Selmer Supreme, Reference 54 & Series III Comparison!
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- čas přidán 29. 09. 2021
- It's time to say farewell to the Reference 54 & Series III altos to make way for the amazing new Supreme. In this video, Jim plays the new Selmer up against the old models to see how they compare.
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Three iconic saxophones. It seems to me that Supreme sounds more homogeneous and more in tune. But the 54 has more heat and greater sound projection. Excellent video. Thanks for posting.
The reference 54 sounded gutsy and had more character than the other two.
I feel the same as you. I also feel that the Reference has a good rich and warm sound.
Another fantastic review. I listened to each horn independently, pausing the video after each model section several times. I'm using a good headphone set as well. To my ear the Reference did it for me, while each model has its own personally. I feel the Reference just jumps off the screen with its dynamic range and overall great sound, not lacking in any area. The Reference has the Selmer sound as they say.
Jim, you always make such a great video. Love listening to you play. I have the same take away as you do in comparing these 3 saxes. The Supreme should do just fine and a nice medium but the punch of the Reference is noticeable, and I liked that one the best.
great review. love my Ref54 alto, looking forward to trying a Supreme alto at some point.
Great video, and really helpful. I've played a bunch of different horns over the years, including a black Serie 3 and a Mk6 . These 3 alto's are interesting variations on the vaunted 'Selmer Sound', which, wether you like it or not, is definitely a thing! Of course sound is subjective and subject to bias, but there are some interesting things that are objectively different here. Here's what I heard:
Serie 3 - Direct and clear tone. Has the crispest articulation and almost sounds like studio compression is present in terms of it's eveness of volume and brightness throughout the range. It's tonal purity and responsiveness make it a go-to classical horn, but I'm sure I've been one of many players to use it's bigger/brighter sound for Jazz/Pop etc. Most easily compares with Japanese horns like Yamaha/Yani.
Reference - The thickest, 'grittiest', and most explicitly Jazz focussed sound here. Reminds me of playing modern bigger bore/american style horns (Mauiat's, TJ RAW, etc) in terms of the bigger and more textured sound. Sounds potentially a little louder than the others, possibly at the expense of subtlety. Reminds us that in Saxophones, as in all things, every bit of design is a series of comprimises designed to meet a specific goal.
Supreme - Mk6 reborn/refined. It sounds like it is resisting a little more when you play, which softens its attack slightly, and gives more 'core' focus. If you like it, you can't live without it! Maybe sacrifices a little punch and range of frequencies to make a prettier sound. Seems like you were enjoying playing it, I heard some brighter Maceo 'pocketed' tones there, which I enjoyed! There's definitely something about this one....
it's interesting that the production/supply demands have Selmer to discontinue the other saxes. It's a shame, but maybe now they will only be available used they will get the 'Classic' stsus they may well deserve. If you could still buy new Super Balanced Actions, would we still hold them as dear, I wonder?!
As you have shown, the differences are subtle (they all sound like Selmers!) but definitely notable. Here's hoping the Supreme can be all things to all players who want new horns. For the rest of us, will this mean used references or s3's get cheaper, or are we going to see the Mk6/BA/10m situation all over again?!
Thanks for the video, great work for such in depth and honest appraisals of sound/tone, a difficult area to analyse when confronted with differences in personal biases, etc. That's why we love playing sax right, it has so many different voices in there?! Keep it up and thanks again.
I play on Series 3 soprano, alto and tenor. They’re super saxophones and I’ve no problems playing jazz and classical on them with ease on the concept mouthpieces - play effortlessly. The Reference definitely had the brighter tone of the than the others, but not massively! Would love to come and try the Supreme though! Been much good feedback on it and it says something when orders are backed up two years!
It will be fascinating to see what happens with the prices on used series 3 and 54s.
Same here. I bought my Reference 54 just before the price skyrocketed, due to the fluctuation of the Euro to the Yen (Yes, I bought it in Japan.). I have a hunch that the Series III and the 54 will go up again in value.
I bought my selmer reference 36 for 6K in 2006. I think they’re selling for around 8K now :( and I need another one
I totally agree with your description of the differences between the 3 horns.
Always great videos. To me you looked very comfortable on the Supreme. It certainly has a rich tone. Personally I like to hear a bit of character in a horn as it becomes part of the story you get as a listener. Most great recordings have imperfections that just add something.
That 54 has the projection i love and that gritty tone.
Nice job Jim. I'm sad to see the end of the series 3. I'm not a Selmer lover but the series 3 is the only one I've tried that nearly pulled me away from my Yamaha's - mainly, I suspect, because it's the one with the most Yamaha like sound. Will definitely try the Supreme next time I'm in but hearing you play it I think it has a lot of exactly what I don't like about 'that Selmer sound' ; a big, cloying slab of mid range. Each to their own of course and I must concede that it's a good looking horn.
