The Enterprise vs the Excelsior: which was the better design?
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- čas přidán 3. 08. 2024
- ‘Star Trek III: The Search for Spock’ introduced us to the Excelsior. Its basic design reflected the legacy of the Enterprise: the saucer-shaped primary hull, connected to a cylindrical secondary hull by a dorsal, and from out of that secondary hull sprouted twin engine nacelles. Was it an improvement over the Constitution-class? Which one was the better design?
Music: ‘Glimpsing Infinity’, by Asher Fulero (CZcams Music Library).
Pixabay images: Engin Akyurt, Axonia, 12019, NoName, and Manuel.
#aesthetics #practicality #StarTrek - Zábava
Star Trek III gave us so many new ships compared to what we'd seen before, and the space station. I don't understand why it isn't rated higher
It followed Star Trek II.
Cuz it tries to do too much. Kill Kirk’s son and the Enterprise in a one-two punch like that, it just seems over the top. Meanwhile, narratively, he loses his son while saving his friend. Feels disjointed.
Narratively, I think it would have worked better to have Kirk have to sacrifice the Enterprise in order to save David or Spock (without David dying).
I loved III, and the Stealing the Enterprise scene is iconic.
Because the story wasn’t as strong. As well produced as a film as it was.
That space station was another work of art.
I personally prefer the Enterprise just from an aesthetic taste. But, the Excelsior makes more sense for certain engineering reasons.
But in all my years never drew the same comparison until I saw a comment about the TMP Enterprise being like a Pegasus. It clicked once I pictured it in my mind.
It’s true. The lines of the profile of the refit are certainly equestrian with the pylons being winglike. I like how the nacelles seem functional with a grill in the front to serve as an intake of sorts with the flux chillers not glowing all the time like later starship designs.
I think the Enterprise-A is the most beautiful starship I've ever laid eyes on. It's even more astonishing when you see the 5 pearl color in real life.
The refit's apparent impracticalities are what gives it such a winning design
More so than any other starship class, the _Excelsior_ really does look like a generational leap over her predecessor.
I think the Ambassador looks like a generational leap over the Excelsior as well
@@keyboardt8276 If they'd stuck with Probert's original design, perhaps; but the Ambassador as realised on screen really looks more like a chunky Constitution crossed with a baby Galaxy, it's almost a retro design that takes nothing from the Excelsior-class. It feels _conservative_ compared to the true, if you'll forgive the pun, "next generation-ness" of the Excelsior.
Also, if we look at the ship volumes, the Excelsior is a MASSIVE 4.1 times larger than a Constitution. The Ambassador is 2.9 times the volume of the Excelsior, and the Galaxy is 2 times the volume of the Ambassador... so in terms of size alone the Excelsior is still the largest generational leap.
if you use volume as an indication of advancement though, the Enterprise E would be a step backwards from the D since it's smaller. I don't think the Federation has had issues with building large ships since the 23rd century, they just don't have the need to most of the time. After all some 22nd century Vulcan cruisers were around 600m long and some pre-tos ships were larger than the TOS Enterprise.
@@keyboardt8276 I'm not using volume as an indication of advancement, hence the "also"; I'm using it as an one of the reasons why the Excelsior is relatively so impressive compared to its predecessor. Excelsiors are the first class of ship we see that have a volume of over 500,000m³ - they're the first genuinely large starship. A lot of ships we see in the 24th century - Intrepid, Steamrunner, Prometheus - are smaller. and the Excelsior is FAST. It's not a lumbering freighter. It's explicitly faster and better-armed than the Constitution class.
@@kasterborous1701I'm trying to say that size does not really factor into the impressiveness of a vessel though, and the Excelsior was likely not the largest ship in starfleet history when it launched; one of the largest but not the largest. If we expand our perspective to the ships of Federation member races, the Vulcans were fielding 600m long cruisers with a volume of ~1.4 million m^3 compared to the 900k m^3 of the Excelsior more than a hundred years before the Excelsior launched.
Well, given how long the basic Excelsior-Class frame served Starfleet, it's got to win out... 😁
The refit Enterprise Constitution class is, hands down, THE most elegant, quintessential Federation star ship ever put into my brain. I see everything else as a variant of it, based on it, or cobbled together from parts of it.
Nope.
I choose the Excelsior personally, not only because she’s bigger, don’t get me wrong, at 511 m long, she’s a chunker for the time. and she has far more internal volume for science laboratories and engineering workshops. But also she’s beautiful in her own way, and she re-invented the Warp scale, even though her great experiment was a bust. Post-refit to standard she was probably the fastest ship in the fleet. On the TNG Scale she has a Maximum Warp Factor of Warp 9.2 with a standard cruising speed of Warp 6. Not to mention aside from the 4 Torpedo tubes, fore and aft, she has 28 Phaser turrets arranged in 14 Banks, an upgrade from the Enterprise’s Twin Tubes and 16 turrets which are in 8 banks. She’s a beautiful design to behold in her own way that’s for certain.
