No Gi Jiu Jitsu: where does it really come from?!?!
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2023
- This video discusses the various origins of no gi grappling and its relationship with the Gi.
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Hi Chadi! Great content! Just an insight about the subject. Brazilian Portuguese has no equivalente word for "Wrestling", so, historically and culturally general people uses the word "luta" or the expression "luta livre" (that could be translated as "free fight", with the word "free" having a connotation of "freestyle", as in Freestyle wrestling) for anything resembling wrestling. Probably related to similar expression in Spanish "lucha libre" , as used in Mexico, for example. ALMOST in parallel to the development BJJ, a certain type of Brazilian no-gi wrestling (now called Luta Livre Esportiva) was being developed propelled by the popular and cultural challenges of vale tudo (anything goes matches). It seems the American catch wresting made its journey to Brazil by a Brazilian, Manoel Rufino, who lived in USA for a while and started to teach in Brazil in early 1930´s. He taught Euclydes Hatem, known as Master Tatu, who passed it down to the Brunocilla´s (father and son), who trained a number of no-gi submission grapplers that were involved in many challenges against the Gracies. Many judokas joined their group, especially students from the first generation of Japanese Judokas living in Brazil (such as Geo Omori, Takeo Yano, the brothers Yasuichi and Naoichi Ono among others), and also many many free style fighters such as capoeiristas, boxers and other fighters who usually had a history of rivalry with the Gracies used to seek for these no-gi groups.
Actually, all Gi first generation "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu" can be traced back to Kodokan Judokas. Gracies and Faddas can be traced back to Mitsuo Maeda and basically all the others BJJ branches can be traced back to the others aforementioned judokas. The BJJ no-Gi practices is heavily linked to the challenges against the no-Gi submission grapplers of Luta Livre, who can also be tracked back to judokas and also catch wrestlers.
Look up Maeda he wore his kimono because he was a judo Ju-Jitsu stylist and did catch wrestling Carnival wrestling all over the world to make money to support himself. It was until the 1930s when catch wrestling transitioned into professional wrestling for entertainment where all these guys had a gimmick and a finishing hold to attract more people in the audience to make more money
“When you train Gi jujitsu, you are actually practicing no-gi, but with a gi on” Eddie Brabo ;)
In my dojo we teach no-gi Judo with emphasis in newaza every Wednesday. We do it more as a form of self defence because on the street you don't have a gi to hold to. We are surrounded by over 30+ BJJ schools including three 10th planet BJJ schools and we are the only Judo school in town in a city of 955,000. Very hard to compete with all these schools we barely make enough to keep the lights on and pay the dojos rent. I was in a tournament two weeks ago and I heard the same story from other Sensei's. It's like Judo is being "swallowed" by BJJ as one of the sensei told me. This is the case here in Florida I have students from other parts of the world that visit us all the time and they tell me this is not the case in their countries. But they also tell me they have seen BJJ clubs open in their cities slowly. Only time will tell...
Perhaps compete in actual Judo??
he means compete in a business sense. @@pieterduits4638
I feel like judo's emphasis on Olympics has had a terrible effect on it in the states. As in many judo schools can't, wont or don't adapt to the changing "grappling culture" at large and get left out.
I offer Nogi judo classes as well. Throws /takedowns are essential for self-defense. Judo is more popular worldwide, yet in America it is dwindling. We have to do our part and continue to spread it.
@@bentinho Good point
Something I've noticed is most folk wrestling from around the world use a jacket or at least belt, because people use to wear more clothes with belts before the modern era. But this doesn't mean they didn't know how or trained to do it with a jacket-less or belt-less person. Just more focus I can understand.
With Gi, the techniques and skills are important. But if you roll against someone who has fairly good grappling skills but is also very strong, all the years with Gi don't matter. Without Gi, everything changes. Strength and muscle make a huge difference. There are wrestlers who won early ADCC competitions. Just look at today's no-gi, the pros there train like bodybuilders with wrestling endurance. Regardless of all the techniques you know and all the medals from gi competitions, it won't matter. Strength, athleticism and endurance are decisive. Especially among the heavier weight classes.
