Glass Onion & Knives Out: The Archetypes of Rian Johnson Whodunits
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
- Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery (titled onscreen as simply Glass Onion) is a 2022 whodunit film written and directed by Rian Johnson, who produced it with Ram Bergman. The sequel to Knives Out (2019), Daniel Craig reprises his role as Benoit Blanc, a master detective taking on a new case. The film features a new ensemble cast consisting of Edward Norton, Janelle Monáe, Kathryn Hahn, Leslie Odom Jr., Jessica Henwick, Madelyn Cline, Kate Hudson, and Dave Bautista. The title of the film comes from the Beatles song "Glass Onion".
Glass Onion is now available for streaming on Netflix.
Credits/links/references:
→ "Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery" (2022): Courtesy of Netflix
→ "Knives Out" (2019): Lionsgate
0:00 Intro
1:13 Motivation for this topic
3:08 Protagonists/Heroines
5:31 Villains/Killers
7:38 Blondes Just Want To Have Fun… and Money!
8:30 The Pretend-Ally
9:53 The Internet-Fixated Gen-Z
11:01 The Golden Girl
11:49 Noah Segan
12:26 JGL
13:17 The leftovers
14:42 Final Thoughts
Fair Use Act Disclaimer:
Copyright Disclaimer under section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for “fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing.
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I like how both movies contained portraits during the denouement. Harlan's portrait turned to a knowing smile when Marta secured her inheritance. Helen burned the Mona Lisa and copied her expression in the closing shot.
"Over the Shoulder Portrait (of the Killer)" is definitely a thing in both films.
I think it's legit that archetypes carry through the films since the plot isn't the connective tissue. Elements we like in the first one should totally work (and can be subverted) in the follow up.
I do think that Marta Cabrera's ethnicity is plot-important where Cassandra Brand's was not. Janelle Monáe brings an added layer to the themes but nothing in the script would preclude an actor of any ethnicity in the role. I'm glad it was Janelle Monáe because she was incredible.
@@hanonondricek411 Agreed. Janelle should get nominated for every award under the sun.
Agree completely!!
Interestingly, once Helen assumed Andi's identity, she continuously strikes the Mona Lisa pose, beginning at the pier when they all met up to board the boat. We finally grasped the significance of the pose at the movie's conclusion, but upon re-watches, it becomes apparent that Helen's inscrutable posing and facial expressions were an ever-present nod to the painting.
I absolutely loved her Mona Lisa smile. The "My House" in Knives Out made me laugh put loud though. Brilliant beat.
Can't wait for the third.
I'd actually argue that Meg and Whiskey are closer parallels across the movies. Both are seemingly sympathetic to the protagonist (and by that I mean how genuine they are is somewhat cloudy): Meg is constantly making efforts to be supportive of Marta up until it looks like she might lose her tuition money. Meanwhile, Whiskey makes a point to talk to Helen/"Andi" and tell her that what was done to her was wrong, but like the others isn't willing to go against Miles to help Helen. They are also both the most affected by the "second" deaths, with Meg being informed of Fran's death at the end and clearly upset by it and Whiskey mourning Duke for the rest of the movie after he dies. So, they're both the most sympathetic out of the "money" group, while still not willing to fully give up their comfort to do the right thing.
that's exactly what i thought!! and i think their characters add necessary nuance to the group of rich evil people in their respective movies -- it's easy to hate a rich person who's doing bad things when they're also using language and behavior that we know is shitty. what's harder to condemn is the harmful actions by those that seem (and may actually have) good intentions.
Good eye!
@@gabitron420 I may have interpreted it wrong but when Peg said "my therapist says this is a toxic relationship" I assumed she only stood by Birdie is bc they are actually a couple and she loves Birdie even though she knows she's terminally online.
I know this has little to do with your comment but I just want some confirmation.
@@hcxpl1 Idk.
She seemed rather unphased by Birdie's obvious jealousy of Milles and Whisky and her fond recalling of having Milles in her hand, like a star struck puppet, not to mention she didn't seem to care at all about protecting Birdie when the murders started.
I think their relationship was more likely just professional/pittying Birdie.
Yeah. I think Peg definitely feels stuck to Birdie, especially since her frequent gaffes would definitely hurt Peg’s chances of finding employment elsewhere in the fashion/influencer sphere due to the link. Honestly feel really bad for her
When Whiskey says "Sorry Feminists" in like a playful teasing way but then Duke says it in a lower mumbling register that just sounds more genuine it makes me laugh for some reason.
They definitely played it for comedy for the audience sake more than the people who actually do that type of content for a living IRL. 🤣
one of the funniest line deliveries of the whole movie
@@LadyJenevia it almost sounds like Bautista apologizing for the character he's playing being a real thing.
Madelyn Cline's delivery of that line was just pitch perfect, especially with the face she makes right after.
That line and the sweatpants line were perhaps my two biggest laughs. I love those deliveries so much
it kinda felt like they were reading from a script and he was mumbling her lines without thinking lol
One of the things I love the most about the Marta-Helen parallels is how absolutely opposite they are to most typical heroines seen on screen. They’re kind, they’re gentle, they’re feminine, they’re beautiful, while also being strong and characterized by how their love makes them brave. That’s not just a beautiful way to portray women, that’s a beautiful way to portray POC women who are often shoehorned into the “strong female muh” stereotype. The women are allowed to be emotional, to be deeply loving, and to be vulnerable with Blanc, while still being the protagonists who act through reaction. Absolutely great.
