The Orthodox Clergy Crisis - with Matthew Namee
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- čas přidán 5. 06. 2024
- Matthew Namee, Executive Director of the Orthodox Studies Institutes, shares a new study tracking the disturbing reality of the major deficit in Orthodox clergy being ordained in the United States.
How did we get here? What are the contributing factors? How do the Orthodox compare against non-Orthodox churches? What are the ramifications of the shortage? What is the goal of priestly formation?
He also shares suggestions for both short- and long-term solutions.
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I've gotten a lot of comments and messages from men asking how they can help with this crisis. Ultimately, it is up to our bishops to lead us, since they make the decisions about whom to ordain and how they should be trained. That said, you can make a difference right now in a way that changes the conditions in your own community.
I think the first thing to do is to talk to your own parish priest and offer your help -- whatever it is you can do. Make your parish a better place to serve, by giving as you are able of your time, your talents, and yes, your money.
And if you might be qualified for being considered for ordination, have that conversation with your priest and take to heart whatever he says, asking him about talking to your bishop. And if you're married, talk to your wife about how your family can become more engaged in your parish. Her opinion matters a lot and is actually critical. Most of all, pray and help out as much as you can right now.
We need deaconesses to help ease the load!
I have been tracking this for over 15 years in the Protestant world and I have been in Orthodoxy for 4 1/2 years now. The Mdiv cost vs expected pay applies everywhere. I was part of an apprenticeship seminary program that focused on studies + apprenticeship so you didn't have to go into so much debt to come out and make virtually nothing. Simply put the Archdioceses need to find a way to train priests for free through studies and apprenticeship. This is a grave problem and deserves that kind of response. It also is the way it should be.
Do you think removing the requirement that seminarians have a secular bachelor's degree would be included in this?
A priest does not need an Mdiv to effectively serve their flock. We are not scholastic catholics nor materialistic protestants. The priest shortage would be less of an issue if these sorts of programs were emphasized rather than allowing academia to gatekeep laity from becoming clergy
@@fornost64 agreed. There needs to be some level of education, obviously. But the title associated with it is irrelevant. Its almost detrimental, as other Master degrees usually lead to a higher paying career path whereas most parishes cannot pay a single priest enough to live off of, let alone help him cover university debts. Taking on a role that requires an expensive degree, a great deal of personal sacrifice, etc etc will dissuade a lot of people from even considering it automatically.
St. Spyridon of Trimethus was a Sheep Farmer.
The first Saint in Orthodoxy to have Graduated theological school was St. Nektarios.
Thinking that "education=being able to handle Spirtiual ills" is an issue that crosses sects.
@@George_033 if certain Seminaries want to keep those requirements because of the academic rigor I think that’s fine. And to be a priest there definitely needs to be some of that rigor but I think the Archdiocese should train “in-house” to prepare them and not require the full Seminary MDiv.
I am a Deacon in the OCA, I have a M.Div. from a Protestant seminary, and a Diploma in Diaconal formation from St. Tikhon’s. The St. Tikhon’s training was excellent, and done vis satellite campus in South Florida. The program was wonderful, and only required attendance on Saturdays. I believe that this kind of program- accreditation or not, could play a very effective role in our future formation of clergy with families and financial responsibilities.
Before I became a priest, I supported my large family as a carpenter. We never had much money, but we never wanted much either. Now, as a priest I have no income apart from small jobs I can do occasionally. One young man in our parish started bringing homemade loaves of bread as a way of helping to meet my needs. I also received a whole chicken once from a family. The people seem to really get behind the idea that priests should be poor. As much as this is a difficulty, it also proves what fr. Andrew said about the amount of Glory involved. The trade though, once poverty is embraced is that faith becomes a way of life, and hope is firmly established in the good God has already shown!
You're not an Orthodox priest. You're a schismatic.
Most families at my parish homeschool, and their boys are going into trades, where the real money is. Many of these young men are very pious, have grown up faithfully in the Church, and could make great priests, but it will never happen because of the education barrier.
The discussion of options to address this reminds me of the different approaches to training officers in the US military. You have the military academies, which are the most prestigious and provide a four year degree with integrated military training, but are very limited in capacity. You have ROTC at many universities, which train students but are not integrated into the rest of their lives the same way the academies are. Then you have OCS programs, which do intensive training focused on just what you need to become an officer, not other kinds of education. And finally, you have the possibility of directly commissioning enlisted personnel. Each of these has pros and cons, but by having all these different options you can bring in people in different places in their lives and scale things appropriately based on need.
Back when the military was quite small, most officers were trained in the academies. In WW2, when we needed tons of officers fast, we used OCS extensively. In the cold war, we got lots of officers through ROTC. But we continue to use all these approaches and they help train people in different circumstances.
When I was inquiring about the Orthodox Church I was a Protestant pastor. As I began to think I’m going to resign from my pastoral position I had a sense of peace that I was never going to be a pastor again (that was always a struggle as I was in-between churches as a Protestant). It wasn’t long that my wife (who was really struggling with becoming Orthodox) kept saying that she just knew I was going to be a priest. I kept trying to assure her that it was not my plan to become a priest (at the time I didn’t understand why she was struggling so much with Orthodoxy, let alone the dread of me being a priest). Then shortly before becoming a catechumen the parish priest said to me, “I don’t have clairvoyance, but I feel the Holy Spirit has called you here for some unknown reason and it’ll be made known as you go forward.” It was then I thought maybe God was calling me to be a priest. I went home and wept before my icons as I both felt I wasn’t worthy enough to be a priest, but also just felt overwhelmed that maybe Christ was blessing with it anyway.
When I moved to where I am at now to pastor the church I was pastoring, I prayed that God would allow my wife and I to buy a house close to the church (houses were selling so quickly we couldn’t even view a few that just hit before an offer was made). We ended up with a house 9 miles away and I thought, “Well, I guess God’s idea of close to the church is different than mine.” At the time the Orthodox Church wasn’t a blip on the radar, but when this was said and the idea of being a priest came up I felt like God answered that prayer before I knew it! My house is 2.1 miles from the Orthodox Church I attend! Our priest is 74 and so I almost wondered if I could then be trained first as a deacon and then a priest under him over the next 2-4 years and then he might be able to retire and I would then become the parish priest. Maybe when the priest said he thought the Holy Spirit was bringing me to the Orthodox Church for that reason?!
I talked to my wife about it. To be able to resign from the pastorate I prayed that God would help me find a good job that would take care of our financial needs and literally I got a job I didn’t apply for and the owners of the company are really nice and generous. I travel, but they limit it to 10 nights away from home and home by the weekends when you do travel. So I put this idea forward to my wife that I might be able to potentially talk to the owners that as I transition to being a priest at this parish that I could let them know that I’d like to work part of the year. This way they would already have a customer base for the new hire (I had lots of waiting for them to build a client base when first hired). This way I could maybe suggest to them to block my calendar off for Great Lent, Pascha, and during the Feast of the Nativity up through Theophany so that I could be there to do as many services as possible during those times. Then the rest of the year if I’m home by the weekends then I can at least regularly hold Vespers and the Divine Liturgy. In this way we already have a house near the parish, available to serve regularly, and enough pay from my other job that if the parish can’t pay enough to have the income needed for a decent living with retirement benefits.
My wife said she doesn’t think it works this way. Which is probably true. But that was just an idea. Perhaps it’s too much of my understanding and not me leaning on God’s understanding.
But I would say and I said this as a Protestant pastor, I wish they’d help those going into the ministry to consider certain secondary professions that you can work part-time that will pay well enough to support you in ministry. Too many small church pastors with a masters degree working Starbucks or Home Depot or drive school buses doesn’t help them much to provide for themselves and their family (let alone let them save for retirement). But full-time jobs and being a pastor is incredibly difficult. You can’t serve both, you will either love one and hate the other…
I only ever thought of this as I ended up with a second associate degree to become a biomedical equipment technician and NO ONE is hiring part-time biomeds. But you see part-time nurses, therapists/counselors, x-ray techs, etc. and at least those types of jobs could give you freedom to hold the services you need and pay well enough to supplement your ministry income so as to not feel overwhelmed, stressed, and under paid.