Nicely done video. I bought my series two alto in 1992. All of the altos students purchased after I started teaching seem to have a better horn than me. I had to wait a month I couldn’t imagine waiting two years. The most important thing for Selmer is to distinguish their saxophones from all of the Japanese and Taiwanese and Chinese saxophones. The Yanagisawa alto I had was nowhere near the quality of the Selmer then. But now there are more major players of the game. I own a Yamaha 62 tenor and bari and Yanagisawa Elimona soprano. I would love to shop around but can’t justify spending the money when I already own $15,000 worth of saxophones when they were purchased new.
Nicely presented by Jim the Supreme is the middling blank canvas shape as you will sound imo.
Seems like the Supreme is a little smoother between the registers, especially in the palm key area and above. I agree with your conclusion on the "in between" aspect - the Reference 54 sounds a little darker and more resistant, whereas the Series III sounded a bit freer and edgier, with the Supreme having a bit of both free edgy and dark fullness. Good review. I almost kinda wish I could afford a Supreme, it would make a nice companion to my SBA :)
I guess I’ll be sure to sit on my Reference. I still love my horn and so does my oldest daughter, who is starting on sax. She was playing on my Reference for a short time before my wife and I got her her own horn - the YAS -28. I told her that the Yamaha will carry for for many years while she can discover her sax on her own terms while developing her own voice with her horn. She still loves her sax.
The reference 54 sounded the best for me! I know it's not a very good comparison but, 54 vs supreme sounded like Yamaha YAS 25 VS 32. Where 25 has a powerful sound and 32 has a warm sound. If I've had to make a top 3, it would be like this :
1.Reference 54
2.Supreme
3. Serie 3
I’ve played on a Series III for the past twenty years and got a Ref 54 not long before Selmer surprised the world with the Supreme. I have colleagues and teachers who are advertising it as amazing… Wish my timing would have been better! Maybe when the backlog settles down in a couple years, I’ll be ready to splurge again!
This is great! I’d like to see you making a review of Jay’s better sax (or even a comparison with other same level models)😁😁😁
This might well be coming - watch this space....
Jim, just watched this and while I have yet to play the Supreme, I thought it interesting that you said classical players like the III- which is NOT at all the case in Japan or the USA. In Japan, the Series II has and still is the choice of classical players. Of course now I hear they are moving into the Supreme camp. Like you, I am sad to see the Reference 54 go. To me, this was the best Selmer I have gotten my hands on, bar none, and I have played a boatload of Selmers. I would be interested in a Ref 54 alto used should you have some that are in the 66x,xxx serial range. I hope to see you and the crew again in the future...it was always nice visiting your stores! Regards,
Randall (formerly in Japan)
I've personally never been a big fan of the Reference tone; I feel like it just sounds too thick. I've always felt the Series III was the livelier horn, and so that's what I play. That said, if the goal was to put the Reference tone on an evenly tuned horn with the Supreme, I feel like they've succeeded. The Supreme sounds much closer to the Reference than the Series III.
Exactly my thoughts.
I'll take two!
Excellent review as usual. They all sound great, perhaps slightly different from horn to horn. I think I can hear differences because I am paying extra attention to it; an audience won’t be able to tell a difference. In the end, the Supreme is the best to my ears, but it isn’t a landslide. Each horn probably has an ideal mouthpiece to go with it to make them sing at full capacity. Still, it’s pretty difficult to justify the prices they are charging for any of those horns brand new. Personally, I don’t think they outplay Yamahas, but to each their own.
Didn't you forget to mention that the Series II is still in production? It outlived the Series III, not to mention the Reference models. I have played every Selmer you can imagine, and still the Series II is IMO the very best ever made. Give the II its merit.
Hear, hear.
Fair point Jose. I was concentrating on the two horns that had been discontinued, but as you say the Series II continues and is still exceptional.
I agree totally with you!! The Series II is the best.
The Series Ii is the sleeper. I have two Bari’s. One is a vi, the other a Series ii. The ii is a better overall horn. It’s just very heavy.
I love the Selmer and Yamaha saxophones in their black lacquer.
somewhat insane to stop producing the reference. I own this horn, loved it from the very beginning and it's still from my point of view my number one choice for alto.
It’s actually better than a VI IMHO
Your videos help people) That's happiness. It is very interesting to see the video about YANAGISAWA TWO37 - Tenor saxophone - Solid silver. The price is high, and it is very interesting to know its advantages in comparison. Maybe for someone it's a dream and he hasn't been able to try such a saxophone yet. Have a great day) Thanks for your videos)
nice sound!
