Should Climbers Take a Collagen Supplement? (Make an Informed Decision)
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 31. 05. 2024
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// TIMESTAMPS //
00:00 Context
01:10 The Collagen Song
02:55 Part 1: What is Collagen?
03:35 Part 2: How Do Our Bodies Use Collagen?
04:26 Part 3: The Theory Behind Collagen Supplements
05:23 New Merch Announcement!
05:38 Part 4: Relevant Research for Climbers
05:59 Research Article 1
08:15 Research Article 2
09:17 Research Article 3
12:01 Research Article 4
14:22 Research Article 5
16:41 Overall Takeaway from the Research
18:45 Part 6: Should Climbers Take Collagen or Not?
21:02 Part 7: Dietitian Danielle
22:19 Part 8: Recommendations for Taking Collagen
22:48 Part 9: The Final Word
23:25 Wait...
// SHOW NOTES //
Episode 100
INTRO
As a physical therapist, I spend most of my time helping people heal from injuries. To do this, I prefer to take a research-based approach, because I believe the scientific method is usually our best bet for arriving at useful conclusions.
As a climber/CZcamsr, I like to take the same approach to making these videos, so when we decided we wanted to join the rather polarizing discussion on collagen supplementation for climbers, my first thought was simple: âshow me the research.â
Who cares if my buddy swears by collagen supplements? Who cares if that influencer says it cured his tendinitis? Who cares if pro athletes are sponsored by collagen companies? Just show me the science and the decision will be obvious!
Ugh, well, as usual, itâs not quite that easy. In fact, this was one of the toughest videos weâve ever made. Letâs do a brief run-down of what collagen actually is so we have some context, and then weâll get into the real nitty gritty stuff.
Ran out of room!! For the rest, please check out the show notes:
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// DISCLAIMER //
As always, exercises and rehab programs are to be performed assuming your own risk and should not be done if you feel you are at risk for injury. See a medical professional if you have concerns before starting a new training or recovery program.
// IMAGE ATTRIBUTIONS //
Collagen Triple Helix: Laboratoires Servier, CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Collagen Structure: Laboratoires Servier, CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Hand: Pogrebnoj-Alexandroff, CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Zinc: Jurii, CC BY 3.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Copper: Jonathan Zander
Junk Food: Peg93, CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Confetti Animation: www.enchanted.media
Thumbs Down: Font Awesome Free 5.2.0 by @fontawesome - fontawesome.com, CC BY 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Facepalm: Alex E. Proimos, CC BY 2.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Healthy Food: Dan Gold, CC BY-SA 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
ZZZ: Vincent Le Moign
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Written and Produced by Jason Hooper and Emile Modesitt
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#trainclimbsendrepeat #collagensupplements #collagenforclimbers - Sport
ARE WE INFLUENCERZ YET???
Follow-Up Notes (Updated 02/04/2022):
1. AMINOS: The building blocks of collagen are NONessential amino acids, meaning your body can produce them without having to ingest them. This is different from essential amino acids, which you must obtain through diet.
2. REGULATION: At 18:55, supplements technically ARE regulated by the FDA, just not to the stringent level we'd like to see. From the FDA's website: "Dietary supplements are regulated by the FDA as food, not as drugs. However, many dietary supplements contain ingredients that have strong biological effects which may conflict with a medicine you are taking or a medical condition you may have. Products containing hidden drugs are also sometimes falsely marketed as dietary supplements, putting consumers at even greater risk. For these reasons, it is important to consult with a health care professional before using any dietary supplement."
3. GNARLY/ZINC: At 19:17, we quote an article by Nutrition for Climbers that points out Gnarly Collagen Pro contains added zinc and that prolonged zinc supplementation could cause several issues, including copper deficiency, anemia, and interactions with medications. Gnarly claims that, because their Collagen Pro supplements also contain copper, the copper deficiency issue is negated.
4. FORMS: Collagen supplements can take multiple forms. âHydrolyzedâ collagen or collagen âpeptidesâ means the collagen is already broken down into its constituent amino acids. This is different from other sources of collagen like gelatin (the stuff thatâs in gummy bears, jello, and TONS of other foods), in which the collagen structure is still âintact.â As far as we can tell, more research is needed to determine if one delivery method is superior to the other.
Sure you are!
not until you start taking money from a supplement company!
cringe
Yes!!!
Yes, you influenced me not to buy any product. Iâve had this question for some time and Iâm thankful for this video.
From a researcher as myself I can only say I love you. Your critical judgment was over the top. Love the cost-benefit analysis argument, love the analyses of pros and cons, how much you talked about statistical power, conflict of interest, even the final comment on the true effect size. Couldn't be better, really. I'm so happy to see someone do some real scientific dibate
Thank you for the comment! Emile and I had fun working on this one.
As someone who normally is very well researched, I feel a little bit ashamed that I fell prey to the "influencer said it" or "I saw a video on it" style of pitch. Now granted, what's weird is I've researched these things for hours, feeling confident in my collagen supplementation and recovery training methods.
