Re-watching this scene for the first time in over two decades and I can't believe how many great points of foreshadowing are packed into just a few minutes.
And this is the moment of the Big Reveal...the Shadows, the Vorlons, and the great conflict that swept the galaxy a thousand years ago, and will soon do so again. And Sheridan is about to step right into the middle of it.
@@clockywork Kosh tried to position the Vorlons towards good because he was the last link for them and was their "conscience". He was all of their emotional ties to the younger races, that the Vorlons were enigmatic and while mysterious did so in a parent-ish manner (Kosh appeared to G'Kar as his father and later as he was dying, Sheridan's). As he was dying he regretted his species actions to come (also growing fond of those around him) and knew it would just lead them on a path that would repeat the cycle warning John because he knew the Vorlons' respect for Kosh allowed him to guide his own race which would quickly backfire into rage without him. And lo and behold he was replaced by Ulkesh who was arrogant, hateful and self-gratifying, symbolising the change in the Vorlons as a race to how they would present themselves. Kosh's death saying to Sheridan "When the time comes at Z'Ha'Dum I will not be there" meant he would not be there and consequently the Vorlon race would not be there for them from that point onwards after Z'Ha'Dum and resolving of the Shadow War (which had to be concluded by Lorien).
Such a fantastic story. This episode like most of season 2 scares the pants off me. That feeling of impending doom, the dread that Delenn and G’Kar feel over Z’ Ha’ Dum, G’Kar as he knows nothing much except it’s a dangerous world, and Delenn because she knows the truth of the place. Sheridan caught right in the middle and realising that what he knew was about 5 on the scale. Delenn and Kosh show him that that scale goes to a million.
It also set up how the Vorlons wanted to portray themselves to the younger races, as a savior and guardian, before they wised up and realized that the conflict between the Vorlons and Shadows was an ongoing battle of philosophies. I really like all the layers to the mythology of B5.
What’s more, Kosh basically showed him the Icarus in order to get him to hate the Shadows. He was a really manipulative bastard, though he did eventually see the error of his ways and the ways of his people...
Mind you, at least the Vorlons don't usually instigate massive wars. Until they whip out that Planet Killer, and decided to "cleanse", arbitrarily without regard to innocents.
The Vorlon may not see it as propaganda, but their sincere perspective on the conflict. To those who believe in constructive order and discipline, the Shadows are just a wildly destructive power that must be resisted and fought. The Shadows do in no way hide their enthusiasm for chaos and strife, which in their philosophy is necessary for growth and evolution. It should not be denied that they and their ways seem more ruthless and sinister than the policies of the Vorlon. The Vorlon expect obedience, like strict parents, but they do not generally micromanage the younger races. The problem is that the Vorlon and the Shadows alike have come to see their philosophical disagreement as a great game where the younger races are ultimately just pawns, not so much pupils to be taught, guided and cared for.
Special Order 937: Icarus rerouted to new coordinates, planet codename Alpha Omega 3. Absolute highest priority, return alien technology to Earth for study. Crew Expendable.
You are not far off with that analogy, since IPX had a lot of questionable shit going on (that biomechanical weapon thing in season 1, their involvement in the Thirdspace affair, and their sending a live human subject into a Shadow Vessel on Ganymede). I also think the tagged the Shadow Vessel they found on Mars with a beacon, hence how they found Z'Ha'Dum in the first place. God also only knows how much involvement they had with the Omega-X destroyer program, you know those Omegas with Shadow skins on them and upgraded beam weapons.
@@veeeks2938 originally as I recall JMS had ideas for a show about evil space archaeology and a show about galactic wars and then realized they can both be the same show.
@@lucasbachmann JMS also helmed another show before B5 also using the exact same CGI and also futuristic. You may have heard of it Captain Power and the Soldiers of Tomorrow.
One of the best scenes in all of B5. My other favorite is also from this episode: Morden asks Vir "Whar do you want?" and Vir's reply: " - as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price."
No no no! You got it all wrong! you got the episode right but the line: "I would like to look into your lifeless eyes and wave....like this (silly hand waive)" 😆
The Vorlons and Shadows felt like the youngest of the first ones, the least advanced of them and the most still attached to their old empires and influences. The other First Ones weren't large armies, but a few single ships, like remnants left behind to observe that had to be convinced to help. Given the build up it seems the majority of the first ones and all but one individual of the really old ones had left already with no intention of returning or concerning themselves with the affairs of the younger species.
