Cultural Appropriation vs Appreciation - A panel discussion with Rui Liu of Grass People Tree
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2022
- This video is a recording of a panel discussion between So-Han Fan of West China Tea and Rui Liu of Grass People Tree (moderated by Marco of STEAP'D Tea and Activist Teahouse) that took place on Zoom in the spring of 2022.
Marco introduces the discussion: "Culture is the jewel of humanity--and in light of the complex intersection between culture, history, politics participation in each others' cultural practices calls for sensitivity, mutual respect, and discussion. Our goal today is to have a friendly and compassionate conversation in the tea room and find a way to navigate this complex landscape, so that everyone can enjoy tea culture free of ambiguity, shame, or disrespect."
A big thank you to both Rui and Marco for facilitating this vital conversation.
Please feel free to continue the discussion in the comments section!
Also please consider supporting Tea House Ghost on Patreon at / teahouseghost
love the content. it’s always a breathe of fresh air to hear So Han. i live in north texas and need to make the journey down to austin for some tea
Yes please come see us!
Amazing timing. I have been contemplating this a lot lately. Thank you n' cheers...
This has been really good .. thank you I am grateful for this discussion 🙏
Great discussion - thank you for all your content as well!
Thank you! I really appreciated this conversation.
Thanks for watching!
just found this video! I have only just really begun to dive deeper into my own tea journey. As a white individual about to study with & work for a Chinese teacher, its a very big priority for me to stay open hearted, humble, and receptive to information, education, and feedback from Chinese or Chinese-descended colleagues & friends. I think other white individuals very often use non-white cultures as stepping stones to kinds of "enlightenment" or a culturedness much like clout/social currency and I have witnessed that both in others and also, myself! its important to sit down and check-in with your intent like you and Rui said. Thanks so much for your informative and amazing thoughts and words. I love this channel and it has been such a great resource!! so much love and appreciation to you.
Thanks for stopping by! ☺️
Great opinions, thanks for sharing.
Timestamp 16:50 - It hate to say it... "Gongfu Guru..." 🤪. Timestamp 23:20 That cuts both ways. I am based in Shanghai, and I'm a Westerner who has spent several years studying Chinese Tea. When I tried to explain a particular tea's origin and manufacture in a Chinese Tea Art class, "Jibian Ooolong" I was harshly corrected by Chinese Instructor, as if I had no idea of what I was talking about. She was not familiar with the tea I was talking about at all, as it was still a novelty commodity on the Chinese Tea market I'm a foreigner therefore I know nothing about Chinese Tea "Default Assessment." You could also say I was once guilty of Cultural Appropriation, according to Rui's definition. I was in Moganshan looking for the indigenous Yellow Tea. I was told it was actually a green tea but I didn't want to hear it as everything I had read prior, did not inform me that it was a green tea made from plants with "yellow" leaves. My ignorance driven by incomplete internet information trumped local knowledge. Lesson Learned. I have two ears and one mouth, I am still learning how to use the two, in preference over the one.
Im only 30 minutes in, but it is very insightful. As a white Europian I must say that my first reaction to Rui Liu’s story was: “Aah, thats not too bad, I wouldnt be hurt by that”. But after So Han’s clear explanation of what the impact of background is, I really see the difference in how we interpret these kind of situations. Thank you for this insight, because I can use this when communicating with people from other backgrounds.
I grew up drinking tea from English influence in Chilean culture. I love tea, and gong fu cha is a huge enhancement to the experience of drinking tea. It happens to be Chinese and that’s great since my spiritual and philosophical path has been enhanced as well by Taoism which is Chinese as well. So I hold Chinese culture close to my heart, tho I don’t identify with it, nor I do identify with my own assigned culture or race. Screw identitarianism.
Thanks for having this conversation. I'm a food fan (and tea, obviously!) and it can be hard for me to navigate sometimes. Particularly, I see posts from a lot of people, usually Americans, of East Asian descent that they feel hurt sometimes because they got made fun of in school for their parents' culture and food and now grow up feeling like their culture became "trendy" at some point. I know culture isn't one voice, no matter what group or topic the discussion is about, and everyone has different feelings, but I wouldn't want to feel like I've hurt someone by enjoying and learning something. Sometimes I feel uncomfortable with some of the deeper aspects of gongfu as a form of tea service because I don't want to feel like I'm trying to own a culture that isn't mine, so I'll purposefully shy away from some of the things that seem too formal... but I also want to drink tea well, if that makes any sense. I think this video helped me to not worry quite so much about it because I do gongfu cha for myself and I try to get my friends to learn about it and it would be nice if it were just recognized as a good way for everyone to enjoy tea.
I am of Chinese descent and honestly I am not nearly as on board with the idea off cultural appropriation than it seem So-Han is. I definitely feel that there is something there to the concept, but I haven't quite articulated it in my mind yet. Which is why it was great to listen to this conversation, because it gave me some more perspectives to think on about the subject.