I'm honestly really glad you released this video, as its given me an alternative critical lens to view this stuff through. The costs aren't trivial for me, so this might have saved me quite a bit of money in the long run.
Still not sure how I feel about it, but I'm glad I have some proper dissonance in my brain about it.
Keep being goofy, keep rapping, and keep helping climbers. You're a true gift to the climbing community â€ïž
Thanks for sharing! Sometimes the marketing is so good you donât even realize itâs biasing your thoughts.
Get a baseline education in biology before "researching supplementation". Supplementation is a marketing scam, pure and simple. For thousands of years we evolved just fine in a world where we could only eat a few select things. Now we live in a world where we can eat near anything and NOW we're selling nutrient deficiency to people? I don't buy it, and neither would anyone that has a basic biology education. Learn actual biology and actual nutrition. Don't "research supplements". There's nothing to research.
Gnarly here. Thanks for this well-researched and entertaining review on collagen. We agree thereâs more research to be done and we have personally been waiting for studies controlling for protein intake between study groups and/or including a protein dosage matched control group. As a correction, Gnarly Collagen Pro contains Vitamin C, zinc AND copper. Zinc and copper are included in Gnarly Collagen Pro because both micronutrients stimulate collagen production but also because, as you pointed out, taking large amounts of zinc without a balance of copper may cause copper deficiency. Also - supplements are regulated by the FDA. That being said, they may not be well regulated and there are definitely companies that donât follow those regulations. Itâs for these reasons that Gnarly products are both NSF and NSF for sport certified; NSF is a third-party quality certification group that tests products both annually and on a lot by lot basis for label claims and contaminants like microbes, heavy metals, pesticides, and all substances on the WADA banned substances list.
Hi! Thank you for providing insight into Gnarly's process. We've added several clarifications to the pinned comment above :)
@@HoopersBeta Appreciated. We do love and support content that empowers the people. Thank you.
Unrelated to climbing, I started a regiment of a daily multivitamin, fish oil, vitamin C gummies, turmeric, collagen with biotin, and aspirin for my Achilles Tendonopathy. I would take them before bed, after a workout; usually walking about 2.5 mile daily with 2 upper body strength training and 20 minute interval lower body session which is stair climbing, or elliptical. My goal was to target inflammation with the supplements.
I was totally skeptical that it would make any difference, as I had not had any real success with with supplement for recovery or rehab. So, I was very surprised when my Achilles Tendon was not sore in the morning, at all. When I would wake up there was no tightness or soreness unless I pushed to the range of the jointâs mobility. I even noticed a marked change when I wasnât using anything.
I cannot claim it is any one of the bank of supplements that is helping. Or if any of these are synergistically interacting. I will claim that I found something that works for me. Itâs really the only time I can claim anything specifically helped my training and recovery, besides adding a larger volume of HR Zone 2 training (walking)
Thanks for all the hard work you put into this video!!!
This was a long, well thought out, informative video that ultimately did not change my overall level of knowledge or plans moving forward. I will continue to supplement collagen before climbing-related activity for the chance there is a benefit. Thanks!
Holy cow collagen. What an amazing video. You did so much work for us summarizing the science. I love it. Incredibly helpful.
Thanks for the rigorous analysis and great popularization!
That song kinda slapped tho
Helps to have a music producer for a cousin đ @jakeplusbeats
Yea, it was fire
You are quickly becoming my favourite climbing channel on youtube. Real and useful real world information. Thanks and keep it up.
Thank you for the nice comment! We are glad you find our videos beneficial :)
happy to be 1000th like hope you get many more as its greatly deserved! excellent content as always!
Thank you for the support!!
I really appreciate the emphasis on taking collagen prior to physical activity as opposed to after. Coming from the bodybuilding world this is definitely a little bit different and I appreciate the info. Well I continue to take collagen out of habit? Probably. Question is when are you gonna do the video breakdown on pentosan polysulfate as a climbing ped :).
Love it hoop! Sifting through research may not be the sexiest thing that gets you the most views, however there are people out there who value what you do. Thanks for taking the time to make informed videos!
Thank you for the comment! We appreciate the support.
this video is an absolute banger from start to finish. well done
Last time i injured my finger flexor and you made a video about it like a week later, now i orderd some collegen to help with the recovery and rebuilding for the first time ever and you make this. Perfect timing as always :D
Love this thoughtful video !!! The hype đ„Č
Additional qualitative sample size of 1: I took up collagen supplementing 6 or so months ago to see if it would help my fingers recover faster (as a 30 something year old - finger recovery is what usually holds me back from climbing more than 3 times per week). I haven't noticed any improvement (not even placebo sadly)! 'Why are you still taking them after 6 months' I hear you ask... optimistic purchase of a buy 2 get 1 free offer....
No control group ? đ
But the threshold of ânoticing benefitâ is pretty high, right. If you were receiving a 1% benefit in collagen synthesis/repair then you probably wouldnât âfeelâ anything. Could still be worth doing. Itâs not that expensive
What has benefitted you the most in finger recovery? Iâm a 30 something with finger issues too.