[00:27] - _"the First Ones went away .. All but one"_ - Interestingly even Kosh was wrong in this because Lorien, the very first of the First Ones, was still on Z'ha'dum.
The context is for the players in the 1000 years ago war with the Shadows. Lorien didn't participate. The other first ones that Marcus and Ivanova found went away - but didn't go beyond the rim like most of the first ones did a 10 thousand years ago. Only the Vorlons still acted like a galactic power albeit a mysterious one.
I think that all of the First Ones who remained knew who had stayed and where they were. Delenn hadn't been told the whole truth, just what the Vorlons thought she needed to know.
Any substantial operational failure in the Shadow War could potentially lead to the death of hundreds of billions, or even hreater numbers of sapients. This is a far more severe outcome than Delenn's statement that "billions" would die. Such underestimation of magnitudes is somewhat understandable, and not uncommon in science fiction scriptwriting. This is primarily because humans in their daily lives today do not need to consider such immense numbers of sapient beings. In Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, there's an instance where Odo mentions that the Dominion War has resulted in "billions" of casualties. Logically, one might expect Odo to cite a much larger figure. Similarly, in the "From the Ashes" DLC of Mass Effect 3, Javik suggests that failing to halt the Reapers in the present cycle could lead to one trillion casualties. Given that the Reapers are programmed to systematically annihilate every technologically advanced organic civilization in the Milky Way, and possibly even in other galaxies, it seems illogical for Javik to have cited a potential casualty figure of only one trillion intelligent beings. This kind of thing appears to be more about convenience in writing and speaking than about accurate and logical consistency. But of course, there are many people who simply will not care.
No ship will ever be called Icarus in real life, at least I hope we know that's too much bad mojo... but it took covid for most of us to wash our hands...
I wonder why Delenn thought that none of the other First Ones were still around, when apparently that was not the case, and it seems like she should have known it. Because of Sigma 957 etc.
The Vorlons were always a mysterious and obviously very powerful and dangerous race. It wouldn't have been a shock to me at all finding out they were old ones. I also don't think wearing encounter suits would keep the Shadows from figuring out who and what the Vorlons were.
The encounter suits weren't to keep the Shadows from knowing who they were (they weren't hiding their identity as Vorlons, after all) it was to prevent _everyone else_ from seeing the Vorlons, because all the other races would immediately know them. Not as Vorlons, but as angelic beings from their various religions and mythologies. That was what happened when Kosh had to leave his encounter suit to save Sheridan from falling... _everyone present_ saw Kosh as an angel.
The Shadows know, the suits are to hide from the younger races. The genetic and social engineering they did to be considered "angels" by all the younger races makes the suits essential.
@@Solfury It wasn't entirely his connection to the shadows, it was that the Centari were one of the few races not involved in the previous conflict and the Shadows had never exercised any influence over their culture.
Not just ONE - the first ones on the planet below that B-5 orbits still exist, and they were not alone. There were others as well that fought against the shadows.
You are talking about Epsilon 5 and the Great Machine right? Was that ever confirmed in canon? I thought JMS left them as a mystery. I mean why didn't they use the GM on the Shadows on their attack on B5? A lot of unanswered questions on the race and extent of capabilities of the GM and Zathras clones. ::Spoiler::: In the new animated canon movie the GM has like 10k of Zathras clones produced, but still no answers as to who the creator race is or was...I do no think it is the Zathras race.
From what i remember there was another race that attacked the planet where the great machine was. The minbari who took over from the dying controller/guide of the machine destroyed them. I think he also kept the said that he would keep the machine as a haven for the future. Wich is probably the reason why he didn't direct? the machines weapons to fire on the shadows. But Zafras might be wrong.
