Hopefully in the next balance dataslate, the guard gets a new detachment like drukari did. It really seems a huge oversight by GW not wanting artillery becoming a problem like previous editions by upscaling points but gave us an artillery oriented detachment rule.
nahh GWs fix for that is to just increase indirect unit points cost more so the detachment rule is entirely useless since artillery becomes even more expensive.
Tournaments could fix the artillery problem right now with no rules changes whatsoever by using less L-shaped ruins and more obscuring terrain and others that provide benefit of cover, thus giving artillery less places to hide, and prevent issues like Custodes hiding in the mdi-field or Towering. However, that would require people to adapt, and competitive players would rather change the entire game to appease them rather than adapt.
A few notes to add here that were missed. Ratlings are a waste of points, dont bother with them, infiltrate or not they arent worth it Gaunt's Ghosts were completely overlooked here despite being one of the single best units in the index. They will score you the secondary points you need and help to clear/harass backline units before vanishing to reappear elsewhere. Using a strat for free using an ability like the SM Captains, sets the price to 0. This is done before modifiers, so the price is set to 0 then the +1 for Kurovs Aquilla is added afterwards, meaning the strat would cost X+1 normally and 0+1 if using the ability. So it still has an effect. Using it on Space Marine Armour of Contempt is a great option. Though you are probably better off bringing a Callidus Assassin for 90pts that can do secondary missions as well than spending 40pts on the enhancement. Guard artillery is in a very weird place right now, they are our most accurate units, often hitting on 2s compared to our tanks hitting on 4s. On the flipside they are hilariously overcosted as a result, and not just the Manticore. The FOB especially really suffers from the Indirect Tax making it utterly terrible at 120pts. Combat Guard armies are a thing, 3x6 Bullgryn, Catachans with Straken, Rough Riders etc can be really effective but timing and player skill will come in clutch here as all but the Bullgryn are very soft targets. The resilience of Armoured Sentinels shouldn't be overlooked, a unit of 3 of them can take a LOT of damage with their 2+ save and then being reinforced when they do eventually get wiped out. All the while churning out respectable damage with autocannons, plasma cannons or lascannons and 3 missiles. While overall the army has play, it is not in a good place in terms of internal balance. There are too many units that are clearly terrible and many that are clearly auto-takes for competitive lists. It's very disappointing that the only change made in the balance dataslate was yet another nerf to the manticore, making them poor choices in most lists now. Here's hoping the May points update will help...
Regular Space Marines have a lot of units that are just unplayable garbage and then must takes if you want to be competitive. lots of units in a lot of different armies just feel terrible all over the place, i think GW needs a big look at what has points "to have points/Sell a model", but is a junk version of another model. and i dont mean make it less points, i mean make it do something thats a side grade at least
The problem with Gaunt's Ghosts is that they are a "sample platter" type unit. You shouldn't take them if you're just looking for damage, or just looking for a commander, or just looking for a harass/secondary scoring unit. If you can flexibly switch between all three modes or pair them with other drop infantry, they are a bargain. But if you only use them for one or two there are cheaper units that can do those jobs.
No one uses Kurov's Aquilla, mainly because its *40 points* and you can get so much more for only a tiny bit more. No one really uses the Death Mask of Ollanus Pious, really, unless all you have left is 10 points and nothing can be upgraded at all. Even then, the flag does the exact same thing, so its still situational. Grand Strategist is certainly an Auto-take. I don't think I've ever put a list together without one. Also, I think you are mixing up Officers and Commissars, lol. You missed Drill Commander, by the way. Don't worry, most people do. 20 points for Critical Hits on 5+, but only if you stood still. Reinforcements only apply to the base squad, so in your example of a 20 man DKOK squad with a Pysker and command squad with Deddog if the entire unit was wiped only the 20 Korpsmen are coming back. The Psyker and Command Squad are perma-dead. Just a clarification. Armored might sounds good on paper until you realize that its 2CP. Even if you take the Lord Solar and bag 3 CP per round (2 in your turn, 1 in your opponent's), chances are you are saving all of that for Reinforcements anyway. If it were 1 CP, then we'd be talking. Fields of Fire is only used if you have Ursula Creed. Its the only one she can give for free. Suppressive Fire is basically useless. Unless you are fighting Blue on Blue vs Guard or some other horde shooting army with massive units it just wont be worth it. Expert Bombardiers is only good if you didn't pack any Scout Sentinels. They are basically auto-include, but hey, its good to have options I guess. Inspired Command is probably the only Strat besides Reinforcements that I've actually spend CP on so far. The Cadian Castellan's main issue is that he can only be attached to the 2 'weakest' Squads and Kasrkin. He can't be attached to DKOK squads nor Catachan squads, only Cadian and Infantry Squads. He can be attached to Kasrkin squads, and if you have the extra points I'd highly suggest that, but he doesn't have Scout, so the Kasrkin deploying on the Board or in a Transport are less effective with him at least for that early turn. If they are in Reserve, however, or are part of a 2nd line or delayed deployment the Castellan is a good upgrade! You also missed the *Cadian* Command Squad. There are two Command Squads, with minor but noticeable differences. The Platoon Command Squad has a more flexible structure, with any of the 3 special war gear, or 4 different special weapons, or a heavy Weapons team, or any combination of that. It also allows a unit within 