Interesting testing, the large type filter that goes over all four trumpets with a back plate would be interesting as a reference. From other peoples testing that seems to be the least power robbing of the direct filters. Or an air box with a remote mounted larger filter.
Interesting test, thanks for it. I would say from experience, the double socks help not only because of the radius, but the volume inside the filter. Seems 3-4 times more vs. the single one.
It would be interesting to fit a boss to one of the trumpets and then use a manometer to measure to pressure differential between the inlet and the external of the filter/air box. As this point is pre the Venturi you’d be looking for the lowest differential pressure, which will show the least resistance/ highest potential flow on the inlet.
@@PenguinMotors no it won’t. The reason I suggested this was to ascertain the best filter flow wise. The lower the pressure drop the less restrictive the filter is, and therefore the best potential flow. I’m coming at this from my background, which is a design engineer specialising in material separation and material transport using air based systems so constantly working with laminate flow, frictional losses, capture and transport velocities, pressure drops, reduction of vena constricta etc.
Yes i understand what you are saying, but engine induction systems are about far more than just flow, air is not just moving in one continual direction or speed, its moving in pulses, in and also out. induction length ram pipe length and shape are more important than simple flow numbers suggest
Good video. So next time an ITG foam filter? Or the K&N large dcoe filter. And maybe an exhaust swap after this. A suitable 4-1 for testing with that cam. Maybe some ingnition. / cam timing adjustments by that?
Great video Graham!! I've always had the feeling that my 205 Rallye engine always ran better with the ram pipes with no filter at all or anything else, even that standard black airbox cover with a straight pipe to the front cold air intake, or without anything else, doesn't seem to work as well as nothing at all. Now I'm running the engine with a full ITG filter covering the four ram pipes, and the feeling is almost the same as running with no filter, I actually couldn't tell if there's any difference, maybe you should do this test in your next videos.
@@PenguinMotors ok, so the problem with these individual filters, like you've explained, is more that the ram pipes are not working properly due to having some restriction around the inlet outline, than the type of foam/brand, and maybe we would have the same problem with other foams than Ramair, such as ITG, Pipercross, etc, being individual.
Another great video as usual I read a long time ago about those filter socks & the tea strainers , looking forward to the k&n test cuz that’s my last hope for running filters but demon tweeks used to sell an air box with a huge opening I’m sorry I didn’t buy at the time cuz those things cost a fortune now, will have to fabricate my own, keep up the good work 👍🏾
Would be very interesting to see a plenum box with a remote large paper filter. Nice video, thanks! Was a bigger difference between open and twin filters than I thought it would be.
Paper filters are good at cleaning the air but once in use they become less effective at flowing air as they accumulate dirt, which happens all too quickly
And I would like to see that 😊 In Sweden there is poor man's rallycross called folkrace. Everyone's is running weber 45 dcoe without filter. Gravel tracks so after one heat the engine can have eaten sand and gravel. The extra power gain from no filter cannot be worth the shortened engine life?
@@PenguinMotorsIts not too difficult to achieve being, around 1-1.5x the engine capacity. Whats important is the flow within the plenum and the entry into the runners. Too many air boxes on a N/A motor have the rams too close to the outer face of the air box. The circuit racers all now use plenum boxes as a matter of course
@@karlvestgote7658 Filters such as K&N can actually improve the horse power by smoothing the flow into the carb, even when compared to an airbox, there are dyno tests that prove it and its no coincidence that F1 teams all now use filters and they are always looking for more power and can't afford to lose it. A shortened engine life manifests itself as a loss of power that can be quite dramatic. When do you rebuild the engine, when its 5 or10 or 20% down on power?. If you can last a season with 98% of the power that you started it with, all the better.
I note that you didn't test a K&N Filter set that has often proved to actually add power, principally due to evening out the flow and getting rid of the turbulence. The K&Ns also provide the cleanest air to the engine. The tea strainer filters(??) will restrict the air flow mainly because their free area is a woefully small proportion of the throat size of the carb, probably around 15%. The foam air filters, whilst they stop the rocks don't filter out most of the harmful dust. The problem with dyno tests like this is that they don't account for the under bonnet turbulence that occurs that will affect the flow into the carb, this is one of the reasons why trumpets are essential but even they have reduced effectiveness in the open windy space of an engine bay and this is why an air filter or an air box is essential to calm the air down.
Really good test, I thought/hoped the twin socks would be the best of the filters - I've got some on my old, tuned motorcycle, they worked better than the singles. Did the a/f alter a fair bit with the different filters ?
