@@TheBrotherOfPeter Doug is postmillenial in his eschatology. James is amillenial. James is a Reformed Baptist, Doug is a Presbyterian. So, only secondary differences between these two heavyweights. Hope that helps.
@@MarkCox21125150 I have never heard Dr. White discuss his eschatology, in fact he seems to avoid the topic. Could you please provide a reference to his position?
Jay Hu I have been listening to Dr. White for four years now and I have read a few of his books. I have heard him poke fun at Pre-Trib Dispensationalists and call preterism heresy on his radio program. Other than that I have no idea what his eschatology is. He does seem to avoid the topic.
I will never get tired of these two men talking to each other. Praise God and 1000 amens. God is separating the wheat from the chaff. We see in the streets what the fruit of atheism and statism looks like. May this nation turn to Jesus and his lordship.
i truly see the Fruit of CHRISTianity, Brother! Of course, i see the world. But We have an incredible Nation; even set up off of the Law/Word of GOD!!)
"Christ, or chaos!" I've never heard it stated so succinctly. We are truly living in a time of facing the reality that life is either Christ, or chaos.
I have been homeschooled my entire life, and a facebook group for those invested in or interested in homsechooling my mother is in has seen a skyrocketing level of new members during these government restrictions. It has increased in the thousands. Many people are turning to home education.
God has a great sense of humor in these things. He likes to tear down man's foolish pretensions Warren. Sounds like you are receiving a good education.
This is the exact line of thinking that helped lead me to Torah!! Very well done brothers! Keep seeking and keep fighting the good fight! Blessings of Yah be upon you both!
James asked a great question around the 51 minute mark - believing a truth but not applying it. I can say for myself, not knowing how to apply it in real world scenarios (because I have been taught for so long to live by my experience and “what works” - the pragmatic life).
BUT BEING TAUGHT TO APPLY AND HOW TO APPLY IS STANDARD BIBLE AND BIBLE TEACHING, IF WE READ OUR BIBLE ITS THERE, BUT WHEN WE SPEND MORE TIME WATCHING SECULAR MEDIA AND LIBERAL MINISTRY, THAT INFORMATION IS BLOCKED FROM US. WE ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT WE EXPOSE OURSELVES TO. YOU POINT IS WELL STATED, I HOPE YOU HAVE LEARNED FROM IT. THANKS FOR SHARING.
This is so important, even if you don’t believe in Christ, this is how healthy people view the world today. I became a believer because of the way the world is. I couldn’t believe this nonsense was really happening. Until I dug deeper and found the truth. This is the book of Revelation happening right before our eyes.
I think your 15% estimate is significantly low. Dr. Wilson was on to it in regards to the small town presbyterians and reformers, but there are a LOT more of us than people realize. 15% is probably accurate in the urban centers where you fellows serve, but it's more like 60-70% out here in the small towns. I serve in a small town with 7 reformed or presbyterian churches that work together and are all committed to biblical authority and truth. The next town over is the same. Our classis (Wisconsin) is something like 17 churches, all firmly committed to the Authority and Sufficiency of Scripture. There's more of us than people realize, and we're a lot healthier than people realize.
I agree the assessment is significantly low. I would not attempt to limit those that are committed to Biblical authority and truth to only the group that identifies as "small town Presbyterians and reformers". The case in point is that Dr. Wilson grew up Baptist as did James White. I am not despairing or praising either group. God will eventually gather His faithful from these two groups and many others. Unfortunately these groups also contain those who are not His. Thank God for preserving His witness in many diverse congregations and for bringing His real Church into more perfect understanding.
Now is the time to encourage ppl to read Animal Farm. You can already see it playing out. Start a revolution so that a select few can take all the spoils.
What may be missing here is that in a contest between the emotions and the intellect, the emotion wins. They have done “the math” and strategically chosen a more sure path to power rather than truth. Hopefully the destruction they bring will (eventually) create a desire for the even more sure word of Truth.
Well done both of you . Stand firm on the authority sufficiency inerrancy of the Word and the Truth of our wonderful Kinsman Redeemer Saviour Mighty Creator God ......Jesus our Messiah. Jason is a great Biblical Christian
My son's fiancee is a product of our University system and unfortunately, a far left leaning Intolerabelista! I'm praying to our Father to have mercy on our family and that He opens their blinded eyes, their minds, and their hearts to His Light & His Truth. Our Heavenly Father, I pray that you call each member of our family Your own. In the Name of Jesus, we pray. Amen.
It doesn't matter how many unshakable things pass, if we are beting taught unambiguously the Rock of our foundation we will stand through these times. Godly teachng by pious men of God livng what they preach is worth steady praise & loving worship of our magnanimous Savior. I don't know why the 50s & 60s were such a shock to so many, it really was the culmination of around 80-90 years of man's eager and immediate acceptance of a floppy theory that fed our desire to worship idols.
Education is and will continue to be Soviet style. You can check it out in the Congressional Records. In the 1960’s educators, legislators and lawyers can to DC and gradually inserted the Soviet style education in to the Dept of education with our blessings!!!! Voila, closing schools but not ones for the elite or truly gifted. All else is school to work.
A pot screaming : I made me is human insanity - I admire the patience of God. I would strike harder and punish me and the rest. This Grace of God overwhelms me - go into a personal relationship with God and do it now.
That you allow comments is to your credit. A response video, btw, has been done to this one. See czcams.com/video/5ZQ6cSIIhS4/video.html&feature=em-uploademail. Best wishes...
"you frequently have thoughts that require more than one sentence to express..." I would love to find the link to that one... Ideological possession means never having to think beyond one sound-bite Edit: Yes indeed - very very encouraging - thank you Father for raising up these faithful men (from our broken stock) eeee - I am going to lie awake until I have read every chapter nine in God's Word to try to make the connection... Edit 2: Oh - I have been spared - there it is queued up - The Arminians - """Phew""""
We are uniting against falsehood. We know that He is the Truth, He has blessed us with eyes that see through the deception. Knowledge far more valuable than the knowledge being given to children now. Knowledge of God is what we ought to spread. With that being said... “Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: but let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.” Jeremiah 9:23-24 KJV
I spent a week in Arizona. 116F there is far more comfortable than 99F in Miami with 100% humidity. It is a rare day when the humidity is under 90% here
Really? You present a claim, but do you have evidence to support it? I will offer a an alternate premise. The varients have existed from the moment the were created. And the variants are being distributed by a Government that desires an unlawful level of control over people. A virus is not a living thing. By its very definition.