Technically they’re both beautiful, but Excelsior wins out for me.
And if my Grandmother had wheels, she'd be a wagon.
The Connie refit is just pure beauty.
Can't we just call it a draw??? They are both such good representations of their particular aesthics that I really can't choose. I'd rather pick my favorite child!
A few things. The Constitution II Class to me is the most beautiful. The Excelsior was meant to be the “next” evolution, and, in the story, a little malevolent. She is still a great design however. Now, I like your new logo. And it’s nice to see Futura as the typeface.
Can’t explain why I enjoy these videos so much. But please keep making them. Love it. Also, love the Enterprise B refit much more than the original excelsior design. In a fight with Enterprise A, it’d be a draw for me. Looks much stronger with the expanded impulse engines and flared deflector area.
I actually don't like it at all. I like the sleek utalitarianist look of it. the sheer beauty of it. The B is just an Excelsior that get's additional spoilers and wider tires, it's a souped up coupé.
The same is probably true for the ridiculous 3-nacelle Galaxy class, but I give it a pass due to the inherent badassedness in the way it was introduced.
For me it has to be the Excelsior. Of all the Enterprise’s the -B & -C have always been my favorites even though they’ve received the least love over the years. For me the Excelsior wins on in universe reasons in addition to just personal preference. It is canon that the Constitution-Refit had a vertical warp core that extended into the neck section. The relative thinness of the neck makes this, to me, a bad design choice. Now granted it was a necessity due to the switch from the horizontal warp core used originally to the vertical used on the refit but the power source of any starship should always be in a well protected area. In addition the thinness of the nacelle pylons gives me pause. Now granted when it was being designed in the real world the designer could have had no idea how the special effects team were going to damage it in future movies. But we can see in Wrath of Khan that the Reliant’s phasers ripped the Enterprise apart when it had its shields down. If the Reliant had targeted one of the nacelle pylons, particularly at a point close to the hill when they are thinner, it would have been disastrous. A few well places phaser shots or a photon torpedo or two would have torn it clean off thus making escape at warp impossible. The Excelsior is a much more substantial design with pylons that are much shorter & closer to the hull. I do agree though that having the aft section be so thin for so long seems a bit odd. Making the bulk of the engineering section longer & the thin section shorter would have added more usable space for torpedos, cargo, deuterium storage, anything you want.
Enterprise all day long, it has been and always shall be, my favourite. I've come to like the Excelsior more and more over the years though, and from a practical perspective it wins.
One engineering conclusion that may be drawn from the apparent weak points designed-in is that the engineering required is so advanced as to *SEEM* to create weaknesses, but such do not actually exist. The inertial dampening, the structural integrity fields, the artificial gravity, external force shielding, etc. all working together to negate any apparent shortfalls... is how I've thought of it over the years. Great vid.
I come at this as a fan of both ships, and I grew up preferring the Excelsior because it was the "newer" ship and therefore more modern feeling. I didn't hold an attachment to the Constitution or variants and refits because I never really engaged with the TOS and original movie era until much later. As an 80's kid, I grew up with TNG and the Excelsior felt to me like a far better predecessor to the Galaxy class than the Constitution did.
In the past couple of years though, I've really come to appreciate the Constitution refit a lot more. As others have said, it has almost no bad angles and has a grace and elegance that a lot of successor Starfleet ships completely lack. Even the JJ versions don't hold the same simple elegance even when they tried to make it more curvy and swoopy.
The Excelsior looks great from pretty much only one angle, the side elevation. The long, low and sleek profile is fantastic, and I love the much longer nacelles. The severe angle of the saucer rim makes it feel sharp like it's piercing subspace. The sleek neck with the stacked-fin detail really contributes to the sleek lines. But when viewed from the ventral or dorsal angles, the design feels out of balance. The saucer looks out of proportion with the length of the engineering hull, and the nacelles look too close together for their length. The detailing on the otherwise featureless flat top deck of the engineering hull looks like an afterthought, to add greebling to the surface that would have otherwise been just flat hull paneling. Additionally, the warp nacelles lack a clear purpose in their design, they look like two flat slabs with an un-lit grille between them. They lack the Bussard scoops of literally every other Starfleet design and is something I think was only fixed with the Enterprise B subtype (which as pointed out, fixes some of the other issues with the original Excelsior lines.) Both the junction where the warp nacelle supports attach, and the shuttle bay feel tacked on as if afterthoughts, and make the shuttlebay feel like it would be far too small. The position of the Constitution's shuttle bay (both the original and refit versions) feels a lot more logical and useful, as they connect to the bulk of the engineering hull, and as we see in TMP, connect directly to what I assume are cargo bays.
Basically agreement here. Connie Refit is a much more attractive look. Excelsior is more practical based on it's interconnecting dorsal alone. It's almost not surprising as the Connie Refit was designed with art deco in mind while the Excelsior follows a more brutalist paradigm.
My choice is the Connie Refit by a wide margin. I like the Enterprise B modifications to the Excelsior quite a bit, but it's still not even close.
My choice is also the Connie Refit.