I still like my Ref 54 very much. I have more reason to use it now, since my oldest daughter loves the sax. I got her a YAS-28 and she loves it. Selmer never fails with fine craftsmanship.
As a 59 year old mostly Tenor/Bari player. I was never impressed with the Series III or the II. The only Alto I ever liked from Selmer besides the VI was the Ref 54. I do think the Supreme does bridge the gap from the III to the Ref 54. But I'd still take the Ref 54.
Great piece...ref 54 for me
all that horns are amazing horns! Ref 54 looks like for me one step above than others...
Excellent review as allways...But I still think that each instrument make a "team" with a mouthpiece, is not easy to test all the saxophones with the same setup....
Agreed Martin. I did start doing some commentary on the merits of different set-ups combined with the different horns but we decided to edit this out in order to keep the video length down!
Adding to David Burgess’s comment, I would love to hear you play a ripping mouthpiece like the Sanborn signature mouthpiece and test the claims that the Supreme crosses all genres.
Sounds like a video for another dayJim. I'd be curious to see how it supports that kind of mouthpiece too.
Will there be a follow up for this video but for the tenors by any chance?
I’m SupremeLY fortunate to have bought a Supreme this week! Am in love, it’s a magical instrument. To marry a superb Selmer tone (yes, lots of Mark6 core in the sound) with great flexibility and superb intonation is a dream come true. It’s pretty much perfection for most styles, although it’s a touch quieter than my previous SA80, especially on the bottom end. The gains are easily worth the slight loss in power.
I see what you did there 😉
I personally can’t really tell the difference in any of the three other than the names Series lll, Reference & Supreme. They all sound alike without a huge noticeable difference. I have a Selmer Series lll Model 64 Tenor & it hasn’t any problems fitting in the jazz world.
Brilliant vid! One suggestion would be to be sure you eyeball your placing horns in stands. Just to reassure the viewer and put at ease. Small thing...
Love the Supreme. But my preference is for a dark tone.
I've played a Series III alto for quite a few years and I sadly have to admit, I hated it towards the end. It has so many issues that you come across when you play it longer. I'm really glad it is gone now. It held me back. Just my opinion, though. I know others enjoy them
I feel the same about the Series III, hated that horn, and I was a classical player, mind you.
Does Selmer Paris plan to come out with Supreme tenors and sopranos?
I don't know but I think the reference projected better, had a brightness and clarity that I personally love with my horns.
So they discontinued the series 3 but the earlier series 2 is still in production?
i just like the engraving on them. thas it.
I want that black saxophone. The blaxophone.
The sIII is discontinued on altosax. Selmer Paris will have three alto models in production now. The Supreme, The Super Action 80 Series II (SA80II) and the Axos. On S, T and B the SIII is still in production.
how does the intonation feel on the supreme, I heard the Ref 54 have a issue on the higher range being very sharp.
It has to be said, the intonation on the Supreme is the best out of the three. The 54 has a few areas that need some work - in the same way that most good vintage horns do. If you have the ear and technique you can make these horns play in tune, given time. But the Supreme just locks in straight away, which makes the whole experience immediately gratifying.
amazing how much we care about the minor details in our hole ridden cones
Very similar I think. No one would be compromised playing anyone of these horns.
Anyone knows if the tenor series iii and 54 will be discontinued as well? It seems still no news for a tenor supreme?
There is a very small difference in the sound among the three horns. I liked the Reference 54 the best. The Reference had more presence. Do you believe that horns "break in" and sound better after they have been played for some hours? I remember when I first played my Yamaha 875 it seems a little "tight" as if it was restricted from vibrating at first. After about 6 months of playing it seemed to "open up" for me. What are your thoughts on this?
Good question James. I think there is definitely something in this. I've had a Yani A901 for about 15 or 16 years now, and its devastatingly easy to play in comparison to any new horn I pick up. I largely put this down to the fact that the keywork is so light and fuild, having had several tweaks by technicians over the years to get it as light as possible. But beyond this I believe the keywork has also 'played in' and feels perfectly gauged to my finger pressure. As for the sound, it also feels like it has 'opened-up' over the years (your phrase, and mine too). With all of these Selmers that I tried, I would personally have the action lightened on any of them, and I'm sure that the sound would be bed-in further given hours of play.
I guess the "break in" happened on the pads and the springs. As pads absorbed moisture and pressures, the shapes will conform the sound holes firmly and better.
Is the Series I finished as well?