Anyways, at least the way I feel about it now, I don't see any problem with being as formal with your tea experience as you like, as long as it's coming from a genuine desire to enjoy your tea to the fullest. If you' look inside yourself and realize that you actually just want to get more formal with your tea because you want it so that when guests come over and see all your gongfu cha utensils they'll think you're so interesting and special, then you probably shouldn't do it. But if preparing tea this way genuinely gives you joy, then please do it, and you don't have to hide it either, treat it like anything else that gives you joy, share it with your friends and family. With sharing tea knowledge, trying to make sure you're not presenting yourself as an absolute authority would be totally sufficient to me. For example, say "This is the way I understand how to brew this kind of white tea," as opposed to, "With this kind of white tea, you have to brew it this way." That's totally enough for me.
I just makes me feel sad that someone like yourself feel uncomfortable enjoying tea the way they might want to or sharing their passion with friends.
Great discussion. I find it odd that "people" want to buy from white merchants, because I would expect to get more real tea from someone closer to the original country. Maybe I feel that way since I became interested in Chinese tea after watching Dream of Splendor which is a Chinese drama. Episode 16 has a great tea competition. Not sure which Era but hundreds of years ago. Mostly listen to Chinese singers, Hua Chenyu or Xiao Zhan or Pu Shu. So I feel sad that this feeling of privilege has corrupted western thinking. Still. Thank you both for sharing. Important experiences to be shared to get some light on the subject.
I'm super late because I just found the video, but its really great. A lot of what you said rang true to me as a chinese tea enthusiast. I am a white person, but I am very involved in chinese tea to the point where I consider it more like a way of life rather than a hobby.
I am always telling people about China and chinese tea, and how I personally think the best tea in the world comes from China. I will tell them about hei cha and how diverse it is, and I'll tell them about qian liang and puerh and the history between Sichuan and Tibet and the silk road. But their knee-jerk reaction to all of this boils down to "china pollution" or "chinese tea is toxic/sprayed with chemicals" like how the woman told you.
The funniest part is, these people that fixate on china's pesticide and fertilizer use fail to realize that it is a global phenomenon used in every agricultural industry in every country. They will talk trash on Chinese tea while eating American cows that sleep in their own manure.
And it isn't even just western people that have this mindset. My coworkers are korean and also have a similar negative view on products that come from China.
This being said, I think people should be cautious when it comes to the mislabeling of puerh since there is a lot of "bing dao" and "yiwu" teas of questionable origin. But to write off all Chinese tea as toxic or bad is completely extreme and uncalled for.
I enjoy drinking tea, and because of my interest in tea, it has led me to know more about its history as well as wanting to understand the different types, brewing styles, where it grows, etc. While I understand and agree it is wrong to be mean or hateful to people because of their heritage, race, and culture I think there are clearly blurred lines as to what some people are calling cultural appropriations.
I have yet to see crowds forming outside of Taco Bell demanding that they stop making horrible Mexican foods. Or a gathering of people outside of Lipton for not making it more well known the history of tea and its cultural relationship with people from certain geographical areas. Nor have I seen the reverse done when various cultures adopt "White People Hairstyles". And to be honest, nor do I think any of the aforementioned should be happening. My point is that most people like experiencing things from other cultures because they like them, they enjoy them, and in many cases admire them to the point they mimic them. Oscar Wilde said "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness" and I think he had a point.
The world can be a confusing place at times, on one hand, I hear people wanting a "Global Community" a world without borders, one big homogenous family of people celebrating our diversity and coming together to embrace our differences. And then we do, and someone gets offended because someone of another culture embraces something a little too much.
Many of us aren't the problem in the first place, we just want to enjoy our tea (and other things in society) without the lecture for things we aren't a part of in the first place. Put the blame at the feet of the offenders.
I don't know, maybe I missed the point, maybe I don't understand, but overall I know I am guilty of one thing, my passion for tea and doing my best to create the perfect cup and to just be able to do my thing in peace.
I think So-Han and Rui lay out some good points in this video that seek to sort of sharpen those blurry lines around a few key factors. Most of them come down to either 1.) money and questions of who stands to profit from any ventures regarding some sort of cultural touchstone (in this case, tea culture) or 2.) power and questions of how are people with either explicit or implicit power wielding that power (consciously or unconsciously) when engaging with people from another culture.
This is not to say non-Chinese people can't participate in, or even profit from, tea culture globally. I think in many cases, people who are simply enjoying tea and tea culture within their own cultural context are not engaging in cultural appropriation.
The important thing with regard to the money side is: if non-Chinese people ARE profiting from Chinese tea culture in some way (maybe they're a tea importer, maybe they run a tea house, maybe they're a youtuber), how are they engaging with that communities that they are drawing from (in this case, Chinese and Chinese-Diaspora people and their cultures)? Are they engaging at all? Are their practices extractive (taking from another culture without giving back) or regenerative (working together with another culture and engaging in meaningful relationships toward common goals)?