It’s definitely hard to pick. I love the TMP Enterprise, but I also love the Excelsior design.
It’s true that, when viewed directly from the front or top, Excelsior isn’t quite as pretty. Doesn’t suffer for angles in the same extent as the Galaxy class does though. And I do enjoy the black ribbed radiators/heat exchangers filling the neck, directly next to the warp core and expanding on Jefferies’ heat exchangers on the Connie Refit’s pylons.
Some of the straight lines do hurt it artistically, much as I prefer the curved secondary hull of the TMP/Phase-II design over the conical one from TOS. OTOH the long thin sleek secondary hull past the initial bulge has always appealed to me, as if they didn’t really need to fill up that space but required that distance for the nacelles and so they just built a 2-deck tall cargo and shuttle structure to fill out the room. I also appreciate that “pod” the nacelles connect to, because it simplifies the routing for the warp plasma - just run one most of the way, rather than two parallel lines.
But yeah, the aesthetics of the TMP Connie are much more art deco, down to the fins on the nacelles and the bussard collectors being based on a 1930s car bonnet. While the Excelsior is based on, as you say, late-70s early-80s clean lines. They just have very different priorities.
And I think that’s the most important thing, the level of variety it opened-up starship design to. Every speculative TOS era design is basically just a Connie remix. But the Excelsior said they can be much more different, while still following the same body plan.
Agreed. Constitution refit is prettier but because they did so much refitting, it's a worse ship than the original Constitution. Excelsior is all around a better ship.
I'm a big fan of the Excelsior design, though not the Enterprise B variation. In many ways I feel the Excelsior design is excessive here and there, but the Enterprise B variation just adds too many embellishments that reminds me of that '59 Cadillac you showed earlier.
You know, for the countless times in my life I've looked at something at different angles admiring it, I've never realized til now that I was basically trying to find aesthetic strong and weak spots by doing that. Kind of amazing.
The Galaxy Class is a beautiful design, but the "mouth" of the engineering section always was weird to me and I never liked that angle from below when I played with models as a kid. The Constitution II has almost no bad angles (unless viewed from the back slight above, imo). The Excelsior looks veeeeery elongated when viewed from the top, while interestingly from the side it is very balanced - it's a curios thing, really.
For me, its the catamaran Miranda Class. Tactically, all Starfleet saucer shapes are huge targets with thin necks and legs. Only makes sense that to streamline the design and get rid of the secondary hull, leaves you leaner and meaner. Miranda's got plenty of hardpoints (10) for weapons mounting, and when fitted with the roll-bar weapons/sensor pod, she's an over-gunned match for any vessel. She needs more and better sheilds though.
Only reason she got torn up in WoK was because it was in the script.
She's got 2 shuttle bays, only because her purpose is deep space exploration. I'd say her modern day mission equivalent would be a Destroyer. She's about the size of USS Voyager, but Voyager's laid-out more logically. Excelcior reminds me of a sailing schooner.
Miranda just looks more ready to squabble than Constutution, and Excelsior classes combined. Miranda's lay the smack down.
The Miranda-class is a good-looking design. If I had the option of any starship in 'Star Trek', my gaze would turn towards a Miranda (as long as it came with the roll-bar).
They got smacked down like flies during the dominion war
I always loved the look of the Excelsior
I remember when The Motion Picture first came out. On the one hand, I was struck by the sleek design of the refit. On the one hand, I was impressed with the sleek nature of the design. But on the other hand, that design also had a conventional approach that removed many of the non-Newtonian aspects of the original model. The nacelles were not only "50's retro" but they were against the TOS aesthetic of cylindrical nacelles (Klingons had thin nacelles and they were the bad guys.)
Excelsior has a different set of problems. It is too angled; too straight. Its "elegance" wouldn't be really appreciated until a later movie when Captain Sulu sat in the chair with a fancy teacup that looked straight out of the Titanic. I can almost feel I am channeling Scotty when I look at it. Like Kirk, Scotty looked at the Enterprise as a lady. The Excelsior just doesn't have that quality for her.
Finally, I have never heard a good explanation of why the ribbing on the structure that connects the two hulls. I can't help thinking "slinky" whenever I see it. Suddenly my mind takes the primary hull and it starts to wobble under the flexing of the slinky neck.
The ribbing? It’s for her pleasure.
I choose...
Option 3:
Getting upset at you for making me choose!
They're both just too awesome!
In lore the Constitution class was introduced into service in the 2240s and retired from service by end of the 23 century. Meanwhile the Excelsior class entered service in 2285 and served up to the end of the 24th century.
The Constitution class had a life time of roughly 50 years, the Excelsior class over 100. In reality military ships are designed with certain upgrade capabilities in terms of space and energy in mind. For example the current Arleigh Burke class destroyers of the US Navy reached their limit with the flight III upgrades. There will be no flight 4, instead the Navy will introduce the DDGX as replacement.