I have a crazy idea for how this film series could end beautifully.
After 8 stand-alone Benoit Blanc mysteries, the 9th film would consist of the leads from all 8 previous films, including Marta and Helen. Then the one murdered, is Blanc. Then it's up to the group to solve the mystery among themselves. I feel like that's at least one of Rian's crazy subversion ideas.
I guess we'll all just have to wait and see how many more of these get made! 😂🤷🏻♀️
@@LadyJenevia Indeed. Hopefully we're in the correct timeline.
Or alternatively, he must travel to the “Blanc Wing” of a prison that features all previous murderers of the last movies and one of them is killed
I do want to see more of Marta. She was an incredible character.
@@coreytoomey7579 agreed. But I also want to see Janelle Monae again. Helen was a great character.
“oops 😮 sorry feminists! 😝😉”
“srryfeminists..😔” one of my favorite moments in the entire movie
I think that was just regular Dave Bautista coming through there
@@sweatyskeleton7390 He has been an absolute delight to watch as his acting career progresses.
Fran & Duke play far more similar roles in the fact that they tried to use their key knowledge of a suspected murder, Harlan & Cassandra, in order to blackmail the murderer for profit and gain. And in turn, the murderer, Ransom & Miles, didn't hesitate to kill them just to cover their tracks.
Looking for this comment 😉 Great point!
I was going to say the same thing. It's clear that Ryan Johnson views people who try to capitalize on tragedy as short sighted. Both characters failed to recognize the danger they were putting themselves in and failed to benefit from their information.
@@ewinterhalter4973 It's also a recurring trope in Agatha Christie's work, which makes this a nice nod as well!
Was gonna say this exact thing! 😆
Harlan and Cassandra are both self-made, successful and killed for trying to do the right thing which also screw over the killer. Both deaths are initially ruled as suicides but are much more suspicious upon further investigation.
Ooh! Another parallel between The Villains is that they both start off as obvious suspects, then are written off, and then turn out to be the killer! Ransom was the black sheep of the family, then joined forces with Marta, then was revealed to be the villain all along; Miles would have the most obvious motive to kill Andi, but is considered to be too smart to have done it, then is revealed to be the villain all along!
We're told exactly who the villain is, but we are naturally looking for more depth to characters, so we believe any further development, but we also readily believe they are the villain. Both times it doesn't feel like a regression, but more development - the twists come from getting to know the character even more! In other stories, it would feel disappointing, but here it is just very well written! 👏
Watch the next movie have a giant, overbearing, villainous guy who everyone assumes is the killer because of the first two movies but plot twist! He just sucks and someone else is the killer. 😂
Yeah.
In more than a few of her novels (The Crooked House, Towards Zero, The Hollow, And The There Were None, etc), Agatha Christie narrators or detectives would at some point flat out state that we usually think about murderers as above average smart planners, but that if they were REALLY all that smart they would have found a solution that doesn't involve risking prison, and that murderers are usually lazy, entitled or self-righteous hypocrites, not brilliant planners, and that our overestimating of what would be needed for a murder to happen is what most often obfuscates the truth.
If Knives Out 3 starts to look like it's following the same archetypes, I'll immediately suspect Johnson is trying to trick the audience and something completely different is going on in that one
@@LadyJenevia Or maybe he just turns out to be secretly good. That would be interesting.
Duke and Fran are definitely linked, both are secondary murders who were killed by the main killer after they attempted to blackmail the killer with their guilt
Yes! The main difference between their roles in the larger story is that Duke is a character in the main ensemble whereas Fran is largely seen as a secondary character and outside of the core ensemble in Knives Out. 😊
Rian loves to subvert conventional tropes, but he needs to establish one first. With 2 Knives Out movies, patterns are made. Which the third can now break. With the first 2, Rian subverts the genre so in the third he can subvert his very own Knives Out conventional tropes.
I think there might be limits to that, though!
I can't see the next one having the über rich be "actually sweet, innocent people" just to shake things up when compared to his first 2 movies, because the subversion of the somehow still popular "nice rich person", "if they are rich they have earned it" and "the economic elite has received superior education and thus must be intellectually superior" myths seems very much at the CORE of his Knives Out mysteries!
My bet is that the helpful innocent poor minority girl is actually the killer
@@edisonlima4647 Yeah, but based on that and some interviews I saw, even though they will always have some class conscience and themes, it is very probable that the next one isn't gonna be focused on rich people at all, so that won't be a problem.
Rian Johnson loves playing 4D chess with us, so I can totally see this as a possibility
The biggest thing that always threw me off from thinking it was Miles was the fact that he never did a single thing himself through out the entire movie. The other 5 have always done things for him, he had someone make the puzzle boxes, he had someone make the murder mystery plot. I never even suspected him to have been the one to hold the smoking gun or kill Andi because he was never the one to anything for himself. Even as you said, which I didn't catch, was he didn't even have the idea to burn the napkin. It definitely skewed my perception to ignore all the clues pointing towards him since he never registered as a threat.
