Fender Offset Vibrato Position: Does it Make a Difference???
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
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This week we're going to have a look at one of my least favorite changes Fender's made to certain Jazzmaster and Jaguar models: the ever-so-slightly-closer vibrato positioning found on the Squier Mascis, the Fender Classic Player, Blacktop, Player series, 50th Anniversary Jaguars, and others.
Does it make a difference? Does it change the sound? Does it alter the feel of the guitar? All of this and more will be answered in today's episode.
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EP Custom is making excellent pickups! Check them out here:
epcustompickups.com
A great video by Fazio Electric detailing maintenance of a cool White amp:
• Fender-Made WHITE AMP ...
CHAPPIES:
00:00-00:21 Intro
00:22-01:49 Vibrato Position
01:50-04:05 The Jaguar
04:06-05:22 Vintage vs Modern UNPLUGGED
05:23-08:15 Unplugged Thoughts
08:16-12:48 Back and Forth Demo
12:49-16:54 Findings
16:55- 18:19 Conclusions
18:20-19:03 Outro - Hudba
I had no idea this was a thing, but looks wise vintage is a winner for me.
I thought that acoustically the vintage positioning had an “airy” quality to it, where as the modern positioning had more of a focused sound to it. I preferred the vintage sound. I love your videos Mike!
I heard exactly this. A jangly unfocused sound in vintage and a punchy Tele like snap in modern
To clarify, I prefer the former from an offset and the latter from my tele.
I extended the term plate back so the string length was 162mm behind the bridge. An exact 1/4 of the scale length so the notes behind the string were exactly two octaves up from the string. Now that was a noisy and fun to play instrument.
Love it!
4:19 Vintage unplugged
4:40 Modern unplugged
8:16 Vintage bridge
9:12 Modern bridge
8:34 Vintage both
9:31 Modern both
8:53 Vintage neck
9:50 Modern neck
Watching this wayyy later than it was posted, but hearing O's name dropped brought a smile.
RIP❤
Me before watching: I don't care if the vibrato moved.
Me after watching: HOW DARE THEY
:) haha yes indeed
New puisheen video= a good day
Differences to the spacing aside, those pickups sounded wonderful
Can’t believe no one has commented on the EP Customs! They sounded marvelous, very sproingy and slinky.
Thanks for the fun video, dude 😎
I appreciate experiments like these, even as someone who doesn't play guitars with vibratos.
Great video as always Mike! Thank you for being brave enough and curious enough to do experiments like these and share the results with the world. I can’t wait to see this Jaguar in its final form, and I’m excited to see what color you choose for the body.
I have been waiting for this video for ages to know if I want a J Mascis. Thanks for the awesome content 😊
i dont know what do i love more: your reviews or your guitar playing, thanks for everything, keep up the good work
Your work is fantastic. Thanks Mike
Hello from Oz. Love the channel. Just a got a Classic Vibe Jazzmaster and thanks to your channel was able to set it up and it feels amazing. The fretboard needed a major clean up of the frets, those micromesh pads are amazing. Thanks for all the great tips. I now have a great guitar!
love that contrast of the raw wood w the shiny sleekness of the driveline....also in the thumbnail of the reverse image the vibrato arm makes a gorgeous contour line within the pick guard as if it's another chrome detail within it....that should be a thing....
Hey can I ask what you mean by "driveline"? I'm unfamiliar with the term! I do like your chrome contour idea
@@Puisheensure of course... just using a car reference....like the power supply...that shape and body layout very akin to the design elements of the performance cars of the era...and that raw wood brings it out even more...and much like a gearhead of the day wrenching in his garage for minute gains here you are checking out what difference fractions can make in trem performance...I love it!!!
@@alanagottalottasay997 Ahhhh that works great for guitars too! Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me, I really love the intersection of cars and guitars. This is great!
Love your vids Mike-you help me embrace my inner Geek!
I have a classic player jazzmaster, I really look forward to see you playing with one of these models, and how we (and I) can improve it! lots of love for you! :)
Someone pointed it out to me on a Squier JMJM and I’ve always wondered if it was just a feel thing. Thanks for this.