The important thing with regard to the power side is: when non-Chinese people are engaging with Chinese tea culture, are they doing what they can (on their own time) to become culturally AWARE, such that they can engage with the culture in healthy ways. This means engaging
a.) without assuming a dominator stance (example: telling a Chinese person they are "doing it wrong" because that person's specific practice might not align with what a non-Chinese institution considers canon)
b.) without (willingly or unwillingly) harming the people of that culture (example: often this harm can take seemingly casual forms, such as recreating expressions of prejudice by suggesting they are true. A common one that got raised in the discussion is that "Chinese people are untrustworthy," which is more rooted in cultural differences between the West and East Asia and the role of institutions in gaining the trust of a population than it is rooted in the actual behavior of Chinese people).
and c.) with good faith efforts made to understand that culture on that culture's own terms.
Really appreciated this conversation, I feel like there is a lot I have to learn, as someone with no connection to Chinese culture trying to learn more about tea.
Something I do wonder though (and I understand this isn't a question to which there is one simple answer), is to which degree sharing the limited knowledge of tea that I've gathered so far among friends and loved ones or even toward people who are at an earlier point than me in their discovery of tea is appropriate. With the latter I'm thinking of sharing my perspective on a tea I'm drinking and my understanding of its origin on social media or even answering questions on reddit (provided that nobody more qualified has already provided an answer). Is being transparent about my limitations, being clear about something being my personal understanding and when possible referring to more nuanced and comprehensive sources of information quite enough, or should one refrain from sharing information one isn't entirely certain about?
A more concrete example: if a friend who is completely new to tea asks about what heicha is, I would give a simple more general answer about the overall categorization of tea while also referring them to more comprehensive sources of information, for example the gongfu tea cha episode on heicha on this channel. Can this be considered a reasonable way of going about this?
I think this is super reasonable. Even answering questions, to the best of your ability, publicly on places like Reddit is fine. I see no problem with this. That's just sharing tea culture. That's contributing labor to the tea space.
Some examples of where sharing knowledge could get into problem areas:
-financially or otherwise profiting from sharing information without engaging with the Chinese tea community (both in China and abroad) and seeking to intentionally be non-extractive.
-telling people they're "doing it wrong" - especially if those people are Chinese, of Chinese descent, or have spent time living in China and you haven't.
-talking over other voices in a space or otherwise failing to hold space for other voices. Again, especially true if snuffed out voices are Chinese people, people of Chinese descent, or people who have spent time living in China.
These are just a few examples. It seems like you have a grasp on how to suss out lines and how to respect those lines, though, from your comment.
I think it's very cool that this discussion is happening here. Most people avoid this important subject and I appreciate you discussing it. Really makes me happy I'm a subscriber here.
Rose Namowicz like the Comments keep up the good work
nice live session
I think if you boil it down it always comes back to just respect. You can like something from an other culture an you can even borrow some stuff from other cultures. But you always have to remember that this means something to that other culture. If you're going to be using something from someone else his culture you just need to do it with respect. Having an African ritual mask because you find it an interesting historical/artistic object is not showing disripect hanging it in your toilet or hanging it next to a colonial map of Africa is.
Just be respectful to other people and you basically can come a very long way. Same goes for tea, just remember that there are nuances that you may not be able to grasp because of cultural heritage. That doesn't mean that you can't drink tea anymore.
Of course - and while for many a concept like "respect" is a no-brainer common sense type of thing, for others it can be difficult initially to understand where the lines are and why (and lines are different from different people's perspectives and in different contexts). One of the tough parts these days is that a side effect of mass exposure to multi-cultural society lessens the strength of ubiquitous consensus culture (a net good thing imo), thus making "common sense" a tougher thing for people in general due to lack of shared cultural/etiquette anchors.
Appreciate you watching and joining the discussion. We think it's an important one to open up and flesh out with the community.
@@TeaHouseGhost
I think that a problem from nowadays is also that people are starting to blur the line between online mentality, very direct and very aggressive, and offline mentality, which used to be a lot more respectful. for the simple reason that behind your pc your basically protected by a screen, in real life if your being an ass your not only going to get a verbal reasons you may also get a fiscal respons.
Yeah I know I'm not making a lot of sense and my explanation isn't super clear.
What I'm trying to say is that due to social media culture people are losing there filters, causing a lot of distress. On the other hand, it's not exactly a new problem so maybe I'm making connections that don't exist.
Still I find this a very important discussion to have and think that just talking about it is the only real way to get people to start think differently. I mean you could start building up the barricades but that ain't gonna be solving any problems.
Well that was a lot longer than interested.
Also the guys in Taiwan, don't know why but I'm getting a lot of cult vibes from that story.