@@markdewey1587 power fingers bands to train the extensors has been great for my synovitis in my middle finger.
@@markdewey1587 i think tendon glides are the best thing i have introduced that help reduce stiffness/ speed up recovery
Incredible video. Ill stop researching collagen now. This told me everything i need to know about what we know about collagen currently! Maybe Ill revisit this matter in a couple of years!
Good call! Yeah it's always a good idea to stay on top of any updates in the research just in case :)
Thanks for this video! About a year ago, I was trying to decide if I should take collagen and I read that it does not contain all nine essential amino acids. That was enough for me to decide I'll just eat other sources of protein. A dozen eggs is cheaper.
I appreciate you pointing out how the control groups were obviously going to show that collagen is beneficial in the studies. Yeah, eating literally any source of protein in any amount is better than sugar or nothing. It reminds me of how I can't find research about red meat that doesn't include hot dogs and salami.
Love the videos. Thank you for all your hard work.
You guys killed it on this one đđ»
This is incredible thank for giving us the best of both worlds. Influencer level style with actual science. Also sick beats!!
Thank you! Haha sick beats 4 life!
Thanks for this very informative video!!
I avoided watching your videos for a while because they seemed a little click-bait-y. But I'm 100% on board now. I have a hard science background and it makes me very very happy to see someone rigorously analyzing all the different programs and hype. Healthy skepticism is the only rational approach since there is so little definitive research. Thanks!
Eric Hörst will be unhappy with this video and I'm alright with this. Thanks for the information!
You guys are really making videos at a high level - impressive
Thank you!
You just saved me a whole load of money, bro :) Thanks!
Seriously well done content and video!
Thank you!
Great content and really funny. You should get more views. It made me buy a T-shirt to support you. Keep the hard work and great content/research!
Awesome! Thanks for the support! Yeah the new T-shirt designs are great! (in my biased opinion of course lol)
Great video as always! :D
I'd love to see a video about climbers with varies degrees of flat feet, I haven't have it professionally checked but from a few tests I believe I have some degree of it so I really want to learn more about it.
For the video it can include its effect to climbing(skill, technique and risk etc), including exercises/ tips that might be useful for those with flat feet and maybe rudimentary identification method to test at home !
Adam Ondra have flat feet
Yeah, I got some real pancakes going on also. Seems to be fine?
You noticing any particular problems?
@@danielbeall7725 Iâm quite a beginner myself so Iâd say I canât tell the difference, thereâs one thing Iâm not sure if thereâs a connection is that if Iâm tipping toe hard with my heel higher I could some times get a cramp in the arch area.
Perhaps itâs just my over all untrained weak leg/feet thatâs why I want to learn more about it :3
Quality banter - full marks from a Brit! Great content as always guys!
Thank you!
Thanks for the video! This is a somewhat sensitive topic. Iâve been taking PhysiVantage super charged collagen for a couple years now based off the info Eric Horst podcast. Personally Iâve noticed differences. Iâm 40 & have been climbing for 12 years; and as Iâve gotten older my joints would ache since taking SC they no longer ache. Also, Iâve had a few finger injuries over the years, Im actually dealing with some tendon strains right now; my PT said would be about a 3 month healing period, but itâs been a month and it feels pretty close to 100% better. Iâve noticed changes so Iâm going to keep taking it. I feel itâs best to test it out on your own body if it works great, take it; if it doesnât no biggie donât take it.
Iâm hopeful there will be more research in the future!
Thanks for sharing! Awesome to hear that it has helped make you feel better. You're right and we agree! Definitely want more research, but making informed, individual decisions is best for now :)
Thank you very to make this video, I have tennis elbow and my elbow tendons time to time is sensitive, and is a long time I'm searching methods to never have pain in that area and after watching this video I think the best way is to "train" that are regularly and eat well, thanks to clear my mind
Would band/pull resistance training help for that (think opposite of a curl)? I feel like working/strengthening the tissues the opposite direction maybe could help.
I like the dedicated effort to be scientific accurate. Thank you for doing the work and spreading proper information.
Thanks for the support!
Great video thank you! Taking it for skin benefits anyway so hope it helps with climbing too.
This video is extremly informative , extremly funny, well made and I totally agree they with all of your points, they could done the placebo with whey protein that enriched with vitamin C and zinc for example.
Thank you, you have earned a permanent loyal subscriber.
Thanks for the support and welcome to the HB family!
Great video with excellent breakdown of the studies. In 30 years of climbing Iâve tried collagen numerous times, and never seen any positive effect (sadly), on my fingers or knees. Consuming eggs for breakfast on heavy days, along with some BCAA makes noticeable difference, even though I eat plenty of meat and veggie protein anyway. For me, It was good to see this in line with the conclusion of this video.
Thanks for sharing your experience! I will agree on the eggs. That's my go to :)
Thank you so much for that intro đ
Guys, you're awesome! I can't resist it, I'm setting up your song as my ringtone.
