Why Do Japanese Games Handle Trans Characters so Differently?
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- čas přidán 14. 05. 2024
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Why Do Japanese Games Handle Trans Characters so Differently?
Happy Pride Month! If you play a lot of Japanese games, or consume Japanese media, you might notice that there is quite an abundance of gender non-conforming, crossdressing, and trans characters... but not very many gay or lesbian characters, by comparison.
In the West, T acceptance has been much slower than LGB acceptance, but in the East, this trend is largely the opposite. Why is that? And what does this have to do with video games?
In this Pride Month special, we'll be looking at the history and development of characters like Birdo and Bridget to see what we can learn about cultural differences in the area of gender studies. Join me in this (I hope) politically neutral and interesting look into Trans Characters in Japanese Games.
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/ moonchannelyt
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Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
03:00 - Sponsored By Brilliant.org
04:02 - History and Cultural Context of Gender Non-Conformance in East Asia
06:29 - Birdo, Localization Error and the Nature of Symbols
08:34 - Poison, a Different Level of Acceptance of Trans Characters Between Cultures
11:39 - Bridget, Trans People and Cultural Conformity; Iran Example
17:35 - Vivian, Social Disruption and Degrees of Acceptability in Japan, Understanding the Limit of Catch-All Terms like "East" and "West."
21:13 - Conclusion, a Long Rainbow Road Ahead of Us
23:52 - Credits Gag [Paper Mario: Sticker Star]
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Track List:
Intro - Rainbow Falls, Kirby's Epic Yarn
Sponsor - You Are Smart, Katamari Damacy
History - First Steps, Celeste
[Cupcake Dog Joke] - One Winged Angel
Birdo - Paper Mario Color Splash Birdo's Theme Custom Loop [Link Below]
Poison - Poison Theme, Street Fighter V Championship Edition
Bridget - Simple Life [Bridget's Theme], Guilty Gear XX
Vivian - Boggly Woods, Paper Mario The Thousand Year Door
Conclusion - N64 Rainbow Road, Mario Kart 8
Credits Gag - Paper Mario Sticker Star [Link Below]
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Additional Reading:
Same Sex Marriage Around the World:
www.pewresearch.org/religion/...
Birdo is the Perfect Metaphor for Trans Representation:
www.thegamer.com/birdo-perfec...
Birdo is Not a Trans Icon:
/ nintendos-birdo-is-not...
Akira Yasuda Talks About Poison:
www.forbes.com/sites/olliebar...
Daisuke Ishiwatari Says Bridget Always Trans:
www.gamerbraves.com/daisuke-i...
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Attributions:
• Street Fighter x Tekke...
[Poison Footage]
• Dynasty Warriors 8: XL...
[Dynasty Warriors 8 Footage]
• Paper Mario: Color Spl...
[Birdo Musical Footage]
• Birdo kissing Mario in...
[Birdo Kissing Mario Footage]
• Persona 5 Royal - Hara...
[Persona 5 Footage]
• [Ace Attorney: Dual De...
[Ace Attorney Dual Destinies Footage]
• Guilty Gear X2/ Bridg...
[Guilty Gear X2 Bridget Footage]
• Paper Mario The Thousa...
[Vivian Footage]
• Paper Mario: The Thous...
[Paper Mario Thousand Year Door Footage] ]
• Ichiban Level 3 Apology
[Level 3 Apology Footage]
• Paper Mario Sticker St...
[Credits Gag] - Hry
![[Vowel]물고기는 물에서 살아야 해🐟🤣Fish have to live in the water #funny](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3G9MH063Cx4/mqdefault.jpg)
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no sorry don't care
"I'm so busy, so in my free time I should keep up the hustle."
Nah.
im happy you got a sponsor!!! Keep up the good work, i love all your videos :)
No one is gonna use your garbage service
Your voice reminds me a little of the old myth busters narrator
0:37 As trans person living in Taiwan, I disagreed, being trans may not be as controversial to a random stranger, but it is a huge deal for your parents and family, people have not issue with trans people existing except if they are their own children. Also the 2021 court ruling was for one person, last time I checked there's still not a procedure to change your gender without surgery,
It is very different in society than it is for family, due to in part ti Confucian values... but this is also generally the case, even in the West! Taiwan, in particular, I am very familiar with. And certainly, though Taiwan is further ahead societally than the rest of Asia, the situation for Trans people there is far, far from easy.
This was another great video. I think your analysis about conformity is correct, and it also apply well to Taiwan and China. This is anecdotal, but as soon as I started to "pass" my aunties would start to ask me things like: do you have a boy friend? When are you going to get marry? or praising or criticizing my weight. Almost like reinforcing conformity.
😂😂😂 taiwaainans looks same lmao. and u said im trans
@@KathyXie Yo Luo that you from highschool? Eh prob not, but be funny for that coincidence to happen.
Surgery is the only possible way to change your gender. There is iterally no other possible way. I guess there testorsterone suppliments or suppressors but they don't change your gender they just make you a bit more masculine/femininine.
Trans rights are human rights
FR
I couldn’t agree more with this
Trans rights are pharmaceutical gains.
💯
YEAAAAAH
There is a big difference in Japan between the media, where gay or transgender people like Matsuko Deluxe are more common, and actually living out a non-conforming role in society. It may be legal, and there's some logic to saying that aligning one's gender and appearance is "conforming" as the video does, but in practice, it's going to spell trouble, especially at the workplace.
I haven't met many transgender (or genderfluid) people in Japan, but the ones I did all worked in areas like music or fashion, where people are more open about things like that.
This is absolutely true, and I wish I had made it a bit clearer in the video: the nature of high conformity in Japanese society allows for trans legality, but it is also the root of much of the persecution that trans and gay people face in Japan. Portrayals in media are an interesting case study in gender expression, but the situation on the ground is not nearly as progressive, so to speak.
Lesbians for fetish only, no reprezentation please
Is it as bad as for example in the UK, where transphobic hate pieces in the media, and from politicians, are a daily occurance? I guess the UK is known as terf island, so it is probably the worst country in the world for it.
Yeah, It is conflicting to me, I used to thing that Japan was the paradisefor trans people, because videogames. Video games really gave to many the wrong idea of Japan.
Agreed. A lot of foreigners tend to not realize characters they often praise for being "inclusive" are sort of meant to mock themselves. The characters are made in a tongue-in-cheek fashion. It's like how old cartoon characters needing to crossdress wasn't some "championing of inclusion." The intent was usually to mock such a thing. That's why these characters were *_forced_* to do it.
I loved the "Brazil mentioned" meme on the map xD it's so true! As a Brazilian myself I had to comment this, we love when gringos talk about us for some reason haha
Brazil would be such a great country if it got its corruption under control.
i thought only mexicans used the word gringo! wild to know our cousins from south america use it too
Haha, yeah, I feel like us Iberians and you good people over in Latin America share that, we really dont get enough positive attention
@@tremari0044 Used throughout South America.
fuck yeah we love gringos🤣🫣
There's also the implied transwoman, Beauty Nova in Pokemon X and Y. She says she was a Black Belt (an all male trainer class, the female counterpart is Karate Girls) "Yes, a mere half year ago I was a Black Belt! Quite the transformation, wouldn't you say?" but in the Japanese version she credits medical science for her "transformation", leaving no room for ambiguity ""I was a Karate King just half a year ago. The power of medical science is awesome, wouldn't you say?"
Lmao there's probably more trans characters in pokemon than gay characters
That was the first Pokémon game I ever played! Must be why I’m trans
Nice
Where is she located? I don't remember her but I've only played through XY twice before graduating in '21. 😅
@@marrav3794 She's fought in the Battle Maison in Kiloude City
Poison being trans representation only because the devs (correctly, unfortunately) assumed that western audiences would sooner accept a game where you beat up trans women than one where you beat up cis women is absolutely insane
I mean it kinda makes sense logically, if you were a man (idk maybe you are trying not to assume here) would you rather have to fight a biological woman or a trans woman? The trans woman has a stronger bone structure and so you won't seriously injure her as easily. Neither is honorable. I would probably pick the trans woman over the biological woman because since I'm pretty much on the same page as the trans woman, save for the medical stuff because $, we'd be pretty evenly matched. The biological woman would probably whoop my butt tho, and I'd probably let her 😅
@@neowolf09hrt changes a lot when one is transitioning, so no trans women wouldn’t be much stronger than you or a cis women, outside of bone structure.
@@umjustash I'm hoping so, wouldn't be much point to me trying to get it if it didn't change a lot.
But yea I know, that's why I said specifically the bone structure is stronger therefore there's a lower risk of causing a greater injury.
@@umjustashwell it depends on the person and how early they started treatment in their development or how long they’ve been on it, their bone and muscle structure before starting, truly depends, it’s a more complicated issue than many give credit for, and also less complicated than bigots act like
@@Gibbypastrami agreed. there’s a lot of nuances and depending on the person I can see the point made, but I feel like this viewpoint is rooted in the notion that trans women aren’t women. That they’re just men pretending to be women or that no matter how much they try they won’t ever be women so that’s why I said something about it.
I'm trans woman in South Korea.
well, changing gender in Korea is indeed possible, but there is no laws that supports LGBT(especially Trans).
It has been around 20 years since the first time the Korea allowed to change gender... in court, and still is today.
because the is government or council constantly ignore this issue, so we regard the judge as misrepresenting the gender by over-interpreting the statute.
both LGB and T are considered as 'wrong' by LBGT+ haters, but some thinks that LGB are 'loving the wrong gender' compare to Trans as 'born as wrong gender'(some others think the 'gender' thing doesn't exist at all, only sex). and there is some stories that they 'hide' their genders and live as other - like Bridget maybe.
not trans-friendly, but they just hate LGB more, because they shows up more, and more people exist.
trans just don't appears a lot to hated by normal people perhaps.
Hope you have a wonderful day! >x
Thanks for sharing.
Wow! Here in Brazil it's the opposite. While the LGBA people are more "accepted" because it's seems only about "sexual desires that can be hided or supressed" (so if the person do not get into a same-sex relationship, or at least do not let it get public, no one will ever notice their sexual preference and won't judge them), the T people are visibly obvious and much more victims of transfoby of all kinds than the other ones. The mentallity of to maintain the aparently consonanse with the society keep equal, but the main reason it's about religion as the islan does.
sounds kinda insane considering K-Pop seems like a huge pile of LGBT bait
@@Dizerfullpower In the states or europe? Kpop is NOT a special thing(of course) in korea so I have no idea how it works in west
You're a man lol
That line "the rainbow road may be long and full of obstacles, but it does have a finish line" is so fucking real
Earned him a sub
Where is the finish line
finish line is the rope 🤣🤣
@@emred4653 nuh uh uh
@@emred4653 the rope is meant for you, I assume?
