"Detraining Effect" For Runners?! How long of a break? Training Talk Tuesday with Coach Sage Canaday
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- čas přidán 22. 06. 2021
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I've been tapering for the last two years. My master plan is in motion
You have been lowering your mileage for 730 days? Dude, you must've been a monster!
My last name is Higgins! Cheers!
Great coaching line regarding sprinters: "I can make you faster but I can't make you fast."
Duuuuuuude, everybody here is talking about two week breaks or two month breaks, I finally got back into it six months ago after two years and I'm actually getting it back WAY faster than I thought. Never give up, if you start now you'll be glad later.
Also, no, I want active at all those two years.
I used to take the winter off. It had a horrible effect and I would basically start completely over every time.
So personally, I do not recommend taking ANY time off.
Interesting, I'm also running almost 6 months after two years off (got burned out and dealing with depression) and it's been hard man. I've never run so slowly in my life before (11 min/mile now while my previous average running pace was around 8 to 9 min/mile), and it's coming back sooo slowly. Interestingly, my aerobic system seems to handle it fine (watch says I'm often in recovery heart rate zone) but my legs get extremely fatigued.
When I started running, I could easily run 6+ miles and was up to 13+ miles after a few months of running. Now, I'm pooped after 6 miles, which is my 'long' run currently. My legs just give out after a while. I never would've thought getting back into running would be this hard, and it makes me regretful I've stopped running this long. I always thought I was 'gifted' with natural endurance, but now I see that's definitely not the case!
@@watermeloenislekker Similar case here, I'm a student who's put off running since like my 12th got over. I used to run regularly then with proper plans and maybe even do a long run of about 5-10 km at the very least once a week and without any doubt I could always complete it.
Since then Covid happened, I've reduced my training a lot sometimes for a whole month and I've just started getting back to it and I've found out that the ease with which i could run 3, 5, 10 + km back then just isn't there now. Back then I used to care about hitting times, now I can't even finish it. 😭😭
I can run fast right now but only up till something like the 2 km and after that things just get so much harder. I guess I must try build up a better base first before increasing volume. But yeah I feel the same feeling of regret you do about stopping running as now even I find that it's suddenly become a lot harder. :(
@@wiyzer in high school, I wrestled in the winter (because there is no indoor track in my state) and ran at most 15 miles a week. When track season came around in the spring, I definitely felt like I lost my cross country fitness
@@wiyzer Agreed! I'm a beginner, but taking time off is not the point of the hobby. It's a lifetime commitment to lead a healthy lifestyle. One thing I would consider though as an older runner is to do 8 day weeks and also do 2 blocks and then a rest week instead of 3-4 blocks and then a rest week. My body can't take yet 3:1, although I have been able to complete them, but after that the rest week is always truly trying to recover from borderline injuries.
This is literally exactly what I needed to hear today, I haven't been running very much lately because of a foot injury and now I'm running 10 miles a week down from 50 :/
Question: What is the best way to include mountain running/vertical gain into an existing training plan as a beginner or slow runner? Is it acceptable to lower the distance for runs in the mountains, in order for the time spent running to be more similar to what would be the case on the flat? When it comes to easy runs, is it more important to keep the heart rate in the easy range, which for me means walking on the uphill parts, or to keep running? If walking sections, should one compensate by running for a longer distance?
I have no choice but to run hills for all my runs. As a beginner I focus on heart rate training (mostly slow running). After a few months and after adding some strength training I start doing hills sprints once a week while all my other runs stay in zone 2
I took a 2 month break in running this year, due to life getting busy, and getting back into it I found I was able to base build a lot faster than my initial base building phase, within 4 weeks I was running comparable weekly mileage to what previously took 5 months to build. However, I definitely saw the effect on my speedwork. I haven't built in much speed yet to avoid injury, but on 20 minute tempo runs I am finding that I am feeling the same effort ~30s/km (~50s/mi) slower than I was back when I was in the middle of training.
That's what he said: you first lose top-end performance, the ability to clear lactic acid effectively
Thanks a lot Sage, you packed so much information into such a concise and lucid talk. Absolute gem, as usual! Rooting for your speedy recovery!