I finished watching Glass Onion and it was the tightest writing I have ever seen in a movie.
Watch Joseph Gordon Levitt be the villain in the next Knives Out installment.
It’s funny you say that! I thought the same thing, considering Rians first film Brick had Joseph in it as the main character
It turns out the Hourly Dong was the real villain all along!
A thing I loved in Glass Onion is how all of Miles’ expensive glass sculptures are copies of already famous statues like Bird in Space or... THE MALTESE FALCON.
Y’know, a link between Duke and Fran could be how they both have attempted to blackmail the murders of the story for their own personal gain. And they both ended up dead because of it.
Awesome point.
I just had a light-bulb moment about "Knives Out" when you discussed the "Fake Allies". Thinking back on the moment Meg betrayed Marta, the breaking point was when Marta said "You're family" to Meg. At the time, I figured it was just exposing the hypocrisy of the Thromby family's superficial kindness. Thinking back on it, I just realized that "Family" also meant two very different things to Marta and Meg.
To Marta, it meant "I would do anything to protect you" as she did for her mother.
To Meg, it meant "I will stab you in the back", because that's how the Thromby's always treated each other.
So maybe they did consider Marta part of "the family" after all; and treated her with the same level of phony respect and deep antipathy they did for each other.
Oh yeah, had Ransom inherited everything like Marta did, they would have come for him in a similar way. I mean, everyone getting disinherited like that would be an emotionally charged situation, we are supposed to think they deserved it but it was quite emotionally honest, anyone would be hurt and confused if the nurse got everything after a loved one's passing. Families have fallen out over way smaller legacies.
I have been thinking about this movie and of course it’s obvious, but I love comparing how the first movie confronts a large political/social issue (immigration, xenophobia) in a small, personal way (with personal consequences of one family’s lost inheritance), while the second movie confronts a world-ending issue (similar to Mark Rylance in Don’t Look Up) , one where greed and irresponsibility with the highest of all stakes, ends in the destruction of the world’s most famous paintings (along with dangerous technology).
With Knives Out, I felt I was in the PRESENT. In Glass Onion, we were in the FUTURE. Not by much - maybe 5 years…
Thoughts?
i would honestly love if Adam driver is in the third knives out movie
He was in two of my favourite films of 2021 so I know that if he has a great story and character to play, I enjoy him being there. If he's the killer though... that feels SO obvious. 😂
@@LadyJenevia I would admit that it would be so obvious that he's the killer when he's in it LMAO...nonetheless i would still love it if he's in it
Benoit Blanc: [announces Adam Driver as the murderer]
Me: [pretends to be shocked]
😂😂😂
Im not watching if he or rami malek gets casted
@@fredriksvard2603 thats completely valid. There are actors that i also dont want to be in the knives out franchise. Mainly the rock and ryan reynolds
Another thing to note with the villains is that they are played by former Marvel heroes. Chris Evans played Captain America and Edward Norton played Hulk. It’s more of a coincidence, but I thought I’d point that out.
At this point it is hard to find an active actor that wasn't in a Marvel media.
I feel like Meg is more similar to Whiskey than to Peg. They are the most morally grey (and also the most relatable) out of the rich guys/antagonists side because their key failure isn't cruelty, greed or arrogance like the other characters in their circle, but cowardice (and also a reliance on privilege to survive).
With Meg, I think her morals are good but she fails to live up to them, and thus endangers Marta: she is the only Thrombey who seems to feel anything, let alone be genuinely distraight about Fran's death, and is also the only one who thinks that Marta deserves the house and fortune since Harlan left them to her. The shift for her happens when she realizes she won't be able to afford her education, so in the end she betrays Marta because her entire future was built on the foundation of her privilege and she is too cowardly to let it go.
Whiskey has a similar situation which is interestingly presented in the reverse: While Meg is introduced as a sympathetic character and later is shown to be too fickle to actually be on the right side, Whiskey is introduced as this airheaded manosphere supporter who spreads misogyny on the internet and seemingly blatantly cheats on her boyfriend, but is later given more depth and sympathetic qualities as she, too, is trying to build a future for herself. Like Meg, she seems to recognize the injustice of the status quo and feel remorse for her participation in it. In the glass-breaking scene, she is clearly shown to be the most sympathetic and supportive of Helen, which I think is the point of both their characters. They sympathize but don't support, their feelings are in the right place, but they don't act on them and reluctantly but deliberately remain within the status quo in hopes of saving their own hides.
Peg has a sort of similar situation, but it's more toned down. She is the only person on that island who has an actual job, and again remains within the status quo even though she hates the sh*theads in order to protect her future. She seems to empathize with and admire Andi/Helen, is a lot more socially conscious than Birdie, and shows some very relatable disgust towards Duke. But I think it's easier to compare Meg with Whiskey because Peg didn't really have a moral conflict (whereas Meg and Whiskey's arcs are rooted in the contrast between someone who has good morals in theory but relies on their privilege in practice, thus betraying those morals)
Overall, their complicity and their flaws are a LOT more relatable. It's easy to separate ourselves from the comically entitled, selfish and delusional characters, or the ones who are truly cruel and malicious, but I think it's a lot harder to say we would not panic about what we'd do with our lives if we had to give up our privilege, or what we would and wouldn't do to secure our future by harnessing/protecting that privilege. I'm sure if you'd asked Meg the week before the will reading if she would have betrayed Marta for money, she wouldn't have thought of herself as that kind of person. Which is very compelling.
lmao sorry for the long comment I love Knives Out
i obseved one thing in the first knives out breakdown the director explisitly told he can't make the antagonist to use an i phone so in glass onion he din't gave him a phone at all
🍎🍎🍎
But he did have an iPad.
