Another part of a video series from Wordonfire.org. Bishop Barron will be commenting on subjects from modern day culture. For more visit www.wordonfire.org/
"But, even Osama BinLaden, is our brother. Even this great enemy of the human race is our brother and therefore he has to be loved." The sermon on the mound. No more radical of an idea has ever been uttered by anyone in human history.
Does not the Book of Ecclesiastes say: to everything there is a season, and a time for everything under the sun....a time for war...a time to kill....a time to hate?
@JDNWF66 I completely agree with you: that's why several times I called him "wicked." I don't know how I could have been any clearer on that score. But Jesus told us to love our enemies. I agree that he was our enemy, but we have to love our enemies.
Did Jesus love Judas, good Bishop? Did not Jesus say that it would have been better had Judas not been born? Did not Jesus say to those who caused the children to lose faith, that it'd be better if they had millstones tied around their necks, and be thrown into the sea? Did not Jesus say that not all who call on Him "Lord, Lord" will inherit eternal life? Are those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit forgiven? Does God love Satan? It would appear that even God Himself says that there are those unworthy of unconditional love.
Father, I am glad I discovered your videos. The message in this particular one is something I have always been taught since I was a child. Thus, I can never celebrate a death out of anger or rage. Only sympathise for that person, and sometimes pray.
I'm with you on this one, Fr. Barron. I think it was right to prevent him from perpetrating more evil by what appears was the only means possible. However, I did think that cheering this event brought us down somewhat from the moral high ground. A great silence befalling the land at news of his death may have been more appropriate.
If we are Catholic we believe God loves all sinners and Jesus died for all sinners. We believe He wants all to convert and live with Him in eternity. So if Bin Laden's sins prevented him from reaching heaven, his death robbed him of the chance to convert and robbed Jesus of yet another adopted son. So when Bin Laden was killed, it's likely Jesus wept. So we shouldn't celebrate. We should pray to comfort our Maker and how that Bin Laden may only be in purgatory and may yet reach heaven
+Clare-Elizabeth Biakaramire We are called not to judge that Bin Laden is in hell. However, Proverbs 11:10 instructs us it is certainly appropriate to celebrate his death.
+Mary Dobbs That does not mean that there is no truth to it. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Jesus did not weep because Osama was killed by righteous sword. Jesus wept because Osama, & 1.6 Billion Muslims, refuse to acknowledge Jesus is the Divine Son of God the Father, the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Triune God, whose sacrificial death on the cross restored humanity from its fallen state. That's why Jesus wept.
@wordonfirevideo That was a brave thing to say and I admire your fortitude in your position. It is indeed hard to love in situations like this but all I can say is that you've impressed me deeply, father.
@mhoowen But friend, Catholic doctrine is that Purgatory exists. As long as someone might be in that state, prayers for him or her are altogether valid.
Fr. Barron covered exactly what you are saying there in his vid on Faith Hope and Love (additional commentary) "....You don't have to be nice all the time but you can love, you can will the good of the other..." - Praying for another is the highest form of doing them good. - Rene
there's a story as recorded in only a few lines by william camden about a cruel medieval knight. the man was evil in his treatment of those who worked for him, and more evil to those who opposed him, yet, one day, riding his horse, his horse stumbled and he broke his neck, but he was heard to say before he hit ground, Lord have mercy. Camden says this was written on his tomb stone: Between the stirrup and the ground, mercy i asked, mercy i found. may it be true for bin laden and all of us.
That knight will probably have to do 1,000,000 years in purgatory to make reparation for all his cruelty & wickedness & iniquity. And it won't be pleasant, neither.
Powerful commentary, Fr. Barron! "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly...But God commended his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." - Romans 5:6 and 8
first: congratulations for tackling such current and such difficult issues second: congratulations, maybe for the first time i completly agree with you the difficult-to-live paradox of enemy-love is a corner stone of christianity
I totally agree with Fr. Barron. I will go the step further and say, people who pray for death and delight in the suffering of those they class as evil are no better than those they accuse. They are removed of their humanity. And I say this from a secularist stand point.
It may be beyond us as individuals to love and forgive Bin Laden. However, we can and should always turn to prayer and ask God for his guidance and put it into his hands. God being so much stronger, wiser, better than us. Turn it over to God when we are too weak.
@JDNWF66 Thank you for your thoughtful response. I did not intend to lead us from the primary topic of discussion, but I have often been torn between my Christian sense of spiritual "obligation" (Romans 1:14f) to my fellow human beings, and (on the other hand) my realization that so many of these who supposedly don't know Christ seem much better acquainted with Him than I.
Reading the Bible without any context or correct interpretation can easily provide a similarly horrific misunderstanding. Islam is clearly not a cult. The fact that the prophet considered that he might be demonically possessed is not a point against him: how would you react if you started hearing voices in your head? Today we would simply think we were mad; back then, demons were the equivalent conclusion. They are a dignified faith, and deserve respect.