@@neil999ish Correct that was season 1. I think JMS had plans for Epsilon 5 but never fleshed it or its history out further than he did, clearly whoever they were they were a first one class race(see recent animated movie written by JMS). I think the Minbari's name was Draal and it had extended his life a little but he was going to perish in a bit. I still think JMS should have gave a reason either in the series or the latest animated movie(well more so than it was) as to why it could not be used in some capacity against the Shadows directly or indirectly. ::SPOILERS:: In the new canon animated movie the Great Machine has cloned thousands and thousands of clones of Zathras. It can also track and monitor people and events across all time and space and even alternate realites.
Just imagine how funny it would be if the Reapers from Mass Effect suddenly appeared, started to say: "We are the Vanguard of your destruction...", then either the Vorlons OR Shadows (or ANY other First Ones) obliterated the Reapers with BARELY any effort like it was merely an afterthought, then asked: "wait, did someone start to say something, or was that merely a primitive unevolved ant?" Hahaha.
It's in the context of the alliance against the Shadows. In the war a thousand years ago the few first ones left walked away and had zero interaction with the younger races. Only the Vorlons remained as a mysterious galactic power. That's why Marcus and Ivanova needed to find the remaining First Ones - they didn't go beyond the rim like most of the first ones did 10 thousand years ago but weren't pretending to be a galactic power with ambassadors either.
"There's still one of them left - where?" Don't you think Sheridan was bit slow on the uptake here? He's already seen how advanced and ahead of anybody else the Vorlon ships are.
Has anyone notice that the forlorn kosh and the Borg Queen at the end of Star Trek Picard are simulate to kosher encounter suit and the Borg became part of the federation as gairdisnd of the gate and the cordons come from it, in one episode we saw cosh come out of his encounter suit in Babylon 5 episode I can not remember which one, but the Borg and the q race are from many races and the q race can appear as anything are omnipotent and ancient, and first appeared on Star Trek John de lances q speared first as a ball of bright light, the same thing as in Babylon 5 in the beginning programme where the coloured dr saw the light when kosher encounter suit was opened sounds odd eh?
This scene made the Shadow War sound far more cool than it eventually turned out to be. I was promised "the greatest nightmare of our time", and in the end it turned out to be nothing but a squabble at a PTA meeting.
The ending of the war was forced on Straczynski by the studio that canned the show. He had to forcefully wrap up Seasons 4 and 5 inside now only half of the single 4th season remaining. The end of the Shadow war, the civil war conflict, etc., all were rushed...and Claudia Christian left to pursue another gig. Then, as the show ended, all of a sudden funding for Season 5 re-appeared. Improvised fill-in plots were dumped in as the original story ark had been completed and done. The Fall of Centauri Prime ark was the plot line one that had been left untouched, which is why it was the only interesting bit of the entire 5th season. Explanations aside, yeah, I agree, the end of the war was a sad whimper and Season 5 quite forgettable...which is why I re-edited Season 5 for my personal viewing into a shorter, yet concise sequence, which links very nicely with the Babylon 5: A Call to Arms movie.
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Great show. Though, if you really think about it, while their methods were cruel, the Shadows were correct. The entire conflict of the series only resulted in the younger races advancing themselves.
Sheridan and Delenn would later uncover a plan by the Shadows to drive refugees into a region of space and then wipe them out. That was how they won their first victory. How was that supposed to have help the Younger Races grow? If Kosh or Lorian were to say that the Vorlons broke trust first, I'd believe them because their actions showed that they were honorable beings. Other than telling Sheridan a more complete version of the story that conveniently cast themselves as the good guys, what have the Shadows and their minions done to earn anyone's trust, yours included? When Sheridan expressed revulsion towards what the Shadows had done, to Anna as well as in general, they dropped all pretense of friendliness and told him that he would do as they said whether he liked it or not. Does that sound like beings who wanted the Younger Race to grow or like being who wanted to keep their grip on them? It's no exaggeration to say that Kosh gave his life twice to help Sheridan with his plans. Can you give me one example of the Shadows making sacrifices for the Younger Races? When the Vorlons brought out their planet killer, instead of appealing to the other First Ones or going to B5 to offer help, the Shadows started destroying planets themselves. Once again, how was that supposed to help the Younger Races? It was no longer a case of one side being right and the other wrong. That's why the remaining First Ones had withdrawn from the conflict until the Younger Races were ready to say, "screw you, we're going to find our own way."