6" to use a stratagem while battleshocked. The Cadian Command Squad is more strict in structure, you *have* to take a Medic, you *have* to take a Voxcaster, one guy must have either a Flag or a Special weapon, and the 4th guy can take a Plasma Pistol and a Special Weapon. The Cadian Command Squad also allows its unit and attached unit to ignore any modifiers to all characteristics or rolls except armor saves. This means it ignores -1 to hit, -1 to wound, -1 Leadership, etc. Its the better squad, but is more expensive and is locked to Cadian Shock Troops. I took 2 Armored Sentinels to a local RTT a few weeks ago, and man are they underrated. One with Plasma, one with an Autocannon, and thats not even the best loadouts for them! They pack a lot of punch, are surprisingly hard to kill, and come back for 2 CP? Most of the time they were the last Regiment unit being shot at by my opponents, so I felt safe in respawning them. Got a lot of Secondary points and took down some vehicles my opponents thought were safe from them! The Manticore at its old points cost was overshadowed by the Basilisk, but not as much as it is now. At 180 points you're only taking Manticores if you are going all in on Artillery as your main damage dealing. Basilisks are great, especially against things like Raptors and other Jumppack units. Played an Iron Warriors player who brought two sets of Raptors, and both of them were cut down to size and didn't do anything of note, just because I had 1 Basilisk. Primaris Pyskers are good, but they cost the same as 10 more bodies, so its 50/50 for me. If you are going all in on massive, orders efficient Infantry blobs they are probably good. I haven't taken them in a while, though... Cadians aren't as good as they sound like. Sure, in a vacuum they sound good, but you have to realize what they are up against. DKOK are 5 more points per 10 of them, and are more durable and do more damage, Catachans are 5 points *less* for 10, and while they have nowhere near the same damage threat they do have scout. Hence most lists that do well in tournaments are actually heavy on Catachans to secure the midboard turn 1, though DKOK still show up occasionally due to being pretty much the best all around. On top of that, Sticky Objectives aren't as good in Guard lists, since most of the time you're either going to have someone sitting on that objective anyway, like an Artillery piece, or you have a second unit coming to stand on that circle soon anyway. Big Scion Squads are great for clearing enemy backlines, small Scions lists are amazing for Secondaries. I've used both, personally I prefer small squads, but even at 5 guys they easily clear Cultists or other equivalent back line models off objectives with little effort. this is when I accidentally hit "comment' even though I wasn't done, lol. Sly Marbo is actually *really* good if you play him right. He can take orders, he'll rip through pretty much any Character, he can shoot and move in your opponent's turn even if he wasn't who was shot at, he has lone operative *and* stealth... He isn't perfect, but if your opponent is running heavy on characters hes a good assassin for sure. Ratlings, on the other hand? Nah, they are garbage. They wont stop anything from just moving through them, honestly, not with T2 and Sv6+. Plus the don't do really any damage at all most of the time. Sly at least actually kills things, and for the same price an Infantry Squad at least has 10 wounds and T3. It should be noted that the Kasrkin can use their ability to give themselves an Order while in Reserve, which makes them good to either start in reserve or to be reinforcements. Combine them with the Castellan as mentioned and they get 2 orders and Sustain hits 1 for some surprising damage. The standard Leman Russ Battle Tank is still the best all-rounder for the Leman Russ Chassis. It has a good gun, rerolls 1s to hit with full rerolls on Objectives, and is 180. If you have 20 extra points the Demolisher is probably a good idea, but if you aren't sure the Battle Tank is a safe fallback. Exterminator is good for Utility, just make sure it shoots before everyone else. The Rogal Dorn is probably the best tank in the army, and top 5 in the game. It just spits out so much damage, can built to either focus on anti-tank or anti-infantry, or can take a balanced loadout and still be great, its so hard to kill (unless you have a Gladiator Lancer, but the Lancer is frankly kind of OP so...) and its only 260 points. Easy to slot in to any list and well worth it any time! I've not actually taken a look at the Avenger before. It does seem pretty good and well costed, only held back by that dreaded "Aircraft" keyword. If only it had "Hover." Still, its cheap, so maybe it can be useful. I'm not sure, I'll have to think about it more. Certainly would be good against Tau, thats for sure! ... Overall, no, the Imperial Guard is *not* in a good place right now. If you take a look at what few lists are winning GTs you'll find that they are pretty much all just heavy skew lists. Baneblade Superheavy and 120 Catachans. 4 Artillery pieces and 30 Kasrkin. Many such cases. Overall there is a significant issue with actual firepower and utility in the Guard. Going up against Space marines is already difficult, but going up against anything tougher is horrible. There are lots and lots of bodies ready to die, but they die so easily that most factions don't really mind the difference. Guard are not the worst faction in the game, but we are struggling and have been all edition. Yes, I am aware that there was a skew upwards last week, and most Meta sites say we are at 51%, but thats a 10 point jump from the previous week of 41%, and the first time I think we've broken 45% all Edition. Thats sort of a long term trend with Guard, however. When I started playing in early 9th we were still at like a 30% win rate, and we got down to like a 20% end of 2021ish. Even when we had our 9th Edition Codex we were sitting at like 50% at best. Really, a lot needs to change for Guard to stay in the 45%-55% range. Battleshock taking away Orders from units either needs to be undone, or needs to be extended to other factions. Manticores and other artillery besides the Basilisk needs to come down in points. Here's hoping for a Good Codex before the Editions over!