Great discussion, and an important one. I think Western-centrism can take many subtle forms, and ought to be examined too. Our current discussion of norms and ethics on the subject of cultural appropriation can seem skewed in certain ways that I think are worth being reflective about. Why, for instance, we often consider it offensive for a westerner to wear the traditional (let’s say everyday, non-ceremonial) garb of another culture, but not offensive for peoples of other cultures to wear everyday western clothing. You could draw another analogy with Japanese whiskey culture, for instance, that as a thought experiment might be closer in nature to tea.
I worry that beneath this kind asymmetry on the topic there may be a certain sense of tacit western superiority/false-centrality-we the offenders but never the offended. It troubles me what may lie unexamined behind that attitude. I’ve had a number of conversations where this kind of single-direction principle goes unexamined, and it has a slightly patrician air I’ve come to mistrust, though it may be well-meaning.
I don’t know what the solution is, except perhaps a few precepts we might bring to a subject like this. One, we should not treat one culture (Western culture, American culture, etc.) as if it’s the centre of gravity around which everything else revolves. I think we ought to acknowledge the ways in which cultural influence flows in many directions at once, into and out of the cultures we belong to. That no individual has propriety or ownership of their own culture(s), but that cultural identity matters and ought to be respected, and that that’s a shared principle. That the subjects of cultural heritage and race (whatever we mean by that most imprecise word), though deeply intertwined, are not one and the same, and that this can matter. And that both empathy and respect is rooted in a sense of fellowship, not treating people as emissaries of something foreign and other, which, even when intended as politeness, usually makes one feel distanced (even objectified) rather than respected, at least in my experience.
I hope that doesn’t sound too prescriptive, but I do believe most of us want other’s to respect our differences, but ultimately to recognise our shared belonging beyond them, and I think that’s in the nature of treating people well across all boundaries, cultural or otherwise.
Thank you for this thoughtful post! I agree with you on most points! I would add that a specific difficulty lies in the fact that while on an individual level we may be able to effectively communicate these values (less centrism of culture, fluent multicultural perspective), the incumbent power structures are rooted, whether we like it or not, in many people's psyches. So, for western folks, especially white Americans, it becomes somewhat incumbent upon this demographic to recognize the situation overtly and not diminish its presence (from simply an acknowledgement standpoint) so as to help verify non-white American experiences in the west and thus help vault those voices to a cultural level playing field. This then becomes a foundation on which richer and more meaningful dialogues can occur.
@@TeaHouseGhost I hope so too, and I see things changing for the better in many ways currently. Though of course it means bringing to the light some personal and sometimes very painful subjects and experiences, I think that’s how healing begins. I think most of my criticisms/thoughts are in a way self-directed, towards the culture I grew up around-broadly speaking a white western liberal middle-class, which post the civil rights era has enjoyed decades of viewing itself as both cosmopolitan and yet separate from most of these questions, which has itself been a kind of delusion that we’re in a process of questioning and exorcising, to some extent I hope. That’s very broad of course, but in aggregate I think it speaks to something that may be changing, and discussions like yours (even ours) must be a part of it, however small. I completely agree that, though there are noble universalist principles always worth remembering, the current structures of power make them ideals, and there is the reality to attend to.
I remain reflexively wary of the ways in which these conversations (broadly) can sometimes have a tendency to exclude the context of the wider world, and the many complexities and realties beyond the west, though this isn’t directed towards the discussion here. And there are always pitfalls on either side of the path as you try to navigate your way through such a deep and complex subject, and endless opportunities for expanding one’s own thinking and awareness, it can feel overwhelming. I hope above all we can be generous in allowing each other space to think and work through these things, it can take us somewhere better in time, even if it’s hard to see it in the present, we’re probably undergoing the painful process of metamorphosis. If we all hold on to our hats we’ll make it through. And wouldn’t you know, that old devil tea is once again quietly acting as catalyst for conversations like this, as it always has been, with hilarious consistency, across time and place.
That s need a post prod vidéo process. 😅 but the content is so good 😄❤️
This was an AMAZING discussion. Holy moly was this an enlightening and fun listen. I've been putting it off because I was scared to hear hard truths, and I'll admit my confidence is a little shaken- but that's okay! Since I'm white I'm very lucky and privileged to live an existence free from the existential horror of colonialism and discrimination.
One thing that's been difficult for me, however, is finding spiritual and cultural fulfillment. White culture is largely a culture of colonialism, and little else. As a result I'm always searching for some sort of group or identity that I can share and connect to with others. One of the things that drove me to tea is the nature of sitting across the table from another person of a different background and sharing a single moment together.
I've been fearful that I have been "colonizing" Chinese culture by finding passion and meaning in tea culture. Maybe I am, to some extent, but I'm putting an honest effort into humbling myself before people who know the culture authentically.
Heres my question: is it wrong of me to create my own meaning around tea as a white person who is distanced from the original culture? I don't want to bastardize an entire history, but at the same time I've found a spark and passion in tea that I feel is deeply personal.
