I have to give credit where credit is due. Showing how good the grip is with the jis in a way where it lifts the carb up was perfect. No words needed with that demonstration!
JIS was an old standard of certification for Japanese made screwdriver to alert people of good quality product. they are NO manufacturer in the world currently making JIS stamped screwdriver since 2008. the certification was made useless since all the Japanese driver company are now using the best grounding technology and are not making poor quality driver. there are many articles about the subject, this myth was mainly created by people getting frustrated with their poor quality Chinese made stamped screwdriver. in fact any good quality ground bit will do a better job than a rounded off pressed one.
Absolutely the best demonstration of how much extra torque you can apply. Many people don’t understand that there is a difference and it’s actually important to use the right screwdriver.
The JIS for screwdrivers was repaced by an ISO/DIN standard, and the corresponding fasteners have largely replaced the original Phillips design. That standard was co-developed by Phillips. If you use a modern crosshead driver that meets the current ISO/DIN standard it will fit old or new Japanese or phillips head screws without camming. The problem comes from using original Phillips design drivers with old JIS or new ISO/DIN screws.
Jason, you should have mentioned you were shooting this in 2014. This is right after I gave you my whole oral history of industrial standards and told you to buy some Vessels to work on your Kawi. Glad to you making good content though. I'd spend a lot less time doing screw extraction if everyone used JIS. For anyone else interested, US Industrialists didn't want to train their workers on applying the proper torque so they went with the Philips which will cam itself out. The Japanese decided to go with the superior design and invest the time in training their workers on using tools correctly. They're culture is a bit more disciplined. Love you, Jason.
For what it's worth, JIS screws are also found on bicycle components such as derailleur gear mechs and brakes, since the market is dominated by two Japanese companies, Shimano and Suntour. This means that bicycle-specific cross-head screwdrivers (e,g, made by Park Tool) are JIS heads rather than Phillips. Hope this helps someone :-)
Can I add that Phillips was DESIGNED to "cam-out" while building cheap furniture in the '30's on assembly lines, so the wood didn't split, and NOT designed for aluminum carbs that need to be overhauled 20 years later ?? It's part of a throw away society, sadly.
Extensive evidence is lacking for this specific narrative, and the feature is not mentioned in the original patents. However, a 1949 refinement to the original design described in US Patent #2,474,994 describes this feature.
From what I read it was designed for use on assembly lines with early automatic screwdrivers and was designed to cam out rather than snapping off the screw head. Torque limiting screwdrivers wasn't a thing yet. But regardless of whether this is true or not, a phillips driver will cam out under torque while a JIS driver will not. There is also a European ISO standard cross head screw that's basically the same as JIS (it's slightly different but the drivers are interchangeable). As with JIS screws, phillips screwdrivers will chew these up too.
In that respect it was wonderful! They remain removable with a MANUAL impact driver which forces the bit into the head. Socket head screws on motorcycles are superior for maintenance and you can easily buy bags of metric Allen head screws in stainless off Ebay. I do. Worth noting is the manual impacts also work well on damages socket heads. Making everything "rebuildable" also makes it more expensive.
Great video, and excellent job at showing the differences between the two.....I am just learning about JIS now, I didn't even know it was a thing until videos of the Vessel Impacta screwdrivers started showing up on youtube recently. Anyway, subscribed to your channel and I gave your video a "Like" too
After you get the carb apart, install Allen head screws. They are cheap and plentiful in stainless on Ebay. I use a TINY dab of anti-seize on carb hardware threads which makes the next cleaning much easier.
JIS was an old standard of certification for Japanese made screwdriver to alert people of good quality product. they are NO manufacturer in the world currently making JIS stamped screwdriver since 2008. the certification was made useless since all the Japanese driver company are now using the best grounding technology and are not making poor quality driver. there are many articles about the subject, this myth was mainly created by people getting frustrated with their poor quality Chinese made stamped screwdriver. in fact any good quality ground bit will do a better job than a rounded off pressed one...
