Dangers using Auto Transformers and 230V Inverters in North America
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
- While its becoming popular to Throw an Auto Transformer at a 230V inverter for creating split phase, there are many unseen precautions that must be taken and observed in doing so. Simply following solutions and hacks blindly can be both dangerous and Costly
00:00 Introduction to this "popular" "solution"
01:11 Issue # 1
02:18 The Science between Isolated & Non Isolated
04:10 Inside the 230V European / International Inverter
06:15 A non solution to a problem - Grounding the Inverter, floating at 120V
06:48 A North American house wiring example, split phase explanation
12:47 Differences between an Auto and Isolation Transformer
13:12 Opening and modifying (removing bonding screw)
16:20 Opening and Modifying the PIP 8048Max
20:55 Issue #2
21:25 Transformer Sizing
22:35 In Conclusion
Ian is so on it his game is real unlike so many other vendors out there that will say and do practically anything to make a sale and give you no follow-up service.
Thank you sir hope to be making another purchase from you soon.
Good video Ian. That is a massive safety hazard if not dealt with.
Update: Signature solar sells a US version of the 5000ES, which is called the 5000US. The growatt america site has not even updated their marketing materials to reflect this change. The also added a schematic for running the inverter safely. I personally will stick to inverters that do not require an external autotransformer, but there seems to be a safe way to accomplish it. Growatt needs to update their marketing material though, because if someone buys a 5000ES on ebay, and a 5000ES from signature solar, and parallel them, you will create 120V on the ground on the case of one of the inverters. This could be very dangerous, and people would think that they are getting the same exact inverter, when in fact, they are not.
Signature solar added an update to their listing to reflect this issue.
Will, have you discussed with Signature solar?
@@darrendeloria3848 I need to. I was sick today, really bad fever and body aches. Will call asap and see what they say.
@@WillProwse I bet they will say that's why they specify it as off-grid only.
@@usa-ev that's not the whole truth though because they advertise this unit as being able to hook to the grid assist.
Does it make a difference if not Hooked up to the grid? I literally just went yesterday to Sulphur Springs Texas and spent a little over $15,000.03 inverters one transformer 3 48 V batteries. What do I do Will
Excellent point and also helpful tips on how to deal with this issue.
I have the 5000es ( purchased from you) but never connect to grid.
I have multiple isolating transformers for my 120v loads.
Use solar only for charging & chassis ground connected to metal of building and ground rod
Thanks so much for finally bringing up this problem. Long ago, I bought an MPP-5048MG directly from MPP Solar. Its neutral and ground are still bonded internally, as you said, and its single phase was at 240VAC with respect to them. So I used it as an off-grid system only and connected a grounding bare wire going all the way to the main panel to seek the earth rod. My Hybrid inverter and its subpanel are therefore both grounded but the distance is quite far, about 40 feet, so I probably need a closer earth grounding rod. I left the neutral from my toroidal auto-transformer floating to get my split phases to read 20VAC with respect to its neutral and 240 vac with respect to each other. So far I'm not getting zapped touching any of the enclosures. But you're right about removing that internal bonding screw to disconnect the hybrid inverter's neutral from its the ground and chassis. I agree and will do it, because it will allow me to bond my toroidal auto-transformer neutral to the grounding bus inside the subpanel without creating a short. Moreover I will connect that ground bus to a closer earth grounding rod about 6 feet away from it according to NEC codes in CA. Once done, all cables coming from this subpanel will carry a ground wire that actually will protect people from electrical shocks should one of the phase get loose inside any metal enclosure or appliance.
I'll insert a piece of mica sheet underneath those PC boards to prevent arcing, just in case..
I'll probably need to disconnect my grid's bare wire grounding then, so that the solar system is now completely independent of the main utility panel and avoid creating a ground loop.
Thank you for a very comprehensive and lifesaving talk!
I Run 18kw Of XW4860 X 3, 15 years Old & Self Install This INFO Very Good To Know Thank You !
Thank you for taking your time to explain the issues. I appreciate the explaining of bonding bolt as well as the discussion on inverter grid bypass functioning of autotransformer and how load imbalance could result in phase voltage imbalance in autotransformer, which in turn leads to high current imbalance between the 120V legs propagating throughout the entire line back to pole transformer. I have noticed this in my setup but never understood why it happened. Prior to see this show I have already acquired an isolation transformer, 240/120 15kVA and I hope to see the system working fine after almost two years of concerns.
thank you for posting a most indepth vid on a problem that can not only be expensive to fix but deadly.........
This guy knows his stuff especially for outside US. A real isolation transformer is highly recommended for isolation.
Thank you so much for finding that screw, it fixed my issue from the latest batch of signature solar units. Also thanks for putting time stamps so I could get right to the meat!
