discussion leaves out the tenoroon, the small bassoon, as a bridge between the bassoon and oboe. I realize this is part of the topic of oboes, but since the discussion is couched in terms of bridging the bassoon//oboe gap it seems like passing mention should be given to the tenoroon.
Great video!
However you explain it with pictures which it helps us alot.thank you🌻
Astounding work, thanks much for the effort. Is Patreon or or your website the best way to see and support these videos? I doubt if I'll be needing the score analysis or the orchestration challenges much (I'm not that proficient), but these videos are so well done that I'm sure to get a lot out of them.
The lupophone sometimes seems to have a tone approaching a saxophone, but this seems less marked in the other basses. I wonder if this is because the loopophone goes into it's high range sooner. It looses the nasel part of its tone much like the basson does in the rite of Spring. I think that it might actually be worth specifiying hecklephone/lupophone in the score to get what you really want.
You have to sell a kidney and a lung to get one of those instrument!!!!!!!!!!!!! 🥶 😱 😨🥶 😱 😨
The point about players not wanting to play on a bass oboe... Why not? I feel a lot of people nowadays would love to try something new.
I answer that in the video. Often the instruments are in poor repair. They also require a lot of work to sound good on. It's not like a clarinetist easily adapting to the bass clarinet with a little practice. And the reeds are so much bigger. In fact, bassoonists are often called upon to play heckelphone, as the embouchure is more similar than with the smaller reeds of the oboe.
Plus you've got to somehow make or buy (!) reeds without knowing what each individual instrument needs. Expensive in terms of time and equipment as you might be looking at cane profiles and tool sizes you don't own and which could be hard to source or expensive in small quantities.
Wonderful!
Did one of these feature as the solo instrument in the castle from pictures at an exhibition? Though the part does get up quite high with a large range.. maybe it was an alto sax?
Hi Lily! It would be truly interesting to use bass oboe in the movement Il Vecchio Castello from Pictures. But the part is always played on alto saxophone.
That sounds like it can fill a tenor role among double reed in certain circumstances. I previously thought there was no tenor ranged double reed instrument but apparently there is, this is cool. I can also tell that while its timbre is similar to a saxophone, likely do to having a conical bore like the saxophone, the bore is not as conical and the double reed additional does make the timbre distinct, I'd love to see this instrument made more common. I believe with the right musician this instrument could really sing.
I feel that the bassoon has a great tenor register - while the bass oboe is a little harder to pin down. It doesn't have that urgency and sense of excitement as its range pushes upward the way that a tenor vocalist, tenor sax, cello, or bassoon does. It sits across the same tenor range comfortably rather than pushing so much. But there's no question that about the same length of bore is used for fundamental and overblown notes in both bassoon and bass oboe family members.
I was upvote #420!!
2:18 The Planets, Op 32, Saturn, the Bringer of Old Age - Gustav Holst (1916)
i want one
great resource
Great Video as always.
I really love these instruments.They look and sound fantastic.
Iirc Loree is still making a bass oboe but am curious about the reason that heckelophones are not produced anymore.
Heckel is still one of the most reputable brands after all.
Maybe the market is not big, but it still bugs me.
A few of the French companies make a bass oboe: Lorée, Rigoutat, Marigaux, and Fossati. Mönning also makes one out of maple that goes to a low A like a Heckelphone. Apparently the high demand for new Heckel bassoons and contrabassoons makes the waiting list between 6-10 years now, and there just weren't enough orders for Heckelphones to stop production long enough to make one anymore.
@@ThomasDawkins88 Thank you for your informative answer. It makes sense now.
I knew about these waiting times on bassons and cb bassons but never realised thats the reason for the ''discontinuation'' of heckelphones.
Oh and i just checked that Mönning bass oboe, looks like an interesting concept.I am curious tho, are these popular among pro players or is it just another rarity?
thanks again, Chris
@@Oblivion751 I've only ever met one person who owns a bass oboe. I think most are owned by orchestras or particularly opera companies in Europe that do Strauss.