Plus, he had all the other characters using Androids. The only people associated with Apple products were Blanc asking about the iPad prize and Andi using a Mac when writing her email.
@@benjamintillema3572We never see him holding it, though. He just tossed it to Blanc off-screen.
I wonder if he is setting up those archetypes to break them later on, which is going to be so fun to see. While I have to watch the movie for a third time since it came out on streaming, I'll look more into the comparison between the gen z characters since I do think Whiskey is more than she leads on and seems to date Duke because she want's so get ahead, but doesn't want to get into the political content that he does, all while trying to help achieve his goals. She adds insight as an outsider to Helen and acts in a similar was to Fran because of a one-two punch of a clue that solves the "who" of murder (Fran with being forced to call Ransom "Hugh" and her secret stash and Whiskey's necklace placing the time and place Miles was at during Andi's murder). Your analysis of Meg and Peg was interesting to pay attention to as I found Peg did fade into the background upon my rewatch.
Both movies have been a joy to watch for the first time and get better with every watch. Helen breaking the glass sculptures like a cat and Birdie thinking that sweatpants are supposed to be made is sweatshops had me in stitches.
Edit: Also the way Marta and Helen solve their mysteries is very similar in the way they are in line how they interact with an object related to the characters. Marta is solves the mystery by being kind and playing to "create the pretty pictures" as evident in her trying to save Fran and her games of Go. While Helen uses her observation skills and destruction, as evident when she not only helps Blanc in sleuthing but also in perfectly imitating her sister and also her way of opening the box in the beginning mirrors her ending Miles career with his own resources.
Birdie got a lot of laughs from different audiences when I saw it at the cinema but actually, the part that consistently got the loudest reaction was the hot sauce moving towards Helen's nostril. 😭
@@LadyJenevia THIS! LOL
I’m with you on the theory that Rian Johnson is clever enough to be setting us all up for the third film by lulling us into believing he is dependent on obvious tropes. I mean, the Meg/Joni and Peg/Birdie parallels are so obvious, and even the names of the younger of the pairs! Misdirection, on the multi-movie scale.
Great points made! It made me so happy to see Johnson go for a similar 'heroine character' this time around instead of having Blanc carry the movie by himself, I hope it's a trend that will continue. Also, it's probably been mentioned before in the comments, but the biggest parallel I saw between the two movies is in the fact that both ensembles (roughly) consist of wealthy people who convince themselves they're self-made, talented, 'the cream rising to the top' or what have you... while actually having received their biggest push (and in some cases remaining fully dependent on) one rich, powerful person. They're two different flavours in the Eat The Rich buffet: old money and new money.
something I didnt see mentioned is how rian dealt with "cancel culture" when miles has his disruptor monologue, birdie and duke got canceled. miles frames their cancellation for blackfacing and the fake pills as something brave and "disruptive" while its a legit career ending move.
Then miles single handedly bankrolls her sweatpants company and his youtube career and is about to buy out birdies shares so even if she loses the company she will be fine.
I didn't even realized there was a theatrical release, all the advertising I saw for it was that it was going to be on Netflix.
I totally would have watched it in theaters had I realized that was even an option
Yeah, that's why my other Glass Onion video was up a month ago. That was when I saw it (six times). 😂
@@LadyJenevia lol yet I only saw it a few hours ago after I had just finished watching it and decided to go look up some commentary on it to see if there was anything I'd missed when I watched it
yeah, it was only released in about 600 cinemas in major markets in the US, Germany, Spain, Ireland, & UK. I was really looking forward to seeing it in theatre, but live in Canada (and nowhere near a major CDN market, either).
According to Wikipedia it had one of the widest theatrical release for a Netflix movie.
@ser132 Whenever Netflix has a “limited release” in theatres I have never seen a listing for it near me. This was the only time I saw it available. Netflix really needs to broaden their cinematic runs because if the movie is right, people WILL show up. I also want them to start doing physical releases for their originals but that’s another tangent entirely. 👀
@@LadyJenevia I agree with all of that. I would love a bluray/dvd of some of their movies, like this one, or Christmas Chronicles...
Glad you got to see this one in theatre :)
On the final topic of “what comes next”, I remember reading how Rian says he wants to make the next one “scary” somehow, which gets me (a horror and thriller fan) very intrigued. It makes me think about how these archetypes and his two-time eat the rich plots might mesh into something “scary”, and for that even if the archetypes all remain the same, the framing plot and location and themes will be what makes these repeat archetypes feel fresh. Yeah, similar characters sometimes, but we don’t really think too much about that because they’re all getting put into different situations. Just as ol’ Benny is the central axis that the Knives Out mysteries revolve around, the archetypes that he’s surrounded by become the spokes of the wheel he’s turning. And that’s just one of the many things I love about these films. For the most part, all Rian needs to do is change the tire and drive down a different road, and the wheel is still just as good.