Anyone who reads this: disregard that man. Going off of this entire post, I'm confident you don't know what you're talking about, especially when it comes to the infantry, and are simply parroting what other people are saying. DKOK are overrated in what they bring, while Cadians are severely slept on. DKOK have to lose models and risk battleshock and losing orders to do what they want. D3 models can still easily be only 1. The point of Guard infantry is taking and holding objectives, and DKOK don't bring the same OC staying power that Cadians can, where Cadians can straight ignore OC modifiers and don't care if they're battleshocked. DKOK can't fall back and shoot, and that's more important than +1 to wound in melee which itself is sub optimal for guard given it's a shooting army and DKOK are still AP 0 melee. Astra Militarum is fine and *IS* in a good place right now. The problem is people like you who only ever listen to what the "experts" say, rather than working to unlock the full potential of the IG toolbox. The only thing holding them back from being a true top-tier faction in the competitive win rates is not having the codex.
@@Avera9eWh1teShark6 I only listen to experts rather than "working to unlock the full potential of the IG toolbox?" LOL. LMAO, even. Kid, how many games of 10th have you played? Because I've played dozens, in fact I've played at least 1 game almost every week since 10th Edition dropped. Yes, that includes Tournament games. As for the comparison between DKOK and Cadians, it is clear that if one of us are just parroting what they are being told, it is you. DKOK get +1 to hit even if only 1 guy is dead, meaning that you have to lose minimum 4 other guys before you are in danger of Battleshock. In my experience, you either lose and entire 10 man squad or only 5, most of which regen with the Medpack anyway. Even if they are in the *second half* of their datasheet ability, they aren't guarantied to be Battleshocked either. Its a 58% chance, sure, but that aint 100. If you are adding Character support to the mix you can just have a Marshall give them free Insane Bravery and not need to test it anyway. That is much better with a 20 man blob, of course, but you get the idea. So a 20 man blob, in cover, with Take Cover, and a Death Korps Marshall, regenerating D3 guys every turn? Very tanky. That is not even mentioning the 2 Meltas, 2 Grenade Launchers, 2 Plasma Guns, and 2 Plasma Pistols the squad brings to the table, which is 2 Plasma Pistols and 2 Special weapons more than 20 Cadians can bring to the table. Cadians can also only bring Fallback and Shoot *and* Ignores modifiers if they have *both* a Castellan and a Cadian Command Squad. Considering that almost doubles the cost of a 20 man blob, you'll rarely do that. By the time you have 1 unit with 26 bodies and 225 points. Have fun with +5 to blast weapons, lmao. "But run them as 10 man squads" you say, well then you have a 165 point squad and you're better off taking a Vanquiser really. Like I said, I have dozens of games under my belt. I probably have more hours playing the game this year alone than you have since the edition dropped. I have put in the legwork. I know what I am talking about, and when I talk about these units it comes *entirely* from experience. The *only* units mentioned that I haven't personally used more than once are the Ratlings and the Avenger.
@@wyatttyson7737 your experience only comes from using the one unit. I have dozens of games myself. I'm not parroting anything because no one is calling for the use of Cadians. It is a large unit, but you are getting more out of your shooting than you would with DKOK because it doesnt matter if you can natively bring 2 more specials if you aren't within range to use them. CSTs plus the command squad are bringing more plasma guns than Krieg can legally field, and thats more useful than having the two extra melta guns. Moreover, you can only use insane bravery once which is a "nice to have", not something to be relied upon. Blast is a counter, but if you actually knew how to play the game, you'd know to prioritize those units with other units of your own first. Additionally, We are in an elite meta, not a horde meta, so most people don't actually bring enough anti-infantry for that to be an issue, if they bring it at all. When properly supported by the actual damage dealers (tanks and artillery), ordered, and manuevered, any of the Guard infantry is plenty durable enough to last long enough to do their job. You talk about experience, yet you only speak of the Cadians from theory perspective, so I suspect you are lying.