Damn, talk about good timing, I was going out of my mind whether or not I should try and install the marauder trem or just stick with the normal spacing. Thank you so much for this video man, it really cleared my thoughts
just got a vintera jazzy and found your channel. thank you for the tons of info and good vibes. My take - people used to playing a traditional will probably notice some difference in feel, but there was no discernable change in tone for me. it might be easier for us listeners to compare if you had put the individual pickup selector choices side by side - modern bridge/vintage bridge etc.
It does sound different, both acoustically and plugged in. I think this was done in order to kill the overtones allowed by the length of string behind the bridge (a lot of players put foam there).
Still, it sounds a bit more choked and "regular"... vintage for me ('65 Pure Vintage here, bought with your virtual help and convincing)!
Great video!!
Great comparison, finally a decent A/B to test the snake oil! My first offset was a 2010 Classic Player Jazzmaster, and I know exactly what you mean about the arm placement- for me that is the main thing! I like the relative tension on the spring, I like a bit of fight as with a Bigsby rather than the floatier feel of something like a strat.
Tension is what i noticed as well. I have a j mascis with an American vibrato on it and a 59 Jazzmaster came into the one shop that i teach a week ago and that was the first thing i noticed.
Kudos for being willing to prove/disprove your suspicions. As someone with no experience with this stuff, I didn't expect there to be any difference, but there was definitely more low end in the vintage position. Also, unplugged, it sounded like there was more resonance and sustain in the vintage position, and that the modern position is dulling the strings somewhat. Thanks for sharing!
Closer to middle of body, so frequencies peter out very quickly, versus more toward the bass end of the guitar.
Thank you , Mike, for exploring facets of guitar builds that others do not even think of. I swapped out a Jaguar bridge for a Mustang one and it changed the tone as much or more than a pickup swap.
Fender should have you on the design payroll. Cheers!🇨🇦
Interesting vid Mike! I felt the vintage spacing had more controlled low end and sustain. The modern spacing sounded like it had more low end but only slightly flubby, less sustain. This is just based on the clean examples, the distorted examples were almost identical to me. My Partsmaster (60s Roadworn Jazzmaster Body) has a vintage spaced vibrator position and feels better than my Squier JMJM especially with the TOM bridge. Behind the bridge play sucks as well on the JMJM. Keep the videos coming! Cheers.
Great idea for a video Mike, I think a lot of the difference is simply a change in what people become used to, mainly in respect of the tension depending on if you normally play short or longer spacing. A lot of these comments about things really affecting guitar tone tend to be a massive exaggeration. 👍🏻
Yet another superb entertaining, edifying and downright good fun video. Your knowledge of offsets is mega, as is your playing of them! You're up there with Sonic Youth, MBV, Costello, The Cure, Dinosaur jnr, Lush, Ride, the Banshees, Pavement and Noel Gallagher (yes, even *he* has started gigging a JM) er, I think I may have left someone out?
But what is"PUISHEEN"? and how is it pronounced correctly?
Peace out, ya frickin God !!!
Call me crazy. I’m one of those guys that likes the modern spacing. I’ve owned two vintage spaced guitars and replaced them with two modern. I find the modern more stable and get less rattling on both. Different strokes for different folks. Thanks for the comparison.
Shimming is the real answer to rattle IMO
The only person I know that tested the "Les Paul top wrap" found that top wrapping causes the strings to need more force to bend to the same pitch or note as non-top wrapping. So if it took 1.21 lbs to bend to bend the high E to an F on a standard tailpiece, it would take 1.41 lbs to to do the same bend with top wrapped strings. It was the same on every string. Top wrapping causes you to use more force to bend to the same note.
Good job! Happy Friday my old pal.
I've been very curious about this ever since I accidentally bought a Jazzmaster with a modern spacing (Vintera Jazzmaster Modified) but I honestly couldn't hear a difference in this test aside from the behind the bridge. Very cool test though. And for the record, this is my first Jazzmaster and it might be my favorite guitar I've owned so far after installing a mastery bridge. Love it.