It’ll be really fun to see how many expectations Rian Johnson will subvert in the third movie (because I will be shocked if there isn’t a third one). Loved Helen as a protagonist, and it was fun catching all the subtle details with her and Andi. Birdie was a joy to watch every time she appeared on screen. I wouldn’t touch the character in real life with a ten foot pole, but Kate Hudson (as well as everyone else) knocked it out of the park.
Ngl, when you mentioned the possibility of Joseph Gordon Levitt playing an actual character in the third movie, I thought, “please God let it happen I want it”
Netflix signed him for 2 sequels, so yes, we’ll get at least a third one.
@@mhawang8204 I think it was actually 3, but yes
Honestly Benoit and Helen were such a great pairing I'm hoping she returns as his apprentice in the next installment
Naw...it was just enough. No jumping the sharks
I get the feeling but once I learned about the Knives Out sequels one of my main concerns was how they'd make it all work out without the great cast the first had; but looking at Glass Onion I guess I can safely say I trust Rian Johnson to create great characters for all installments.
the amount of times you reference the "next" and "third" film in the series in these videos gives me so much hope
It's already planned. When Rian Johnson signed on to make Glass Onion he also agreed to make another sequel.
Netflix ordered 2 sequels from Rian Johnson. We’ll get a third one for sure.
I read somewhere that Craig's already been paid buckets of money for #3.
12:48
JGL was the lead/detective in Rian Johnson's very first whodunit: Brick. Underrated movie and still one of RJ's best.
Also there are some other similarities: the "disruptors" and the Thrombey's both want to screw over the person responsible for their wealth (Harlan and Andi) and the killer is the one who takes that the furthest. Harlan and Andi also die before their respective film begins, are only seen in flashbacks, and they share many personal failings (they let others ride their coattails only to realize too late that they're doing more harm than good, trusting that those close to them wouldn't hurt them even when they have every reason to). I think Duke is a bit of a combination of Walt and Richard: Walt in the way they both aren't supposed to be taken seriously no matter how hard they try to act tough and Richard in that they are both the most outwardly toxic of the group (plus both characters deal with infedelility, but in different ways).
I literally just finished it on Netflix. While my bank account was happy that I got to watch it at home, I feel Netflix really missed an opportunity with this movie. I would have really loved to watch this in a theater. I think it would have made a lot of money in wide release.
It was soooooooo fun seeing this on the big screen. It's also in general helpful to watch it in that format because you're trying to look for clues and I only have a monitor for my laptop but it's still nowhere near the size of A CINEMA SCREEN. But also, having the audience full of people laughing and yelling was so much fun! The hot sauce running towards Helen's nose consistently had the loudest audience reaction and I saw it six times in the cinema. 😂
I am a sucker for meaningful names. Andi's full name is Cassandra, named after the Greek mythological figure whose true prophecies were never believed or heeded. Helen, of course, is a reference to Helen of Troy, possessed of "the face that launched a thousand ships." Andi told Miles the truth over and over and was dismissed, and she never got her due credit for Alpha's success. Helen's presence leads the Disruptors/Shitheads to eventually turn on Miles, and her expressions often emulate the Mona Lisa, another famous beauty (which she destroys).
I think Helen's name could also refer to Helenus, Cassandra's twin brother and fellow seer who told Odysseus how to win the Trojan war.
Is it wrong I genuinely like the idea that a main villain is a royal moron? It’s kind of a neat idea I’m surprised hasn’t been explored much in media
I think it’s because villains are supposed to be more powerful than the heroes; if they’re not, then there’s no tension. And stupidity is a major handicap.
That being said, Miles is an example of how your villain can be stupid and still more powerful. He has more wealth and allies than Helen, which means she can’t take him on through the legal system. Instead, she has to beat him her way.
If you're into Agatha Christie novels/movies, what's great is she puts the clues all there for you to figure out the mysteries. Even if you figure out who did it within five minutes there is enough going on that you continue reading/watching. And rian Johnson being a big Agatha Christie fan I think follows that rule. It doesn't matter if you figured out who is the murderer in the next film early. You'll still have a fun time watching it. And that's what makes a classic enduring, the rewatchability of it all.
I already love these movies, but this video essay explaining the archetypes of the Knives Out universe is the cherry on top of a beautifully ornate sundae.
i absolutely love ur video essays, I’m glad my knives out obsession brought me to ur wonderful channel
That's very kind, thank you so much for visiting! 🥹✨
I believe the archetypes the way I see is. The Heroine and the Killer, exactly as you exposed. And then the Victim, generally an example of a "Good Rich", someone who won big and build an empire due to brains, and effort, being self-made. And someone with a relationship with the heroine that is central. Marta and Harlam, and Helen and Andi has the biggest emotional connection of both movies. And then, the last archetype are the suspects, all together.
The suspects are the whole ensemble, that look and act like different characters, but at the end, they serve the purpose of being colectively a single character. The group they represent, is the point of they existing. How Walt or Linda make Martha feel in an individual level is not really what matters, is "How the Thrombeys make Martha feel." "The Thrombeys are all awful." and no matter if some Thrombeys are nazis and others are politically activists for social justice, when it matters they are always united. And the same thing can be said about the Disruptors. Some Disruptors take covid seriously, others don't, maybe whiskey doesn't believe what she said on Twitch, maybe Peg is a better person than Birdie, doesn't matter. Their sins are the Disruptors sins. Their group identity always is stronger than their individual relevance to the mystery.