Heckel's wait time is closer to 12 years now. They have not produced a Heckelphone since about 2006 because the one craftsman who worked on the instrument passed away. I have heard that they might start production again at some point, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
@@BretNewtonComposer If they're not going to make them, they should let another company buy the design.
Why is it that I’ve never heard of these instruments before, Ive seen many odd instruments but I’ve never seen this
Because they're rare as hell. Especially the lupophone.
They sound like what a classical saxophone is supposed to sound like - except that the bass oboes want to sound like that, and the saxophone must be forced to.
What are you talking about? I don’t “force” the saxophone to sound like that. In fact, playing with a characteristic tone is so easy and happens freely if you know what your doing. Don’t be making ignorant claims of which your obviously out of touch with reality. L
A Very interesting video, I enjoyed that very much. It’s just that any of these instruments are not only difficult to master, but as they are rare instruments, which makes them also Very expensive I should imagine...
Why does the oboe family have such a muffled sound compared to both other classical woodwinds and other non-classical double reed instruments? Is it the bulb-shaped bell?
COOL! THANKS
Is that a cable running from the upper joint of the Lupophone onto the bocal? What is its purpose?
Don’t see any mention of the purple oboe though...
Show muito bom vídeo
Get a few of them together and you could rule the world.
As a saxophone, clarinet and flute player, I have often wondered why the bass oboe, or one even lower, is not used instead of a bassoon. No disrespect intended toward the bassoon or its players. My point is that bassoon fingerings (whether Buffet or Heckel) are a disaster. I have seen the charts in Anthony Baines's excellent book "Woodwind Instruments And Their History". They are terrifying, and Baines says that certain unusual keys have to be pressed to make some notes sound right. The massive cluster of keys for the left thumb is very off-putting. It is not like adding a flute to the saxophone or clarinet in one's armory.
The regular oboe's fingerings are much simpler than those of the bassoons, and I presume that the fingerings for the bass oboe(s) are similar.
The instrument in the pic is a Heckelphon, not a bass oboe.
Watch the video. I define the baritone oboe (what you're calling a bass oboe), the Heckelphone, and the lupophone as members of the bass oboe family - as they are all of similar range and operation (while admittedly each having very individual features). The term "bass oboe" was an English-language categorisation of the Louree baritone oboe - but they also called the alto flute "bass flute" back in the day. The point is that an orchestra manager will hire and assign someone on any of the three available instruments without worrying about which specific one is called for in the score. So you see the Planets' "bass oboe" parts played on Heckelphone, and Alpensinfonie's Heckelphone parts played on lupophone (to get those low out-of-range F's). So really absorb all of this, and examine why I put a Heckelphone image in the thumbnail in the context of the information in the video, rather than judging everything strictly by its production name.
I never had issues with intonation on bass oboe when I've played. Im not sure where you get uour information st times
I get my information directly from the many players that I work with over the course of dozens of performances and projects - from talking to them and observing them. It's great to hear that you have no problems in your experience. That doesn't mean that no player has problems. Poor instrument maintenance, adapting to a reed size that's only played occasionally, and adjusting to a different scope of pitches can often be enough of a challenge to some players.
An excellent in-depth dive into the world of low oboes, but I must raise an issue: you use the terms "bass oboe" and "heckelphone" as if they are synonymous, and any professional oboist will tell you they are not. They aren't even the same instrument when you consider the similarities of bore construction with oboes and english horns. The Heckelphone is much more similar sounding to a saxophone because of it's bore, which isn't similar to that of the oboe and english horn. The bass oboe is much more closely related to the oboe because it's bore is much more similar to the oboe and english horn. While an over-simplification, that is the general accepted differentiation between the two instruments. Heckelphones do not blend well with an oboe choir; bass oboes do. You will note a distinct and obvious difference in tone and timber which is why most composers write specifically for one or the other. These two instruments are NOT interchangeable nor are they synonymous with each other.
