I Drive A Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle For The First Time!
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- čas přidán 25. 04. 2022
- Kyle is in Pasadena, California with a 2021 Toyota Mirai! In this video he takes you on a tour of the car, discusses how the drivetrain works, how hydrogen fueling works, and takes the car out for a drive for his usual driving analysis.
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#Toyota #Mirai #FCEV - Auta a dopravní prostředky
As someone who drove a Mirai for a years and was t-boned by a work truck going 50 mph, they don't explode like a hydrogen bomb.
Check out what happened in the hydrogen station that blew up in Sandvika, Norway! It only happened because 2 bolts were tightened slighly too little. Luckily nobody was nex to the station. But it shows how unsafe and unpredictable these accidents are. You could never know how well a hydrogen tank is put togother or maintened. And you have no warning or time to run if something happens. That is why I don't want pressurized hydrogen.
@@jimj2683 Right, because gas stations have never exploded in the past, lol
@@jimj2683 the amount of energy in a hydrogen fuell tank is about 70% less than what is stored in a LPG gas tank or fuell tank. They do not explode. Stop spamming this on nothing based bull shit.
I’ve had a Mirai for 3 years in LA. It has been an amazing car as my daily driver. Maybe once or twice have I had an issue fueling. For someone who drives a lot it’s great if you live in or around LA and SF. You should talk to the guys at SunLine transit in Palm Springs I think they have the worlds largest FCEV fleet. If the infrastructure were everywhere these things would sell like mad. The Mirai is a very fun very comfortable great commuter car!
I would get one as well!!
The reviews of the new Mirai are very positive.
I thought so.
Toyota needs to convert their dealerships into fueling stations for hydro and increase the 15K preloaded card to 30K. I'd buy one at that value.
The reason why they don't have any infrastructure supporting hydrogen is because they themselves don't believe in it .
Plenty of hydrogen in world. Plus hydrogen from sh1t!
@@seymorefact4333 There's even more electrons. Even hydrogen, the most abundant element in the universe, has electrons.
@@flipadavis bingo.. just need more stations.
@@seymorefact4333 Of course EVs also use electrons and one can find those anywhere and everywhere.
Yes, the fuel cell directly powers the motor without running through the battery. The battery is for regenerative braking and for augmenting the peak power output.
Hey Rennie representing the FB Mirai Owners!! 🤘🏼
interesting, we need to revisit
Incorrect.. any load not PERFECTLY equal to the fuel cell will go through the battery. Energy MUST be consumed or stored, the fuel cell doesn’t “rev” up or down only on or off.
@@cybertrk depends, with spyros panopoulos, the software manages which channels of the fuel cell operate, according to accelerator travel, from (0 to 1750hp), also in other systems excess can be pumped into an 02 tank and H20 tank, and purged inside or outside the "cabin"
further an electroyzer can be fueled when excess electricity comes out of the fuel cell
When you have a battery and charger (the fuel cell) in parallel, the power does not "go through" the battery on the way to the motor. The battery and motor are in parallel, and when the power from fuel cell is less than what the motor is using, power flows out of the battery and adds to power from the fuel cell to make up the total. Moments later, when you stop accelerating the power from the fuel cell can be more than what the motor is using, and the surplus flows into the battery to recharge it. It takes several seconds for the output of the fuel cell to be ramped up or down, so it's up to the battery to do the very short term burst of power.
If any new technology is remotely close to competing with current tech, then, it’s just a matter of time, investment of resources and brain power, and we can make anything better than it currently is. People with limited minds are the ones who dismiss something new because it’s not perceived to be as good as the current tech they know, even though history is riddled with examples of new ideas overcoming existing stigmas. Why must everything compete? Some people love a large house, some love a small apartment. Those two markets aren’t competing for buyers, there is something for everyone. I like the idea of hydrogen power more than battery alone because I live in Nebraska. We’re far from everywhere and we like a road trip. Saying we shouldn’t explore ideas other than battery power is narrow-minded thinking as it limits humanity from growing.
Some ideas are bad tho, there’s a reason they haven’t grown hydrogen stations nearly as quickly as ev charge stations. Cost of all this fuel cell development could go towards ev charging network
Also this technologie is merely a distraction. There is a reason why you they showed the charging of this car at a Chevron gas station. It's green washing by the fossil industrie. They talk about how clean hydrogen could be produced in the future but in the end today most of it comes from fossil methan. They want to sell you this as an eco friendly alternative to EVs but all they try is to keep their product in the marked for as long as the can, the hydrogen is just a obscuring the fossil, and even worst it's wasting energie along the way.... they could sell you a methan ICE car with better total efficiency than this but then the fossil would be obvious...
Fuel Cells are hardly new technology. Neither are EVs. It's important understand exactly why each idea hasn't been adopted widely. For EVs, it's really just battery technology. In recent years, there have been enough progress in batteries to make EVs viable. If you magically made today's battery technology available in 1900, everyone would be driving an EV today.
For FC cars, the problem is multiple-fold: the production of hydrogen (inefficient compared to EV charging and possibly reliant on fossil fuels), transfer (hydrogen pumps are more complex than gas pumps, and much more expensive than DC fast chargers), and storage (H2 tanks are bulky and take away quite a bit of passenger / cargo space). You'd need to solve all those issues to make them just equal to ICE vehicles, and you'll never be able to make it as convenient as plugging in an EV at home.
It’s not new. It’s been stagnant for years and has barely progressed. For it to get better and be as good as BEVs currently are, it will need a ton of breakthroughs and BEVs will have to sit still. Doesn’t seem very likely to me
@@jonathanfields4ever You could say the same thing about EVs compared to ICE.
If it has 5.5kg tank capacity, and it says it can do 350 miles on a full tank, then the efficiency would be 63.63miles/kg. If a kg of H2O costs $13, then a full tank will set you back $71. Again, it does 350 miles, then it costs roughly 20 cents per mile to run this car because 71÷350 is 0.20
The $15k free hydrogen will give you 211x full tanks, and it'll give you 74,000 miles of driving.