But as my wife and I have talked as well, maybe I just try to become a deacon and I might not be home for weekday services, but I’d be home for weekend services. I used to preach and if the priest needed me to preach one Sunday I could. Or if he’s not feeling well enough to serve the Eucharist he could bless it and I could stand in for him on his behalf. At the very least I could take a load off of the priest with conducting the services and allow him to be freed up to hear more confessions or whatever else is needed.
I got three masters trying to learn about God and know Him better. I came to the Orthodox Church in the same way, but I met God and experienced God instead! All my education…is good in some way or another, but like this video said, the formation of being Orthodox, attending the services, saying the prayers daily will radically transform you! Many of the Apostles were simple and unlearned men. Not everyone needs to be the Apostle Paul! We just need men to serve so that the people can come and meet God! To be taught by the Spirit and draw close to Christ! God is so much more beautiful than I ever imagined even when I thought I knew a lot about Him which often blew me away. But He’s present in the Orthodox Church in a Way unlike any other church! I so deeply desire for others to truly know Christ in a Way well beyond what I had hoped for as a Protestant pastor.
This is beautiful, thank you for sharing. I converted recently and had a similar experience. The first day I spoke to an orthodox priest, who ended up being my spiritual father, he asked: "have you ever thought of becoming a priest?" I am the son of a protestant pastor, and had started seminary but not finished. After I was baptized, we were reminiscing on that first day we met, and he told me that he asked that question because he felt the “priesthood” was very strong over me, and he saw me as a future priest. I still dont know what to make of it, it is very humbling and a bit scary. I just pray that the will of our Lord Jesus Christ is accomplished in my life.
I'm glad you took the time to type that all out and I read it all. It's good to hear these stories because it honestly feels lonely on the Internet. Your situation let's us know that in the real world people are truly taking part in this struggle!! So I commented earlier about how I feel inclined to help once I retire from the fire department and then as I read your post I had this come to mind....
Firemen and police officers usually work 25 yrs and then retire with a pension. A lot will grab part time work to just stay busy and help keep up with bills. You could also include military people in this . The fact they have this retirement money and many retire before 60 this is a great resource to pull mature men who have a considerable knowledge of working with people and dealing with difficult times. Alot of them get used to speaking in public especially if they become officers.A program where these 1st responders can properly train and study would be awesome! For example...
I have about 5 years to go. I can do all my studies and whatever else and by the time I retire I can step in.
What do you think about that?
@@felixguerrero6062 Saint Luke (the Apostle) painted the first ever icon of the Virgin Mary. It's been a part of the church since the beginning, as documented history shows. May God have mercy on your ignorance.
@@felixguerrero6062 Icons are not idols. I'll pray for you.
@felixguerrero6062 let me ask you a question. In Colossians 3:5 it calls covetousness idolatry. Have you ever coveted? I see Protestants self-rightously post the same "you idolators! Repent!" comment over and over and yet have a very narrow and misguided understanding of idolatry.
We need to pray for our clergy and future clergy. We need to give to our parishes.
I think the problem is that although I feel absolutely called to be in a parish, I do not have 100+ thousand dollars to get a degree that shows I know how to be good enough to be an orthodox clergyman.
I’ve always said this. Also, maybe they need to form them the old way as more of monastics or other methods nowadays it seems like everyone and everything is based on degrees and education. I think this is both a blessing and a curse in our modern society. Because obviously you need educated priests, leaders and clergy for many many reasons. You need someone who is also properly catechized, trained, educated, tested, also to ensure they are aren’t criminals or predators or felons or whatever. Also that they are not psychopaths, and are mentally and spiritual and emotionally able and ready and not some novice..Etc etc etc. so I believe we shouldn’t at the same time drop the standards. It’s a bit of a catch 22. Maybe also they will have to go back to more bivocational priests, as many still are. At least in orthodox they allow married priests so that’s also a good thing.
One potential workaround: You could spend about $5k and get an easy bachelor's degree (such as the business administration degree) at Western Governor's University in less than a year just to fulfill that requirement.
@@AnyLastWords_ this is the way
@@AnyLastWords_ I’ve heard many don’t respect that degree though. There’s always been cheap easy workaround degrees. But the other point of a degree is to have hoops and obstacles or standards to make people jump through, which is another point of the process. I get it and why they do it.
For a priest there also should absolutely have high standards (actually the highest standards). In a sense, it’s an easy fix. There shouldn’t be only one avenue to the priesthood. I think orthodoxy is the only faith that still does that. I always said we were shooting ourselves in the foot for that. There are so so so many things you can do, or maybe have under priests who are trained and certified and ordained to do everything Priests can do, but they’re not the head priests running the parish that’s where you will need more of the education and experience and all of that.
@@zealousideal Hmm, I haven't heard that anywhere. Sure, the WGU degrees may be cheaper than an ivy league school, but they are still fully accredited so I don't see why anyone wouldn't respect them. I know for a fact people get hired in respected positions with the IT degrees from WGU, but I can't speak much to their degrees in other subject areas like business.
That said, I really do like the idea of promoting the deaconate as a stepping stone into priesthood. I can't think of a better in between type of role between priest and layman. But if the "jumping through hoops" for 4 years is an important aspect to keep for those approaching the priesthood, then why not make a 4 year deaconate hoop? Anyone that spends 4 years committed without pay as a deacon surely might have what it takes to become a priest, right? Maybe that could be a requirement for a new path into the priesthood. Is four years serving as a deacon without pay an equivalent hoop to spending four years working on a degree? I honestly don't have much of an authoritative say in this discussion since I'm still a catechumen, but it's still interesting discussing potential solutions to this deficit. What do you think about the deacon hoop?
Im russian orthodox priest and we also need more priests, not catastrophic, but still. Also im working as a software developer to feed my big family.
I am a young priest that recently attended a clergy conference for our diocese. I was likely one of only 5 that were under the age of 60.
@@nel7105I pray you reach understanding. I'm 23 and have a Bachelors in nursing. There's a lot to figure out...
@@nel7105In what ways are you involved in your parish? What is your relationship like with your priest?
I am a graduate of the Orthodox Pastoral School (ROCOR) mentioned in this talk. It is a very good program, quite rigorous and a good resource for those who, like myself, aren't in a position to upend and move to seminary for a few years. I graduated in 2020, was ordained to the priesthood in 2021.
Glory to God!
Hello Father, I was not aware of this program. Would you be willing to share a link to their website, or contact information. My priest advised to gather information on what options there were for completing the education needed. Thanks
I have to say Fr. Andrew, that you and Matthew together make a great team and have some of the most practical and productive conversations. I'm hoping this will be a trend. 😊
I also love the dynamic between the two of you. I think your friendship makes these discussions all the better because you get right to the heart of the matter. It's also such an authentic type of conversation that you could hear being had in a coffee shop, a pub, at coffee hour, and feels accessible to everyone.
Again, hoping this is a trend.
This problem was solved a long time ago. Read Ware's The Orthodox Church wherein he reports that in the wake of the Greek War for Independence the GOC was faced with a shortage of priests. They ordained congregants that had manifested the fruit of the Spirit to preside over parishes lacking a priest. That didn't go too badly did it? The problem seems to be the desire to retain the current system which has failed.
you will have then a much a lower standard of pastoral service
I attend a Greek Orthodox church in Honolulu; we have one priest on staff, and no deacons. Thankfully a deacon was recently ordained for our Maui Mission, so they can have some regular pastoral care; they still only have the full liturgy and communion once a month when our priest visits. We have been blessed with an Orthodox priest (yay, Father George!) who until his recent retirement served full time as a US Army chaplain, who has been helping out at our parish.