There were only 12 original Constitution class ships, on screen it is not once mentioned that there were more. We know of at least 28 named Excelsior class ships and then a lot of unnamed ones in TNG and DS9. We can assume that next to the Miranda the Excelsior was one of the most numerous designs.
From all that we can deduce that Starfleet saw more potential in the Excelsior than the Constitution.
Of course the real reason we see no Constitution class on screen other than the Enterprise after TOS was because the producers wanted to avoid another ship being mistaken for the Enterprise. Since the Excelsior never was a "hero" ship it got used all the time just like the Miranda.
And the reason we did see more than one Constitution in TOS is because they had only one model of Starfleet ship.
Having said that there is a destroyed secondary and primary hull of a Constitution class floating among the wrecks of Wolf 359 suggesting at least one Constitution class was still in service in 2366. The effects team actually used the destroyed Enterprise model from The Search for Spock movie for the scenes.
In Picard season 3 the Constitution class USS New Jersey is shown based at the Starfleet museum still in the original, unrefitted, state so there must have been more than the original 12 ships.
I like the refit, but the elegance of the TOS Enterprise is unmatched.
Agreed. The Desilu NBC TV Enterprise has been my obsession for well over 50 years. ♥️
…and I do mean the actual NBC physical model, not the CBS digital version.
Beautiful shots! To me, the Enterprise will always be the prettiest, with the Excelsior having a beauty and elegance of her own
Your videos are always a gem to watch.
Another real world video would be interesting to see, ala Falklands essay.
Personally, I was a little disappointed at the end of ST IV when they basically reused the refit model for the Enterprise A. I’d hoped that the next Enterprise would have had elements of both the Excelsior, the Refit and the Miranda.
Just imagine: the primary hull saucer would be larger but still with gentle slopes and a concave lower surface but with a more organic impulse deck and a larger bridge done. The connecting dorsal would be broader and more sculpted with a better blending in with the secondary hull below like in the D. As for the secondary hill, I’d have made it resemble the refit but make it longer and wider while still honoring the tapers and foregoing the drastic arch in the keel with flaring for a rear arc torpedo deck. For the pylons, I would have borrowed the sensibilities of the Miranda rollbar with phaser cannons at the right angle point in the rollbar. There should still be a rear ward sweep above that to the nacelles, which would have been very similar to the refit nacelles, though maybe thinner/more rectangular from the front.
The enterprise-G gave me appreciation for not just making ships bigger. The enterprise-A should have be the Constitution Mk III class with elements of the excelsior saucer style in a more compact constitution class size.
I just love the look of the Excelsior
Out of the 2 most beautiful starship designs its hard to make a decision, i love the connie cause of its clean retro look and those nacelle pilons are what mostly give it its amazing look, but the excelsior is just so, streamlined and stylish, ive always said it looks like its going at a million miles an hour even when sitting still
I grew up watching TOS in syndication in the 1970's and 80's and still love the original Constitution Class design. Now when the first Star Trek movie came out I really liked the newer refit. Between both the Enterprises it's hard for me to choose.
I think the Constitution refit looks more elegant while the Excelsior looks streamlined and built for speed. Speed was the general purpose for the Excelsior class. I don't know if transwarp in The Search for Spock was the same thing as the transwarp for Voyager, but the Excelsior was faster than the Enterprise. Just not when sabotaged.
I'd agree with your final analysis for pretty much the same reason.
Looking at these two, I'd say a grounded comparison would be
Enterprise = the Ford Mustang
Excelsior = the Ford Focus
"Excelsior!? Why would you want that bucket of bolts?
-a ship is a ship.
Aye sir, thy will be done."
Having served in the Submarine force, I prefer small ships where the small crew is more close knit, less military formality. This gives me a preference for the single Nacelle Destroyer. Axanar showed these ships doing nothing but dying well. This inspired me to write a spin off novel "Axanar: The Destroyers". It covers the workhorse duties of the Destroyer vs the sexy image of the capital ships. How in the early phase of the war, the Destroyers had to hold the line suffering emended casualties but since Destroyers were easy to build in large numbers and considered expendable, were able to do so at a high cost. How once the new Ares Class came on line, the Destroyers were relegated back to unsexy workhorse suites which were no less dangerous but not glamorous either
I love the Enterprise, but if I lived in that universe we saw on screen and could choose which ship I would like to try and get to serve on, it would have been the Excelsior. When I first saw it in Star Trek III, I really wanted to see it in action and start doing some of the things the Enterprise did. It was a real let down when they sabotaged it. At least we got to see it in action in Star Trek VI.
The refit Enterprise will always be my favorite. It's hard to top that design.