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@@ethenallen1388 This was all explained during the episode Kazadum when Sheridan went to the Shadows homeworld. Their proxi 'Justin' flat out said that some races are lost, but those who survive are 'better, stronger' through surviving the conflict(s).
In the audio commentary JMS recorded for that episode, he said that evil never sees itself as evil. It always tries to rationalize itself with claims of noble purposes. I have no doubt that he was referring to the Shadows and the atrocities they were committing. If you insist on believing that the Shadows were truly noble being who still cared about helping the younger races to ascend, that is your choice, but Kosh would agree to help Sheridan by ordering an attack on the Shadows' forces knowing full well that they would kill him in response, he waited for them in his quarters, and sent a message to Sheridan apologizing for the way he acted, admitted that he was afraid and that it was time for him to stop interfering and let Sheridan fight the war his way. Do you really believe that Mordon, Justin, the thing they made Anna into, or their masters would ever agree to sacrifice themselves?
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@@ethenallen1388 I never said they were noble. I said their actions got the results they ultimately wanted. They caused wars to force the younger races to adapt and improve themselves. They were evil, doesn't mean they were incorrect about the results.
You are confusing the First Ones with the Ancient Ones. Delenn clearly states (just seconds before the clip shown here begins) that there are some Ancients left around in hiding.
RIP Mira Furlan 7 September 1955 - 20 January 2021
Re-watching this scene for the first time in over two decades and I can't believe how many great points of foreshadowing are packed into just a few minutes.
I miss Mira. RIP
She and the others gave us a lot to remember them by, rip indeed
I miss her too. Delenn and Londo were the ones who got me started with Babylon Five.
And this is the moment of the Big Reveal...the Shadows, the Vorlons, and the great conflict that swept the galaxy a thousand years ago, and will soon do so again. And Sheridan is about to step right into the middle of it.
And it's a lie. Kosh is playing them still
@@sasquatchycowboy5585 I disagree bro. Kosh seems to be one of the better Vorlons
@@clockywork Kosh tried to position the Vorlons towards good because he was the last link for them and was their "conscience". He was all of their emotional ties to the younger races, that the Vorlons were enigmatic and while mysterious did so in a parent-ish manner (Kosh appeared to G'Kar as his father and later as he was dying, Sheridan's). As he was dying he regretted his species actions to come (also growing fond of those around him) and knew it would just lead them on a path that would repeat the cycle warning John because he knew the Vorlons' respect for Kosh allowed him to guide his own race which would quickly backfire into rage without him. And lo and behold he was replaced by Ulkesh who was arrogant, hateful and self-gratifying, symbolising the change in the Vorlons as a race to how they would present themselves. Kosh's death saying to Sheridan "When the time comes at Z'Ha'Dum I will not be there" meant he would not be there and consequently the Vorlon race would not be there for them from that point onwards after Z'Ha'Dum and resolving of the Shadow War (which had to be concluded by Lorien).
@@sasquatchycowboy5585 what was the lie exactly? kosh told very little
Not the real big reveal, that comes from THE first one.
The Vorlons are just as manipulative and dangerous as the Shadows.
Such a fantastic story. This episode like most of season 2 scares the pants off me. That feeling of impending doom, the dread that Delenn and G’Kar feel over Z’ Ha’ Dum, G’Kar as he knows nothing much except it’s a dangerous world, and Delenn because she knows the truth of the place. Sheridan caught right in the middle and realising that what he knew was about 5 on the scale. Delenn and Kosh show him that that scale goes to a million.
Similar to the expanse.
Delen not knows the truth - she knows what vorlons said. And that fact scared me even more.
@@jairuskteo Not true really , and even if it was , The Expanse would be the one Similar , to Babylon5 .
So the war was not to defeat the shadows. It was to purge them and their folowers.
The same dread I feel when I think trump could be president again...
0:50 another great set-up, for when we actually see how the Vorlons appear to everyone... and sometimes to no one at all.
Ye, poor londo.
It also set up how the Vorlons wanted to portray themselves to the younger races, as a savior and guardian, before they wised up and realized that the conflict between the Vorlons and Shadows was an ongoing battle of philosophies. I really like all the layers to the mythology of B5.
The Vorlons were themselves a young race. They manipulated the other races to make themselves acceptable
A year later we learn that almost everything Delenn is saying is Vorlon propaganda and that they aren’t any better than the Shadows.