Thanks for posting this danger Ian! Seems many DIYers don't get "ground loops" either. Can't count the number of service calls I've had over the years from residential DIY subpanel installs within barns and out buildings...with mains panel feeds being bonded neutral and connected to separate grounds in outbuilding subpanels. If the distance from mains panel to sub in an outbuilding or other "perceived need" (backup generator in the outbuilding) for separate ground rods at the outbuilding are present, then installing an isolation transformer, 3 pole transfer disconnects, etc (defined as a separately derived system within the NEC) before the subpanel is required. "Well it works, so prove me wrong" mentality of unskilled non-tradesmen respects no published electrical safety/code compliance standards.
Great vide! Would it be possible to discuss a different installation which would be let's say "opposite" to this situation? What would an installation look like if somebody located in Europe with a European solar installation supplying standard 230-240 VAC, 50 Hz who wants to install a US inverter to provide 120 VAC, 60 Hz to standard US outlets?
Great information. Consider the GroWatt autotransformer. That unit can accept the inverter directly. Then to sub panel. Simple install.
My system is off-grid but I do have a 20 kW 240V generator. I'm currently on Outback but I am building a new system using 2x 5000ES and 1x Auto Transformer. My plan was to connect the generator to the AC in terminals on the Growatts. I'm curious how the generator will need to be hooked up to avoid any issue with the auto transformer?
Where can we find how to interpret the inverter model names, so we know which are for Europe or America?
And where can we compare features, so we can select the attributes we need?
Thank you!
Hi Ian, I am in the US with a different situation. I only have a 240V load to connect, but I want primary power from panels/batteries and grid power when not enough sun to power the load, or the batteries go flat. No autotransformer needed. Is removing the ground-neutral screw too dangerous then? My load is computer equipment that converts all the AC to DC with individual isolated power supplies. The ground wire should still pass through to the load devices, and I would get full 240 connecting L1 and L2 to line and neutral input to the 5000ES correct?
Great video and information. I am planning to use an autotransformer to go from 120V AC inverter output to standard split phase transfer switch. What issues should I be concerned about in that case?
So my question is , is it ok to connect 230V L-N on the US model Growatt spf 5000 es, where it does not have a neutral to ground connection? In my mind it should be ok because the difference in potential is still 230V and with no chance of shorting to ground because of the system. Also will this connection cause a 230v L-N output?
thanks for the heads up was getting ready to buy the 5000 from ss. any body know where to buy mpp lv6548? seams like the better option now.
Thank you for you’re teaching , I have a question if you could give me some input please & thank you I bought a 3-5KVA 230v Pure Sine Wave Inverter from EASUN Hybrid Charge Controller 48v & I bought a SIEMENS TRANSFORMER # MTOV100A Temp class 130 “ C - my house normally uses about 3 KW to 3.5KW a day what you’re idea should this transformer be able to work ? Thank you
Thanks for the great video Ian. It would be nice if you did a follow up one on what happens if that neutral wire gets lose on the Autotransformer.
Install a ground fault breaker
Are we assuming that the 50hz EU standard will auto correct to 60hz when plugged in to a US grid?
Can we get a link to that isolation transformer?
Love the video Ian very informative I am doing the 8000 watt inverter setup I'm curious where you got your 10kva Auto Transformer
Im using an old trace sw5548 and have picked up the trace T240 autotransformer. The inverter has its own transformer. Following trace manual for wiring in their autotransformer shows the same wiring. Will my system present as a hazard if I do add the transformer?.... Ah, I asked my question too soon it seems? This is a European issue with the way their power is delivered not a problem in the US? Just need verification because, as youve stated, our 230 transformers utility pole Y type delivers 120 each leg with common/neutral center.... correct?
Is the Sigineer power 6000w inverter prone to this problem?
Thanks alot for the info, wasn't aware of all that issues,
QUESTIONS:
Could you do an independent ground/earth for each equipments?
Also wired the grid to the inverter then the inverter to the house, so the power would be passing through or coming from the inverter all the time?
Or no grid(OFF GRID) all together.
Whats the model of that isolated Autotransformer you have on the floor?
Multiple grounds can create ground loops and circulating currents. This is a very bad thing that must be avoided. One ground at the power distribution box where neutral should be bonded. True isolation transformers with a center tap can be used for 240 or two 120 legs. However, without a reference ground the output voltage will tend to float relative to ground and can be problematic.
Excellent explaination-demo European v our wierd American system and using mismatched Euro-US components. Plus not a bad hair cut solution for winter either.
Excellent! Thanks
i believe victron works around this problem by having internal relay inside quattros (and maybe multiplus) for bonding l2 and ground and their autotransformer also has a relay that can be used to bond or not neutral and ground, you can program and activate these relays in various scenarios like bypass or inverting power, does that solution make it safe to use their 230 (euro) models?