"we didn't want players to beat up women so we made Poison a trans woman instead" bro no way 😭😭
Edited:
I believe I didn't make it clear enough in my comment above so: trans women are women, trans rights are human rights 🏳️⚧️
Welcome to the 80s where we basically ignored trans folk even existed distinct from drag. Hell, it was a good way to get beaten up in the anglosphere to be LGBT+ then or suspected of it. I'm honestly amazed looking back I don't have more scars as someone assumed to be gay from an early age.
They know me so well
@@cericat Even now many people ignore the existence of trans people, or claim that they don't exist.
@@sparklesparklesparkle6318 "obsessed" that would be you twits that have been crapping all over LGBT+ right since before I was born, leading to increased acts of violence against us as a whole, and trans folk (not me either BTW) in particular recently.
But yeah "gross", go flush yourself.
@@cericat We ought to bring back such times.
In case anyone who knows just a little Japanese is confused by this, the term “otokonoko” used in this video can be a little confusing without seeing the kanji, because 男の子 (otokonoko) just means “boy”, but the term for feminine boys replaces the kanji 子 (child) with 娘 (daughter).
So they are pronounced the same, but written differently as a sort of pun, although according to Wikipedia 男の娘 is sometimes pronounced “otoko no musume,” using the more common reading of 娘.
Looking at the meaning of the characters, the normal word 男の子 is male child, whereas 男の娘 is male daughter.
I’m glad to see this additional tidbit because as I was listening to the video I was frankly confused about “otokonoko” referring to an effeminate boy when I knew the term to simply mean “boy” and I thought I was missing something.
That's honestly a kind of cool way to see that. Makes a lot of sense in literal translation, too.
Thank you, I have been studying a bit of japanese so I got really confused at that part, for a second I thought he made a mistake. I still think he should've explained it in the video
娘 can just mean “young girl” so 男の娘is understood more as a “male girl”. It is read sometimes as otoko no musume just to clarify that it is using the 娘 kanji instead of 子、and the basic meaning should be understood as girl, and not daughter
@@yulibeta What would male daughter be? Asking for a friend.
So singaporean here from South east asia, NOT JAPAN.
I am a trans woman. I am currently medically transitioning on HRT.
So here's my personal anecdote on this whole situation.
As Moon mentioned, there is a very society pushback on people being queer in general, gay, lesbian, bi, trans, queer, asexual, aro, intersex, etc.
However personally, after the initial acceptance of me being a trans woman the "discomfort" of me seperating from the status quo moves away from me being trans and more towards me not behaving like a proper girl, ie, spreading my legs a little when I sit, not taking care of my hair, wearing clothes weirdly, makeup, etc.
Now to clarify, Singapore itself is a first world country with influence from both western and eastern country and has very little acceptance of gay/lesbians but for some reason, my medication for HRT is somewhat subsidized by the government (my consolation and spiro are subsidized while my estrodial is not).
There is very much in a sense "transitional" period within my country where there is acceptance, just understand it'll be a slow climb and will be better once all the old people are dead, and the old people knowing this and combined with the younger generations flagrant disregard for what the older generation thinks (western influence) and the older generations desire to "keep the family together" (eastern influence) results in a sorta, "I still care about you, I don't like your life style but I can pretend its not there as long as we can be together" mentality from the older generation pov. (I would also like to add being queer is not a "life style")
It should also be noted that is is just my personal experience and there are still alot of older generation people who believe in the "you do what I say or else." but like in America those are the parents who end up unable to see their future grandkids and end up in old folks homes, forgotten, rotting away.
Huh that’s definitely different than how I thought it would be like, but it’s great that they see you how you feel.
omg fellow singaporean :D
Congrats on starting HRT, Ashley!
You are not transitioning, because that is technologically impossible.
You are partaking in a body-destroying political ritual.
A Chinese friend of mine described a similar mentality when he came out to his parents, they just kind of pretend he's not gay in order to maintain the relationship. Imo that flexibility is a very good thing to have and honestly that is the most you can expect from 65 year old parents living in a B-tier city in China, Shanhai etc might be a bit different idk.
I think it's interesting that you never see mainstream depictions of trans masculine characters in mainstream content from anywhere in the world, but especially not in Japanese media. In this video, only women are spoken about.
I find the Trans Masc topic is often taken care of similarly to Persona 4, where a "misguided, silly girl" is just trying to escape the terrible experience that is being a woman (in comparison to being a man).
A great example of a Trans Man in Manga is Boys Run The Riot. I wish I could name more, but that's the only positive example that I've seen so far.
Transmasc representation has always been lacking pretty much everywhere. In comparison to trans women who have been mocked and parodied to kingdom come, transmasc people literally just get... ignored. And i DON'T mean that in some jealous or envious way. I would rather people be aware of my existence and willing to mock it, because that means there WILL be people who will make the choice NOT to. When so many people literally don't even know you're a thing that can exist, i cant imagine the way that fucks with people. Especially when what little people DO know stereotypes transmasc people as still generally being feminine, just deviant pretty much. Yall, i have seen some fuckin BEARDS on transmasc people, get real.
Getting a little off-topic, but you also almost never see anti-trans people decrying the risk to other men from trans men. Whilst there are certainly physiological considerations there, the disparity is too great to be accounted for in that factor alone, in my opinion, and very much boils down to a patriarchal mentality (e.g. that women are frail, helpless creatures who must be protected).
@@KindredBrujah ... please go find a physiology textbook. If a trans-man wants to pose a threat to the average cis man they have to put it a significant amount of effort. The inverse is not true. Sexual Dimorphism IS REAL in humans. That's not even an opinion....That's base knowledge. If a trans man squares up to a guy and they're both around the median of their respective group, the trans man is suffering. This isn't Top Female UFC fighter versus the average man and she wins type nonsense. Statistically men are ON AVERAGE stronger than women. If you need the gamified explanation its like men have a permanent +2 to base str.
Stop seeing discrimination and the patriarchy when much simpler explanations exist. Women aren't helpless but they are weaker than men. In exchange they're much more skilled at tasks that require finesse. Both sexes are advantages over the other when it comes to certain activities. Brute force is the domain of cis men. Everyone else falls down the totem pole below them. The reason anti trans people don't decry such issues is that there is no threat there. There simply isn't a reason for concern for any rational person.
debut self insert manga. That's literally all it is. Of course its positive. Its propagandized self insert trash. Its only got a kinda following in the west and is kinda dead in the east. That should let you know where its artistic standards lie.
@@kattkatt6961 It depends on how long the trans man has been on hormone therapy. Testosterone helps massively in building muscle mass as it generates proteins so at a certain point trans men are about as strong as cis men
your explanation on how Japanese culture treats transition as conformist and thus desirable explains so much tbh. flipped my brain upside down. your videos always get me to understand Japanese culture in new ways!
oh hey, fancy seeing you here
Absolutely agrees, much better than the doom and gloom fact stealing Moon channel with millions of subs on his channel.
I wish it was a little more like this in the US. It's still pretty awful and empowering patriarchy and conformity; but at least trans people have an avenue to exist in that society. In the US, a lot of the transphobia is centered around this "imposter paranoia" like "omg MEN are putting on dresses to INFILTRATE women's restrooms!" when... they just want to exist and use the rest room.
It wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a little better if society was like "okay, you're a woman now, here's a life-time of misogyny, difficulty getting a job unless you're a pretty waitress, and nobody will ever take you seriously; now get in the kitchen!"
@@Mekose You have a point. Sometimes when it comes to private business, just leave them alone and let them do what they like. Just, make sure to warn them of what's to come if they ever go for any other sex/gender than straight male or female.
@Mekose I can't tell if your paragraphs are ai generated or not due to their severe stereotypical nature 😊
I honestly feel like casual representation is the best kind of representation. As far as I know, most trans people don't base their personality around being trans, they just act like any other person. Same thing for most LGBTQ+, they're just normal people, they don't go around broadcasting their gender to everyone like we see so often in media. I think the best way to represent the LGBTQ+ community is to treat it as normally as it should be viewed in real life.
A nice example of this can be found in Mass Effect 3, where a character, Esteban Cortez, casually mentions that he had a husband and the conversation continues without even acknowledging it, just like how a heteronormative view thinks nothing of a man mentioning he has a wife.
Admittedly, our current world really isn't anywhere near ready for good casual representation. It's undeniable that marginalized groups have been painfully underrepresented in media, so it makes sense to try to try to overcorrect, it's definitely better than undercorrecting. I just hope that eventually the world can get to a point where tolerance is normalized enough that we don't need to announce it, where people don't have to feel marginalized for their race, gender, or any other factors, and casual representation is all that is needed.
Casual representation is necessary, but part of its failures is that it often doesn't address the unique struggles of these groups. It's often "this character has a gay dad", but ignores the reality that "my dad has to fight for nearly a decade to prove he and his husband could take care of me".
More explicit representation is often necessary to discuss the struggles of these groups in an open and honest way. Not burying their problems in layers of increasingly inaccurate metaphors, but addressing them head on.
Really, both are needed to portray to totality of traditionally underrepresented groups. Portraying the very real everyday lives they live as normal people, but also not glossing over their unique struggles to do so.
A recent manga I think handles this in a great way is Skip & Loafer. Mizumi goes to live with her trans aunt in the big city while she attends school there, and they never shine a light on the fact that she's trans. Mizumi herself never makes a comment or say anything in her internal monologues, her friends who she brings home don't either, and the aunt herself just lives her life. Passersby in the background will do curious looks sometimes, but they're never highlighted or turned into a thing. It's not until volumes in where we see chapters from the aunt's perspective that we learn the backstory and struggles. Excellently written manga overall, but the trans portrayal stood out to me as particularly great compared to other stories I've seen.
As a trans person who doesn't base my personality about being trans I like this take, it has its own unique struggles but overall I'd prefer if someone were to look at me for something they find interesting than the fact I'm trans.
I will absolutely deny your underrepresented claim. It is not unusual for small groups to have equally small representation, and the only way to think they are underrepresented is to narrow the scope of "all media" to "popular culture".
Causal representation certainly has its place. However, sometimes it feels tokenistic or checking a box off. I love casual representation, but when its a footnote it can be frustrating or reductive.
There are ways in which a story can be casual in representation, but also thoughtful. I love how Brooklyn 99 represents Captain Holt. He is a non-nonsense straight laced man. All his comedy comes from her super-serious nature. But there are times where his sexuality or race are key components for the story.
I find sometimes when the LGBT+ is overlooked, we miss out on interesting stories. Or just small tidbits that can help explain characters response or motivation.