It's like the Monty Python sketch about extremism, but a drama in space instead of a comedy.
What’s more, Kosh basically showed him the Icarus in order to get him to hate the Shadows. He was a really manipulative bastard, though he did eventually see the error of his ways and the ways of his people...
Mind you, at least the Vorlons don't usually instigate massive wars. Until they whip out that Planet Killer, and decided to "cleanse", arbitrarily without regard to innocents.
@@MrFlashpoint1978 I think the Vorlons were so "heartbroken" when Kosh died they just thought; fuck it all don't care anymore.
The Vorlon may not see it as propaganda, but their sincere perspective on the conflict. To those who believe in constructive order and discipline, the Shadows are just a wildly destructive power that must be resisted and fought. The Shadows do in no way hide their enthusiasm for chaos and strife, which in their philosophy is necessary for growth and evolution. It should not be denied that they and their ways seem more ruthless and sinister than the policies of the Vorlon. The Vorlon expect obedience, like strict parents, but they do not generally micromanage the younger races. The problem is that the Vorlon and the Shadows alike have come to see their philosophical disagreement as a great game where the younger races are ultimately just pawns, not so much pupils to be taught, guided and cared for.
HaHa Kosh 8D chessed Delenn into being a honey pot for a talented Human commander
No way this could have set everything up better. So well played!
That's what happens when you have a talented writer who is capable of thinking ahead and writing all the story beats out at once.
The shadows scared the hell out of me !!!!!!!
Special Order 937:
Icarus rerouted to new coordinates, planet codename Alpha Omega 3.
Absolute highest priority, return alien technology to Earth for study.
Crew Expendable.
You are not far off with that analogy, since IPX had a lot of questionable shit going on (that biomechanical weapon thing in season 1, their involvement in the Thirdspace affair, and their sending a live human subject into a Shadow Vessel on Ganymede). I also think the tagged the Shadow Vessel they found on Mars with a beacon, hence how they found Z'Ha'Dum in the first place.
God also only knows how much involvement they had with the Omega-X destroyer program, you know those Omegas with Shadow skins on them and upgraded beam weapons.
@@veeeks2938 originally as I recall JMS had ideas for a show about evil space archaeology and a show about galactic wars and then realized they can both be the same show.
@@lucasbachmann JMS also helmed another show before B5 also using the exact same CGI and also futuristic. You may have heard of it Captain Power and the Soldiers of Tomorrow.
One of the best scenes in all of B5. My other favorite is also from this episode: Morden asks Vir "Whar do you want?" and Vir's reply: " - as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price."
👋😀
@@CyberBeep_kenshi HUMOR: good robot!
@@NPzed Statement: it warms my processors to see i am not forgotten
No no no! You got it all wrong! you got the episode right but the line: "I would like to look into your lifeless eyes and wave....like this (silly hand waive)" 😆
@@dgracey01 He did get his wish though. A good parable on What you wish for. Lol.
I loved the look in Sheridan's eyes as he realizes that he's standing next to a being who is likely older than the Earth itself.
Not yet, that's Lorien.
Nah not older than earth…that’d be billions
Delenn says all the First Ones except the Vorlons went away but, later on, a number of First Ones were found to help.
The Vorlons weren't about to share that information. Obviously.
The Vorlons and Shadows felt like the youngest of the first ones, the least advanced of them and the most still attached to their old empires and influences. The other First Ones weren't large armies, but a few single ships, like remnants left behind to observe that had to be convinced to help. Given the build up it seems the majority of the first ones and all but one individual of the really old ones had left already with no intention of returning or concerning themselves with the affairs of the younger species.
Vorlon propaganda that gets disproven later on.
@@ireallyreallyhategoogle Oh, now that's an interesting idea. The Vorlons just lied about that. Yes, very interesting.
@@odysseusrex5908 if you recall the second ambassador Kosh was a nasty piece of work, so it would fit the Vorlons superiority complex.
That moment you find out your friend is a First One.
One ring to rule them all.
Ring?
@@VulcanOnWheels the Lord of the Rings.
Z 'Ha'Dum
And in the darkness bind them.