I wish somebody had answered this question. I see some documentation about the "Multi" (not sure if Multiplus I or II or both) controlling the relay in the AutoTransformer. What I don't know is how it controls the relay. Is there a network wire or something that must be connected between the "Multi" and the AutoTransformer, or does it use the power lines to control the relay? We are trenching a huge 700 foot long wire between the inverter(s) and our AutoTransformer and so I want to make sure we put whatever communication equipment is required in that trench before I fill it in.
And I need to know the voltage for the AT relay...if it turns out that it's a 12V relay or something like that then it would defeat the purpose of the AT to allow us to push higher power over that long distance since we wouldn't be able to afford the relay cable.
It seems that the wire doesn't need to be large because the voltage that needs to get to the relay is small. I still don't know how much needs to get to the relay to make it work though. We are completely off grid so I don't think it matters for us, but I want to trench a wire just in case I'm wrong since I'm not digging up this 700' trench once I fill it.
You reference many times the importance of a "proper Isolation Transformer" but you didn't reference what model Isolation Transformer you're showing at around 12mins.
Can you update your video information and provide links to same/similar Isolation Transformers you recommend? Thanks!!!
Thank you for the video, I'm just a couple of days from throwing the switch on my setup so I guess I need to reevaluate.
Did you buy the European model? Then you are going to have problems
@@TheFatman819 I purchased 2 SPF5000 ES from signature solar with 1 autotransformer. How do I tell if it's a European model or not? I'll be 100% off grid but using a generator on low energy days. Do I not use the ground at all or is it ok to tie this to the autotransformer neutral?
@@TheBoweeble If you are going to set it up as off-grid then you will not have any issues at all. Additionally, Sig Solar has replied in the comments above that these 5000es models do not have ground and neutral internally bonded.
@Richard from Signature Solar can you share a link to where the schematic can be found?
Still shorts out after removing ground screw. Any other suggestions?
At 2:25, in many areas the the pole-top transformer shares the Neutral/ground between one lead of the primary and the center tap of the secondary. All ground rods (dozens/hundreds) are tied together. The US does not have a single scheme.
Thank you very much!
Can I get a 230V Inverter for off-grid use only for US ? will it work with my appliences?
Will I need remove the screw if I use the isolation transformer.
Thank you
Ian, if I’m not mistaken, even though I’m using 2 spf5000 inverters and 2 auto transformers, the issues you mention will not affect me since I’m 100% off grid. Is that correct?
I know you didn't ask me. But no it wouldn't affect you. He is saying bcuz neutral and ground are bonded in the main panel and the inverter has the ground from the main panel ,that the transformer in your home will conflict with the the one one the pole when the inverter is bypassing or using grid assist. If I understood him correctly it would mostly be 120 loads the 240 loads that don't require a neutral may also be less risky.
There have been some confusion with the lv6548 when it comes to the ground neutral bond as well. Would you please do a similar video for that model as well.
all you have to do is meter it and see what it says :)
The units seem to change state when they change between inverting and bypass mode.
For a totally off grid setup,would it work to disconnect the ground neutral bond as shown here in the video and then ground the neutral after the autotransformer to the ground with at least 2 ground rods? And then also bond the inverter ground/chassis with the autotransformer neutral.
For off grid nothing needs to be changed. The issue is with the grid's grounding getting tangled up with the autotransformer's neutral. If you take the grid away the problem also goes away.
BtW, grounding rods are mostly BS (unless discussing whole structures). Look up Mike Holtz for more details.
@@usa-evwell there is 120 volts from autotransformer neutral to ground, so one leg has hot and neutral backwards if wired into a traditional electric panel. If I had a way to bond the autotransformer neutral to earth ground I would feel much more comfortable but maybe this isn't possible without buying a medical isolation transformer.
@@laynenichols3681 True. I would suggest not connecting the output ground to the panel. Check my comment on the video for full wiring design.
If I want to use this inverter for only us 240v loads, can I have the grid connected without issues?
So now how do we use these inverters safe with grid as back up power?
Be nice if a link was put to the isolation transformer. Or a solution. I purchased in end of November and I'm sure they won't let me return my 2 5000s and transformer even though there still in the box
They should! I see one big "class action" suite coming against SS & Growatt!
I have been runing 5000es with auto transformer from Signature solar for Quite some time HF inverter is different in my inverter is not bonding to ground in my panel neutral is bounded to E ground hope that helps do your research may be European models ar different i dont now for sure..
Great video. I’ve come to the same conclusion - isolation transformer.
i been using A ST500 Transformer it s ok so far not shure how safe it is with it thank for sharing info
Very clear video on neutral bonding issues. Seems like a better solution to "grid tie" without selling power back to the electric company would be to buy a 48v battery bank charger and disconnect ac power from the inverter. Therefore, if you are lacking sun for several days, you can still top off the batteries with the grid. It would be a "partial" grid tied solution.