Choose men with great families, men of prayer, with there affairs in order, well read in the scriptures, full of grace and wisdom.
That was back in early days . Nowadays you need the “official” papers :)
I’m a Protestant who cares about Orthodoxy, and this was very instructive for me in terms of the demographics, graduation rates, and other statistics you both mentioned. Thank you very much for putting this out.
I really appreciate the last section of this video. I think that emphasis on emotional intelligence, spiritual direction, and discipleship is, from my little understanding, fundamental to the Orthodox priesthood and really sets it apart from Protestantism (which desperately lacks this altogether) and Roman Catholicism (which can be formulaic due to their categorization of sin and the consequent penances). Having a personal conversation with a father who you can trust and who, by that trust, you are willing to take advice and direction from is one of the most absolutely important and valuable things the priesthood has to offer the laity - and not just the laity, but the whole world which has lost a sense of what fatherhood is and what it offers to a profound degree. People are so lost, we need the priesthood more than ever.
I'm listening to this and it sounds like you are about to suggest not everyone needs to go to seminary but some men should be trained in their parishes to become priests. If that is where you are headed, I am all for it. In fact, I wrote a letter to my bishop encouraging that several years ago.
This is exactly how my parish has been doing it, and it’s been working quite well.
I've heard a priest say "this usually ends badly"
I’ve always said this in that WHY do they have only one method to become a priest (which is also good for quality and high standards). BUT, I’m not sure why we think everyone has to go off to seminary and get some astronomical expensive MDIV just to be a priest. That was never how we did things in the church until modern days. Or have them trained in the monastery (or even pull/ borrow from monasteries), or have some hybrid program sort of like how they do for the diaconate. There’s certificate programs (even at graduate level), online courses or schooling, or maybe even make an online program.
I feel like we can figure this out and come up with some solutions. All of which of course aren’t ideal but it is what it is.
Of course ideally you want a very educated person who is smart and knowledgeable and can think critically and understand people and issues and all of that and lead a congregation.
On the other side of that coin 🪙 though there are detrimental effects too of cutting corners. We live in a very secularized society now and you need to really form them well in the faith and prayer and catechizing. They need to be tested, also background checks, make sure they aren’t felons, criminals, on drugs or addictions, mentally and emotionally stable and not psychopaths, etc etc. so there’s many things that also have to be considered too I guess.
@@severian_matachin I’m sure. But there are still more that can be done.
The quality of priests would dramatically decline. What needs to happen is the establishment of a big-money scholarship fund.
Coming from a Protestant upbringing, I found it odd that so many people in Orthodox parishes give $2-5 on Sunday. How can they expect the Church to flourish when people don't contribute?
There is a flip side where so many Protestant pastors live in huge houses with expensive cars. But the priest should be able to minister full-time while setting aside money to expand or build a larger building.
I wish people gave enough to have large Orthodox cathedrals here in America.
Maybe they're migrants where the government taxes pay for priests, I know that was true for the Lutheran State Churches (there's one old Finn that couldn't believe that our church survives on volunteer offerings and said we should essentially tax people on membership)
PS our synod has a standard salary (fixed to the average income of Australia) for all regular clergy regardless of location or role
Poor Immigrants and Poor White Converts.
Most of the "Rich" Immigrants send money back to the homeland. Metropolitan Saba has addressed this in his letter on his Elevation to Metropolitan.
Last week a saw a lady literally toss a dime into the basket :(
@@synthesaurusmaybe that's all she had....
@@spence0238 bro…
The thing is, bishops just don't seem to be responding to the men being put forward, while the training criteria fails to account for contemporary living situations.
I agree. There should be a path to the priesthood for men who apprentice under a priest that does not require seminary. Perhaps after serving as a deacon for a number of years one could be ordained.
I think it should be more apprenticeship with academics existing more online
ROCOR is already doing that I have heard. But I wish more denominations would go that way. I myself would enjoy working for the Antiochians since I happen to enjoy the culture.
@@cstewart7056 same
@@cstewart7056 That is an excellent concept: clergy training as an apprenticeship. Well worth investigating!
Bachelor's and MDiv to be a priest. My heart is pulled to the Priesthood, but this is impossible for me as a father of 2 young ones.
Talk to your Priest. I do not know which jurisdiction you are in.
@@fr.davidbibeau621 I will speak with him today Fr. I am within the Greek Archdiocese of America.
Many saints were not educated at all. Being educated in the American college system has nothing to do with being a priest or man of God. It shows an income barrier to being a priest. A simple carpenter wouldn't suffice today. How sad.
@@fr.davidbibeau621 My friend (father of my godchildren) has 7 and 1 due just before seminary begins. Several of the children are significantly disabled.
Our Priest, the Bishop, the Seminary and probably the Archbishop worked out a plan towards ordination to the Priesthood.
He had an MDiv already from a conservative traditional University (Eucharistic) and had been a pastor.
These kinds of concessions are opening up a window to discussions about how to acquire more Priests, where do we bend and what is best for the people.
Not impossible. I knew many in similar situations while in seminary.
Our parish has had several young men in their mid to late 20s interested in joining the diaconate, but between having to wait until they were 30 and moving their growing family for something they can’t afford by that point, it still hasn’t happened yet. As a cradle, I have never understood the process, especially when there has always been a shortage of priests and deacons in my lifetime. We are encouraged to raise our boys to become priests, but we have to say “sorry son, figure something else out for the next 12 years before you’re allowed”. 🤷🏻♀️ We are shooting ourselves in the feet!
Yes, it's purely wrong. Making up age requirements to even pursue priesthood is insane.
@@admiralmurat2777following the Canons is not “purely wrong,” they exist for a reason.
They can be a subdeacon at 20 and a deacon at 25. The problem is that they have to get married before they become a subdeacon.
I'm a fireman with 20yrs on the job and just getting into Orthodoxy and my 1st instinct is I will do it! I can train and study the next 5 yrs and when I leave the FD I can do it. But I am a simple minded child and still working through all my sin I feel so inadequate just to be in Church let alone be a Priest ..... But desperate times call for desperate measures! This is so concerning. Lord Have Mercy...
What is strange to me is that in order to become a priest, I would have to go to an explicitly Marxist organization and suffer through many struggle sessions and overt attempts at destroying my religious affiliation, in order to go to a seminary for a Master's degree. Why is there so much intermingling of garbage with a desire to be a priest? The requirements come from a much different (and more idealistic) time and the pathway to priesthood really needs to be re-evaluated in our political and cultural climate.
There are many undergraduate opportunities that are reasonable and will build you as a person. There are dozens of Orthodox professors who teach at secular and non-Orthodox Christian colleges. Your attitudes about 'the world' are concerning from the start, here, if you cannot tolerate being in a non-Orthodox environment and feel that ideologically threatened. The general rule to wait until around age 30 also helps men experience a variety of life struggles, in the world and in their family life, that allows them to shepherd the common people in a parish with empathy.
@@thegreenhomefront I have no problem living in the world. I understand we are all sojourners in this life. But the expectation that someone must jump through Marxist hoops to become a priest seems a bit....contradictory, to say the least and antithetical to the pursuit itself.
@@thegreenhomefront
Colleges weren't a requirement for 99.99999999% of History so you're completely wrong. It makes no sense to tie the church to colleges.
@@thegreenhomefront Universities are dead. Not even useful for secular people anymore. You know the examples you're siting are highly exceptional.
@@h1mynameisdav3 What other benchmarks would you suggest for current aspirants to prove they can read critically, write comprehensively, work with others in a diverse group, public speaking skills, come equipped with a broad knowledge of & experience of other cultures, at least some foreign language training to basic fluency, basic psychological principles, and perhaps some business skills on top of it all? Because our North American urban context for parish life requires all of the above, whereas other times and places did not to a lesser extent.