Hahaha COLLAAGEEEENNN!!
About 99% of promising biomolecules that are indentified in vitro don't make it into significant in vivo studies, therefore I'd always be very careful with studies that show effects on the human body from an in vitro measurement...
Thanks so much for this content, it's so time intensive to go through research and summarizing it like this is really great work!
This video is GOLD!
Love this scientific approach to supplements for climbers. Personally, I have been taken both collagen in supplement form and topical serum (retinol). I have been lean and athletic most time of my life and eat mostly healthy so can't tell if it is effective anecdotally. May be some placebo effect (*different than zero effect, research showed). I do notice my nail and hair are better after taking collagen supplements.
What I would say is, even if it works, it is highly personal, e.g. is it effective, to what extend.
Lastly I do notice a calming/anti-inflammation effects from magnesium post workout.
Thank you so much for that video... i stopped counting how often i had precisely this discussion with friends... there is no evidence that a collagen supplement is any better than any other protein supplement or just good and healthy food.
I had really good results drinking chicken bone broth and taking a vitamin c supplement with zinc after a finger injury. I would drink the bone broth and take vitamin c before doing a fingerboard routine for rehab. I felt like my fingers were the best they have been for awhile after doing this routine for a couple months. No way to know if it was the collagen though
This is something I've really been interested in since I started climbing. In general, climbing takes a huge toll on tissues such as tendons and ligaments which heal a lot slower than muscle or skin. I have been working out and taking care of my nutrition for a long time so naturally, I take notice to recovery time. And the soreness in my tendons and ligaments did NOT heal like anything I was used to, so I tried a few different things.
In my personal experience, tendons and ligaments do heal better if you can get access to enough gelatin and collagen in your diet. As a Korean this isn't really an issue because there are dishes specifically made of cow knee joints etc.
One issue is that many climbers kinda veer away from consuming too much meat as a way of watching their weight, and I would assume that the access to foods containing animal joints is not universal. In these cases I do feel that collagen supplementation may help. Fish based collegen didn't really affect my recovery but cow collagens (especially type I) cut the recovery time on my finger pulley and collateral ligaments by about 30~50% and relieved tendon pain in my forearms. Of course this isn't a controlled study and I didn't injure my ligaments/tendons in the exact same manner and extent, eaten the exact same diet etc. in order to see the results. But I did have an abundance of minor injuries and it did take less time to feel comfortable to get back on the wall.
Thanks for the unique anecdote! Always fun to hear peopleâs personal experiences with collagen. It would be interesting to see a study comparing the collagen intake of different cultures and if thereâs any correlation to connective tissue health.
-Emile
Good stuff, thank you for sharing! I am going to try some supplementation and hope it helps my tennis elbow recovery.
I ended up not supplementing, but learned that some serious cardio seems to help accelerate healing (probably by nature of forcing better blood flow)
Great video!
I think the research is inconclusive and I love the way you break it down. I also think Jason should run his own study, and I volunteer as tribute.
Great video - as usual. I took up climbing kind of late in life - 56 years old. (I've worked my way up to "occasionally" sending 5.11d, typically as a day project - not bad for a noobie old guy!) I've always been athletic, but for some reason never thought about climbing until "the kids" took my Wife and I when we visited for Thanksgiving one year. We were hooked and kicked the regular gym to the curb. My diet is really good (98% of the time), no prescriptions and we take a few vitamins, powdered collagen being one of them with vitamin C mixed into it. Can't say if it helps or not actually - so this article has been super helpful in my quest to climb until I'm 100! BTW - I've used your research and suggestions for various injuries (pulleys tendons, extensor tendons etc.. warm up before climbing, cool down after) with great success. Thanks for what you do for the climbing community - keep it up!
Thanks for the comment Scott! Love to hear how you're staying healthy and climbing great! That's fantastic. Cool that you got into the sport later on as well. Keep up the good work and thanks for the support!
Might be worth mixing in a bit of whey and see if you notice anything. Fairly cheap, would make sense for it to be more effective (not the same as a guarantee of course).
Additionally, as we get older, our bodies become less sensitive to leucine, so somewhat larger protein doses are needed to stimulate protein syntheses.
@@danielbeall7725 Thanks for your thoughts..... We do a smoothie for breakfast every weekday morning with protein powder mixed in, mostly kale, spinach, carrot and other good stuff with a little fruit to mix it up day to day.(I cook on the weekends and it's typical breakfast "stuff" like omelets, pancakes, potatoes etc.). Maybe we can "up the dose" of protein for a while to see if it has any affect.
@@scottsmith7097 sounds like you have a pretty solid routine already, but shouldnât hurt to try!
AWSOME!!!! Keep it up!
Great video as always! The deep dive into the science is always very welcome. I was wondering if you knew anything about Glucosamine? I was experiencing really bad swelling and stiffness in my finger joints after climbing a while back, and have been taking joint care supplements for around 2 months now. Very minimal swelling/issues from climbing now! Wondering if you had any insight your end or if you might make a video on it. Cheers for the amazing content always.
