Is it possible to progress after death?
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- čas přidán 26. 06. 2024
- In this episode, David, Kaitlyn, and Brett discuss their opinions on whether or not progression after death is possible. And yes, the hosts have different opinions! They talk about the implications of whether or not What do Latter-day Saint leaders have to say about progression in the eternities?
What do you think? Let us know in the comments below!
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My biggest hesitations with this idea comes from Alma: I won’t paste it here but if you read Alma 34:32-35, he says this is the time to prepare to meet god, in the next life you will not be able to perform your labors, you can’t live a life of sin expecting to change at the final judgement because you will have the same spirit in you that wants to sin.
In chapter 41 he continues this idea: you will be restored to the way you were in life. All this language feels so firm in the fact that you can repent and grow in this life but in the next you are stagnant and won’t be able to change.
This is still consistent with modern revelation of preaching to the spirits in prison because it says in D&C 137: 7-8 All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, WHO WOULD HAVE RECIEVED IT if they had been permitted to tarry shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God.
@@ConradOverly your correct with your hesitation. Modern Prophets have taught that there is no such thing as progression from Kingdom to Kingdom
The idea of progression between Kingdoms is false.
“**Mortal lifetime** is barely a nanosecond compared with eternity. But what a crucial nanosecond it is! Consider carefully how it works: **During this mortal life** you get to choose which laws you are willing to obey-those of the celestial kingdom, or the terrestrial, or the telestial-and, therefore, **in which kingdom of glory you will live forever**. What a plan! It is a plan that completely honors your agency.”
- **President Nelson**, (Heart of the Matter, (2023), 45)
> “There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.
>
> “Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
>
> “This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say,
>
> ***‘God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?’***
>
> “It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the ***__hope__ that they will be saved eventually.***
>
> “The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. ***The body we receive in the resurrection **__determines__** the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.***
> “Of those in the telestial world it is written: ‘And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end’ (D&C 76:112).
>
> “Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says: ‘Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. For these angels did ***not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged***, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God ***forever and ever***.’ [D&C 132:16-17]
>
> “They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. ***Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere***.”
- **Elder Bruce R. McConkie,** ("The Seven Deadly Heresies," in Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press , 1980], 74-80).
> “They will not be damned in the commonly accepted terminology but will suffer many limitations and deprivations and fail to reach the highest kingdom, if they do not comply. They become ministering servants to those who complied with all laws and lived all commandments D&C 132:16
>
> “He then continues concerning these excellent people who lived worthily but failed to make their contracts binding:
>
> “‘For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever’ D&C 132:17
>
> “How conclusive! How bounded! How limiting! And we come to realize again as it bears heavily upon us that this time, this life, this mortality is the time to prepare to meet God. How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity! How sad to be separate and single and apart through countless ages when one could, by meeting requirements, have happy marriage for eternity in the temple by proper authority and continue on in ever-increasing joy and happiness, growth and development toward Godhood.”
-**Spencer W. Kimball** (So Long as You Both Shall Live, October 1964)
@ConradOverly and @ClintK. You both speak the truth. The scriptures and words of modern Prophets are clear. We each choose which kingdom of glory we go to in this life. The Spirit World is not a second chance to qualify for a higher kingdom.
@@alang3991 If the spirit world is not a time to repent, then what do these verses mean in D&C 138?
32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.
33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.
34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
But it also says in 138 that the gospel was preached to those “in transgression,” or those who “rejected the prophets.”
@@SolaGratiaDefender Section 138 is referring to those who never had the opportunity to hear and accept the gospel in this life. Everyone gets a chance to hear and accept the gospel whether in this life or in the spirit world. But for those who had a chance in this life, but rejected it, they have made their decision and have chosen their kingdom of glory. Repentance in the spirit world is for those who didn’t have the gospel in this life, and therefore did not know what the commandments were and unknowingly committed sin. If they accept the gospel in the spirit world, they will then have the opportunity to repent of those sins. But for those who know that they have committed sins in this life, but choose not to repent of them, they have made their choice and will have to pay for their sins.