As a gay man who has often felt isolated and alone - i now champion for many others minorities. Because, i dont want others to feel as alone as i did. Its not a huge LGBT+ parade, but its a small part that motivates me.
That last point is quite funny to me because there is a point where bridget literally stares at the camera and says "I'm a girl" to someone who she had previously told she was a boy before getting into a reflective conversation with him and another character.
He is a boy. He's been brown beaten into identifying as a girl now. That doesn't set a very good precedent.
@@Tb0n3Bridget wasn't forced by her parents. she was just made to appear as a girl for her own safety. Otherwise her parents were very nice to her, to the point where her parents are listed as one of her favorite things. The only reason she tried to act like a man was because she wanted to make her parents feel better, because they felt guilty about making her do it.
"As the child of multi-billionaire parents, Bridget was given the best training and tutoring as a child, exactly the upbringing expected for the daughter of a high-society couple. Bridget loved her parents, and so did her utmost to keep them from worrying for her, but she could see that the charade-necessary as it was-filled them with guilt,[4] for they felt they were forcing her to live a certain way. Yet, the harder she tried, the less effective her efforts became; they didn't believe her. She began to think of leaving the village, and that behaving as a man and bringing wealth to the village would convince her hometown that their superstitions were unfounded, and thus free her parents from the guilt."
this is from the wiki, which cites the sources of this.
@@BlightestBlight So Bridget isn't trans right ? That means she was a woman from the start and just pretended to be male. Can someone feel me in on the whole Bridget controversy ?
@@yuswagukami5335 her story is meant to reflect how trans people deny their gender identity early in their life due to societies expectations on gender. She’s born male, but presented as a woman during her youth for her own safety. Her parents regretted doing this, so she wanted to make them feel better by proving the superstition that 2 male children would be cursed is incorrect by taking up a manly profession like bounty hunting and becoming a success. But while she succeeded there, it didn’t make her happy. It made her realize that being a man or manly didn’t give her the happiness she thought she’d get by proxy from her parents. In real life, trans people are told that gender is an infallible thing, which causes distress when their dysphoric mind tells them the opposite.
In simple terms, she’s a trans woman, that’s what her story was always leading up to.
@@YeetYeet-gg7sf The biggest question would be: "Had her parents not forcing her to act like a woman in her youth". Would her actually become trans? This is the biggest problem of her character and also the criticism about retcon. Even the old story can lead to 2 different ending. Either she succeeded in her profession and prove the villager wrong, then return to live as a man. Or the 2nd option which is what we have. To me, the biggest reason they go for the 2nd scenario was mostly because they don't want to turn an establish "female like" character into a full fledge male. As simple as that
BRAZIL MENTIONED! also, thank you for the video, i've never tought eastern culture could be so... mirrored? will certainly watch more of your videos
10/10 coming from a trans woman. Thanks for showing the respect towards discussing the nuances of cultural expression of gender. This topic is usually drowned w one dimensionality.
Except the video is a bunch of lies lol, Bridget was retconned, daisuke didn’t create him, Japanese fans hate daisuke for it
No one should care about this stuff in the first place
@@tabbofiiAgreed, nobody should get violent just because consenting adults are different from themselves.
also trans girl, i second this!
@@tabbofii I mean we're talking about video games man, nothing in video games "matters" beyond its influence on the masses so wouldn't this be more "worthy" of people's care and attention than say, a normal review of Paper Mario TTYD?
Well, this video in context with Hideo Kojima, you could say he's more controversial in Japan. His portrayal of Revolver Ocelot in Snake Eater basically confirms his sexuality to be gay and attracted to Snake. More recently, in Death Stranding, being asexual is mentioned in its lore to be a result of the isolation and more embraced. He also inserts a lot of anti-war sentiments in his games that I'm aware isn't what the current government stands for. Honestly, I feel you could just do an entire video on Hideo Kojima.
I could write a doctoral thesis on Hideo Kojima. He is such a fascinating person, with fascinating perspectives, that Kojima.
See this is why I find the "western view" of topics like these a bit tiresome. For me the ambiguity of Ocelot is on purpose, and it is way more interesting than an easy answer. Kojima could have openly stated it, as he did with Volgin, but did not. I think it is because it is a way more interesting story to tell.
But it feels like from translators to fans, ambiguity is treated as bad or even insulting and artists must take a stand about every character and decision they make.
@@moon-channel Moonie, you aren't allowed to tease us with a doctoral thesis on Hideo Kojima and not deliver such a thesis. In fact this would I believe be a breach of the Geneva Convention.
@@AfutureV Ocelot isn't ambiguous at all. Ocelot is the gayest gay soldier to ever gay his revolvers. If anything he's too overt to the point of obnoxiousness.
Metal Gear has straight men? I thought they were all gay.
I’m so impressed with your work. You are compassionate and concise. Well researched videos and good editing/jokes.
Keep it up!
Comment by Akira Nishitani on 9:21 - I think it's important to note the nuance of the term "new-half" (ニューハーフ) which can be seen in that tweet, which is somewhat out of my depth to explain (what you'll see online will be conflicting, especially on Japanese websites,) but I'll give it a shot:
New-half is an overt declaration that Poison is a pre- or non-op MtF woman, specifically with a focus on her beauty, and that's what the word is used for.
Its use among LGBTQ+ communities in Japan (I've spent two years speaking with mostly Japanese LGBTQ+ individuals, so take what I say with a grain of salt) is still contentious even if it came from non-derogatory intentions, and current practice is for people to use it only to refer to themselves (or in this case, their creations). トランス系 and トランスジェンダー are preferred within the community, but ニューハーフ is something that more members of the general public may be familiar with (although usually in the context of performers and/or entertainers.)
I've been watching your videos for a few months now, and I find your style not only engaging, but your research to be thorough even when it is outside the scope of law. Just thought I'd add additional context for anyone wondering about that specific tweet and word.
You mentioned it in passing, but I think it merits doing so again: Men fulfilling "feminine roles" or portraying "feminine aspects" is more accepted in (East) Asian Cultures. Yeah, I know, annoying word coming up. But. Much like in Western Nations, women doing the same is, let's call it, under reported. And we can debate the reasons for this imbalance until next week and beyond. Which still doesn't change the fact that they do exist and deserve to be recognised and supported as such.
At the same time this needs to be contextualized and understood as a particularly modern phenomenon as well with the Bishounen trope taking off in Japan. Japans regional cultural influence spread it to the rest of East Asia and Southeast Asia to a lesser extent. We can discuss why, but it’s definitely not something that should be essentialised as Asian.
There is a danger with this perception contributing to the emasculation of Asian men as it makes it seem like “sissy boys” are ingrained norms in our culture that might even have genetic roots. Such a view would be ahistorical and unscientific.
@@peterwang5660 Absolutely true. I used this phrasing because that's how it was often used in the video itself and also to acknowledge that there were other nations in history that had men systematically fulfilling "less masculine" roles.
But beyond that it is, as you said, a whole thing and a half on how this particular flavour spread from Japan that should not be ignored. I just homed in on an aspect that often is even more overlooked.
Which a trans woman asked about shortly before I wrote that comment.
"Why are there no (visible) trans men in history?" My three reasons boiled down to "They existed, but nobody talked about them." The silent part being that they were still seen as women in some capacity, with some having to "fulfill these functions." To once again avoid saying terrible things outright.
@@nestrior7733 There's a reason why Androgyny as a word has Greek etymology. Humans have really been fascinated with this concept maybe since language existed, it's truly not unique to East Asia at all.
@@peterwang5660 I'm very well aware that this has been part of the Human Experience since forever ago. But right now there's a stark difference between Japan, parts of East Asia and the Western Hemisphere. Chances are that you have probably heard of what kind of legislation is being pushed against nonconforming people (trans and drag) in the USA. And the "rhetoric" is ramping up in Europe as well. So this video asked why this difference in attitude exists and I pointed out that this is mostly directed towards trans women and that nobody seems to talk about trans men nearly as much.
@@nestrior7733I think it's because in patriarchal conservative spaces men are thought of as incapable of resisting their sexual urges towards femininity, while women are walking sexual traps despite getting no sexual satisfaction or desire themselves, and are even infantilized. It's more common than you think for men in circles like these to not be allowed to change baby girls diapers and for little girls to be made to dress “modestly” so men don't look at them. Saying the men should be the ones not looking seems stupid to those circles, because men are physically incapable of doing so from their point of view...
So a trans woman, who people from these groups still think of as a man, can not go into a bathroom for women, because “his” sexual urges would go wild and “he” as a “man” can't possibly control himself in places filled with women kids
Women are not sexual beings, so trans men(wich again, transphobes will only see as a woman), are just confused little girls who just want to have the power men have, but they are just “women”, they don't have any power and therefore are not a real danger to anyone but themselves when deciding to “act as men”.
I would totally watch the 1 hour version of this with full historical context.
Something else that I've found interesting/depressing in Japanese portrayals of gender-nonconforming characters is that there is frequently an element of "correction", where some amount of gender-nonconformity is allowed, but characters are "restored" to a more "correct" and normative gender role by the end of their arc - usually a gender-nonconforming character being "restored" to a binary cisgender identity, but it could also be "restoration" to a binary trans identity.
Yeah, it's often seen as a kind of childlike experimentation. Not always, there's Japanese works that embrace the gender ambiguity, but it's not always the case.
I will second the wanting to see a longer version of this with all the historical context. I really enjoyed the explanation in the previous video.
I would also love an extended version of this topic!
ah yes, tell us about Naoto Shirogane without telling us about Naoto Shirogane.
@@SuperCaitballnaoto is a trans women dawg.
As an Indian American cis straight male, I would like to add some of my own experience for your statement in the beginning:
While it does seem like a generalization, I was raised hindu, and ever since I was a kid, I was told that the faith my family followed recognized a third gender, so learning about people under the transgender umbrella (trans men, trans women, nonbinary/genderfluid people) wasn't unheard of for me. This doesn't mean that it was hard for me to understand what being gay meant, (I grew up surrounded by gay people early in my life) but I believe that learning about the Hindu conception of gender made it easier for me to learn about Trans people as a kid.
5:54 Where my family comes from in India (Assam, Northeast India) There is a form of play where the men portray both men and women, and in one of the dance forms (Sattriya) Men wear both male and female costumes, as do the women.
Edit: some more information.
The monks who mainly keep the dance and religious traditions alive grow out their hair and shave their beards so that they can “present themselves to Krishna in the feminine form”
Indeed, people are loathe to acknowledge it, but it is very much a religious phenomenon.
Transgenderism is similar to transubstantiation in Catholicism. When a man says "I identify as a woman" it is similar to when the priest says "this is the body of Christ". They both 1) are statements of identity. 2) are trans 3) are objectively and a scientifically impossible and thus 4) require supernatural intervention to occur and 5) are taken on the basis of faith.