"You don't want to round the head with a Phillips..." I learned this the hard way on a 900 usd 50mm lens. I'd never even heard of JIS, none of my coworkers had, no craft or tradesman I know had. I even asked people I know that are literally from Japan and they had not heard of it! Now I have a stripped out head on a tiny, and I mean TINY, ass screw with no idea how I am going to get it out.
I've used a tiny flat blade screwdriver to get a striped Phillips out, but man... it's tough. It likely has to be one size smaller than the Phillips you're trying to extract, so that the flat blade can fit within the deeper part of what's not stripped/torn-up. Another option, is to try micro screw extractors made specifically for such situations. www.amazon.com/Moody-Tools-58-0670-Extractor-Reversible/dp/B000JCT3W0
I have a set of Vessel Ball grip screwdrivers...I swear they grip better on any screw phillips or JIS. A complete set of Vessels solves all "phillips" problems in one shot!
Vessel makes slightly modified ISO stamdard design drivers that are within tolerances, but just loose enough to fit old JIS screws and all Phillips screws.
I can’t tell you how many screws heads I stripped out not knowing that Japanese screw heads were different. The tough part is finding quality JIS screw drivers with a hardened tip, any suggestions? I won’t consider tools made in china
a much more pragmatic approach for screws commonly encountered on typical used bikes, witch are usually screwed up before you get there, is to reshape them. i use a #2 phillips bit in a 1/4" socket on an old 1/4"drive extension, and put the bit in the screw head and smack on the end of the extension. the alloy steel of the bit easily reshapes the softer steel the screw is made of. something else that helps is vampliers vt-001-7sj. its pliers designed to bite into messed up screws to take them out. after you remove the damaged screws you can replace them with screws with whatever type of head you want.
Garon Burwell JIS drivers still work better on damaged JIS screw heads than a Phillips driver which is still designed to cam out. Using the right tool for the job makes all the difference.
yes there will always be idealism versus practicality. everybody gets to make their choice. another thing to consider for folks doing this frequently is the fact that you can't get a jis screwdriver off of a tool truck in most cases. i have a set of screwdrivers from a couple of the higher end brands and they get wear with regular use and due to that the #2 shanks get warrantied out on my sets probably twice a year to keep them fresh. if i got myself a nice jis #2, i'd get attached to it, and i'd be sore about having to mail it somewhere to get it warrantied from wear. even if i had 2 sets so i wouldn't be without, i wouldn't want to mail it off. i'm spoiled with tooltruck service and not having to mail something off or take a drive to get it back in shape. on most of my customers bikes the old boogered up screws get replaced with allens for a nice touch. again it's so rare that i'd see a screw not previously messed up and even if the customer couldn't see them on a bike once installed, i still wouldn't put the boogered up screws back in. also to the point of the phillips head screw "designed" to cam out, the wikipedia article on screw drives seems to suggest against this old wives tale but then again wikipedia isn't an encyclopedia and anybody can basically write whatever on there.
Pragmatism is the ultimate practicality. If you use tols professionally, you should use prifessional tools. Pragmatism would suggest that using high quality MODERN DESIGN ISO standard drivers is more practical than buying old design Phillips drivers from tool trucks or mass merchandizers . Properly used high quality manual screwdrivers do NOT wear out in regular use away from an assembly line. Cheap ones used incorrectly do. Provided that you use them properly, good screwdrivers ones last a lifetime. You can get ISO standard drivers which replaced Phillips in production use 20 years ago as hand tools, machine tool bits and as bits made for 1/4" and 3/8 impact drivers. They are inexpensive enough to discard if you fasten thousands of fasteners per day or if abuse your tools enough to wear them out.
Very good info - thank you Tip do not use a Phillips head when taking off brake rotors on a Honda Accord etc. And if can use with an impact screwdriver (not on carbs etc)
Mr. McCord, I now know not to use a Phillips head screwdriver to take out the rotor screws on my Honda. Should I be using a JIS screwdriver and if so, Is there a JIS bit I can buy to put in my 5 piece impact screwdriver set (that only provides Phillips head bits)? It seems that that is what everyone uses to take out these rotor screws...it's insane!