The atonement is either infinite or it is not. Simple as that
@@michaelhutchings6602 the Atonement was made for something very specific. What you're considering is not part of it. And outside of what is possible. It seems you're more interested in holding your own stance or beliefs despite what modern restoration scriptures and prophets have revealed on the matter. So it becomes a you issue instead of a doctrinal question. They have answered this in perfect simplicity and clarity.
@@ClintK.How do you know it’s not possible? Sounds like you are assuming or quote cherry picking.
@@michaelhutchings6602 I've given you ample evidence read the quotes and respond back. Cherry picking is a false flag. Cherry picking is when a person has stated both to the positive and negative of a subject and a person ignores one side and reports only the positive affirming position of their stance. I can't cherry pick when no Prophet or Apostle has ever taught the false doctrine of progression between Kingdoms. They have taught that it is a false doctrine.
To push back a little I have two thoughts:
1) God still has to abide by the universal and eternal laws correct? God would cease to be God if He violated the laws of justice, mercy, truth. So while Jesus' atonement is infinite in scope, power, reach the divine and eternal laws of the universe cannot be violated?
2) Maybe progression isn't about Jesus' atonement but more about man's agency. Perhaps the reason it's said there is "no progression between kingdoms" is because men are stubborn and dam themselves???
Anyway, I don't know what to think about this topic, and I have questions on both sides. What do you think???
I love D&C 19 - it’s God saying “I know you guys so well that I’m going to scare you for your own good.” And then it goes on to show how infinite and profound Christ’s atonement is.
Here is my take as a convert who has argued this issue out with my former Stake President:
Nothing is impossible with God because through the atonement we can receive ALL THINGS by faith. In the spirit world where all deception will be stripped away, if God is the God of the second chance then I believe that if people are willing to do the spiritual work to progress, it won't be denied them. Those who thirst to be in the presence of the Father and are not able to be because of where they've been placed, will have the opportunity to learn what they still need to know to be able to come more into His presence.
If people CANNOT progress after this life, then Heaven would become thoroughly boring and that puts a serious limit on the atonement. Part of the joy of being ALIVE is being able to learn, grow, and develop beyond where we are. Whenever we get stuck, that gives place to frustration and to our regression. So to become truly happy, we must be able to progress until we achieve the place where we are fully in His presence at which point all that we need will be made manifest abundantly.
I believe that you have to look at the phraseology of the scriptural text. I didn't hear you guys mention anything about the Millenium. Because there's a reason for us doing Baptisms for the Dead. Those who are sent to the Spirit World before the Millenium without the knowledge, or full knowledge of the gospel will have the opportunity to repent and receive the gospel within the Spirit World. There will be some form of progression or degression while within the Spirit World between the 3 Kingdoms. But once that time is over, or until an individual resurrects, they will then be given a Final Judgement and dwell within one of the 3 Kingdoms throughout all eternity. This Mortal Life, as well as the Spirit World is the time to prepare to meet God. With those who rebelled against the gospel being punished more than those who never heard of it, whether they repent or never repent while in these two lives. This punishment is determined by God and the individual. Those who live during the Millenium will have their time within the Millenium to progress, up to the resurrection after 100 years. Those in the Spirit World will have up to 1000 years. But after the Final Judgement, it is final or fix according to the individual progression. They cannot progress, unless you receive Celestial Resurrection. Then they will have all the opportunity to progress and become more Celestial as our Heavenly Parents.
This is all of my personal thoughts, according to the wording and phrasing of the gospel doctrine.
@@vestvids7680 The idea of progression between Kingdoms is false. You're on the right track.
“**Mortal lifetime** is barely a nanosecond compared with eternity. But what a crucial nanosecond it is! Consider carefully how it works: **During this mortal life** you get to choose which laws you are willing to obey-those of the celestial kingdom, or the terrestrial, or the telestial-and, therefore, **in which kingdom of glory you will live forever**. What a plan! It is a plan that completely honors your agency.”