I've hated the 'Flying Bathtub' that is the USS Excelsior since I first saw it in STIII:TSFS in 1984. Constitution (and I'm talking the original TOS version) RULES OVER ALL! 🙂
Bro out here really summoning the Excelsior Mafia
I'm torn between the two, but the Khan era Enterprise is a sleeker design. They both look far better than the Enterprise D, which was a monstrosity. 😁
That opening of ST: Generations🔥🖖
Enterprise, by a mile, though I really do dig Excelsior. I can’t say exactly what I would change on Excelsior, but she needs a bit more refinement, here and there. I can’t say I appreciate Enterprise B, however. The flourishes on the nacelles were out of place. The secondary hull looked like a flying boat, not a starship. Finally, two of the comically-oversized impulses engines exhausted directly into the nacelles. Shaka, when the walls fell…
I really like the Star Trek III version of the Excelsior more than any other Starfleet ship. I think I appreciate its slight ungainliness - It's not really meant to be a hero ship in the sense that the relatively thin Constitution-class (The refit especially emphasizing straight edges over curved lines) being superseded by a much more substantial ship with the sort of curves and lines of an ocean liner, or the opera house in Sydney. It just has a very different sort of personality coming through in the design - A "Sad, proud, graceful creature" to borrow from Reginald Gardiner, as opposed to the Constitution's more energetic design.
No idea why I fixated on this one when I was younger, perhaps because it was just "different" and its lack of screen time fired the imagination more compared to the main hero ships of 'Trek, but I have a 1/1000th scale model as a desk lamp now, and one element that I never fully understood until having the thing in hand is just how LONG the ship is. Very effective for making it apparent to the audience that it's bigger than the 'connie, it's about the same width, but just goes on and on with those nacelles and tail section (Which, on my model, doesn't have the hood over the glass bubble shuttle bay thing) - Also probably a bit of Panama Canal effect with it needing to fit through the doors of Spacedock introduced in the same film.
Absolutely fab renders as always!
The Excelsior class gives me the sense of a ship designed to be a workhorse. The Constitution II is the elegant dancer or ice skater. The Excelsior looks like it was designed to take the heavy hits, regardless of the task she is performing. The Constitution II will always be the prettier of the two, for me, but when I want to get the job done I'll choose the Excelsior.
There are so many great features of both designs that I can't make up my mind. Aw, to hell with it. I love 'em both! 🖖😃👍
I choose the Enterprise refit over the Excelsior. As you said in the video, the over all design is balanced, where that really is not so with the Excelsior. I’ve long suspected that a good deal of the Excelsior was after thought. Derived from the Enterprise, with art deco throw in plus as said, more utilitarian or practical in design. Though again not so much. For me, why have the similar two hull design if you’re going to place the warp core in the neck and not in the second hull? What was the giant hole there supposed to be? What was the busy tail details? Were those actually torpedo tubes or were they phaser cannon as on the Reliant? Why so sloped a hanger bay door? How’s that opening? Why was the neck like that compared to the Enterprise? Why a huge impulse section? As fans, we can speculate near endlessly. But while I like the Excelsior, it did not ultimately work for me. Oh here’s a thought, the aft end of the Excelsior reminds me of the aft end of HMS Hood and other ships of that era. Perhaps it was meant to envoys that? One was designed by an artist, one by a model maker. You can tell.
Even though it was likely an accident of real-world filming choices (born of having a good quality Excelsior model to use, plus an unwillingness about - or prohibition against - using the refit Enterprise model), the long in-universe life of the Excelsior-class is a good argument for being the more practical (/durable/etc.) design.
It's a bit like picking between a Porche and a Mustang. First ones been around longer and retooled so much to be awesome but also been retooled so much it's hard to crawl down into one. The other is newer, easier to sit in, not as prestigious, and still fast as hell.
I love the refit but it has so many problems. It looks incredible, but when you stop and think about things, you have to scratch your head. There isn't the same problem with the Excelsior. While not as 'refined' as the Constitution refit, it came out of the gate pretty and was damn solid as a ship.
excelsior is a gorgeous design, and is one of, if not my top favorite, federation ship design.
Traits that every good Starfleet ship design should have (especially if the ship is expected to come into conflict).
Keep the nacelles away from the main hull, to avoid the risks of the immense magnetic fields they generate in use, as well as making it difficult for the matter collected from space and the antimatter housed in the secondary hull to enter into spontaneous and catastrophic contact.
Have the nacelles protected against a frontal attack or as much as possible with the primary hull without affecting its efficiency of collecting matter from space that will combine with anti-matter.
In both cases, both the Enterprise, especially in its refit (the original, you could say that it exposes its nacelles too much from the front, but it is more acceptable than other designs) and classes that imitate its design and proportions and the Excelsior cover and its subclasses, perfectly meet these "war" conditions, something that is seen again with the Sovereing class.
Attacking the nacelles from another angle in a combat where both ships are moving, is more complicated and it is expected that the captain will be able to give his frontal angle to the enemy at the moment of the most intense combat and above all, even if the Warp field is unstable in the event of warp speeds, a nacelle still provides enough matter to keep the systems in combat and avoids all the problems associated with being hit near the anti-matter containers housed in the secondary hull.
You could really analyze those three designs, Enterprise refit/Enterprise class, the Excelsior class and the Sovereing class without any problem, because all three are cut from almost the same pattern and each one learns from the lessons and weaknesses of the previous ones.
The art of creating ships that survive combat and are beautiful is as much an art as it is a science.