@@Redwaltz4 In the land of Zha'ha'dum where the Shadows lie.
[00:27] - _"the First Ones went away .. All but one"_ - Interestingly even Kosh was wrong in this because Lorien, the very first of the First Ones, was still on Z'ha'dum.
Vorlon propaganda.
The context is for the players in the 1000 years ago war with the Shadows. Lorien didn't participate. The other first ones that Marcus and Ivanova found went away - but didn't go beyond the rim like most of the first ones did a 10 thousand years ago. Only the Vorlons still acted like a galactic power albeit a mysterious one.
I think that all of the First Ones who remained knew who had stayed and where they were. Delenn hadn't been told the whole truth, just what the Vorlons thought she needed to know.
The Vorlons were lying in order to maintain control. "Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi."
I never quite understood who the first ones were? Or Lorien? Didn't quite understand who he was?
Some say that Zac is still standing there waiting
Sheridan...learnnnnn... 🥶
Thanks for this episode
This scene paints a very different picture than how the Vorlons ended up behaving in early season 4....
One : Lorien
An ancient race: Loriens race
...true from a certain point of view
Mr Morden dislikes this video
Any substantial operational failure in the Shadow War could potentially lead to the death of hundreds of billions, or even hreater numbers of sapients. This is a far more severe outcome than Delenn's statement that "billions" would die. Such underestimation of magnitudes is somewhat understandable, and not uncommon in science fiction scriptwriting. This is primarily because humans in their daily lives today do not need to consider such immense numbers of sapient beings. In Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, there's an instance where Odo mentions that the Dominion War has resulted in "billions" of casualties. Logically, one might expect Odo to cite a much larger figure. Similarly, in the "From the Ashes" DLC of Mass Effect 3, Javik suggests that failing to halt the Reapers in the present cycle could lead to one trillion casualties. Given that the Reapers are programmed to systematically annihilate every technologically advanced organic civilization in the Milky Way, and possibly even in other galaxies, it seems illogical for Javik to have cited a potential casualty figure of only one trillion intelligent beings. This kind of thing appears to be more about convenience in writing and speaking than about accurate and logical consistency. But of course, there are many people who simply will not care.
Who wants this show to be re-imagined?
Never poke around where you aren't supposed to....
Kosh, the Promethean.
This was a fantastic scene. I also love the scene with Lorien where he's all like "I am the first one."
One thing I know about an enemy..... They may leave, but they will ALWAYS LEAVE ONE OR A FEW BEHIND TO JUST WATCH💯
3:55 -ish Sheridan's "Coventry Moment" :-(
Best sci-fi series ever! Next is DS9.
No ship will ever be called Icarus in real life, at least I hope we know that's too much bad mojo... but it took covid for most of us to wash our hands...
I remember this Episode well . We SEE the Face of a Shadow . The weird Spiders that live in both Real Space and Hyperspace interchangeably .
God what a fucking great show.
I miss Mira Furlan aka delenn. R.I.P Mira Furlan
Cool projector
I wonder why Delenn thought that none of the other First Ones were still around, when apparently that was not the case, and it seems like she should have known it. Because of Sigma 957 etc.
The Vorlons were always a mysterious and obviously very powerful and dangerous race. It wouldn't have been a shock to me at all finding out they were old ones. I also don't think wearing encounter suits would keep the Shadows from figuring out who and what the Vorlons were.
The encounter suits weren't to keep the Shadows from knowing who they were (they weren't hiding their identity as Vorlons, after all) it was to prevent _everyone else_ from seeing the Vorlons, because all the other races would immediately know them. Not as Vorlons, but as angelic beings from their various religions and mythologies. That was what happened when Kosh had to leave his encounter suit to save Sheridan from falling... _everyone present_ saw Kosh as an angel.
@AaronLitz Everyone except Londo, who saw nothing, because of his connection to the Shadows.
The Shadows know, the suits are to hide from the younger races.
The genetic and social engineering they did to be considered "angels" by all the younger races makes the suits essential.
@@Solfury It wasn't entirely his connection to the shadows, it was that the Centari were one of the few races not involved in the previous conflict and the Shadows had never exercised any influence over their culture.
Not just ONE - the first ones on the planet below that B-5 orbits still exist, and they were not alone. There were others as well that fought against the shadows.