I am Catholic myself, so I can appreciate the transgender religious beliefs. However, when people start trying to force those beliefs and their associated practices onto others, then they cross the line into bigotry
@@KarateCowboy05 totally. Religious bigotry is religious bigotry. I have a fascination for Catholicism, as most of my friends are. I also know Latin so there’s that lol.
You also got a cool ass username.
I wouldn’t say being trans is “scientifically impossible” as that using medicine to alter your biology is literally the point of medical transitioning. There is socially transitioning which I believe you are referring to here.
@@KarateCowboy05 Absolutely r*tarded statement from you.
@@KarateCowboy05 Hey gonna step in here, I myself am a trans woman and while we have a long history with faith we are not scientifically impossible nor a belief. Religions for entire human history have often incorporated us just as they do to explain other aspects of life. But biologically trans women are not the same as cis men, nor cis women for that matter but we are far closer. So while it is impossible for us to be cis women. We are very much women. Just trans women, I'd be happy to explain more if you wish! This is also why transgenderism is considered an unfactual and almost offensive term, as this is not a religious or faithful belief.
Everyone told me about your channel today. These videos are so good. I expected nothing less. Keep up the great work!
- Anthony
23:17 "the rainbow road might be long and perilous, but at the end of it you can be sure there is a finish line." Not only is this a great quote, but also a great mario kart reference which I refuse to believe was an accident. 10/10
I THOUGHT THE SAME THING!
the finish line is a noose
@@mrossknedon't knock it til you try it
@@Peasham stay furious lmao
@@mrosskneYou're the only one mad here. This was a happy thread until you showed up.
Conformity is why my family and friends were accepting when I came out as a trans man but have a hard time wrapping their head around the fact that I still like men. To be exact, I’m bisexual, I have always been bisexual even before I realized I was trans. I don’t see why my sexuality has to change just because my gender has changed.
Yeah it's so funny to see how deep heteronormarivity goes. When I came out as transfem, even totally accepting people suddenly thought I was also now attracted to men, even of they knew I was not previously
yeah some people don't get it. ive always liked women, that didn't change. im a lesbian.
"I'm a girl now"
"Ok"
"I still like girls"
"WHAT???"
@@PoisonFlower765 literally me.
Don't worry, I have a friend who's also bisexual and he's also into men. I just kindly tell him I'm not interested in that type of attraction, but I do know you like it the most, and that's fine to be that way. I may be attracted to females (Heterosexual here) but I do know bisexuals that are more attracted towards men like the gays and homosexuals are as well.
This was such an informative video to watch and I really enjoyed watching it, you obviously put a lot of time into this video and I thank you for it!
some interesting historical context on homosexuality in east asia (in particular china since that's what i'm most familiar with) before the 8th century and the buddhist resurgance in china, homosexual relationships were common enough that several emperors had male concubine's/partners, which they often favoured over the female ones. wakashu in japan was a practice of young boys being (essentially exploited unfortunately) for sex with older male mentors and was often considered a rite of passage.
before the influence of neoconfucianism and buddhism (which would be the modern ideas of 'conformity' mentioned in the video), these same-sex relationships were fairly accepted and documented. however, they were (like many straight relationships of the time) often equally to do with power as with attraction.
it is important to note that most modern social values in east asia ARE influenced by the spread of christianity and western value systems and not discount the effect of "external influence" - i.e. trade/colonialism on asian culture. this also explains to some extent why asian culture is much less persecutive of gender/orientation non-conforming people, as the drive isn't as ingrained as the video may present it to be.
not a dig on the creator, just a footnote!
I played The Thousand Year Door in French and was thinking "what is he going on about, who could anyone have missed that Vivian was trans" at first. I had no idea how different the localization was between both versions.
I know this wasn't the point of the video, but it made me realise something. As someone who grew up playing games in French and is now using the internet mostly in English, I never considered that localisation may sometimes be what creates the rifts between my understanding of some characters or plot points and the understanding most people I see online seem to have. So thank you for bringing up that extra detail.
Oh and ofc the rest was very interesting, and I'd be delighted to listen to more historical detail in whatever you produce next haha, even if I understand the desire to make more digestible content.
In a way I'm weirdly glad that I got into a fandom that was... notorious for chucking out nuance when translating into English, so much so that the whole fandom literally re-translated EVERYTHING with translation notes and editor notes on even the battle tics. (Love ya OG Megaman community)
You kind of _know_ who in the English speaking part of the fandom read the retranslated scripts VS the Capcom-massacred English translations from the little quirks and details that shift (as an example, the Megaman Classic CD Database that sums up the Robot Masters also has different profiles in Japanese and English, so some Robot Master personality traits are unique to the English side or to the Japanese side (and some of us just wad both of them up together and if they conflict Japanese takes precedent)).
Vivian is not trans.
@@yoman8027 yes she is
@@yoman8027 Yes, she is. The Italian localization even explicitly mentions her transition into a woman.
@@Americanbadashh The Italian localization is simply wrong. The original text explicitly states that Vivian "looks like a girl but is in reality is an otoko-no-ko".
I like how Moon says he doesn't want to go on tangents regarding side content as if we wouldn't eat it up. At least I would, this stuff is great!
i for one would welcome another 1.5 hour long video by him!
Reminds me of that one time Dan Olson said in a video that he had to simplify things to avoid going over 15 minutes of runtime.
He has now released multiple feature-length videos, which are among his best-known and most-watched.
i'd love to see the points for more transmasculine sides video game representation. great video!
I love so much that you bring the nuances of Japan culture and I would like to lend my voice to the ones that are arguing for you to keep up with the history part of the videos!
I'm a Mexican transgender woman living in the USA, in a very conservative state. Here, the views about trans women and gay people vary from state to state but acceptance seems to be where society is moving towards which makes me extremely happy.
Growing up in Mexico I forced myself to hide any femininity from any of my actions out of fear of rejection, especially from my own family and now that I've been out of the closet for years, I see that it was wise of me to hide at that age, when I still depended on my family financially.
Stay safe out there trans sisters, brothers and non-binary family, love always wins, don't lose hope.
Acceptance is great and all I just hate how LGBTQ trys to shove their beliefs down everyone else's throats their no better than the Christians in Bush Era. Christians use to bully gay people and now the gay people bully Christians. Like the recent school shooters were trans shooting up Christian schools.
Yes, but I think it's just that it's great to know there are people like you out there that are open to being transgender, it's just that I'm afraid that LGBTQ influence may be too strong to where it has as much power as the government does (much like what Black Lives Matter & Antifa/Anarchists are . It's like letting the new age movement gain so much more power over the people than the government that founded the constitution or the country in the first place. So I wouldn't say banish LGBTQ people, rather, businesses, people, and communities should decide what to do when Pride Month comes around, and whether they can opt in or opt out of Pride month. This way everyone can feel calm and happy, as well as respecting each other, regardless of sex. But where I have the problem is forcing minors under 18 to switch genders or teach them about genitalia and sex at a very young age, and that I hope many people in the LGBTQ do not agree that's what makes LGBTQ who they are, a safe school type of society (I hope not).
However, LGBTQ, much like Pedophilia and Terrorism, has existed since human civilizations have formed in 10,000 - 5,000 B.C. (Estimated time points but not exact).
The thing is, bringing up Pride Month is like bringing up Autism Awareness Month or Disability Awareness Month. It's strange, uncanny, and weird, and yet, those people exist. But much like Autistic people, LGBTQ children get made fun of, bullied, and harassed because of how they act or appear towards other people (and it's a shame really, I think everyone should be given respect regardless of appearance. But I have a tolerance to how much influence the LGBTQ person should do to me. Again, I would just tell them kindly that it's great they know this stuff and I know it as well, but I wish to not associate myself with the LGBTQ group because of the fear of backlash or hatred towards me or those I'm near. And believe me, I do know a transgender and bisexual person, and even then, I'm still good friends with them, and I do respect the transgender as a man, even though I already know from their outside appearance as a female. But I still respect them nevertheless, it's just that I rant about LGBTQ to myself, and never bother to share it with others except those I know close to heart. And even then I don't share it on here at all.) However, I do know how many people feel when it comes to LGBTQ+. It's something that people whom are Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, and others feel when it comes towards other people. And to be honest, I know they aren't able to be opened due to criticism and hatred towards an LGBTQ, but sadly that's just how humanity is. From what I've heard from a transgender, only 1% of the population is LGBTQ people, the majority is literally heterosexual/straight (or straight/cis as many LGBTQ like to call it, considering we need two names to classify our gender for some reason, it came from a tumblr webpage talking about LGBTQ pronouns and language as if English has a third variation. First one is broken english, second is english, and third is LGBTQ english. Just saying).
That's my opinion when it comes to LGBTQ, but since 2015 we have to celebrate it every june, the same month as christianity month...Now if only corporations, businesses, and companies had an opt-out option to not celebrate LGBTQ, that's a win in my books.
❤❤
I hope you're safe where you are
Love always wins, that why love also those who think otherwise and has different values, this goes for everyone who isn't causing or bringing harm to others. Live and let live, the west has accepted lgbt for a long while now, with a few old school religious people (especially muslims) hate and will try to stop others, but remember your family is your family (especially in your case where mexicans have the "love your family no matter what" instilled) so this will always go in a case by case basis. Family will always accept family, hell some even forgive their children and siblings when they go as far as become thieves and/or kill people.
Where am i going with all this? I wish people stopped fighting with the animosity they've been, and i really wish they left the kids alone, everyone, not just lgbt, let kids be kids, grow up and decide by themselves who they are and what they want to do in their life.
You mentioned it in passing but it’s something that really resonated well with me, it’s about how characters can become icons despite the original intention. That is why representation is so important, Poison and Birdo became trans icons to some simply because they are transgender even if the original intention might’ve been to mock or even advocate violence.
I loved that part too! I almost got chills.
@@KnallisSillan know that feel. Felt something similar when hearing "Tomorrow belongs to me" from Cabaret.
ywnbaw + 52%
@@TheCoolestEverI im sorry?
Samus Aran is declared by some as a Trans icon due to an interview comment from one of the staff back in the day. I think they joked that she was "newhalf"? Basically pre-op trans woman.
A fantastic video essay, I appreciate the nuance and context! But when you illustrated Denmark with kamelåså it transcended into pure art
This was a great video, this type of content is definitely really good for people to watch and take with them as a means of understanding this topic with a more nuanced and varied understanding.
I love how you've done your best to be respectful of both East Asian and Western views on this topic, but also be respectful of the Queer side of things as well. This video made me a very happy trans woman.