@@Avera9eWh1teShark6I absolutely do not speak of Cadians from a Theory perspective, lmao. I used them side by side with my DKOK squads for several games and took both to Tournament games. If you are pushing up the board then Meltas will be quickly in range. They have 12 inches range after all. Once you are in rapid fire range of your plasma you will have something far better than 4 extra lasgun shots to deal with. Lets say you take your DKOK blob and outfit it the same way as your proposed CST squad. DKOK squad, Platoon Command Squad, DK Marshall. You wouldn't need the Medpack in the command squad, so there is a 3rd Melta or Grenade Launcher. You could drop the Vox Caster if every other blob has their own commander, so there is another special weapon. In fact, you could drop the flag, too, and have 3 more special weapons, but we'll skip that for now. 3 Plasma guns, 3 Melta guns, 3 Grenade Launchers, 4 Plasma Pistols. Thats 3 more Plasma Pistols, 1 more Melta, 1 more Grenade Launcher than you've suggested. Only 2 more than are possible with your configuration, but thats an entire Plasma gun's worth. So, yes, the DKOK squad still brings more firepower. Not to mention the inbuilt +1 to hit if 1 out of the 26 guys is dead, meaning you can easily hit on 2+ if you wanted to. You could also switch 2 of those special weapons for a Heavy Weapon if you wanted to. Maybe a cheeky Lascannon? Any of the Infantry squads, when supported with a Command Squad, can become quite durable, yes. But *none* are as durable as a 5+ Feel No Pain and D3 regenerating models like the DKOK are. It is a *significant* difference in sheer durability. Call me a liar all you want, you aren't changing anything. I've been here since day 1, kid, and I've rolled more dice for Lasguns alone than you have for anything in 10th.
@@Avera9eWh1teShark6Sorry man but Cadians are crap. Everything they do, DKOK does better for 5 more points. Sure, sticky objective extists. But your infantry's job is not to "storm the objective, die and hope for the best" it's actually "storm the objective and tie up anyone going there". It's not about damage. DKOK could lose their ability and still be better than Cadians, because with the Marshal they make superior objective *holders* . Damage is completely secondary. Infantry is not there to take on tanks by themselves. But just to rub it in, last game I sent a Krieg blob against a Doomsday Ark. With grenades and melee, they killed it in 2 turns. +1 to wound IS amazing. In another game, a Krieg blob on their own held off Angron for 2 turns and even wounded him.
If you use a vect ability that states to increase the cost of a strategem by 1, even if the opponent makes the strat free, it still costs 1. so if you can do double that, free strats will cost two.
Liking the guard mechanics, but I don't see how the Primaris Psyker can join a unit with another character unit joined. It does not say like it does for space marine lieutenants that they can join alongside captains/castellans. Am I missing something because that 4++ and 5+ fnp combo is impressive. Same with the preacher. Looks like they can only go solo joining the unit. Thanks for sharing.
Guard player here! It says 2 leaders on the battleline index sheets. My understanding is that is unusual in wider 40k, but it’s something a lot of our infantry units have.
I do agree! But we also have to consider that they are not being run in any guard lists that are topping events (unless I missed something, which is totally possible). But yes, I do agree I should have had them on my list for this video!
The problem with Gaunt's Ghosts is that they are a "sample platter" type unit. You shouldn't take them if you're just looking for damage, or just looking for a commander, or just looking for a harass/secondary scoring unit. If you can flexibly switch between all three modes or pair them with other drop infantry, they are a bargain. But if you only use them for one or two there are cheaper units that can do those jobs.
@@theoryhammernerds its fine at 180 and people are still taking them. a few have won tourneys with them too. 180 costs the same as a russ, and it stays on the board longer and does damage every turn. if anything, they were wildly undercosted up until now. i'll still use at least one in my list, along with a basilisk, earth shaker and medusa siege carriage. re rolling hits with blast vs units of 5+ is some serious damage with this profile.
Guard pay extra to be on par via chaff models and units purely for orders. They miss over half shots and whatever gets through is often rolled out in inv saves and fnps. They do not have any pf the shenanigans that other armies have. I have played guard for about 20 years now. This os their worst edition in my opinion. Spending most of your time rolling for no effect and constantly against averages is not fun. They removed pask, who was superior to the current tank commander, and they removed yarrick, who was an absolute unit.
I stopped playing 40k altogether when after a measly 4 months of awesome 9th ed codex it was thrown in the trash for 10th ed. Still mad that I had to from mid 8th to end of 9th to get a decent codex then boom, back to trash.
Guard win rate is low because people are playing with tanks and combat patrol. Cant find basilisks so they use FOB. Also generally speaking your average player doesnt use enough infantry. Guard need minimum 60 front line infantry. Guard are really good right now, codex can only screw us over like almost every faction that gets a codex so far.
On highly competitive maps, basically only your artillery and rarely others can use the detachment rule, and they have nerfed artillery in every balance data slate so far, so except one time, the guard got always more nerf than buffs. Only skewed lists can win GTs, where I can see most of the time only artillery, 30-40 infantry and the must have special characters. It can win matches, but the hyper optimalized lists are neither mass infantry or mass heavy armor.
Hopefully in the next balance dataslate, the guard gets a new detachment like drukari did. It really seems a huge oversight by GW not wanting artillery becoming a problem like previous editions by upscaling points but gave us an artillery oriented detachment rule.
nahh GWs fix for that is to just increase indirect unit points cost more so the detachment rule is entirely useless since artillery becomes even more expensive.
Tournaments could fix the artillery problem right now with no rules changes whatsoever by using less L-shaped ruins and more obscuring terrain and others that provide benefit of cover, thus giving artillery less places to hide, and prevent issues like Custodes hiding in the mdi-field or Towering. However, that would require people to adapt, and competitive players would rather change the entire game to appease them rather than adapt.