Maybe in the next movie there won't be a nazi, a false ally, or an airhead woman. But there is a chnce that there will be a group of very diverse people, with many distinctive quirks, individuality, and weaksauce motives for murder, that at the end will all be there to be a single group and prove the same point in how they treat the heroine.
The order of crediting is specially important during marketing. Ordering it alphabetically just isn’t viable
The problem with the order of names in adverts is that it’s tied to actor contracts usually and bigger roles will demand “top billing” aka having their name earlier in the ensemble list, and smaller roles but by big names usually get “last billing.” It’s as much marketing for the stars as it is for the movie. And idk if it’s ever really done to have different orders on posters/trailers from the end credits, probably would be a lot of work to negotiate.
yup, and the biggest names will only do it if they are the murderer, bc it has more kudos. So, Captain America in Film 1, the Hulk in Film 2, with cheaper character actors. These things work best when everyone is the same level of star, like the 70s Murder on the Orient Express, and there is a reason why they could get everyone they wanted for that as well...
I got here from your Glass Onion video, and subscribed at the well-deserved praise for Michael Shannon
HE MAKES EVERYTHING HE'S IN BETTER. 😂
He's gonna mess with us in the next one for sure. Also, his best directing still might be the "everything explodes" Ozymandias episode of Breaking Bad. You know, Skyler screaming in the street, etc.
But I do love these movies.
Thanks for making more Knives Out content, I just recently found that playlist through your Glass Onion review.
Very cool contrast and comparison. It would be interesting to compare some of this other work to the Knives Out films.
Perhaps but I'm not going anywhere near TLJ purely to spare myself the MIGRAINE induced by the discourse around that film. I'm not invested in that argument AT ALL and I don't want people trying to bicker about it here on my channel. 😂
I should probably browse through some of his earlier works though. 👀
Yeah, TLJ debates are so exhausting that even as a total SW fanboi I've lost all interest in discussing the new trilogy (and related topics) with my fellow fans. I'd love to watch that video but I'd hate to trawl through its comments section.
Sighs, this is a great examination of themes & characters into the movies. Made me check out the rest of your content. Let me sigh again. A great breathe of fresh air. Love this. Also props to your editing skills. Great work.
I think a major (possible) archetype that was overlooked that is present in both knives out and glass onion is speak no evil and see no evil, as in knives out speak no evil comes into play when it comes to marta's allergy and how the role of it as into the story. See no evil is a big player in glass onion as the characters are brought to lie about what they saw both in the bar and in the mansion in order to keep miles innocent
Thank you for representing me in this video because I thought the exact same things after watching Glass Onion for the first time.
I wonder if Whiskey also has shades of the fake ally - willing to listen to Andi/Helen briefly, but not able to commit to it.
Algorithm didn’t send me to your KO vids when I was binging content, but now I’m gonna!
I think in the next one (if there is one) Helen will either act as Benny's assistant, or possible, take over his role as lead detective. The (what will do next scenes) while similar on the surface, have totally different framing and editing. Where Marta is shown as a reverse shot of the family, reinforcing their connection; Helen is shown opposite of Benny, possibly hinting at a "future" connection. Who knows it might just be me reading in, or Ryan might just drop it anyways. Cool video
This is pure perfection of a video essay
3:48 (thinking about audiences and Hollywood in general) yup.
👀🍵
Spoilers *
The true Genius of 'Glass Onion' as a Murder Mystery is that the movie starts as an appropiation (the game) of the true murder perpretated by the killer (fake genius who is always exploiting others) who sets himself as 'the victim'.
I think a great setting and theme that they could explore in the next one could be a story about stolen artifacts from colonization. Having it to be set in a museum and more like a whodunit heist situation instead of a murder could be interesting too. I think conversations around the problematic past of anthropology have been getting more attention. Positive Native representation is always lacking in the mainstream and Rian Johnson could shed light on these issues.
Sure! That makes me think of the movie Finding 'Ohana, which I won't spoil in case you haven't seen it, but I know the screenwriter of it and it's very good.
There have also been A LOT of memes exploding online (particularly after a certain person died this past year) but certain museums and institutions needing to give back artefacts that don't belong to them. 👀👑
That's bound to have generated loads of articles that can start to point anyone interested in the topic in the right direction for further investigative research.
@@LadyJenevia plus there are classic detective stories that deal with this topic for inspiration, like The Moonstone
New to the channel but I’ve loved this video and your previous one on Glass Onion, will definitely be checking out more of your content
The Algorithm brought me to your channel as I was looking for Knives Out analysis Videos, and now you have a new subscriber - fun and interesting analyses! Also love your makeup 😍
omg i just saw your other glass onion video TODAY
I made that other one a full month ago. 😂
I've had these additional thoughts in mind for a while but I needed to wait for the film to come out so I could fully proceed with talking about what's in the story including spoilers. 🤭
i loved your recent two videos on these two movies and now i’m excited to go watch your knives out four-parter. somehow in my perusing of knives out videos a while ago i missed them
In case no one else has said it yet, JGL is the lead in Brick- Rian’s original ‘who done it’ noir
Once again your takes are so on point. I love your videos so much!!!!