No, skill is skill, either with the gi or without, Nogi or wrestling is just as technical and in my experience you’re worse off agains a stronger opponent with the gi, if they grab you they can use all of their strength. The grip or hand-fighting is different and one must become accustomed to the specificities of jacketed va naked wrestling
imho no-gi in greco-roman style is way more difficult and technical then gi. if people rely on strenght and endurance so much in no-gi, there is one main reason for it. they lack skill and technique. if you have skill and technique, you can beat stronger opponent, it is essence of martial arts...
No wrestlers won the early adcc,they medalled but didnt win,even those wrestlers had judo or some also,they understood submission.Every fundamental skill in gi translates to no gi with minor adaptations even straight wrestling is very technically dependant. Furthermore, no pro grappler trains like bodybuilder,they lift for strength and grappling drills build specific endurance.
Wrestling. I think it really is the wrestling culture in the United States that pushed the nogi game and forced its evolution.
I would agree. It’s a big factor. I think Chadi underestimated the impact of wrestling in the video. MMA as well but to a lower degree, as Nogi-grappling carries over more into MMA than the Gi-counterpart.
@@sunte91 He is not underestimating anything. In his mind because he can find some drawings, footage etc automatically everything came from Judo. Absolute nonsense. Its has nonsensical as him having issues with the buggy choke where some people broke their legs. Yet you can find videos of people breaking their legs attempting triangle chokes as well. It's funny most BJJ folks especially No Gi don't give a damn about Judo. Folkstyle, Freestyle, Catch, Greco wrestling etc are what they are studying.
@@naakaalastudio6655you're spamming anti judo propoganda everywhere . I know u a wrestling fanboi but calm down . Wrestling will always be inferior to judo as an art because of not having submissions. Pure wrestling is not on the same level of judo. Stop being a cringe wrestling cult follower and analyse objectively. I guess you're of 14 or 16 years of age who practices wrestling. You'll grow out of this emotional attachment with wrestling someday if you get yourself a girl.i hope the best for you
That’s because Bjj nerds will let their acl pop in a heel hook before admitting Judo claps them easily on a regular basis, they will glaze wrestling like it’s some invincible omega superpower & say judo is just okay when all of the Bjj greats have been mauled by mid level Judokas. BJJ literally has a negative record vs Judo even with their shitty double legs. D1 wrestlers who actually have good takedowns struggle with Judokas, so it’s just close minded glazing since their community is butthurt about being walking fleshlights. They will do everything but learn judo to improve because of their pride
Oh & also ignore other highly effective grappling arts with less bad habits than western wrestling like Shui Jiao, Scottish backhold, Indian/Iranian style, Georgian style really I could go on forever.
Chadi I enjoyed your video lecture on no gi Judo. Your explanation of its development and evolution spot on. I truly appreciate the effort, and the historical research that went into video lecture. Kudos Sir and God bless you and your family!
I was practicing no gi Judo 30 years ago in the frozen North...
Its just common sense to do some training without the jacket.
Luta levre is the reason BJJ guys started cross training without a gi, it was a product of wrestling.
Luta Livre guys were no match for gi grapplers. Less techncal, and weaker heart.
So sumo was a ritual for the Gods for good harvest. Punching is against the rules. Wearing the mawashi was a way to show they had no weapons. This is also the reason they show their wrist and turn them over before the beginning of the match to show they are not holding any weapons. This obviously would demonstrate the mentality of that era. Martial relates to war. So a lot of people talk about modern juijitsu(brazilian) and other fighting arts(kick boxing, wrestling) as if this is what was done back in the war ages of Japan but it was not. Obviously people didn't sit on a battle field and exchange kicks, punches back and forth or grapple on the ground to submit people. Yes there was grappling techniques but as a last resort. Those arts took weapons into account and the last place you would want to be is on the ground. The goal of any martial art during that era was to kill with a single blow by stricking vital areas. That may involve weapons or not. These guys knew what they were doing.
The YMCA clubs used to teach catch-as-catch-can to some Brazilians; in early 20th century.