All sound great, you play them all well and show the differences. Different players will get different results I would imagine. Love the Ref. sound and the Supreme is close second for me. Series 3 is good but I personally like the thicker sound and maybe more character of the other two better. It's all personal. Sounds like you could put more air through the Ref. than the others maybe?
I love my Mark VIs, although the Reference 54 definitely has a memorable sound. I’d like to see how they appreciate in the future.
I believe the Selmer Supreme is the successor to the Series III and that jazz cats would still favor the Ref 54 and or other brands altogether.
Series 3: 6:07
Reference: 6:46
Supreme: 7:33
I'll have to listen to more players, but I preferred the sound of the III and 54 over the Supreme. I don't know what it feels like behind the horn, but both the III and 54 have a bigger sound.
The Supreme is supreme !
Tre suoni praticamente uguali !!
I'm slightly disappointed, I was expecting to like the Supreme out of the three, but I preferred the Reference 54. However, it's all relative. I expect that a change of reed and mouthpiece would bring out the extra guts & brightness from the Supreme.
Saxophones mellow with age. Supreme hasn't got the chance yet, but then you'd have to wait a couple of years to find that out if the Supreme surpases what Selmer have now.
How much does it cost the tenor saxophone
The supreme seems to be the darkest/warmest just behind the Reference?
I thought there were aspects of the Supreme that sounded flat. I don't think it is a good move to dump the other two horns. Overall, I like the series III the most. I have a series II that I just love.
Series 3!
I didn't know that the series III was used that much by classical players? Thought it was the series II
It is. He said himself he's not a classical player. In my experience as one, classical players play a series II 9 times out of 10
If they use a selmer
@@mitchbeck17 eh, it’s 50/50 at best between the 2 and 3 with the Classical camp. A lot of the Selmer artists in the US and France switched to the series 3 when it was released (especially on soprano). Granted, like the video points out, a lot of these same players are now on the Supreme.
The reference alto is the supreme classical alto saxophone from Selmer. It has a darkness sound that is very rich and deep. The supreme sounds very thin almost like a Taiwanese horn. It doesn’t have the character and it doesn’t have the rich Selmer sound at all in my opinion.
A little bit out of tune (to high) by the high tones of the Reference, but great sound.
Supreme is more tuned and focused.
SIII is in the mid, good tuned and focused and good sound but less than the pressence of R54
All the 3 sounds great.. i think i prefer the Supreme.
But, by far, my favorite horn ever is the SA80 SII blackedition.. the tenor is realy a dream!
👌🏼😎
How much cost replace her ultra saxophone 54 number Alto saxophone okay reply please sir
Reference 54
Well, on my laptop speakers they all sound the same. I would have to play them in person to make a decision.
Series 3 is the winner by far!!!
what did you mean when you say "classic"....it's beb-bop classic or bach's music perhaps??
Bach's music.. the best.
Supreme has shorter intonation period than any previous Selmer saxophone. It comes with treats and caveats. It's great for classical genre that wants instant + uniform tone. But for (traditional) jazz, even rock, it may be a problem. E.g. in the demo, Jim's licks sounded like jazz on the Ref54, but sounded more like funk on the Supreme. Sometimes slower intonation & its breathy underlay are necessary.
I think the word you're looking for is 'response' rather than intonation, and yes I agree with you. After 6 months of owning a Supreme I've decided it's magnificent for classical and funk/pop, but only average for jazz. For all of my jazz/blues playing I turn to my (almost vintage these days!) SA80, which is a much better horn for jazz, with its much slower response, darkness and less refined complexity of tone.
@@lukeserrano62 then, the SA80 is the very best because it's the favorite of classic players too..
@@HonestSaxSound-unEdited- yes, it can definitely do it all very well! Very versatile instrument. That's why I've kept it for almost 30 years. The only thing that can be a struggle with the SA80 is achieving extreme lightness and transparency of tone (which the Supreme excels in), and it's a bit noisy, mechanism-wise (Supreme is very quiet). But this is something that really only affects the most delicate of classical playing imo. And for pop I prefer a clean, brighter sound, so again the Supreme wins out for me in this genre. But the SA80 can still do it, and with extra grunt.
Supreme was the cleanest sound!
They’re all great horns. You just need to learn to play them! God bless. B. Uk 🎷🎷🎷
Tried supreme and awo10, awo10 won.😊
Don’t much care for the Series iii.. The supreme and ref. are pretty close... That said...I’ll hold on to my my mk VI that I’ve had since High School... Don’t think could justify the price of the Supreme anyways..