Working on this 20+ year old MPI Monitor 422 (Japanese) kerosene heater, only a very few of the screws have the JIS dot dimple. On your carburetor, I see the same pattern. Many of the screws have no dimple, yet they are all Japanese manufactured. Do you then use JIS screwdrivers on ALL the screws, dimple or not? A problem with old equipment like this is that techs over the years have made a mess of the screw heads from cam-out and miss-matched drivers. Think I'm going to pickup a set of the Vessel, www.amazon.com/Bessel-Vessel-Difference-Screwdrivers-No-220w-3/dp/B00E55DL4I The other recent trendy thing with Phillips screwdrivers is to texture / diamond dust the tips for better grip. Most likely a late attempt at addressing some of the poor cam-out tendencies.
Thank you for the great information on the screws, [J.I.S] I have never heard of such a thing till now, but dealing with the Japanese that does not surprise me. I think they're getting back at us from world war II LOL
Hey. I am posting a video about JIS screwdrivers soon and would love to use your carb display in the video to show the difference. Is it possible for me to get your permission to use a small clip of this video for my channel? Of course i will give you a shoutout as well. Please get back to me when you can. Thanks.
Smart demo. I'm beginning to think JIS screwdrivers will work better even on Phillips screws. The Jawsfit solution is excellent. Will compare Jawsfit to SnapOn ribbed over time. Buying can be confusing. Vessel Jawsfit mean to turn. Phillips is a pain in the. Sorry but may the best design win. I bet some US manufacturer will begin making them. I hope they don't steal it as is the case sometimes. A nasty problem for US manufacturers I guess. Just make the darn tips sharper and harder.
JIS doesnt exsist any more. These conform to DIN 5260 which in turn is superseeded by DIN 8764 which most recent quality drivers confirm to and work on both philips and jis. So theres no need to go out of your way to buy these.
2:50, this is a valid comparison of a $0.97 screwdriver with a $8.90 screwdriver (that is the actual current price of both of those exact drivers). It is not a valid comparison of phillips to JIS.
1- they are not even the same physical size 2- the "JIS" screwdriver is clearly ground and of good quality steel, your other one is garbage pressed steel and rounded off 3-JIS was an old standard of certification for Japanese made screwdriver to alert people of good quality product. they are NO manufacturer in the world currently making JIS stamped screwdriver since 2008. the certification was made useless since all the Japanese driver company are now using the best grounding technology and are not making poor quality driver. there are many articles about the subject, this myth was mainly created by people getting frustrated with their poor quality Chinese made stamped screwdriver. in fact any good quality ground bit will do a better job than a rounded off pressed one.
I'm pretty sure the Phillips is just designed so that you cant break the head of a screw off by over tightening, though modern drills make that feature irrelevant.
Shimano bicycle derailleurs had JIS bolts on all models in the past, have them on cheap models still and funny enough, all multitools have philips head screw driver for those JIS bolts mainly. Absolutely useless.
So basically this means Philips screwdrivers are useless. Get JIS screwdrivers (Japanese ones like Vessel are fantastic and cheap) and throw your PH screwdrivers to the bin.
I have to give credit where credit is due. Showing how good the grip is with the jis in a way where it lifts the carb up was perfect. No words needed with that demonstration!
If you do any woodworking, try the Robertson screws- the grip is so good you can hold a robertson screwdriver horizontal to the ground, by the screw!
JIS was an old standard of certification for Japanese made screwdriver to alert people of good quality product. they are NO manufacturer in the world currently making JIS stamped screwdriver since 2008. the certification was made useless since all the Japanese driver company are now using the best grounding technology and are not making poor quality driver. there are many articles about the subject, this myth was mainly created by people getting frustrated with their poor quality Chinese made stamped screwdriver. in fact any good quality ground bit will do a better job than a rounded off pressed one.
Absolutely the best demonstration of how much extra torque you can apply.
Many people don’t understand that there is a difference and it’s actually important to use the right screwdriver.
For 25 years of my life, I had no idea there was a difference... THANK YOU This explains a LOT of struggles I had...
The JIS for screwdrivers was repaced by an ISO/DIN standard, and the corresponding fasteners have largely replaced the original Phillips design. That standard was co-developed by Phillips. If you use a modern crosshead driver that meets the current ISO/DIN standard it will fit old or new Japanese or phillips head screws without camming. The problem comes from using original Phillips design drivers with old JIS or new ISO/DIN screws.