A few notes to add here that were missed.
Ratlings are a waste of points, dont bother with them, infiltrate or not they arent worth it
Gaunt's Ghosts were completely overlooked here despite being one of the single best units in the index. They will score you the secondary points you need and help to clear/harass backline units before vanishing to reappear elsewhere.
Using a strat for free using an ability like the SM Captains, sets the price to 0. This is done before modifiers, so the price is set to 0 then the +1 for Kurovs Aquilla is added afterwards, meaning the strat would cost X+1 normally and 0+1 if using the ability. So it still has an effect. Using it on Space Marine Armour of Contempt is a great option. Though you are probably better off bringing a Callidus Assassin for 90pts that can do secondary missions as well than spending 40pts on the enhancement.
Guard artillery is in a very weird place right now, they are our most accurate units, often hitting on 2s compared to our tanks hitting on 4s. On the flipside they are hilariously overcosted as a result, and not just the Manticore. The FOB especially really suffers from the Indirect Tax making it utterly terrible at 120pts.
Combat Guard armies are a thing, 3x6 Bullgryn, Catachans with Straken, Rough Riders etc can be really effective but timing and player skill will come in clutch here as all but the Bullgryn are very soft targets.
The resilience of Armoured Sentinels shouldn't be overlooked, a unit of 3 of them can take a LOT of damage with their 2+ save and then being reinforced when they do eventually get wiped out. All the while churning out respectable damage with autocannons, plasma cannons or lascannons and 3 missiles.
While overall the army has play, it is not in a good place in terms of internal balance. There are too many units that are clearly terrible and many that are clearly auto-takes for competitive lists. It's very disappointing that the only change made in the balance dataslate was yet another nerf to the manticore, making them poor choices in most lists now. Here's hoping the May points update will help...
Regular Space Marines have a lot of units that are just unplayable garbage and then must takes if you want to be competitive. lots of units in a lot of different armies just feel terrible all over the place, i think GW needs a big look at what has points "to have points/Sell a model", but is a junk version of another model. and i dont mean make it less points, i mean make it do something thats a side grade at least
The problem with Gaunt's Ghosts is that they are a "sample platter" type unit. You shouldn't take them if you're just looking for damage, or just looking for a commander, or just looking for a harass/secondary scoring unit. If you can flexibly switch between all three modes or pair them with other drop infantry, they are a bargain. But if you only use them for one or two there are cheaper units that can do those jobs.
No combat?....Go watch Mordian Glory and then come back to us.
No one uses Kurov's Aquilla, mainly because its *40 points* and you can get so much more for only a tiny bit more.
No one really uses the Death Mask of Ollanus Pious, really, unless all you have left is 10 points and nothing can be upgraded at all. Even then, the flag does the exact same thing, so its still situational.
Grand Strategist is certainly an Auto-take. I don't think I've ever put a list together without one. Also, I think you are mixing up Officers and Commissars, lol.
You missed Drill Commander, by the way. Don't worry, most people do. 20 points for Critical Hits on 5+, but only if you stood still.
Reinforcements only apply to the base squad, so in your example of a 20 man DKOK squad with a Pysker and command squad with Deddog if the entire unit was wiped only the 20 Korpsmen are coming back. The Psyker and Command Squad are perma-dead. Just a clarification.
Armored might sounds good on paper until you realize that its 2CP. Even if you take the Lord Solar and bag 3 CP per round (2 in your turn, 1 in your opponent's), chances are you are saving all of that for Reinforcements anyway. If it were 1 CP, then we'd be talking.
Fields of Fire is only used if you have Ursula Creed. Its the only one she can give for free.
Suppressive Fire is basically useless. Unless you are fighting Blue on Blue vs Guard or some other horde shooting army with massive units it just wont be worth it.
Expert Bombardiers is only good if you didn't pack any Scout Sentinels. They are basically auto-include, but hey, its good to have options I guess.
Inspired Command is probably the only Strat besides Reinforcements that I've actually spend CP on so far.
The Cadian Castellan's main issue is that he can only be attached to the 2 'weakest' Squads and Kasrkin. He can't be attached to DKOK squads nor Catachan squads, only Cadian and Infantry Squads. He can be attached to Kasrkin squads, and if you have the extra points I'd highly suggest that, but he doesn't have Scout, so the Kasrkin deploying on the Board or in a Transport are less effective with him at least for that early turn. If they are in Reserve, however, or are part of a 2nd line or delayed deployment the Castellan is a good upgrade!
You also missed the *Cadian* Command Squad. There are two Command Squads, with minor but noticeable differences. The Platoon Command Squad has a more flexible structure, with any of the 3 special war gear, or 4 different special weapons, or a heavy Weapons team, or any combination of that. It also allows a unit within 6" to use a stratagem while battleshocked. The Cadian Command Squad is more strict in structure, you *have* to take a Medic, you *have* to take a Voxcaster, one guy must have either a Flag or a Special weapon, and the 4th guy can take a Plasma Pistol and a Special Weapon. The Cadian Command Squad also allows its unit and attached unit to ignore any modifiers to all characteristics or rolls except armor saves. This means it ignores -1 to hit, -1 to wound, -1 Leadership, etc. Its the better squad, but is more expensive and is locked to Cadian Shock Troops.