This is a very interesting video on the love of one's enemies which I understand and accept. But why has the Church left if until OSM's death before expressing these sentiments? A bit late to show brotherly love to an enemey once he's been killed is it not? Why didn't we hear more of this whilst OSM was alive? May I also ask whether it was morally justified, in the eyes of the Church, for an unarmed man (OSM) to be gunned down? What does the Pope think about this? Paul
Pray, bless, love our enemies are noble actions for any Christian. Perhaps an enemy will recognize that those they oppress and kill actually love them, and that this will somehow pacify their hatred. Even if it does not transform an enemy into a brother or sister in Christ, we as Christians should listen to what Fr. Barron is reminding us about (for our own sake).
glad you commented on this father. i couldn't help but feel very bizarre as people celebrated the gunning down of a man. to me what would have seemed right was a solemn prayer, for bin laden perhaps, but mostly against the evil in our world that exists.
I agree with you Fr Barron and sadly enough I was looking for that moment when you acknowledged there is a place and time for justice or even more so lethal action.
So, Father Barron, what do you make of the faith of that Amish couple to which you referred? They are obviously completely cut off from apostolic succession; yet, they seem to have the Holy Spirit. Help us to understand why, on the one hand, we should remain united to the apostolic orthodox/catholic church, and on the other hand,
We cannot say what happens to any individual soul because we do not know the state of any soul in life or at death. That is only known to God and so we pray that any soul may receive the mercy of God as we believe God is our loving father. BUT and it is an important BUT God will not be mocked forever and we must give warning that if a soul depises Grace all its life, rejects Gods love by its free will, loves wickedness and hates the gospels then at death it will only meet Gods justice.
Every one deserves mercy and forgiveness while on earth because were forgive of our crimes against God and each other. I am not particularly into celebrating the death of another. However, once he is dead there is no point in continuing praying he is in Gods hands
Not everyone gets specialized training in the arts of war, but I was conditioned to use deadly force without emotion. Emotions cloud judgement. They are often a good initial indication of reaction, but total reliance on emotions leads to poor decisions. The intellect, though, is good at making sure actions are taken within morally justifiable means. I always prayed for the mercy of my enemies' soul or a pre-emptive change of will. Though they died at my hand, I don't wish them damnation.
Thank you Fr. Barron for your comments. As far as heroic forgiveness, don't forget Blessed John Paul II's visit to his would-be assassin in prison. May God have mercy on Osama Bin Laden. (If I may, could you do a vid. like your "Faith Seeks Understanding" series that answers the question, "Who created God?" The 1st video of the series does well, but I was wondering how to answer my (CCD) 4th graders question in a more direct manner. Or, will you be need Baltimore next Sunday around 9:30? ;) )
Osama was a devout Muslim, which meant that Osama denies the divinity of Christ, denies the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Trinity, denies that God the Father has a Son, denies the Cruxification & Death of Jesus, and thereby denies the Resurrection of Jesus, without which our faith is in vain, according to St. Paul. It would appear to me that Osama was blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which Jesus Himself said is unforgiveable.
I agree with and like Fr Barrons vids but the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man clearly tells us that once your dead, the book is closed! All prayer that he become free from evil and/or brought to justice need cease at death. Other wise it would be like praying your favourite team win the match after the game is over and it has lost.
I can never forgive my enemies.(even when I was a Christian) The only thing that would make me feel better is to make them feel every ounce of pain they cause me as they slowly drift in and out of consciousness. I know that sounds kinda dark and brutal but I don't let crime go unpunished.
I'm glad he's no longer a danger to anyone. However when I saw people chanting USA in the streets, the only image that came to mind were the images of the chanting of his supporters on 9/11. Each bout of celebration was preceded by the death of a hell of a lot of innocent people.
Not to be the Devil's advocate, but that picture posted as Americans celebrating the end of WWII could have been Germans celebrating their country getting ready to defeat Russia.
Except that America did not send 6,000,000 of God's chosen people to the death camps. You are not the Devil's advocate, but more like the Devil's useful idiot. Wake up, Brother!
Fr Baron, good points. But if we look at the sermon on the mount, we are commanded by Our Lord to "pray for those who persecute" us...present tense. Meaning, I would think, we pray for their conversion and for them to stop doing evil. But if OBL is in now in hell, (and this is a big if, since only God knows this) then all the prayers of the most righteous saints on earth and heaven will not help him.
@JDNWF66 You will pray for your enemies, only not for evil men? Is that what Jesus tells you to do, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, but only if they are not evil?
@MrElyBlack I understand your reasoning, but the main thing I was trying to express was the fact that, because OBL presented a clear danger to society, it falls to peacekeepers like SEAL Team 6 to do their duty in dispatching him. But don't misunderstand me, I know well that OBL is a special case, in which the action that was taken was pretty much the only action left to be taken. In that way, I'd say that the Just War Theory applies. Being Catholic does not denote a mandatory pacifism.