I feel like God answered my prayers and I found a parish of maybe 500 people and 4 priests 2 full time. I'm still currently a catechumen.
Start a relationship with one of those priests as soon as you can and ask them to teach you the faith! God bless you!
Fr. Andrew mentioned how the distance to church is one significant factor that prevents many people from being able to commit to consistently attending services, but there's an identical issue with respect to the priesthood that I don't think was mentioned explicitly: the distance to seminary itself is also a problem for a large number of us. If there were more locations to make this spiritual education more accessible, I'm sure more men would become clergy. With this surge of converts though, Lord willing, the Church will be provided for.
I serve as a Reader at a Cathedral I drive 1.5 hours to every Sunday. I'd rather be closer to that Cathedral but the Economic Reality has slapped me to moving to the other side of the state so I can have an active Parish Life.
@@acekoala457 I can relate to your sentiments wholeheartedly, as someone who moved across the country out of California and ended up somewhere in rural Oklahoma in the middle of nowhere, where our Church (or the closest Orthodox church in any direction) is about 1 hr 10 mins away. It's a sacrifice and can be straining, but there's no other options, so I try to just think of it as our cross to bare. The biggest downside--between my work schedule, the distance and only having one vehicle--is that we can only attend the one service every week and have to miss everything else. But then again, it could be worse, so I am grateful. God help us.
@@orthodox_soul
Staying here for me really isn't an option. I have become an other to all my old friends and people from my old Protestant Congregation aren't allowed to speak to me. And the work isn't what I want to do.
I am blessed that if I do move I can be closer to a Parish, Work, and even a Monastery.
My Spiritual Father has blessed me to move, he also wants me to find a wife and it may be a better option out there.
@@orthodox_souldo you know if the main Orthodox seminaries in America offer online programs?
@@acekoala457I’m Protestant and I’m sorry to hear that what’s happened to you socially. Grace to you, friend.
Throughout church history, when did graduate level seminary education become the normative prerequisite for ordination to the priesthood? Can anyone ever imagine simple fishermen, carpenters, tentmakers, or tax collectors without graduate degrees becoming priests?
The last 300 years for most Priests.
@@acekoala457 I dont know if it is general, but heard from a lutheran pastor about greek seminarians going to lutheran schools to leran biblical greek. With a terrible educational system, the Church need to train these people.
One of the things I am grateful for my time as a California hippie was my practices of intentional relating, counseling, circling, t-groups, and other practices of emotional relating. We felt like we were on a mission to save the world by talking about our emotions. Maybe that isn't true, but I came out of it with the ability to listen to people in their difficult places. I think counseling skills and practice with emotional relating would be good for seminaries, lay leaders, and people in general. Many of the people with the most powerful presences at our church that draw in converts are people that just happen to have strong emotional skills.
I’m currently a Subdeacon. I am a business owner. I own a electrical contracting business. I am interested in serving our church as a deacon. If it wasn’t for the Saint Stephen’s certificate I would not attempt a traditional seminary. I think the Saint Stephen’s certificate program is a practical solution to get more people that are established to become clergy. Many people just can’t afford or have the time for a traditional seminary school. 🙏
In the Ottoman era they ordained men if they could read. Maybe it wasn't the best, but there needs to be a realistic path to the priesthood for stable converts in their 30s and 40s. Seminary and even St Stephens are not realistic. Maybe a detailed examination by the bishop, plus 5 years as a deacon could replace the seminary route for some.
This reminds me of reading the law, instead of going to law school, to become a lawyer.
@@rickdixon1928 we are not law worshipping Pharisees being a priest is very different from being a lawyer
@@fornost64 It’s an analogy based on how people get trained. It’s not an analogy based on having lawyers in one group and lawyers in another.
@@rickdixon1928 If a man has a solid spiritual life and is capable of reading a service book he should be worthy of consideration. Many men in that situation already know enough to be a functional priest anyway.
@@rickdixon1928 i understand the analogy though I think no orthodox priest actually needs an MDiv to be a priest. A doctor on the other hand....
33:00 I'm not sure it's uniformly a bad thing to wait until enthusiasm wanes a bit. We need priests who will be consistently committed, not ones who flash brightly and then burn out quickly when the first blush of excitement wears off. One need only look at some of the recent defrockings to see why being tempered could be a good thing. I think a lot of training and preparation can and should happen in parishes, with priests approaching those who are consistently faithful and asking them to consider beginning the process. It's in line with what St. Paul says.
To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, "the canons are not a suicide pact." This is a pretty painful but necessary video to watch.
Matthew would make a fine deacon! Very well spoken!
Chris is Risen! Father Bless!
Great conversation. All of these factors have kept me from any serious consideration of the Priesthood. I think a complete paradigm shift away from the current MDiv mindset is the only thing that will ameliorate this crisis. I also like the idea of front-end screening. That way, a candidate could get an honest assessment that might keep him form making an expensive 3 year mistake. It is made abundantly clear that graduating from one of these seminaries is not a guarantee of ordination.
1. You will uproot your life for three years.
2. You will work like crazy studying and performing while in seminary.
3. You will go into debt to do this.
4. There is a good chance at the end of this process you will not be ordained.
Where do I sign?!!!!
According to someone I know, at least a number of years ago the Antiochian Archdiocese did pre-screening, and required the candidate to make a life confession to his spiritual father to search out any canonical impediments to ordination prior to entering seminary. I don't know if this is still the case, but it makes complete sense.
Fascinating conversation
First time I’ve heard this channel, God Bless you! Just had to share that Ive been Orthodox for over 13years ( was Chrismated) and have been seeking ordination for over the past year. I just visited St.Tikhons, mind you im in Florida atm. I spoke to the head abbot and student affairs director, both told me a bachelor was required which I do not have. My only hope is St.Vlad which ill be visiting this Fall (God Willing). The dean said “technically” the bachelor can be waved but chances are slim. It ASTOUNDS me how with the known problem that they are still so strict on their admissions its insane. Both my priests here are about 80, ones retired who comes out of retirement every Sunday essentially. And we are and have been looking for a new priest. I mean WOW… Lord help us. God Bless you and thank you for addressing this crisis. My names Brendan prayers regarding this matter are welcome. Thank you. Im 36
Which parish are you from in Florida? How long have you searched for a new priest?
Holy Cross, small church. Ft Myers FL. Rocor
I don't think that you'll read a Post that is as late as this is.... I know a young Priest, who upon "moving" to his new assignment needed to immediately apply for Food Stamps and Medicare. His Salary was very low and there was no housing; he received a Housing Allowance. His Children really needed Medicare for their ongoing medical needs.
Believe me: I have many stories to tell!
It can almost be guaranteed at these parishes that there are some wealthy multigenerational families (old or new world) that put in only a tiny amount to the donation plate but who could probably afford to finance a livable stipend for the priest and his family just between themselves and barely notice it on their own bank statements.
Our parish priest comes from a line of priests and clergy in his family. He was ordained by Metropolitan Jonah without ever going to seminary 5 years ago. He is such a wonderful priest and truly displays the effectiveness of tradition being passed down.
ROCOR is becoming less and less inclined to Seminary.
My Father Confessor was Ordained without an education.
Not something I had even thought about...how terrifying. Great topic Father.
@@JmsCaray-fx8qx Really? Fr. Damick promotes women priests?
@@larryjake7783 I reject ordaining women as priests and have never said anything different. Same thing for Matthew who is in this video with me -- he even literally says in this video that 100% of women are not called to be priests in the Orthodox Church.
As for Fr. Stephen De Young, he has a whole article on why priesthood and masculinity are inextricably linked: blogs.ancientfaith.com/wholecounsel/2018/05/02/priesthood-and-masculinity/
@@frandrewstephendamick Thank you Fr. Damick for responding. I was going to naturally check and vet the accusation before accepting the statement.