Just a little note: "H2O" is the chemical formula for water, not hydrogen. Hydrogen is just "H". But I see your point.
But that $15k credit expires in 3 years. So you have to drive about 25k miles each year.
Another point nobody mentions.
This car has 141 litres of Hydrogen tank.
That's a lot of volume taken up.
Not to mention the lithium battery!
(It has HALF the luggage capacity of a model 3, and the battery is behind the rear seats, so no folding them forward!)
@@rogerstarkey5390 Not to mention he notes how batteries are heavy but this RWD Mirai weighs more than a Model 3 LR AWD (both have the same range).
@@bytemark6508 In molecular form as it would be in this case in the car, hydrogen is H2.
Imma be honest, if hydrogen filling, saves me an hour instead of charging, I'm all for it.
Only saves if you can’t charge at home or at work. If you can charge at home/work, you’ll save a lot of time overall with EV.
But you can charge electric at home while you watch TV.
Just be sure not to leave California!
A Tesla can charge from 10ish% to 60% in 12 to 15 minutes. No one sits at a supercharger for an hour. Thats absurd. Well unless your an Out of Spec guy and run it to 0%. 😅
if you disregard tire pulp, (tire particles from standard wear which is also a from of pollution) this car leaves the air in better shape then it took in (due to the very high quality air filtration of the air O2 scavenging system)
It doesn't leave any air behind, that's marketing not truth, a fuel cell takes oxygen from the air, filters it, then turns the oxygen into water and exhausts water, not oxygen. The result is that the air now contains less oxygen and more nitrogen and pollutants. It also dirties the water with the pollutants, so you can't even drink it.
Possible counterpoint to the “batteries are too heavy for trucking”, is that hydrogen tanks seem to take up a lot of volume. You can see how much space it takes in this car to get the range it does. Not claiming it’s worse, rather it’s possible that future trucking will use one or the other based on their specific routine; whether you need more cargo volume or weight capacity.
I drove Semis for many years... If you look under one.. and then imagine the transmission and engine and current fuel tanks gone.. There is LOTS of room. OTR semis can have two 150 gallon tanks mounted on the sides. you could easily fit those same tanks in between the frame rails if you removed the transmission and driveshaft. An H2 tank would hold less.. lots of extra reinforcing needed in those tanks.. so probably 1/2 the internal volume of a diesel tank of the same size. And I am not sure I would want them mounted outside the frame.. little to exposed for safety.
seems to me trucks that go back to a terminal every night would benefit the most. OTR stuff would need the infrastructure built.. IMHO.. that is not likely.. Nor is Battery electric for the same reason.
The LPG fueled big rigs often stack the tanks behind the cab.
Exactly! Compressed hydrogen has *high specific energy* (stored energy per unit mass), but *low energy density* (stored energy per unit volume).
That is why it will only have limited value for airplanes: Even as liquid hydrogen (which is even less efficient to produce from renewable sources), it’s still takes a lot of space away from paying passengers and cargo!
Great video, thank you for doing this. Btw., there is a lot of knowledge around H2 production and cars, and even H2 station and a test car at NREL (National Renewable Energy Laboratory) in Golden, Colorado. If you can make some arrangements with NREL, that may save you some time/money. Just a suggestion.
I'd love to see range tests.
Awesome review! Heck yeah I'd like for you to have a hydrogen generator in Colorado and run these cars around there. And it'd be cool to see a 70 mph range test on it.
There is maintenance: the filters that clean the air before it enters the fuel cell need to be changed periodically, and the fuel cell itself needs to be replaced every 100,000-150,000 miles, which costs almost as much as the whole car lol 😄
And that's about it. Same thing years earlier made me change my view on hydrogen. Toyota have made wonders for the fuel cell but it is still the weak spot in hydrogen vehicle. And then there is the price of hydrogen. And if you want environmentally friendly hydrogen, it gets worse. IMO
Not true... Toyota claimed the fuel cell will last the lifetime of the car. The only maintenance item is the filter which can be replace in 5 mins.. parts cost 200+tax though.
@@rann7588 we are both right: the lifetime of a fuel cell car *IS* 100,000-150,000 miles lol
I don’t hate Hydrogen. I just know that it isn’t efficient if you consider the entire process and it isn’t cost effective.
Exactly
🔌As a power generation engineer that works for a company that mfgs propane, natural gas, diesel, battery, and hydrogen drive trains I was glad to hear your feedback. It will be interesting when McLaren's solid-state hydrogen race car and Nikola's compressed hydrogen trucks hit the market in the next three years out of Arizona. There are many hydrogen jets, planes, generators, agricultural equipment, ships, construction, trains, and trucks in design and already available to purchase but only a few companies are producing and addressing transporting the fuel.🔌
Great video. Interesting content!
It's good to see there's a button for the car to mark territory.
I wonder how much work it would take for a roadside assistance truck to carry hydrogen to get one of these going again when people starting riding "E" in them because fueling up is so much more of pain than just plugging in overnight.
Old tech. My '62 Chevy marks it's territory automatically!
You'd need to flatbed if you run out of hydrogen, I'd think. Meanwhile, my EV6 could stop and charge a fellow dead EV if needed from its included "vehicle to load" adapter.
I live in San Diego and considered a Mirai when the second gen came out because it was so much nicer than 1st gen, and we hardly ever road trip. However even though I am in Southern California the closest hydrogen station to my house is 32 miles away, which was just not something I wanted to deal with on a regular basis, having to drive 64 miles round trip to refuel my car, or have to plan to refuel at some point when I was maybe close to that station on a certain day, cuz I'm almond never up in the area where the station is. Just too much to think about, so went with another EV. But I can see the allure to some if the circumstances are right.
Hence, why BEV and filling up at home in your garage is better than hydrogen for consumers.