I don't believe that Purgatory is like school detention. ie it's not subject to 4dimensional space/time. For example the thief on the cross underwent purgatory on the cross and maybe at death it was finalised, but Jesus gave him absolution when he said "Verily I say unto you, you will be with me in paradise this day." If Jesus says that to you I'm confident you are in a very good position. Still love you and love your vids, You rock! Especially loved the one about hell.
And this takes us to the Catholic principle of the "Just War Theory". Their are times where CIVIL GOVERNMENT has a right to defend their nation as matter of security or survival. Not human beings to go around with swords and just slaughter innocence.
@MrElyBlack And just to be even more clear, I agree with Fr Barron. I don't condone CELEBRATING his death. In addition, I think it is correct that we pray for OBL, and not hate him, but his actions. That said, it is a good thing that he is now permanently removed from any opportunity to hurt the innocent ever again. That much is clear.
warden phil My good friend, quite the opposite. Fr. Barron clearly said Bin Ladin SHOULD be brought to justice and SHOULD be held accountable for the monstrosities he committed. Now, it is quite hard to pray for someone who clearly deserved the worst, but as Catholics, more broadly Christians, we shouldn't celebrate his death and pray for his soul. Praying for those who maltreat you lets you discover the love of Christ in a way that is enigmatic and allows you to be free from hatred, by the grace of God of course. great question, by the way, man. hope this answer helps a little bit.
A few people I knew were excited that he died but I just didn't see the reason to get excited. Most of the reason for that was it has been so long since Sep. 11 so maybe if he died soon after that I would react differently but it has been long enough that I just felt sorry for the guy, I'm glad justice was done but in the end he was just a confused sad old man that was probably brainwashed as a child.
I don't have the authority to say whether or not God was able to forgive him, but his moral status was enough in doubt that I absolutely commend the SEALs who took him out. Too much evidence existed that pointed to him committing mass murder again in the future. To that end: "It's God's job to forgive Bin Laden. It's the SEAL's job to arrange the meeting."
I really like you Bishop and im a fan and No Muslim celebrates Usama Bin Ladin's death. He killed innocent and whoever kills an innocent is like if he has killed all humans....Bin Laden was trained by the same American Generals who dropped bombed on Japan (which is worng as per christian rules of engagement). A Fake idea of Jihad was introduced by secular US policiy makers to bring people to fight and defeat russians in Afghanistan. And then all this back fired and countries like pakistan are suffering where our young generation was given guns instead of books. In islam Jihad means the same as in christianity which has specific rules of engagement. All these people who stood up in last couple of deacdes were actually helping evil by using the religions and unfortunately a term "jihad" from islam was misused.... May God Protect us and let us see the truth.....
Jihad of Islam and the Just War Theories of St. Augustine & St. Thomas Aquinas, which is taught by the Catholic Church are NO WHERE NEAR THE SAME! It is perfectly permissible, in Jihad, to take female captives as sex slaves. It is perfectly permissible, in Jihad, to directly & deliberately slaughter children. It is perfectly permissible, in Jihad, to sue the enemy for peace, but break the peace agreement when the Jihad side is strong. You are sadly mistake, son of Ishmael. Repent from your worship of the false god of the moon and his pedophile prophet.
@Alexthegreat8907 The Crusades were a little more complicated than that, and to imply that they're comparable to the acts Osama directed strikes me as disingenuous. The same applies to the Spanish Inquisition, if that's the particular inquisition you're referring to. As for religion causing most of this world's tragedies, that's just not true, and I get so tired of hearing people repeating it again and again as if it was fact! (not meant to be an attack on you, I just get frustrated -_-' )
there is one thing i must add which will probably be judged by americans You say justice is served. Ok. What do you think this man and entire movement of al'qaida fought for? Does anyone even ask that question. They all fought in the name of their brothers and comrades who died in the middle east from western supported allies. Does anyone give justice to them? Justice is never served.
Sorry, Bishop, but you are way off base and it is just one more example of why people are leaving the church in droves. Thank God you have never had to experience the end results of terrorism and murder first hand. If you had to handle the bodies of those who have been killed you might see this much differently. It's nice to try to be compassionate, but Jesus also said "I did not come to bring peace, but the sword." Catholicism has been drawn so far left in recent years that it is truly sad.
If a person kills your child, you don't love them. You must destroy it. This type of extended uncaring about justice (falsely said to be "love") ought to be stopped by Christians. When you see evil, end it (i.e., don't love it).
I cannot believe , unless self defense or in war, that any1 has a right to take a life. What turns my stomach is how some countries including obviously yours Bishop- Take a persons life when their is the option of life in prison. I think its more about revenge.
+Dave P Out of all the substantial and loving things that Bishop Barron spoke about all you have to contribute to the discussion is an attack on his faith?
2.5 MILLION DISAGREE SO UR A 1 MAN ARMY..GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FALSE PRECEPTIONS...OR ARE YOU HATEFUL AND SPOUTING ANGER ANYWAYS..You should speak to some1 in your local parish...by the way many have attacked-NONE can overcome, NO CRIMINAL GROUP COULD LAST 2000 YEARS,and the Holy Spirit does not guide criminals..-GOD IS GREAT
Europe has had many dominant religions over the millennia. Christianity is hardly dying out, it's just that there are more Muslims here now. That isn't a bad thing: Islam is on of the closest religions to Christianity there is, and it certainly isn't a bad one.