All cultures have a variation of lapel vs anatomical grappling
By the way, from the 1:49, there is a video footage of the best Czech sumo wrestler, Pavel Bojar, who wrestled under the name Takanoyama Shuntarō. He was in Japan in one of the prestigious stables for 13 years and, as a sumo wrestler from Europe, he had arguably the greatest success so far. Moreover, before his career in sumo, he was a top-notch judoka. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takanoyama_Shuntar%C5%8D
No way. Just of the top of my mind, Baruto (Ozeki?) was way more succesfull than Shuntaro. He was just too small to compete in the upper salaried levels.
He was strong despite his size
Modern day grappling continues to evolve more and more into having a larger amateur wrestling and even catch wrestling look. Secondly, the whole modern guard game has evolved much more in the US. Ten years from now, most of the best No gi grapplers will have very strong wrestling foundations.
To think all the centuries that jiujitsu was developing, that nobody thought to apply those techniques without a jacket or armor is hilarious.
It definitely happened, though I think that its important to keep in mind that the gi is just a reinforced kimono that doesn’t rip too easily. So in the past it would be like training with your shirt on vs training naked like the sumo.
@@thescholar-general5975 agreed
Why? People don't walk around in singlets, or shirtless.
@@itheuserfirst3186 If you do hard labor or training in hot weather, people are going to take their shirt off to cool down. This also keeps your shirt from getting ripped. Taking your shirt off at work is not allowed as much in some places nowadays, but sometimes you can still see construction workers who have their shirts un buttoned for extra ventilation.
We have paintings of crowds in ancient china and you can see that some people are walking around in the crowd shirtless presumably for these reasons. Additionally, things like Sumo, greek wrestling, early pugilism, and even ancient Egyptian martial arts had shirtless fighters in their associated depictions.
In other words, shirtless fighting happened, whether or not is was commonplace or the main training method across history is another question.
Kimonos were street clothing back in the day.
Why does wrestlers compete without clothes? Because it makes it difficult to catch a hold. Then add some oil to your body and you'll get an extra advantage on top of being naked...
No Gi Jiu Jitsu: Where does it really come from?!?! Simple, it is wrestling. lol If Billy Robinson were alive today he would say the same thing.
French “Greco Roman” style didn’t exist till like 2 centuries ago & has very little historical crossing with Bjj but keep glazing, you probably never wrestled or done Bjj a single day in your life
No, it's not. You know little of both.
It has zero to do with wrestling ,it was simply just basic judo the gracies learned with a heavy newaza emphasis.Later,it added techs from luta livre and sambo leg locks and evolved through competition.
El kuzushi como lo conocemos hoy en Judo, para realizar las técnicas, era muy diferente en JuJutsu dado que para desequilibrar a un oponente se usaban kyushos, presionando en puntos vitales precisos y asi no era muy necesario tanta fuerza usada ... Hoy en el Judo y otras Artes de Lucha, es necesario realizar mucha fuerza para lograr la sumisión. No estoy diciendo con ésto que antes no se usaba fuerza en algunas técnicas , sobre todo en las de proyecciones, pero si había muchas en que no era necesario como se usa actualmente.
Por lo tanto antes no era necesario la Ropa como se ve actualmente , había mucho NoGi y también KumiUchi.
Máximo Arias
6°Dan JiuJitsu
Campeón Sudamericano de Jiujitsu 2007
SubCampeón Panamericano de JiuJitsu 2010
Sensei Bujinkan.
Kuzushi as we know it today in Judo, to perform the techniques, was very different in JuJutsu since to unbalance an opponent kyushos were used, pressing on precise vital points and so so much force used was not very necessary... Today in Judo and other Fighting Arts, it is necessary to exert a lot of force to achieve submission. I am not saying with this that before, force was not used in some techniques, especially in projections, but there were many in which it was not necessary as it is currently used.
Therefore, before Clothes were not necessary as we see today, there was a lot of NoGi and also KumiUchi
Maximo Arias
6th Dan JiuJitsu
Sensei Bujinkan.
South American Jiujitsu Fighting Champion 2007
Pan American JiuJitsu Fighting RunnerUp Champion 2010
Most of us just took off the Uwagi to try to train more realistically. Simple as that, Gi is very technical and as important as No-Gi
This is so 80s-licious. I love it.