- **President Nelson**, (Heart of the Matter, (2023), 45)
> “There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.
>
> “Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
>
> “This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say,
>
> ***‘God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?’***
>
> “It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the ***__hope__ that they will be saved eventually.***
>
> “The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. ***The body we receive in the resurrection **__determines__** the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.***
> “Of those in the telestial world it is written: ‘And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end’ (D&C 76:112).
>
> “Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says: ‘Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. For these angels did ***not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged***, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God ***forever and ever***.’ [D&C 132:16-17]
>
> “They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. ***Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere***.”
- **Elder Bruce R. McConkie,** ("The Seven Deadly Heresies," in Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press , 1980], 74-80).
> “They will not be damned in the commonly accepted terminology but will suffer many limitations and deprivations and fail to reach the highest kingdom, if they do not comply. They become ministering servants to those who complied with all laws and lived all commandments D&C 132:16
>
> “He then continues concerning these excellent people who lived worthily but failed to make their contracts binding:
>
> “‘For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever’ D&C 132:17
>
> “How conclusive! How bounded! How limiting! And we come to realize again as it bears heavily upon us that this time, this life, this mortality is the time to prepare to meet God. How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity! How sad to be separate and single and apart through countless ages when one could, by meeting requirements, have happy marriage for eternity in the temple by proper authority and continue on in ever-increasing joy and happiness, growth and development toward Godhood.”
-**Spencer W. Kimball** (So Long as You Both Shall Live, October 1964)
The final judgement is exactly what it says it is. The last Judgement. Once you're in your perspective kingdom that is it. You stay there throughout eternity.... Period!
Did Joseph Smith say that a murderer would commit suicide to obtain the glories that await him in the Telestial Kingdom? Or is that a myth?
I was going to Bring up the D&C 19:6 thing, as I just read it a few days ago. however that talks about the punishment for those who have to pay for their own sins, since they did not qualify for the grace of salvation. I know of no doctrine that allows for upward mobility from one kingdom to another. and every indication is that it won't happen.
I'm not sure what I think about this however I recently had some thoughts about this.
First, if there is progression in each kingdom wouldn't that basically mean that a lower kingdom would basically ride to a higher kingdom over time? For example, people in the telestial kingdom learn and progress and over time the telestial kingdom rises to become a terrestrial kingdom???
Second, if people are limited to a kingdom then wouldn't that by default mean progression would cease at some point? If that progression ceases inevitably the joyful kingdom will cease to be joyful and stagnant instead???
Just some recent thoughts haha. Honestly I learn towards no progression, but these ideas open my mind haha
I think you are stuck as well unless you can undo the resurrection into a different body. We are told that our bodies are different based on our kingdom. Can you upgrade your body? If it wasn't for the body thing, I could understand the potential for intra-kingdom movement.
I really liked Brother and Sister Givens's perspective on this in their book The Christ Who Heals. My only addition for consideration is that God really loves us, and eternity is a very long time. The effect that that love can have on us over the course of such a long time is wild
Have you ever really taken a few minutes to ponder what “eternity” really is? Forever. It almost gives me a panic attack when my brain tries to comprehend that. You have to really sit and think about it, and then you’ll realize we can’t even comprehend what it means. We have been taught that this life is just a blink of an eye compared to eternity. With that as the backdrop, it seems incomprehensible that the choices we make in this blink of an eye determines where we will stay forever. When we have eternity, everyone who wants to can eventually be where they want to be.
Also, even though I agree with David, I will push back on the purpose of ministering. Though helping others to reach exaltation is one purpose of ministering, it is not the only purpose. We also minister to help people in their pain, to be like Jesus, to mourn with those who mourn.
Do you think there’s a loop hole in Gods plan? Or its part of the Plan. Or maybe the plan of salvation that we know is only the 1st part of His plan and the 2nd part will be shared on the second coming(millennium).
Yep 👍 one could hope great topic thanks !