Fr. Robert Barron If Bin Laden was pointing the gun at you it is clear that you say you have the right to pull the trigger of your gun first but then the difficult dilemma that follows.. "I had the right to pull the trigger but I can't agree with the moral substance of it" - so how would we learn from that for the next time. "I have the right to pull the trigger but I know if I do I won't be able to agree to the moral substance of it" so the question? Would you pull the trigger? Two likely outcomes I think, !) You say no and then get shot and die or 2) You pull the trigger first thereby allowing you to continue to say that you had the right to pull the trigger but that you still can't agree to the moral substance of it. It is interesting to note that the ability to keep preaching is only based on pulling the trigger first.
splotsplot Maybe what Fr. Robert Barron is saying is that we should love everyone regardless of their ethnicity, actions or moral beliefs. Fr. Barron did not say that we have the right to pull the trigger and kill rather than we have a right to defend ourselves and one another. Defending does not nessesarily mean to exterminate the problem but from stopping it to make further damage. So going back to your trigger situation, if I have the upper hand to pull the trigger, my intentions "should" be to wound or per se create a situation where both sides can continue to live. Now thats an example of a 1 on 1 situation. If I as a by-stander do nothing to stop the situation then im supporting it. If people during WW2 did not intervene to protect those persectuted because of their ethnicity and moral values then they would be supporting it. The idea is to create an environment where good and bad people can live on without killing each other. Your trigger first ideaology is flawd when you put a rational thinking individual at one end.
Your point is a good one. The original argument to not highlight the concept of pulling a trigger to wound or immobilise is important. The normal interpretation of pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger is to give a fatal blow. However it was also stated that the immoral act was just the "pulling of the trigger" which also covers a wounding situation. It just shows you how when discussing these points the details are very important.
@JDNWF66 Absoloutely evil. I think a strong case could be made that he was one of the most evil men in history. But you cannot call God your Father if you do not call everyone, including bin Laden, your brother. He was brought into existence by the breath of God, as we were and that makes him our brother. IMO, it's a very hard thing to pray for those who wish us such tremendous harm. For myself, I found the strength to pray for bin Laden not for love of him, but for love of Christ. (con't)
Father Barron, I have enjoyed your perspective on things for quite some time. I am a loyal Roman Catholic and a real fan of First Things (especially under the founder). But I really have to say that you have listened to the popular consensus, which is very dubious IMHO. Osama Bin Laden put himself last among his brethren, including food. He was sacrificial toward his followers. It is hearsay that he engineered the 9-11 tragedy. So-called finding of video tapes attributed to him by our government have been convincingly debunked as fraudulent; it was not really him at all. Bin Laden was a self-sacrificing prophet. He did not threaten the Navy Seals. His wife and children had to witness the Seals blowing OBL's head apart. They will never recover from that trauma. We cannot, as Christians, be so callous as to what when down. They took what was left of his body and dumped it into the sea. It was not a courteous burial in the least. We Americans have more to fear from neo-cons than a very sick and dying adversary. What was troubling to me was that the manufactured story line has been accepted as fact. In some ways OBL was a prognosticator of the callous villainy of the always-expanding march toward world domination by American leadership.
"But, even Osama BinLaden, is our brother. Even this great enemy of the human race is our brother and therefore he has to be loved." The sermon on the mound. No more radical of an idea has ever been uttered by anyone in human history.
agreed
Does not the Book of Ecclesiastes say: to everything there is a season, and a time for everything under the sun....a time for war...a time to kill....a time to hate?
So hard to do but you are correct Father Barron.
@JDNWF66 I completely agree with you: that's why several times I called him "wicked." I don't know how I could have been any clearer on that score. But Jesus told us to love our enemies. I agree that he was our enemy, but we have to love our enemies.
Did Jesus love Judas, good Bishop? Did not Jesus say that it would have been better had Judas not been born? Did not Jesus say to those who caused the children to lose faith, that it'd be better if they had millstones tied around their necks, and be thrown into the sea? Did not Jesus say that not all who call on Him "Lord, Lord" will inherit eternal life? Are those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit forgiven? Does God love Satan? It would appear that even God Himself says that there are those unworthy of unconditional love.
Great video father ! we must pray for our enemies
"I (God) do not rejoice in the death of the wicked".
Father, I am glad I discovered your videos. The message in this particular one is something I have always been taught since I was a child. Thus, I can never celebrate a death out of anger or rage. Only sympathise for that person, and sometimes pray.
I'm with you on this one, Fr. Barron. I think it was right to prevent him from perpetrating more evil by what appears was the only means possible. However, I did think that cheering this event brought us down somewhat from the moral high ground. A great silence befalling the land at news of his death may have been more appropriate.
