I Read Death In Venice by Thomas Mann | I Need Your Help
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 27. 06. 2023
- Take 2 on this review and of course I have a seed in my teeth đ I feel like this video is cursed at this point but at least the audio won't make your ears bleed.
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I'm starting Death in Venice for class this week, and appreciate your review, and knowing what I'm getting into. You didn't make me dread it an increased amount. I'll tell you what Prof told us introducing it.
19th century fiction was defined by being didactic, being entertaining but also guide society on the correct path. Death in Venice is part of a movement called Aestheticism, where writers decided that since there was still war death and destruction that the moral guiding had failed, so Aestheticism was about art for art sake, and was defined by pursuit of pleasure untethered by morality. Perhaps Mann wants a pat on the back for being honest about his taboo lust for young men. On my side TBD.
Appreciate the review. You can also stir clear of The Immoralist, which is a little more explicit.
Thank you for sharing this! Itâs an interesting perspective! I hope you enjoy reading and breakdown Death in Venice in class. The prose is stunning even if the plot makes the modern reader a little uneasy.
I first saw the film as an adolescent when I myself was hopelessly in love with the school genius and I fully understood everything Aschenbach was going through. Its about ideal beauty, its about spirituality, its about somebody who's rational thinking sense has ben bypassed because his aesthetic sense has been triggered, Its not all about the boy, its what the boy represents tied in with a conflict between Apollo and Dionysius.
The Britten opera (made into an excellent film on here by Tony Palmer) explores that aspect more fully. It also has all the main people Aschenbach encounters Fop, Hotel Manager, Street Singer, Barber all sung by the same person reinforcing the idea that Aschenbach is being prepared for his coffin from the very start.
Today I have little sympathy with Aschenbach's pursuit of an adolescent and watching kids on beaches but I still remember my own case and what effect that had on me and I understand to a certain point.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. While I was reading this there was a battle in my mind between understanding "youth" as a metaphor/literary device and "old man staring at youth" as creepy. I wonder if Mann's contemporaries had a similar conflict while reading Death In Venice or if it would never have occur to them. Unlike his contemporaries, I was cursed with knowing he wrote about his own son in his journal which ups the uncomfortableness of Aschenbach's fixation on the boy.
I will find the opera you mentioned it sounds like a fabulous interpretation of the story. - THANK YOU
Despite our modern sensibilities, Mann's writing is stunning!
@@NerdyNurseReads yes, actually many of his contemporaries called the story âdepravedâ. Though I guess more for the homosexuality itself rather than the age gap.
it's good to know his contemporaries were giving him some side eye if only it was bc of the age gap and not the homosexuality.
Perhaps none of them and both of them. Actually maybe accidentally I experienced something so alike in this Novel by Mann myself in my personal life, it is alike formic sense. Actually I think the boy is not object, it is subjective. I didn't ever thought it is sexual or whatever, it is alike personal and non personal loosings, the boy remind of many mistakes we did, our past. I experienced it myself, every time I saw this boy in my own life, I remembered my own youth, my family and at the end of day I thought I am lost! It seems like I lost what once I always had and maybe even it is alike being jealous. He has everything and I lost exactly those things once I also had
Mann himself was himself attracted to young men right into his old age. None of them were actually children as far as I am aware. It is just a novel exploring a theme after all. Mann is one of the greatest of our modern writers. I recommend one of his larger novels to really appreciate his brilliance.
I recently read The Magician and really appreciate the look into the life of Thomas Mann. It was really interesting and I didn't realize he lived in the US for a time. I thought ToĂbĂn did a really good job with the journal and showing how Mann's private thoughts were just thoughts and not actions. And I also found the way in which Mann and his wife embraced Mann's sexuality very interesting.
Yes, one was 13âŠ
Uhmmm... Wladzo, the boy who inspired Tadzio, that he REALLY met in Venice in 1911, while he was on a vacations with his wife and his family, was 10...
And he felt "something" for his owm son, when his son was about 12 or 13 years old... so...
I wasn't really shocked by the direction in which the story went and it didn't provoke the reaction that it did in your case. You said it yourself, your "modern sensibilities". At the time the book was written, rightly or wrongly there was in certain circles a greater "appreciation" of the human form, especially in Europe and particularly in the Arts. I didn't actually assume a sexual yearning, more a yearning for youth and beauty. More on the side of the author than in the character of Gustav.
At the time I read the book I was completely unaware of Thomas Mann's possible homosexual tendencies.
Itâs been a few years since I read DiV - but Iâll give it a go.
Maybe worth knowing that Mann was inspired to write that as he himself became obsessed with a boy called Fadzio on holiday to Venice, much to his wifeâs dismay. Fadzio is like Tadzio, around the 14 mark.