The AllMightY 1st 1 Creator never belittled living creation or human beings to dust in the wind, or minute particles of atoms and protons for being enslaved, as governed lab rats
The AllmightY said, men, y do you seek and search for miracles in rebellion(s), to claim thine are equal to the AllMightY, and/or at the right hand, when all you need do is open your eyes, for the 1st whole life love spirited giver needs not meddling hands
Not believing in God is one thing. Cutting down on social gatherings in the name of public safety (however misguided it may or may not be) is another thing altogether. Governments have a responsibility and a calling to protect the public. There is no command in scripture to attend church en mass regardless of circumstances. On the subject of God being the one Who brings the earth to an end; I agree, but that doesn't mean that mankind doesn't play a part in it. Everything else; education etc I wholeheartedly agree with.
Man’s play in “the end” is sin, nothing else. Nothing materialistic that man does or can do plays NOTHING into Christ’s return. Sinfulness. Nothing in the Bible suggests otherwise.
Nations like to walk in their own ways more than Gods ways. Gods ways are much higher then our ways and if all Nations walked in the ways of God and not our own ways then Isaiah 11 would be a realty and our world would change to the new Heaven and Earth. You should know that when nations walk in their own ways they think that their ways are higher than other nations and they make war on each other and sacrifice human lives.
BRILLIANT ! Moderate Christ. As a student of the Bible and a professing Christian, I do not recognize the plethora of American “Jesuses” spawned by the political left and right. What I see is neither the Jesus of Nazareth I know from history nor the Christ of faith that I know. To begin with, I am not at all aligned with the Jesus of American conservative culture. A Jesus who sounds like a deified version of Ronald Reagan. A Jesus who believes that God helps those who help themselves. A Jesus who believes in the economic contest of survival of the fittest. Then, among progressives, their Jesus is frequently depicted in ways that would probably best fit the long-lost love child of Lenin and Lady Gaga who grew up to become an Antifa activist. The enterprise of progressive politics trades in a secular Jesus sanitized of anything that chimes of sounding to religious. I comprehend that everyone wants Jesus on their political side. I find it comforting that Jesus is still the blessing that everyone wants! But immense costs are being paid when politicians and pundits claim Jesus for their side. The preliminary problem is, of course, outrageous anachronisms. Claiming that Jesus advocated private gun ownership or a carbon price is like saying that Thomas Jefferson invented the Internet. Now, there are sound rationales for and against gun control, as well as how to balance economic growth and environmental protection, and religious texts and religious principles can contribute to those conversations. But claiming that Jesus supports one view and not another is simply ludicrous and impetuous. Likewise, I am unsettled as to how somebody could claim that Jesus was white, Jesus believed in tough immigration policy, Jesus supported user-pay health care or, if Jesus had a gun, he would have protected himself against the Romans. I’m profoundly puzzled to hear too that Jesus was a 1st-century brown-skinned Aramaic-speaking Jew who accepted same-sex marriage and decriminalizing cannabis. Plus, there’s the enduring trope of Jesus the Marxist as if 18th-century European politics and economics is the right backdrop to locate Jesus within. What we witness here is the image of Jesus being continuously twisted and distorted unbearably. Sadly, many want Jesus to be the private priest to a Republican emperor, or else, Jesus is summoned to approve a Jacobin purge on anyone suspected of not being progressive enough for the public square. Jesus is re-created in either the image of Caesar or Che Guevara. I cannot help but believe that the Apostle Paul had a word of rebuke to America and its endeavour to conjure the recollection of Jesus to support its politics: “If a person comes and preaches some other Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit than the one you had received or a different gospel than the one you embraced, you put up with it so easily!” (2 Corinthians 11:4-5). It is far more probable that Jesus, historical man and exalted Lord, does not neatly fit into any side of the political divided expanse. The Jew from Nazareth cuts across time-honoured political lines. No party owns him - as if the Lord of the univerese could be owned. Jesus does not respond to political affairs committies and cannot be made to utter political blessings on cue. Jesus cannot be mapped onto, let alone owned, by the American political divide. Or even the global one for that matter. For individuals who are solemn about following Jesus and how to live out their faith in him, it's not a question whether Jesus believes in our politics; the real question has to be whether we believe in Jesus and his kingdom as a challenge to our politics. He after all is said and done on his created planet the KING of KINGS. In other words, for Christians, the point of conflict should not be whether Jesus is more conducive to Republican or Democratic parties, but whether we are ready to split from the polarization of our politics to engage in a more genuine ideal of discipleship. To follow Jesus will inevitably demand we walk away from long-held political adherence to reorder our lives around a new constellation of values shaped by Jesus’ education, his standard, his death and resurrection, and his lordship over all things. Following Jesus does not mean being apolitical, becoming disinterested in the matters of government - quite the opposite. Being a follower of Jesus denotes trying to stamp our political values based upon the story and logos of Jesus himself, according to his kingdom, his teaching, and according to the faith delivered once and for all to the Body of Christ. Jesus’ way is the way of love for the poor and prophesying truth against the oppressor. If that is the case, Christians should not imbibe their political beliefs from personality cultists who either stir up turmoil within them or who terrify them into prejudice. Christians should rather be prayerfully and thoughtfully contemplating what it means to follow Jesus in their nation and neighbourhood. Then, unified with our christian family, aspire after things that are true, noble, right, pure, lovely and admirable (Philippians 4:8), and humbling ourselves ask God to give us the wisdom and courage to pursue them (James 1:5). As a theologian, I can tell you that in Christ, there is neither Republican nor Democrat, Libertarian nor Green, Dixiecrat nor Republocrat, but we are all one in Christ Jesus. All of us, whether of the red or the blue, of the elephant or the donkey, must discern within the precincts of our consciences what a disciple of Jesus should do about health care, gun violence, the opioid epidemic, foreign policy and immigration. Not designating Jesus as our patron, but faithfully reasoning out how to follow him in a context far withdrawn from his own. Politics informed by religion is a mechanism to a shared good, but politics with Jesus randomly stapled on at the end doesn't make for a satisfactory religion. Rather, we heed Jesus’ call for his congregation to be “the light of the world” and “a city on a hill” (Matthew 5:14) by placing forth a vision of human discipline and value that honours the God who made us and redeemed us in Christ.