If we are Catholic we believe God loves all sinners and Jesus died for all sinners. We believe He wants all to convert and live with Him in eternity. So if Bin Laden's sins prevented him from reaching heaven, his death robbed him of the chance to convert and robbed Jesus of yet another adopted son. So when Bin Laden was killed, it's likely Jesus wept. So we shouldn't celebrate. We should pray to comfort our Maker and how that Bin Laden may only be in purgatory and may yet reach heaven
+Clare-Elizabeth Biakaramire We are called not to judge that Bin Laden is in hell. However, Proverbs 11:10 instructs us it is certainly appropriate to celebrate his death.
Proverbs is not the new testament Jesus brought us.
+Mary Dobbs That does not mean that there is no truth to it. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Jesus did not weep because Osama was killed by righteous sword. Jesus wept because Osama, & 1.6 Billion Muslims, refuse to acknowledge Jesus is the Divine Son of God the Father, the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Triune God, whose sacrificial death on the cross restored humanity from its fallen state. That's why Jesus wept.
@wordonfirevideo That was a brave thing to say and I admire your fortitude in your position. It is indeed hard to love in situations like this but all I can say is that you've impressed me deeply, father.
You are so wise Bishop. You are definitely one of my most favorite people.
Your comments are always balanced and logical, Father Barron. Thank you again.
Makes me think of pope john paul 2 with his attempted assassin.
Thanks for the inspiration to love my enemies.
@mhoowen But friend, Catholic doctrine is that Purgatory exists. As long as someone might be in that state, prayers for him or her are altogether valid.
Fr. Barron covered exactly what you are saying there in his vid on Faith Hope and Love (additional commentary) "....You don't have to be nice all the time but you can love, you can will the good of the other..." - Praying for another is the highest form of doing them good. - Rene
I was very relieved when your "however" came along.
A 'hard teaching' but a most worthy one. Thank you, Father.
there's a story as recorded in only a few lines by william camden about a cruel medieval knight. the man was evil in his treatment of those who worked for him, and more evil to those who opposed him, yet, one day, riding his horse, his horse stumbled and he broke his neck, but he was heard to say before he hit ground, Lord have mercy. Camden says this was written on his tomb stone: Between the stirrup and the ground, mercy i asked, mercy i found. may it be true for bin laden and all of us.
That knight will probably have to do 1,000,000 years in purgatory to make reparation for all his cruelty & wickedness & iniquity. And it won't be pleasant, neither.
Powerful commentary, Fr. Barron!
"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly...But God commended his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." - Romans 5:6 and 8
first: congratulations for tackling such current and such difficult issues
second: congratulations, maybe for the first time i completly agree with you
the difficult-to-live paradox of enemy-love is a corner stone of christianity
Wonderfully said.
what do you say Father on the subtle difference in the vulgate between "inimicos" and "hostes"?
"No man is an island entire of itself....any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind..." Meditation XVII by John Donne
I totally agree with Fr. Barron. I will go the step further and say, people who pray for death and delight in the suffering of those they class as evil are no better than those they accuse. They are removed of their humanity. And I say this from a secularist stand point.
Thank you for approaching a titular ethical problem of loving those whom we most deeply fear.
@zztstenglish One of the most amazing acts done in our Church's history.
@wordonfirevideo Interesting, do all souls spend time in purgatory? Or are some condemned to hell from the moment of death?
Right on the mark as usual.
this is really good father Barron I enjoy listening too this
Father- A bit more gain. Your videos don’t have quit the same levels of volume that others do.
Thanks.
God bless you Bishop
It may be beyond us as individuals to love and forgive Bin Laden. However, we can and should always turn to prayer and ask God for his guidance and put it into his hands. God being so much stronger, wiser, better than us. Turn it over to God when we are too weak.
@JDNWF66 Thank you for your thoughtful response. I did not intend to lead us from the primary topic of discussion, but I have often been torn between my Christian sense of spiritual "obligation" (Romans 1:14f) to my fellow human beings, and (on the other hand) my realization that so many of these who supposedly don't know Christ seem much better acquainted with Him than I.
Truth.
Reading the Bible without any context or correct interpretation can easily provide a similarly horrific misunderstanding. Islam is clearly not a cult. The fact that the prophet considered that he might be demonically possessed is not a point against him: how would you react if you started hearing voices in your head? Today we would simply think we were mad; back then, demons were the equivalent conclusion. They are a dignified faith, and deserve respect.
This is a very interesting video on the love of one's enemies which I understand and accept. But why has the Church left if until OSM's death before expressing these sentiments? A bit late to show brotherly love to an enemey once he's been killed is it not? Why didn't we hear more of this whilst OSM was alive? May I also ask whether it was morally justified, in the eyes of the Church, for an unarmed man (OSM) to be gunned down? What does the Pope think about this?
Paul
@zztstenglish Me neither, but that's what makes it so special.
What I thought he'd say would be "Osama bin Laden was created in God's image, he merely went down the evil path and defiled that image".
I find this is the sentiment that I've been carrying around but am afraid to say in public.