@@outofthebox5441 Hydrogen vehicles don't address any of these issues. For starters, most hydrogen fill-ups typically involve a wait time of 5-30 minutes, not including the 5 minutes it takes to fill. Hydrogen stations have a pretty low throughput rate, and a can only fill about 50 vehicles per day before requiring another truck to bring hydrogen. After a few fills, the station requires "internal charging" for pressurization, so a lot of the time you're either looking at a station with no fuel, or you're waiting in lineup because the station is re-pressuring. Gas stations with much faster throughput rates can already get quite busy and have wait times, now imagine this process with 2-3x as long of a wait time, and how insanely busy that will get. A theoretically "fast" refueling time doesn't mean much if you have to wait for half an hour, or delay your refueling entirely because a station is too busy. Most BEVs will be home charging, so there's less competition to use fast charging infrastructure, and level 2 charging stations are becoming extremely common, it's conceivable that people who can't charge at home could just charge on a level 2 station near their workplace.
As for environmental concerns, you're still shifting that 500,000 pounds (or maybe more) raw earth to build the batteries, hydrogen tanks and fuel cells in a hydrogen vehicle. Price and weight of a vehicle are pretty good indicators of environmental impact of manufacturing, and you'll notice that hydrogen vehicles are more expensive than BEVs across the board, and quite often heavier, meaning they probably have a higher environmental impact than BEVs. For instance, a RWD Ioniq 5 in Canada is $49,000 and weighs 4200 lbs, and a FWD Mirai is $53,000 and weighs 4255 lbs - the Ioniq 5 is also a much bigger vehicle with more cargo space and passenger room. So, the Mirai is heavier than an Ioniq 5 or Tesla Model 3, it's a smaller vehicle than both of those, and yet there's more mass of material used in it's construction, and it's more expensive, indicating the higher intensity of manufacturing. So no, there's no discernable improvement in environmental impact.
@@outofthebox5441 Gets away from OPEC yes, but just opens up paths for more control via the Natural Gas industry - just trading one fossil fuel overlord for another one. The "oil curse" is fundamentally the result of the ability of states and corportation to consolidate and monopolize energy supplies. Battery electric vehicles enable the democratization of energy - no single or group entity can completely control the supply of electricity, because individuals are capable of producing their own electricity with home solar, wind, or hydroelectric. Things might get better for hydrogen once "green" hydrogen from renewables becomes more common, but storing and moving hydrogen is well beyond the scope of individual people, and corportations will still be able to completely control the energy supply and prices as they do now.
@@outofthebox5441 *There will never be enough hydrogen stations to provide fast service.* There's 13,000 FCV cars in California, and 52 hydrogen stations, that's a ratio of 250 cars to 1 station, and right now there's already big lineups. Compare that to 14 million gas/diesel cars and California, and 10,000 gas stations, that's 1400 cars per gas station. Right here we can see the problem already, hydrogen vehicles need basically 5x as many fueling stations in order to match the service capacity of gas stations. If you wanted to get the same speed of service as current gas stations, there'd need to be 50,000 hydrogen stations in just California. Each station requires at least 1 million dollars in subsidies, so that's 50 billion dollars in subsidies just to build the required infrastructure in California alone. This is an absolute non-starter, hydrogen infrastructure cannot be scaled up, it is economically impossible. For comparison, the electric grid has naturally increased in size by a factor of 4x in the last 30 years, so increasing the size of the electric grid is not a difficult or impossible task.
@@outofthebox5441 If you think the power grid will have a problem with EVs then you can't be advocating for hydrogen as it takes 3 to 6 times as much electricity to make green hydrogen as to just put it in an EV. That means that whatever upgrades the grid needs for EVs it needs at minimum a 3 orders of magnitude more for hydrogen. I also know if you are worried about mining you really don't want a hydrogen car as they also have lithium batteries and need additional rare earth minerals like platinum and palladium. Also considering there are far more people that have access to garages or places to charge than there are places to fill up on hydrogen then you make a bad argument in wanting hydrogen because the cost to build a hydrogen station starts at around $2 million and goes up from there compared to an EV station that can serve just as many cars yet cost 1/4 the amount plus we will need far less EV charging station because most people will charge at home.
Why would anyone hate hydrogen, it's pretty cool. To me it's better than an EV, just needs more availability.
It's about 20 years two late, very expensive refueling if Toyota doesn't give it away, and extremely inefficient. We already have electricity everywhere!
Less efficiency, and it’s been talked about for decades with no movement on expanding the refueling stations at any meaningful scale. They’re so expensive to maintain you’re not gonna see that availability improve
Judging from the video, I am surprised how sporty it seems to be. Nice ride-along!
Suggestion for your efficiency metric. Cost per mile driven? It would work for all types of vehicles and it is what people really want to see. You would probably have to state some standard info to normalize it like :
For Ice cars 25 mpg and $5 per gallon
For electric $.25 per kWh
For hydrogen $16.51 per kg
Food for thought. I really enjoy your videos.
The difficult part for cost-per-mile especially for EVs is the often *WILDLY* different prices. Gasoline varies from place to place, but only by a factor of 2-3 (one recent article shows the cheapest "average statewide price" gas in the continental US was $3.77 in a couple states in the Midwest, $5.86 in California, figure a few individual states with individual stations in the low $2.xx range, a few in the high $7.xx range) - but electricity price can vary more than that just for one person based on where they charge. For me, my local Electrify America is 10 times as much as I pay to charge at home. (43 cents per kWh at EA, 4 cents per kWh when I charge overnight off-peak.)
When I charge my Ford Mach-E at EA, I pay $11 per 100 miles driven. When I charge at home overnight, I pay $1.05 per 100 miles driven. Heck, I'll pay 3 times as much just if I have to charge during peak times at home instead of off-peak.
Compare to a Prius - the cheapest "average gas price in the state" in the country would be ~$7 for 100 miles, the most expensive would be ~$11.
@@AnonymousFreakYT that is why I added the normalization factors. That way you could adjust for your local factors.