It's funny to hear James talk about proclaiming the whole counsel of God when he openly refuses to preach anything he deems a "disputed passage" like the long ending of Mark, the story of the woman taken in adultery, doxology of the Lord's prayer, Johannine comma, or Acts 8:37. Maybe he will come to the truth someday. I hope so.
2 + 2 = 4 You your job is to tell people that 2 + 2 doesn't equal four. It's called apologetics evolution occurs in reality. The theory of biological evolution explains that You're not going to overturn evolution because it's true and it has happened
Lukewarmnomore I can’t believe how many Darwin Evolutionists up here in the state of Washington (90% of the population) are wearing masks.. Complete hypocrisy. I was hoping natural selection would set in so i would get social security, #cancelBoomers!
Or due to the fact that truthers became few, for power-hungry handlers became of mass, for carnally prejudicial deaf, dumb and blind on perverted prejudicial schemes
The AllMightY Creator said and says paraphrased, even if you do evilly as past generations, your polluted false earth with its falsely perverted governed heavens shall pass, but NOT THE WORD 💗🌼💕💕💕💗
If Scripture is sufficient in the LCMS, why do they apply water to infants and call that baptism? No such thing is either taught or practiced in the Bible.
Greg B um, infant baptism is pretty common in the historical church and is adiaphora in scripture. There are solid arguments on both sides and brilliant Christian men who come down on both sides. It’s not as simple as that-they still believe in sola scriptura, even if their exegesis is sometimes different than yours. I consider myself a 5-point-Lutheran 😂 and I do believe in infant baptism under the new covenant. Does that mean I don’t believe in sola scriptura?
Moses King actually it’s mentions specific households that were baptized. You are assuming that they had small children or infants, it doesn’t say that. I know a lot of people that do not have small children or infants in their household. Many times in the Bible it says to believe and be baptized. Babies do not believe. I grew up Methodist and was baptized as a baby and had to unlearn that that baptism was sufficient, according to Scripture. Something I believed in my whole life, just because the church said so. But now I follow the scripture and Jesus not The book of doctrine written by a man.
It's all fluff. Green hair can be bought in a bottle for ten bucks. Anyone can conjure phony emotions and scream. Just stick with Sola Fide. Unfortunately, both of these Lordship Salvation teachers don't do that.
But if I feel strongly that my poorly designed airplane should fly, well...then it should fly. The Gnosticism in our culture makes the ancients look like amateurs.
Charlie Renfro if your enlightened mind is the kind that expects, nay demands, a person to call a man a woman just because he sincerely believes himself to be one then I have only two words for you, “Ha ha!”
@@justinbrown8036 We have a lot bigger issues than then men wearing dresses. Why don't Christian fundamentalists rail against corrupt never ending wars? or corrupt financial markets? or corporate welfare and subsidies? or the corrupt drug war? or a militarized police state? You guys never mention these issues. You're focused on statues coming down and men wearing dresses.. meanwhile we are and continue to be robbed blind!!! The PPP loans are the biggest robbery ever... really ever. But nothing from you brilliant people.
Charlie Renfro so you’re conceding that academia is a woke joke? That’s why we’re moving on to a scattershot of other socioeconomic issues that you seem to think are objectively more important than fundamental definitions?
If you consider yourself as, left-wing or if you consider yourself right wing. All you have to know is... With only one wing all you ever do is fly around in circles. Feeling dizzy yet? A man.
What you’re describing is being lukewarm. Bible says God will spit you out of his mouth if you are lukewarm, pick a side. If you are not for Jesus then you are against him. You can’t have both wings according to Jesus. I tried to have both for many years, it doesn’t work!
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: (fulfilled 2017) and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, (you are here) and then they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (coming in 2027) The eighth that comes out of the seven and goes into perdition who's number is 666, was revealed in 2013
@@daltonbrasier5491 It might be a good idea to prepare for what comes ahead of Jesus return as he instructs so we don't get ginoskoed as those in the days of Noah when the flood came. Most don't realize that Mt 24 is all about knowing so we don't get wiped out and the idea that no man knows the day or hour in all 3 uses in Mt 24-25 the word know or knoweth are in the present indicative. Also consider that the "he" in Daniel 9:27 refers to the messiah in verse 26 - Jesus confirmed the new covenant with many for 7 years (1 week) - with his many disciples and 12 apostles for 3.5 years - with over 500 for 40 days after the resurrection and another 3 years with Paul beginning about 6 months after the resurrection. Bye bye futurism
Isn’t it strange how Christians Iike these guys keep bringing up atheistic s0cieties and how they wiII eventuaIIy resuIt in ethnic cIeansing or gen0cide. Did they suddenIy forget about how many times their own g0d committed such acts. In fact, many times he used humans to carry out this w0rk for him.
1. Your name isn’t helping your case much. 2. You might be in the wrong place if you think the “God is mean” thing is a valid argument. That’s been asked and answered thousands of times over thousands of years. These two gents alone have probably discussed it a few dozen times each. Do you think we don’t actually study our bibles or something? Have you taken the time to study this issue at all, or are you just rolling with some stuff you heard elsewhere?
@@80scottyboy Yes I've heard these gents discuss the topic before. It seems they don't see anything wrong with ethnic cIeansing or gen0cide (and the resulting sIaughter of innocents) per se, rather they have a problem when humans do these things without gods permission - that seems to be the real crime.
@@pazuzil Thanks for the reply. I think you're making some assumptions that if true would make for a double standard, so I'll quickly address those. 1. Those slaughtered were innocent. The peoples in question were involved in all sorts of wickedness including but not limited to idol worship, child sacrifice, orgies, etc. Only a corrupt standard could deem them innocent. I would ask by what standard would you measure them to find them innocent, and is this standard really consistent enough for you to reach back into history thousands of years and apply it consistently. Do you think your standard should transcend yourself, or is it merely your opinion brought about by current social construct and your own ponderings? 2. God shouldn't do that. God and man are not on a level playing field. If God created and sustains all things, from the vast expanse of the cosmos down to the tiniest quantum interactions, then He has all rights over His creation. Every breath, every beat of the heart, is a gift given to an undeserving, rebellious, ungrateful creation. For God to withdraw such a gift as life is not only His right, but is perfectly within His justice. Our continued existence is evidence of his mercy, grace, and patience. I think if you were to grant the premise that God exists then your complaint against Him really doesn't hold water. To say that you would be in judgement against God, the very means of your existence, the one who granted you the ability to string those thoughts together, and gave you fingers to type it up, is absurd. If you are interested in understanding the christian perspective on this a fantastic place to start would be Romans chapter 9, especially verses 14-24.