Pray, bless, love our enemies are noble actions for any Christian. Perhaps an enemy will recognize that those they oppress and kill actually love them, and that this will somehow pacify their hatred. Even if it does not transform an enemy into a brother or sister in Christ, we as Christians should listen to what Fr. Barron is reminding us about (for our own sake).
glad you commented on this father. i couldn't help but feel very bizarre as people celebrated the gunning down of a man. to me what would have seemed right was a solemn prayer, for bin laden perhaps, but mostly against the evil in our world that exists.
I agree with you Fr Barron and sadly enough I was looking for that moment when you acknowledged there is a place and time for justice or even more so lethal action.
So, Father Barron, what do you make of the faith of that Amish couple to which you referred? They are obviously completely cut off from apostolic succession; yet, they seem to have the Holy Spirit. Help us to understand why, on the one hand, we should remain united to the apostolic orthodox/catholic church, and on the other hand,
We cannot say what happens to any individual soul because we do not know the state of any soul in life or at death. That is only known to God and so we pray that any soul may receive the mercy of God as we believe God is our loving father. BUT and it is an important BUT God will not be mocked forever and we must give warning that if a soul depises Grace all its life, rejects Gods love by its free will, loves wickedness and hates the gospels then at death it will only meet Gods justice.
Every one deserves mercy and forgiveness while on earth because were forgive of our crimes against God and each other. I am not particularly into celebrating the death of another. However, once he is dead there is no point in continuing praying he is in Gods hands
Is it wrong to celebrate the change that the individual's death may bring about?
Not everyone gets specialized training in the arts of war, but I was conditioned to use deadly force without emotion. Emotions cloud judgement. They are often a good initial indication of reaction, but total reliance on emotions leads to poor decisions. The intellect, though, is good at making sure actions are taken within morally justifiable means.
I always prayed for the mercy of my enemies' soul or a pre-emptive change of will. Though they died at my hand, I don't wish them damnation.
Father, can you speak about Alan Watts?
Jesse Yes, Watts’ mysticism is very close to me, and not only me, but to a lot of people. And I say that as an orthodox christian
Very difficult Bishop
Thank you Fr. Barron for your comments.
As far as heroic forgiveness, don't forget Blessed John Paul II's visit to his would-be assassin in prison.
May God have mercy on Osama Bin Laden.
(If I may, could you do a vid. like your "Faith Seeks Understanding" series that answers the question, "Who created God?" The 1st video of the series does well, but I was wondering how to answer my (CCD) 4th graders question in a more direct manner. Or, will you be need Baltimore next Sunday around 9:30? ;) )
Osama was a devout Muslim, which meant that Osama denies the divinity of Christ, denies the 2nd Person of the Most Holy Trinity, denies that God the Father has a Son, denies the Cruxification & Death of Jesus, and thereby denies the Resurrection of Jesus, without which our faith is in vain, according to St. Paul. It would appear to me that Osama was blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which Jesus Himself said is unforgiveable.
I agree with and like Fr Barrons vids but the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man clearly tells us that once your dead, the book is closed! All prayer that he become free from evil and/or brought to justice need cease at death. Other wise it would be like praying your favourite team win the match after the game is over and it has lost.
I can never forgive my enemies.(even when I was a Christian) The only thing that would make me feel better is to make them feel every ounce of pain they cause me as they slowly drift in and out of consciousness. I know that sounds kinda dark and brutal but I don't let crime go unpunished.
I'm glad he's no longer a danger to anyone. However when I saw people chanting USA in the streets, the only image that came to mind were the images of the chanting of his supporters on 9/11. Each bout of celebration was preceded by the death of a hell of a lot of innocent people.
Not to be the Devil's advocate, but that picture posted as Americans celebrating the end of WWII could have been Germans celebrating their country getting ready to defeat Russia.
Except that America did not send 6,000,000 of God's chosen people to the death camps. You are not the Devil's advocate, but more like the Devil's useful idiot. Wake up, Brother!
Fr Baron, good points. But if we look at the sermon on the mount, we are commanded by Our Lord to "pray for those who persecute" us...present tense. Meaning, I would think, we pray for their conversion and for them to stop doing evil. But if OBL is in now in hell, (and this is a big if, since only God knows this) then all the prayers of the most righteous saints on earth and heaven will not help him.
@JDNWF66 You will pray for your enemies, only not for evil men? Is that what Jesus tells you to do, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, but only if they are not evil?
Yessir
@MrElyBlack I understand your reasoning, but the main thing I was trying to express was the fact that, because OBL presented a clear danger to society, it falls to peacekeepers like SEAL Team 6 to do their duty in dispatching him. But don't misunderstand me, I know well that OBL is a special case, in which the action that was taken was pretty much the only action left to be taken. In that way, I'd say that the Just War Theory applies.
Being Catholic does not denote a mandatory pacifism.
IN SHORT.. DON'T LEVEL YOURSELF ON WICKED PEOPLE
I don't believe that Purgatory is like school detention. ie it's not subject to 4dimensional space/time. For example the thief on the cross underwent purgatory on the cross and maybe at death it was finalised, but Jesus gave him absolution when he said "Verily I say unto you, you will be with me in paradise this day." If Jesus says that to you I'm confident you are in a very good position. Still love you and love your vids, You rock! Especially loved the one about hell.