Awesome video. So many variables, so many differences between individuals its such a hard question to answer 👌🏻👏👏👏. Glad to see you are recovering well
Perfect timing for this video seeing as I just got an injury and have been super weary of taking time off
I appreciate this, and perfect timing. I've been taking it easy for 10 days after a marathon and just started easing back into running. I can tell a difference, but the short rest had more benefits than cons.
I was watching some of your old videos from like 6 years and still super helpful, I’ve learned so much and have applied to my triathlon training. Also I just got accepted to Cornell and know you went there so go bears!!
Great video👍 Glad to see you’re on the mend Sage. Ive just taken a week off for a reset. Over 2 month ago I had my AZ jab and still suffering from feeling thirsty/dehydrated and somehow struggling with my longer runs (almost like the jab took away my endurance) 🤷♂️
Very good video; all valid and accurate points!
It's like you read my mind sage! Just started a break after the leadville marathon
Great video. Very relevant to me as I'm currently recovering from a minor surgical procedure so I haven't run for almost a week now.
Great thoughts Sage! Thanks!
Great vlog Sage, great timing as far as i'm concerned!
appreciate the wisdom Sage
Awesome talk. Would love for you to talk with someone who has an everyday 8-5 job, kids and how they organise their day and effective training when time is VERY restricted. I think a lot of viewers would get benefit out of it.
Cheers for the good work and hope the recovery is going well
Great video. I sprained my ankle 2 weeks ago today. Before the sprain I was in the form of my life I was going through HM in training runs and Getting PBs. I’ve done 2 bike rides since and I’m hoping I can now do easy runs on it from tonight. Praying I haven’t lost to much fitness as I want to get back racing.
Excellent talk Sage. Fascinating subject, given the fact that we often have to put our time and effort into other things, often skipping running for more than 2 weeks. For me the thing is the cramping and stiffness you get when you stop, not talking about DOMs, but its as if the body can’t do what its been accustomed to do and it’s now not happy. I think our bodies love being bashed up, which is kind of weird. Anyway, took a week off after my covid jab. Time to get back out there.
thanx coach.. 7th day on quarantine now.. 7 days left before i can hit the road again..
Another great piece of information ..
Very informative. Good stuff. You my friend now have a new subscriber.
I have been injured for 5 month's in 2019 but i got back to my lvl and even better after 3 month's i was followed by a great physiotherapist. I also beat all my P.B that year never thaught i was able to recover that fast
After swimming for a year a couple days a week (years)...I felt like I had found a new pair of lungs...it helped with my breathing pattern while trail running.
Had mild achilles tendonitis. Took 2 wks off and my legs lacked the endurance as before (long runs of >14 miles had to be dialed back). I was however, pleased to hear your advice on making sure you are well healed before resuming training. Thanks
Oh, man. This was well-timed for me.
thanks for this video sage. I've currently got covid so hoping my fitness doesn't get too wrecked
Interesting talk and timely for me, I've been unable to train for a week due to a bad cold. Will see if this ends up helping me or not :)
excellent video. As a cyclist I can confirm that the same applies to us, with 2weeks being a sort of threshold beyong which adaptations start to fizzle out in a noticeable way. Most of the times, a 3 to 5 days break results in a minimal loss of endurance but in a massive bounce in anaerobic performance and it indeed acts somehow like a (bad) taper
I think you answered that question perfectly !!
This is really interesting for me to listen to as I've been having niggles over the last 2 months and I have had to take 2 separate breaks of about 4 or 5 days and one break of a week as I kept coming back probably a few days too soon, or possibly pushed too hard too soon and had to keep dialling back.
I haven't run more than 4 days in any given week during this period, the runs I have been doing have either been speed sessions or medium long runs, easy runs or tempo, progression runs and here and there some runs with technical terrain and plenty of elevation, but haven't managed more than a 26km run. Yet oddly enough during this time my speed during the interval sessions has increased and I'm suddenly getting a load of strava segment PB's.
I think my endurance levels have dropped though and I'll soon find out doing the Lakeland 5 Paases this weekend (51km + 2.5k climb).
Maybe taking a few short breaks and interlacing them with just enough runs or activity to maintain overall fitness may induce benefits, just so long as we can crank it back up again ???