4 cents per kWh is amazing. My off peak is 24 cents per kWh.
The real metric which should be considered is the actual GRID energy required to move that vehicle.
That's where hydrogen falls flat.
love watching that strawberry acai swishing around
Love the review it was fair and obi-as
Remembering to purge the water when it's operating in cold climates sounds like a problem to me. (Wisconsin residential thinking here)
I think it is the same even for Battery EV, which need some heat for the battery to run well., Now A day, Heat pump ( cold AC in reserve ) inside any EV is very efficient to keep things warm . but I am not sure about how fuel cell will run under the very cold weather thought ?? Anyone knows ??
@@JY-lg6ee My consern would be the water freezing in the water drain system and damaging it.
@@JY-lg6ee the fuelcell produces heat (80C) which is waste energy usable for heating without range reduction.
@@JimmyShimizu Thank You 😄
@@Glenn-the-Gray The car purges automatically when you turn it off. The purge button is just there so that you can pre-purge on the street in case you don’t want a puddle on your driveway or garage.
1. Agree to start doing a range test on FCEV's. Stellantis, Mercedes, BMW etc are coming with models later, so better be ahead of the curve with it.
2. Reason we neeed both FCEV's and BEV's for 100% decarbonized vehicle fleet regardless of size is we're moving to 100% Renewable Energy (RE). Its not more effective charging a BEV using a hydrogen generator than refuling a FCEV directly, so the optimal marketshare of BEV's and FCEV's depends on this factor alone. Some areas will support more BEV's because they got access to hydropower - like Norway. Other areas will depend more on other ways of storage, and hydrogen is becoming a cheap option for this with a ton of use cases for when its sold back into different demands. Feedstock within industry as a gas, backup power within hydrogen generators and turbines, and energy storage within transport.
The fuel cell can power the motor directly. It’s basically like a hybrid. Fuel cell can charge the battery or power the motor. The battery needs to be there to fill the gap in response time for the fuel cell to ramp output.
So… then it can’t power the motor directly..
Man that is a loooong hood. And there is very little storage space due to the 3 tanks that intrude into the passenger and cargo space. The weakness of hydrogen is it's volumetric energy density. The drivetrain takes up a lot of space.
One of many weaknesses...
This should have ideally been an SUV.
Great Review
I'd like to see you shred an i3... Preferably the 120ah i3s! Do those thermal-limit quickly?
3:32 - I agree that BEVs have limited usability if you don’t have routine access to AC slow-charging at home or at work. I’ll add, however, that that’s *even more essential for plug-in hybrids* .
On a full BEV, the battery is big enough that most people can charge once a week or every few days. With a PHEV, the battery is so small that you pretty much have to charger every day (or night).
That is, assuming that you stick with the goal to avoid burning gas in *any significant quantity* other than on road trips. Some people, especially in Europe, buy PHEVs with a goal more along the lines of driving it as a hybrid the majority of the time, with the occasional option to reduce gas usage, if the opportunity presents itself. That, or they buy them solely to reap the Government incentives!
Great video... certainly interesting tech.
The power loss was probably due to the small battery being low. The Hybrid cars do the same.. once they fall below some specific charge the gas engine is all that is really left.. probably same situation. Just with the Fuel cell being the power producer. I would think with a lithium pack and a much larger power generation capability the battery would recover much faster than in the Nickel Metal Hydride packs in most of the Toyota Hybrids.
A lot of times the derating is on the drive motor. If the motor starts to get hot under constant high torque uphill it will start to derate to protect the motor. The fuel cell is designed to run under high temperature. It was tested in extremes of heat and cold. They tested the heck out of it in Death Valley on the hottest days to see what it would do.
Bro you were down the street from me (Porsche Dealership0. Great to see my Home Town featured.
As someone who regularly drives a Mirai through Pasadena this felt so deja vu
Love your arguments , well thought through, if only Toyota had have thought it through better them selves
That's awesome 9.4 second to 60 mph.
Makes me feel good because my 2015 Nissan leaf does it in 9 😂. It was chipped in Japan by NISMO. I'm happy now.
The main problem with this car is the price; you can get a well-equipped Lexus ES250 AWD! The Lexus can easily drive for more than a decade trouble-free, and has outstanding resale value.
$60~80 to fill up the Mirai is not cheap either!
If I don't need the luxury badge and just want a comfortable "green sedan," I'd buy the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid Limited, which cost only $37k.
No one pays msrp for these. They often have 20k plus on the hood, 0% financing and 15k credit for hydrogen. If you have a station near your house these are a vwry good value.
@@cavemankiwi we have a station about 2 miles from my house where I get gas. The pump is always line up with people.
I paid $26K after all the tax, incentive and mfg discounts.. Before 15K cash worth of hydrogen...
It drive well (RWD with near perfect 50/50, borrow from LS500 lexus), Premium interior (you can slap and lexus badge on it)
The math is below:
there are 20K from toyota TFS, 4500 from state , 8K (federal, already expire though).
the H2 eq for mpg (at least what I use) is miles per kilogram. simply reset the trip meter everytime you fill and divide by kg dispensed.
I'm glad you're keeping an open mind Kyle. I'm pretty sure the US will have both hydrogen fuel cell AND direct battery EVs. pure battery EVs just won't work well for a certain faction of people -- be they apartment dwellers with ability to home charge or for those of us who DO go deep in to back country areas where battery charging is not very feasible either.
Let's look at "the apartment dwellers"?
Making a few assumptions?
They tend to live in cities/ suburbs?
As such, assuming they live there for a reason, they would tend to work in, or near that city, si would probably commute?
A high proportion would commute by ... Public transport?
That number will increase in future due to "outside pressures" restricting private transport? Maybe?
....
For those who do own vehicles....
Why would they own one?
What would the use case be?
Let's assume they use the car for "pleasure" rather than "business".
So, no commute, low(?) mileage, evenings and weekends?
Let's assume they use the car for the weekly shop.