Once again - I make the distinction clear that I am referring to bass oboes as a family of instruments at the beginning. It is actually a quirk of usage to refer to the baritone oboe as a "bass oboe" - but in another part of the course from which this is excerpted, I do also point out that the "bass oboe" as an instrument usually means the Hautbois Baryton of Lorée to a player. To the degree that all three of these instruments are interchangeable in their use for Strauss, Delius, Holst, and others, they are a family. The best term for that family is the simplest, and I feel I have made the necessary distinctions here.
As to your other points - I've heard heckelphone players blend seamlessly with oboes in performances of The Planets and in double reed quartets. And I've heard other not-so-blended teamups. What appears to me to be the main factor is whether the player is a specialist, and whether the instrument is in good working order. A heckelphone specialist can fatten or lighten their tone with a good reed, just like any other double reed player, though there's no debating that the heckelphone is a more intense instrument than a baritone oboe. But that doesn't mean they are so different as to not be categorised in the same family. No, they are not the same instrument. But yes, they of the same tuning, tone production, range (more or less), and register.
it kind of sounds like a tenor sax?
Great info ! Where would one go to buy a lupophone ?
The bass oboe sounds like the oboe mixed with the bassoon
Why is a heckelphone pictured? Bait and switch.
Watch the whole video and see how I define bass oboes as a category, and baritone oboe, hecklephone, and lupophone as the models. Yes, to many players, the terms "bass oboe" and "baritone oboe" are synonymous - but their proper name is "hautbois baryton" as produced by their French makers. So no bait and switch, rather a more precise classification. Any octave oboe can be classified as a bass.
If you could have English footnote on your videos,that make them more useful🌻🙏
the lower an oboe goes, the more it sounds like a bassoon...
Tabbbasco_sauce Indeed
Il n'y a pas de version en français ?
I would argue that Eppelsheim's Contraforte is actually a subcontrabass member of the oboe subfamily rather than of the contrabassoon family -- it has the smooth sound of an oboe, shifted to contrabassoon pitch, rather than the rough sound of a contrabassoon or even bassoon. If Eppelsheim would make a similar instrument at the pitch of the bassoon (Bassoforte?), we would have a full compass oboe family from 16'+ pitch all the way up to 2'-: Contraforte, Bassoforte, Lupophon, bass oboe, English horn, oboe d'amore, oboe', oboe musette/terz-heckelphon.
Wolf made one Bassoforte (and yes, that's what they called it), but it was not a successful instrument.
Bret Newton - Composer What went wrong with it?
@@Lucius_Chiaraviglio I can only speculate, but as an improved bassoon, it failed. The sound was almost saxophone-like.
Bret Newton - Composer Funny you should mention that -- the Contraforte, which seems to have achieved some success, but it doesn't sound like a contrabassoon, even though it sounds very good.
@@Lucius_Chiaraviglio it doesn't sound like a traditional contrabassoon, but the contrabassoon as we know it is really removed from a lot of bassoon-like tendencies in technique and in timbre, so the contraforte is probably equal to a contrabassoon at providing the octave below the bassoon.
I never knew about a bass oboe💀💀
Admittedly, I’m not so impressed with the sound of the lupophone, from this example at least. Some of that could be in the mic’ing though.
Great, But these instruments are not always available. They are also amazingly expensive and hard to acquire even if you have the funds.
Did you watch the end of the video? I address exactly that topic.
@@OrchestrationOnline Strangely my school had a Hecklephone. Just tryimg to buy a new Heckle Bassoon which used to be considered the top of the line is pretty difficult. Even if you have the money you need to know someone who knows someone. It's not quite as daunting as buying a big name violin or 'cello but it is close.