I've also been doing a LOT of long walks, with time on my feet into 4, 5, 6 hours (been spectating and filming utras ...see my channel) so maybe time on feet is as important ??
It's a never ending learning curve and I think that's what I love about this sport, seems that it's an ever changing landscape.
Peeping the cute lung plushy in the back! Glad you’re on the mend Sage!
It looks like a pair of lungs
Choice video Sage, one subject I want to bring up is, if you are training really hard for one, two three years isn’t it wise to cut your volume & running milage back on the fourth year, two rest the body from super hard intense strain on the body
Thank you for the advice. Question for next time:
wow do you recognize over training? And what do you do when you're over trained? Cut down milage drastically? Do something else? etc.
haven't run for almost 2 wks now because of toothache 🦷
got my tooth extracted yesterday, excited to get back on track next wk
Thanks Sage, for mid pack ultras - imo at least enough to maintain muscle tension if the hay is in the barn. that is what i am hoping anyway with 10 days to go
This was a really interesting talk! Maybe when I'm older I'll run some ultras as well, the lower intensity and focus on perseverance more than top end speed seems really appealing to me! As of right now (I'm 22) I'll focus on the Half Marathon and below though, I hope to crack 1:20 in the fall this year (just ran 1:29 yesterday but I had to latch onto slower people a lot because I didn't wanna run all of it by myself and many guys slowed down towards the end, which slowed my pace a bit, but placement was great).
Just coming back from four weeks of almost no training (just a lot of walking, but no running/strength training) due to at the time unexplained heart issues that needed to be examined first - I can now train normally again in terms of heart function, but I am far from where I was before the break. However, I think I was already on the verge of overtraining before, and my performance has not decreased as drastically as I expected. Can't say how much exactly it affected me, but I feel like a few weeks of gradually getting back into my old training schedule will get me to where I was before.
How to taper/recover for a race in the middle of your Higher Running training plan? For example: B Race (50 mile or 50k) when your A race (100k) is two months later. Avg 75-80 Miles per week.
Thanks a lot for those insights, Sage.
What is your view on fasted/carb depleted training? Why, when and how can it be beneficial for longer distance runners? Or does it not matter, or should we instead always carb up before even the easier sessions?
Doing the higherrunning half marathon plan at the moment with lots of sessions in the morning, but so far I always eat something before I head out. Wondering if it could help if I wouldn't...
Detraining is super common in the more explosive sports. You have a heavy lifting/plyometric period and then a mandatory rest period (1/4 or 1/8 the training time) and you will see significant gains that you won't if you keep the training up.
Taking a break after putting in some 40+ miles a week/ cycling non stop Anton Krupicka style for a whole year. My mind broke, and my body did too. Became hard to get out and run without headphones on. Became hard to get outside and run period. Taking a long break (about a month in now and I don't care) to hike the trails for a change and smell the roses. Also, it helps to have friends to push you to run outside, which I don't have and good on you if you do.
Tore 3 ligaments in my ankle on trail after a fall...... Week 5 this week and probably have another 2-3 weeks minimum infront of me before i hit the trails again. I feel cardiovascular fitness is there or there abouts however, ive lost complete confidence in my physical ability. Working hard on reconnecting neromuscular connection
Been slacking hard past 3 weeks. cross country pre practice starts In a few weeks need to get back into tommorow
As a kid I used to cycle 200miles a week, posted a 27:22 10mile trial (on a road bike, not a TT bike), won a club hill climb and a couple of track sprints. Then I got old and a touch tubby (11st 5'6"). at 44yo I did the couch to 5k, it took me 8months to go from couch to 24min 5k. I'm guessing all those miles as a kid had some effect.