I got rid of my J Mascis because of the vibrato position. I have songs where I play behind the bridge, it sounded completely different, not in a good way.
Love your videos. And yeah this was a dealbreaker for me when it came to buying a Squier j mascis or a fender classic player. I don’t like the modern position
Also thank you forever for taking the time and luthier skills to make such a wonderful video. You even used the same guitar! You dropped this 👑 lol
“Vintage”spacing for me. I’ve owned a 50th Anniversary Jaguar and currently a 1966 Jaguar. The ol’ girl plays and sounds galaxies better. Strings ring out more...like a piano. The essence of the Jag is lost in the new spacing...but that’s just me. Excellent video.
Cool video. Thanks for taking the time to do this. I like both, though both my jazzmasters have the vintage spacing. But my friend’s classic player jag with vintage vibe brand Jaguar pickup-looking p90s feels and sounds amazing to me. Then again, I’m not a 24 scale dude generally so I probably don’t notice the subtle difference. I noticed Creston often uses a modern-style vibrato location to, I guess, achieve a stronger fundamental as a result of a steeper break angle. I know you despise the buzz stop, but it definitely seems to make the fundamental more pronounced and seems to decrease the jazzmaster’s characteristic airy overtones, for better or worse. With the Jaguar’s short scale there appears to be no appreciable sonic difference, but I wonder if one might hear a difference on a 25.5 scale guitar.
Great video! Could you do a video on 'how to setup a Jazzmaster/Jaguar trem'? I mean from stringing the guitar up to adjusting the tension in the spring, what's good, what isn't, how far the trem bar should be out or if the trem hole should be perpendicular etc. The strat trem gets a lot of coverage but the jag trem doesn't because it seems easier to set up but I reckon it isn't. Oh and how to bend the trem bar into better, ergonomical shapes :)
Love your videos! Any chance you’ll get around to doing a video around a 70s jag/jazzmaster? I’ve got a 72 jag and it’s hard to find much on them!
Hey Mike this is a real good video
I’ve been hoping for this exact video. Thanks, Mike! One thing I wish you would have shown us is “behind the bridge” playing. I imagine the two positions yield very different results.
I did
@@Puisheen Can't believe I missed that. I'm so embarrassed.
Nice vid, didn't know there was 2 positions. What do you think of a offset buyers guide vid? Offer some insight on what pros/cons to look for opinions on what price is fair
Super interesting.. I like a looser feel so I'll probs stick with vintage whenever I can.
My first thought was that there would be a change in the amount of behind-the-bridge overtones.
I could have just been specifically listening for that, but it seemed like the case.
Dig it.
Whoa. There's a stark difference in the acoustic sound between the two. 😲
Great little guitar for testing options
Was fantastic to see this demonstrated. Can you route out the back of the vibrato cavity further and see what it sounds like further back than vintage spacing?
I don't know that I want to go that far! I do plan on having this body finished at some point, so the less I have to hide the better!
well I am on the other side probably as on my monitors, during the unplugged chapter I hear pretty drastic difference like switching from the bridge to neck pickup..I had to rewatch to check if you are not strumming closely to the neck but no..might it be? but really it's there in that chapter
Awesome video bro! I'm looking for a jazzmaster and this video help me a lot. BTW, I got another question about it. Which different between tremolo bridge, like stratocaster to vibrato bridge on Jazzmaster? tks and success from Brazil
I noticed a slight difference, especially acoustically. Sounded tighter to me, less of an open sustain. I'm waiting on my jag from MJT to arrive... curious which bridge spacing they use. I never asked.
But boy howdy do I love a jag neck pickup! The best way I can describe it is "chunky" and "clear"... glassy? Pristine? My favourite neck pickup sound of all time.
I have a Jazzmaster and a Jaguar, both post-2000 AVRI with the vintage spacing. The Jazzmaster's break angle was so slight that .010s jumped right out of the saddles with even light picking. Had to install a Buzz-Stop, and now it likes .009's, but the behind-the-bridge string length is effectively much shorter than even modern spacing. Kinda takes away from that "Bob Bogle" thing only a Jazzmaster can do, but at least it's playable. The Jag, on the other hand, does fine with .010's, probably due to the shorter scale.