I took 2 Armored Sentinels to a local RTT a few weeks ago, and man are they underrated. One with Plasma, one with an Autocannon, and thats not even the best loadouts for them! They pack a lot of punch, are surprisingly hard to kill, and come back for 2 CP? Most of the time they were the last Regiment unit being shot at by my opponents, so I felt safe in respawning them. Got a lot of Secondary points and took down some vehicles my opponents thought were safe from them!
The Manticore at its old points cost was overshadowed by the Basilisk, but not as much as it is now. At 180 points you're only taking Manticores if you are going all in on Artillery as your main damage dealing.
Basilisks are great, especially against things like Raptors and other Jumppack units. Played an Iron Warriors player who brought two sets of Raptors, and both of them were cut down to size and didn't do anything of note, just because I had 1 Basilisk.
Primaris Pyskers are good, but they cost the same as 10 more bodies, so its 50/50 for me. If you are going all in on massive, orders efficient Infantry blobs they are probably good. I haven't taken them in a while, though...
Cadians aren't as good as they sound like. Sure, in a vacuum they sound good, but you have to realize what they are up against. DKOK are 5 more points per 10 of them, and are more durable and do more damage, Catachans are 5 points *less* for 10, and while they have nowhere near the same damage threat they do have scout. Hence most lists that do well in tournaments are actually heavy on Catachans to secure the midboard turn 1, though DKOK still show up occasionally due to being pretty much the best all around. On top of that, Sticky Objectives aren't as good in Guard lists, since most of the time you're either going to have someone sitting on that objective anyway, like an Artillery piece, or you have a second unit coming to stand on that circle soon anyway.
Big Scion Squads are great for clearing enemy backlines, small Scions lists are amazing for Secondaries. I've used both, personally I prefer small squads, but even at 5 guys they easily clear Cultists or other equivalent back line models off objectives with little effort.
this is when I accidentally hit "comment' even though I wasn't done, lol.
Sly Marbo is actually *really* good if you play him right. He can take orders, he'll rip through pretty much any Character, he can shoot and move in your opponent's turn even if he wasn't who was shot at, he has lone operative *and* stealth... He isn't perfect, but if your opponent is running heavy on characters hes a good assassin for sure.
Ratlings, on the other hand? Nah, they are garbage. They wont stop anything from just moving through them, honestly, not with T2 and Sv6+. Plus the don't do really any damage at all most of the time. Sly at least actually kills things, and for the same price an Infantry Squad at least has 10 wounds and T3.
It should be noted that the Kasrkin can use their ability to give themselves an Order while in Reserve, which makes them good to either start in reserve or to be reinforcements. Combine them with the Castellan as mentioned and they get 2 orders and Sustain hits 1 for some surprising damage.
The standard Leman Russ Battle Tank is still the best all-rounder for the Leman Russ Chassis. It has a good gun, rerolls 1s to hit with full rerolls on Objectives, and is 180. If you have 20 extra points the Demolisher is probably a good idea, but if you aren't sure the Battle Tank is a safe fallback. Exterminator is good for Utility, just make sure it shoots before everyone else.
The Rogal Dorn is probably the best tank in the army, and top 5 in the game. It just spits out so much damage, can built to either focus on anti-tank or anti-infantry, or can take a balanced loadout and still be great, its so hard to kill (unless you have a Gladiator Lancer, but the Lancer is frankly kind of OP so...) and its only 260 points. Easy to slot in to any list and well worth it any time!
I've not actually taken a look at the Avenger before. It does seem pretty good and well costed, only held back by that dreaded "Aircraft" keyword. If only it had "Hover." Still, its cheap, so maybe it can be useful. I'm not sure, I'll have to think about it more. Certainly would be good against Tau, thats for sure!
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Overall, no, the Imperial Guard is *not* in a good place right now. If you take a look at what few lists are winning GTs you'll find that they are pretty much all just heavy skew lists. Baneblade Superheavy and 120 Catachans. 4 Artillery pieces and 30 Kasrkin. Many such cases. Overall there is a significant issue with actual firepower and utility in the Guard. Going up against Space marines is already difficult, but going up against anything tougher is horrible. There are lots and lots of bodies ready to die, but they die so easily that most factions don't really mind the difference. Guard are not the worst faction in the game, but we are struggling and have been all edition. Yes, I am aware that there was a skew upwards last week, and most Meta sites say we are at 51%, but thats a 10 point jump from the previous week of 41%, and the first time I think we've broken 45% all Edition. Thats sort of a long term trend with Guard, however. When I started playing in early 9th we were still at like a 30% win rate, and we got down to like a 20% end of 2021ish. Even when we had our 9th Edition Codex we were sitting at like 50% at best.