EVEN HIS OUR ENEMY, WE MOST STILL RESPECT THE DEATH OF THAT PERSON.. JUST SAY REST IN PEACE, BURIED HIM AND GO.. REMOVE THAT EVIL IN YOUR HEART
And this takes us to the Catholic principle of the "Just War Theory". Their are times where CIVIL GOVERNMENT has a right to defend their nation as matter of security or survival. Not human beings to go around with swords and just slaughter innocence.
I feel that the sailors who prayed for bin laden were hypocrites
@MrElyBlack And just to be even more clear, I agree with Fr Barron. I don't condone CELEBRATING his death. In addition, I think it is correct that we pray for OBL, and not hate him, but his actions.
That said, it is a good thing that he is now permanently removed from any opportunity to hurt the innocent ever again. That much is clear.
Father Barron, regardless of whether or not we "savor the moment" of Bin Ladin's death, are you arguing we should NOT have killed him?
warden phil My good friend, quite the opposite. Fr. Barron clearly said Bin Ladin SHOULD be brought to justice and SHOULD be held accountable for the monstrosities he committed. Now, it is quite hard to pray for someone who clearly deserved the worst, but as Catholics, more broadly Christians, we shouldn't celebrate his death and pray for his soul. Praying for those who maltreat you lets you discover the love of Christ in a way that is enigmatic and allows you to be free from hatred, by the grace of God of course. great question, by the way, man. hope this answer helps a little bit.
A few people I knew were excited that he died but I just didn't see the reason to get excited. Most of the reason for that was it has been so long since Sep. 11 so maybe if he died soon after that I would react differently but it has been long enough that I just felt sorry for the guy, I'm glad justice was done but in the end he was just a confused sad old man that was probably brainwashed as a child.
I don't have the authority to say whether or not God was able to forgive him, but his moral status was enough in doubt that I absolutely commend the SEALs who took him out. Too much evidence existed that pointed to him committing mass murder again in the future.
To that end:
"It's God's job to forgive Bin Laden. It's the SEAL's job to arrange the meeting."
I really like you Bishop and im a fan and No Muslim celebrates Usama Bin Ladin's death. He killed innocent and whoever kills an innocent is like if he has killed all humans....Bin Laden was trained by the same American Generals who dropped bombed on Japan (which is worng as per christian rules of engagement).
A Fake idea of Jihad was introduced by secular US policiy makers to bring people to fight and defeat russians in Afghanistan. And then all this back fired and countries like pakistan are suffering where our young generation was given guns instead of books.
In islam Jihad means the same as in christianity which has specific rules of engagement.
All these people who stood up in last couple of deacdes were actually helping evil by using the religions and unfortunately a term "jihad" from islam was misused....
May God Protect us and let us see the truth.....
Jihad of Islam and the Just War Theories of St. Augustine & St. Thomas Aquinas, which is taught by the Catholic Church are NO WHERE NEAR THE SAME!
It is perfectly permissible, in Jihad, to take female captives as sex slaves. It is perfectly permissible, in Jihad, to directly & deliberately slaughter children. It is perfectly permissible, in Jihad, to sue the enemy for peace, but break the peace agreement when the Jihad side is strong.
You are sadly mistake, son of Ishmael. Repent from your worship of the false god of the moon and his pedophile prophet.
Celebreting Laden's death is not simply immoral, it is mindless, because wasn't problem at all. At least not as much as American Gorevnment is.
@Alexthegreat8907 The Crusades were a little more complicated than that, and to imply that they're comparable to the acts Osama directed strikes me as disingenuous. The same applies to the Spanish Inquisition, if that's the particular inquisition you're referring to.
As for religion causing most of this world's tragedies, that's just not true, and I get so tired of hearing people repeating it again and again as if it was fact! (not meant to be an attack on you, I just get frustrated -_-' )
I am islam im so sad hear this comment
there is one thing i must add which will probably be judged by americans
You say justice is served. Ok.
What do you think this man and entire movement of al'qaida fought for? Does anyone even ask that question. They all fought in the name of their brothers and comrades who died in the middle east from western supported allies. Does anyone give justice to them?
Justice is never served.
Sorry, Bishop, but you are way off base and it is just one more example of why people are leaving the church in droves. Thank God you have never had to experience the end results of terrorism and murder first hand. If you had to handle the bodies of those who have been killed you might see this much differently. It's nice to try to be compassionate, but Jesus also said "I did not come to bring peace, but the sword." Catholicism has been drawn so far left in recent years that it is truly sad.
Bishop Barron is a peace-time Bishop. If we had no war, he'd be great to teach us virtue. Unfortunately, we need war-time Bishops today.
If a person kills your child, you don't love them. You must destroy it. This type of extended uncaring about justice (falsely said to be "love") ought to be stopped by Christians. When you see evil, end it (i.e., don't love it).