@@80scottyboy 1. Were the young children guilty too? What did the midianite girls in numbers 31 do to deserve being kidnapped or the boys do to deserve being sIaughtered? What does it matter whether they lived a year ago or 5000 years ago or are you a cultural or moral relativist? If something like this happened today, just imagine how many Christians would condemn it as pure eviI 2. If you believe this, then it seems you actually agree with my original statement ie that gen0cide isn’t wrong per se... rather it’s wrong to do such things without gods permission. In fact, you could never say any act is wrong because you would first have to verify that god didn’t authorise it. I’m not judging god - in fact I don’t believe he even exists. I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of some Christians who bring up the crimes of people like Stalin to try demonstrate the supposed eviIs of atheism.
Can you quit with the straw manning?? "their socialist paradise... Ya know, Venezuela." come on man, they aren't looking at Venezuela, it's more the Nordic countries, wow. @20:05
Are you being sarcastic? Of course the socialists are not going to say they want to be like Venezuela, because Venezuela is falling apart. But that’s what happens when you follow socialist ideas. They like to point to Nordic countries because it’s politically useful, not because it’s accurate. ...Doug Wilson was clearly giving a jab, not suggesting they actually say they want to be like Venezuela. So, not really a straw man.
Until it comes to the last two years of how the virus has been handled then the socialist two-year olds don’t want nothing to do with them. And again, this is an ignorant argument because the Nordic countries are as socialist as the children claim them to be. Besides, why do we , as Americans need to look at others, when WE should be the beacon on a hill of every area of freedom and economic success? We have the Constitution the world will NEVER have…. as @ the Q&A said, it isn’t a straw man Venezuela is the logical outcome of what children will do when given the chance. The Left doesn’t want to look at the obvious so they disregard it.
The institutional church has been compromised and going the wrong direction for 1700 years. For example, Billy Graham, Doug, and James have never actually heard the gospel. The Gospel plan of God from the foundation of the world did not include the cross - the cross was the rescue mission to get humanity back onto the path toward their destiny in the Gospel plan of God - the mystery now revealed through Paul - the mystery of adoption - adoption was the plan - period.
This is the best crossover series ever.
Yes haha
It’s so encouraging to see brothers who know that they disagree on particular doctrines of faith and yet love each other so dearly. Blessings
What do they disagree on?
@@TheBrotherOfPeter Doug is postmillenial in his eschatology. James is amillenial. James is a Reformed Baptist, Doug is a Presbyterian. So, only secondary differences between these two heavyweights. Hope that helps.
@@MarkCox21125150 I have never heard Dr. White discuss his eschatology, in fact he seems to avoid the topic. Could you please provide a reference to his position?
Jay Hu I have been listening to Dr. White for four years now and I have read a few of his books. I have heard him poke fun at Pre-Trib Dispensationalists and call preterism heresy on his radio program. Other than that I have no idea what his eschatology is. He does seem to avoid the topic.
Music Lover James recently stated that he's changed his position to post millennialism
I will never get tired of these two men talking to each other. Praise God and 1000 amens. God is separating the wheat from the chaff. We see in the streets what the fruit of atheism and statism looks like. May this nation turn to Jesus and his lordship.
This is the fruit of a murderous militarized police state. But I bet that's the type of statism you support, right?
Gooood! -cause, We will be Together, as 'ECHAUD for Eternity!
i truly see the Fruit of CHRISTianity, Brother! Of course, i see the world. But We have an incredible Nation; even set up off of the Law/Word of GOD!!)
Amen! These two men are extraordinary and faithful pastors/theologians. Giants!
@@Chirhopher So you support a militarized police state, where an arbitrary authoritarian machine rules.... way to go.
No vest? Doug, he has betrayed us, he has betrayed us all...
That Idaho heat...😆
Brothers, keep having these conversations and we will eventually have the Christian education we should have. Grateful for the two of you. Blessings.
Yes, keep them coming! They have both done great service for Christ the King!
"Christ, or chaos!" I've never heard it stated so succinctly. We are truly living in a time of facing the reality that life is either Christ, or chaos.
Mr. Willson, my respect for both gentlemen. Too short; it was pleasure for mind and soul to listen the two of you. Thank you.
Yes, well worth the time. Was wanting more myself!
Loved it gentlemen. Thank you for the encouragement. Keep storing up treasure for yourselves.
What a wonderful discussion. May there be many more 🙏
Always a pleasure to be a fly on the wall for these conversations. Thanks for doing this brothers. I hope there will be many more
Vincent Stewart Jr.
Better then fly on dung..
#thankstodarwin
We’re in this mess
They think they’re animals
#cancelDarwin
#cancelEvolution
#thankstodarwin
We're in this mess 💀
They think they're animals 😔
much love n support to you guys. The crazier things get the less crazy you guys sound!
then you're not listening. These are bigoted, ignorant fools.
Science without God is idolatry regardless of your theory.
I agree! It seems that it is impossible to interpret scientific findings without understanding who God is!!
Science does not need your imaginary sky daddy
@@chrisclark7170lol what you doin here. Go back to R/Atheism. Your fallacies are welcome there
@@chrisclark7170Wow so edgy 😂
we need more of these please
These dialogs are a great blessing.
I’ve crossed the Tiber to Roman Catholicism thanks to these two! Praise be!!
Care to elaborate?
That's a funny thing to attribute to these two.
Praise the Lord!
Critical wisdom for our day - enjoying your leadership, Brothers!
I have been homeschooled my entire life, and a facebook group for those invested in or interested in homsechooling my mother is in has seen a skyrocketing level of new members during these government restrictions. It has increased in the thousands. Many people are turning to home education.
God has a great sense of humor in these things. He likes to tear down man's foolish pretensions Warren. Sounds like you are receiving a good education.