I think youâve pretty much nailed it for what it means, Tadzio is the embodiment of the âconceptâ of youth. Ashenbach is drawn to his youth, not so much Tadzio. No sexual act is offered and thereâs no erotic activity detailed iirc - so I wouldnât say itâs like Lolita, however HH and Ashenbach certainly align their views over wanting to be enamoured by youth.
As you mentioned, Ashenbachâ as disgust at the end of the man who is trying to be youthful is the moment he realised his pursuit for youth and want for youth is maligned.
Is Tadzioâs age a problem in this narrative? (I think thatâs your conundrum here) For me no. Adolescence is the moment before adulthood. Spring Awakening by Wedekind also explored this as well, and is more explicit than Mann (but by modern day standards is not explicit in the slightest). Youâre bound to a certain age group when discussing adolescence, so I think Mann is just in making Tadzio that age.
If you want a âmodernâ take, I would recommend Geoff Dyerâs âJeff in Venice, Death in Varanasiâ - itâs a fairly loose retelling but examines the philosophical side of Mann.
Why thank you sir đ§ for the thorough breakdown! And for a most excellent recommendation.
And yes, itâs hard for me to read about a full on adult obsessing, lusting, fawning over a young person. I struggle to let go of the ick factor of Ashenbach and Tadzio. Would a contemporary reader have felt the same? I think youth and adult have had different definitions throughout time. When you only lived to 35 where does the line for adolescence fall. Does this play into all Ashenbachâs philosophizing? Have the goal posts moved since 1912?
All in all, it was a very conflicting read for me.
@@NerdyNurseReadsI donât know what Mannâs-contemporary would have thought, but I donât think they would see this as a gross taboo. I would assume people would react in the same way as âCall me by your nameâ, I donât think thatâs lambasted as grotesque in the presentation of Elioâs relationship.
Well now I have to read Call Me By Your name to find out
@@NerdyNurseReads Do it NOW
I have to finish the Claudia Piñeiro first!!!
I have read most of Thomas Manns stories and some of his letters and diaries. He brings up beutiful young boys alot and he fawns over his son Klaus.
It is pretty much agreed upon, that he was at least bisexuall if not closeted homosexual. I find it very hard to tell where the asthetic obsession with youth ends and the pedo stuff begins with him. At the very least I have never heard anyone say or alluding that he did anything to a child (his children did talk and write alot about him and how bad of a father he was).
Sorry for the bad english. I am just trying to say, that it is very hard to tell with him.
Also, I recommend his short stories!
I recently finished The Magician and that combine with everyone's comments is making me want to pick up more Mann sooner rather than later.
Please donât dismiss this sad story as just another âHeâs a pedophile! Gross!â But I like that you praise the writing itself.
Iâm not ready to dismiss Mannâs writing. Thereâs some truly wonderful passages in Death In Venice and some much to dissect and discuss. But part of that discussion is how uncomfortable it feels reading about an older man obsessing over a young boy.
Get rid of the pedophilia -wasnât relevant or even thematic. No, I didnât like Gustav either-grumpy SOB-very Apollonian. You can read this in so many ways so I understand youâre feeling perplexed. Personally, Iâve chosen to focus on the dangerous aspect of Tadzio-to me he is deathâŠand he beckons Gustav into that realm as he degrades himself- very Dionysian.
So, is there a subtext about beauty, death the degradation of art and ultimately danger?
YES, definitely watch the movie-Iâve seen it 3x!
I love this take on Tadzio!! I think what I'm loving the most about A Death in Venice is how much discord we can have around this one, relatively short, story.
I will check out the movie!!
ok haven't read the book or seen the movie so maybe shouldn't reply at all these stories of obsession are usually sad whether erotic or homoerotic and often end in grief as in the famous Blue Angel film yes it's creepy when there's a big age difference luckily never had the desire to pursue anyone much younger or underage or engage in (serious) stalking but well familiar with obsessive love/infatuation the Professor's Pupil by Iris Murdoch is a good treatment of (nonsexual) obsession with a higher-status person and only mann I've read is buddenbrooks which is dull dull dullâ
I'll check out The Professor's Pupil! Thx
Buddenbrooks is, like most of Mann's longer books, an absolute classic. He is one of the great modern writers. But each to his own I guess.
yes it's just a matter of opinion like almost everything elseâ
I'm a writer myself, and one of my pieces was compared to death in venice by reviewers from a publication a day ago. I liked that novella. I am drawn to stories with hebephilia quite a bit and some of my short stories deal with it as well. I did like Gustav because he struggled with desire and I could relate to that.