As a practical ship Excelsior class. Constitution is a flying work of art
Depending on one's 'POV' regarding Canon vs. Non Canon, the argument could be made that Enterprise and Excelsior are two different Types of Starships...
Me, I'm a product of the 70's so the go to sources back then were FASA and Mastercom Data Center. They classified Excelsior and her successor Ingram as "Space Control Ships", designed to be the lead ship of a Task Force with Avenger (Miranda) class Frigates and Constitution/Enterprise class Heavy Cruisers in support.
The FASA material is fascinating stuff, to be sure. There's a lot more Navy-inspired thought in it. I might explore it in more detail in a future video.
I like the TMP-era design aesthetic of Federation ships - there are plenty of good examples out there (including fan-made - have you seen that TMP Akira? 🤤) and the Excelsior-class is just *chef's kiss* - but I never really got on with the Constitution-II, mostly because the original Constitution is my absolute favourite. It sounds a bit "not *my* Enterprise"-y, but there it is. That said, the merging of elements from both designs in Discovery was perfectly done, and an instant love.
Plus I feel that it would have made more sense to keep the Enterprise as it was (or closer to it) and leave the TMP C-II for the Enterprise-A, rather than just being like "well, we have money now so...". Not really a retrofit / refit when it's a complete rebuild; they Ship of Theseus'd it. That's why I didn't care all that much about what happened to it in ST:III, because it's not the same ship and I felt little connection to it. Now if it had been OG Enterprise, or something more Phase II...
I choose the Enterprise growing up with it maybe, but I just love the look of it.
The Constitution II Class for me. But I still like the Excelsior class. It conveys sleekness and speed.
Enterprise is the benchmark for beauty & elegance.
The secondary hull on the Excelsior always bothered me since it seems like such a waste of space. I modeled it in Avorion with the thicker expansion and it looked good to me.
I'd still choose the Excelsior despite this; The thicker more practical nature of the ship in general, the straight lines, the impulse engines, the more spread out phasers call to me.
Both Excelsior and Enterprise has variant series of initiative to plus version to 32nd century.
@@linz8291 Yeah they seem to. They also don't appear to have random nonsensical holes sprawled out through their designs so a plus from me!
The excelsior is an upgraded constitution class, the constitution class was 30-40 years old. Even after major overhauls and refits.
With the Excelsior, a ship was needed that could handle the experimental TransWarp drive, something that ended up not working in Star Trek, but the theory was there, and with that, a new ship, that would be away from port for longer durations, and need more support craft, more crew, more capabilities, and this was a good opportunity to make a stronger looking ship, with that solid neck between the primary and secondary hulls. The long engines were to balance out the primary hull size, while being experimental at the same time. When the TransWarp idea failed, the Excelsior became a dreadnaught sized ship, next to the heavy cruiser size of the Constitution class. But like the Galaxy class, the Constitution class was great for 4 by 3 picture, but less so for widescreen. The Excelsior class never got to take pride of place on the big screen like the Sovereign class did in First Contact through to Nemesis, and both these ships fitted better for wide screen. Shame the producers couldn't stop changing the details of the Enterprise E from movie to movie.
The Excelsior class stayed in service for over a 100 years and they made a lot of them, the Constitution/refit no where near as long and they made far fewer.
Both are good looking designs.
I remember instantly disliking the Excelsior when I first saw it. I’m not sure why, but it may be because it seemed too long for its height compared to most other Star Trek ships. Of course, it has grown on me some since then.
This was my exact experience. At first I didn't like the Excelsior. But I realized later that was more due to her being "the enemy" ship and direct competitor rather than a progression, heir and fellow ship of the line. By the time of Undiscovered Country I LOVED her and have ever since. Again - I think it was in no small part because she was now Captain Sulu's ship and no longer the "enemy" but a trusted friend.
Though I respect the Excelsior, it's design was definitely leaps ahead - however I will always have a place in my heart for the Enterprise. The refit will always be my number 1 prefered starship as that was my ship growing up. Now, it we could somehow manage to get the holodeck from the Enterprise D on the refit it would be perfect.
I would choose the Excelsior class. The Connie's neck is just a structural weakpoint. Then they put the warp core through it. The Excelsior is just more robust and struxturally sound (save the thin aft secpndary hull section.) Overall the design of the excelsior class is just better from a practical standpoint. It puts style second (while still being stylish) and practicality first.
The constitution was designed for exploration.
The Excelsior seems optimized for battle, minimizing critical attack surfaces like the pylons and reinforcing the neck of the ship.
Gotta be honest. I've always loved the Excelscior class. As for which is "better" they both are ships of their time.
The refit enterprise from the original motion picture is the most beautiful of all the Star Trek ships IMHO.
The Connie 1&2, The Miranda and The Excelsior, The Three most beautiful Lasses to Grace the Stars.
While I will always admit that the Enterprise is a far more iconic design, and rightfully so, I've always thought if I were to captain a starship, it would be an Excelsior class, specifically the refit/B variant, but with the original paint scheme.