Thanks for taking the time to explain JIS hardware,glad I learned something new!
Jason, you should have mentioned you were shooting this in 2014. This is right after I gave you my whole oral history of industrial standards and told you to buy some Vessels to work on your Kawi. Glad to you making good content though. I'd spend a lot less time doing screw extraction if everyone used JIS. For anyone else interested, US Industrialists didn't want to train their workers on applying the proper torque so they went with the Philips which will cam itself out. The Japanese decided to go with the superior design and invest the time in training their workers on using tools correctly. They're culture is a bit more disciplined. Love you, Jason.
For what it's worth, JIS screws are also found on bicycle components such as derailleur gear mechs and brakes, since the market is dominated by two Japanese companies, Shimano and Suntour. This means that bicycle-specific cross-head screwdrivers (e,g, made by Park Tool) are JIS heads rather than Phillips. Hope this helps someone :-)
most, not all some pt. is philip.s
Can I add that Phillips was DESIGNED to "cam-out" while building cheap furniture in the '30's on assembly lines, so the wood didn't split, and NOT designed for aluminum carbs that need to be overhauled 20 years later ?? It's part of a throw away society, sadly.
TIMEtoRIDE900 not so much throw away society as fast and easy assembly by workers with medium skill levels.
Extensive evidence is lacking for this specific narrative, and the feature is not mentioned in the original patents. However, a 1949 refinement to the original design described in US Patent #2,474,994 describes this feature.
From what I read it was designed for use on assembly lines with early automatic screwdrivers and was designed to cam out rather than snapping off the screw head. Torque limiting screwdrivers wasn't a thing yet. But regardless of whether this is true or not, a phillips driver will cam out under torque while a JIS driver will not. There is also a European ISO standard cross head screw that's basically the same as JIS (it's slightly different but the drivers are interchangeable). As with JIS screws, phillips screwdrivers will chew these up too.
In that respect it was wonderful! They remain removable with a MANUAL impact driver which forces the bit into the head. Socket head screws on motorcycles are superior for maintenance and you can easily buy bags of metric Allen head screws in stainless off Ebay. I do. Worth noting is the manual impacts also work well on damages socket heads. Making everything "rebuildable" also makes it more expensive.
TIMEtoRIDE900 I always thought it was Henry Ford and his assembly line that designed them to cam out
Had to watch 5 vids before I got the info here. Very valuable
Congrats! You've taught an old dog a new trick! I had no idea, so thanks!
In what regard is it a trick? I would call it a basic knowledge.
Great video, and excellent job at showing the differences between the two.....I am just learning about JIS now, I didn't even know it was a thing until videos of the Vessel Impacta screwdrivers started showing up on youtube recently. Anyway, subscribed to your channel and I gave your video a "Like" too
Wow I learnt something off you tube cheers man
After you get the carb apart, install Allen head screws. They are cheap and plentiful in stainless on Ebay. I use a TINY dab of anti-seize on carb hardware threads which makes the next cleaning much easier.
good demo.
I bought the Vessel set, the difference is night and day
I've bought other sets that were marked as PH that have the same tip design as the ISO and work the same.
JIS was an old standard of certification for Japanese made screwdriver to alert people of good quality product. they are NO manufacturer in the world currently making JIS stamped screwdriver since 2008. the certification was made useless since all the Japanese driver company are now using the best grounding technology and are not making poor quality driver. there are many articles about the subject, this myth was mainly created by people getting frustrated with their poor quality Chinese made stamped screwdriver. in fact any good quality ground bit will do a better job than a rounded off pressed one...
"You don't want to round the head with a Phillips..."
I learned this the hard way on a 900 usd 50mm lens. I'd never even heard of JIS, none of my coworkers had, no craft or tradesman I know had. I even asked people I know that are literally from Japan and they had not heard of it! Now I have a stripped out head on a tiny, and I mean TINY, ass screw with no idea how I am going to get it out.