You are talking about Epsilon 5 and the Great Machine right? Was that ever confirmed in canon? I thought JMS left them as a mystery. I mean why didn't they use the GM on the Shadows on their attack on B5? A lot of unanswered questions on the race and extent of capabilities of the GM and Zathras clones. ::Spoiler::: In the new animated canon movie the GM has like 10k of Zathras clones produced, but still no answers as to who the creator race is or was...I do no think it is the Zathras race.
From what i remember there was another race that attacked the planet where the great machine was. The minbari who took over from the dying controller/guide of the machine destroyed them.
I think he also kept the said that he would keep the machine as a haven for the future. Wich is probably the reason why he didn't direct? the machines weapons to fire on the shadows. But Zafras might be wrong.
@@neil999ish Correct that was season 1. I think JMS had plans for Epsilon 5 but never fleshed it or its history out further than he did, clearly whoever they were they were a first one class race(see recent animated movie written by JMS). I think the Minbari's name was Draal and it had extended his life a little but he was going to perish in a bit. I still think JMS should have gave a reason either in the series or the latest animated movie(well more so than it was) as to why it could not be used in some capacity against the Shadows directly or indirectly. ::SPOILERS:: In the new canon animated movie the Great Machine has cloned thousands and thousands of clones of Zathras. It can also track and monitor people and events across all time and space and even alternate realites.
@@joerussell9574 Zafras must watch series again, as Zafras said 'Zafras memory not as it was'. Lol.
@@neil999ish Lol :)!
Awesome sci-fi series!
Hello Mr. Johnson,
Thank you for the upload! Please correct the title? I don't think all The First One's like to get "wet". LOL! Thanks in advance. 😊
Like "TNG," and "DS9", WWOR in New York.
i will give B5 credit the storyline from the pilot episode until the ending episode was well thought out even with cast changes.
This looks excellent what episode is this?
Recognised? Recognised by who??
............................................................................................................Everyone.
Zog!
This scene is from S02E16, not S02E06.
Just imagine how funny it would be if the Reapers from Mass Effect suddenly appeared, started to say: "We are the Vanguard of your destruction...", then either the Vorlons OR Shadows (or ANY other First Ones) obliterated the Reapers with BARELY any effort like it was merely an afterthought, then asked: "wait, did someone start to say something, or was that merely a primitive unevolved ant?" Hahaha.
I never understood why they say exept for one...the shadows and vorlons are part of the first ones and they are still here?
It's in the context of the alliance against the Shadows. In the war a thousand years ago the few first ones left walked away and had zero interaction with the younger races. Only the Vorlons remained as a mysterious galactic power. That's why Marcus and Ivanova needed to find the remaining First Ones - they didn't go beyond the rim like most of the first ones did 10 thousand years ago but weren't pretending to be a galactic power with ambassadors either.
The one instance in which John Sheridan comes across as a tad slow off the mark. =^[.]^=
Sooo, something that occurs to me, HOW did the Vorlons GET this perspective?
Did they have someone there who was their own agent?
Maybe the shadows livestreamed this on their First Ones CZcams.
Watch the show. They can break off pieces of their consciousness.
A nice lie by the vorlons and their puppets.
That moment the camera got a glimp of the shadows next to Morden.......
that was super creepy 😳
And that is why Morden had to be released. If there was revelation. It would have led to destruction.
"There's still one of them left - where?"
Don't you think Sheridan was bit slow on the uptake here?
He's already seen how advanced and ahead of anybody else the Vorlon ships are.
This was in my recommendations. What show or movie is this someone help me
An oldie, but a goodie. ‘Babylon 5’.
This show is J Michael Strazynski's Babylon 5
The best show ever made, to be seen from the pilot through the final episode in unbroken order.
Babilon 5 . Season2. " In The Shadow Of Z'Ha'Dum"
Its a little silly how small the b5 milky way was in retrospect.