If no3 is down on compression on could that cause no2 to run richer due to its greater ability to draw in the air fuel mixture.. My 2.0 pinto has 195 on 1. 190 on 2. 125 on 3. 185 on 4. It keeps fouling no2 plug, but runs well.
one cylinders compression will have little to no effect on the AFR of the other cylinders. if you are fouling plugs most likely its going to have a piston/ring issue and will be burning oil, 190psi is a lot of cylinder compression especially if you have cast pistons, your low compression on no3 is enough to say its time to take it apart
@@PenguinMotors so even though it's got good compression the oil ring could be letting oil by... Didn't think of that.. I'm planning a rework soon, already got some plus 1mm pistons, just looking for a block. (I want to swap 1 for another so it's not off the road for as long)
except for certain capacity classes in racing its almost pointless, 2.0 will always make more power and torque, so unless you want to pay me to build one its highly unlikely
i didnt mention top end power! A the end of the day, not every combination behaves exactly the same, but you have to think that whoever designed the weber trumpets knew something. from what i have seen a simple flare works better in most cases through most of the rev range. But if you want to send me some full radius trumpets i can always do a test
@@PenguinMotorsif designed correctly radii onto a flat full width backing plate across all trumpets should help as you reduce the Vena Contracta within the trumpet, which in turn reduces the pressure and therefore theoretical peak flow. This will also give a more uniform velocity within the inlet pre Venturi
My guess would be that the K&Ns would flow slightly more but in any case they would have superior cleaning ability. Its no coincidence that K&Ns are used by F1 teams as well as for off-road desert racing, for which they were first developed
Oh! A cliffhanger we need k&n comparison 👍
As always great back to back realworld testing , thanks Graham
Interesting testing, the large type filter that goes over all four trumpets with a back plate would be interesting as a reference. From other peoples testing that seems to be the least power robbing of the direct filters. Or an air box with a remote mounted larger filter.
At this power level large sausage filters won’t effect power
i love the strainers, they just about stop bees cat and wasps. but sound better, my opinion, love the episodes
Interesting test, thanks for it. I would say from experience, the double socks help not only because of the radius, but the volume inside the filter. Seems 3-4 times more vs. the single one.
It would be interesting to fit a boss to one of the trumpets and then use a manometer to measure to pressure differential between the inlet and the external of the filter/air box. As this point is pre the Venturi you’d be looking for the lowest differential pressure, which will show the least resistance/ highest potential flow on the inlet.
yes, although there is far more to it than just pressure drop, pressure wont change if you alter ram pipe length by an inch but power delievery will
@@PenguinMotors no it won’t. The reason I suggested this was to ascertain the best filter flow wise. The lower the pressure drop the less restrictive the filter is, and therefore the best potential flow.
I’m coming at this from my background, which is a design engineer specialising in material separation and material transport using air based systems so constantly working with laminate flow, frictional losses, capture and transport velocities, pressure drops, reduction of vena constricta etc.
Yes i understand what you are saying, but engine induction systems are about far more than just flow, air is not just moving in one continual direction or speed, its moving in pulses, in and also out. induction length ram pipe length and shape are more important than simple flow numbers suggest
@@PenguinMotors agreed, smooth flow, velocity and lack of surface detachment are equally important.
Aaand i shall be removing my tea strainers! Thanks Graham!
Tea strainers don't filter and they restrict flow, the only reason to use them is on a show car for aesthetics
Interesting test,just bought some twin ramair socks for my 1700 xflow,I’ll stand a few horsepower loss to prolong the life of the engine,great work👍👍
i tested those same twin socks on a 130bhp x/flow. power loss was minimal 1-1.5 bhp from memory
Good video. So next time an ITG foam filter? Or the K&N large dcoe filter. And maybe an exhaust swap after this. A suitable 4-1 for testing with that cam.
Maybe some ingnition. / cam timing adjustments by that?
nice ideas, but i can only test what people are willing to lend or donate parts wise. All this testing malarky costs me an absolute fortune
Great video Graham!! I've always had the feeling that my 205 Rallye engine always ran better with the ram pipes with no filter at all or anything else, even that standard black airbox cover with a straight pipe to the front cold air intake, or without anything else, doesn't seem to work as well as nothing at all. Now I'm running the engine with a full ITG filter covering the four ram pipes, and the feeling is almost the same as running with no filter, I actually couldn't tell if there's any difference, maybe you should do this test in your next videos.
I have run engines with big ITG sausage filters, power is same as open intake
@@PenguinMotors ok, so the problem with these individual filters, like you've explained, is more that the ram pipes are not working properly due to having some restriction around the inlet outline, than the type of foam/brand, and maybe we would have the same problem with other foams than Ramair, such as ITG, Pipercross, etc, being individual.
Another great video as usual I read a long time ago about those filter socks & the tea strainers , looking forward to the k&n test cuz that’s my last hope for running filters but demon tweeks used to sell an air box with a huge opening I’m sorry I didn’t buy at the time cuz those things cost a fortune now, will have to fabricate my own, keep up the good work 👍🏾
Need an airbox comparison!
Pretty much as I expected, the twin filter has a larger area so this may also account for the better numbers
love these test grant , BACK TO BACK now better show with the result`s in front of you . that was a bit of a shock to me though, keep the vid`s coming
Would be very interesting to see a plenum box with a remote large paper filter.