I've used a tiny flat blade screwdriver to get a striped Phillips out, but man... it's tough. It likely has to be one size smaller than the Phillips you're trying to extract, so that the flat blade can fit within the deeper part of what's not stripped/torn-up. Another option, is to try micro screw extractors made specifically for such situations. www.amazon.com/Moody-Tools-58-0670-Extractor-Reversible/dp/B000JCT3W0
Thanks for this!
Great info as I begin a 68 CL450 light restoration.
Toss your philips screwdrivers before you can bugger up the screws - you'll never go back to them after the JIS drivers.
I have a set of Vessel Ball grip screwdrivers...I swear they grip better on any screw phillips or JIS. A complete set of Vessels solves all "phillips" problems in one shot!
Vessel makes slightly modified ISO stamdard design drivers that are within tolerances, but just loose enough to fit old JIS screws and all Phillips screws.
I can’t tell you how many screws heads I stripped out not knowing that Japanese screw heads were different.
The tough part is finding quality JIS screw drivers with a hardened tip, any suggestions? I won’t consider tools made in china
What's use of philips number 1,2 & 3 Screwdrivers? Are they all different or anyone can be used for all size screws? How to select correct size?
Will a JIS screwdriver work on a phillips screw, i.e., it won't strip the head or cam-out?
a much more pragmatic approach for screws commonly encountered on typical used bikes, witch are usually screwed up before you get there, is to reshape them. i use a #2 phillips bit in a 1/4" socket on an old 1/4"drive extension, and put the bit in the screw head and smack on the end of the extension. the alloy steel of the bit easily reshapes the softer steel the screw is made of. something else that helps is vampliers vt-001-7sj. its pliers designed to bite into messed up screws to take them out. after you remove the damaged screws you can replace them with screws with whatever type of head you want.
Garon Burwell JIS drivers still work better on damaged JIS screw heads than a Phillips driver which is still designed to cam out. Using the right tool for the job makes all the difference.
yes there will always be idealism versus practicality. everybody gets to make their choice. another thing to consider for folks doing this frequently is the fact that you can't get a jis screwdriver off of a tool truck in most cases. i have a set of screwdrivers from a couple of the higher end brands and they get wear with regular use and due to that the #2 shanks get warrantied out on my sets probably twice a year to keep them fresh. if i got myself a nice jis #2, i'd get attached to it, and i'd be sore about having to mail it somewhere to get it warrantied from wear. even if i had 2 sets so i wouldn't be without, i wouldn't want to mail it off. i'm spoiled with tooltruck service and not having to mail something off or take a drive to get it back in shape. on most of my customers bikes the old boogered up screws get replaced with allens for a nice touch. again it's so rare that i'd see a screw not previously messed up and even if the customer couldn't see them on a bike once installed, i still wouldn't put the boogered up screws back in.
also to the point of the phillips head screw "designed" to cam out, the wikipedia article on screw drives seems to suggest against this old wives tale but then again wikipedia isn't an encyclopedia and anybody can basically write whatever on there.
Pragmatism is the ultimate practicality. If you use tols professionally, you should use prifessional tools.
Pragmatism would suggest that using high quality MODERN DESIGN ISO standard drivers is more practical than buying old design Phillips drivers from tool trucks or mass merchandizers . Properly used high quality manual screwdrivers do NOT wear out in regular use away from an assembly line. Cheap ones used incorrectly do. Provided that you use them properly, good screwdrivers ones last a lifetime. You can get ISO standard drivers which replaced Phillips in production use 20 years ago as hand tools, machine tool bits and as bits made for 1/4" and 3/8 impact drivers. They are inexpensive enough to discard if you fasten thousands of fasteners per day or if abuse your tools enough to wear them out.
I never knew. the dimple... how did I never learn this until now?
Do Jis screws have J shape at corners?
Are JIS and Mortorq the same?
Great review is jis the same as pozidrive screwdriver tip?
Correct, Pozidriv, Phillips, and JIS, all differ. JIS and Pozidriv do share the aspect that the screw slots are less tapered than Phillips.
JIS=Jazz.. yeah. Anyhow,JIS drivers are awesome. Vessel especially.