Brilliant conversation.
thankyou for this discussion
Thanks. More please.
This is the exact line of thinking that helped lead me to Torah!! Very well done brothers! Keep seeking and keep fighting the good fight! Blessings of Yah be upon you both!
"In the long run, stupid is not a strategy."
Rofl
I'm going to remember that and use it!
Either is religion.
Great discussion
I love listening to these two. Are there only 5 videos of them in the dialogues?
THANK YOU! Lots of great food for thought, learning a lot. God Blessings to you both
Great vid.
James asked a great question around the 51 minute mark - believing a truth but not applying it. I can say for myself, not knowing how to apply it in real world scenarios (because I have been taught for so long to live by my experience and “what works” - the pragmatic life).
BUT BEING TAUGHT TO APPLY AND HOW TO APPLY IS STANDARD BIBLE AND BIBLE TEACHING, IF WE READ OUR BIBLE ITS THERE, BUT WHEN WE SPEND MORE TIME WATCHING SECULAR MEDIA AND LIBERAL MINISTRY, THAT INFORMATION IS BLOCKED FROM US. WE ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT WE EXPOSE OURSELVES TO. YOU POINT IS WELL STATED, I HOPE YOU HAVE LEARNED FROM IT. THANKS FOR SHARING.
Dr.White: I hope this was an encouragement to those listening.
Those listening: Thank you.
3 people: No thank you
@@danielnewman9772 -- '3 people'? Are you are trinity?
This is so important, even if you don’t believe in Christ, this is how healthy people view the world today. I became a believer because of the way the world is. I couldn’t believe this nonsense was really happening. Until I dug deeper and found the truth. This is the book of Revelation happening right before our eyes.
Been waiting so long!
You had me at Cornelius Van Til! 👍
If, by God's grace, we can get out from under this current madness the business as usual church mentality of going along to get along, must end.
I think your 15% estimate is significantly low. Dr. Wilson was on to it in regards to the small town presbyterians and reformers, but there are a LOT more of us than people realize. 15% is probably accurate in the urban centers where you fellows serve, but it's more like 60-70% out here in the small towns. I serve in a small town with 7 reformed or presbyterian churches that work together and are all committed to biblical authority and truth. The next town over is the same. Our classis (Wisconsin) is something like 17 churches, all firmly committed to the Authority and Sufficiency of Scripture. There's more of us than people realize, and we're a lot healthier than people realize.
And it’s not just Reformed churches. People can be wrong in some areas and be more faithful.
Wisco suckaz
I agree the assessment is significantly low. I would not attempt to limit those that are committed to Biblical authority and truth to only the group that identifies as "small town Presbyterians and reformers". The case in point is that Dr. Wilson grew up Baptist as did James White. I am not despairing or praising either group. God will eventually gather His faithful from these two groups and many others. Unfortunately these groups also contain those who are not His. Thank God for preserving His witness in many diverse congregations and for bringing His real Church into more perfect understanding.
Great convo as always!
I have never seen such a shift in culture like now. It has to be spiritual.
Now I have to go read that CS Lewis
Now is the time to encourage ppl to read Animal Farm. You can already see it playing out. Start a revolution so that a select few can take all the spoils.
What a beneficial discussion. I have linked you from my fb page.
Two left wings had me laughing hard, it's Postmodernism like the king had no clothes scenario.
I don't know what it is but the only time I can listen to White is when he is conversation with Wilson .
The sweater vest tradition has been compromised by climate change?! Oh the humanity! 😃
This is wonderful. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ!
ya agreed
What may be missing here is that in a contest between the emotions and the intellect, the emotion wins. They have done “the math” and strategically chosen a more sure path to power rather than truth. Hopefully the destruction they bring will (eventually) create a desire for the even more sure word of Truth.
Well done both of you . Stand firm on the authority sufficiency inerrancy of the Word and the Truth of our wonderful Kinsman Redeemer Saviour Mighty Creator God ......Jesus our Messiah. Jason is a great Biblical Christian
"A little leaven, leavens the whole lump".
Feels.
My son's fiancee is a product of our University system and unfortunately, a far left leaning Intolerabelista!
I'm praying to our Father to have mercy on our family and that He opens their blinded eyes, their minds, and their hearts to His Light & His Truth.
Our Heavenly Father, I pray that you call each member of our family Your own.
In the Name of Jesus, we pray.
Amen.
You know what part of his body is doing the thinking.
It doesn't matter how many unshakable things pass, if we are beting taught unambiguously the Rock of our foundation we will stand through these times. Godly teachng by pious men of God livng what they preach is worth steady praise & loving worship of our magnanimous Savior. I don't know why the 50s & 60s were such a shock to so many, it really was the culmination of around 80-90 years of man's eager and immediate acceptance of a floppy theory that fed our desire to worship idols.
Education is and will continue to be Soviet style. You can check it out in the Congressional Records. In the 1960’s educators, legislators and lawyers can to DC and gradually inserted the Soviet style education in to the Dept of education with our blessings!!!! Voila, closing schools but not ones for the elite or truly gifted. All else is school to work.
And both brothers are using Mac computers. Can we win when we support the enemy? I think this is a pertinent question.
7:52 - well said.
/Bklyn👑
Will Dr. White ever debate Dr. Wilson? Post your updates here at kjvdebate.com/blog/f/augustinian-calvinism-debate
A pot screaming : I made me is human insanity - I admire the patience of God. I would strike harder and punish me and the rest. This Grace of God overwhelms me - go into a personal relationship with God and do it now.
Yo, 7,000, where you at?
Where is Doug's sweater vest?
That was my first thought too.
That you allow comments is to your credit. A response video, btw, has been done to this one. See czcams.com/video/5ZQ6cSIIhS4/video.html&feature=em-uploademail. Best wishes...
"you frequently have thoughts that require more than one sentence to express..." I would love to find the link to that one...
Ideological possession means never having to think beyond one sound-bite
Edit: Yes indeed - very very encouraging - thank you Father for raising up these faithful men (from our broken stock)
eeee - I am going to lie awake until I have read every chapter nine in God's Word to try to make the connection...
