State of the A&P Industry and Solutions For Airplane Mechanic Pipeline - InTheHangar
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- čas přidán 3. 10. 2022
- (Please Subscribe!) Dan and Christy talk with Geoff Camp, who works for the State of Oklahoma with the responsibility to implements plans to increase the pipeline of the STEM workforce, especially airplane mechanics.
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I did 50 years as an A&P starting in GA as an apprentice and eventually working 34 years for a major airline. In the late 80's there was plenty of airline work and it was a decent living but relentlessly, over the years they continued to outsource the work. First to domestic repair stations, which use unlicensed workers overseen by a single licensed A&P and eventually to overseas repair stations. The airlines spent tons of money lobbying to get this situation because 30 years ago it was not allowed. On top of that they kept whittling away at the labor contracts with B-scale wages and degraded benefits to where it is not so much a lack of personnel but rather the fact that a person can't afford to live in the area on the wages offered. So, they brought it on themselves. As for GA, it's not just mechanics, there is a general disinterest in aviation overall in the gen-x and millennial generations compared to the boomers. Every guy you meet who has the "rode my bicycle out to the airport and mowed grass for lessons" story is a grey bearded old codger like me and that's the group where most of the GA mechanics came from.
Solution? Maybe apprentice or mentorship programs so a guy or gal doesn't have to spend $50,000 to get a license and then have to work seven years on an insulting B-scale wage they can't live on.
Best aviation comment I have ever read. I graduated Spartan's A&P course in Tulsa in 1965 and retired from the airlines in 2009. The disinterest in aviation that you mention is real. I believe it is partly because the young have come to think that getting your hands dirty at work is somehow degrading. Well, one of the people in my class at Spartan eventually went on to be VP of Maintenance and Engineering at an airline. A solid technical education, such as that required for an A&P license, can open doors to incredible opportunity during the present shortage of skilled workers. Medical equipment and imaging, energy, construction, manufacturing and other fields are eager to find employees with technical skills. The sky is the limit.
Hopefully you did 50 years willingly. There are issues with the A&P craft not taking care of mechanics. For instance United taking thousands of mechanics retirement years before their time to retire.
100% agree I’m currently getting my A&P and people are paying anywhere from 22 a hour (GE engine manufacturing plant) to as high as 43 a hour starting (constant aviation AOG). Don’t get my wrong 43 a hour is great but is AOG. Id say the average that I’ve seen has been high 20s. And a lot of those 35+ a hour are very hard to find.
Non-practicing A&P here, I worked under my A&P for ten years before realizing there was no path to the income I was looking for.
When any auto mechanic can make more than you can, while you are signing to assume liability on everything you touch. Not knocking auto mechs. I do my fair share of it myself !
I just graduated from A&P school, and will be starting my career next week!
I am in an A&P program right now. I have been recruited over 20 times in the last 2 months. The industry is starving for A&P's. I hope that the pay starts to reflect that soon. Thanks for the great interview!
I looked into it and was convinced I would have a long list of suitors.....none of them willing to pay enough to justify the cost and time it takes to become an A&P.
The pay is still low, considering Costco pays 20+/hr. If there is a "real" shortage, the pay should show it considering we require school and testing.
Mike Patey doesn't have a college degree. He is a self taught engineer. It's possible.
I am a trade school teacher, and I have been saying the same message for years. I teach at a machinist trade and we are experiencing a major shortage in our industry as well.
High schools are limiting our youth of freedom of choice, career happyness and quality of life.
Our corporate masters want children to be educated to the point that they can make minimum wage at McDonald's, and no more. A real education is a danger to their hegemony.
Great episode Dan and Christy.
I need to debunk one of your statements Christy,
1. You do not need to go to a technical college or program to get an A&P, I got my training in the Navy and with my time in service I was able to get signed off by the FAA to take my General and Airframe exam.
2. You do NOT need a degree to be an engineer. After working for over 20 years as an Airframe/Sheetmetal Mechanic I was able to transfer into the engineering department of the company I worked for at the time, that was 10 years ago.
Great episode.
Great interview!
Good commentary. I paid my way through a Dallas based A&P school in the late 80's and received my ticket in about 91. The job market in aviation was really tough then and unfortunatly I had to get out and move to another industry as I had a family to support. Today would be a great time to get in, and young folks can do it for resonable education costs compared to a 4 year degree. There is NOTHING wrong with a technical degree or skill and those are the people who keep this world moving. Over the years I've only used my certificate to allow me to work as a volunteer on warbirds, but love doing it. Who knows, an older guy like me could probably get a job in this market!