Catchwrestling
I always get heat for this but I consider nogi jiujitsu and BJJ to be different disciplines
The same way that judo is done with a gi, so it bjj. They're inseperable and when you remove the garment youre doing something else
It's not though. The anchor points are the same. The techinques of both tend to dominate in both. People want this to be a thing for marketing purposes. Welcome to the sad world of Martial Arts advertising.
i`m from japan .that is interesting. england was first nation to receive jujitus.some of japanese jujuttsuka were invited to england.and they fought catch wrestlers in eraly 20 centuly.tani yukio was invited too.
yukio tani who learned tenjin youshiryu jujutsu.he moved to england in 1898.he fotght in many contests.he wore gi in mutch.
but i think no gi jujutsu techic strated in this period.
@@JohnDhar
i know what santel defeated japanese judoka.
but yukio tani was only one loss.
it was not true that jujutsuka went to england for learn catch wrestling .
@@JohnDhar
you are taking about professional wresting history .i konw what how grew up japanese professtional wrestling.and the roots of sinnihon pro wesling were wigan .karl gotch was invited to sinnihon pro wesling as a coach.all pro wresling fans know what karl gotch was inoki`s sensei.but those history is professional wresling history.
@@JohnDhar Miyake and Itoh were 25 lbs. smaller than Santel and he still lost to Itoh in the rematch and ofc there is no info on the weight of the two he beat in Japan and the guy he drew with. Funnily enough two of his wins were slam tkos, not the kind of thing you'd ever find a modern nogi setting. He even had to avenge the loss of one catch guy he brought with him for losing to another judoka. Santel even embellished his time there by magnifying "his feats in Japan, claiming that he had faced and beaten the top judoka of the Kodakan" He also later drew with Tsutao Higami and Setsuzo Ota in 1925 and 1926. The wiki just states that "many Japanese traveled to Europe" source from random sites or sherdog. There's no other info on these supposed waves of people going to England, not very reliable.
I do think that weight is more of an advantage than Jackets esp when it comes to takedowns, but yes I would agree Chadi does have a bit of a bias. That said when it comes specifically to BJJ, I would certainly argue that Judo Newaza is the main influence esp from the Kosen schools as they emphasized the ground aspect (Guard work and passing). That said I don't have anything against Catch and my main sport growing up was Folk style wrestling which I know is rooted in Catch. And it has certainly influenced grappling as a whole as it was originally more internationally practiced. Heel hooks are a good example of its influence.@@JohnDhar
Interesting points and great video. Isn't sumo a descendant of an extinct type of Chinese wrestling (not speaking of shuai jiao)? Anyway, I would say the influences on modern no gi culture has happened in waves...of course you have the luta libre in Brazil but, at least here in the States, BJJ was never taught without the gi in those early years. I live in Iowa and I remember when BJJ first started getting established here, it was very much its own thing and stayed insular until more wrestlers started getting into it through early MMA. They joined because they needed to learn submissions. They could dominate otherwise but couldn't finish or made mistakes that got them caught.
Out of that, no gi submission grappling started popping up and those same wrestlers (now with ranks in BJJ) started teaching like a hybrid BJJ from a more wrestling oriented angle (ie, less emphasis on the guard, aggressive attack style, etc) on the side. Sometime after that point Catch started to resurge and has crept in over the past decade as a counter to BJJ that I think aligns more with what wrestlers are comfortable with. Mind you where I live it's an hour or so drive from where Farmer Burns lived/is from and I've never seen a Catch school, class or even a workshop in this area...you'd learn more catch joining a local Pro Wrestling group here than a wrestling club. So its been interesting seeing it sort of "reappear".
Catch wrestling never caught on. Stop.
No it isnt
@@itheuserfirst3186 elaborate?
@@sambolife2764 what isnt?
Its not a descendant of extinct chinese wrestling@@bentinho
Seems Eddie Bravo and his 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu should also credited for later development of No Gi Jiu-Jitsu trend.
Why? What have they done? Rubberguard is a failed gimmick.
1:11
This looks like Yagyu Shingan Ryu. Where did you find this clip?
Where do I get those tshirts?