Thank you for bringing attention to this topic, and for taking the time to educate someone privileged like me on something that is so greatly important. Amazing panel
It is in no way wrong of you to create your own meaning around tea! That is ABSOLUTELY what you are ENCOURAGED to do! This is the heart of appreciation and it is how tea culture spreads, is by good stewards sharing the culture with their friends in their own way.
I understand the hesitation you feel, potentially like walking on egg shells, and I think many white people feel this way. But your love for tea and tea culture is not where the issue sits. I think the thing to realize when it comes to colonisation is that it is incumbent upon those with power to educate themselves so as not to abuse that power, because people with power can abuse it without even knowing they're doing it. And in the case of white people, there is power that white people of today have inherited, whether they condone the methods of that inheritance or not. So it is the responsibility of white people to educate themselves on how to engage with other cultures in healthy ways.
As long as people are educated about how to appreciate a culture without appropriating it, then it is totally encouraged that they allow that appreciation to blossom! Thus they become a part of that culture's continuing story without stealing it.
We hope this conversation provides some means for people to educate themselves. These two have provided lots of good insights.
There is also a certain part of colonization that is exotification of The Other.
The We can be seen as real people, and thus have real flaws. Whiles The Other can be less than real. Sometimes less, sometimes more. Like the idea of the Noble Savage.
Or like how some white people can think that asians somehow are magical. Or that certain brown people can be magical. While the Whites, being real people, are not. There is offcoarse some problems with this kind of thinking.
Not saying that this is what you are describing. Just think that this critique is relevant to know in this kind of discussion.
A few points , china is VERY diverse , with individual cities and villages having their own language
Tea in china is actually a form of appropriation from SE asian people who were attempting to escape over taxation from various Han dynasties in beijing , as all tea originates from wild plants in ethnic yunnan , Vietnam ,myanmar and assam
How can we have discussions of gongfu tea , while completely ignoring chao zhou retail merchants and their language and history? Yet everyone does. Because at some point it is just too complex , nobody can fluently learn and speak global english , standard mandarin , chao shanese and ethnic minority Dai , Wa , Hmong and other languages. There is a limit to life, fortunately so we can all get some rest
Well said!
That Girl is Trying to hard yo....
I’m consistently questioned about the reliability or honesty of Chinese tea merchants. At the same time I hear people having confidence in tea merchants in North America, Great Britain or Europe. This seems to be more than old school discrimination because I don’t hear this about ethnically Chinese vendors who live in North America for example. This seems to me to be a cultural judgment I.E. Chinese people in China are systematically defrauding the West or Westerners. Certainly there are folks who don’t fulfill obligations and/or disappoint in all parts of the world. This is a form of appropriation in my opinion, that “tranfers” authority and legitimacy of tea to many who have never even touched a living tea bush.
Yeah I often ask folks with strong opinions on china or Chinese people if they've been there. If they haven't, it's a grain of salt, y'know. Feel this being a Texan too. Folks who have never been to Texas have a lot of ideas about what it means to be a Texan or live in Texas.
I love china and Chinese people , I have Chinese on two sides of my family , yet I HATE buying tea in china , while living in China I bought tea from a Westerner , Yunnan sourcing
Sometimes in china I would stumble upon amazing tea by luck but never while shopping for tea , always was a total nightmare
Cultural appropriation vs appreciation is a false dichotomy because appreciation per se doesn't take participation into account. Cultural appropriation can be more simply defined I think as taking a cultural thing out of its original context and reapplying it in a way that disrespects or excludes its origin, for example Rasta wigs or henna tattoos. What happens to culture once it comes into contact with a foreign country? Often it is assimilated, which is different from appropriation in the modern context. Take Buddhism for example which came from India of course but traveled through China and then Japan, transforming along the way to fit the needs of the people and was ultimately represented by them. In the tea world, I think this can be applied to the way tea traveled to the UK and was assimilated and re-contextualized into UK cultural items like Earl Grey. Or take hip hop for example, which is no longer just black culture or even American culture but a global phenomenon that has changed shape and culture indescriminately. I think a lot of what goes on in the tea community at least in America comes down to marketing, not appropriation. When people talk about clean/organic teas I think it reflects consumer values within polluted countries. Whether or not these claims are exaggerated I'm not sure, but I know that most if not all tea vendors from my experience have discussed pesticides and pollution to some extent, and their general advice is that you should buy tea from trusted vendors. I don't think the woman you talked to should be faulted for trusting someone (white or not) that she already established a relationship with.
I'll continue to watch the video. I haven't finished it, but I want to talk about this important topic as I have more time throughout the week.
Yes I think I see some of what you're getting at with the British tea example and the hip hop example. Both have certainly been appropriated by folks looking to cash in on the popularity, but also both have been remixed into new cultural contexts by well-meaning folks just adapting something culturally foreign to their specific contexts. It's a fine line. Part of why we felt this discussion was a necessary one to have in public. Good to open up the dialogue.