I'm so glad! Thank you!!! 😁
personally, im of the opinion that marta offered the more satisfying climax, if only slightly. helen's was more bombastic for sure, but something about a tightly written, last battle of wits just hits different. seeing marta hold in her bile just long enough to trick ransom into a confession before _throwing up in his face_ as a final fuck you before revealing she caught him is so immensely satisfying. her taking a physical reaction that's been weaponized against her throughout the entire film and weaponizing it for herself makes that one brief moment hold just a bit more resonance to me than helen's whole arson montage (which, don't get me wrong, was still fantastic and entirely karmic for miles in its own right)
So glad to see this! New to the channel. I notice that Kate Hudson and Toni Collette played similar types. Types unfortunately relate to. In the sense of being "free spirted and sort of aimless".
As to whether JGL will ever be a main character in a Rian Johnson whodunit: Brick is there for us, but I would very much like to see him in a Benoit Blanc mystery! P.S. I'm new to this channel & I loved this video. Obviously gonna watch your original Glass Onion vid right now!
I really appreciate that! Welcome, and thank you for browsing! 😊
Watch JGL becoming the murderer for future Rian Johnson whodunit 👀
I went back to watch the Knives out video once you mentioned it. Great job.
That video was originally an hour long but CZcams kept blocking it because of Lionsgate until I chopped it up and posted it as four separate videos. 😭
@@LadyJenevia That's right! You said :) Watched all. I will go back and comment on each. Wonderful job.
not knowing any actors' names to avoid the issue you described at the end 🔥🔥🔥
Amazing vid. Now I gotta go watch the other knives out stuff
I’m glad you showed the clip of Blanc solving Miles’ murder before it started while you were talking about figuring out the killer through the marketing. Because I was making the same connection
Awesome! Good ideas!
All that to say, I liked your perspective. Made me see it different.
The irony that Meg and Peg’s names rhyme and they play the same archetype lol
Don’t know if this has been pointed out yet and if it’s appropriate as an archetype or just an unfortunate coincidence but both films so far have at least one classical actor or big Hollywood name in their last on screen roles on film before passing on. Knives Out had 1 (Christopher Plummer), Glass Onion had 2 (Angela Lansbury & Stephen Sondheim), I wonder if the third one will have 3 Hollywood legends in their last on screen roles? Like all actors/filmmakers over a certain age want their swan song to be fittingly directed by Rian Johnson
the moment you said "maybe revenge as a motive" i thought "female killer 👀 ". That would be so fun to watch
RIGHT? 👀🤭
I thought about the issue with the accrediting of the actors lining up on both posters after seeing Glass Onion in theaters and couldn't agree more. There has to be a way to change that so it isn't obvious going in
I think a reason why individuals would be more likely to see your video on glass onion now more than knives out would be how strong the algorithm is now vs back then. i did not know about glass onion till the day i watched it and the next time i looked at youtube after watching your review was the first thing that popped up.
I just watched Knives Out & Glass Onion in a row, so this video is very timely for me (I hadn't seen either yet). I'll check out the other video essays later, I think I ignored them at first because I hadn't seen the films yet. I'll admit some of your videos aren't about media I'm all that interested in, so I'm unlikely to check those out. I tend to appreciate your take on things I do find interesting, though, so who knows, I might.
Totally fair for you to just stop by when the topic is relevant to your interests. I do like to hop around to different films/series that interest me so I'm used to people tuning in on an irregular schedule (such as only circling back around when a new season of a show is coming out that I will make videos on). 😂
JGL was already the main character of one of his whodunnit movies. Brick is fantastic!
I do see a major thread connecting all the "leftover" characters. They're all characters with high aspirations but who aren't willing to work for their success and instead rely on a wealthy, powerful character to power their lives.
another (kinda sad) parallel between the Golden Girls is that their son dies in the film...
😭😭😭
can someone explain why miles sent andi the invitation-box if he killed her??????
The biggest archetype I think is not a character it's a plot structure. Halfway though the film we get a flashback that reconciles the first act. (Christopher plumber covering up his murder and the twin revealed). I don't mind it, I think it actually works better here then in Knives Out, I do hope he changes it up on the third one though just so it doesn't get too predictable
You overlooked two other elements connecting Duke and Fran!
1. They are the characters who play a pivotal role in discovering the truth in the end. Them being murdered/attacked is usually a catalyst for Blanc getting the final clues he needed pointing out the truth. They also escalate the situation for the murderer.
And 2. They are the characters whose greed brings on theif demise. Fran could have shared the toxicology report with anyone but Ransom, but instead she tried to get money out of him - and that put her in a position where he could kill her. Duke discovered the truth about Andi first, but instead of warning his "friends" that Miles is a *fucking murderer* discreetly, he tries to get an advantage out of Miles - leading to him getting killed.