Easy answer Seeing as we saw plenty of Excelsior class Starships still in service in the 24th century and NONE of the Constitution class refits it would be fair to say the Excelsior's were a better designed ship to still remain in service for so long.
Great video
I always thought that having the Excelsior's nacelles attached by a pod was good engineering design; the ship was designed to be a Transwarp development ship, so it's logical for as much of the engineering section to be as swappable as possible. This would effectively make the nacelles independent - especially if transwarp doesn't rely on an intermix chamber that's shared with the impulse engines.
Oh, and if we're voting? Excelsior. I love the Enterprise dearly, but when we saw the Excelsior in STiii and it was presented as "the fuure", I bought into that and still do. I have an Eaglemoss Enterprise-A on my desk in my office, but I have an XL Excelsior.
I have to vote for the refit Enterprise, but the Excelsior holds a special spot in the hearts of fans.
I have always felt the refit Enterprise evoked a pegasus with the engine nacels as wings. The shape of the secondary hull is also very equine.
Excelsior! Definitely.
Don’t think it was mentioned but the Excelsior design was IIRC one of the original Enterprise redesigns for ST:TMP but while “nice” was considered too different. Honestly, as time goes on I find I love the designs of almost everything in TOS better, there’s a magic there that just got lost over time.
A thought. I want to use the Dodge Charger as my analogy. The 1966-67 Dodge Charger is the original design to bear the name and be put into service, making it (in this analogy) the original 1960's TV star Trek Constitution class. I think this is a fair comparison, because the refit - introduced in The Motion Picture, is widely viewed as superior and the more aesthetically pleasing expression of the configuration. The second generation of the Dodge Charger introduced in 1968 is likewise widely viewed as the most iconic - and most desirable - version of the car to bear the name "Charger". in 1969 the grille was divided down the center, and the tail panel and tail lights were redesigned. In 1970, outwardly bulging side scoop things were added to the doors, but the main design of the car was largely unchanged from 1968-1970. This is comparable to all the tweaks and slight differences made to the refit Enterprise, and its successor, NCC-1701-A. The ship and car designs that followed are arguably going in the "wrong" direction, at least aesthetically. I won't even bother comparing things like the Enterprise-F to the abomination called the "Dodge Charger" in the 1980's, but you get the idea...
Interesting - I didn't know that.
The Refit-Enterprise is the quintessential Trek starship design.
From an aesthetic point of view, The re-designed Enterprise is more pleasing to the eye, The Excelsior seems clunky. But the Excelsior is the new design and from an engineering point of view a better ship. Over time I mellowed to the Excelsior and like it better over many newer designs. If I were a Captain and given a choice over the two designs to be its commander, I think I would chose an Excelsior Class ship, with all the latest upgrades off course like the Lakota!!
The Enterprise is more photo genic but the Excelsior is an advancement as it was meant to be over the Enterprise, as was the Ambassador and Galaxy Class ships.
Excelsior the best designed ship in Star Trek. 100 years later and it's still a potent ship when upgraded. The original design (not the Enterprise B varient) was beautiful, it had better weapons and shields then the Constitution and was larger so it could carry more officers and supplies.
For me, it would have to be the Excelsior MKII, AKA the Enterprise-B. I find the look overall far more ballanced, with the addition of the extra Impulse Engines, flares on the secondary hull, and the tid-bits on the nacelles making for a lot more pleasant a ship to look at. I love the Conni-2 (have since I was a kid), but if I had to captain one, it'd be the MK2 Excelsior
It's probably a good thing that you were only looking at design and not in universe capabilities. The Enterprise refit was just not even in the same weight class as the Excelsior class. The Excelsior was designed to directly counter the D7 and subsequent updated or new designs of the Klingons. Head to head the Excelsior had 3 times the fire power and far better deflector shields. A D7 had no chance on its own vs the Excelsior.
I personally prefer the Enterprise. Whether in her original TOS-configuration or her TMP-refit design, there isn't a single bad angle to be seen and she is so beautiful and easy on the eyes. I've heard the Enterprise described with her swept back pylons when viewed from a rear angle to be that of an elegant bird; a comment that has stuck with me when I've seen any TNG-film era designs for the Enterprise-E where they tried to incorporate the pylon shape from the Enterprise-D onto the 1701-E, it altered her look from an elegant bird to that of a grotesque turkey, which is pretty much my thoughts on the Kelvin Universe Enterprise-A.
As for the Excelsior, I don't dislike the design, it just doesn't wow me. It sure does look practical, but it's lacking in that sense of elegance that the refit has. To me, a much better Excelsior-type design would be the Sovereign Class Enterprise-E.
I ♥the Enterprise😍
The better VISUAL design for me is the Enterprise. It looks great from every single angle. Excelsior looks great from most angles, but not all. However my visual preferences aside, I remain aware that the Excelsior is the more powerful, capable vessel.
I think the two newest Redesigns (excluding some of the STO extremes) are an improvement to the appearance of the Excelsior design template overall.