Can u get a decent beginner sax for under 1000 USD yamaha Yas 62 is 2000 usd wich to me is too much for a beginner
YAS62 is not a beginner's sax, and features such as extended guard on the bottom pads of the YAS280 is useful whilst still learning to wrangle a sax, Any improvement in tone/playability/tuning just lost on most learners anyway. As a learner you can't go into a shop and gauge the difference between models anyway (I tried) and at the point you can, THEN buy the pro-model and don't assume the Yamaha is going to suit you best. The only thing about buying the pro model at the start is that you can't (usually) blame the sax for any lack of talent or ability. Learner models easy to sell on - there's always a good market for the named-models.
I read u should spend under 1000 for first one & some China sales play very good for price Bettersax review Amoon alto & said for 270 its good for money. I was considering the Schiller brand
What about the tenors?
I should've clarified this in the video. Nothing is discontinued in tenor. But the same pattern will eventually follow - Supreme will come out, then the others will go. This could take a year or two (or more!)
I expected more from Selmer.
Selmer Paris continues the tradition of canceling a great model for no good reason. They should’ve kept the Ref 54 alongside the Supreme and discontinued the others. I like the Supreme but my Ref 54 is basically a Mark VI that plays in tune.
Reference to me sounded best
jazz players are disappointed because they just wanted the new mark vi
JUST one more thing.. Quite honestly..I can’t really tell the difference (with eyes closed) and would clearly prefer a “Vintage” Selmer. Just Say’n 🤷♂️
I have a 48 year old Selmer MkVI tenor. I am the original owner. Sentiment will never allow me to sell my VI. I played a 54 when they were first introduced and had an immediate WOW! reaction. Recently, with all of the new saxes being manufactured to very good quality standards, I started shopping for a new horn. Mainly due to the constant upkeep and maintenance required for a vintage sax. (I also have a 1933 Cigar Cutter alto). The improvements in ergonomics and mechanical engineering of today’s horns are far superior to the great vintage saxes from 50 plus years ago. Unless a person has an unlimited budget, it just seems a better financial choice to be able to purchase for example, a new Mauriat System 76 alto AND tenor for the price of one quality vintage MkVI tenor. This coming from a person who would have the Selmer logo tattooed on my arm. If I wore tattoos.
@@donl3248 Got to agree with you there. I've had a 1957 MK6 alto for 45 years (plays ok, but really needs new pads etc), and like you, I could never't part with it. However, I can barely reach the pinky Bb key and other aspects of the layout are a bit iffy (for me), so I wish I could afford a Ref 54 or Supreme without selling the Mk6.
At age 17 In 1968, I had a new MK6 tenor which I used & heavily abused (didn't really know stuff then), and 15 years later when it was in dire need of a service & repair, I part ex'd it for a Mk7 which I actually looked after very well. Then about 18 years ago, I tried a Reference 36 tenor and again, just like you, WOW. For me, it was the perfect instrument (tried loads of other saxes: Yanagisawa, Yamaha, etc). I was earning enough to be able to buy the Reference 36 and I can't conceive of needing any other tenor. WANTING more saxes is a different thing entirely 🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🤓
I agree with you 110. I parted with a 5 series MK6 years ago, and if I could I’d show you the gunshot wound to my foot 🦶 🤦♂️ Seriously stupid mistake. But then I also parted (to close escrow) with a ‘69 GTO. I’m guessing a stamp of “stupid” must be on my forehead 🤦♂️
@@pmd467 ok. I can forgive the Mk VI. There are plenty for sale these days. The ‘69 GTO… I’m speechless and can’t catch my breath at the moment. I’ll get back to you when I can get up off the floor. 😭
reference 54 sounded best
Supreme is darker, less projection, it seems "boxy"..if you search the real alto sound( lead alto, pop, funk and be bop) ref 54 is better...even the serie 3 is "more alto" than supreme..my 2 cents
My ranking from best to last:
1. Supreme
2. Reference 54
3. Series III
They all sounded great, but I was gravitating towards the sound of the Supreme and how it sounded on my measly headphones. If I listened to them live or I actually played them, my opinion would probably be different.
With the ,, eye closed" and letting the ears judge, for me, all sound the same. I don't encourage to buy expensive saxes for nothig, especially if your not a professional. For me, the sax ( or clarinet, who is a clarinet player will understeand) and all gear should be the perfect price and quality ratio!
Character development with not playing classical :0
I liked the "Reference". I wouldn't buy "Supreme" it's not an interesting sound, flat, I don't understand it.
Series iii player is so upset
The Supreme sounds like a rather dull, slightly boring but excellent horn.
You need to stop saying unnecessary things. Don't even tell what you are going to talk...Just say it. Make short and to the point.
Three equally bad sounding and out of tune horns. Goodbye and good riddance. Not even the character of a Pan American.