Will definitely add that to the list, I think it would make an interesting video! Thanks for sharing
@@HoopersBeta No problem! If it helps at all with ingredients, Ive been taking Seven Seas Joint Care Supplex. And I believe I was experiencing synovitis in my fingers. Looking forward to more of your content. đȘ
I am super interested in the research. I started collagen supplements after ANOTHER major finger injury, and as an over 35 climber and 20 years of injuries stacking up, I was ready to try anything. Anecdotally, my recovery has been better, and notable "tweaks" are at an all-time low. At this point, I'm comfortable paying for the potential placebo. Side note, Orgain brand is half the price of the climber-centric Physivantage brand for the same product, and I can get it almost anywhere.
Holy crap, I was just looking up collagen studies on tendon reconstruction for my therapeutic interventions class a couple days ago, thanks for the concise summaries! I thought the recommendations you suggested were spot on for what we know. I specifically was stripping away the (Baar, 2017) Emil study, even though I quite liked the in-vitro study, it is still just in-vitro and not terribly applicable. Personally in the future, I have a feeling that collagen studies will show minimal impact on people who already have a well-rounded nutrient-rich diet, especially ones that don't discount animal products (where collagen and such are already found). For my personal interest, I am still skeptical about collagen in my own diet as a means to feel any extra collagen synthesis in my training. However, because curiosity killed the cat, I will try to find recommendations from my local dietician for some safe collagen supplements. Being a college student who cooks, I find myself eating well, but I do go through slumps of more poor nutrition when the semester gets tough. Maybe I'll find some miracle when taking the stuff an hour before my specific training. As I am in the first cycle of my training program it would be really cool to see any benefit, but again, there will most likely be no difference seen.
Let us know if you try it out and notice any changes! Luckily the risks are generally quite low so it can be quite fun to experiment with. And hopefully weâll get some comprehensive, high-quality research on collagen in the near future. Human nutrition studies are so hard though :(
You seem to already know the answer to your question. Save your money to get blood work and hire a dietician. The food you eat matters and you can tailor it to both taste good and nourish you. Supplementation is a scam. All of it. Not just collagen.
I only watched until 2.35 .. that was all the info i needed. Off to the collagen shop
đđ
Thanks!
Never found collagen research serious enough. At the end of the day, collagen is a relatively low quality protein with less amino acids than most other sources so why would you want to pay for that? I would consider it if they proved collagen specifically improved synthesis of final collagen in the body due to over abondance of the right amino acids but as you said, the research is far from reaching that conclusion and If I'm being cynical, I think comparing their products to sugar was on purpose, to show half decent results... I doubt collagen can beat egg or meat in a straight fight.
It's like comparing eating to not eating, lol. "wow ! body can rebuild better with food intake!!!"
Great video. The studies I personally wanna see are some where the placebo is an avocado, chickpeas or something like that. Trying to fix dietary problems with specific supplements won't help in the long run. And saying that a supplement "works" just because it's better than eating nothing or shit-food is just a fallacy.
Sample size of one - my 50yr old body seems to be responding well to collagen supplement - but correlation is not causation. I take it more for injury prevention as joints/shoulders/pulleys seem to be less happy w intense bouldering.
It would be great to have a vid on what practices and supplements you can do when you arenât climbing that can prevent common injuries.
I did the Emil hangboard routine and felt it was great at stretching things out and building a bit of resistive strength.
The concept of attaining resistance is not well understood in climbers - but you know it when you ultimately gain it.
Glad that it seems to have had a positive effect for you! That's what it's about anyway, right? Testing things out, seeing how we feel as individuals, and then making decisions based on that to help us perform at our best.
Terrific video
Dang my Hooper's Beta T-shirt is outdated now. Time to pick up that new merch! Amazing hundredth episode though guys. Congrats!
Hah nothing wrong with the OG T-shirts! But the new designs are pretty sweet if I must say so :)
Thks for the amount of work and informations. It helps me a lot with my clients. Is the "collagen song" on spotify? ;)
Glad to hear it! :) And thanks for the reminder, I've got to ask @jakeplusbeats (the music producer) to put the song on spotify haha
-Emile
Adding to your point near the end, instead of collagen, try gelatin which has the same amino acids. Add a scoop to your instant ramen broth (or soup, whatever) to give it some of that texture that real rich bone broth has. It's much cheaper too since you can get it as a food ingredient rather than a fact supplement which is marked up hard
wow, i can definitely check all the âcollagen wonât fixâ boxes.. i took a screenshot to see what i need to work on.. thanks xD
Glad it was helpful!
I hope there is some more research in the future! Anecdote: I started taking collagen along with nutrient supplements with an already overall balanced diet (good protein, good amount of fruits and veggies) and I feel like recovery after a hard session does feel faster than with solely a balanced diet. Could be placebo but who knows until more studies are done LOL. Great video!