Rostam Ferdowsi that only continues the existence of Evil
I cannot believe , unless self defense or in war, that any1 has a right to take a life. What turns my stomach is how some countries including obviously yours Bishop- Take a persons life when their is the option of life in prison. I think its more about revenge.
:')
According to your religion Mr Barron, we are all wicked.
+Dave P Out of all the substantial and loving things that Bishop Barron spoke about all you have to contribute to the discussion is an attack on his faith?
+thejasaeljehu The church that Father Barron represents is a criminal organisation which deserves to be attacked.
+Dave P Your argument is so convincing. Every Catholic that reads this will give up his faith.
2.5 MILLION DISAGREE SO UR A 1 MAN ARMY..GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR FALSE PRECEPTIONS...OR ARE YOU HATEFUL AND SPOUTING ANGER ANYWAYS..You should speak to some1 in your local parish...by the way many have attacked-NONE can overcome, NO CRIMINAL GROUP COULD LAST 2000 YEARS,and the Holy Spirit does not guide criminals..-GOD IS GREAT
I WONT
Europe has had many dominant religions over the millennia. Christianity is hardly dying out, it's just that there are more Muslims here now. That isn't a bad thing: Islam is on of the closest religions to Christianity there is, and it certainly isn't a bad one.
Father Barron, This may not be what you want to hear, but the only problem I have with Bin Laden's death is that it wasn't my finger on the trigger.
I understand the feeling behind that statement, but I can't agree with the moral substance of it.
Fr. Robert Barron If Bin Laden was pointing the gun at you it is clear that you say you have the right to pull the trigger of your gun first but then the difficult dilemma that follows.. "I had the right to pull the trigger but I can't agree with the moral substance of it" - so how would we learn from that for the next time. "I have the right to pull the trigger but I know if I do I won't be able to agree to the moral substance of it" so the question? Would you pull the trigger? Two likely outcomes I think, !) You say no and then get shot and die or 2) You pull the trigger first thereby allowing you to continue to say that you had the right to pull the trigger but that you still can't agree to the moral substance of it. It is interesting to note that the ability to keep preaching is only based on pulling the trigger first.
splotsplot Maybe what Fr. Robert Barron is saying is that we should love everyone regardless of their ethnicity, actions or moral beliefs. Fr. Barron did not say that we have the right to pull the trigger and kill rather than we have a right to defend ourselves and one another. Defending does not nessesarily mean to exterminate the problem but from stopping it to make further damage. So going back to your trigger situation, if I have the upper hand to pull the trigger, my intentions "should" be to wound or per se create a situation where both sides can continue to live. Now thats an example of a 1 on 1 situation. If I as a by-stander do nothing to stop the situation then im supporting it. If people during WW2 did not intervene to protect those persectuted because of their ethnicity and moral values then they would be supporting it. The idea is to create an environment where good and bad people can live on without killing each other. Your trigger first ideaology is flawd when you put a rational thinking individual at one end.
Your point is a good one. The original argument to not highlight the concept of pulling a trigger to wound or immobilise is important. The normal interpretation of pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger is to give a fatal blow. However it was also stated that the immoral act was just the "pulling of the trigger" which also covers a wounding situation. It just shows you how when discussing these points the details are very important.
warden phil The only problem I have with Bin Ladens death is the lack of trial and the lack of evidence to put him behind the 9/11 attacks.
@JDNWF66
Absoloutely evil. I think a strong case could be made that he was one of the most evil men in history. But you cannot call God your Father if you do not call everyone, including bin Laden, your brother. He was brought into existence by the breath of God, as we were and that makes him our brother.
IMO, it's a very hard thing to pray for those who wish us such tremendous harm. For myself, I found the strength to pray for bin Laden not for love of him, but for love of Christ. (con't)
Father Barron,
I have enjoyed your perspective on things for quite some time. I am a loyal Roman Catholic and a real fan of First Things (especially under the founder). But I really have to say that you have listened to the popular consensus, which is very dubious IMHO. Osama Bin Laden put himself last among his brethren, including food. He was sacrificial toward his followers. It is hearsay that he engineered the 9-11 tragedy. So-called finding of video tapes attributed to him by our government have been convincingly debunked as fraudulent; it was not really him at all. Bin Laden was a self-sacrificing prophet. He did not threaten the Navy Seals. His wife and children had to witness the Seals blowing OBL's head apart. They will never recover from that trauma. We cannot, as Christians, be so callous as to what when down. They took what was left of his body and dumped it into the sea. It was not a courteous burial in the least. We Americans have more to fear from neo-cons than a very sick and dying adversary. What was troubling to me was that the manufactured story line has been accepted as fact. In some ways OBL was a prognosticator of the callous villainy of the always-expanding march toward world domination by American leadership.
I am islam
I am islam im so sad hear this comment
I am islam
King Ariff no you are a muslim. islam is an ideology
Of for goodness sakes.... its a language thing...
I am islam im
so sad hear this comment
dont u mean your muslum