Nice video, thanks! Was a bigger difference between open and twin filters than I thought it would be.
Paper filters are good at cleaning the air but once in use they become less effective at flowing air as they accumulate dirt, which happens all too quickly
Plenum boxes almost always hurt power because it’s rare you can make them big enough
And I would like to see that 😊
In Sweden there is poor man's rallycross called folkrace. Everyone's is running weber 45 dcoe without filter. Gravel tracks so after one heat the engine can have eaten sand and gravel.
The extra power gain from no filter cannot be worth the shortened engine life?
@@PenguinMotorsIts not too difficult to achieve being, around 1-1.5x the engine capacity. Whats important is the flow within the plenum and the entry into the runners. Too many air boxes on a N/A motor have the rams too close to the outer face of the air box. The circuit racers all now use plenum boxes as a matter of course
@@karlvestgote7658 Filters such as K&N can actually improve the horse power by smoothing the flow into the carb, even when compared to an airbox, there are dyno tests that prove it and its no coincidence that F1 teams all now use filters and they are always looking for more power and can't afford to lose it. A shortened engine life manifests itself as a loss of power that can be quite dramatic. When do you rebuild the engine, when its 5 or10 or 20% down on power?. If you can last a season with 98% of the power that you started it with, all the better.
this is what utube is for...
k+n next if you can, + how about a plenum with an airfilter on the end...
keep em coming
Hi , nice test, If space under the bonet permits, my money is on an airbox with a volume of about 4 L and a very large surface filter area. Thanks
I note that you didn't test a K&N Filter set that has often proved to actually add power, principally due to evening out the flow and getting rid of the turbulence. The K&Ns also provide the cleanest air to the engine.
The tea strainer filters(??) will restrict the air flow mainly because their free area is a woefully small proportion of the throat size of the carb, probably around 15%. The foam air filters, whilst they stop the rocks don't filter out most of the harmful dust.
The problem with dyno tests like this is that they don't account for the under bonnet turbulence that occurs that will affect the flow into the carb, this is one of the reasons why trumpets are essential but even they have reduced effectiveness in the open windy space of an engine bay and this is why an air filter or an air box is essential to calm the air down.
I'm guessing the twin socks had some air storage between runners, which helped compared to single filters.
Really good test, I thought/hoped the twin socks would be the best of the filters - I've got some on my old, tuned motorcycle, they worked better than the singles. Did the a/f alter a fair bit with the different filters ?
If no3 is down on compression on could that cause no2 to run richer due to its greater ability to draw in the air fuel mixture..
My 2.0 pinto has 195 on 1. 190 on 2. 125 on 3. 185 on 4.
It keeps fouling no2 plug, but runs well.
one cylinders compression will have little to no effect on the AFR of the other cylinders. if you are fouling plugs most likely its going to have a piston/ring issue and will be burning oil, 190psi is a lot of cylinder compression especially if you have cast pistons, your low compression on no3 is enough to say its time to take it apart
@@PenguinMotors so even though it's got good compression the oil ring could be letting oil by... Didn't think of that..
I'm planning a rework soon, already got some plus 1mm pistons, just looking for a block. (I want to swap 1 for another so it's not off the road for as long)
I notice you keep the jet covers off the carbs while running. Does this affect the A/F ratio?
No it doesn’t
👍👍👍👍👍
Is it possible to build a cheap high revving 1600 Pinto please
Yes, it's called a Cross Flow
except for certain capacity classes in racing its almost pointless, 2.0 will always make more power and torque, so unless you want to pay me to build one its highly unlikely
Did the filters that lost the most power affect the mixture/lambda readings ? I'm assuming they went rich ? Thus making less power
Not enough of a difference to make a noticeable AFR change,
Full radius ram pipes will pick up some horses too how about doing that ?
from testing that both Dave Walker and i have done full radius ram pipes will NOT pick up power
@@PenguinMotors have you read David Vizards findings on full radius rampipes ? Top line power figures aren’t everything as you well know 👍
i didnt mention top end power! A the end of the day, not every combination behaves exactly the same, but you have to think that whoever designed the weber trumpets knew something. from what i have seen a simple flare works better in most cases through most of the rev range. But if you want to send me some full radius trumpets i can always do a test
@@PenguinMotorsif designed correctly radii onto a flat full width backing plate across all trumpets should help as you reduce the Vena Contracta within the trumpet, which in turn reduces the pressure and therefore theoretical peak flow. This will also give a more uniform velocity within the inlet pre Venturi
K&N cotton gauze v Piper cross PX600 sausage filter 😄
My guess would be that the K&Ns would flow slightly more but in any case they would have superior cleaning ability. Its no coincidence that K&Ns are used by F1 teams as well as for off-road desert racing, for which they were first developed