I respect the work you and Fr. Stephen De Young along with Fr. Josiah Trenham have put out, it's helping me understand Christianity (Christ) better as I'm just an inquirer. Thank you again, sir.
@JmsCaray-fx8qx I listen to both of them regularly on multiple media formats and I’ve not once heard either one of them say anything close to what you’re implying here. Hundreds of hours worth of talking.
Moreover Fr. Andrew directly contradicts what you’re saying as well. So what are you even talking about? Do you have some specific instance of proof you can point us to or are you just promoting baseless slander?
@@JmsCaray-fx8qx
I know Matthew Namee somewhat personally, I used to attend Liturgy with him for a short time and I actually plan on visiting him soon to pick his brain about stuff, and I have never heard him say anything about female Ordination.
This was a fantastic discussion.
This was an excellent honest conversation and I hope we can find a both/and solution that addresses the need of our parishes. Also, God bless Metropolitan Sabba!
Interesting discussion! Thank you.
In 2015 i went to seminary. I didn’t return for a second year. Among a *plethora* of reasons, one of them was I’m simply not an academic.
Fast forward to 2021. I realized the calling, push, whatever you want to call it, never truly went away. Over the years gaining more life experience and involvement in the Church I felt a particular pull towards the diaconate.
So I contacted my diocese’s seminary (different one than the first) and began asking questions. They asked me if I had a bachelors degree. I said no just trades, pastoral experience and some college.
He said “contact us again when you have a bachelors degree.”
That killed the drive for good.
I’m not saying they lost out on me or anything. I’m not that special. I wonder how many men share a similar experience and just wanted to share mine.
Christ is risen!
What jurisdiction? How long have you been a subdeacon?
I do not believe there is any actual requirement from history to have a bachelor's degree before entering a seminary but it is a rule that has been promulgated. It seems to me that in urgent times this could be moved along more quickly. I'm a Roman Catholic so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt but Photius of Constantinople was a lay person who was quickly ordained a priest, tonsured a monk and consecrated a bishop within I think several days in order to be able to assume the patriarchate. I don't believe that's an isolated incident either. Wouldn't there be a way for the process to be shortened a bit with the requirement that after coordination the priest complete on a part time basis the necessary education? I have asked that question also regarding the Roman Catholic Church. Good formation doesn't necessarily mean excessively long formation and some of the requirements could be completed while the priest is working as a priest.
As a medical doctor I can speak to an analogy in medicine. We of course have to finish medical school and obtain licensure but we can work as doctors while completing residency programs to become certified at higher levels. In fact in many foreign countries a medical degree is a bachelor's degree and in the United States some medical schools offer a shortened combined bachelor's degree and MD. While I do understand that the salvation of souls is ultimately more important than the treatment of the body, it seems there should be a way to help this along for good candidates.
After all, I believe during the time of the church fathers there was no specific set of academic requirements other than being literate and generally from the time of St Augustine there was a residency requirement for a number of years in a monastery or religious school. I don't think bachelor's degrees existed until the 13th century and we had priests before then. By the Middle Ages at least in the Roman Catholic Church a boy could enter the seminary at the age of 12. He certainly didn't have a bachelor's degree by then. What I'm saying is that the requirements we have now in both the East and the West are disciplines. not dogmatic requirements and they could be altered a bit.
We will continue to pray for vocations in both of our respective churches.
Many saints were not educated at all. Being educated in the American college system has nothing to do with being a priest or man of God. It shows an income barrier to being a priest. A simple carpenter wouldn't suffice today. How sad.
@@AmericanwrCymraeg I've been a subdeacon for about 8 years now. Maybe 7? I remember the day, but not the year lol
Contact the Orthodox Pastoral School in Chicago by ROCOR. They don’t require any education, it is all online, and I believe also can be done at your own pace (1 course at a time).
Other jurisdictions accept graduating from this seminary too.
Thanks for the update.
Myself and a couple others are being set upon and diacerning the path to clergy. This video is very timely and has given me good questions to ask the bishop when we see him.
The career I have is strangely a very underpaid one. So my family is no stranger to tightening the belt. Having worked for the Navigators when I was a protestant, I experienced many moments of needing to trust in God's provision.
However, having to potentially uproot the family and and potentially go into debt to pay for schooling to return to a bi-vocational life is a tough pill to swallow. The discussion around a "priest training" programme is what really caught my ear. Things like this to mentor potential deacons and priests, to me, seem like an excellent way forward. Might mean you don't get the paper/credential, but you get what is more important; the tools to help you serve God's Church. My priest has mentioned the Diaconate training programme, and is exciting that a similar opportunity would be possible for future priests. The Academic degrees will always be there to be pursuied, but training for what is needed to do the work of a priest would be a boon.
Maybe we should adopt an apprenticeship model instead of seminary. Give him his training right there in the parish, not many miles away.
This is the way Priests were made in the pre-Tsardom days.
Also many times it was the son or son-in-law of the Parish Priest.
Is there a time limit distance to make sure that people don't get into fast into that position@@acekoala457
I know someone who went to St Vladimir's and quit after 6 months because he was not a speed reader and could not read the volumes of books required in the time allotted. I don't think that aligns with the historical requirements and methods.
100%
I'm 42. I converted from Roman Catholicism back in 2011 at the age of 29 (had been attending Orthodox services for three years). My wife (who was agnostic at the time) and I had been married just a year when I started coming to the Church. Growing up Catholic I had wanted to be a priest, but I also wanted to eventually get married, so I never pursued the Catholic Priesthood. When I converted I didn't initially think about the priesthood, but I had that nagging thought in the back of my head, so I had a long conversation with my priest. Between my wife being socially shy, and my lack of interest in going back to school (I already had a BS in General Business, and a BS in Accounting, which I've not used either degree), also I have a very introvert nature and other things I won't bring up here. My priest suggested that for now I would best be of service as a Reader in my parish, and we'd let the Holy Spirit guide me from there. That was in 2011, and I still think about the priesthood, but being a Reader is more than enough for me right now. I do, however, encourage any man in my parish who expresses an interest in the priesthood to visit with our priest about it. My parish has produced 2 priests in the past 6 years. Also we have at least two young men who are very interested in becoming priests, granted they still have several years before they graduate high school to even enter seminary, but it's still exciting.
They need to update their entry standards. Brick and mortar universities are FAST becoming a thing of the past. With the worlds collective knowledge available in the palm of your hand, the exorbitant price of a legacy degree that has increasing diminishing returns with a lifetime of debt. It's mostly STEM fields that are even worth it. Many smart people are choosing an alternate route to education. I think the Orthodox church need rethink its qualifications process.
Online learning is a joke.. anyone in any field who has an online degree is actually less educated.... I passed 4 college courses online from a university without actually learning anything....
Very sad because we need each other’s help. Need the church.
I think one particular issue for men (particularly young men) who may be interested in the priesthood is the question of marriage. It's no secret that there has been an influx of young male converts within American Orthodoxy. Many of these young men may be interested in seminary or pursuing ordination, God willing! But they don't want to be a celibate priest, understandably. Yet there is a scarcity of women for them to pursue, especially a woman who is willing to be a priest's wife. That's a vocation in itself! I suppose one could go to seminary and hope to meet someone while he's there. But is it ideal to have a seminarian trying to balance his studies with figuring out who he will marry? I hesitate to say yes.
Of course, this may not be the most pressing issue within the broader American Church. And I think there can be a tendency to dismiss this concern as young men getting anxious about their future. But based on my experience, many Orthodox young men aren't particularly hopeful about their chances. Sure, given time something may develop. After all, practicing Orthodox young women will likely prefer someone within the Church. But we shouldn't ignore this. I don't mean to say that Matthew or Fr Andrew are ignoring this, by the way. I just don't remember hearing it in the video and figured it is worth mentioning.