My daughter's bassoon teacher was SFSO principal Steve Paulson. One day he was browsing through a flea market, and there on a seller's table was a battered old bassoon case. He opened it, and there was a beat up ebony bassoon. Looking very closely at the maker's mark, he could see it was a Heckel. "How much?" he asked. "$85" they replied. He quietly paid the amount, took it home, fixed it up, and it's been in most his concerts since. It's an amazing instrument.
OrchestrationOnline
I went to school at Interlochen in Michigan for high school. For whatever reason it has produced an amazing number of bassoon players including the new principal of the Chicago Symphony. We had a very large and sometimes strange collection of instruments.
They arent that expensive. The Lupophone is actually very affordable in comparison with Hecklephones.
The Lupophone is just an alto saxophone with a richer sound and other physical modifications. Still wish saxes were added to the orchestra. 😔
Believe me, if that's all it was then the lupophone would be much easier to play. The player would be able to do subtones instead of having to work extra hard to control the lowest notes. The instrument would gain in power and clarity in its second octave instead of getting thinner. And they'd be able to shape a variety of timbres, everything from an English horn-type richness to trumpet-like fanfares to cool clarinet-like tones. THAT is what an alto saxophone can do. But that isn't a lupophone - which, while it doesn't have the same timbral flexibility as a saxophone, still can take what's unique about oboe technique and colour and play it with an unparalleled richness with no honkiness. It can also pinpoint staccato down to the most precise, individuated attack - something saxophone can approach but not exactly so pointy. And it can get the most subtle shades of nuance and inflection for an experienced player on a well-conditioned instrument with a great reed. Dismissing the lupophone would be a grievous error for anyone wanting to innovate with orchestral texture. It would be like saying that a Philly cheesesteak was just a kind of roast beef sandwich.
@@OrchestrationOnline ahh fair point, but still doesn’t excuse the fact saxes aren’t in the orchestra overall. Also, most non-musicians would say that this lupophone and the sax are practically the same, even though the clearly aren’t.
I just have a large bias for saxophones since they already aren’t in the orchestra, and lots of orchestral musicians overshadow them. I do like the distinct timbre of the lupophone though.
@@soph.r316 You won't find any resistance on my part to making saxophones regular members of the orchestra. Bring 'em on, I say - but while we're at it, let's also stock up on the bass oboes as well so that every pro orchestra has got something usable. Any family member will do (as much as I prefer the lupophone). Yes, I know that budgets will never allow for any of this, but I can still dream...
@@soph.r316 I love saxes so much that I made them a major part of my orchestration course (of which this video is just a chapter) - they get just as much time as clarinets, bassoons, flutes, and oboes. I was lucky to get a great player for the demos, though it was hard to source classical baritone sax solos.
@UCSt_ZRe_mla4tRgYC_GNElQ
It's really not a Bass Voice like a Bass Guitar. It's more of a Tenor Voice, as a result they've re-named it Tenor Oboe in C because the range is only an Octave below the C Soprano Oboe, & to take advantage of all the revived members of the Oboe Family, they've reassigned roles.
I think I've explained very thoroughly why this instrument is called "bass" - it's because it's the bass of the oboe family, and fulfils that function in grouped oboe scoring. It is a functional name, not a description of register.
@@OrchestrationOnline Bret Newton names the instrument by their register cause to take advantage of these additional members of the Oboe family, he re-assigns the role.
@@OrchestrationOnline Because its range is an Octave below a Standard Oboe (There are models that go down to Low Bb & even lower down to Low F to increase playability), anything written for Oboe can be played on this instrument too.
@@OrchestrationOnline Well the English Horn is more or less an F Alto Oboe (kinda like the F Alto Sax aka Mezzo-Sax) because of the register.
@@OrchestrationOnline I disagree the naming has gone under alot of updates so it's now
F Sopranino
Eb Sopranino
C Soprano
A Mezzo-Soprano
F Alto
C Tenor
F Baritone
C Bass
F Sub-Bass
C Contrabass (etc) because the range of the Oboe is exactally the same as the Sax. I call the Piccolo Oboe (aka Sopranino Oboe) the Baby Oboe cause it's really adorable.