15 minute drive, 1 hour in store?
That's enough for a full charge.
Add social activities.
If the car is parked during say 3 activities each week, for 2 hours each, we're already up to a potential (pun) 7 hours charging each week.
More than sufficient.
A 150 mile range will be sufficient.
.
Living in the suburbs, but working outside the city?
Then you're on the fast. Charge network!
If it's business mileage, the business pays and accounts for the charging.
They allow sufficient time, and/or the user works it into the business day, charging during lunch (McCharge coming to a spot near you!)
"No charge at home" is a non-issue.
When do you think you’ll get your hands on a 2022 with Toyota Teammate? Would be interested in your feedback on current consumer ready Teammate capability in the 2022 Mirai.
Fun video thank you. Tantilising that the camera angle will not quite allow the viewer to see your indicated speed.... I kept craning my head, like that was going to help!
I suspect the tanks are even stronger than that. I do safety engineering for aerospace products and all structure-related strengths have to have a safety margin of 1.5 times the rated strength, so rated at 80 would require actual burst strength of 120. And you really want that margin, against degradation over time, against surges, etc. so one never has to fear explosion, also to handle overstresses in a crash.
Eventually, one of these will be in a collision with a cement truck and a bridge support, it will probably be no worse than a gasoline fire, depends on how full the tank was when it ruptured, and how dispersed it is if it ignites.
19:57 Agree! Hydrogen will probably make sense for cargo hauling, mass transit, ships, etc. For private vehicles, battery electric makes much more sense, especially considering battery technology is quickly closing the gap regarding weight, range and fueling time.
I don't like the weight of BEVs or how much rare earth materials are needed for them. I'm undecided but interested in FCEVs. Clearly, BEVs are further along in terms of development and infrastructure. But it may not always be that way.
@@benjaminsmith2287 Battery technology is advancing rapidly. For example, the weight per kWh has been decreasing steadily for the past few years and many newer batteries are nickel and cobalt free. The main problem with hydrogen is that not only 95% of it is produced from fossil fuels, but its distribution has a large carbon footprint.
@@poxcr If batteries can advance, so can hydrogen. The carbon footprint is big in EVs also in terms of how the raw materials are produced and carried from one place to another. Hydrogen should not be shut down by EV advocates IMO. I'm not pro battery EVs, I'm pro whatever works EVs. I think of FCEVs as EVs and BEVs as EVs.
@@benjaminsmith2287 I’m sure hydrogen can advance, although I don’t think it will catch up or scale quickly enough. We’ve been hearing about green hydrogen for quite a while, yet it is far from being cost competitive. Producing hydrogen using electrolysis is an extremely inefficient process. Assuming a theoretically 100% efficient electrolyzer, it would take 40 kWh of energy and 9 liters of water to produce a single kilogram of hydrogen, not accounting for additional energy required for water deionization/purification, cooling and compression required to store it. While a single kg of hydrogen would allow the average fuel cell vehicle to drive just 100km, 40 kWh would allow the average battery electric vehicle to drive close to 250km.
@@poxcr They advantage to hydrogen, saying they can figure other or more efficient ways to extract it, is that the cars or vehicles are potentially a lot lighter and the range is theoretically better. The fuel up times will likely stay better as well. Yes, hydrogen isn't as far along but it took until just 10 -15 years ago for batteries to get out of their slow, heavy phase as well. I believe there should be research on it because I think 24/7 types of machinery will need something other than batteries to operate them. I'm not sure if fuel cells will be that widely used in cars but I can see it in trucks, heavy vehicles, perhaps ships in time.
the electricity must be able to bypass the battery and directly go to the motor. because with such a small battery, there is no way it can output than any kW to power the whole car.
the case is similar in most of the Honda IMM-D systems, since they all use relatively large electric motor (in the range of 100+ kW) and battery with small output (maybe 20 kW), all the rest of the electricity generated by the motor generator unit must go to the traction motor directly.
From a packaging standpoint alone, EVs are a huge advantage. Everyone likes lots of space and with an EV you get a deep trunk and usually a frunk. With a fuel cell car, neither. It's a fascinating technology, but the complexity is nuts.
Would like to know what the plan is for rolling out infrastructure for hydrogen. And would like to know how these work in the winter cold and summer heat etc. Will these work in these places with extreme temps? I know you mentioned what the manufacturer states, but I would like to see it really work in these cold climates. What sort of maintenance is required? Would like to see a lot more about this. How long will a hydrogen fuel cell last before needing to be serviced, rebuilt, replaced etc? Thanks for sharing.
Thank you so much! It's very interesting to me also.
I'm looking for owned a Hydrogen Cars.
In colder parts of canada every parking lot has got a power point which means can be charged at 110 to hold fort or top up some
Very nice. Please do get more information on Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle technology.
Hydrogen Fuel Cell is definitely the future for the Trucking and maybe even Shipping industry, its probably not the answer for personal vehicles.
Anyone else mesmerized by the Starbucks drink in the cup holder?
12:30 waste gate bypass work on the exhaust side, blow off valve venting works on the intake side
The slow acceleration up the long hill is the same thing PHEVs suffer from. Once the battery pack is depleted, you're stuck with a low-power fuel cell. Fuel cells always have poor power density, that's why they have batteries too.
Not sure what PHEV you may be referring to but most save a portion of the battery to continue driving as a hybrid, allowing it to continue to use the electric motors for extra power. The Volt was probably the best, being an electric car first with a single speed (no transmission unlike all other PHEVs).
@@therealcdnuser I have a Fusion energi. It'll pull a hill better than my old BMW 325i... IF I manage the 7.2 kWh pack well.
On a short climb (less than a mile) it does fine without any consideration. On a long climb (say 5 miles) it becomes important to use the battery strategically. This is why Motor Trend and Car & Driver both say my car is underpowered. If you use the battery strategically, it pulls hills like an entry-level beemer.
Like my Fusion, this Toyota fuel cell car makes 150-ish hp PLUS some battery power when you need more. When that battery power runs out, the car becomes a turd.