I've had a Classic Player since 2012 and, well, I've never even tried a vintage spacing! I'm almost worried that when I'm able to invest in a more expensive offset, I'll find it "weird" feeling! Ha. One thing I will say, though, is that aesthetically I've always thought the closer spacing looked a bit cramped. But I like how "tight" and focused it feels, at least on mine. Such a nice, resonant guitar.
Closer spacing adds more string tension due to more break angle behind the bridge. This adds more sustain and top end where the vintage spacing is looser and more midrangey. It's definitely more noticeable uplugged, but it's still there plugged in.
I kind of like the sound of the closer spacing since Jags tend to be fairly midrangey and low sustain. Obviously that's part of the character, so it's ultimately down to taste.
There is a tradeoff with the strings behind the bridge, it adds impure tone/harmonics to the normal tone of the guitar strings. You can clearly see this using a pitchshifter or guitar synth, which track the notes you're playing. Jazzmaster confuses these devices much more than a Strat does. It also kills some sustain. But you get the ability to play behind the bridge. And you get some different sounds. The trem also works much smoother than a Strat trem. To increase sustain, you may use a guitar with a trem closer to the bridge, shim the neck to increase the string break angle on the bridge, use hotter pickups, or use a compressor, use heavier gauge strings, but these will also change the tone.
I agree I dont even use the term but jags are my go to and u feel a difference
I think the feel thing really depends on what you’re used to. I was able to hear an immediate difference acoustically, not better or worse, but I’d think it would be more noticeable in the room? I don’t know if there was more sustain or attack in the vintage, but It sounded more sensitive to how hard you would strum. It could have something to do with less ringing behind the bridge.
From experience with my Roadworn and Squier Deluxe, the modern spec on a JM doesn’t stop high-e impalement from unreinforced strings.
Vintage for me. Great experiment!
I've got the short spacing, and think it's fine. I understand it can be disturbing if you are used to the longer one, but it changes almost nothing in tone or playability. And can still play behind the bridge (in different frequencies than original ones).
Like lots of things in guitar world, if you believe it's bad or good, it will be for sure.
One thing that really changes tone in CP or Vintera modified JM is the TOM bridge. In a very good way for me. I tried to put a real JM bridge, but went back to the TOM. Sounds much more alive to me.
I have JM's in both configurations and I enjoy both. I agree that the modern spacing feels tighter and string bending is indeed more difficult but I like the struggle >:3
one of my favourite things to do is to sit at my drum kit and play along to your demos
If you ever post a vid let me know! I'd love to hear what you come up with
Maybe do a series about finishing the jag body and project, lovely comparison cause I didn't realize Fender moved the bridge 🤔
If the opportunity comes up, please do a video on a Jazzmaster or Jaguar with a tuneomatic bridge.
I enjoy the traditional location for maximum clanky, overtony goodness.
Off topic question but have you ever tried the Novak lipstick humbucker? I'm considering it in the neck of an lp copy and a dearmonds style gf in the bridge. And thank you for going where science dared not.
Hey Mike for me a big issue was being able to use the vibrato/tremolo arm the way I wanted to while playing songs like “SURF RIDER" by: The Lively Ones. After researching this issue on sites such as surfguitar-101and Off Set Guitars.com I decided on buying a Fender Tremolo Assembly for a Japanese Made Reissue '62 Jaguar/Jazzmaster ($50.00) and a Fender Tremolo Arm Import Japan Reissue Jaguar/Jazzmaster ($10.00). I got two of them and they dropped perfectly into both my 2016-17 Squire Vintage Modified Jaguar and my Squier Classic Vibe ‘60s Jazzmaster. The Japan Reissue Jaguar/Jazzmaster Tremolo Arm which appears to be more sharp at it’s bends as opposed to the more rounded bends of the trem arm which came stock works much better for me. I do have a 2018 MIM Classic player Jaguar Special with the Adjusto-Matic bridge and its tremolo plate moved closer to the bridge. I like the feel of my Squire V M Jaguar better but like the sound of the Special Design Hotter pickups which come stock with the Classic player Jaguar Special.