Really, a lot needs to change for Guard to stay in the 45%-55% range. Battleshock taking away Orders from units either needs to be undone, or needs to be extended to other factions. Manticores and other artillery besides the Basilisk needs to come down in points.
Here's hoping for a Good Codex before the Editions over!
Anyone who reads this: disregard that man.
Going off of this entire post, I'm confident you don't know what you're talking about, especially when it comes to the infantry, and are simply parroting what other people are saying. DKOK are overrated in what they bring, while Cadians are severely slept on. DKOK have to lose models and risk battleshock and losing orders to do what they want. D3 models can still easily be only 1. The point of Guard infantry is taking and holding objectives, and DKOK don't bring the same OC staying power that Cadians can, where Cadians can straight ignore OC modifiers and don't care if they're battleshocked. DKOK can't fall back and shoot, and that's more important than +1 to wound in melee which itself is sub optimal for guard given it's a shooting army and DKOK are still AP 0 melee.
Astra Militarum is fine and *IS* in a good place right now. The problem is people like you who only ever listen to what the "experts" say, rather than working to unlock the full potential of the IG toolbox. The only thing holding them back from being a true top-tier faction in the competitive win rates is not having the codex.
@@Avera9eWh1teShark6 I only listen to experts rather than "working to unlock the full potential of the IG toolbox?" LOL. LMAO, even.
Kid, how many games of 10th have you played? Because I've played dozens, in fact I've played at least 1 game almost every week since 10th Edition dropped. Yes, that includes Tournament games.
As for the comparison between DKOK and Cadians, it is clear that if one of us are just parroting what they are being told, it is you. DKOK get +1 to hit even if only 1 guy is dead, meaning that you have to lose minimum 4 other guys before you are in danger of Battleshock. In my experience, you either lose and entire 10 man squad or only 5, most of which regen with the Medpack anyway. Even if they are in the *second half* of their datasheet ability, they aren't guarantied to be Battleshocked either. Its a 58% chance, sure, but that aint 100.
If you are adding Character support to the mix you can just have a Marshall give them free Insane Bravery and not need to test it anyway. That is much better with a 20 man blob, of course, but you get the idea. So a 20 man blob, in cover, with Take Cover, and a Death Korps Marshall, regenerating D3 guys every turn? Very tanky. That is not even mentioning the 2 Meltas, 2 Grenade Launchers, 2 Plasma Guns, and 2 Plasma Pistols the squad brings to the table, which is 2 Plasma Pistols and 2 Special weapons more than 20 Cadians can bring to the table.
Cadians can also only bring Fallback and Shoot *and* Ignores modifiers if they have *both* a Castellan and a Cadian Command Squad. Considering that almost doubles the cost of a 20 man blob, you'll rarely do that. By the time you have 1 unit with 26 bodies and 225 points. Have fun with +5 to blast weapons, lmao. "But run them as 10 man squads" you say, well then you have a 165 point squad and you're better off taking a Vanquiser really.
Like I said, I have dozens of games under my belt. I probably have more hours playing the game this year alone than you have since the edition dropped. I have put in the legwork. I know what I am talking about, and when I talk about these units it comes *entirely* from experience. The *only* units mentioned that I haven't personally used more than once are the Ratlings and the Avenger.
@@wyatttyson7737 your experience only comes from using the one unit. I have dozens of games myself. I'm not parroting anything because no one is calling for the use of Cadians. It is a large unit, but you are getting more out of your shooting than you would with DKOK because it doesnt matter if you can natively bring 2 more specials if you aren't within range to use them. CSTs plus the command squad are bringing more plasma guns than Krieg can legally field, and thats more useful than having the two extra melta guns. Moreover, you can only use insane bravery once which is a "nice to have", not something to be relied upon. Blast is a counter, but if you actually knew how to play the game, you'd know to prioritize those units with other units of your own first. Additionally, We are in an elite meta, not a horde meta, so most people don't actually bring enough anti-infantry for that to be an issue, if they bring it at all. When properly supported by the actual damage dealers (tanks and artillery), ordered, and manuevered, any of the Guard infantry is plenty durable enough to last long enough to do their job.
You talk about experience, yet you only speak of the Cadians from theory perspective, so I suspect you are lying.
@@Avera9eWh1teShark6I absolutely do not speak of Cadians from a Theory perspective, lmao. I used them side by side with my DKOK squads for several games and took both to Tournament games.
If you are pushing up the board then Meltas will be quickly in range. They have 12 inches range after all. Once you are in rapid fire range of your plasma you will have something far better than 4 extra lasgun shots to deal with.
Lets say you take your DKOK blob and outfit it the same way as your proposed CST squad. DKOK squad, Platoon Command Squad, DK Marshall. You wouldn't need the Medpack in the command squad, so there is a 3rd Melta or Grenade Launcher. You could drop the Vox Caster if every other blob has their own commander, so there is another special weapon. In fact, you could drop the flag, too, and have 3 more special weapons, but we'll skip that for now. 3 Plasma guns, 3 Melta guns, 3 Grenade Launchers, 4 Plasma Pistols. Thats 3 more Plasma Pistols, 1 more Melta, 1 more Grenade Launcher than you've suggested. Only 2 more than are possible with your configuration, but thats an entire Plasma gun's worth. So, yes, the DKOK squad still brings more firepower. Not to mention the inbuilt +1 to hit if 1 out of the 26 guys is dead, meaning you can easily hit on 2+ if you wanted to.