Personally I think that one of the key qualities of our natures that will separate us into the Celestial kingdom will be our willingness to learn and progress.
Three points:
1. The D&C says that lower kingdoms will receive ministrations from higher kingdoms. Why do that if there is no possibility for progress in lower kingdoms?
2. The Lord went out of His way in the D&C to clarify that Eternal Punishment means His Punishment and that He never said there was no possibility of those in outer darkness ever getting out. Why would he say that if it wasn't to correct the misconception that outer darkness is a dead end with no exit?
3. God does not deprive the people in hell or outer darkness of every shred of agency. Doesn't Christ's atonement have the capacity to succor anyone whose choices turn for the better not matter where they are?
Let’s go back to the beginning and frame this discussion around agency and becoming. God says, The end goal is eternal life; to be like me; to possess ALL that I have and BECOME all that I am. To help you in this quest here are the rules, the commandments, the absolutes. I give you these so that you know the CHARACTER that is required to become a god. For no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of god. There are no shortcuts, no cutting corners, no way to keep your favorite sin. You must become clean in BODY, heart, mind and spirit. You cannot rebel against eternal law. You cannot rewrite law to fit your carnal desires. You have to become totally obedient, not because I told you to and you fear punishment, but because you have BECOME. It is what you are. You no longer sin, because it is no longer who you are. Once you are born into mortality, you are no longer simply a spirit, willing to submit to the will of the Father because I am near you and your nature is to please me. No, in mortality I won’t be with you, and because you will now be clothed in a body, you will experience appetites and passions you have never before experienced. You are given this probationary period of mortality to learn how to control the body, to bridle the appetites and passions of the flesh, to bring it into subjection and compliance the spirit, and with the bounds I have set. It will not be easy; in fact, it will be very hard. But there is no other way to BECOME, except by agency and CHOOSING. Your choices will mold you into what you will become. Each choice is important. CHOOSE WISELY.
The time to prepare to meet God is BEFORE the judgement, not after. He has given us this time to make mistakes and to learn from them and repent, or change. Each time we do, through the ATONEMENT, we are forgiven. This process continues and refines us until we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually. Then, will our calling and election be made sure and the Holy Spirit of Promise - the Holy Ghost will seal us up unto eternal life.
To become a god we must be willing and able to shoulder the responsibility of godhood. Our progression stops when we refuse to progress further, ie, take on any more responsibility. You cannot be a god if you are not willing to do the work of God.
So, will there be progression between kingdoms? I think it is highly unlikely. Otherwise, why would the Lord give us so much detail about those in the various kingdoms? If progression were just a long ladder, why not just put us all in the same pool and let swim around together and come out when we feel motivated to do so? Well, that’s what he did? That’s where we are now. But there has to be a time, after we have shown our CHARACTER by the CHOICES we make that there is a judgement and a reward. That’s why we are admonished not to procrastinate the day of our repentance. For the night cometh wherein no work can be performed.
Oh my goodness!!! What a great topic. David, like you said, what would be the point of ministering if there is no hope of progression. Another thing, why bother doing baptisms for the dead if they can't progress? Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ want so desperately to have us be with Them, but they won't force us. We had our agency in the pre-mortal life, the mortal life and the post-mortal life. If my family was in the Celestial Kingdom and I was in the Telestial Kingdom . . . I'd like to be with my family and I would do anything to be with them. Satan doesn't want us to believe that there can be a progression. He wants us as miserable as he is. ~ This is a tender subject for me. Tuesday, 25 June 2024, I started my Mom's ordinances!!!
Entering any kingdom requires the ordinances of salvation. Baptism is necessary for all.