1st instrument- piano. 2nd instrument- alto sax. 3rd instrument- Bassoon. 4th instrument- Lupophone? 🤔
Sorry? What was your point?
I would say that in tje last 25 years Oboe D'amore has WAAAAY more than jist a few thousand exaples. More inline with 10s or even a few hundred thousand.
English Horn has many hundreds of thousands.
Active players may be differwnt, but inlikely os too far off those numbers
i just use the telephone
that rite of spring solo sounded so bad lol
Yeah. The takeaway, if you were watching the caveat in the previous heckelphone excerpt, is that players must struggle with instruments in poor repair. Reeds are usually left over from previous sessions - rarely built from scratch to the specifics of a player's embouchure. So it's really some heavy lifting, especially up there at the place where bassoon and bass oboe really become virtually the same instrument in terms of bore length and reed.
Sound like a basson’s sound
Honestly it sounds pretty identical to a bassoon
Not to me. I find it to be much more nasal in the low end where the bassoon is rich and throaty, mellow and heartfelt in the middle register where the bassoon gets pale and thin; but in the high register (as I commented) the instruments are essentially the same bit of piping with similar reeds, so I grant you that.
Bass oboe vs bass clarinet
Mmmmhm bass clarinet
There is no versus. There is only the right instrument in the right place at the right time. :)
OrchestrationOnline true
@@OrchestrationOnline It's really a Tenor Oboe (range is only an Octave below the C Soprano Oboe) because it has more of a Tenor Voice. The naming of the Oboe Family has been updated to
F Sopranino
Eb Sopranino
C Soprano
A Mezzo-Soprano
F Alto
C Tenor
F Baritone
C Bass
F Sub-Bass
C Contrabass (etc) because over the years they've reassigned the instruments to take advantage of them.
Why is this recommended to me? 🤣 I'm a trumpet player lmao 😂
The management of this channel takes no responsibility for the mysterious ways of CZcams...
Ron Com same I play clarinet and bassoon...
Kendyll Campi You play my two favorite instruments.
Why make a bass oboe when bassoon was really the bass oboe all along?
*sigh* ;-) Read the pinned post...
Old_Time_Fun_With_Disney How many times do I have to say this, the bassoon is not an oboe.
Sounds like bassoon to me
God that Mars was so slow
That's actually the half-time section in which the meter changes in value from 5/4 to 5/2 - so that's a pretty average tempo by the standard of quite a few performances.
so an alto bassoon
Not at all. Go listen to a quint bassoon, quart bassoon, or fagottino - actual tenor and alto bassoon models. They sound nothing like this. The whole point of the bass oboe is to get a very nasal, rich sound that's unlike a bassoon (which is why the instrument design is so different).
I still think their high registers sound fairly different lol😂
Just a little.
The bass oboe sounds exactly like the saxophone
Not exactly, but close. The difference is enough to where if you were to replace bass oboe in The Planet with tenor saxophone, you'd immediately think of a sax and not an oboe. The similarity is enough to where it can suggest different approaches and resources in your own scoring.
OrchestrationOnline It doesn't sound like a sax at all to me. I feel weird since so many are saying it does.
Lost
The bass oboe AKA the bassoon
Not at all. Not any more than the bass trumpet is a trombone. It's not. Neither is the bass oboe a kind of bassoon. Watch the video.
@@OrchestrationOnline but they're both conical bored double reeds so they must be the same.
John Wakefield The bassoon is not an oboe
Lol I immediately recognized Mars
not mentioning the bassoon gives a thumb down
You didn't watch the video, did you? I mention the bassoon not once but several times: 1:20, 1:35, 2:03, 4:30, 5:25, and an extended section comparing the upper registers of both instruments at 5:51.
bass oboe is just a basson pls dont kill me
окурки.mp4 The bassoon is its own instrument, not an oboe.