Definitely do a range test.
Nice driving skills.
You should check out the Hyundai Nexo!
You can compost any organic material into ammonia, then yield hydrogen using solar powered electrolysis. Thats how rural hydrogen stations will work. Farm 2 tank. Surprised it doesnt use a Super Capacitor bank to shock absorb high amp draws from stomping it. Should relieve the temp rise in the fuel cell by evening out spikes of demand, &/or increase lithium pack life from regen.
How would you get the Mirai to Colorado to test out? From what I have seen, California may be an option for purchasing a hydrogen powered car, but the rest of the country doesn't offer public stations to charge at. I would be interested in seeing how you would handle dumping the water when the temperatures are below freezing.
You didn't listen the university is putting in a hydrogen station and a car could be shipped like Carvana does
@@markfitzpatrick6692 Thanks. I missed that. Still, if the infrastructure isn't expanded, it seems like an option doomed to fail.
I read it’s far from pure water that comes out. Also, how often does the air filter need changing? Is it washable? Also how long does it take to defrost the system in winter? Why is the car so heavy?
I'm excited to see where light activated hydrogen storage goes.
i wish your videos came with time stamps it would be so easy to navigate from please try to do that thanks
Florida is now taking orders!
Soon in SoFla !
I'm curious about water emissions in colder climates. Is it enough to create ice on the road? You could see the issues with that if it's enough.
Is the incentive applied right away before financing ? Or it’s given after car is paid off?
The statement he made about one of its advantages is you don't have to pull around a heavy battery pack, followed by the car weighs more than a Tesla Model 3... 🤣
Hydrogen makes sense for heavy trucks .. farm and mechanical equipment .. but for regular cars ..well it’s possible
Why doesn't it make sense for cars?
@@helloguy8934 well cost vs benefit... at the moment it cost same as Gas .. also the hydrogen making process is not exactly green ( especially for blue hydrogen).. also hydrogen has to be transported at the moment with gas powered trucks to fuel stations .. stored with special precautions etc ... you can’t refuel the car at home unlike a BEV ...BEV’s much easier alternative at the moment for cars .. but like i said in the future it’s possible for cars too .. tech has to mature for mass adoption
@@Rx100Vx kk
Another consideration for EV vs HEV is the environmental impact of mining the exotic materials for a large battery vs the exotic metals in the fuel cell. I don't know what that difference is but it needs to be factored into the overall "footprint" of the two vehicle types.
The main sources of industrial grade hydrogen is the refining of fossil fuels, so BEVs are way ahead in terms of life cycle emissions
HEVs need a storage battery too!
@@hugowells3052 The main source of electricity is still burning coal and natural gas. Today and globally. So electricity is still a very dirty kind of energy.
Theoretically, a BEV could be dirtier regarding CO2 than a FCEV with grey hydrogen.
But with a rather "normal" electricity mix, the BEV will win this game.
And since electricity from coal and hydrogen from natural gas is no acceptable future option, this comparison doesn't make much sense anyway.
@@701983 That was debunked years ago. Many ev owners charge theirs off solar
@@hugowells3052 What was "debunked" years ago? The still mainly fossil fuel powered electricity production?
Not in my home country though (Austria), but globally?
Here’s the part that cracks me up about the FCEV and BEV argument. The BEV fan boys are now saying that hydrogen produces NOx, Carbon Monoxide and Methane which it does but the percentages are so small that it would take 100’s of years before it would even begin to have any effect in the least.
The part the BEV fan boys don’t want to discuss is heavy metals and the mining thereof, which is more environmentally destructive than coal so it’s only legal in China, Russia and North Korea. China is already the only country left and they are going to stop raping their own environment to supply arrogant Americans with their huge batteries for their EV’s and you don’t need a crystal ball to see that day coming.
I love my BEV’s but they’re not long term sustainable.
As many scientists and engineers are saying and have been for years “BEV’s are a stop gap on the way to hydrogen”.
Personally, I like hydrogen because every person can afford them where as BEV’s are insanely pricey. This particular FCEV is pricey but it built on an Lexus LS 500 which start at $85k and go as high as $121k, so $68k is dirt cheap for that car.
Ahhh the discussion improves as there is a fuel manufacturing issue that requires technical solutions. Perhaps the same could be said for electric batteries if tech replaces Li Co with another lighter more efficient mineral
25:55 - Exactly, fuel-cell EVs have a lot of potential for interstate tractor trailers, but pretty dubious for passenger vehicles.
The exception, which you alluded to, is people who have few or no options for overnight charging; fueling may make sense for them. However, Tesla, ChargePoint, EVgo, etc. can address that by forging partnerships with major apartment/condo makers in major metropolitan areas.
Here's a logic bomb.
.
Any issue that makes hydrogen dubious for small passenger vehicles is only multiplied for larger vehicles.
@@rogerstarkey5390, so the problem with batteries is weight-compounding. The problem with HFC is inefficiency.
For a small vehicle, weight-compounding is not a huge deal, but for a large vehicle, you need a big battery, then you need to add more batteries to carry those batteries, then more batteries to carry the batteries that carry the batteries!
With HFC, there’s almost no weight compounding, so it’s about equally inefficient, meaning very inefficient, for all sizes of vehicle.