Hmm. This is a very interesting idea.
Would adding an additional autotransformer between the grid and the grid input of the inverter solve any issues? This would essentially be wiring it backwards, giving the inverter a neutral and 240v leg input as expected and that should solve the grounding / isolation issue, but not the fighting current issues. Am I correct?
No
No. It would likely make things worse and just burn a lot of energy in losses.
Liking the growatts for my work shed / treehouse idea but had pretty much decided on Sol-Ark for anything grid-tied. This put the nail in the coffin.
I have a 120vac inverter and am trying to get 120/240vac through the auto trans. I dont see a problem this way.
How do i know if i got us version or not?
At about the 10 minute mark the diagram shows the grid neutral tied through to the residence neutral. I think you can delete that connection, and use only the derived neutral from the autotransformer for the house. Am I wrong? Or would that work?
I see what you are saying. Just get rid of the feedback in bypass and always use the AT midpoint as neutral...but what happens if a 120 v leg becomes load imbalanced?
check the link posted by Proust DYI ....Does exactly what you suggested.
High frequency 230/240V inverters have no transformer on the output. Therefore Neutral and Ground will be connected, if not within the inverter but at the house power panel. Remaining L inverter output has 230/240V potential relative the N/Ground. To derive the 120/240V split phase US system from it an isolation transformer is needed. The auto-transformer will not work because it only works as a voltage divider but does not remove the N/Ground to L relationship. With an isolation transformer that takes 240V on the input and has 120/240V on the output, the middle output terminal can be connected to N and all is save afterwards. Low frequency inverter uses an internal isolation transformer to step up the battery voltage to 120/240V. Middle output terminal can be directly connected with N. 230/240V HF inverter can run 240V devices like A/C or pool pump but no 120V to N voltage will be available. Check out Genetry Solar for reasonable LF inverters.
Yes! Also, using true isolation transformers without proper grounding is extremely dangerous as the voltage levels can float several hundred volts above ground on the "neutral" side. If you THINK you have is right, buy a $6 ground/neutral/hot a/c power plug to check and make sure the three lines are working properly. I have personally seen three solar setups that were wired by "pro" electricians that had the neutral side at over 200 volts on a 120V line. How did one user find out they had a problem? They plugged in their new TV into the wall and it fried. Then they called me. (re: 20 years in the power industry) Some autotransformers use a common L2 which is bonded to ground. This also solves the problem. Note that multiple grounds in a power system is problematic and should be avoided as ground loops and circulating currents can become a major issue. A "star" or "golden bolt" ground point should be the primary ground at the power panel.
I think that's the best solution. It's going to add more power losses in the system, but low freq inverters are generally less efficient that high freq inverters anyway.
I'll rewatch and do some testing when I get home, but I don't see how this is possible.
I have this inverter at my house and if the inverter is bonding "Neutral" (actually hot) and ground then I would have a dead short circuit.
(through my breaker box where ground an neutral (actually neutral) are connected)
Maybe Signature Solar has unbonded the neutral for USA units?
@@justinjja2 czcams.com/video/90O_iGjfm28/video.html Signature Solar says that Growatt is doing in for them. Not putting the screw in and filling the hole with silicon.
Does 230v unit and autotransformer work if your not grid tied??? And only running solar panels?
Yes. It's only a problem when there is grid power involved.
Will Prowse could have told you that. Right Will?????
I’m confused. Will removing the bonding screw solve the problem? Three ES5000 stacked. Two mid point transformers. Getting ready to turn it on. Do I need to purchase an isolating transformer and if so, what would be the nomenclature? Kinds scary after spending $25,000 for a 16 kW, w/20 kWh of lithium batteries. Right now I’m ready to ditch my inverters and change to something that doesn’t need modification.
I would ditch them. That Neutral issue is not going to ever go away and God forbid the Neutral wire on the Autotransformer ever comes off, all your stuff will be toasted.
@@trophyfishn9757 can’t power my loads
If you are going to ditch them? I will pay shipping to my house
Try the same measurements with the inverter on and measure voltage instead of resistance to the ground. My MPP solar inverter does not have the ground and neutral bonded internally.
Thank you! Resistance can be a red herring
But the MPP Inverters have horrible Idle Power Consumption!!! So trading off $ for a good inverter for $KW drain from batteries every day.
@@longhairpaul That's true, as long as you have an AC load, then it's not too bad. Mines about 55w idle, although I have two in parallel, so 110w idle.
If the bolt is removed in Europe, it functions so that we can remove the ground to neutral bond in the inverter when we already have a ground to neutral bond in the panel (because ground to neutral bonding can only be done at one point).