Even if it is the placebo effect itâs always nice to feel like youâre recovering quickly! :)
how much more insider trading between supplement companies and "researchers" do we need to see to know that supplementation gives you a placebo effect at best?
best climbing youtuber, every climber needs to follow you
đ thanks for the support
For my own bit of anecdotal evidence, I have been consistently taking 20g of collagen paired with vitamin C before every climbing session (3-4 days per week, 4hours per day) post getting multiple A2 strains. It has been just under 3 months and the pain in my fingers is completely gone.
How's your diet overall? Do you think the collagen supplements are simply filling a gap in your protein intake or are they potentially helping on top of a solid diet?
@@HoopersBeta hard to say, 90% of the food I eat is made at home. Generally I eat a protein with every meal and try to pair that with either fruits or vegetables. However, my speculation is that when weâre injured, specifically in collagen dependent areas, it makes sense to me that the body would demand more of that specific molecule/compound in order to repair itself. I know that for rehabilitation specifically tailored towards muscle repair, itâs recommended to increase your protein intake (specifically proteins with the amino leucine?). So I would like to assume the same is true for ligament based injuries as well. However, I am but a simple climber. Iâm all talk and speculation đ .
3 months is long enough to heal a broken bone 3 weeks should be enough time to make a huge difference in any healing time
â@@adambeauchamp4813 I assume that you only have a certain amount of money. Use it to hire a good dietician instead of buying supplements. Nature provides.
Hahaha your humor really gets me :D
omg the song
Collagen sups made all the difference in my case. For 4 years my finger joints had been burning / inflamed after climbing sessions. Usually started 12 to 24 hours after, and could last up to 2 days. Tried everything: rollers, massage, antogonist flexor training, careful warmup & cool down, etc. I even designed morpho-adaptive fingerboards to train w all open fingers (on blogger: _Morpho adaptive Crimp Board for finger training & climbing_ )
Nothing made a dent. Until collagen sups (from physivantage). 2 weeks later it was mostly gone. That was a completely unexpected surprise. Fingers are now sore after a hard session but no longer burning like hell the next day.
I went vegetarian a couple of years before that time, and was not paying much attention to my diet. Bet I was not getting enough of the proteins / amino acids necessary for the body to rebuild collagen in my joints. Wish I had known that earlier, a couple of joints never fully recovered (sometimes stuck open or clicking)...
Great anecdote, thanks for sharing!
Another point I will make is that sugar will absolutely assist in exercise recovery both by repleting glycogen stores and by rapidly triggering protein synthesis by spiking insulin. (In response to the objections over sugar used as a placebo in the studies).
ngl i was sold 1 min in. not sure why you guys work so hard đ
The song convinced me the most!
We really should branch out into the music industry...
@@HoopersBeta Hooper's Beats, huh?
Best video to date. I think this topic calls for a large sacrifice of mice fed a radiolabled collagen feed. Carbon-14 for life!
The one thing I can definitely notice when supplementing collagen is the Increase of rate of hair and nail growth, so my idea is that at the very least it probably helps speed the recovery of the skin on my hands. Skin recovery times can definitely limit training, so maybe if only for the skin healing, is is worth the relatively low cost and low/no side effect profile. Also, every time I see someone recommend against any form of protein supplementation, I think it is worth noting that almost all food sources that contain equivalent protein quantities are more expensive than a protein supplement, and, if there are no negative side effects associated with the supplement, than what is really the downside? One last point would be that any form of protein supplementation will likely make it easier to increase one's protein/overall calorie intake ratio, which should improve body composition that is favorable to any uphill sports that benefit from an ideal strength to weight ratio. The high glycine levels in collagen may also have favorable effects aside from physical recovery such as better sleep and balancing neurotransmitters, but this is probably subjective and complex.
After looking at all those studies that only looked at Collagen supplementation vs placebo / sugar, I really wish those studies contained a third group of participants that supplemented with a protein /whey. It would have been interesting to see if whey supplementation, with all those precious amino acids, would have maximized collagen synthesis on its own
Would definitely be interesting to see a whey comparison!
The cynic in me thinks it's very likely they did. When there's a salable product involved, the science we don't see published is sometimes as telling as what they do.
The other one that seems to be conspicuously missing (unless Iâm remembering badly đŹ)
Is that they donât test collagen only or exercise only. All in all, rather weak controls and a tiny sample size.
One group having better results purely from statistical randomness isnât all that unlikely when you have ~ 2 people per groupâŠ
Another issue with drawing conclusions from multiple small studies. The negative studies generally get left out. As a former researcher with a handful of studies which had negative results, I can confidently say that they frequently don't get published or publish somewhere very obscure and do not get entered into searches. There may be dozens or hundreds of studies on this topic with inconclusive findings and we'd never know.
Excellent point! Thanks for sharing that insight. That's definitely a huge problem we face. Studies with uninteresting or insignificant findings don't get attention / publication but are still clearly important.
Thank you for the very informative video! I have to admit that I did not read the articles myself... so my question would be: Since the 'control' groups got sugar as a placebo... did the collagen group take the collagen with sugar? From your description (saying it just tells us collagen is better than sugar) it seems that was not the case. Can this be counted as a real placebo? I'd say the taste of sugar is quite noticable and different than that of collagen. If the participants new the general topic of the study, they could easily guess which group they were in. Even if that was not the case, it holds the possibility that the placebo effects of a non-sweet substance differ from that of a sweet substance.