The biggest problem is our school systems! The took all the thinking classes away from the student body. they did away with the shop classes. I learned more in Metal shop and drafting and machine then I did in all of the other classes. And I graduated from A&P school in 1973!
They turned high school into teenage daycare decades ago. You don't learn anything past middle school anymore. The state has to pay to put you through high school. You have to pay the state to go to college, even community college.
Excellent episode Dan and Christy, thank you. Great to hear states are taking notice and trying to do something about the problem. Great interview for sure. Also noticed the Jimmy photobomb at the end. 🤣 Keep up the excellent work as always. Safe skies 🤘🇺🇸🛩️
Great topic. I got super lucky in my higher education and managed to get it done before the drastic cost increases so I arrived at the other end without any college debt.
The landscape has certainly changed over the past years. I now STRONGLY advocate for trade schools like A&P. It’s a shorter duration of school with better and more stable pay post education. And if you want to actually get a degree after that, you’re far better positioned to pay as you go vs saddling yourself with massive debt.
The other part I think folks miss is you don’t have to do it forever and/or it shouldn’t be your life. You should work to live. Not live to work. And so much of a four year degree revolves around your life being work.
Hello from Minnesota! Really fantastic episode! College isn't for everyone. Oklahoma has it figured out! I wish Minnesota would figure it out too!
Any FAA license is just a license to learn! We have to stay up on all new advances! and adjust our work loads around them!
Dude when I first graduated a+p school, there were guys taking jobs that literally paid less than working at Home Depot to sign their life away working on a Cherokee or 172. I’m not saying that’s the only metric, but it’s one of them.
This past March, my airplane was grounded because the engine decided to go into the glitter manufacturing business. In June, my shop finally had room in their schedule to pull the engine and ship it off to the overhaul shop. About five weeks later, the engine was back.
Only last week have they started work on my plane again. My plane has been sitting in the shop hanger since June, and the engine's been in a crate on the floor next to it since July. It went out of annual at the end of August so that will be done as well. I'm hoping to have my plane back in a couple of weeks or so.
These delays have mainly been due to the shop being short-handed, as well as the fact that it also services the flight school and those planes take priority. Between the shortage of A&Ps, as well as a shortage of parts, there have been a lot of delays in getting work done, and non-critical work has had to be put off. I was very lucky in that I was able to obtain new cylinders. I've heard Lycoming is at least a year out on filling orders for new cylinders so overhauled cylinders are currently the only option at many overhaul shops. Oil filters are another part that is in very short supply these days.
The parts shortages may be alleviated if manufacturers can ramp up production. The A&P shortage will take longer to address. Mr. Camp, and the state of Oklahoma seem to have a good plan to address it. Hopefully more states will follow their lead.
As an A&P mechanic that lives in Oklahoma, there are no jobs for $80k yearly unless you’ve been in the field for a really long time.
About 18 months ago I looked into getting A&P.
It was very expensive, takes a LOOOOOONG time and the entry level pay was not enough to make sense for me. Maybe it makes sense if I lived in a small town in Nebraska, but I live in a city where the cost of living is fairly high.
Every local airport is packed with a 10 year waiting list. Jets, turboprops as far as the eye can see. Huge numbers of flight ops per day.....extreme quantities of cash being spent.....yet they offer little reason for people to get into maintenance.
off topic program suggestion regarding shortages: DPEs. All of the DPEs in my area retired or quit. I had fly to another location for a check ride. How about a show about DPE shortages and what it takes to become a DPE?
Starting pay (and really, all salaries) is/are garbage for a&p's unless you can talk yourself into a niche position and convince them to pay you more.
Is that not any entry level job?
Many of the airlines are launching pipeline programs. Some contracting companies are doing the same for government contracts. I’ve even seen some GA shops offering pipeline programs. Lots of options out there. The problem is that there’s a massive lack of experience. The very experienced mechanics especially in GA are leaving the industry and aging out. The hard part is getting people to see aviation maintenance as an option. Trying to get people to want to go through the work is difficult. Especially with how lacking the pay can be in the beginnings. GA especially is struggling because mechanics don’t feel they can charge their worth.