Where can you get those T Shirts from?
simonbjj.com/shop
No Gi probbaly goes back to the 1800's
Gladiator days
Il jujitsu è puramente giapponese
Eh? Obviously it came out of the vale tudo side of BJJ, and the connection of that with luta livre.
i can watch takanoyama videos all day long 🙂
1st match, how much $$$ do you think it cost to fix that?
you speak Portuguese very well
I wish I could find No Gi Judo near me :c
no gi came from a guy who forget his gi at home
Luta Livre and Folk Wrestling
The recent popularity of nogi is 100% from mma/vale tudo, specifically carlson gracie. The helio gracie side used to fight in gi's (ufc 1-4) so it was carlson and subsequently BTT who developed it. After 1993 the Americans who learned from gracie torence (chris brennen, marc laimon) also fought mma so trained nogi.
NAGA popularized nogi grappling in north America, wrestlers who learned BJJ.
Its an interesting video, and nogi (wrestling) has existed for 1000's of years, so i am talking about the recent nogi explosion.
No gi is a lot more fun and quick paced. I didnt realise sumo required so much skill
Catch wrestling
It's cause rash guards look cool.
Greek Olympics, say two thousand five hundred years ago. Earlier.
No tenes subtítulos en español?? Se te vació la Caramelera?
Jajaja esperemos que pronto se de cuentaq
@@alejandroserra9711 tiene idioma que hablan 5 personas y no tiene español 🙈
Subtitles disponibles
@@Chadigracias
No gi is half wrestling, the stance, the takedowns, the tie ups and body control are almost entirely imported from wrestling, Americans merged the two, Helio doesn't really matter in this discussion. That's just a fact, I've been doing BJJ since 1997 and wrestled for 13yrs I personally watched and was involved in the evolution of nogi. You've really missed the mark here.
The stances in gi, and no gi are mostly the same. I started in 1997, and this was already a part of BJJ grappling.
That depends e surely on if the coach has a wrestling background,otherwise its just bjj with no jacket.Many of the best gracies had basic wrestling and judo standup coaching also.Its the USA that no gi took off however and evolved it far beyond Brazil or any Gracie jj.
They train like bodybuilders with wrestling endurance because they’re on steroids. USADA needs to clean up jiu jitsu too.
Luta Livre, is the original no gi
Who is the white man in the sumo matches
All jui jitsu did was take the wrestling with submissions principles stemming back from the ancient Greco-Roman antiquity ;and repackage it with or without clothing-and claim it as their own.
What about the influence of America on BJJ with it being adopted/learned by folks that are adept wrestlers (freestyle, folkstyle, etc)? Not that it's the sole cause or source of modern No-Gi, but I feel like it's an important aspect of the story when you consider how modern MMA exploded from the States.
I’m sure there is some relevance there. Example, Eddie Bravo who was a wrestler before a BJJ guy.
@@rns7426I don’t think Eddie was a wrestler before he learned BJJ.
@@samuelhite2887 yeah he wrestled in high school before he had ever heard about BJJ. Believe it or not, us old guys grew up without BJJ. Once upon a time there was only Judo and wrestling.
@@rns7426 my mistake. I thought Eddie didn’t do any sports before Bjj and was just a kid in a band.
@@samuelhite2887 he played American football as well.
Ancient Hellas 🇬🇷!!! Duh...
Everyone wears clothes in the real world. I don’t see how grips wouldn’t apply in a fight.
Any thicker jacket is a gi basically but lighter stuff will RIP and not be useful,in Brazil obviously everyone is in tshirts and less
I still think its enough to grip for control and throw. I get it the fabric "might" rip on a T-Shirt but a polo-shirt or sweater are thicker typically. Everyone wears clothes "shirt and pants" and I don't see how tachi-waza wouldn't apply. Where I live people don't usually walk around topless or in rash guards. Grips can also be applied by grabbing the neck, shoulders, and wrists. I don't feel it 100% necessary to practice no -gi in order to be able to effectively translate if you cant get a grip on fabric. Just my opinion.@@scarred10
Lancashire catch as catch can wrestling. Next question.
Пояс - дань боевой традиции. На поясе воин носил ОРУЖИЕ. Потеря пояса критична для война.
Борьба в одежде имитирует схватку на поле боя. Нет армий, где солдаты воюют голыми. Потому и техника разработана для борьбы с одетым противником.