The Noventa JM has the modern trem position also. Curious to know what you think of that one. With P90s, middle pup, tune-o-matic, modern trem position, and no rhythm circuit it is far from a vintage JM. It's nice but I was surprised to not like it more when I tried it.
I just assumed the factory was able to use the same jig for the jazzmaster and jaguar or something along those lines.
I totally understand having a preference though. I don’t like surprises when I’m playing. Little things like where the trem arm (aka wobble knob) is located starts an avalanche of questions. Which tuning is this? Is my wah off or cocked? Even if I know the answer in a fraction of a nanosecond, a part of my brain engaged that would be better off silent.
That tremolo: consistent string spread with the bridge & neck? I took my Squire Vintage Modified Jazzmaster (hard tail, stacked tone/volume controls) to be routed and a tremolo added.
The spread on the tailpiece is considerably narrower than the bridge. Plus; the bridge to the tailpiece aren't centered correctly.
So, when I can afford it, I'll take the pickups & knobs and try to put them onto a do-it-yourself body/neck.
I like the new spacing... that said, on Les Pauls I like to load the strings in backwards and wrap them under the stoptail (bottom wrapping) to give a stronger break angle on the strings. so I think I might have unusual preferences. I like as much downward pressure on the bridge as I can get while still having things move smoothly. Not really a fan of the buzz stop though I'm also not super against it either. I don't use one. I would sooner do neck shim and modern vibrato spacing, and I usually use flatwounds that are 12s or 13s, but I'm switching to 11s I think in the near future because my playing style is changing.
I can totally see why contemporary rock and pop players might prefer the “modern” position. For me the tonal difference was quite evident - it sounded as though the reduction in harmonic resonance behind the bridge gave it a more immediate attack transient which translated into a more aggressive tone.
From my experience, Jaguars usually have a little under a whole note step more in range than Jazzmasters do bending down. With that being said, I am a pretty firm believer that the scale length has a decent amount of authority over the play of the vibrato assembly. It would be interesting to see this test done with a Jazzmaster!
Will you do a Squier J Macsis review? A lot of artists use that guitar profesionally and its often deemed a Fender quality Squier both tonally and in feel. I would very much like to hear what you think on it.
Whenever one comes into my hands, absolutely.
I could only hear a difference acoustically! If youve played offsets for decades the vintage will always 'feel' better.If its your first Off Set it doesnt matter either way I reckon but Aesthetically to me-Leo got it Right!
Kinda strange that the Player Jazzmaster has the shorter spacing, I have the Player series Jaguar that has the original spacing. I love that guitar, glad they went with the longer spec
Yeah I thought that was a curious choice, to shorten on one but not the other!
After mainly playing a 72 Thinline Tele reissue for 22 years I got my first Jazzmaster, a classic player in 2010. Fell in love with Jazzmaster’s from that day but … when I got my 60th anniversary in 2018, I just can’t explain it. There is something about the feel of the 60th, so much so that I have not even picked up the Classic Player since. You are right that it’s mainly feel, but I do think there is a slight difference in the overtones too, do you feel that?
Agreed! Modern felt a bit tighter or more focused for me.
Mike, I have a solution: maintain the break angle of the Modern, with the spacing of the Vintage. Quite frankly the spacing issue is a simple line of code in CNC. Easy enough to fix, but you're not carving bodies.
Drop the vertical height of the string mounts 1/16 of an inch (1.5mm if you are of that persuasion). With a break angle of 5 degrees or so, this should give you the best of both worlds. Conversely, if you want the Modern spacing, raise the string mounts the same distance. For every 5 degrees of break angle between these two horizontal spacings, raise or lower where the strings are mounted. Should give you a closer approximation to the string feel than the horizontal spacing will grant you.
Or you could just set it up correctly and save yourself a lot of extra work lol
I have a 2017 American Professional Jazzmaster and it's setup with the vintage Virbrato distance. I wasn't aware it had been moved before this video.. why there are two different distances I don't know
The modern spacing makes it almost sound like a strat, acoustically speaking.
Hey Mike! Have you tried moving it even further back for other notes?