Even though the bolt is removed, there is no voltage difference between neutral and ground in the inverter because it is combined in the main panel.
If used in the US with a setup like in the video, there will be 120v between ground and neutral in the inverter and also in the bonding bolt holes, where the distance between the conductors may only be a few millimeters.
The point is that European inverters are definitely not designed for use in the US, they can be tricked, but it could possibly harm the device and its users.
One possible solution for those who are desperate to use their existing Auto Transformer and EU inverters, unbond the ground like Ian did and then wire the AT only during inverter mode, bypass AT during grid mode. This can be achieved by using additional bypass relays or by rewiring the inverter output at the PCB itself and use the internal inverter bypass relay. I don't see any other solution using AT. Complicated solution though. And Ian's very right about the pole transformer and the AT back feeding each other, will heat up those long house wiring, power loses, and many other problems. Signature solar selling unbonded ground 5000ESs is definitely not a solution. I think it's better to stick to LV split phase inverters for the US.
i wouldn't risk my life on a relay.
small disbalance in windings is not an issue in the first place and unrelated to the grounding problem - grounding will not eliminate current flowing between central tabs
The scariest part of this is I can't follow this and I'm sure I'm not the only person.
Give it time, keep on learning every single bit of information presented in this, after some time you will get it.
Hello, I understand the problem is when we are using on-grid inverters....what about if it is one OFF-Grid Inverter, for example 230 volts with batteries, I think the problem here is different, in others words, if the L1 (0 volts) is not bounded with ground, we can use autotransformer 240/120 volts without problem...what is your comments??
I would not recommend using this unit unless you fully understand what Ian has stated here in the video, furthermore i would say if you are choosing to remove the ground bond screw you may also wish to dis-assemble the back board from the case and either remove the standoff or install some electronic isolation paper such as fish paper to improve the isolation of the ground. Again, unless you are very well adept in electronics and house wiring, DO NOT ATTEMPT
Wouldn't the easiest solution be to purchase the units made for use in the U.S? I'm not sure why anyone would buy a European model for use in the U.S. if you purchase your growatt from a reputable and knowledgeable dealer that is selling the correct unit for your region you are good to go
Thank you 👏👏👏👏
People were buying the European model because it is cheaper
Thank you very much I have a 5KW 230v inverter 48v GVW 230 1 phase ! Thanks 6:25
the only way you are getting 120 to ground is the auto transformer that is aplitting the 0v (or N) and 240, which causes the N or ground output to be 120... well this is true for the power it is making.. Now if you are using split phase 240 and putting it in on N and L1.. Then yeah, that will definitely make the case hot, and hopefully at that point you had rain lately on your grounding rod, or that you drove a few in deep.
To be clear, with the second part, the isolation split phase transformer will not help, with out removing the bonding.
Great info, I'm glad you took the time to tell people how to do it "safer" Cause people do not listen to "DON'T DO THIS!" Because you know, we are smarter than that.
Well I was running 3 growatt 5KW from signature solar and there growatt 11.4 kw auto transformer
Well what a surprise the transformer crapped out You can only imagine the MESS I’m dealing with down🤮‼️‼️‼️
I had 390volts coming out between the 2 legs
I lost my garage door openers , 6 automatic sky lights , a jacuzzi tub , dish washer , gfcI breakers my Kerig My heating and cooling unit and all sorts of light bulbs blew up
Thank god my son who’s an electrician was home while I was gone to shut everything
down
All SS will do is replace my growatt transformer PLEASE people be very careful building a system like this Everything was built just the way signature solar design
Sickening
Thanks a lot Ian for making everyone aware of this issue I just wish I found it before this huge mess happened 😢
If you are grid tie, why don't just use L1 and L2 from grid and use the autotransformers for neutral? in other words don't use the neutral that came from grid and let the autotransformers provide the Neutral when is in bypass mode and off-grid mode.
the problem is ground in neutral are bonded, and for the purpose of this statement might as well be the same thing, so in other words, if you were to do what you said, and there is a ground connected, well, then for all intesive purposes the neutral is still there, for your method to work you would have not use the neutral, and then unbond the neutral on ground or not use the ground, BOTH which are dangerous and highly not advised
\
Hello, If you expect to pass inspection for residential or commercial grid-tied installations in the US, your equipment (inverter) would have uL1741 and your battery modules would have uL9540a for thermal run away otherwise you will have problems passing inspection. This is just to name a few regulations. There are more.
Hello there are many reasons to never do grid tie. Also the Growatt inverter’s do pass building code inspection as long as you only use grid as backup.
Exactly!
Auto transformers are tiny.
But the writing of 5000va on the auto transformer is what’s passing through the transformer. So if you run 220 volt in your home those loads are not counted as loads passing through the auto transformer.