A mechanic at Toyota makes as much or more than the local A/P and does not have to sign log books . I have had my A/P since 1967 and was lucky with a good company but many A/P have not been so lucky . If one has an A/P they can do many other technical jobs . Many of these other technical jobs are not out in the weather , no shift work,, more job security and week ends off.
I work as a GM Tech, am a certified welder, hobby machinist…curious about the field as it looks interesting I filled out an app at a local hanger that is actively looking for mechanics, they never even called me back. I’m thinking aviation shops are probably doing the same thing the auto shops are; turn and burn. Get a little work out of em cheap and hold on as long as you can.
I fully agree not everybody needs a collage degree. But I also think that not everyone has the aptitude or patience to be a good mechanic, aviation or otherwise. And I agree for the liability involved, the wages are terrible. That needs to change to get new people in.
As with just about everything in aviation, it’s not a people shortage- it’s a pay shortage.
Im a certificated Private pilot and Im 42 years old. Is it too late for me to seek out an A&P license? what would be my realistic outlook of a career in A&P and possibly IA.
Once upon a time I was an A&P for TWA, got fired for taking a day off without pay and and could not buy a job in aircraft industry 😠
A&P with IA who left the industry long ago for economic reasons. Ga owners would tell you all about how it just cost them $1500 to service their Mercedes, then have a melt down when you informed them their airplane needs a $300 part. Present them a bill for the annual inspection and their response was "Oh my Joe shmo only ever charged me this much." Exactly. Why I'd find several AD's and basic maintenance issues never ever performed. Needless to say they grumbled a lot, paid you, and you never herd from them again. Some others running auto fuel and automotive engine oil and cannot understand why their compression readings failed. Run away from these owners. Nothing but a future law suit when they find out they could not pull over to a cloud.
In Australia, there is virtually no viable or readily available pathway to get a mechanic licence, mechanics are retiring and closing up, nobody hardly is taking on trainees, you can’t go to a college dedicated to getting you a licence, it is a very dire situation. Our regulator has made it so difficult, then there is the pay scale, young folks can earn way more doing almost anything else.
Gone but not forgotten, Let me tell you a story, Back when around 1989 I was making my living in NYC as a security Consultant, Company Owner when I received a call from a major airline that they had a security problem and would I come over and take a look and see what could be done When I met with their head of security the first words were they are missing enough parts that there is a 747 flying around not paid for, and what finally made him call me was that the paint shop had taken a Jeep piece by piece in painted it, and it wasn't for the worker it was for his neighbor. they had one aisle that held fan blades that had a guard on it and you had to sign out every part and still, parts went missing, Lock the doors (Can't Union Says No) Check cars leaving (Can't Union Rules) on and on "CAN'T UNION RULES" well 2 years the company filed for bankruptcy (Dec 1991) for years I would see bumper stickers (Gone but not forgotten PAN AM) Pan An was the last major airline to have repair facilities in the USA, in my humble opinion they destroyed the airline repair industry from the inside and then cried about it for years with a bumper sticker, Gone but Not forgotten Rest in Peace PAN AM. Note Many, Many, Many Good hard working Men and Women worked and loved the company, it was those few that could and would destroy it
im almost done and its rough the amount of knowledge required to work on aircraft
Yep, in five years you won't remember a quarter of that crap your cramming in your head ! Especially when, and if you move into a different career after seeing the reality of A+P wages.
You can join the airforce without having to go through college? Or do you mean you went through the airforce academy to become a mechanic? I would love to be an A and P for the military
You would think an A&P could open up a shop and charge as much as they wanted…but it sounds like opening up their own place is near impossible.
Price liability insurance which is a must have which makes it very hard to open up a business.
I paid for my own college. Got a computer science degree. Now I work with guys who don't have degrees and are making as much as me. 100% don't spend the money on university unless you're trying to be a lawyer or doctor.
I saw the following on a Fox News talk about truckers and skilled trades.
It’s not just truckers! Skilled trades are feeling the shortages too. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC, carpenters, and on and on are loosing qualified people. A big part of it is that baby boomers are reaching retirement age and pulling the trigger on leaving the workforce. The younger generations don’t see these types of jobs glamorous or exciting enough and don’t want to put in that kind of effort. Those boomers that are close to retiring have had enough of the changing work culture that it’s driving them away. Companies can’t find suitable replacements primarily because the lack of foresight in our educational system. In another ten years try to find somebody to come to your house or place of business to fix or repair anything. Even if you did could they get the parts or materials they need delivered from the trucking industry?