I'm a recreational trail runner who's had a lot of injuries. I can sustain 3 months off and then pop back into it. But longer than 3 months and its starting over from square one.
haven't run cross country since 20 years ago, safe to say that I am very de-trained no matter how much i convince myself i'm not
Hi Sage, good topic and sharing. Unfortunately for me no choice due to fresh lockdown and all forms of outdoor activities are banned
Whenever I take more than a couple weeks off I feel like I have to start all over. My first 3 or 4 runs after a break all show up as vo2 max 😂
Useful video. Just fractured my foot when running, so will be out for at least 6 weeks. I was hoping to get a half-marathon PB in about 10 weeks, so wondering how much gains I will loose
Exactly the video i needed right now , thank you Sage! I am currently on my 14th day off running , due to a stupid calf pain that doesnt seem to go away easily. I am running 10k and above with some ultras. A question : does cycling every day stops that loss of fitness? I was at my peak before my injury (and actually preparing for a 100k race, which... i missed) , so i am very concerned about what will i find out when i get back to running (the pain is slowly going away, so i hope i will be able to run in maybe a week). Thanks! And great to see you back running, stay healthy and strong!
I'm a hobby runner, started being active just near 40. I had pretty much 2 years off more or less (bit of running, bit of biking) due to knee and ankle pains. I finally lost all the excess weight and I'm still like 30 seconds slower on the km than I used to be and can do less distance. I lost a TON. Could be down to the individual. I am running since about January, started very slowly with walk breaks and all, up to about 30-50 km per week (at 50 I got knee pain again so taking it a bit easier). I still feel I'm another half year away from having a decent base close to what I used to have when I had 70-100km weeks and was doing a 25+ km each weekend. So yeah I lost a lot and I think I need to work about a year to get back there just with the endurance.
Really great talk here Sage - I am pretty concerned right now specifically with this so it was pretty timely - I have been dealing with a partial tear in my hamstring that has been driving me nuts - it has led to a few months of down time at this point not a full but has decreased mileage by around 2/3s A follow up to this would be in this de-training how long should I expect to get back to better fitness running again now feels like I am starting from scratch and its very frustrating
Bone broth is always great for recovery.
I took a break of 2 weeks and some extra days (mind you I did absolutely NOTHING but chill, play games, watch netflix, and ate Ben & Jerrys haha!). I don't have a superb background in terms of sport, so that would be my "natural state" I'd say. My fitness loss was hugeeeee, however my strenght was still there. I was in the best form of my life before the break and when I came back it looked like I was 6 months back in terms of fitness (you know, HR creeping up on hills and so on). After 5 weeks, it stills feels I had better fitness before the break, but getting there slowly and surely - just trusting the process.
So yeah, I learned the lesson, no longer hard breaks with no excercise at all. I will de-load and cut down mileage and intensity, but that's it.
Damn dude. Can't imagine taking even a week off exercise completely. Would make me go insane mentally. Were you just burnt out?
Sage, any distance any surface. I'd love to see you do a 100m, 200m, 400m, and 800m time trial. Maybe join an open 800m or race in a Nick Symmonds race 😂 hope you are doing well, man. You seem better now after the hospital. 👍👍
I agree that genetics plays a huge role. For example, I am lucky to hardly lose any fitness with detraining. Unfortunately also I don't gain any fitness however hard I train.
Hi Sage, really enjoying the Tuesday Training Talks! I was wondering if you could have a talk on: Whether mileage per week trumps time on legs when training for ultra distances races (mountain or road) - there are times where I can’t get to a mountain to train and find that my mileage will increase from the prior week but, the total running time for the week is less as my road runs are quicker than trails. Your thoughts?
I knew this mostly because I can feel it but it is very disappointing to hear this and put it in my head again😂😂
I've spent the last year in a constant cycle of re-building for a couple months, then something happens at work and I tumble back down for a couple months. It's comes back relatively quickly, but I know overall my ceiling is gradually getting lower over time. It's just not enough consistency for me to get anywhere, and ultimately I've lost a ton of fitness from where I was a couple years ago pre-pandemic, including what I lost during lockdown. Feelsbadman.
I made 3 weeks break from running, did cycling because of injury.
My fitness went 10-15% down.
Threshold run feel like sprinting.
Went literally 2 months in reverse
Would welcome your thoughts on the best approach to tapering for 1/2 and full marathons amd ultras. When to start and how to train in the 1 or 2 weeks prior to a race. How do you gauge too much or too little? Assume reasonable level with good level of training. Cheers
Great insight! Jusy had to rest for 5 days, after my second covid vaccin.