Also if you have loads on each leg they cancel each other out. So a 5000va auto transformer could be equal to a 15kva isolation transformer
On the SolarEdge Auto transformer it clearly says that you can only pass 32Amps on the neutral. why would you send 43amps?
Any electric panel on any house has L1 and L2 balanced. Who in the right mind would unbalance their house 5kw?? and with heaters for hours??
Anybody that does a off grid solar system understands that you have to balance loads and you have to split them.
your test make sense but in the same time does not make sense at all.When I get some money I will still buy this inverter as backup for my Solark 8k. If the 5000es were available few years ago I would have never bought my solark inverter.
no... not anyone understands this.... and it is very easy to have 4 or 5kw of unbalanced load on one leg, such as two bedrooms and a living room using space heaters to keep warm using the "free" solar power... it's the wife and kids factor that you must account for in your design...
@@leen.3785 Even if you use 5 space heaters in 5 different rooms it will be balanced. in a house the rooms on different circuit.
what appliance exactly do you have that don't support 220V these days?
Everything except stoves, water heaters, AC etc sold in the USA and Japan etc. TV's etc have SMPSU's that work on 100-250v
@@quattrohead laptop, phones, modem, routers, lights etc adapters have 220v support right? I really don't get what else is there
So this only becomes a real problem when connected to grid?
Correct.
it can still be an issue at the battery terminals as well
It may be good to mention if the isolation transfer on the floor was 240 single or split phase. Another excellent video Ian :)
Great info, these people should not be connecting these to the grid! lol.. most of us that use them are using them in a stand alone system :)
So Ian did you get a 5000es inverter from signature solar? I bet not because none of theirs have the wiring bonded.
SS Opens each unit up and removes the screw
i made this video not to take a dig at SS, there are now many listings on ebay alone for this product, trying to educate customers to make informed decisions
@@watts247 Where in the video did you make that distention? Anyone watching this would think it applies to all growatts. There is a spot on the Transformed to wire in a temperature sensor, yet you did not mention that.
@@watts247 not true where did you get this info ?
What about the transformer in a off grid situation
Yep i saw this 220V issue for this popular inverter too so instead of mucking around i simply just buy the split phase version. Sure it costs a bit more but my time, effort and safety are worth it!!!!!!!!
Life is simple people make it complicated!!!!!!!
Now if the whole world is ALL on 220V or 110V AC we would not have this issue do we the same as SAE and metric standard also the same as F vs C and so on and so forth.
Life is simple people make it complicated. So true and never change as gravity is falling NOT rising!!!!!!!!!!
Such an interesting video. Could you explain why a transformer is needed. Can one not install a solar system without that transformer?
Yes just purchase appliances from other countries.
@@jamesshomesolarmore2223 OH indidnt realize that this was particular to the USA . I stay in Africa . Love your videos keep up the good work
Great informative video. Does that mean if I've got 6 Growatts, I'll need 6 isolation transformers?
@Richard from Signature Solar ok great. Thanks.
That would depend how much phase imbalance you need to support. Paralleling multiple 240V inverters will #1 provide more power for 240V loads. #2 it will also provide more balanced power for 120V loads up to the transformer rating. But it will not provide any more power when the 120 phase loads are unbalanced. That's where multiple (or larger) autotransformers would help - but you will take a hit on idle consumption.
@@billjohnson3344 ok thx.
@Richard from Signature Solar so 12000 watts on a 5000va auto transformer, with a continuous watt ratting of about 3000-4000????
I monitor all my loads, including the transformer and neutral. It has never gone over 2 amps. What does " blowing up inverters" even mean? All my circuits are fused. Very confusing. Sounds legitimate but not really.
thanks.
i live in eu
and have a delta net p1-p2, p1-p3, p2-p3 230V, p-GND 120v, no N
so can't use this inverter either.
Just didn't like the idea of hacking with the auto transformer to save a hundred dollars over the low freq split phase inverter. The 6000T seems so much better.
Exactly
If you look inside your low frequency unit you'll find an autotransformer with neutral coming out of a center tap, so I'm not sure what is different/better there.
@@usa-ev 8m sure it has something to do with 1 being rated for European standards and the other for north American standard
@@JM-yx1lm Well, they probably don't have L2 bonded to ground also, i.e. they've got the ground in the right place for NA. So it's not so much about the autotransformer, more about having the grounding conductor bonded in the right spot.
I want 2 5000ES for the solar capacity.
Many thanks for bringing this to our attention. Can you comment on a 10kw system using (2) Growatt 5k inverters and (1) transformer to provide neutral. This is the danger of trusting implicitly these self taught solar CZcams personalities. As a professional inventor and quasi-engineer, I am always blown away or stumped by all the nuances when dealing with power, power factor etc.
Most of Europe in their receptacle have 230V between one hot and neutral. But some countries have 230V between two hot wires. The equipment still have ground, but there is no neutral pin.