Kyle - you ve got good content on your channel and it is very informative like your touch points on the different technologies. H2 is a waste product in many chemical processes and a desired waste product too as it is considered an environmentally friendly byproduct. This H2 is trucked and shipped to H2 fulling stations for trucking and private transportation to an energy-storing facility the pressurizing process is energy-consuming but still more efficient than conventional electricity production (kwh/$). It is not completely right to call it less environmentally friendly than a conventional EV (as sustainable energy has a very high kwh/$ price tag). Batteries are in themself not an environmentally friendly product and neither is the steel industry. It always is the question of where the products come from and in what condition they were gathered and manufactured. H2 production with electricity does not make the most sense (there I am with you) with the exception of using H2 as a cheap remote energy storage solution where the grid is not present or currently at a spike. Anyway, I hope you got my point. Keep it going, Kyle
I drive 1st Gen Mirai. I had Honda Clarity FCV before. I love FCV technology. I heard so much positive feedback about 2nd Gen Mirai. I wouldn't say I like FCV because more people drive FCV, but they haven't built enough new Hydrogen stations in LA for the last 5 years. Plus, Hydrogen runs out at the station pretty fast. Worst of all, the Hydrogen pump doesn't always supply car after car continually like a gas pump. It is frustrating and inconvenient. There are over 100 Hydrogen stations in Japan. They even deliver Hydrogen to you if you run out of it away from the station. I am not sure if I would sign up for another FCV again or not.
Pretty cool 😎!!
I think the way forward is hydrogen for tractor trailers and other commercial trucks, and electric for regular passenger vehicles.
@@mtb-go If you're referring to the Cobalt, hopefully that will be a thing of the past soon with the new chemistries. Over half of all Tesla vehicles now have Cobalt-free batteries
@@mtb-go They are also nickel-free.
I like the looks of it wish they were available in all states as well as fuel easily accessible. Probably need the government to back it like they did the electric cars. They also need hydrogen refilling at home if its possible and not available.
That $15,000 fuel card sounds great, until you realize charging an EV at home to cover the same distance will only cost $1,500 - and you don't need to leave your house, or neighborhood if you can't charge at home and use a public AC charger once a week.
That $1,500 cost sounds great until you realise the Tesla with comparible (but lower) range starts at over $100,000 compared to this that starts at $50,000. For the $50,000 you save on the cost of the car, you can fuel the mirai 700 times for a driving distance of 200-300 thousand miles. And pocket the $15,000 in free fuel and not have to pay thousands of dollars for electricity or charging fees to drive the same 200-300 thousand miles.
BTW, the comparable cost for energy would be the california average electric price given these prices are in california. California average electricity price is about 19 cents per kwh. Which means the equivalent electricity cost charging at home and not using chargers would be $3800, not $1500 assuming .24 kwh/mile.
I would be interested in a Mirai Prime, with a larger battery for around town activities, and hydrogen for longer trips.
The problem is, there are no hydrogen stations for longer trips. They've located the hydrogen stations for local travel only. They want you to keep using the local hydrogen stations to keep them in business, not do your local driving on much cheaper electricity. So, no, there never will be a "Mirai Prime".
The hydrogen proponents have got themselves into a trap - barely enough demand to keep local stations in business, and nowhere near enough vehicles to justify building out a long distance network of hydrogen stations. But the lack of long distance refueling forever limits hydrogen cars to "2nd car limited use" basis, which is an inherently small market. The whole hydrogen thing will be quietly shelved in a few years, and we can look forward to a "who killed they hydrogen car" movie.
Hydrogen is the true clean technology for automobiles. It doesn't use fossil fuels to charge batteries like EVs do. It actually cleans the air as you drive.
I was watching someone's videos on his Mirai, and while I get the appeal, he was driving 35mins each way to get fuel, sometimes at 2am. Kinda the same feeling I get about EV owners that have no charging at home, why? I don't see the point when the convenience factor isn't there, and sometimes makes your life harder.
I love EVs, owned one for 4.5 years, but my thoughts would change if I suddenly had to live somewhere with no charging. I'd end up just getting a hybrid.
In what situation would you have "no charging"?
Urban environment?
1) Would you (really) need a car?
2) If you did "need" one, would you be using it to shop? (1 hour charging)
How about socialising? (2 hours each location?)
I bet a mileage/ opportunity audit would reveal plenty of available charge.
Do you think the sluggish performance is due to exhausting the battery and the fuel stack can't deliver electricity fast enough to support the needed draw? This is fascinating.
I wd classify this tech as a hydrogen-electric in contrast to battery-electrics.
In winters climates will this car be making black ice on the roads when it dumps water and it’s 0F outside ?
question, what kind of lav mic are you using?
FYI - in response to your speculating about the possibility of other ( “fun” ) HFCVs.
A company called Hyperion Motors ( whose, primary, focus is the, mass, storage of energy ) will produce a limited amount of hyper cars ( approx 300 ) with four, NASA-derived, technologies (according to its CEO / Founder / Developer ).
Top Speed : 200+
To 60 : 2.2
Range : 1000 mi
Set Back : Not disclosed - but,
probably, staggering
I agree the auto enthusiast will love the Mirai........but? Let's all realize the hydrogen in air will detonate with sunlight alone. I've worked with hydrogen off and on since 1978 for fuel cell development. A slow leak in a garage reaching 15% by volume hydrogen would level the house after UV light from a fluorescent bulb or sunlight entering along the periphery of the garage door. I have witnessed dozens of small hydrogen detonations and during my career and I'd worked for a corporation where two process operators died when enclosures were not purged with nitrogen. I believe that is one use of hydrogen that has not been under the careful process of hazard analysis.
Toyota and BMW are working together on fuel cell technology. BMW is currently testing a iX5 hydrogen SAV.
BMW tests hydrogen fuel cells since the late 1980s.
Not the same thing. In 1979 the BMW 520h was a dual fuel ICE car runs either gasoline or hydrogen. Just like in the early 2000's with the BMW Hydrogen 7. Fuel cell today only generates electricity with drives electric motors. BMW is a pioneer in hydrogen but they have changed direction in with electric drive train instead of ICE.
He mentions that it takes about 5 minutes to fill up but when watching the other video where he fills only half a tank it already took almost 4 minutes from when the pump gauge numbers start moving to until the scene cuts away. This means, at least at that pump, it would likely take almost 8 minutes to fill from empty to full.
I have heard that you can say that H2 powered vehicle is from Electrolysis derived H2 is about 70% efficient, H2 from fossil none renewable's about 50% efficiency, in comparison to BEV which is likely around 90% efficient.