Tf is queer
@@GuY-ExEit was basically a slur used against gay people a long time but has now been accepted by the LGBT community as a way to describe it from my understanding.
@@fragrantshirt6302 Queer is used as an umbrella term now. It's basically another way of saying you're LGBTQ+
@@fragrantshirt6302 ah ok thnx
You will never be a woman.
moon 😭 i was having such a tire fire of an evening and i can’t tell you how validating it was to just heard a nice person calmly talk about trans and gnc folk and our long history. like others have said, this video is way too short 💞
I am so glad to hear that video brought you a bit of joy and validation on a lousy day! That was the original intention of the channel, and it is still a goal I hold close to my heart.
You know, this explanation has made me understand Naoto's arc in persona 4 more. In their early portrayal in the game there are indications that they might be a trans man (way they dress, comments made by their inner self/shadow about wanting to become a man), but later in the game the protagonist can encourage them to be more feminine, and in the epilogue of Golden at least they are seen dressing and acting more feminine.
Seen through a western lens this looks pretty bad and transphobic, suggesting the idea that Naoto wanting to act like a man is wrong and that they would be happier if they acted in a way to conform with their birthgender.
However, seen through the eastern lens that you explained here, the story seems to be more like: Naoto wants to be a detective, which is considered to be a male job, and therefore they think they have to be a man to confirm to society's view of what a detective is. Yet they don't actually feel like they want to be a man, and the protagonist tells them they can both act like a woman and be who they want to be (a detective, not a man). Seen through this lens the story of Naoto loses the transphobic connotation and becomes more about female empowerment.
Except then you realize that the game portrays her possible transition as the literal worst thing that could happen to her and it loops right back 'round to being transphobic.
@@Peasham Ah, don't take my musings the wrong way please. I won't argue that the portrayal of Naoto as it ended up being does not have transphobic elements. I just have a better understanding now of how that storyline came to be.
@@Tesskr95 Yea it's just a lot of people misunderstanding the critique of Naoto's story, some people maybe say it's transphobic on its face but everyone I've seen complains about the transphobia, the literal fear of the fact that Naoto felt like she wanted to transition to fit in, with it seemingly being more horrifying in the game's eyes that she wanted to transition as opposed to her feeling like she had to.
Same goes for Kanji, it's not homophobic cuz he's not gay, as some people characterize it, it's homophobic because the game relentlessly mocks him for even appearing as possibly gay at any point in time.
Not that any of this is criticism of you, I'm just sayin, as they say.
@@Peasham ah yes, so if you're pressured to identify as the gender you were born as, that's bad, but if you're pressured to be trans, then that's okay! Grooming and gaslighting is fun! 👍
@@halfdemon2022You weren't even trying to connect what I said to your unhinged rant here and it is very funny
This was very interesting especially the part with Vivian.
I'm interested in looking into this more... but I've encountered so many of those articles and post that are negative or angry in the past... it's very draining...
and sometimes the article it's gives nothing and I'll actually gain more from the comments after reading the entire article.
I hope to learn more from information shown in the way it was in this video
as an Asian-American transgender man, I wanted to come out and say thank you for this nuanced, understanding video for pride month! though it didn't answer all my questions and definitely doesn't cover all the complexities, I appreciate the willingness to show support and provide some cultural context people might not know about. I would love to see a longer video on this topic some day!
Yea
See, resumed in few words, live and let live, japanese don't mind what you do with your body and how you want to present yourself as long as you abide the rules and you're not bothering anyone, hence why in changing rooms people with dicks go in the male side to avoid causing any distress as long as there are biological women using the female facilities.
Now, some japanese use the whole transgender, gay and vagueness to prank characters, make them uncomfy and to joke around, while others just do it because they just feel like it or as a critique towards their expectations put on men (reason for why it's always traps and effeminate boys dressing up, because men have it really bad in japan, way too many expectations and social pressure, from dating to work to society expecting you to be a stoic father).
In the end, it all depends on the authors, but the most common use of trans and gender ambiguity is to create awkward situations used mostly as comedy relief and sometimes for drama, or both! Take steins;gate for example, Ruka is used as a gag when people say he is prettier, cuter and more effeminate and attractive than regular women, but he is a man. But they also explore Ruka's wishes to "truly be a girl" (a biological woman) because that's how he felt in his mind.
Then there is One Piece with the KamaBakka Kingdom, where anybody can be whatever they want, but they mostly choose to be men dressed as women (although it is used for the sake of clarity that these people are "okama") just to be ridiculous and play pranks/jokes on others.
It's hard to pinpoint, but honestly, as most things in life, you hate to take it all in a case by case basis, since feminists tend to portray men as absolute icompetent morons and women extremely smart and competent and desired, mgtow the complete opposite, "woke" activists tend to paint everything gay perfect and everything normal as boring, bland and undesirable, religious people portray stuff as sinful and such... but of course, there are always exceptions and there is people who just want to tell a fun story and create entertaining videogames, instead of the AAA obvious pandering simplifying personalities to just " i am a woman, i am trans, i am a dumbfuck het man", so sick of it...
ywnbam + 52%
@TheCoolestEverI ywnba functioning member of society + go outside
@@Shilband He won't go outside, he goes on any channel even slightly pro-trans to comment the same two things 100 times
I think the lack of trans men acknowledged in all societies is the expectation for "women" to conform and submit more, also because it's taken less seriously in some ways and seen as a woman being immature.
to be fair some women ARE immature, and outwardly are, men who are immature are getting beaten up by their peers so they are not seen as much. so long people don't treat everyone equally there will be no equal expectation
In societies with super strict roles for women, trans men need to stay stealth in order to stay alive tbh... Patriarchy forces us into invisibility
@@fltfathin Geez, that's blatant sexism, you weren't even sneaky
@@fltfathinThat is BS and you know it
violent behavior in men, despite being incredulously immature, is promoted as traditional masculinity likes when men are insecure and violent, while women are subjected to imposed submission and those who don't submit are labelled as "immature", undesirable or deserving of psychological and physical abuse by men
oh yep absolutely! trans men are basically babie’d all of the time and seen as confused little girls, surely because of the overwhelming patriarchal presence in every culture, so our transition are rather met with a “aww poor little thing” sentiment. basically ignorant people will keep prioritizing agab over our transness and being afab means you are inherently at a disadvantage (cause yeah misoginy is a thing and it’s so deeply rooted in all of society and tightly entwined with trans issues that it gets hard to spot)
Revisiting this video I didn’t pay attention at 2:25 when Celeste was on the screen. Rewatching this now I did- and looked it up, and I didn’t know Madeline was trans, or the creator of the game! I played Celeste a few years ago at a very important time of my life, I took a lot of comfort in the game for several reasons but I always felt a deeper connection and now I know why! This video is a amazing, thank you.
What I find beautiful about Celeste is that it really isn't necessary to be trans to understand or recognize the struggles of Madeline, but according to my trans friends you do have a deeper understanding of her struggles if you are
There's a lovely 2020 post that Maddy Thorson made on the subject that's a really good read.
Similar to Birdo being trans, it's not a plot point in the game. Madaline is dealing with mental health issues, but there's no indication it's related with being trans, it's just something that was stated afterwards by the author. How much "word-of-god" matters, of course, is up to you (death of the author and all that).
very well done. waffling through articles and fan misinformation isn't easy, and you delivered a well researched, to the point explanation.
8:23 - "The origins of a symbol do not determine it's meaningfulness. Something can become a symbol even if it wasn't intended to be that way."
That's a great point to make. Kind of reminds me how the word "Queer" was originally used to be an insult towards LGBT groups, but eventually got adopted by them with a more positive connotation.
It helps that it lends itself so well to reclamation. The manner in which bigots lump us together gives us an umbrella under which to unify and prop each other up.
Or the bad ending: the swastika
@@pochiluis0570 Ongoing process. Currently, cultures and religions (notably Buddhism) where the swastika has been a symbol of life cycles, good luck or other qualities/phenomena for centuries, are trying to reclaim it and restore those original meanings in the greater collective mindset. There's no telling how long this process will take, but my heart goes to them and their struggle. ❤
wrong
@@yokaipinata1416 yeah i know about that. I meant to reference that the same thing can happen with symbols or expressions associated with good things, someone or something can happen either suddenly or progressively and make it be associated with something negative.
6:07 correction from a Fate nerd: The character shown here, Astolfo, is not actually trans. He is male and fully identifies as a male, he just likes how he looks in female clothing and doens't give a crap about social norms. This is somewhat puzzling if you consider your point in this video to be fully accurate, as Astolfo is never depicted as someone who struggles because of his looks or gender, he is insted extremely carefree about it. He is also a very positive and respected character, both in and out of the story. If we consider your point about the social conformity of gender transition, Astolfo is technically as defying of social norms as he can be: he is a male, that looks feminine, and has no intention to change his looks OR his gender
The intresting thing is that Astolfo's case is also anything but unique: male characters that like to look feminine just because they prefer to look that way are EXTREMELY common in japanese media, and they are often amongst the most popular characters in their shows. What do you think this tells us about Japanese society? Is this indicative of a change in prospective or am I missing something here?
Speaking of Intelligent Systems, they have a character like this in their most recent entry in the Fire Emblem series: Engage. Rosado is a male who does not express as a girl, but he enjoys cuteness and finding the beauty in things. So he dresses in girl-style clothes because they are cute, and even has a passion for art so he can capture beauty through drawings he can share with the world. And tbh, imo he's one of the more interesting, entertaining, and fleshed out characters in the game.
Fire Emblem as a series actually has pretty wide-ranging representation of gender expression and sexuality amongst its characters.
If astolfo is straight, then he's more conforming than a trans person, at least following Moonie's analysis of conformity in Japan. They explicitly said that feminine men are more conforming than trans women are more conforming than gay people in Japan.
So yeah, that's probably what you missed.
I think what's more indicative of change are mangas that are very casual about gay people slowly becoming more prevalent.
The moonie has been real quiet since this banger comment dropped.
Moon didn't say anything about Astolfo there, just showing him as an example, he mentions both trans and gender non-conforming in that part of the video, Astolfo clearly being the latter.
They also do talk about the otokonoko concept which Astolfo falls under.
@@radiofloyd2359 Astolfo is not explicitly straight, or gay, or anything in between for that matter. He is willingly ambiguous about it all because he enjoys messing with people, and he doesn't really care (this is important: he is not ambiguous about this because people around him find ambiguity to be more comfortable, he does it for the opposite reason) . This is a defining character trait for these characters: they will often engage in behaviour that could be seen as flirty, especially with a male main character, and then shrug it off with a "just joking~" or something. To me it seems like this kind of characterization has been chosen specifically to elude any kind of sexuality and gender classification, and the fact that this confuses people both in and out of the story, and that femboys, as they are often called, find this amusing appears to me socially disruptive in a very explicit way.