@@TeaHouseGhost Also, this is for Rui Liu: you are incredibly brave for being so vulnerable about your experiences publicly, and even though I don't know you, I sense that you are a beautiful and sensitive (not negative in an overly sensitive way, but attentive and careful) person. Sometimes people don't have the intention to be as nefarious as their actions come across to us; I'm black, and whenever I experience something that I could perceive has happened to me solely because of racist worldviews, I try to give the person the benefit of the doubt and recognize that people act out of innumerable life situations and states of mind. Sometimes people aren't racist, they're just assholes in general. I'm not saying that in an attempt to diminish or negate your trauma, but I think also as people of color, we tend to categorize general assholery into what we've seen and sometimes expect as racist. That's not to say that assholes can't be assholes because they're racist, but I try not to get caught up on reasons why they're assholes unless it's blatant. The reason why is cuz I don't think it's our job to be everyone's therapist; it puts a lot of mental pressure on us and sometimes, from what I've seen, it can make us feel inadequate and make us question our own value as people. I'm not sure how this came across, but essentially I'm saying that you seem amazing, and I can't tell you what to do obviously, but I wish you the best and don't let negative people ruin your day
@@jamesw.9256 Thanks for the message! Will forward to her!
Maybe it was just general china/Taiwan hate? Not necessarily just cism
Sorry - coming at this comment having not rewatched this in a bit - can you clarify your question/comment?
@@TeaHouseGhost in your story about the Caucasian tea cult in Taiwan, you mention they believe China to be evil and poisonous
I thought it might not be #asianhate and possibly more specifically Taiwan/China tensions
我是一名工程师，我不懂英文。这则视频我是靠着翻译看完的。我来看这些个视频的原因仅仅是因为我一直喝的一款瓶装茶停产了，我在为复刻它找找灵感。
我来谈谈自己的看法。
首先呢我感觉这视频讨论的与文化挪用没太大关系，文化挪用通常会被认为是一种肤浅的，粗鲁的，不优雅的行为。在美国看到文化挪用现象通常不会让人感到意外。（原谅我的刻板印象，美国在知识分子的眼中通常是一个没什么品味的地方哈）在中国同样也会有很多文化挪用的现象--你可以去看下曹斐的一些作品，里面经常会有一些对于那些奇异的，粗鲁的，很不优雅的文化挪用行为的表现。（用这种“现象“来提喻中国的“发展”历程一直是他艺术作品的一个核心主题）。
男嘉宾所述的第一个问题是一个经典的常发生于英美等国的阴谋论论调，其背后原因很复杂--即有英国人为遮掩其不光彩的历史行为的舆论攻势，又有大公司为讳饰自身产品等级不够高而丑化“竞品”的商业宣传（虽然中国茶行业对于出口这件事的态度一直不是很“积极”），甚至于其背后还有着传统资本主义国家对于”马克思主义国家“的意识形态统战。
看到男嘉宾就此问题出离的生气我感到非常有意思，我想说男嘉宾面对这种情况而感到困窘的原因并不是来源于男嘉宾自身，这背后反映了美国以及世界上大多数国家的主流思想--将血统与文化绑定到一起。这种血统论的思想显然是错误的，而导致这种思想横行的原因很明显是因为马克思主义思想传播的不足。男嘉宾在节目的后期说了很多捍卫文化之类的观点，我认为这是不利于民族融合的，但我就此不想过多的加以赘述，我想说的是在这个问题上我们明显的忽略了房间里的两头大象（我并不是一个阴谋论者）--麦卡锡及杜鲁门主义，以及在其指导下的激进的洗脑与欺骗。（我说这些的原因并不是因为我觉得中共多好--相反，我觉得他有不好的地方。但是仅在哲学教育方面--我认为它做的是足够的。）
男嘉宾所述的第二个问题与女士所反映的问题其实有着异曲同工之妙，在我看来反映了一种执着的心态，有点类似于那些带有些许荒诞色彩的“皈依者狂热”现象。先来说女嘉宾所述的那个关于”水“的讨论。利玛窦时期罗马教皇曾和中国信徒就是否应该将祖先和孔子与上帝摆在一起供奉的话题展开过激烈的讨论--对神学理解程度的不同以及自身文化背景的不同造就了这戏谑的一幕。我虽然没能完全领会那位女士说的关于水的内容，但我想他想要表述的无非跟中国传统道家思想”上善若水”之类的有关。要知道，整个道家学说自起点以来就已经站在了形而上学的顶端。其中的第二句话“名可名，非常名”和第三句话“无名天地之始，有名万物之母”）就已经涵盖了维特根斯坦毕生的学术著述内容，更何况中国的传统哲学思想除了道家还有佛家（在我看来佛家思想要比道家思想更加深奥）。学习中国的哲学对于中国本国人来讲都是十分困难的，用体制批判的方法来比较的话释迦牟尼至今还站在整个哲学金字塔的顶端（这个金字塔囊括了所有现代主义、后现代主义、马克思主义等等诸般的哲学流派），在此背景下一个西方人想要从头的理解中国哲学时所面临的困难是可见一斑的（这通常意味着你要彻底抛弃你们所受的形而上学教育从而完全地转向后现代，很多哲学家都不能做到这点）。由此我们就可以引申到男女嘉宾随后讨论到的那个关于“名定”的问题，我想这关乎到我们所受的有关形而下的教育--不论是佛、道还是马克思，都将形而下作为其思想的核心。（同时我们也应该看到包括梅洛庞蒂等现象学家的主张在内的一众形而下思想在英美等国得不到足够的重视，甚至是被遮蔽。）