Only if you assume the BEV always charges when renewables are being produced. Thats not always the case.
There are an increasing number of bus companies that solve their ESG reporting by going into electric buses, but the problem with that is old depot's don't necessary lie in a good area in terms of access to high amounts of peak power. Some are already supplementing this with diesel generators, and hydrogen generators.
Charging a BEV through a generator is not more efficient than fueling a FCEV directly. So you kinda have to look at it like this:
BEV = More effective when we're talking about direct electrification. Charging from wind and/or solar production happening now.
FCEV = More effective when we're talking about indirect electrification. Refueling from wind and/or solar production happened days, weeks, months ago.
@@oophus1
Logic bomb
You can only "assume" they all charge from THE SAME grid mix.
You can't say "EV dirty energy but Hydrogen renewables"
You also can't say
"Hydrogen "Spare" (excess) energy" because with the investment in hydrogen infrastructure, you can just as easily spend the same money on battery storage.
And the percentage efficiency is WAY off.
EV 75-80% (min)
Hydrogen 25-30% (max)
The sums don't add up.
FC's are also easily 60% efficient now. Just look at Mirai and Nexo's ranges vs energy content. WLTP ranges with a FCEV is far easier to achieve than with BEV's. Its proven over and over again. During winter they get even more effective as the value of heat increases.
Hi. The comment about the source of electrical power generation applies equally to both hydrogen and EVs. The generation could be both from renewables or carbon sources. Don't see that it would make any difference. The cost and availability of hydrogen is the major stumblingly block. Thanks love your vids.
Could you test the BMW hydrogen 7?
Fuel cells were used during the NASA space missions to provide electrical power in the vacuum of space but on earth it might be best not to use fuel cells which will corrode in the atmosphere and wear out and expensive to replace just as for batteries in electric cars. Hydrogen combustion engines is the way to go I believe. They provide more torque for heavy utility vehicles like trucks and busses. They are also quicker to refill than battery charging. The only problem is storing hydrogen safely and in amounts useful for long distance travel of at least 300 miles between refuel.
Looking at total efficiency, hydrogen doesn’t make much sense. It’s better to use methane instead of hydrogen, and you get all the quick fuelling benefits of hydrogen. Plus you can make methane from co2 and water making it net 0 emissions if powered by renewables and methane has higher energy density.
Thanks, that's something I was baffeled when I saw a hydogen and e-fule production scematics the first time. All the conversion of chemical energie and also the conversion of pressures at the filling station is so wastefull to in the end power a electric motor.
Zero local emissions are important, ppl should not get sick and their live shortend, b
But you could use renewable energie, generate methan with it, burn that methan in a gas powerplant, send it over the grid, charge your BEV and still be efficent than a hydrogen car....
Hydrogen powered vehicles are the future, with electric cars simply being the interim step - that I am sure of.
Hopefully, a short interim step! EV cars are going to be a major disaster.
@@193322009 One of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard. It’s already apparent that is not true
I think Hydrogen is great for Freight Truck, City Bus, trains and airplane (if possible) due to low fueling time. Toyota does some in Japan and China, but would love to see and experience in USA. People then may change perspective of hydrogen.
Let's say a "Freight truck" can operate for as long as it's drivers permitted shift time, then while the driver takes a mandatory break, that truck can "fuel" to do it again.
"Low fuelling time" is no longer a problem?
That's already possible.
Without any fuel subsidy from Toyota, seems this would be more expensive to fuel up than an ICE car?
I have studied Hydrogen for years. It would not be that hard to move Hydrogen all over the place fairly easily.
The issue with high elevation is easily adapted if you want to. Bringing in more air flow can easily make up for high elevation by the computer.
I used to tow over 10,000 lbs from the Midwest out to the mountains fairly regularly in the 80's to the early 2000's. I had Chevy's in the past with multiparty injection. I would pull over on the Eastern side of Cheyenne and unhook my truck battery and eat a sandwich and use the bathroom. I would hook the battery back up and within a couple miles the trucks would relearn how to run in higher elevation. All of my power and fuel milage would come back.
With turbo Diesel trucks they just used more fuel and smoked a little more in higher elevation.
"Not hard to move"
But NECESSARY to move.
It's all infrastructure (tankers) which "cables" make redundant.
@@rogerstarkey5390 Currently pipelines underground move Ammonia all over under people's feet and they don't know they are there. Ammonia can move a lot Hydrogen in it to industrial converters or simply generate it on-site with water and Electrolysis using any form of Electricity at the point of distribution.
There are all kinds of logistics that are easier to solve with Hydrogen and in some instances you can recycle the water over and over like is done in steam power plants.
It could be used to store energy without massive battery banks in remote areas and could be used as emergency potable water supplies in drought stricken areas. You could have Solid Hydrogen stored anywhere and convert into energy and potable water in the middle of the desert.
It would be interesting to know if you can still run off the battery when you're out of hydrogen and if so, what is the range...roughly.
It doesn’t.
@@excusemehello5904 Thanks!
Yes, I understand that the hydrogen generation is currently not ideal, but we all will have to perfect that for hopefully fusion generators anyway. So it is just a matter of time before we make clean hydrogen as an energy source. Yes, I know that fusion requires deuterium and tritium, but it is a same process as getting regular hydrogen at the beginning.
Hydrogen is not an energy source.
It takes 3 times more energy to create the hydrogen than you get back
@@booobtooober Try saying that to NASA for using hydrogen in rockets, stupid!
@Yuri-chan yup, ask NASA yourself. Hydrogen does not exist in its natural state anywhere on earth. It has to be manufactured, primarily from reforming natural gas, or you can make green H2 by electrolysis from water. To make green H2 requires 3 times more electricity than charging a battery for an equivalent range and vehicle
Much better than 1200 lbs of battery. 4 to 5 minute fill up. By the way more power is comming. Drive a v8 LS, it handles very well and you wouldn't be worried about any Honda! Wouldn't come close.