The part you played between 10:10 and 10:40 sounds so good! Is it an original?
Everything's made up, yeah. Thanks!
To me the Mustang "Dynamic Vibrato" always seemed to be Leo Fender's improved version of the older Jazzmaser and Jaguar units. Maybe he finally came to the conclusion if bridge and tailpiece are closer together the whole thing becomes more player friendly after all.
Definitely less low end with the modern position. sounds better with vintage spacing!
So how can I move the trem on my squire JMJ
I have a Fender reissue Jazzmaster from the Custom Shop that is being held for me and am new to this guitar. I am now finding out that the bridge may be junk and the tremolo needs to be replaced? The research I have done is telling me that the strings can jump off and they have it set up with number 10 strings that some say the tremolo does not like. Do you know if the custom shop sets up the guitar so it works well with the lite strings and uses Loctite? Or should I cancel my order and find something that is more reliable? Chicago Music Exchange had it made special for them.
Nope, the bridge and vibrato should be great on your guitar. It just needs a setup. It's true that the lowest gauge I recommend is 11 on these guitars as they were originally designed for heavy gauge flats.
Share your predjudice, appreciate the test. What about Squier Bass VI trem position vs vintage: did they change the spacing and if so does it make a difference?
They probably moved it to increase break angle and reduce string buzz on guitars most likely to be in the hands of beginners, who will be less likely to master a finicky setup or get a $200 aftermarket bridge.
As far as I can tell it's vintage correct in the Squire CV VI that I own.
Yeah they've always had that spacing, there's not too much space on that body to adjust. Plus, finding sets of strings for the vibrato moved back would be way harder
I'm sure that's why Fender moved it, but it doesn't hold up from the amount of CPs and Mascis guitars I see with string issues
Love the unfinished wooden look of that jaguar
not sure if it was just me but I heard a sound difference between the vintage and modern. the modern had a more focused sound with more mids and less brittle highs. enough of a change to make it sound less like a jag.
Superinteresting!
Question, I’m thinking about putting one of these together, and can source most of the parts, but I don’t wanna pay $$$ for an official Fender neck. Any idea where I can find a knock-off neck?
Warmoth, Guitar Mill, USACG are all good options
@@Puisheen Thanks buddy, I wasn’t even expecting an answer 👍😉
I love your channel by the way. Some amazing background to these offset guitars, I love how you put them together, save them & make them play better. I’m learning loads here.
On top of that some cool tones, and your jokes make me chuckle. Great entertainment when the kids are asleep. Can’t ask for more 💪🤪
I actually thought the modern position has more low end. It also sounded a little tighter and more direct in the modern position in all examples for me. HOWEVER, I'm also a vintage position guy (previously always by looks and mind) and in comparison this does have an influence to the sound that I associate with Jaguars/Jazzmasters.
Don’t guitars with closer bridge position come with shorter trem arms?
Hello! Just curious, where did you get the split 12 jaguar pickguard?
The guard came from fenderparts on eBay but was blank, I had to modify it for XII pickups
@@Puisheen gotcha, thanks for the answer!
I remember this was kind of a big deal for me when I bought my Vintera Jazzmaster. I wanted the closest thing to the vintage version within my budget.
Maybe I missed it. But have you done a video on bending the arm?
I touch on that in the OTB video with Matt's '65 Jazzmaster
In the Modern position it sounds tighter and somewhat brighter to my ears. Less sustain, sort of like an emulation of the vintage tone.
Rosewood board with clay dots is so handsome.
Agreed, my favorite look
@@Puisheen I did own a late 1959 blonde telecaster many years ago. I am sure that is where it started.
Hey Mike, what's your opinion on the Jaguar player serie ?
They're fine
This one is a doozy! My body is ready
Vintage was better sounding i think , i have 62 jazzmaster and love that resonance, my gretsch astro jet has virtually no break angle and sounds great but it does cause issues
I top-wrap my Les Paul because... Jimmy Page did it and it feels cool to me to do it. Does it improve the feel? Not really. Does it improve the tone? Not at all. But I still like it.
The modern position sounds best!