Tesla Motors for this reason have to versions of their EVSE, the one versions to not check if ground is working.
Norway is one of the countries that have two hot wires, with about 90% of households have two hot wires on their 230V circuits.
For this reason, equipment shown in the video must be able to disconnect ground, as described in the video.
The 230V with two hot phases comes from systems connected to 3-phase 230V, where you connect the to hot wires ( L1 + L2 , L2 + L3 or L3 + L1 ).
This is a problem I have been banging on about since I first found the diysolar forum. The 230v units are less expensive and auto transformers are also relatively cheap compared to a full isolation transformer. So yes, cheaper non approved equipment can indeed make your lights light up and your motors spin just fine no problem. BUT it is a huge safety risk IF/WHEN something goes wrong. Electric shock, blown appliances in your house or if you are lucky just a blown inverter.
Ian, I hate that screw removal technique I wish you had not shown that. Is the circuit board now just about not quite touching the frame of the inverter or is it an actual rated gap between the PCB and frame ?
That "new" growatt auto transformer is bollocks, it is a hacked up ATS box that has had the contactor removed and the transformer just wired direct. It is being sold as UL approved but that is bullshit. SS say it is done by Growatt but I doubt it.
Just spend the money and BUY PROPER equipment for your situation.
Nothing wrong with modifying equipment to work properly for a particular use case, given that you know what you're doing... Isolating the circuit board and only grounding the outside case is something that has ALWAYS been done in equipment that has stray voltages.
If you're scared of doing it then don't, and as you say, just spend the money and buy proper equipment. But for those of us who actually like to make things ourselves and not just buy a Tesla Powerwall, and have the least bit of confidence in our abilities, mind your own business and let people actually find solutions to problems rather than just throw money at it.
Now of course I personally would just take the time to pull that circuit board out and add a plastic isolator between the casing and the mounting hole, but I'm thankful he shared this knowledge of exactly where it is grounded, so if and when I need to make this modification I don't need to mess around with more than I need to.
@@00000005547 This is not some piece of Kit like a washing machine or a Microwave. This inverter is powering you whole house. There are reasons why they require you to have a plan and an inspection done whenever you modify your electrical system. No one Inspects your Washing Machine hack because the danger is limited to just you and the washing machine.
BTW you did hear what he said, you still have the Neutral bonding issue if your using it tied to the grid and he did not mention the consequences if that neutral wire on the autotransformer ever comes lose. It's your families life, I know I could not sleep well knowing a house fire is just one lose wire away from happening.
@@Dreadlk By the way, this is happening because he's using an older inverter. Will Prowse contacted the manufacturers and they mentioned that none of the inverters being sold right now have that bonding, and are fully isolated and ready to use with the AT.
Now of course this is something that the manufacturer should have advertised in bright letters.
With your so-called fire argument... Any lose connection can cause a fire or electrocution, if you doubt your abilities of tightening down a screw properly maybe you really should stick to AA and AAA batteries and leave the rest for the grown ups...
@@00000005547 lol
@@Dreadlk Absolutely correct! I keep reading a lot of DIY'ers here spouting off on stuff they actually know very little about. Or, the massive dangers involved. Ground loops are no joke and can develop voltages that can kill. Isolation transformer outputs can float way above input voltages depending on the house wiring and loads. Electrical shock is a major issue. The battery packs are massive energy storage units. DIY'ers playing around with high power systems that can bite you is a fools lark.
Here is a suggestion from the Internet for all those wishing to use a 5000ES or similar:
1. Study the teachings of Mike Holt until you realize that grounding rods are not the same as 0V, do not make things safe on their own, and that the only thing that really matters are “grounding conductors” (a.k.a. the ground wires) that carry current back to the source in the event of a live wire energizing a metal case. This "grounding conductor" return path creates a short circuit that will trip the breaker, which is what keeps us safe.
2. On the inverter input connect the grid's L1, L2, and “ground”. The case of the inverter can be grounded to the grid ground (likely already is). In the event that L1 shorts to the inverter case the current will return to the grid over the grounding conductor.
3. On the inverter output connect L1 and L2 to the autotransformer, connect the “ground” output to the case of the autotransformer. In the event L1 shorts to the autotransformer case current will return to the grid via the grounding conductor.
4. Connect the output of the autotransformer L1, L2, and N to a critical loads panel. Do NOT connect a ground from the critical loads panel to the autotransformer or to the grid ground in any way. See the next step for why. (Think of the autotransformer as the grid transformer for your critical loads panel.)
5. Bond the critical loads panel “ground” bar to N. This creates a “grounding conductor” path back to the “source”, which is the autotransformer for everything connected to the critical loads panel. [You may be tempted to drive a new grounding rod for this new grounding circuit you are creating. See #1.]