Im really impressed by this video! Super informative and positive, I was worried it would be... Iffy, when i saw the title.
I would kill to hear an hour long video essay about all those historical and philosophical subjects you sneakly sprinkled throught the video haha
Honestly it might be a bit meta and not originally intended but the idea that Poison might be seen as a woman by some cultures and as a man in others despite clearly at least wanting to have some level of femininity is weirdly on point for the trans struggle as a thing in general.
Yea like how one culture will tell you you're a beautiful woman with a full faced beard and presenting full male, and another culture will tell you even though you present as female as possible they're still gonna refer to you by your AGAB. One culture will say there's only 2 genders and transitioning is an abomination, while another culture will say gender should be abolished. Like wtf I just can't win with these people, I just want to be seen, treated and referred to as female in a natural and honest manner. I don't want to force people to speak in a manner that makes me not feel dysphoria, I want to look in the mirror and see my outside matching my inside, and I want to present to the world as I am. One culture tells me not to put any effort into transitioning while another culture tells me its pointless and harmful to even try to transition.
I thought America was about freedom, live and let live.
But I digress, I imagine most of that is just due to the lack of connection and community in online discourse and I may find that society at large is a lot less combative than it would seem based on the portrayal of things by the corporate media and social media that get payed more for more attention, and nothing grabs attention like negativity.
Please, do what makes you happy.
@@Psydkik That is such a wholesome and sweet, spontaneous answer !
@@neowolf09 - "I thought America was about freedom, live and let live."
It is, but that's clearly not enough for you... You admit it yourself, that's it's not about simply living but about being "seen, treated and referred to as female". You, and most like you, are narcissistic egomaniacs who expect special rights. That's the main reason so many oppose it, because it was never about equal treatment and always about special treatment. You can't force people to follow and obey your religious beliefs, which is what you want.
Most people just want to refer to you as your correct gender in a natural and honest manner, but that's apparently "transphobic". We can't even point out the fact that gender is tied to sex without being lynched by the fanatical trans religion.
If you truly believe in live and let live, then please confront your own community about it and stop pushing for fascism. Seriously, it's about time we made some genuine progress instead of regressing like this.
FINALLY a good video on this topic that doesn’t beat around the bush. It’s just straight to the point, and explained as simply as possible. This is why this channel is up there for one of the best video essay channels on CZcams by a long shot.
Actually this video was pretty bad. It misunderstands the Japanese subculture on this topic, assumes the western pseudoscience as correct, and pushes it onto other cultures where it doesn't apply. He gets half the details about birdo wrong as well.
@@Otome_chan311 The first sentence I don't know and I really don't care enough to research but yeah half of the things about Birdo was wrong.
@@Otome_chan311 Care to explain then?
@@Otome_chan311 sorry that science disagrees with you however it isnt incorrect just because you're too stupid to understand it.
This was fascinating and now I want the longer version with more of the history!
Japan treat gender non-comformity as a personality quirk and something to give a character something to make them stand out. They don't do it for political reasons or to send some kind of message about gender identity. It's just a writing choice to add something to a character so they are memorable.
They often play it for laughs as well, Japan still thinks "ha ha ha that boy behaves like a girl" is the height of comedy. Or they play it for drama because the boy is not being accepted for who they are on the inside.
Imagine having the gall to assert that an entire country of people never seriously explore gender because of some extremely specific media you just so happened to have seen.
@@Peasham I never said Japan never seriously explore gender, they just don't get so hung up on it they feel a need to make it a political statement.
@@PlanetZoidstar Except exploring gender seriously is a political statement, as it calls into question the stereotypes and traditions of your nation, if not its very laws and foundation.
This is like saying "Japan explores race seriously, but not politically", I'm sorry, but by every definition of the word, it is political.
And in fact this is deeply disrespectful to the artists themselves, to just assert that themes in their stories, that are sometimes major, are just there for your entertainment and not because the author wanted to say something when, often times, they probably did. Then again, you classified an entire country like this based solely off of extremely limited interaction with their media, so you're way past being disrespectful.
@@Peasham It doesn't have to be. Gender and Sexuality are not inherently political subjects, Japan understands that.
No it's not, I think it's actually cool that Japan can by apolitical while exploring gender and sexuality - that's how it should be. I think it's regressive to tie gender and sexuality so tightly to politics the way you're thinking. You can say something without it getting political or trying to make a statement beyond the text or the work.
You sound like a deeply unhappy person if someone (me) having an opinion triggers you so much. Maybe get off the internet if it upsets you so much?
@@PlanetZoidstar You didn't even read what I said at all, I could only repeat myself. I implore you to actually read what I wrote.
And yea, I kinda get peeved when people who aren't part of a culture and have only extremely limited if any knowledge of said culture assert that said culture must agree with their personal biases for no actual substantive reason, I do not see a point in glorifying a culture you proudly know nothing about and refuse to educate yourself on beyond anime.
Then again.. you don't even know what politics are, or are pretending not to know considering I just explained what they are, so that's not too surprising.
This was such an interesting video! I honestly would have loved a history deep dive on this topic lmao. As a queer person, it's been really interesting seeing queer rep in Japanese media like manga and video games due to how different it is here in the west, so this video was very illuminating. Thank you so much for the vid
I'm so glad that you liked the video, Zeke! I've been a bit worried that the video might not be that well received, given that I myself am not LGBT and may not be 100% aware of certain aspects. It brings me some comfort to see that the video has still been interesting and enjoyable!
Id watch moony talk about literally anything for hours on end, and considering i just finished a FOUR AND A HALF HOUR long video about trans issues yesterday I wouldn’t mind it being about trans history at all
@@moon-channel frankly I'd say the only thing that made me pause was your use of "transgenderism". generally Republicans use that to claim our humanity is actually just an ideology or political belief. I don't think you meant it in any harmful way, but its one of those words that makes me break out into a sweat if ya get me :) cool vid tho!
@enter-eagle I sincerely apologize for the word choice! I am a bit unplugged from the internet, and from TV, I suppose, and have not been following the discourse perhaps as well as I should. The word choice is born lf my own ignorance, and not malicious intent.
@@moon-channelAnother queer person here, and this is a thoughtful, informative video.
There's a *sea* of vitriol related to this topic, as you probably noticed during your research, and this sits well above it
I think one thing that was missed was that some of these characters were created due to certain kinds fetishism in Japan. When they make their way to the USA and people applaud them for including diverse characters, the Japanese developers just smile and say "Suuure, that's totally what we were doing all along".
There is a massive difference between futanari and trans characters.
@@Peasham Sure but that's not what I'm referring to.
@@someonlinepersona I'd love to know what "fetishism" you're referring to then.
@@Peashamof real trans people
That's true with a lot of characters no matter the type of person. Reasons why something was created does not inherently make said characters bad, if the end result is still respectful and accurate. Maybe I'm mixing up passion for a subject one might also find sexually attractive with fetishizing something, but the point of why something was originally created does not make the end product bad just for it should still make sense.
Thank you for researching multiple localizations for ttyd. You have no idea how many times people have used a blanket statement to say that it got censored in localization, which really frustrated me as a spanish player.
What a fascinating topic! Thanks for breaking this down and explaining the cultural differences. Your channel is rapidly becoming one of my favorites for its deep dives on complex topics.
I had no idea vivienne's trans identity was erased in english and german, that sucks ! I played the game in french and was really moved by this part of the story as a kid.
Also on the topic on countries being more advanced than others : france is considered culturally progressive, (for example we have great worker rights) but its definitely not true in every area. I know we're really behind on the topic of autism and neurodivergency, whereas the us has a great understanding of it. Parents of neurodivergent children even move to belgium sometimes so they can receive better care for their family.
While in a way it sucks that Vivian's "trans-ness" was removed in those languages, part of me kinda likes it. While most people will look solely to the original script or the script of their own language for "canon," the way I choose to interpret Vivian in English is that she identifies as female and is indistinguishable from one. As such, there is no real need for her "trans-ness" to be brought up. As far as anyone within the English version knows or sees it, Vivian is a woman. And I think that is nice. If a character can be a woman without it ever being stated that they are a trans woman, they've fully achieved representing the identity they desire. I've certainly met trans men that I never would've guessed were born female if I hadn't been told as much, and I'm happy for them.
Did you miss the part where he talked about otokonoko culture in Japan? Not the same thing as trans.
@@NekoBoyOfficial I believe that she can still be a trans woman and refered to as an otokonoko since it's a "catch all" term in japanese. It refers to both trans women and crossdressing men (and also gay men, crossdressing women...) so it can be hard to understand exactly what it means in some contexts.
Ex : Armstrong in Ace Attorney 3. Pretty sure phoenix refers to him to an otokonoko in japanese, because in the eng ver. he says something like "is he a man or a woman ?". The translation team also expressed it was difficult to translate their gender identity from the japanese context, and said they interpreted it as 'a gay man with a drag persona'.
TLDR otokonoko means a lot of things so you can technically interpret vivian as either a trans girl or a crossdresser ? The french translation gives the impression she's trans but who knows. Sorry if you knew this already xo
@@KStarPR true, its nice for a character to exist as trans and not have their identity pointed out ! Sort of like madeline in celeste. Personally, I love that Vivienne's identity is explicit, since she was the first trans character i ever saw in media as a kid. That game sort of taught me what it was (and i loved her. I shipped her with mario xb).
@@Ugly_Girl_AngelNo otoko no ko refers to femboys and crossdressers.
It's always bothered me that there isn't as much FTM representation compared to MTF/presenting as female. That being said I love seeing all the trans representation in media, especially videogames! Loved this analysis, really flipped the way I view representation :00
Because nerdy stuff is made for me. Transexuals are just autistic crossdressing men, its obvious why.
I've noticed that ftm representation (or lack thereof) seems to be a very global issue. Speaking from a western perspective, transphobia is somewhat related to sexism. Many people don't believe Trans men are real men because they think they're just confused tomboys or whatever. But Trans men aren't put in the spotlight as much as Trans women are because of sexist stereotypes of men being sexual predators and women being soft and harmless, and of course these stereotypes are unfortunately applied to Trans people too.
Yeah, the only example that I could make is Anasui in JoJo, as in the manga he appeared way more feminine even having breasts in an early on appearance. And his ability is able to rearrange objects subsurface including anatomy so there’s an easy explanation to explain how he got so male-reading in the middle of a prison.