Very good info - thank you Tip do not use a Phillips head when taking off brake rotors on a Honda Accord etc. And if can use with an impact screwdriver (not on carbs etc)
William McCord ,where can I find impact driver bits for honda rotors?
Mr. McCord, I now know not to use a Phillips head screwdriver to take out the rotor screws on my Honda. Should I be using a JIS screwdriver and if so, Is there a JIS bit I can buy to put in my 5 piece impact screwdriver set (that only provides Phillips head bits)? It seems that that is what everyone uses to take out these rotor screws...it's insane!
Working on this 20+ year old MPI Monitor 422 (Japanese) kerosene heater, only a very few of the screws have the JIS dot dimple. On your carburetor, I see the same pattern. Many of the screws have no dimple, yet they are all Japanese manufactured. Do you then use JIS screwdrivers on ALL the screws, dimple or not?
A problem with old equipment like this is that techs over the years have made a mess of the screw heads from cam-out and miss-matched drivers. Think I'm going to pickup a set of the Vessel, www.amazon.com/Bessel-Vessel-Difference-Screwdrivers-No-220w-3/dp/B00E55DL4I
The other recent trendy thing with Phillips screwdrivers is to texture / diamond dust the tips for better grip. Most likely a late attempt at addressing some of the poor cam-out tendencies.
nice logo ;)
Damn as many times as I tried to loosen a screw with a Philips and it didn't worked, then allegedly grabbing a JIS before knowing what it was.
Thank you for the great information on the screws, [J.I.S] I have never heard of such a thing till now, but dealing with the Japanese that does not surprise me.
I think they're getting back at us from world war II LOL
Hey. I am posting a video about JIS screwdrivers soon and would love to use your carb display in the video to show the difference. Is it possible for me to get your permission to use a small clip of this video for my channel? Of course i will give you a shoutout as well. Please get back to me when you can. Thanks.
@@Neverstopbuilding thanks a lot. I will make it my next video.
Smart demo. I'm beginning to think JIS screwdrivers will work better even on Phillips screws. The Jawsfit solution is excellent. Will compare Jawsfit to SnapOn ribbed over time. Buying can be confusing. Vessel Jawsfit mean to turn. Phillips is a pain in the. Sorry but may the best design win. I bet some US manufacturer will begin making them. I hope they don't steal it as is the case sometimes. A nasty problem for US manufacturers I guess. Just make the darn tips sharper and harder.
Tom Jones That is my experience. The JIS work better on Phillips than a Phillips screwdriver.
JIS doesnt exsist any more. These conform to DIN 5260 which in turn is superseeded by DIN 8764 which most recent quality drivers confirm to and work on both philips and jis. So theres no need to go out of your way to buy these.
2:50, this is a valid comparison of a $0.97 screwdriver with a $8.90 screwdriver (that is the actual current price of both of those exact drivers). It is not a valid comparison of phillips to JIS.
1- they are not even the same physical size
2- the "JIS" screwdriver is clearly ground and of good quality steel, your other one is garbage pressed steel and rounded off
3-JIS was an old standard of certification for Japanese made screwdriver to alert people of good quality product. they are NO manufacturer in the world currently making JIS stamped screwdriver since 2008. the certification was made useless since all the Japanese driver company are now using the best grounding technology and are not making poor quality driver.
there are many articles about the subject, this myth was mainly created by people getting frustrated with their poor quality Chinese made stamped screwdriver. in fact any good quality ground bit will do a better job than a rounded off pressed one.
Mikuni :)
Spend $50 or less at Vesell, You won't believe the difference it makes.
I'm pretty sure the Phillips is just designed so that you cant break the
head of a screw off by over tightening, though modern drills make that
feature irrelevant.
That seems to be stupid reason and solution. Patent for phillips does not mention anything like that.
Shimano bicycle derailleurs had JIS bolts on all models in the past, have them on cheap models still and funny enough, all multitools have philips head screw driver for those JIS bolts mainly. Absolutely useless.
So basically this means Philips screwdrivers are useless. Get JIS screwdrivers (Japanese ones like Vessel are fantastic and cheap) and throw your PH screwdrivers to the bin.