You could also switch 2 of those special weapons for a Heavy Weapon if you wanted to. Maybe a cheeky Lascannon?
Any of the Infantry squads, when supported with a Command Squad, can become quite durable, yes. But *none* are as durable as a 5+ Feel No Pain and D3 regenerating models like the DKOK are. It is a *significant* difference in sheer durability.
Call me a liar all you want, you aren't changing anything. I've been here since day 1, kid, and I've rolled more dice for Lasguns alone than you have for anything in 10th.
@@Avera9eWh1teShark6Sorry man but Cadians are crap. Everything they do, DKOK does better for 5 more points. Sure, sticky objective extists. But your infantry's job is not to "storm the objective, die and hope for the best" it's actually "storm the objective and tie up anyone going there".
It's not about damage. DKOK could lose their ability and still be better than Cadians, because with the Marshal they make superior objective *holders* .
Damage is completely secondary. Infantry is not there to take on tanks by themselves.
But just to rub it in, last game I sent a Krieg blob against a Doomsday Ark. With grenades and melee, they killed it in 2 turns. +1 to wound IS amazing.
In another game, a Krieg blob on their own held off Angron for 2 turns and even wounded him.
i'm sorry, but the race is humans. the faction is imperial guard. look, again, i'm sorry but someone had to point it out.
If you use a vect ability that states to increase the cost of a strategem by 1, even if the opponent makes the strat free, it still costs 1. so if you can do double that, free strats will cost two.
I had a feeling that was the case!
Can you use kasrkin with Cadian combat patrol?
Liking the guard mechanics, but I don't see how the Primaris Psyker can join a unit with another character unit joined. It does not say like it does for space marine lieutenants that they can join alongside captains/castellans. Am I missing something because that 4++ and 5+ fnp combo is impressive. Same with the preacher. Looks like they can only go solo joining the unit. Thanks for sharing.
guard battleline can have 2 leaders
Attach him to a 20 man krieg squad with a Marshall and u will be very happy equip 2 plasma 2 krak grenade launchers and 2 meltas.
Guard player here! It says 2 leaders on the battleline index sheets. My understanding is that is unusual in wider 40k, but it’s something a lot of our infantry units have.
Guard baseline can have 2 leaders
I think it says that as long as one is a Command Squad,
ghost of gaunt hare very good too
I do agree! But we also have to consider that they are not being run in any guard lists that are topping events (unless I missed something, which is totally possible). But yes, I do agree I should have had them on my list for this video!
The problem with Gaunt's Ghosts is that they are a "sample platter" type unit. You shouldn't take them if you're just looking for damage, or just looking for a commander, or just looking for a harass/secondary scoring unit. If you can flexibly switch between all three modes or pair them with other drop infantry, they are a bargain. But if you only use them for one or two there are cheaper units that can do those jobs.
the mantice is "a little bit to much for 150 points" well dude now i have bad news for you... the manticore is 180pts now... GW sucks at balancing 😅
Yep! I put a little pop up on screen with a pts correction. Unusable at 180.
@@theoryhammernerds its fine at 180 and people are still taking them. a few have won tourneys with them too. 180 costs the same as a russ, and it stays on the board longer and does damage every turn. if anything, they were wildly undercosted up until now. i'll still use at least one in my list, along with a basilisk, earth shaker and medusa siege carriage. re rolling hits with blast vs units of 5+ is some serious damage with this profile.
The IG is definitively not really good or in a good place right now.
Guard pay extra to be on par via chaff models and units purely for orders. They miss over half shots and whatever gets through is often rolled out in inv saves and fnps. They do not have any pf the shenanigans that other armies have. I have played guard for about 20 years now. This os their worst edition in my opinion. Spending most of your time rolling for no effect and constantly against averages is not fun.
They removed pask, who was superior to the current tank commander, and they removed yarrick, who was an absolute unit.
I'm with ya brother, been playing for 13 years and the new named characters don't even compare to the ones we lost lore wise and table wise.
I stopped playing 40k altogether when after a measly 4 months of awesome 9th ed codex it was thrown in the trash for 10th ed. Still mad that I had to from mid 8th to end of 9th to get a decent codex then boom, back to trash.
Guard win rate is low because people are playing with tanks and combat patrol. Cant find basilisks so they use FOB. Also generally speaking your average player doesnt use enough infantry. Guard need minimum 60 front line infantry. Guard are really good right now, codex can only screw us over like almost every faction that gets a codex so far.
On highly competitive maps, basically only your artillery and rarely others can use the detachment rule, and they have nerfed artillery in every balance data slate so far, so except one time, the guard got always more nerf than buffs. Only skewed lists can win GTs, where I can see most of the time only artillery, 30-40 infantry and the must have special characters. It can win matches, but the hyper optimalized lists are neither mass infantry or mass heavy armor.