Especially with a transphobic doctor in said prison, who was shown in a manga-only scene misgendering an explicitly-stated ftm prisoner, that was during when Jolyne asks why a man is on the woman’s side of the prison. Btw Jolyne is more keen on this changing world than that doctor in this scene.
yeah, frustrates me when all we get is, "tomboys". And they act like being a masculine woman is the same as being non binary or trans, when it isn't.
I don't know if it's just me but from what I've seen trans men seem less common than trans women
I personally know and am friends with 4 trans women while I've only ever known 2 trans men
amazing video! wish there was some commentary on the transmasculine side-there are absolutely fewer traditional examples of it in games like these or else it would have been a part of the discussion, but I think it would still be great to acknowledge in this discussion that there is a lack of representation on that front (and even people falling outside of the traditional binary). keep it up, love your channel!
15:53 point of order, Bridget seeks out to be masculine BECAUSE she saw how much it upset her parents to force her to present as something other than her assigned sex. So she sought out to prove that a male twin could be successful. And when she managers to prove that between games XX and Strive the superstition went away. After the fact as she wandered, bounty hunting, she felt more hollowness in herself. This led to her transition ultimately in spite of what people expected of her thus making this action transgressive (no pun intended). I say this because Guilty Gear has always been counter-culture and Bridget’s transition is very much part of this.
Yes
Based
Not very counter-culture stating if someone acts like and dresses like a girl despite saying otherwise then they must be a girl.
@@bartvshomer Bridget says she's a girl, my guy.
@@bartvshomer L
I like the ending where you highlight "empathy" as key. So much of conflict boils down to wanting one's own worldview to be the truth, and thus they deem others wrong, trying to change whatever opposes their own. We are all so different, yet we live on the same blue planet. And I believe always leaving spaces to understand each other is the long game we should play.
Also nice channel name :)
On the topic of Japanese explorations of gender-nonconformity, there's this old '70s manga that was later turned into an anime that became very famous in Italy of all places called "Roses of Versailles", which is a historical-based drama with mostly historical characters in the years leading to the French revolution, with the exception of the main fictional character Oscar François de Jarjayes, who is a woman born into a military family whose father, tired of being unable of siring a son, decided to raise Oscar as a man.
Even though the Italian version of the anime, that aired in the '80s and '90s, tried to censor some stuff, the lesbian and transgender themes of the series were kinda impossible to hide, so much that Oscar became a little of an icon of the LGBT community here in Italy.
Don't forget Tezuka Osamu's Princess Knight that came before it! It had its issues, but for the 1950s it was ahead of its time.
(The Japanese version anyway, the American translation edited out everything that made it what it was.)
Yeah! I loved Lady Oscar (as they adapted it here) as a child, didn't even realized that she was supposed to be a sort of genderfluid/nonbinary/transmasc/lesbian rep
There are so many inaccuracies in the first history and culture section
1. "Emerging as recently as 1950s", which disregards the research into transness from Magnus Hirschfeld, who studied it and other lgbt issues in the 1920s and 30s, in Germany. Unfortunately, his research was quite literally burnt to the ground, with his institute being one of the first things destroyed by the Nazis.
2. Eunuchs are not an example of early transgender people, and are more accurately considered a third gender or arguably unisex.
3. Finally, male actors portraying female roles was not always an example of early drag, and moreso an example of sexism at its finest. Woman were too unreliable to even play the part of a woman in a play, it was instead a man's job to do it, though often it was a younger boy who was doing it, as they had a more feminine appearance. The actors themselves, as far as we can tell, were not in any way closeted trans or proper drag, which are a separate phenomena.
I didn’t even know someone could be so stupid to not know why younger boys played women in plays, although the Shakespeare era is the only specific one that I know of where they did this.
I wish you talked more about the historic/philosofical part in the video, i personally love to know this social context. Really great video man, you just got a new sub!
It’s sad that just talking about trans people is something considered “controversial” now :(
:(
Yea
i mean, its an improvement if you consider that talking about trans people before was taboo
at least we can talk about it now
@@spooney6388 I mean, it hasn't been controversial in most western countries and casually accepted as a thing that exits for the last dozen or so years. But hey, humans never learn and fascism happened, again! Woooo-
I rather settle for a reality where your average uninformed person needs to be explained what trans people are and just shrug and accept it, than that same , still uninformed, person chanting death to all X at a political rally, unfortunatly , one of these realities is an easy way into goverment office for soulless ghouls
@spooney6388 That's true!! It's sad that it's taking so long but progress is progress and we'll get to a world where being trans is more accepted eventually!!
its really interesting that in a lot of queer/trans media ive seen in japan they're always straight after transitioning. I liked the manga "boys run the riot" but being bisexual and nonbinary myself, i relate able to relate to the feelings the main character felt when it came to being a straight trans person. I'm glad people are out there making representation for that kind of person, but I wonder how someone who feels like me in terms of my gender and sexuality but lives in japan, feels about the way nonconforming presentations are treated.
If the assessment that "being gay is more transgressive than being trans in Japan" is true... I think that's your answer. Hopefully, as queer relationships become more accepted, as more queer genders are becoming more accepted, we'll start seeing more stories about non-straight trans characters (possibly influencing that acceptance as well).
Anecdote here but. As far as homophobic transphobia in a "western" country where I live, I know someone who was scared to come out as a trans guy because he was afraid he'd be accused of "faking being trans"... because he was attracted to men. He thought he couldn't be both trans and gay. And there certainly are transphobic assholes who call gay trans men as "women who are fetishizing men to the extreme", it's terrible. So we have some problems in that category as well.
Great video! I always learn something from your work and greatly enjoy the presentation along the way.
Hey, haven't watched the video yet, might later, but just popping my head into the comments to applaud the thumbnail art. That layout work, spacing, and concept is genius
I really liked that you didn’t say that one country is better than another regarding this topic - instead you set everything in perspective by giving cultural backgrounds.
Thank you so much for your great videos! With your channel you are promoting a word view that is constructive at its core. I feel that content like yours is so desperately needed within these times.
Lots of love!
Killing people and subjugation based on gender is objectively not a good thing.
Oh boy, a neat video about gender and video games! I'm sure the comments will be lovely and constructive 😃
But fr, this was a really nice "broad strokes" video! I don't think I've seen anyone mention the specific facet of japanese culture that you did in a video like this before. Either way, every video like this counts. Thanks for making it😊
This was such an excellent video!! Really goes into the socio-cultural aspect of design in a way unique to the East Asian experience
Vivian having subtle representation was a huge factor in my personal journey of accepting trans people as beautiful and valid. I fell in love with her character first, then learned years later that she's trans, so instead of falling for all the anti-trans propaganda, I was able to take that childhood experience and see that yeah, trans people are just regular people who are trying to live their lives. Vivian, despite enduring torment from her sisters, was still a kind person. She helped Mario when he had no memory of who he was, when she could have just as easily dismissed him or taken advantage of his loss of identity. She demonstrated true kindness and empathy to someone who was completely lost and vulnerable. My real life experience with my own girlfriend, who is trans, mirrors this. She is the kindest, most understanding, and most accepting woman, or person, I've ever met. I faced some of the darkest moments of my life with her and not once did she do or say anything that wasn't kind, supportive, or empathetic. I cannot overstate how much she means to me and how much she has changed my life.
Sorry, but Vivian isn't trans. Otoko no ko refers to basically just femboys & guys who look feminine. It's actually people on western social medias that have been trying to change the meaning of the word :)
"beautiful" lol
@@vssvqwwp337 It's so clearly a fetish. That's probably the main reason they fall for the trans propaganda, they get off from it.
@@buildman126Eh, that's really reductive, because otokonoko is applied to trans women often enough. Like with drag queens in the west, for "3d" applications of the word, when it involves real people in the real world, a lot of otokonoko in Japan are trans women. Also mirroring western culture concepts like drag queens and "s!ssy" culture, there are natal/cisgender girls and women who are otokonoko. Meaning women who play a male character that's a crosses dressing pretty boy. Otokonoko is also a very new term still, it originated sometime between the very late 90s and early 2000s in Japanese internet and manga culture. As such otokonoko has no fixed definition and is a fairly nebulous concept. Its meaning also still hotly debated to this day. One common understanding by most people is that pretty and feminine looking guys, who are otherwise typically masculine, aren't otokonoko. They're bishonen,, aka beautiful/pretty boys. Which is considered to be one of the most handsome looks in Japan for men. As beauty standards for men there skew towards the more feminine, cute, and youthful. As such it's generally accepted that otokonoko requires either cross dressing, or obvious gender non-conformity for a character who otherwise presents as male. There's also the continuing debate of if otokonoko can be applied to "3D” as in people in real life. Instead of exclusively being "2D” as in characters in manga, anime, video games, and live action tv and movies. Also a lot of trans women in Japan will refer to themselves as otokonoko, josouko, or similar. Especially when they're early in transition, or still mostly in the closet. Just like how a lot of trans women identify as cross dressers and the like at that same stage.
As for Vivian? She's definitely trans. She's *only ever* referred to as "otokonoko" once, in her Catch Card in the Japanese version of Paper Mario: The Thousands Year Door. Which indicates either, that there was a miscommunication between the story and catch card writes, or that Nintendo included it as a fairly weak attempt to dodge controversy. It's all but explicitly stated that she's trans. She exclusively refers to herself as female and vehemently rejects being identified as male. Despite having been "born as a boy." That's as explicit as you can get in showing that a character is trans, without outright saying "they're transgender." So saying Vivian isn't trans in either the Japanese, or English version of the game? That's cope. Because it's obvious that she is indeed a trans woman.
I say all of this being someone who is trans, a haffu, and has spent her whole life living between Japan and the US.
@@natsume-hime2473that explanation was so good... all i can say is thanks 💙💓🤍💓💙
Very much appreciate that the point of your video seems to be to encourage an understanding of other cultures. I have heard many people on both sides of the equation talking about how terrible the other side is for not understanding their position, but I hardly hear anyone talking about how hard they try to understand the position of others.
"Trans people just want to live their lives in peace without fear of legal persecution for existing, and bigots want to strip them of rights and deny their identity. I see both as equally valid positions worth defending!" - this comment.
@@ravenfrancis1476Did you not watch the video? He never indulged with any transphobic arguments
@@huldanoren951 I was referring to the comment I was replying to, not the video as a whole.
@@ravenfrancis1476 But the comment you replied to was talking about cultures, too? And it's not been edited? Did you maybe misread it? Did you reply to the wrong comment? I'm very confused right now.
@@Shalakor It talks about how "both sides of the equation" are "talking about how terrible the other side is". That's not really relevant to the cultural analysis part of this video, which is already iffy since it compared drag/crossdressing and castrated men to trans women.