This is a tremendously important point.
I definitely think this is a broader issue for the Church in America. A recent study found that there are more Gen Z *men* going to church than woman. The women are dropping out more than the men and thus there's a general uneven sex distribution among Gen Z and that is slated to continue. At the same time, from what I can tell we have general regional and intra-denomination disparities in sex distribution as well. Just look at all the people going "there are no [men]/[women] at my church!" Re: intradenominational disparities, iirc women tend to go for more "liberal" denominations, men more "conservative" ones, as those loaded terms are commonly understood in the general public.
We're going to see a lot of Christian men and women just not getting married absent any action by American churches, who still seem to think we're in a 20th century environment where family formation "just happens."
Seminary school should only be for bishops. Men should be able to go to monasteries for free until they are ordained.
Monasteries was how priests were ordained for 1000s of years.
That makes sense in the Latin Church, with its celibate priesthood (actually, sourcing priests from monasteries is probably why mandatory celibacy arose in the West), but it would not work in Orthodoxy with a married priesthood. Unless young men entered it before marriage, but then you're in no better position than with academic training.
The real problem here is that the training currently required for the priesthood is not compatible with contemporary life in the Church. If you don't start on the path to the priesthood in your early 20s, it will be nearly impossible. A man with a family cannot go to seminary or a monastery for 3 years, and his wife should not be required to support the family in that time.
@@td934 you don't need 3 years of monastic training for priesthood, it's more like 1 year. A married man wouldn't need to uproot his life, he would probably spend 3 months at a time at a monastery until he's done 1 year and become ordained. It could be done over 4 years, with 3 month sabbaticals each year.
Or 1 month a year over 12 years, or 2 months a year over 6 years, or maybe on some years one could do more months than other years. Point is, a year's worth of training in a monastery should be sufficient.
@@h1mynameisdav3 I don't think asking a man to leave his family (or specifically, asking his wife to run the household by herself, and also somehow pay the bills?) for 1 to 3 months at a time is reasonable.
@@h1mynameisdav3 men are usually the primary bread winner for the family. What company could they work for that would allow 1-3 months off from work so that they can go live in a monastery? That’s unrealistic
@@td934 perhaps monasticism needs to expand its horizons.
What about single men and women living and working at monasteries until they're married, but the communities actively seek to forge those marriages?
What about incorporating families into the life of monastic communities, with the church at their heart?
What about a monastery as a "reservation" for more traditional modes of living on the land beyond monks at prayer?
fascinating conversation prompting me to want to hear more. Lets not forgot these young priests graduating with degrees and in significant debt. now on to becoming a parish priest whose income very often is below poverty level AND they have a growing young family. This cost alone for a small parish is staggering. Instead of our diocese saying indirectly "well your parish isn't contributing enough" i feel in some way there's money at the top that can be better utilized to aide our priests. Thankfully our priest just started on Medicare. This will kick the tin can down the road for a while. we are a small parish, our youth have graduated from school and many have relocated. That leaves mainly us aging seniors on fixed incomes grappling how to stay afloat.
Big Education created this vicious cycle. The Church does not need it, and our bishops need to stop buying into it. I know a young man who was very interested in the priesthood, and with the blessing of his priest he applied to seminary. His bishop said: You have too much student debt. Pay that off before entering seminary. Yes, that is wise. Priests and parishes don't need the added stress of massive debts. But by requiring a Bachelor's degree before entering seminary only perpetuates this problem. You can't go to seminary without a BA, you can't get a BA without debt, you can't go to seminary with debt.
What happened to the young man? He invested in his degree and spent 8 years paying off his loans. In the meantime he got married to a wonderful Orthodox girl, and was then responsible for helping pay off her loans. By the end of that, they had a couple kids, and he never did go to seminary. "Many such cases," I am sure.
What do you mean the church does not need it? All of the early church fathers were formally educated. We have always bought into “Big Education”
The problem is the seminary accreditation agencies. They create the standards and degree mills. All the great priests of the past did not have an MDiv. Let's go back to the past and make the men of honor in our parishes priests if they get training from the Bishop. Just an idea--forgive me if this is heresy.
@@sweetxjc
The Apostles were Fishermen.
@@sweetxjc The Church Fathers were mostly prominent bishops, and yes, formal education should be a prerequisite for the episcopacy. But the vast majority of ordinary priests throughout history were only educated enough to read and perform the services. And besides, the Holy Spirit can fill whatever is lacking in a man when he needs it-as we see on Pentecost.
40:33 possibly one of my biggest regrets and simultaneously one of the better ideas I had in life was taking the trade route in highschool. Yes I have a stable job, yes I make decent pay, yes I have a nice pickup truck. But now I just offset the 4 years I have to wait to get my bachelors and ONLY THEN go to seminary. And it’s only now 4 years into my electrical apprenticeship that I’ve realized this work culture is possibly the WORST to try and create personal spiritual growth in.
As the video says, this is not a new problem.
20 years ago I was at a GOA Clergy Laity Congress. Abp Dimitrios proudly boasted that the Seminary had graduated 18 priests IN THE PAST THREE YEARS. When the president of Holy Cross addressed the convention, I asked him this question: Father, Archbishop dimitrios told us yesterday that we had graduated and ordained 18 priests in the past 3 years. The GOA has 550 parishes, and probably 750 priests (my guess). If we have a 5% attrition rate, that means we need about 35 priests per year...and we are producing 6. Is the situation as DIRE as those numbers suggest?"
From the dais, he gave me a "Walk around the block," answer.
However, to his credit, later in the day, the president of Holy Cross found me in the halls, during a break, and apologized to me. "If i had told the truth, they would have crucified me right there. Your numbers are a little high, but not far off. Come and visit us at Holy Cross sometime!" he said.
As one of the other commenters suggested, this is definitely a leadership problem. A good first step might be to NOT stick their heads in the sand!
In my tradition we have a peculiar practice. Ministers are not ordained via seminary, those who feel the calling, etc. Instead, we ordain them from among the people, with the one ordained being selected via lot.
Along with this, we also ensure that any given congregation has multiple men serving, with the number adjusted depending upon the size of the congregation being served. In this way the younger can be trained by the older.
There's something heavy in this. No one gets to decide they want to serve and generally won't decide not to. Instead it is left in the hands of God. The advantage to this is that we never have a clergy shortage. The disadvantage is that we might not necessarily have the training.
Pray for me. The feeling that this is my path hasn’t gone away in the five years since I was brought into the Orthodox Church. I’ve been pushing a away but it’s still nagging at me.
My antiochian parish just had an 80 year old priest retire.
He was replaced with a 70 year old. We don’t even have a deacon until next month.
The archdiocese doesn’t even really want to ordain readers, which would naturally rise through the orders, and it discourages parishioners from wanting to serve, because nobody wants to amass debt to get a mdiv.
Convert surge is happening for real and if the mdiv requirements aren’t dropped, we are gonna lose parishioners faster than we gain them over the next few years.
I'm curious what makes you think the archdiocese doesn't want to ordain minor clergy? That hasn't been my experience. There has been a shift towards wanting minor clergy to be better prepared but also then having them be more active in what they do, but we're actively encouraged to look for qualified men.
In terms of debt, the Antiochian Archdiocese pays the cost of seminary for its seminarians so they don't graduate with debt.
“Master of divinity” is an absurd title when you think about it 😂
I'm trying to figure out how to go to seminary... we've been Orthodox for a decade... I really wish the Antiochian House of Studies and online education was taken more seriously by bishops and seminaries.
We need to pray.
This video did not go deep enough into St. Stephens and AHOS in general. Nor did it discuss St. Athanasius college. Those are two resources right at everyone's fingertips. I myself am a graduate of AHOS and I have been a priest for six years.