Having competed at both ends of running... I'd suggest as sprinting is about maximum muscular power and range of motion- it is by definition an extreme endeavour- albeit for a v-short time duration. Not running in this fashion for some time will make any re-introduction quite severe and potentially injury inducing. Any time off sprinting requires a measured re-introduction with strides to fast strides etc. Endurance running is not muscular dominant - more fitness based. Any extended time off will result in a loss of fitness- but I believe the re-introduction is a bit less complex. You can run at the same pace- just for not as far/long... there may also be some slight muscle soreness in the legs- but nothing too extreme.
Milers are a whole different ball game... There's a mental familiarisation required to run at a good mile pace, which takes time and frankly balls.... Milers are tough beasts... Super fast and fit...
Sprinters- come back slowly, endurance guys- just add the distance/time as you see fit- milers- good luck lol...
Have you made a video on periodization yet?
2 weeks off due to minor injury (put a foot on a hole walking) but after a shy attempt of 3 weeks alternating days had to take another 2 weeks more off, my aerobic engine was gone, and as you said I gained some weight, actually a lot of weight. currently, I'm on the last week of your aerobic engine free program (thanks a lot), still I'm not at my best but it helped a lot, I guess coz of the weight but I'll get there. so I have 2 questions, what would you recommend to do once I finish the program with a marathon in mind by mid-November? nutrition book or something to help me lose weight and have more energy, I run early in the mornings and I'm done for the rest of the day, have done some research but I guess that I can not make it without a proper meals plan. not good enough for a video I guess, maybe the nutrition part for long-distance runners? thanks
What is the most efficient way to breathe? I've tried searching it up but i've gotten every answer from nose in nose out, nose in mouth out, mouth in mouth out or certain breathing patterns. What way do you use and how would you recommend practicing it?
Hi Sage, is it possible to substitute an "easy pace run" in a training plan by a longer road bike ride every once in a while? Maybe every other week. For example exchange one hour of easy running against two hours of road bike? This could be helpful to prevent injury. Thx!
TTT Question: can you ever do your easy day too slow?
No
I recognize this is the standard response, but I know that back in Sage’s Hanson days they generally did easy days at a steady pace, so I’d just be interested if he think there are any exceptions to this general rule
@@jonathanjames7181 I’d like to know too. Based on my experience I don’t really think so. But everyone is different. (I’m an 800m runner - so definitely out of the ball park compared to what Sage does)
If it’s an easy day I’m going by heart rate and not how slow I’m going. For me easy is around 140bpm and I’ll run as slow as I can to stay in that zone. If I had a really tough workout the day before (aching and all) and tried to stay at a certain/slow pace my heart rate would probably sky rocket and I wouldn’t get much out of the easy day.
Edit: that pace can be as slow as a 10min/mi pace or 7:30min/mi. Just depends on how I feel and how my heart rate is.
Don’t be afraid to walk!
Of course. Let's say your "easy" HR is 140 at 9:30 pace. If you're running 13:00 at 110 bpm, it's too slow.
Should I be going by heart rate as it gets hot out where I am at because I feel that I can breath and talk fine at a way higher heart rate then normal?
Interesting. I’m 68 and had two back-to-back injuries (not during a run) in January and February. After 12 weeks off, I feel like I’m a beginning runner. I’ve only been running for six years, But I’ve always been somewhat fit and have weight trained for many years. It really sucks.
Interesting. I have noticed that it feels like a significant drop off after 2 weeks. I come back slow and feel out of shape. But it usually comes back pretty quickly.
TTT Question: How do you work in mid-cycle races? I'm training for an ultra in November, but I want to do at least 1 maybe 2 shorter races in the meantime. How can I work in tapering/recovery for the shorter races, without hurting my long-term training cycle, and is there a benefit or detriment to doing so? Thanks!
Broke my collarbone and have been out for 2 months so far. Lost 8 pounds since i stopped working out and have been sitting in bed a ton. Been stretching and keeping in the sun a lot. Hoping i come back ten times strongeer
You can work out your legs. Good luck. I just broke my foot last week. I'm hoping core work and back strength might help a little, since I can't run, squat etc
Question: if I train for a long endurance bike event, how does that translate into running fitness? I would like to do an ultra cycling race and a ultra trail next year
I believe The Running Channel did a Bike v Run challenge recently. The ex-pro cyclist struggled to hold 5min/km for 5km on a treadmill.