Has anyone notice that the forlorn kosh and the Borg Queen at the end of Star Trek Picard are simulate to kosher encounter suit and the Borg became part of the federation as gairdisnd of the gate and the cordons come from it, in one episode we saw cosh come out of his encounter suit in Babylon 5 episode I can not remember which one, but the Borg and the q race are from many races and the q race can appear as anything are omnipotent and ancient, and first appeared on Star Trek John de lances q speared first as a ball of bright light, the same thing as in Babylon 5 in the beginning programme where the coloured dr saw the light when kosher encounter suit was opened sounds odd eh?
This scene made the Shadow War sound far more cool than it eventually turned out to be. I was promised "the greatest nightmare of our time", and in the end it turned out to be nothing but a squabble at a PTA meeting.
Great show, still re watch every now and then. Still don't like the ending of the war, still don't like season 5.
The ending of the war was forced on Straczynski by the studio that canned the show. He had to forcefully wrap up Seasons 4 and 5 inside now only half of the single 4th season remaining. The end of the Shadow war, the civil war conflict, etc., all were rushed...and Claudia Christian left to pursue another gig. Then, as the show ended, all of a sudden funding for Season 5 re-appeared. Improvised fill-in plots were dumped in as the original story ark had been completed and done. The Fall of Centauri Prime ark was the plot line one that had been left untouched, which is why it was the only interesting bit of the entire 5th season. Explanations aside, yeah, I agree, the end of the war was a sad whimper and Season 5 quite forgettable...which is why I re-edited Season 5 for my personal viewing into a shorter, yet concise sequence, which links very nicely with the Babylon 5: A Call to Arms movie.
Great show. Though, if you really think about it, while their methods were cruel, the Shadows were correct. The entire conflict of the series only resulted in the younger races advancing themselves.
Sheridan and Delenn would later uncover a plan by the Shadows to drive refugees into a region of space and then wipe them out. That was how they won their first victory. How was that supposed to have help the Younger Races grow?
If Kosh or Lorian were to say that the Vorlons broke trust first, I'd believe them because their actions showed that they were honorable beings. Other than telling Sheridan a more complete version of the story that conveniently cast themselves as the good guys, what have the Shadows and their minions done to earn anyone's trust, yours included?
When Sheridan expressed revulsion towards what the Shadows had done, to Anna as well as in general, they dropped all pretense of friendliness and told him that he would do as they said whether he liked it or not. Does that sound like beings who wanted the Younger Race to grow or like being who wanted to keep their grip on them?
It's no exaggeration to say that Kosh gave his life twice to help Sheridan with his plans. Can you give me one example of the Shadows making sacrifices for the Younger Races?
When the Vorlons brought out their planet killer, instead of appealing to the other First Ones or going to B5 to offer help, the Shadows started destroying planets themselves. Once again, how was that supposed to help the Younger Races?
It was no longer a case of one side being right and the other wrong. That's why the remaining First Ones had withdrawn from the conflict until the Younger Races were ready to say, "screw you, we're going to find our own way."
@@ethenallen1388 This was all explained during the episode Kazadum when Sheridan went to the Shadows homeworld. Their proxi 'Justin' flat out said that some races are lost, but those who survive are 'better, stronger' through surviving the conflict(s).
In the audio commentary JMS recorded for that episode, he said that evil never sees itself as evil. It always tries to rationalize itself with claims of noble purposes. I have no doubt that he was referring to the Shadows and the atrocities they were committing.
If you insist on believing that the Shadows were truly noble being who still cared about helping the younger races to ascend, that is your choice, but Kosh would agree to help Sheridan by ordering an attack on the Shadows' forces knowing full well that they would kill him in response, he waited for them in his quarters, and sent a message to Sheridan apologizing for the way he acted, admitted that he was afraid and that it was time for him to stop interfering and let Sheridan fight the war his way.
Do you really believe that Mordon, Justin, the thing they made Anna into, or their masters would ever agree to sacrifice themselves?
@@ethenallen1388 I never said they were noble. I said their actions got the results they ultimately wanted. They caused wars to force the younger races to adapt and improve themselves. They were evil, doesn't mean they were incorrect about the results.
actually was many left including Lorien
The Babylon5 series is a good one. 😅
To the knowledge of Delenn, Kosh was the last of the first ones. Lorien suggested that there may be others. Ivanova found them
You are confusing the First Ones with the Ancient Ones. Delenn clearly states (just seconds before the clip shown here begins) that there are some Ancients left around in hiding.