I'm truly considering the monastic life. I don't want money I don't want Cars. I'm content being celibate, broke(in the eyes of the world.
But Rich in the treasure of faith in the lord
We need to consider a solution that is being used in education to solve the teacher shortage and it is called Grow your own….The idea is that parishes consider young men who have the potential to serve as a clergyman and begin priestly formation. We are doing this in our parish now with one of our subdeacons. He is working closely with our priest and myself (I am a deacon) and enrolled in the Antiochian House of Studies M.Div program. He is spending time in the choir and altar and serves as the parish catechist. God being his helper he will be ready for ordination to the diaconate soon and within a few more years the priesthood. Prayers appreciated.
AHOS is great, but it's still a time commitment beyond what many can realistically do. Men are willing to walk away from their careers to become priests, but in the meantime, to provide for your family plus commit an extra 10-15 hours a week (so I have heard from AHOS students) to an academic course is still a barrier to entry for many who might otherwise make excellent priests.
@@td934 I agree it is a significant time commitment. I went through AHOS myself and with a full-time career and married it was a challenge. Allow me to further clarify. Part of a Grow your own program is that it is not the man going it alone. The parish comes along side the candidate and supports him and his family through the process (assistance with child care, meals, financial assistance etc.) It will look different for each parish depending on the needs of the individual and his family. Just one possible solution. Thanks for your comment. CHRIST IS RISEN!
I think home grown clergy and apprenticeships like it is definitely one of the ways to go to help this crisis. I'm personally pursuing monasticism, but if I weren't or if I end up not being cut out for it, being my priests apprentice to become a deacon or a priest is a pretty exciting idea for a plan B.
@@jp2861 Exellent point, thank you for your clarification. Material support from the parish is critical if we want to raise up clergy.
Likewise, parents need to talk to their sons about the priesthood as a viable "career" path, because as long as the academic pipeline is there, it needs to be entered early. And every parish with more than 100 members ought to raise up at least one priest per generation, or the bishop needs to get involved with correcting what must be a lax parish life.
@@unibrowsheepZ We will need bishops too and generally draw those from the monastic ranks so......you never know! CHRIST IS RISEN!
Thank you father
I've always wanted to serve God and help build up the Church, I've been considering Priesthood. I have no ambition to do or be anything else but to serve God. However, I don't know. I don't know what to do, or if I am ready yet. I guess we will see what God has planned for me in the future, but I need to focus on my own path for a while.
As a young 25 year old Orthodox Christian ive began to feel great calling toward serving in the church further. Where that may be, i dont know. Im praying with His Grace Bishop Benedict visiting soon that i may join the ranks as a reader to start. Something that deters me slightly is i have zero degree so to even consider seminary at this point in my life, i have at least 6-8 years till im at a point of being considered ordained. I will serve wherever God needs me, and im not against education, but frankly theres just not enough young men in the minor orders either, which traditionally is how we grow and learn in the liturgical life. Young men should get involved reading the epistle, old testament readings, the hours, and serving in the altar well into adulthood. Not everyone is called to these things, but it should be encouraged to at least get them to try something. You cant learn how to serve from the pews
It's even worse in the OCA in Canada...at a time when we are starting new missions in the west. The American synod has severely limited and restricted Canadian ordinations more than ever before.
Doesn't the OCA in Canada have it's own Archbishop?
As far as Ordination goes he has final say in his Parishes.
Unless the OCA is the bureaucracy that it denies itself being.
Anglicans, in Australia, have been having similar discussions concerning the shortage of priests for at least 40 years to my personal knowledge. Part-time priests, worker priests, expanding functions of the diaconate, lay "ministers" distributing the reserved sacrament to the sick etc, lowering academic requirements of seminary training, endless "church growth" programmes and more recently ordaining women to the priesthood - all of these have been tried and have basically failed. Amalgamating parishes just speeds up the death spiral of those parishes.
Anglicans have been Ordaining women for 50 years in the US.
@acekoala457 By more recently, I meant in the 2000 years of the Anglican church in general and the Anglican church in Australia since 1788.
Interesting stuff
Other factors:
1. Seminaries are geographically clustered, making them harder to get to. There are none in Canada (besides the online one through a University).
2. The seminaries do not allow people without an underlying degree to attend. That seems pretty silly to me. The priesthood is not about writing academic papers. People can learn the academic process as they go for these types of needs. We are shooting ourselves in the foot for not having a program made especially for those without a Bachelor's degree. It's simply not realistic otherwise.
3. The Dioceses need to start paying for candidates schooling. As you mentioned, it's not realistic to have student loans when it won't be realistic to pay them off with the tiny wages they receive.
4. Parishes need to be confronted with the reality of finances. They need to be told what proper giving looks like. Greeks for example, likely take it for granted how the priest is paid, because in the old country their wages are paid by the government.
Of course there are many more factors, but these are some realistic ones we could tackle.
Very sad but informative video to listen to. My parrish is 1 hour 30 min from where I live. It is very hard to attend sometimes. Just recently the priest assigned roles like treasurer to some of the laymen. Our parrish is growing and Im sure his stress and workload is too. 😂😂 I hope i influence my children to join the monastic life or clergy someday. ❤☦️
38:00 - Writing papers helps one learn to and practice organizing one’s thoughts. Parallels can be made between this skill and creating sermons worthy of the position of priest.
There should be a parish level program for apprenticeship and a willingness on the part of bishops to ordain more priests until a new bishop is required. Degrees should be nice to have at best. It really shouldn’t matter at all. Can you read? Can you pray? Can you struggle? Can you obey your bishop? Can you listen to your parishioners? A theologian is one who prays, not one who writes or studies. We should be saying no to modernist models of schooling and programization, especially if it is at the expense of recruiting otherwise qualified priests.
The Jordanville bachelor's program provides an ideal alternative to going to secular colleges for a bachelor's before pursuing an MDiv, if one chooses that route.
Barrier to entry is too high - don’t get me wrong an mdiv is important but it’s can be a huge barrier for some people to enter the clergy - you have to move your family - there is a huge time and fincial commitment for some as well. Also program is really long and you need an under grad degree to get the masters. Not everyone who could be a priest needs that level or type of education. Also many are hesitant to commit to the priesthood. In alaska they make an exception to the mdiv program expection for native priests. I don’t see why you can’t have a shorter program and have ongoing education through the dioceses- also there seems to be barriers to getting local men into the deaconate to help local parish priests and focus on counseling and serving over high level theological courses you’d get from an mdiv. If there was strong deaconate programs that encouraged men to serve in that roll I would bet many of those men would eventually consider the priesthood down the road. Likely at their home parish they e served as a deacon at if a vacancy came up late. Also we need a single unified American diocese - having over lapping jurisdictions creates and unnecessary administrative state where multiple bishops have jurisdiction over the same areas - home much money and man power could we save by having fewer and consolidated dioceses. How many priests work for their dioceses and not a local parish? But we can’t have that because of pride.
Western ideology has infiltrated Eastern Orthodoxy. Somehow books smarts is equivalent to piety in today's churches. Sad.
Our priest put in for a move for family reasons but he can’t leave bc there’s no replacements.
Very interesting
How can we expect to produce good faithful men (and women) if our education system about our Holy Orthodox faith is lacking. We need to have a rigorous program that educates our youth and continuing education for young adults and adults. Once someone knows the faith, they will be encouraged to know more about the faith and likely continue into the path of priesthood
For us unqualified men, I wish you would also speak about going to seminary to support our parishes and dioceses. ☦️
I have been saying this for years as a protestant. Now that I am an orthodox inquirer I am saddened to see the same problems. Why are we submitting the church to a secular model of education. This is not the way.
Agreed
I read somewhere, that for most of history, people will trained by a Master-Apprentice relationship. Perhaps apprenticeship toward Priesthood could be done. What else does history reveal, probably hasn't always been expensive Seminary programs.