There is a period between death and the resurrection for all spirits to learn the truths they didn't learn or understand in this life and to have the opportunity to choose to follow Jesus Christ and accept their baptism by proxy and other ordinances/covenants performed for them. Our mortal life will be judged first based off of our knowledge, understanding, experiences, upbringing, environment, and so forth, with perfect mercy and justice. This first judgement affects how things will proceed from there during the period between death and the resurrection. As they mentioned, with greater light and understanding comes more accountability. But more light and understanding is the greatest blessing - it's only a matter of *when* we will receive it whether in this life or in the spirit world. And when we do we can make the choice whether we want to follow Jesus Christ and continually try and learn to become like Him or not. God hopes we will choose to follow Him because our greatest joy and existence comes from following the kind of life and existence that They do. The kind of existence where love, family, and all goodness triumphs. It's a learning process so we just need to be willing to learn. To be willing to follow the good laws of God's Kingdom. God knows our hearts and all of the reasons for all the details in our lives and will know which Kingdom's laws we are willing to follow.
And then whether or not we will be able to go to a higher Kingdom after we have entered a Kingdom at the time of our resurrection we can't say. But it may just be a matter of which laws of which Kingdom we have shown we are willing to follow at any given time that determines which Kingdom and glory we will dwell in. But we may not know until the next life.
@@josephinerogers79 You have articulated the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints very well. I agree that it is what has been revealed so far. I'm merely putting forth an extension of the doctrine. The Fall separated us from the presence of God and the acceptance of the atonement brings us back into God's presence, baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost symbolizing our acceptance of the atonement. Those who go to the Telestial Kingdom are "heirs of salvation." To be heirs of salvation requires them to have accepted the atonement, and therefore, they will have to receive at least the ordinance of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, which will be done by proxy for them. For eternity, they will be "servants of the most High" assisting in God's work. They will need the Holy Ghost with them in order to know what they should be doing. They will be busily engaged in bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of God's children for eternity.
@brb5506 My reply was to nettajar1938 actually, but regarding baptism, my understanding is that it is the gate into eternal life which is the life of God in the Celestial Kingdom and since we must do the will of the Father to enter into his Kingdom and his will includes baptism, then it is necessary to be baptized to enter the gate into the Kingdom where the Father dwells which is the Celestial Kingdom. If they accept the baptism performed on their behalf by proxy it will be them accepting the gate into the Celestial Kingdom which is them agreeing that they want to follow Jesus Christ to enter into a covenant that they are willing to follow the laws of the Celestial Kingdom. When they accept the Savior's gift of the atonement, repent, and choose to follow Jesus Christ (which includes baptism and progression to become like Him) they will be saved from the consequences of sin, be considered clean, and show they are willing to follow the laws of the Kingdom where God dwells which allows us to enter into the presence of the Father in the Celestial Kingdom.
*Within* the Celestial Kingdom there are 3 degrees of glory as well and in order to obtain the highest degree, which is exaltation, we must enter into the covenant of the marriage sealing or accept the marriage sealing that is performed for us by proxy and have shown we are willing to live the higher laws associated with it.
The Terestial Kingdom is for those who accept Jesus, but aren't willing to follow the laws of the Celestial Kingdom, but have shown they are willing to follow the laws of the Terestial Kingdom and had lived fairly decent lives on Earth; their sins either weren't severe or if they had committed severe sins they chose to change their ways and felt remorse for those severe actions (repentant of severe sins if any were commited). For their lesser sins that did not repent of, or are not repentant of after learning and understanding them in the spirit world, they will suffer for a time for those which suffering will be less than sins that are severe. People from the Celestial Kingdom can visit there. Jesus will often come there, but does not dwell there. The Holy Spirit will be present, but does not dwell there.
The Telestial Kingdom is for those who do not accept Jesus and did not live decent lives on Earth, who's sins were severe and against their conscience without excusable reason, and did not repent (change of heart and action) or felt remorse, but were not perdition and kept their first estate by choosing to come to Earth to live a mortal life. They will have a period of time they will suffer as if no atonement was made which will be a state of hell for a time, because they do not accept Christ's atonement and/or did not repent. The Telestial Kingdom is the state the Earth is in now since the fall of Adam. So people from the higher Kingdoms can visit there and the Holy Spirit can be present there, but doesn't dwell there.