话题回到男嘉宾所述的那个关于“黄茶”定义的讨论，我觉得这个讨论是十分“积极”的，我不觉得这跟男嘉宾口中的“文化主体性”又有什么关系，茶只是一种饮料而已，谁都可以以自己的方式来定义什么是茶。（我自己就经常对我看不顺眼的事情重新定义。）只不过最后我们通常都会认可更科学更符合世界运行规律的定义而已。
我看到标题中有“挪用”二字便不自觉的点了进来。（挪用与提喻是中国当代艺术界的一个非常热门的课题)，作为一名知识分子总是不能自控的想要对其夸夸其谈一番。
我非常认同你们对于茶文化的推广。在中国茶通常跟灵性、哲学、文化联系到一起，在我看来，茶作为一种催化剂，的确有助于人们灵性的启发和对于哲学的思考。
你好! My (Erik's) Chinese is not quite good enough to be able to articulate all that I'd like to in my response, so I hope that you are able to translate this and that we are able to understand one another.
First off thank you for watching the video and for your thoughtful response.
I was unfamiliar with the work of Cao Fei until I read your post. I've looked her up on Wikipedia, and I am very interested to dive into her artwork. Seems really fascinating! Thank you for the recommendation.
With regard to this first issue So-Han brings up, about prejudice toward Chinese products as being dubious or of inadequate quality: yes this is a complicated issue with many spidering roots. Attempts by ruling powers (such as UK or USA and their various multinational corporations, media engines, and other extensions of power) to rewrite a historical perspective to erase their misbehavior and favor the products and streams of commerce that allow for these ruling powers to profit is something we are, sadly, all too familiar with. A lack of understanding between the cultures of the USA and China leaves many opportunities open for people with power and resources to exploit this lack of knowledge for personal gain.
I am intrigued by this line of thinking about So-Han (the male guest, as you refer to him) being "embarrassed by the situation" and how this relates to lack of conversation about Marxism. Could you elaborate on this?
I'm also not sure I understand your point about "defending culture" and how it relates to McCarthyism and Truman Doctrine. Would you mind clarifying this?
With regard to the metaphysical and phenomenological elements of the latter part of the conversation: this could be a deep rabbit hole to dive into, and I don't have time right now to get into it, but thank you for your points. I haven't read any Marleau-Ponty myself, but I will look into it.
Yes, I agree with your viewpoint with regard to the Yellow Tea portion of the discussion. Some things aren't so easily defined or don't fit neatly into a box. People define things in their own ways, and that adds nuance. This is especially important in a craft/art such as making tea. The unique ways that people approach this craft or art become part of the uniqueness of their final product. This is something to be celebrated.
My translation says that you noticed the word "Misappropriation" in the title. However, in English, the word we used was simply "Appropriation" - not "misappropriation." I would imagine these words have different meanings in Chinese as well. Interested to know why "misappropriation" is a hot topic among Chinese intellectuals.
Thank you again for your response. Happy to be sharing ideas and tea together.