That's fair! there could be a flavor difference. I'm not sure exactly what they did to combat that, but perhaps the liquid they mixed it with was enough to dilute it so it wasn't a huge difference. Good point / question though!
@@HoopersBeta was it sugar, or was it starch, which is slightly more complex and most notably not sweet per se like sugar (glucose).
Great song, off to buy.. things.
Dont stop at 100!! You have some of the most reliable info about Climbing fysiology out there. And in my opinion, the collagen science is a lot of crap. I would accept a study with 50 people and protein and aminoacids as placebo.
Thank you! We certainly have plans to keep working hard and appreciate the support!
Yooo need that song on Spotify ASAP shit slaps
Thank you Dr. Hooper for this hilarious and analytical approach to collagen supplementation and the studies that they rely on for their claims of efficacy. I appreciate your argument as a consumer advocate, noting that these claims by supplement companies are not approved by the FDA, which implies there is not enough oversight. It's very hard to find any dietary supplement that makes an actual FDA-verified claim on its label. However, to say that these collagen supplement companies claim that collagen makes you a "better climber" seems a little bad faith, since none of these companies make this claim outright. As a climber in my mid-30's, I first started taking collagen supplements a year ago in response to some nagging PIP joint pain, often triggered by half-crimping. I started using grocery-store collagen supplements, and then went on to PhysiVantage collagen supplements. I took them an hour prior to a daily finger warm-up / rehabilitation routine designed by Eric Horst, which can be found in a video on his T4C channel. Consider my experience an N of 1, but I think there is something to the claims that type-2 collagen supplements, when they have the right components and are taken in addition to a healthy diet, sleep schedule, and timed an hour (which relates back to the blood serum study you mentioned in your video) prior to a finger warm-up regiment, may reduce joint pain, or perhaps rebuild damaged connective tissue, or strengthen tendons, sinew, or even prevent injury.
Also Dave MacLeod, elder statesman of the global climbing community and holder of a MSc. in both Nutrition and Physiology, has asserted similar preventative/rehab benefits from eating meats rich in collagen, i.e. beef tendon, fish skin, and other connective tissue. You made a great point that collagen studies aren't conclusive when it comes to the recovery benefits or strength building benefits that they assert on their labels. But assuming for the sake of argument that collagen does help prevent or rehabilitate joint injury or even tendon/ligament injuries, it seems there are two split camps as to which source climbers should get their collagen. Considering the consumer-advocacy argument you made, I think it's safe to say that if you really, really *want* to take extra collagen for climbing reasons, then you should try to prioritize collagen straight from the source, i.e. beef tendon, fish skin, etc. Unless you're vegetarian/ vegan and there's some kind of plant-based type-2 collagen, then maybe take those instead of supplements. I honestly don't know. I am not an expert at all. Just curious about your thoughts.
It's totally wild that none of the studies did a direct comparison with equivalent (non collagen sourced) protein supplementation.
It seems to me this would be the most important point, if the collagen is actually doing something unique, something that equivalent food types don't do.
Given what we know about digestion it almost seems like we're assuming that there's some unknown, beneficial ingredient in collagen specifically that makes it worth taking.
I agree, that's a study I would love to see/read!!
It bugs me that most of the research doesn't mention if the participants are already consuming a proper amount of protein. At the very least cataloging the participants average macros per day should be a requirement before even publishing results. The difference between someone consuming 30 grams of protein per day and then getting another 30 grams in collagen is huge compared to someone already consuming 180 grams of protein per day.
Also, most studies in collagen never compare it to the most common and cheapest protein supplement: whey. I have a suspicion that just increasing your protein intake via any bioavailable protein would have the same effect as collagen supplementation.
Wonderfully said! That's a great point.
Yep, you nailed it, I think. I bet most people get enough of the right proteins in their diet that collagen sups do not make a diff. In my case, vegetarian, I stupidly destroyed my finger joints over 4 years (burning, inflamed) before stumbling on cosups by chance. It all went away in a couple of weeks. Did not know better... So yep, sample of 1, but I suspect that analysing people's diet in these studies might be key to understand why it sometimes does / not make a diff.
Thoughts on the "Stress, Relaxation and Targeted Nutrition To Treat Patellar Tendinopathy." (2018) case study from the Journal of Sport, Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism?
I am familiar with that one (but haven't done a full break down on it yet!) but since it was going off of research from Baar and that crew I figured better to analyze the source (the Baar research) in more detail instead. Good question and I'll have to dig into that one soon!
sample size in relation to effect size is what matters, not sample size alone. The VAS is a well validated tool in biomedical research to measure pain. Having said that; the overall conclusion that the role of collagen supplementation on tendon health and healing is still largely unknown. On the other hand, the risk-benefit ratio has nothing on the left side.