Outer Darkness (hell) is for sons of perdition which is Satan and his angels and his servants. They either did not keep their first estate of living a mortal life and were fallen angels (Satan and the 1/3 host of heaven that followed him) or during their mortal life chose to serve Satan even with a full and complete knowledge of the truth of God, denying it while fully knowing it; denying the Holy Spirit. Like looking at the sun in the sky and saying the sun does not exist when they know it does, but choosing to deny it. They choose to follow Satan and all of the evil and consequences that comes with it whole heartedly.
This is my understanding at least from all I've been taught in church, from scriptures, and the temple.
@@brb5506 The ordinances of salvation are necessary to return to the Father’s presence (Celestial Kingdom). The Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdom have no such requirements. The only Kingdom that lists Baptism as a requirement is the Celestial Kingdom (see D&C 76:15).
I saw Nelson say we do not progress from a lower kingdom to a higher kingdom.
And other General Authorities have said at times that we can. So clearly this is not a well understood issue that needs more clarity on it long-term. Whatever the truth, we need to just love one another and give each other room to agree to disagree.
@@randomandology your correct here is a quote from him and others.
The idea of progression between Kingdoms is false.
“**Mortal lifetime** is barely a nanosecond compared with eternity. But what a crucial nanosecond it is! Consider carefully how it works: **During this mortal life** you get to choose which laws you are willing to obey-those of the celestial kingdom, or the terrestrial, or the telestial-and, therefore, **in which kingdom of glory you will live forever**. What a plan! It is a plan that completely honors your agency.”
- **President Nelson**, (Heart of the Matter, (2023), 45)
> “There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.
>
> “Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
>
> “This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say,
>
> ***‘God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?’***
>
> “It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the ***__hope__ that they will be saved eventually.***
>
> “The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. ***The body we receive in the resurrection **__determines__** the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.***
> “Of those in the telestial world it is written: ‘And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end’ (D&C 76:112).
>
> “Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says: ‘Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. For these angels did ***not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged***, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God ***forever and ever***.’ [D&C 132:16-17]
>
> “They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. ***Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere***.”
- **Elder Bruce R. McConkie,** ("The Seven Deadly Heresies," in Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press , 1980], 74-80).
> “They will not be damned in the commonly accepted terminology but will suffer many limitations and deprivations and fail to reach the highest kingdom, if they do not comply. They become ministering servants to those who complied with all laws and lived all commandments D&C 132:16
>
> “He then continues concerning these excellent people who lived worthily but failed to make their contracts binding:
>
> “‘For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever’ D&C 132:17
>
> “How conclusive! How bounded! How limiting! And we come to realize again as it bears heavily upon us that this time, this life, this mortality is the time to prepare to meet God. How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity! How sad to be separate and single and apart through countless ages when one could, by meeting requirements, have happy marriage for eternity in the temple by proper authority and continue on in ever-increasing joy and happiness, growth and development toward Godhood.”
-**Spencer W. Kimball** (So Long as You Both Shall Live, October 1964)
@@Redeemed1983 I’ve never read or heard of a Prophet (or Apostle) who has said that. Do you have a specific reference where a Prophet said there is progression between kingdoms? If you do, please post it.
I'll admit, this is one of the harder subjects for me. I'm not sure I believe in progression between kingdoms because I think that kind of takes away the work many put into their probation. That said, I do think God wants us all to succeed. I'm very torn, but I don't think I'd complain either way.
Yup, "Eternal punishment" refers to God's punishment because he is eternal and it is his punishment.
One can hope.
Chapter 17 of the Philosophers Stone answers most of these questions
Apostles have come out with opinions on both sides of the issue. I think it is one of those wait for more light and truth to be revealed situations.
Also there are a lot of mentions of "in mortal life and in the eternities".
I've come to view the Plan as a way for us to gradually settle into our final form-mortality is a time for us to explore our priorities and show our true colors. What is truly most important to us-following God, or doing something else-has been a part of our character since premortality, and we're here on earth to learn to act in accordance with those fundamental motivations.