Edit 2: Oh - I have been spared - there it is queued up - The Arminians - """Phew""""
I was listening to this on podcast, but came to YT to see if someone had linked to that debate also. Did you find it? I'd love to see that as well
@@MansterBear mmm - I forget now - how the world has changed since this talk
We have a new thing "Ableism" it's" when an able body person in the military is prefered over diversity concerns"
Did Doug just say the word, "Redonkulous"?
We are uniting against falsehood. We know that He is the Truth, He has blessed us with eyes that see through the deception. Knowledge far more valuable than the knowledge being given to children now. Knowledge of God is what we ought to spread. With that being said...
“Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: but let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.”
Jeremiah 9:23-24 KJV
Our Moscow is soviet now
Moscow's gotta be better than California with King Newsom in charge!
Phoenix has dry heat 🙃
I spent a week in Arizona. 116F there is far more comfortable than 99F in Miami with 100% humidity. It is a rare day when the humidity is under 90% here
The messed up thing about this epidemic is you can see evolution in real time with all the variance
Really? You present a claim, but do you have evidence to support it? I will offer a an alternate premise. The varients have existed from the moment the were created. And the variants are being distributed by a Government that desires an unlawful level of control over people.
A virus is not a living thing. By its very definition.
The AllMightY 1st 1 Creator never belittled living creation or human beings to dust in the wind, or minute particles of atoms and protons for being enslaved, as governed lab rats
watching this 2 years later, and things have gotten much worse
James, Sir, great talk, next time let Doug talk a little more
The AllmightY said, men, y do you seek and search for miracles in rebellion(s), to claim thine are equal to the AllMightY, and/or at the right hand, when all you need do is open your eyes, for the 1st whole life love spirited giver needs not meddling hands
Chapter 9 😂
Genesis 1 + 2
Never get in way of the enemy when they are destroying themselves.
Don't get in the way but try to save as many bystanders as possible
Not believing in God is one thing. Cutting down on social gatherings in the name of public safety (however misguided it may or may not be) is another thing altogether. Governments have a responsibility and a calling to protect the public. There is no command in scripture to attend church en mass regardless of circumstances.
On the subject of God being the one Who brings the earth to an end; I agree, but that doesn't mean that mankind doesn't play a part in it.
Everything else; education etc I wholeheartedly agree with.
Man’s play in “the end” is sin, nothing else. Nothing materialistic that man does or can do plays NOTHING into Christ’s return. Sinfulness. Nothing in the Bible suggests otherwise.
Nations like to walk in their own ways more than Gods ways. Gods ways are much higher then our ways and if all Nations walked in the ways of God and not our own ways then Isaiah 11 would be a realty and our world would change to the new Heaven and Earth. You should know that when nations walk in their own ways they think that their ways are higher than other nations and they make war on each other and sacrifice human lives.
Mp
BRILLIANT !
Moderate Christ.
As a student of the Bible and a professing Christian, I do not recognize the plethora of American “Jesuses” spawned by the political left and right. What I see is neither the Jesus of Nazareth I know from history nor the Christ of faith that I know.
To begin with, I am not at all aligned with the Jesus of American conservative culture. A Jesus who sounds like a deified version of Ronald Reagan. A Jesus who believes that God helps those who help themselves. A Jesus who believes in the economic contest of survival of the fittest.
Then, among progressives, their Jesus is frequently depicted in ways that would probably best fit the long-lost love child of Lenin and Lady Gaga who grew up to become an Antifa activist. The enterprise of progressive politics trades in a secular Jesus sanitized of anything that chimes of sounding to religious.
I comprehend that everyone wants Jesus on their political side. I find it comforting that Jesus is still the blessing that everyone wants! But immense costs are being paid when politicians and pundits claim Jesus for their side.
The preliminary problem is, of course, outrageous anachronisms.
Claiming that Jesus advocated private gun ownership or a carbon price is like saying that Thomas Jefferson invented the Internet.
Now, there are sound rationales for and against gun control, as well as how to balance economic growth and environmental protection, and religious texts and religious principles can contribute to those conversations. But claiming that Jesus supports one view and not another is simply ludicrous and impetuous.
Likewise, I am unsettled as to how somebody could claim that Jesus was white, Jesus believed in tough immigration policy, Jesus supported user-pay health care or, if Jesus had a gun, he would have protected himself against the Romans.
I’m profoundly puzzled to hear too that Jesus was a 1st-century brown-skinned Aramaic-speaking Jew who accepted same-sex marriage and decriminalizing cannabis. Plus, there’s the enduring trope of Jesus the Marxist as if 18th-century European politics and economics is the right backdrop to locate Jesus within.
What we witness here is the image of Jesus being continuously twisted and distorted unbearably.
Sadly, many want Jesus to be the private priest to a Republican emperor, or else, Jesus is summoned to approve a Jacobin purge on anyone suspected of not being progressive enough for the public square.
Jesus is re-created in either the image of Caesar or Che Guevara.
I cannot help but believe that the Apostle Paul had a word of rebuke to America and its endeavour to conjure the recollection of Jesus to support its politics:
“If a person comes and preaches some other Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit than the one you had received or a different gospel than the one you embraced, you put up with it so easily!” (2 Corinthians 11:4-5).
It is far more probable that Jesus, historical man and exalted Lord, does not neatly fit into any side of the political divided expanse. The Jew from Nazareth cuts across time-honoured political lines. No party owns him - as if the Lord of the univerese could be owned.
Jesus does not respond to political affairs committies and cannot be made to utter political blessings on cue.
Jesus cannot be mapped onto, let alone owned, by the American political divide.
Or even the global one for that matter.
For individuals who are solemn about following Jesus and how to live out their faith in him, it's not a question whether Jesus believes in our politics; the real question has to be whether we believe in Jesus and his kingdom as a challenge to our politics.
He after all is said and done on his created planet the KING of KINGS.
In other words, for Christians, the point of conflict should not be whether Jesus is more conducive to Republican or Democratic parties, but whether we are ready to split from the polarization of our politics to engage in a more genuine ideal of discipleship.
To follow Jesus will inevitably demand we walk away from long-held political adherence to reorder our lives around a new constellation of values shaped by Jesus’ education, his standard, his death and resurrection, and his lordship over all things.