Hey girl I'm a A&P looking for a place to land, also sel and x atc usaf center, rapcon, moble gca got my first ticket in 1954.
Jack Northrop didn’t have a degree, look what he accomplished. Companies should have a test to determine an employee’s abilities, similar to the ASVAB or College entrance exam. I have solved problems for engineers where I work and they say I think outside the box. I wonder if the education required for an engineering degree helps build the “box”.
@christywong why would you bash SpaceX? Especially on a podcast where you’re promoting engineering?
This really isn't a hard thing to figure out. I've been an aviation mechanic for 18yrs. When I graduated high school the large push was to get a 4 year degree because tech and trade school jobs were not paying very well and lots of us had parents in the trades and were having a hard time paying for the standard American family. They did not want to see their children go through the same hardships so 4 year degree jobs looked to be the answer. The problem was knowing what degree to push your children into.
I was not cut out for the the 4 year program at 18yrs old and my parents and I thought that an airplane mechanic would make a better living then an auto tech or diesel tech. Sadly when I graduated college the auto techs and diesel techs were making 3 to 5 dollars and hour more than I was, and had next to no liability after the work was completed. No one talks much about the liability side of A&P's when you get into the program. Remember when an airplane breaks there is no pulling over to the side of the road.
There are still FBO's and maintenance shops out there paying mechanics less than $20 bucks an hour for an A&P while the shop rate is well over a $100. Until the jobs pay more people will not go into the trade. Much like everything in aviation we are still operating as if we are in the 1950's. With regulations getting worse, larger companies trying to keep any startups from happening, and cost only growing.
Until the pay increases to a level that reflects the cost of the industry this problem will continue. You can't have half a million dollar GA airplanes and expect the tech that works on them to only make 50k a year.
Very nice video and sorry for the rant
I'm in the same boat as you. I went through A&P school in the early 90's, worked in aviation for around 10 years, moved to a different career in industry that pays for my time, Unlike aviation !
I do love working on a/c, if they would pay me enough I'd go back !
. Go read Mike Bush Sport Aviation article mechanics liability
Preaching for 3 years didn't work out too well there Dad
It's seems like you get stuck wherever your first job puts you in the commercial world. Had to move to another job to work on powerplants from cabins.
I disagree with the assertion that the lack of interest in trade schools comes from kids choosing college degrees instead. The underlying argument boils down to "kids these days are lazy". I know it's a popular line of thinking, but this is a lazy, trite argument that ignores some real economics at play here. Bottom line, and this comes from me talking to multiple shops, they have to compete against auto shops and heavy diesel shops that pay at or above the rate paid to AMTs. My local FBO pays A&Ps $25/hr, and hasn't moved off of that rate in years. In the meantime, starting out at the auto shop half a mile away pays the same or better, and it's far easier to qualify for that job (no 6000 hour requirement), and far more jobs to choose from. Don't like your job at the dealership? There are 20 other places you could choose from. Don't like having to be on call at the FBO every holiday and weekends? Well, you might have to move across the state or country to make a change, and it might not be all that much different. The economics of aviation make disincentives for kids to choose into it, unless they want it bad enough to overlook the fact that there are much better deals elsewhere. Ironically, the measures Geoff Camp talk about directly address some of those disincentives, so they do work, but I suspect not for the reasons he's laying out.
I'll also add that it's high time they look to non-traditional students to fill the gap. I've had a 25 year career in IT. It's my plan to earn my A&P and retire from programming and maintain GA aircraft instead. Currently, I'm doing it the slow way, logging the hours that I'm able to help my own A&P doing maintenance under his supervision and direction. It's good experience. In addition to my own airplane, we've put several back together that were wings-off in a barn somewhere and made them airworthy, but it's slow. Very slow. I've been at it for almost 5 years, and have just 1200 hours logged. But that's the only way I could meet my current obligations and make any progress at all.
My local community college does have an A&P program, and I was sorely tempted, but the schedule they're on is so awkward (classes were 6am - 1pm, or 2pm - 9pm), there's no way I go to school and work enough hours at my day job to keep the mortgage paid at the same time. If they had the flexibility to do it after 5pm and spread it out over 3 or 4 years, and I'd have signed up and have my A&P already.
Incentives to counter some of the small market economics of aviation are great, but if the FAA wants to acknowledge the crisis, and actually do something about it, they'd benefit from re-thinking the very old-school way they go about training new A&Ps.
Well the people with pieces of paper are working at Starbucks…