So in eternity, we are all living our most authentic selves and therefore have no reason to deviate from that. Exalting everyone was Satan's plan. Movement between kingdoms is impossible not because the atonement of Jesus Christ is insufficient, but because those who are there would have no desire to take advantage of it
'Odds Are, You're Going to be Exalted' by Alonso Gaskill, is a wonderful exploration of this topic. Please check it out.
Great book!
All in all, whatever God's plan is will be just. What we think is just may not be what God thinks is just, however. "Neither are your ways my ways, nor your thoughts my thoughts" or whatever the exact scripture says. So I'm not entirely sure if debates like this are productive. I do remember reading a verse a few months ago (sorry, couldn't find it) that made judgement sound very final. Still, a very interesting topic to discuss.
Fun to think about. Eternal progression. Most religions believe that there is (Heaven) Celestial kingdom or you go to Eternal Hell and burn forever. Most religions is why there was a need for the restoration of the plan of salvation.
I say there be a round 2. Bret needs a rematch
I think God would love to have all his children come home. But I'm with Brett on this one. Why? Because there will be those who will not want to be in the Celestial kingdom. Thinking back to Bro. Wilcox's talk "his grace is sufficient." Also, once we resurrect, the body and spirit can't separate, a celestial body is different than that of a Terrestrial body and Telestial body, once the resurrection happens, that's it, your stuck with the body you are given. A telestial body can't live in a higher glory. Lucifer will never have a body. He and those who followed will never pass the first estate. Why then those who do not pass the second estate, have the privilege of going further than that, if those who failed to keep the first estate can't progress? Sounds harsh, but remember that we have lived for a long time before coming to this life. If in this life we choose God, weather you are LDS, Catholic, Muslim etc. And live in a way that your true desire is to live by God's law, I'm sure there will be time given before the resurrection to let go of false doctrine and embrace the gospel. As far as why celestial beings can minister to others in lower kingdoms, perhaps it's for reasons unknown to us. Perhaps is to meet certain requirements for other goals unknown to us. Ministering does not have to be all about progressing to the next kingdom, it could be about having access to knowledge for other purposes. I don't doubt Christ's Atonement is sufficient to bring us all home. The issue is us, the issue is agency. We are the problem because many of us will choose to reject the free gift.
The question is FINAL JUDGMENT or The millennium. I believe progression can occur in and during the Millennium. The righteous will be resurrected to their glories in that moment of their life and its fullness, however, I believe that every person can progress to a higher kingdom (and perform other miracles during this time) but only during the millennium. Once Satan is loosed again, each person will be tempted and tried again, and the atonement used but Final judgment that follows, is, final.
Brett made me sad. 😢
Great episode! If the purpose of this "estate" is to establish a starting point for the deification process in the next then the Savior's atonement is truly infinite. Who could help but be encouraged and uplifted by a loving God that meets them where they are at? The alternative is a people coerced into obedience by a fear of missing out. Which of these theories is more in line with what we know about the nature of God?
Interesting thing I heard recently, Hiram Smith actually taught that progression between kingdoms is possible but also digression:
Franklin D. Richards kept a small book in which he recorded quotes from Hyrum and Joseph Smith. In it, he wrote, “Hiram [Smith] said Aug 1st. Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial or else the moon would not be a type, [because] it ‘waxes & wanes.’”
There are so many silly statements and ideas in this discussion that it's unlistenable.
Progression between kingdoms denies the entire plan and specifically the point of mortality and judgement. Sad Mormon heaven is completely irrelevant. So many scriptures, so many apostles, even pres Nelson spoke about this topic with great clarity. I’m surprised anyone still believes progression between kingdoms. Progression does not deny infinite and eternal - infinite means it covers all and eternal means the type and duration like eternal punishment in the d&c.
Progression between kingdoms enhances the plan of salvation by making it eternal to those who would choose to repent in the eons to come.
@@michaelhutchings6602 doesn't enhance it. Sure makes you feel good to consider it. That negates the whole purpose of His plan which centers around mortality and Christ. You're ignoring the fact that the resurrection itself will deny that ability to pass from Kingdom to the next. The idea of progression upward is false.