One question that I agree needs answering: how does collagen compare to having a proper pre-workout meal? or even collagen vs whey.
Great question!
@@HoopersBeta The other quality often attributed to Collagen supplementation is increased skin recovery after damage. Is there anything pointing that way in the research? I climb on Gritstone a lot, and it really wears the tips down. Faster turnover at the tips would be enough reason for me to supplement tbh.
I think you should tune that snare. Otherwise gold.
I'm probably too late to the game for this to be seen - but first, I appreciate your approach to all things. I am a Research Statistician and a PT friend of mine sent me your channel after I had a lumbrical injury.
Second, I don't think your concern with collagen v sugar is all that warranted. My understanding of these studies is that the collagen (or sugar) was purely supplemental and was meant to test if collagen itself was effective, not compare its effectiveness to other things. As in, if a person were to continue to eat exactly the same, would supplementing with collagen be beneficial? That seems like a worthwhile test as hopefully randomization in a large study would eliminate the variance of diet. However, I do completely agree with you that it would be important to know if the collagen supplement was beneficial because it was collagen, or if adding amino acids into the diet (via food or supplement) would be just as effective. I highlight this difference in study approach because my, albeit quick, survey of the literature on whey protein powder is that it is usually tested as a supplement to and not as a replacement for dietary protein.
I will say, I personally don't plan to use collagen supplement products. It appears that for overall health, getting nutrients from whole foods is better (or at least as good) as any sort of supplementation. I would rather make sure I am eating adequate protein than buying a collagen supplement for the reasons you mentioned at the beginning - it all gets broken down to the same building blocks anyway. One thing I have considered doing, both because it is delicious and just in case it makes a difference, is making homemade bone broth and drinking that more regularly.
Keep up the great videos!
Hi Jonathan, well said on both sides! Thanks for commenting and we're happy you found the channel! I understand your points and agree in the sense that it is not inherently bad what they did. I also like your idea of having a much larger study to help eliminate the diet variance factor. Good idea! The bigger overall issue for me is just that many of these collagen companies are using this research as a gold standard that their product is effective and should be used routinely. When, as you accurately stated, it is important to know if it is actually just because of the collagen, or just having more amino's / protein in their diet. Interesting idea on the bone broth, as well! I've never personally found any that I thought to be delicious hah! But, I haven't tried that many out there (and some of the better brands are seemingly quite expensive!). Anyway, thanks again for commenting!
Collagen is roughly 1/3 glycine, and glycine is great for sleep quality. That may contribute to the recovery effects. I take it at night for this reason, I get about an hour and a half more out of each day with the same feeling of rest.
I was not ready for how good that beat was going to be! Collagen!
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what a great overview! How about creatine? Would you guys influence for that stuff?
Working on a creatine vid! :)
Absolutely love this, especially the rap. So creative! Collagen messes with my sleep.
Iâd love to get Chris MasterJohn to weigh in on this since heâs got a lot to say about the necessity of dietary glycine
Oh strange that it messes with your sleep! Sleep is so important.
Welp, now I have that Collagen song stuck in my brain. And I ain't even complaining! Collageeen collageeeeen
haha glad you enjoyed! Emile has some real song writing talents ;)
MOAR RESEARCH VIDEOS
Would love to see the research repeated where collagen supplement is compared to protein shake + multivitamin. It's just a protein. We breaking down then re-build it. It can't be any better than a readily digested complete source of protein. ...and yeah... collagen supplement or a handful of gelatine based sweets??
Indeed not for me, as I am against avoidable harm inflicted on animals (i.e. indeed I am "vegan"). But I really appreciate your systematic and scientific method approach to analyzing all these issues: ommited variables bias, samples issues, reverse causality, etc. As a vegan and pure-math trained-then-tyurned-economist who teaches university economics and statistical methods who happens to ASLO love rock climbing and wants to improve, your insights and proper approach are totally amazing. Keep it coming. Best regards.
Thank you for the kind comment/feedback!
So collagen is probably not really helpful to build tissues on the short term... But do you think it is still worth taking it for long-term joint cartilage protection, as suggested at the end of the video? Or should one get enough amino acids/collagen from a diverse diet anyway? Thank you a lot for your amazing job, your videos are always comprehensive, funny and scientifically accurate!! And unlike collagen supplements, it's free :p
Hah that's true! Free! Well, aside from the occasional ads :)
I think long term a healthy diet, good sleep, a great training plan, avoiding overuse etc, that's your best bet. But as stated, make the decision that best suits you as an individual :) Thanks for the support!
Hey I looked for the song on Spotify but couldnât find itâŠ? đą
Loved the song, please release it as a singl
Iâve been taking physivantage since straining my A2 and I personally donât believe it made much difference to my healing but honestly I canât be sure either way.
Iâll probably not bother getting it again once Iâve finished the pack. I do eat a high protein/meat diet already though so maybe the extra collagen doesnât make much difference to me.
Yeah you're right, it can be really hard to tell! Thanks for sharing.
I liked the vid on the full scoop eat