I love how relatively short videos for this channel are still 25 min 😂 This channel is such a good education resource
This was so interesting to learn about! I didn't know or understand how being trans could be seen as more socially-conforming than other queer identities, such as being gay, but it makes a lot of sense from a cultural perspective. Also nice to hear the full background on Birdo because I was always confused about that
Great video! Thank you for sharing!
Nice video! Having raised in an East Asian culture, I’ve always been fascinated by issues of genders and it’s portrayal in Asian media, and it brings some thoughtful reflection to a couple of my favourite characters. I just finished Naoto Shirogane’s story (including social link) in Persona 4 Golden - at first I found it a bit meh, but after thinking about it and watching this video, I find the character arc to be very thoughtful and powerful! When she reaches the point of accepting her playful personality and womanhood, it wasn’t denying any form of transition, rather she is coming into compromise of the true self she has been repressing for societal conformity - so it makes sense why she would awaken a persona and subsequent reawakened persona(s) as the social link maxes out. Naoto’s performative male gender was acted not as a reflection of individualism, but to be accepted in misogynistic and mature Japanese police culture. So her arc of balancing of self-acceptance and surrounding acceptance echoes well with trans/nonconforming gender as an act of conforming in Asian society.
Naoto’s story reminds me of Oscar from the Rose of Versailles (alternatively translated as Lady Oscar), another popular comic/anime in Japan that features a woman of non-conformative gender role. (I think Naoto’s second reawakened persona gave tribute to this iconic androgynous character with some design choices). Oscar was born a woman but raised as a man to success her father’s career as a general (since he couldn’t let his older daughters to do that and he became desperate), so again she is conditioned to fit in a societal norm. While she’s comfortable with her non-comformative gender behaviours, I personally think she’s more radical with her embracement of female identity than to sustain a male gender, especially when she, in one instance, telling the world that she is happy being a woman in her androgyny thus not needing to dress feminine for marriage candidates, then at the end (spoiler) uses her martial arts, military expertise and charisma to rebel against her respective royal authority and partake in the French Revolution that brought to her heroic death. (spoiler ends) So it’s just part of her rebellious character to be fully embracing her being the woman she so desires, even though that doesn’t fit societal norm! I think both Naoto and Oscar’s stories show how one can live an empowered and meaningful life while accepting the gender identity they have given themselves; even when their gender are societally seen as inferior, they choose to embrace it as part of their beautiful selves and be just as strong as they are. I think there’s a good reason why they’re both popular in Japan. Excuse the long comment but I hope these born-women characters add to the discussion!
Which is also why it feels very reductive when people call characters like those trans, because it denies their own journey and purposeful ambiguity.
Oscar being a woman is a key part of the story, as is her never denying it throughout the whole narrative.
Something that I find kind of funny but also like about Naoto is that in the Arena games (which are canon and take place after P4 Golden), Naoto has gone back to the masculine presentation seen throughout most of Persona 4.
In part, I think this is because Persona spinoffs have a weird tendency to not want to "spoil" the plots of the games they are sequels to as much as possible-they also go out of their way to avoid overtly referencing any content that could only be viewed as the result of an optional player choice. Hence why characters who had evolved personas tend to have their initial Personas in sequels/spinoffs unless the evolution was an unavoidable event (see the P3 cast), and why the MC of a given game is never dating anyone specific in spinoffs/sequels. Bascially, Naoto's initial appearance is their "official marketing appearance", not the feminine appearance at the end of Golden.
That said, as clumsy as this switchup is, I think it does something interesting for Naoto's character. It basically reconciles Naoto's "only presenting masculine for conformity" with Shado Naoto's dialogue that seems to heavily hint at a sense of actual body dysmorphia, by... basically accidentally making Naoto genderfluid. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Sometimes she's feminine, sometimes he's masculine! You just got to roll with it.
just think it's the same thing/problem as in Mulan: a WOMAN not being taken seriously for being a WOMAN.
@@kusawwwwww I get wanting to make sense of Naoto's inconsistent appearance, but the genderfluid shadow comment makes it seem like you didn't understand the shadows. They aren't actually "the true self". They're wild exaggerations born of self denial. They poke and prod the characters to make them deny further so the shadow can evolve and kill them. She doesn't actually have body dysphoria, the shadow was essentially making fun of her to piss her off.
Oscar's gender identity is a key difference between the manga and the anime adaptation. In the latter Oscar very much identifies as a man and openly rejects anything feminine at the beginning and reconsiders as she gets older. But that identity was partially the result of upbringing.
Manga Oscar, as you describe, is a lot more sure of where she stands on that front even if the rest of society isn't.
I'm curious what the motivation was for that particular change in the adaptation.
This video was extremely thoughtful and definitely helps me understand more of the nuance of being transgender, not just in the US but in other cultures as well. I always felt like the portrayals of gender-nonconforming characters in Japanese media were different from the similar type of characters in American media, but I never could really understand it. I usually did just explain it away as that Japan just does things differently, but it makes sense that it is about Japan's conformist culture versus America's emphasis on individualism.
There's actually a whole subculture that moon just erased, appropriated, and neglected to mention
Great video!! New to the channel and this was a very good introduction. Have a good day!
Wasn't expecting this, as this was recommended to me by youtube, but I'm grateful it did since it really opened my mind a lot!
So my hunch is right, it all revolves around the ‘Pandora’s Box’ of aged laws embedded into the ‘tradition’ and culture. But perhaps with the changing of the times around the world, we soon will be more welcome to understanding each other. Video games is quite a powerful media to bridge that connection and I for one appreciate the developers who can tackle that challenge and come out victorious. Another excellent video, Moon! ^^
this is so interesting!! thank you for doing this research into trans characters, I always wondered why there were so many "boys that were bullied for being feminine so they started dressing and acting like girls" in Japanese video games - I never would have thought that being trans could be seen as a type of social conformity!!
It isn't so surprising considering even in the west transgender is a form of gender role conformity.
You do realize that if boys like that dress up as girls they're not really trans do you ? They're just pretending to be the oposite gender to appease people, not because they choose or want to be.
Chihiro from Danganronpa is an interesting example
and I think you can make a strong argument to use her pronouns too, because that is how chihro wanted to be seen those around us a girl. Aka, us@@stephanierachel5641
SPOILERS
chihiro is not trans though. chihiro is a crossdresser, and dressing like the opposite gender doesn't make you that gender.
by the end of chapter 2, he says he wants to become stronger. it's clarified that the only reason he dressed up as a girl was because people said he was weak, causing that he'd change his appearance to look more feminine so no one would call him weak anymore. so, no, chihiro is not transgender.
Amazing video, glad you decided to explore this topic
Really intrtesting video! Thank you so much.
You're my new favorite content creator on CZcams. I can't believe how I didn't find this Gem of a channel so much sooner but here I am and I'm so glad. Love from Japan.
As a tangential note, I had to giggle every single time you showed the map of countries with the "Brazil Mentioned" image. So silly. Also yeah, nice video. I am looking forward to the history sections in your next video.
this was a sweet video its not often i actually get a youtube video reccomended that has anything to do with me, thanks
This was very interesting, and I learned a lot. Thanks!
I appreciate the section about Vivian, she was a childhood hero to me :>
I hope the negative comments don’t dissuade you from making further videos on queer related topics. Despite missing the mark in some parts, it’s evident that you were earnestly presenting this information (in an overwhelmingly positive manner, no less!) to people who are probably not engaging in trans representation discourse. Which is so incredibly important. Moonie, I look forward to seeing more videos.
And to the people leaving rude comments: I should not have to cite my queerness as a prerequisite to express my disappointment. Please remember that people like Moonie are not the people we should be fighting. Also, it costs $0 to not be mean.
Cope :)
this ^
@@buildman126 no u
You don't, yet I see people insist on doing it all the time
*does the mind blown hands* thank you for making this, it explains lots about the things in games I related to, but was confused about.
Great video also your voice is very relaxing ^^
Incredible video, love how well integrated to games yet educational and respect videos are. Closing line of “Rainbow road my be long and perilous, but there is a finish line at end of it” is beautiful
It also symbolizes that all this “q**** discourse” is a hopeless never-ending cycle.
@@cmyk8964Discourse breeds ingenuity why so pessimistic?
i think something to consider is how the "equivalent word" in different languages, or even different cultures using the same language can have subtly different meanings. Different people will hear the same thing and get a different connotation from the sentence, and both may assume the other is thinking the same way as them.
This is probably one if if not the most interesting video topics I've seen on youtube.
This was a very interesting video and aspects you touched base with.
im not entirely convinced of the collectivist vs individualist framing in this video, but i do recognize its hard to explore that particular nuance in 20 minutes lol. anyways i greatly appreciate any critical analysis that seeks to promote empathy and understanding first and foremost, and that is why this channel is becoming one of my favorites
I've found more than few holes in this myself when people have brought it up over the years.
It is an unquestionably reductive framing. But in my opinion/experience a few months of cultural immersion is still just the start of building a nuanced understanding of cultural differences, so what can you do? That's not a rhetorical question. I'm genuinely interested in better ways to explain cultural nuances because wow is it hard.
it's close enough to bring up the central difference: as to how transitioning is seen as transgressive in america broadly but an 'imperfect corrective measure' in japan (and in my personal experience, in many other parts of asia with very defined gender norms) and how that informs narratives about characters that don't conform to their respective society's expected norms
although I fully disagree with the idea that individualism is conservative (???) and collectivism is progressive (???). like the only thing conservatives do all the time is tell people to conform, and don't progressives focus on individual liberties and expression??
This is super interesting!!! As a transmasc person I still long for more transmasc rep in media, but Im happy to live with the transfem rep we get most of the time. I would absolutely love a longer version of this video with all the history and everything, this topic is very interesting!! Love the video
I wish we have more transmasc characters in Japanese media. Sadly, it’s considered different from transfem. I’ve seen.. an unfortunate lot of things considering it “a woman stepping into a man’s place” and all kinds of icky stuff.
Sucks that something I was so excited about, Sweethearts of 1989 turned out to be from a horrible person 😭
@@dx.feelgood5825 huh? the author of that has done nothing wrong. the only thing I've heard is he "drew something weird that I don't like" but dude. drawings don't count towards anyone being a "horrible person."
ughhh yeah i love any and all trans rep but the fact that i can count all transmasc rep i know of in media on one hand kinda bums me out 😭 we exist too
Wow, this was much more interesting and higher quality than I expected deciding to click on it to try and see what it'll be about since I had nothing better to do rn really
Moony I just finished viewing this vid and Im blown away. I read that youre trying to make videos that are wholesome without being overbearing and mature while still being relaxing and that was exactly how this felt to watch. Thank you so much for making this video I found it incredibly interesting and cant wait to see more of your vids in the futute!