Following Jesus does not mean being apolitical, becoming disinterested in the matters of government - quite the opposite. Being a follower of Jesus denotes trying to stamp our political values based upon the story and logos of Jesus himself, according to his kingdom, his teaching, and according to the faith delivered once and for all to the Body of Christ. Jesus’ way is the way of love for the poor and prophesying truth against the oppressor.
If that is the case, Christians should not imbibe their political beliefs from personality cultists who either stir up turmoil within them or who terrify them into prejudice. Christians should rather be prayerfully and thoughtfully contemplating what it means to follow Jesus in their nation and neighbourhood. Then, unified with our christian family, aspire after things that are true, noble, right, pure, lovely and admirable (Philippians 4:8), and humbling ourselves ask God to give us the wisdom and courage to pursue them (James 1:5).
As a theologian, I can tell you that in Christ, there is neither Republican nor Democrat, Libertarian nor Green, Dixiecrat nor Republocrat, but we are all one in Christ Jesus. All of us, whether of the red or the blue, of the elephant or the donkey, must discern within the precincts of our consciences what a disciple of Jesus should do about health care, gun violence, the opioid epidemic, foreign policy and immigration. Not designating Jesus as our patron, but faithfully reasoning out how to follow him in a context far withdrawn from his own.
Politics informed by religion is a mechanism to a shared good, but politics with Jesus randomly stapled on at the end doesn't make for a satisfactory religion. Rather, we heed Jesus’ call for his congregation to be “the light of the world” and “a city on a hill” (Matthew 5:14) by placing forth a vision of human discipline and value that honours the God who made us and redeemed us in Christ.
It's funny to hear James talk about proclaiming the whole counsel of God when he openly refuses to preach anything he deems a "disputed passage" like the long ending of Mark, the story of the woman taken in adultery, doxology of the Lord's prayer, Johannine comma, or Acts 8:37. Maybe he will come to the truth someday. I hope so.
The 1st AllMightY Whole Creator is above men’s gender names, 4 The AllMightY Whole Creator is Complete in Family Lawed Word
2 + 2 = 4
You your job is to tell people that 2 + 2 doesn't equal four. It's called apologetics evolution occurs in reality. The theory of biological evolution explains that You're not going to overturn evolution because it's true and it has happened
#thankstodarwin
We're in this mess 💀
They think they're animals 😔
#cancelDarwin
#cancelEvolution
Lukewarmnomore
I can’t believe how many Darwin Evolutionists up here in the state of Washington (90% of the population) are wearing masks..
Complete hypocrisy. I was hoping natural selection would set in so i would get social security, #cancelBoomers!
Or due to the fact that truthers became few, for power-hungry handlers became of mass, for carnally prejudicial deaf, dumb and blind on perverted prejudicial schemes
Are you skipping medication?
The AllMightY Creator said and says paraphrased, even if you do evilly as past generations, your polluted false earth with its falsely perverted governed heavens shall pass, but NOT THE WORD 💗🌼💕💕💕💗
Perfect example of what happens when you live in a fish bowl.
But who is living in a fish bowl?
I know it’s not a huge denomination, but have you guys ever heard of the LCMS?? They teach the sufficiency of scripture, don’t they?
Yes they do. That are classic/historic Lutherans generally acknowledged as “confessional” “evangelical” Protestants.
If Scripture is sufficient in the LCMS, why do they apply water to infants and call that baptism? No such thing is either taught or practiced in the Bible.
Greg B um, infant baptism is pretty common in the historical church and is adiaphora in scripture. There are solid arguments on both sides and brilliant Christian men who come down on both sides. It’s not as simple as that-they still believe in sola scriptura, even if their exegesis is sometimes different than yours. I consider myself a 5-point-Lutheran 😂 and I do believe in infant baptism under the new covenant. Does that mean I don’t believe in sola scriptura?
@@rodneymeeks4166 -- Find a single case in the NT of an infant being baptised, or a single command that infants be baptised; then we can talk.
Moses King actually it’s mentions specific households that were baptized. You are assuming that they had small children or infants, it doesn’t say that. I know a lot of people that do not have small children or infants in their household. Many times in the Bible it says to believe and be baptized. Babies do not believe. I grew up Methodist and was baptized as a baby and had to unlearn that that baptism was sufficient, according to Scripture. Something I believed in my whole life, just because the church said so. But now I follow the scripture and Jesus not The book of doctrine written by a man.
Don’t see the forest for the trees, nor the worn out manufactured ruts of governing evil men since Genesis 3; What blind ignorance ?
Love this series...more Doug less James...and I think James would agree...8-D
Covid skeptics unite!
No Darwin, no Marx. At least Marx saw it that way.
Let’s not leave out Jeffrey Dahmer
It's all fluff. Green hair can be bought in a bottle for ten bucks. Anyone can conjure phony emotions and scream. Just stick with Sola Fide. Unfortunately, both of these Lordship Salvation teachers don't do that.
Christ or chaos? LoL...nope
'Its either Christ or chaos"? C'on Doug, you can think better then this horrible extreme dichotomy. Jesus H Christ, where is the informed middle?
Darwin’s dirty wrench was thrown in late in the evil generational cursers times
Did that sound good in your head? What a steaming pile of incoherent drivel. How much of Darwin have you actually read? It's none isn't it?
With a name like that you got to know something stoner
@@Dandelion0962 ....and in grammatical English?
Which of Darwin's books is your favourite?
@@mcmanustony go research yourself
@@Dandelion0962 How do I research how much of Darwin you've read? Just admit that it's NONE....would be much easier.
But if I feel strongly that my poorly designed airplane should fly, well...then it should fly. The Gnosticism in our culture makes the ancients look like amateurs.
God has created a sort of Righteous Natural Selection. The Rightous inherit the Earth.
Academia and the perseverance of enlightened minds has and will continue to endure. Organized religion continues to fade at a steady, healthy pace.
Charlie Renfro if your enlightened mind is the kind that expects, nay demands, a person to call a man a woman just because he sincerely believes himself to be one then I have only two words for you, “Ha ha!”
@@justinbrown8036 Actually, it's one word, squared.
@@justinbrown8036 We have a lot bigger issues than then men wearing dresses. Why don't Christian fundamentalists rail against corrupt never ending wars? or corrupt financial markets? or corporate welfare and subsidies? or the corrupt drug war? or a militarized police state?