How much rest should somebody get after a season? I hear a lot of runners take one to Two weeks off after a season and begin maybe base training for track after cross country.
I wish I'd watched this the day after I finished my first half marathon in Philly 10 days ago! I was planning on taking 2-3 weeks totally off before the new year when I was going to start a new race-training cycle for 2022 (e.g., Philly Love Run at the end of March 2022), so that I could heal a mild case of plantar fasciitis and start the year mentally fresh. Based on what you're saying here though, I might be better off running lightly a few days/week in an "extended taper" for next month. Am I inferring correctly? Love your videos Sage & Sandi! I wouldn't have been able to run my half marathon without all your training talks! -Matt
Make sure to work out what your cause is with the plantar pain. I recovered from it with heavy slow calf raises and daily calf stretches on a slant board. Took couple of months, I think I got it from not stretching my posterior chain, doing a kettlebell workout 2-3 times per week, and also having weak calves. It was my worst PF case ever, barely could walk during the nights. If the kids woke up, I had to almost crawl to their room 🤣
@@liljemark1 Thanks! Helpful. Made me laugh about the kids.
I had covid and return to track after 3 weeks and losing almost 4kg. After a week I did stride and i felt like i forgot how to run.
After a week i run my 100m pb but my 60m is a bit slower because i lost power, cant run a 200m good since it feels like a middle distance race.
I can bounce and i havent lost any elasticity quickness and stuff. Endurance and speed endurance completely gone. Thing is i was training for something else not pure speed.
My times are all over the place, it feels weird
Sage, what would you recommend to runners who can do half-marathons at 7 min/mile, but who struggle to do marathon at 7’40”/mile pace? Is it a matter of simply doing higher weekly mileage (e.g., increasing from 55 to 75/week)??
Can you talk about EPOC next time?
sup coach.
Did you run pro??? Seems like it your really experienced with all this
I’m an above average long distance runner and got injured two months ago and had to take a month off from running. I was able to maintain some fitness by cycling. I’ve been building back up my running mileage over the past month and am now back to 70+ miles/week but am about a minute/mile slower than I was before the injury. I’m guessing it’s probably going to take me three months of training to regain what I lost in one month of detraining.
Hi Jonathan, I'm really curious what happened; did you really need 3 months to build it back up or like a month and a half? And what distances do you run? Thanks! I'm injured for a month now too, so really curious
My achilles tendon is my weakness and injury prone, can i get your advice on strengthening it?
Google “eccentric heel drops”. Hurts like heck (it’s supposed to), but gives you a permanent fix in three months. Like magic.
Digression of the topic; Mo Farah changing from mid to long distance. I don’t think he gave himself the time to change. It surely takes years to gain elite ability in Marathon running. Now in doing so, how much has/could he have lost in the peak performance of his previous distance. In chopping back to his preferred distance, as he has not got the time or patients for the change to happen towards Marathon distance, has now de trained at that level. The question would be. How long would it take to find that level of performance or could he ever find it again being older and that his body was adapting to the changes made? I’d personally would have thought, he’d be better to continue his training towards a marathon elite runner now he has made the change!
Im running my 10 k in 43 to 42 mins. I run below 4 mins per km. It feels like im sprinting. Does not look like you sprint to do a 3:03km run help me out.
Sage, I am slow slow runner. My fastest half marathon is a 2:21 and my mile PR is a 7:24 I have a 50k under my belt but am looking at doing my "first" marathon race in december. My long long term goal is to make it to the olympic trials in 2028. I think I can do it. Im 22 right now and I will be 29 by the time the trials roll around. Do you have any advice for me? I know I have a long way to go but Im ready for the challenge
Or if anyone else has advice please leave it here
Join a running club. You don't have to be good to join a club, just keen, the club will get you consistant (if you listen) and consistant will get you faster.
Ice Cream is good for bones right?!?!?😎
Your view on genetics seem to exclude epigenetics.
As soon as you stop with intensity you lose 5% of vo2max.