I guess I like the TOS Enterprise best I would have said the refit, but I've grown to dislike the overly thick spars and the torpedo launchers over time.
Excelsior to be honest wouldn't even be in my top 40 Starships to be kinda brutal about it. I even prefer the rushed Enterprise C over the Excelsior.
As for design era preference.. From Voyager to First Contact is my fave design era.
I always thought that the ends of the nacelles looked like the bell bottom pants of the monster maroon uniforms.
I'm a D fan but the A/TOS-refit is a very close second. Excelsior third.
Bonjour merci pour cette vidéo. L excelsior est mon vaisseau préféré. Cordialement. Pg
In my opinion, l like the Excelsior class ship. It looks more armor plated. All new ships designed for the future should be more armor plated looking .
It's a dangerous business, space travel.
Connie is more elegant, Excelsior is more robust.
I think you are right. I dont see a Conny refit surviving that Praxis shock wave.
I have always preferred the Refit Constitution Class over any other starship.
Matt Jeffries got it right the first time with the TOS design. Lay a nautiloid Fibonacci spiral down over the design and you’ll also discover Jeffries' artistic brilliance.
Franz Joseph was smart enough to go with Jeffries’ concept of modularity to create the scout, the destroyer and the tug; he blundered in redesigning the primary hull of the dreadnought rather than maintaining the concept.
The TMP design blundered in multiple respects and began the god-awful tyranny of kit-bashing model makers and style-over-function art-directors putting out whatever they thought looked good. The TMP design subtly disturbed several dimensions and threw off the visual balance of the design. The primary and secondary hulls are thicker and more rounded, and the dorsal has gone from elegant to blocky, not least for the clunky strap-on torpedo bay that one suspects was originally supposed to be at the front of of the “deckhouse” on the underside of the primary hull given its elongated aspect. The pylons supporting the nacelles are too long at the top, having the visual effect of foreshortening the nacelles. Even the nacelles look less clean with their uneven dimensions and rounded protrusions, especially at the junction with the pylons.
The net result is that whole the TMP design was momentarily exciting and “sporty” if shot from the right “beauty shot” angles…but over time, and on closer examination, it just looks “pudgy.”
The Reliant, from the next film, looks like exactly what it is: a kit-bash, emphasized most distinctly by the idiotic “spoiler-" or "roll-bar"-mounted torpedo bay.
Excelsior also looks exactly like what it is: an art project gone awry that gets everything about Jeffries’ original design that went right…exactly wrong. The primary hull is thick and heavy; its edge is droopy and down-turned rather than having the hard chine at the upper edge. The bridge structure is flattened and suppressed; the impulse engines are blocky and destroy the lines of the primary hull. The dorsal is an inelegant brick; everything about the secondary hull is exaggerated and senseless. The pylons are inelegant and the nacelles look like excessively long Airstreams-as-rail-cars overly lit with neon.
Excelsior is inelegant and ugly, and one suspects that accounts for the lingering of the TMP design into later productions more than anything else. The 1701-D made everything even worse with its broad oblate primary hull and senselessly curved pylons. Voyager then departed the supposed explanation for the 1701-D in its elongated oblateness, and worse, stunted the nacelles and pointlessly made them mobile. NX-01 has its stupidly separate impulse engine module which is as senseless as Reliant's spoiler or roll-bar.
Discovery is a revisit of old concept art that was rejected for a reason.
The SNW design corrects some of the mistakes of the TMP design…but the doubled pylons while being more pleasingly proportioned…make no sense.
If you're going to have a spaceship based franchise…have a unifying vision, hire a naval architect as a consultant and listen to them, and tell the overly kit-bashy model-makers and overly stylistic directors and art-directors "No!" Mat Jeffries may have made an iconic work of art…but he was an aviation engineer first.
I've been a fan of Star Trek since the very beginning, from TOS, and since then that always seen the Starfleet designs as odd...
Love the federation ships , hate to work on one though lights are that bright you might as well be blind "couldn't see a dam thing !!", as far as the best ship ever built ? that would be the Sovereign class hands down elegant & enough fire power to take down a Borg Cube if you know what your doing .
I do like the Sovereign-class. It is the Porsche to the Galaxy-class's Cadillac.
what get's me is there are plenty of other Sovereign class around I would have appreciated to see more of this very cool ship in the right hands this ship is lethal , now who ever that is would be up to Star fleet , with the Borg gone maybe time to head back to the Delta Quadrant. @@WeTravelbyNight
The Excelsior has a little of the pegasus, but more to me evokes the 80s philosophy of bigger/more powerful. She has a bigger, more beefy neck. She has longer, more powerful engines. Still, because she has that very elegant saucer and secondary hull, she's still sexy.
Excelsior from Lower decks addresses a few issues of the original Excelsior
Don’t forget integrity fields. Pylons can be thin with integrity fields!
I admit that I forget about those.
The Excelsior is so much better in nearly every way, literally the only down side I can think of is that the nacelles are thinner than the Constitution's. Aesthetically the Excelsior imo wins too, especially the refit..