You guys never mention these issues. You're focused on statues coming down and men wearing dresses.. meanwhile we are and continue to be robbed blind!!! The PPP loans are the biggest robbery ever... really ever. But nothing from you brilliant people.
Charlie Renfro so you’re conceding that academia is a woke joke? That’s why we’re moving on to a scattershot of other socioeconomic issues that you seem to think are objectively more important than fundamental definitions?
If you consider yourself as, left-wing or if you consider yourself right wing.
All you have to know is...
With only one wing all you ever do is fly around in circles.
Feeling dizzy yet?
A man.
What you’re describing is being lukewarm. Bible says God will spit you out of his mouth if you are lukewarm, pick a side. If you are not for Jesus then you are against him. You can’t have both wings according to Jesus. I tried to have both for many years, it doesn’t work!
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: (fulfilled 2017)
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, (you are here)
and then they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (coming in 2027)
The eighth that comes out of the seven and goes into perdition who's number is 666, was revealed in 2013
🤡
Im gonna hold you to that.
@@daltonbrasier5491 It might be a good idea to prepare for what comes ahead of Jesus return as he instructs so we don't get ginoskoed as those in the days of Noah when the flood came.
Most don't realize that Mt 24 is all about knowing so we don't get wiped out and the idea that no man knows the day or hour in all 3 uses in Mt 24-25 the word know or knoweth are in the present indicative.
Also consider that the "he" in Daniel 9:27 refers to the messiah in verse 26 - Jesus confirmed the new covenant with many for 7 years (1 week) - with his many disciples and 12 apostles for 3.5 years - with over 500 for 40 days after the resurrection and another 3 years with Paul beginning about 6 months after the resurrection. Bye bye futurism
@@thefeastpresents4774 I dont know that i would be on youtube if i thought jesus was coming back in seven years.
Isn’t it strange how Christians Iike these guys keep bringing up atheistic s0cieties and how they wiII eventuaIIy resuIt in ethnic cIeansing or gen0cide. Did they suddenIy forget about how many times their own g0d committed such acts. In fact, many times he used humans to carry out this w0rk for him.
1. Your name isn’t helping your case much.
2. You might be in the wrong place if you think the “God is mean” thing is a valid argument. That’s been asked and answered thousands of times over thousands of years. These two gents alone have probably discussed it a few dozen times each. Do you think we don’t actually study our bibles or something? Have you taken the time to study this issue at all, or are you just rolling with some stuff you heard elsewhere?
@@80scottyboy Yes I've heard these gents discuss the topic before. It seems they don't see anything wrong with ethnic cIeansing or gen0cide (and the resulting sIaughter of innocents) per se, rather they have a problem when humans do these things without gods permission - that seems to be the real crime.
@@pazuzil Thanks for the reply. I think you're making some assumptions that if true would make for a double standard, so I'll quickly address those.
1. Those slaughtered were innocent.
The peoples in question were involved in all sorts of wickedness including but not limited to idol worship, child sacrifice, orgies, etc. Only a corrupt standard could deem them innocent. I would ask by what standard would you measure them to find them innocent, and is this standard really consistent enough for you to reach back into history thousands of years and apply it consistently. Do you think your standard should transcend yourself, or is it merely your opinion brought about by current social construct and your own ponderings?
2. God shouldn't do that.
God and man are not on a level playing field. If God created and sustains all things, from the vast expanse of the cosmos down to the tiniest quantum interactions, then He has all rights over His creation. Every breath, every beat of the heart, is a gift given to an undeserving, rebellious, ungrateful creation. For God to withdraw such a gift as life is not only His right, but is perfectly within His justice. Our continued existence is evidence of his mercy, grace, and patience.
I think if you were to grant the premise that God exists then your complaint against Him really doesn't hold water. To say that you would be in judgement against God, the very means of your existence, the one who granted you the ability to string those thoughts together, and gave you fingers to type it up, is absurd. If you are interested in understanding the christian perspective on this a fantastic place to start would be Romans chapter 9, especially verses 14-24.
@@80scottyboy 1. Were the young children guilty too? What did the midianite girls in numbers 31 do to deserve being kidnapped or the boys do to deserve being sIaughtered? What does it matter whether they lived a year ago or 5000 years ago or are you a cultural or moral relativist? If something like this happened today, just imagine how many Christians would condemn it as pure eviI
2. If you believe this, then it seems you actually agree with my original statement ie that gen0cide isn’t wrong per se... rather it’s wrong to do such things without gods permission. In fact, you could never say any act is wrong because you would first have to verify that god didn’t authorise it. I’m not judging god - in fact I don’t believe he even exists. I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of some Christians who bring up the crimes of people like Stalin to try demonstrate the supposed eviIs of atheism.
@@pazuzil When you use the word "wrong" in a moral sense, what do you mean by it? Who or what determines what is right or wrong?
Would love to get someone besides White as the discussion partner. He's always been a reactive hothead, prone to childish altercation.
Can you quit with the straw manning?? "their socialist paradise... Ya know, Venezuela." come on man, they aren't looking at Venezuela, it's more the Nordic countries, wow. @20:05
Are you being sarcastic? Of course the socialists are not going to say they want to be like Venezuela, because Venezuela is falling apart. But that’s what happens when you follow socialist ideas. They like to point to Nordic countries because it’s politically useful, not because it’s accurate. ...Doug Wilson was clearly giving a jab, not suggesting they actually say they want to be like Venezuela. So, not really a straw man.
Until it comes to the last two years of how the virus has been handled then the socialist two-year olds don’t want nothing to do with them. And again, this is an ignorant argument because the Nordic countries are as socialist as the children claim them to be. Besides, why do we , as Americans need to look at others, when WE should be the beacon on a hill of every area of freedom and economic success? We have the Constitution the world will NEVER have….
as @ the Q&A said, it isn’t a straw man Venezuela is the logical outcome of what children will do when given the chance. The Left doesn’t want to look at the obvious so they disregard it.
The institutional church has been compromised and going the wrong direction for 1700 years. For example, Billy Graham, Doug, and James have never actually heard the gospel. The Gospel plan of God from the foundation of the world did not include the cross - the cross was the rescue mission to get humanity back onto the path toward their destiny in the Gospel plan of God - the mystery now revealed through Paul - the mystery of adoption - adoption was the plan - period.
Bro, have you ever read the Bible?