Gotta say as a black woman, Glass Onion really spoke to me. Because I’ve lived/am living a similar scenario (as have other black women) and it hit close to home.
idea for a comparative analysis: Blanc girl vs Bond girl
it'd be funny if they ever cast joseph gordon levitt to call back his previous voice over work by having him play the character he's said to be (which i think may be himself? iirc miles mentions hiring him directly for the dongs)
Before I watch the movie, I thought Peg is going to be Marta's equivalent. They look innocent and be like "oh shi..." type (for Peg i'm referring to the moment of the trailer where she almost break the Miles glass ornament) and I'm kinda glad that I was wrong about that
i love both but prefer 1
solely for its cast, characters, blanc being more over the top and entertainment value
I would've for sure seen Glass Onion in theaters, but I couldn't because it wasn't showing in any theaters near me. They definitely left money on the table by having such a small opening.
I think there are some parallels between Walt and Lionel in that they're both in charge of the day to day running of large empires, but are still beholden to more forceful personalities that have power over them and never truly give them the opportunity to flourish or take control of that empire. They also both ultimately lose their position and everything they've worked at building for someone else after that person (who has benefitted from their stewardship over the empire) either removes them or destroys the empire, illustrating how precarious their position was all along. Notably, Walt has mobility issues and Lionel is a black man, so they both have marginalized aspects to their identities; but they gain power not through challenging the system that would marginalize them, but instead by being subservient to powerful white men and acting as stewards for empires that benefit from the status quo and ultimately reinforcing that system. Granted, that last point is rather tenuous, since we never see Walt ever struggle with his mobility particularly and his issues wouldn't at all bar him from advancing in most jobs whereas Lionel, as a black man in America, would face substantially more hurdles; I will not that we rarely see Walt without his cane, which is a visual reinforcement of his physical issues, so it is still definitely emphasized.
I'd argue Walt and Lionel are in similar situations. They're both tethered to their respective parachutes via employment. Walt is employed by Harlan and Lionel is employed by Miles. One tries to get out from their dependency, the other is trying desperately to hold on. I don't know if I'd say they share the same roll in their respective narratives though, but I did think there were some interesting parallels
There's actually an interesting contrast between Marta and Helen I wanted to point out, is that while they're both kind, smart, hard-working, humble, non-white women, they both have their own "virtue", so to speak.
Marta's virtue is Kindness, where she is almost always extremely nice to everyone (Ransom is the exception when he proves himself to be an utterly despicable monster), even to the point of being thankful to the Thrombys even when they've treated her like garbage. Heck, even towards the end of the film, when Marta has opened her eyes to what kind of people they really are, it's still hinted she may help them all the same... although it'll be on her terms, not theirs', thankfully.
Helen may also be kind (she did take the time to comfort Whiskey when the latter was crying over Duke), but her virtue is actually Wisdom. She may not have been the "genius" that her sister was, but Andi was more book-smart than streetwise. Helen was the one who saw right away that the Disrupters were awful people and warned her sister, and she was able to figure out that Andi's death was not a suicide and who might be responsible. Furthermore, it was she and not Blanc who was able ro successfully investigate things, even correctly guessing from the start that Miles was the murderer all along. In the finale, when she realized that the Disrupters could not be pulled away from Miles' influence, she destroyed that influence, which had the result of the Disrupters finally having the guts to turn on him.
Well I noticed both of the two involved Blanc helping a young woman in search of vengeance and satisfaction like Marta and Helen
I didn’t make the connection between Meg and Peg! Even their names are similar. Rian Johnson really knows what he’s doing.
I've never actually seen any of Rian's other work so I can't comment on it, but I absolutely love Knives Out and Glass Onion. He's a fantastic writer/director based on these 2.
I watched GO first, then KO. They both work completely independently which is good. I knew who the killer was going into KO but the way the story is told meant that even knowing the identity created mystery in the story.
I think there's a couple more similarities. Walt and Lionel are both the ones most directly reliant on the main billionaire and both start the movie torn between investors who want them to do specific things and realists with the actual power to make those things happen trying to tell them no. Duke and Fran are not only killed specifically because they know who the killer is (with flashbacks repeating their last words in the new context to boot), but they also begin the movie on the outs with the killer because of previous happenings, and while they aren't murderers they do have issues of the main heroine that seems directly linked to racial tension. Lastly while whiskey talks about a political career I do think that conversation is very incriminating because it shows that she is a grifter. She doesn't believe in any of this shit Duke does but we'll use it to get political points and leverage that into her career where she will continue to believe nothing. Just like how the youngest thrombi intentionally trolls people to get a rise out of them. Also they're both shown on the screen sexually stimulating someone and hearing incriminating clues in the process.
Duke and Fran are also connected in the way that they both have information that can incriminate the murderer and that's why they're killed.
I associated Jacob Thrombey and Duke in my head, because I felt like those 2 would be the most likely to obnoxiously despise the last jedi
I think Meg Thromby gets mischarecterized. I think she has Marta’s back. But her family pressured her cause of “family”. Nothing like Peg.
Good vid. Things to think about
now you're getting me thinking about a masculine 'heroine' archetype in a Rian Johnson whodunit. it'd be a wonderful subversion of gender roles and/or presentation and attitudes as well as a technical subversion of Johnsons own tropes. pretty cool!
forget if this was mentioned but both "murder weapons" in each movie are a form of poison (pineapple juice and narcotics/overdose)
knock at the cabin .. just saw two actors in that movie from a show and series i was watching yesterday... Mind hunter and knives out...