@@TeaHouseGhost"杜鲁门主义（英语：Truman Doctrine）是在美国总统杜鲁门任期内形成的美国对外政策，成为第二次世界大战后美国的对外政策核心。希腊内战期间，杜鲁门于1947年3月12日发表《国情咨文》，主张：“自由人民正在抵抗少数武装份子或外来势力征服之意图，美国政策必须支持他们。”杜鲁门认为，极权主义裹挟自由人民，形成对于国际和平与美国国家安全的威胁。[1]他因此要求国会为援助土耳其和希腊政府，拨款4亿美元，防止当地落入共产党手中。一般认为，这是杜鲁门主义正式形成的起点。历史学家埃里克·福纳（英语：Eric Foner）认为，杜鲁门主义“成为美国在世界各地援助反共政权（无论其多不民主）的先例，并建立一套针对苏联的全球军事联盟。”[2]美国为了防止共产主义在世界任何地方出现并协助欧洲国家偿还美国贷款与协助美国公司战后的成长，因此实行“马歇尔计划”，援助西欧国家，解救他们战后的贫困，以防止发生革命。美国也大力发展军备，仅在1948年一年内就将核武器的储备从13枚扩展到50多枚。因此杜鲁门主义也是冷战的开始，彻底改变了罗斯福时代的美国对外政策，奠定了战后世界的基本格局。“
"麦卡锡主义（英语：McCarthyism）广义上是指用大规模的宣传和不加以区分的指责，特别是没有足够证据的指控，造成对人格和名誉的诽谤。 另外，这个词语在英语里的定义也延伸到“用不充分的证据公开指责对方政治上的不忠或颠覆，或者是用不公平的调查或指责来打压反对人士”。 这个词语源自于1950年代以美国共和党参议员约瑟夫·雷蒙德·麦卡锡为代表的一种政治态度。 麦卡锡认为共产党渗透了美国政府的一些部门以及其他机构。 为了阻止国家被颠覆，他用大规模的宣传和不加以区分的指责，制造了一系列的调查和听证去曝光这些渗透。 虽然很多被指控者是无辜的，但因为这些指控，当时被列入了黑名单或失去了工作。 ”
以上呢，是维基百科对于这两个词的定义。
通常马克思主义思想不主张将血统和文化联系到一起。
另外我并没有在行文中出现“盗用”这个词，我对您提出的这个问题表示费解。
很遗憾过了这么长时间才回复您。
秋安
basically, cultural appropriation is cultural appreciation
It can start that way, yes. But there are lines that take certain behaviors, especially where money/power is involved, out of the realm of appreciation and into the realm of appropriation. I think this conversation presents good points to this end but happy to extend the conversation.
It's more than appreciation, though. It might be a beautiful style for you, but in its original culture it might be a priestly garment.
Imagine someone wearing the garb of the pope, and doing the laundry, or sorting the trash, or using that garb in a profane way, like part of a sexual fantasy.
Imagine how offended a catholic might be.
That's the kind of disrespect, even if unintentional , that some of this appreciation can have. One must take care.
This is true. It's tough getting the education out there - we hope by opening up this conversation can be an avenue for folks to educate themselves and thus be able to educate others.
Rui is going with that hot librarian look. Melted the ice in my cup of tea.
50:11 "Language is descriptive not prescriptive"
Wrong. There are over 100 regulatory bodies across the globe who decide how language is to be spoken.
Language is prescriptive, English academics try to pretend it's not because they're all conceited contrarians, but the way language operates everywhere else in the world proves they're wrong.
Language without regulation ceases to be language at all, you just get a splintering of infinitely different languages and you are no longer speaking whatever language it was you just butchered to make up your own words.
So, your position is that languages didn't exist until regulating bodies existed, then? I understand your point, and I used to agree. Now I think it's asinine. If you are understood, that is generally enough. Anything more is for academia.
Curious what you're referring to as "regulation" for language? If you're talking about things like dictionaries and other such guides on standard usage of language, I think these are tools that help people learn how language works, but with anything that is still living, such as language or art or the tea practice, breaking the rules or inventing new ways can be useful for evolving the language/art/craft. To me, I enjoy the axiom that it is wise to learn the rules so that you can break them in good and meaningful ways.
People can naturally come to consensus about meaning in a conversational environment (as I'm sure we have all experienced). This has always been my primary way of understanding meaning with language (conversation, that is) as opposed to looking for the rule book. But that's me.
this is such a silly idea. people can claim there is a right and proper way to speak and write all they want but if language wasn't self-evolving we'd all be able to read Chaucer. calling language descriptive is just admitting that rules change over time, and that if rules change over time then there's not much sense in getting bent out of shape every time rules are broken.
Thank you Rei, So-Han, and Marco for this really illuminating video. I'm a "pale, male and stale" British-born person who is very new to the world of good tea. I thought I was "one of the good guys" because I'm aware of the historical British capitalist abuses of China, India, South East Asia. Listening to So-Han and Rei really opened my eyes, head & heart to some of the more subtle ways in which I bring ingrained imperialist baggage to the world of tea. (and I'm straying into performative White guilt here, so time to wind up). I already subscribed to TeaHouseGhost (big love to all at WCT), and I've just signed up to GPT's newsletter (what a lovely project). Best. J 🫖
Good to have ya here, mate!
@@TeaHouseGhost Cheers! I posted a link to this video on Reddit's r/tea (post title "Interesting discussion about tea, culture, appreciation and appropriation") and it got some interesting responses. I've been astonished to see some of the 'White-man-take-Chinese-name-sell-spirituality-make-big-dollar' cults, sorry communities, online. Oooooft - colonialism continues to be strong and highly profitable in the tea world :| Could you advise on how I can go about ensuring that the farmers and their communities benefit from the tea I buy please? I'm moving from Western vendors to buying more direct from those in Taiwan and China, but haven't found a tea equivalent of (Western income-generating) FairTrade certification. Any pointers please?