Im a Prot Pastor on the journey by the way. In my neck of the woods the roll of Pastor is all about being a Mega-church Religious Edutainment Hype Guy. Taught to pressure people to volunteer "staff" the ministry all the while getting a salary. Yes, Im cynical and dont even know what it means to be a Pastor anymore. Hence, on the journey.
I don't know how it is in other parishes, but I think it's important for ypunger Orthodox to bring their children to Liturgy, and for them to receive the Sacraments themselves, to set an Orthodox example. I have the impression that extracurricular school activities are considered more important, with kids competing for scholarships. Some families are scattered, and this may be the reason for so few children where I am, but I also see fewer children in families, though there are more children in Orthodox families than in Roman Catholic or other protestants. The future of the Orthodox Church is in the cradle.
I agree! We have at least 100 children in church every Sunday morning and they participate!
Our young children often join the Great Entrance holding candles and older children sing a song with the Choir.
Children join adults in cleaning up at coffee hour and serving.
Everyone has Sunday School at the same time on the same topic to share at home. (Kids have teachers)
They are vitally important and teach us adults to be patient.
My experience is that Orthodox people don’t tithe. If they did probably a lot of these problems would go away.
Any data on what percent of family units actually tithe?
Our church publishes the data (names excluded). The amount people give and the number who give at all is less than you think.
While still a catechumen in the Greek church, they made it clear that they are "hiring". In all honesty I would consider it, but at almost 45 I am not interested in $250,000 of debt. Actually, I am still a catechumen who will be baptized in the next month or so. Orthodoxy in North America needs to be careful. People will come marching in with Western ideas. Anyway, I am considering monasticism but that's a whole other story and it probably wouldn't be in the Greek church.
The Ephraimite Monasteries are good.
Online-hybrid seminary education allowing students to work and live at home and attend their local parish while attaining degrees could solve much of this problem.
The entire process seems extremely slow. Even for the Diaconate, it takes months to hear back from anyone. Apparently each Diocese has different requirements too. In Western PA, I know a person who was able to go through the remote program fairly quickly, no major hoops to jump through. In the South though, it’s nearly impossible to get a hold of anyone and there’s all sorts of hoops to jump through.
Our massive diocesan territories make administration very hard for bishops. I know we're talking about clergy shortages, but missionary territories like America could benefit from the restoration of Chorbishops to help with administrative work. (Or we could work towards unity and not have 5 bishops all ruling the same massive territory, and instead have roughly 1 bishop per state or 1-2 dozen parishes.)
@@td934 it actually wasn’t the bishop that was hard to hear back from or get approval from- it’s been the people running the programs or the local admin teams (who absolutely are also parish priests and extremely busy). But the pipeline to get people into these programs seems flawed and unnecessarily cumbersome. I don’t see how two dioceses in the same jurisdiction can have such wildly varying requirements.
@@td934
1 Bishop per State would be the ideal, with Auxiliary Bishops in the Larger Cities.
But Pride and Greed stand in the way of Orthodox Unity in America.
Today I spoke with a young Protestant visitor. He thought all our altar servers in black robes were deacons. He was shocked to hear that a man must marry before becoming a deacon.
I would probably be on the path to the Priesthood if it was not a requirement that I attend Secular University to get a degree I will never use. But the Priesthood is always on my mind. More so now than ever.
Same
Requiring an MDiv is a major obstacle. I would imagine one can become just as learned in the role of a priest without it. We left Protestantism because of their highbrow approach to the pastorate.
Our holy Father's didn't have an MDiv, why do we require it now? ROCOR priest's are great and many of them don't have an MDiv.
Agreed. I can't remember which Saint it was, but there was a saint who famously hated the idea of seminaries. I would rather have an abundance of pious and faithful but uneducated priest than priests who are educated but create a shortage because of their education. Have we become like the Protestants who value their scholars above church father? Their academics over the embodied sacramental life?
@@unibrowsheepZ
St. Ignatius Brianchaninov.
He saw them as Protestant and Latin Inventions meant to make Priests subservient to the State, at that time the Tsars had eradicated the Moscow Patriarchate and made Bishops answer to the Duma.
The first Orthodox Saint to Graduate from Theological School was St. Nektarios of Aegina.
@prestonphillips294
0 seconds ago
The Holy Fathers did not have an MDiv, but they were also still very well educated. Moreso than we are today, even. Desperate times call for desperate measures, but education in “academic” fields like history, rhetoric, science, philosophy, etc. was the background of many great fathers. St. Cyril, St. John Chrysostom, St. Photius, etc. did such great work for the church because of their great learning.
I do not understand why an Mdiv is necessary to become a priest. It doesn't make any sense historically, and it is an impossibly high hurdle for married men with families and jobs thst they have to keep because being a priest will not pay the bills.
The vast majority of ordinary parish priests throughout the church's history did not have an MDiv level of academic knowledge. Spiritual formation is far more important.
I am orthodox priest in Russia an im working as software developer to feed big family and i see many priests starting getting second work around.
Interesting, if you look at the number of Orthodox in America vs Catholics, and then look at the number of ordinations to the priesthood per year, we're ordaining 4-5x more men per year per capita.
Orthodoxy is America is 0.5% while Catholicism is 23% so what are you on??
@@michaelwachira8484 Right. I said "per capita." Given their relative sizes, Orthodoxy is ordaining a lot more people and has a much smaller shortage.
@@AmericanwrCymraeg But Catholicism is growing rapidly in america.. Even more than the EO so again what are you on??
@@michaelwachira8484 Please explain how what you said, even if true, contradicts or even relates to what I said. The topic is the clergy shortage
@36:00 Regarding late vocations, the Antiochian House of Studies now has an online MDiv program w/ a residency component (ATS accredited) with its first class graduating this year. It's an intense program (more than just writing papers and includes in parish experience and a pastoral aspect) but can be completed with a full time job and is much more than just the St. Stephen's program. The people I know who combine this with an active parish life and visits to monasteries are very well rounded candidates.
30:00 I was ordained in my late 20s. I find now, in my early 30s, that I'm unusually for how long I've been a parish priest compared to others of my age.
As deacons are blessed & can be tasked to bring Holy Gifts to the sick and the shut ins, deacons could also be blessed to bring the Holy Gifts to missions perhaps once per month, combined with Typika there.
Expand the Bishop's reach to pastorless missions through the deacons!
I’m pursuing a MDiv through a small, still-barely-beyond-charter institution for “continuing” Anglicans - it costs me around $150 per class and it’s all very personal, informal teaching.
Having come from a larger seminary prior to this, I think I can say I haven’t noticed much difference in terms of content - Hebrew is Hebrew and Greek is Greek. If you can’t AT LEAST engage with the canon texts (not meaning mastery but at least the ability to have a generally orthodox hermeneutic and ask intelligent questions), you probably have no business being behind a pulpit or conducting anyone in the Christian life. (There’s more to it than that, but certainly not less)
That said the cost threshold need not be so high. And if we really go back to a NT model, we will have a place for dual calling, where a Pastor/Priest does not need to walk into a small Church with 401K, housing and healthcare requirements since they are gainfully employed already.
This might sound impossible, but I have found that I am actually able to resonate better with my congregants as a dual career guy because I know firsthand what they go through. They know I am not just sitting there reading books and drinking coffee all day 😂
I hear a lot of folks saying how “Only MDiv educated can be clergy.”
Before the creation of seminaries, were the clergy back then “Unqualified”? I’m sure the disciples or the apostles didn’t have their MDivs.
This is why there is a priest shortage.
You have clergy coming out of seminary book smart, but their spiritual formation is in the gutter.
1:09:24
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Church History and the beliefs of the Church should be a precursor to Seminary. Why in the world are you becoming a Priest if you already don't know the history of the Church and have read the fathers and mothers of the Church?