6. Pray to your grounding god Mike Holt.
Disclaimer: I don’t know if I’d do this, and you shouldn’t without doing your own research, but let’s discuss it.
It might have been a little more reassuring that you knew what you were talking about if you had just got the guys name right. It's Holt not Holtz
Ok so try this, stand on a rubber mat. Go to your panel and touch the L1 leg with one hand and with other hand touch the Wire going to the ground Rod. If your still alive come back and let us know how it felt.
You do know that out on the Electric poll those wire that you see running down the polls side are attached to ground rods??
Do you really think one guy ranting about something makes it correct?
Hundreds of thousands of companies across the globe spend thousands of dollars putting in proper ground rod systems into their electrical rooms. Every home requires a ground rod for a reason and it's not just for lighting strikes.
@@Dreadlk Ah, good catch on Holtz, it had been awhile since I had watched any of his content. I corrected it.
Ground rods serve their purpose at a structure scale, but have zero applicability to this topic and only serve to confuse people. As you say one, and one only, per house. If someone thinks adding more rods is pulling the voltage to 0v or adding safety then they need to study more. It's quite tricky and not intuitive. Mike has a ton of experience, may have advised the NEC board (iirc), and shares the info in an approachable way.
Not sure what your point is about touching live wires. I was suggesting a way to make sure all is properly grounded back to the source, which doesn't make it safe on its own, but does make it trip the breaker which makes it safe.
If you can point out specific problems with the proposal I'm sure we'd all like to learn.
@@trophyfishn9757 I agree on disclaimers, and they're smart enough and kind enough to not act like they know more than they do. Too bad more people don't follow suit because lots of people think and act like they know more than they do.
What was that NEC code/section number for two ground rods again?
@@trophyfishn9757 Requires 2 only when the 1st ground rod measures more than 25 ohms. Supplemental rod must be 6ft from 1st rod . Both must be 8ft in ground. Nec 2020 250.53 (A) (2) (3) & (4).
In the United States is required by code to bond the service panel.. And it you defeat that safety you are now liable..
And i"m seeing people put these in RV Vehicles. Where they rattle around, vibration, heat, condensation, etc..I called Under Writers Lab and NFPA to see if they been tested. None of them on the market have been submitted. So I refuse to install them. I like keeping my license and not being sued...
You need to significantly increase the volume. Some do not have powerful sound output on our devices and this video is MUCH more quiet than almost all other YT videos.
I really want to hear your content but I cannot.
Floating an inverter will disable some of the inverter's surge protection.
This goes to show that USA's electrical system is a large brick wall for inverters.
nonetheless, I hope more people learn and understand this simple but serious problem.
CHEERS!
Great. I have 2 5000's and a transformer sitting here waiting to install. Looks like I'm screwed.
If I was to go with the transformer you mentioned what size for 2? I haven't been able to find one with 2 120 v legs either
I think there is hope...
Most of the isolation transformers have a few different taps, and can be wired a bunch of different ways - including splitting the phase. It just takes some digging.
Well, Signature Solar will be you very thankfull lol
They need to put in a real transformer, 240 to 120 this will be isolated thru magnetic induction .So grow watt needs to re design there shock box.
This video and wills mention is gonna send signature solar stock plummetting.
Good to
Many DIY amateur Electricans
If you use the European model only, so why wood that effect Signature Solar?
The Solution is to us a Isolation Transformer 240:120 -120V Center Tapped 15 KVA , so You don't have to un-ground your inveter. This is not a cheap Solution 15KVA Transformer is $2600 but it will also corrects problems with these trans-formerless inverters that trip every 5 seconds when used on highly inductive loads. The reason there companies remove the copper is because its cheaper. Not what is in the best interest of the consumer. Inverters with Transformers are inherently better for inductive loads, ie your furnace fan motor, Pool Pump and your air conditioner compressor. None of the important stuff. LOL.
I bought mine off ebay so i guess i am screwed!! I just got into solar and I am now getting out!! Just gonna just have a power bill for life ...no big deal. screw solar...maybe re visit 10 years when it is useer friendly..
in the use the utility pole transformer high side and low side are connected together no galvaic isolation center tap of secondery is hooked to one leg of high side so the primary is hooked to secondary makes no since to me or dose it humm
by the way low frequency inverter is the wat to go for many many reasons galvanic isolated is one many if you look around some have lower idle curant than high freq my 6k is 0.50 amp idle that is a GS low freq inverter one i built myself is 0.28 amp idle low freq has more than half the component to go bad i will never buy high freq for many reasons
Great video 👍
Remember it's not only Europa with 230(240)/400V, it's the rest of the world.
Just convert and save powerloss ind the grid, household, savings on powerline dimension, cheater compliance, when we get World standard and so on...