I’ll say mma people wanted their bjj to be more realistic for mma and nogi is
People who either A. Have a brain and realise a gi resembles absoloutely no other clothing in the world or B. Live in Alaska.
All I've done is gi BJJ. That's not a typo. Gi BJJ. Jiu-Jitsu not jujutsu came from India and BJJ was also inspired from Maieda from Judo who was from Japan.
It comes from Catch as Catch Can, not BJJ
Somebody didn’t actually watch the video
@@chcknpie04 - I did and blah Brazil Blah blah blah Brazil. No GI wrestling with submissions was being done in Catch as Catch Can in the 1800s. I get it the BJJ crowd wants to claim everything is from BJJ but it's not.
Lol😂 Nogi today at this point is literally just luta livre aka Brazilian catch wrestling and it has also reincorporated old school judo techniques as well as other catch wrestling techniques. All the luta livre guys in brazil went into Nogi. Heel hooks and leg locks all come from catch wrestling/judo but as it pertains to BJJ it mostly came from luta livre, it was assimilated into modern BJJ making Nogi today. Judo itself has some roots in sumo though. All these ppl claiming it was the Americans that made Nogi are hilarious, theres barely any catch wrestling in the US it was almost dead until Nogi came. The gracies were against Nogi and leglocks and heel hooks because it was used by luta livre guys. Modern BJJ turned away from the Gracies and started adopting luta livre and old school judo moves and other wrestling. BJJ has been very insular. 10th planet didnt invent shit it just took from luta livre and/or catch wrestling/judo whether knowingly or unknowingly
Absurd. Helio demonstrated leg locks in his earliest demonstrations. BJJ guys dominated through positional play. Leglocks were not a deciding factor in BJJ vs. Luta Livre fights. The modern leglock game is completely separate from other styles. It is much more techincal and advanced, and it was developed mostly by Danaher's crew under Renzo.
Wrestling. Simple as that. As much as you want it to be, it has nothing to do with Judo. Absolutely nothing.
I mean wrestling has nothing to do with ju jitsu. So it's not wrestling as much as you want it to be. Wrestling is just catching legs and then stand back up
@@dhimankalita1690 The fact that you think that is all wrestling is says enough.
Judo is wrestling by definition.
There are pictures from pre 1900 jiujitsu grappling no gi. As much as you want it to be wrestling, it didn't exist in several equations where there was no gi grappling seen. Chadi explained correctly that it goes through stages.
Let’s not pretend it’s something that it isn’t either glazer, it’s like the Taekwondo or boxing of the grappling world. They only train a very one dimensional aspect of grappling compared to Judo which is more like the Muay Thai/kickboxing of grappling
No gee Jiu-Jitsu is wrestling. I don't care what anybody calls it.
that is an over simplication
Judo is just japanese wrestling with gi - are you happy now?
Yes, everything is wrestling either with a pajama or without
The goals are quite different. No-gi does not value a pin like wrestling does
No it is not. Wrestling doens't have submissions. Wrestling is apart of no gi grappling but no gi grappling isn't just wrestling
No gi comes from Eddie bravo from 10th planet jj because he wanted to learn jj that was more effective in mma
No mate. In the late 80s and 90s the BJJ community realized that traditional bjj wasnt great for pro MMA. So they started training for fights without the gi, mimicking shoot wrestlers (Catch Wrestlers). Renzo Gracie is a classic example. Eddie was not the first to emphasize no-gi in the modern era. However, Eddie was instrumental in promoting no-gi grappling, not just for fighting but also for grappling tournaments in the early days.
Because no one walks around in a gi, and no gi is more realistic, especially in warmer climates
People don’t walk around with clothes on?
@@oliversacks3837 sometimes the weather gets so warm that people walk around shirtless
@@deustaitan But they arent nude. You cant still grab the pants. And not everyone goes shirtless. czcams.com/video/KBJvtPTpd4A/video.html
@@deustaitanjust grab skin and pull
@@coffe2270 that’s why it’s essential to practice no gi jiu jitsu as well
It comes from a bunch of roid heads who don’t wanna learn the art.
interesting idea 🙂