“**Mortal lifetime** is barely a nanosecond compared with eternity. But what a crucial nanosecond it is! Consider carefully how it works: **During this mortal life** you get to choose which laws you are willing to obey-those of the celestial kingdom, or the terrestrial, or the telestial-and, therefore, **in which kingdom of glory you will live forever**. What a plan! It is a plan that completely honors your agency.”
- **President Nelson**, (Heart of the Matter, (2023), 45)
> “There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.
>
> “Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
>
> “This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say,
>
> ***‘God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?’***
>
> “It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the ***__hope__ that they will be saved eventually.***
>
> “The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. ***The body we receive in the resurrection **__determines__** the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.***
> “Of those in the telestial world it is written: ‘And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end’ (D&C 76:112).
>
> “Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says: ‘Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. For these angels did ***not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged***, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God ***forever and ever***.’ [D&C 132:16-17]
>
> “They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. ***Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere***.”
- **Elder Bruce R. McConkie,** ("The Seven Deadly Heresies," in Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press , 1980], 74-80).
> “They will not be damned in the commonly accepted terminology but will suffer many limitations and deprivations and fail to reach the highest kingdom, if they do not comply. They become ministering servants to those who complied with all laws and lived all commandments D&C 132:16
>
> “He then continues concerning these excellent people who lived worthily but failed to make their contracts binding:
>
> “‘For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever’ D&C 132:17
>
> “How conclusive! How bounded! How limiting! And we come to realize again as it bears heavily upon us that this time, this life, this mortality is the time to prepare to meet God. How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity! How sad to be separate and single and apart through countless ages when one could, by meeting requirements, have happy marriage for eternity in the temple by proper authority and continue on in ever-increasing joy and happiness, growth and development toward Godhood.”
-**Spencer W. Kimball** (So Long as You Both Shall Live, October 1964)
@@jeremybelinski7713 your spot on. Here's some prophetic modern revelation proof.
The idea of progression between Kingdoms is false.
“**Mortal lifetime** is barely a nanosecond compared with eternity. But what a crucial nanosecond it is! Consider carefully how it works: **During this mortal life** you get to choose which laws you are willing to obey-those of the celestial kingdom, or the terrestrial, or the telestial-and, therefore, **in which kingdom of glory you will live forever**. What a plan! It is a plan that completely honors your agency.”
- **President Nelson**, (Heart of the Matter, (2023), 45)
> “There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.
>
> “Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
>
> “This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say,
>
> ***‘God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?’***
>
> “It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the ***__hope__ that they will be saved eventually.***
>
> “The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. ***The body we receive in the resurrection **__determines__** the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.***
> “Of those in the telestial world it is written: ‘And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end’ (D&C 76:112).
>
> “Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says: ‘Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. For these angels did ***not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged***, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God ***forever and ever***.’ [D&C 132:16-17]
>
> “They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. ***Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere***.”
- **Elder Bruce R. McConkie,** ("The Seven Deadly Heresies," in Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press , 1980], 74-80).
> “They will not be damned in the commonly accepted terminology but will suffer many limitations and deprivations and fail to reach the highest kingdom, if they do not comply. They become ministering servants to those who complied with all laws and lived all commandments D&C 132:16
>
> “He then continues concerning these excellent people who lived worthily but failed to make their contracts binding:
>
> “‘For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever’ D&C 132:17
>
> “How conclusive! How bounded! How limiting! And we come to realize again as it bears heavily upon us that this time, this life, this mortality is the time to prepare to meet God. How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity! How sad to be separate and single and apart through countless ages when one could, by meeting requirements, have happy marriage for eternity in the temple by proper authority and continue on in ever-increasing joy and happiness, growth and development toward Godhood.”
-**Spencer W. Kimball** (So Long as You Both Shall Live, October 1964)
@@michaelhutchings6602 The belief in progression between kingdoms conflicts with the basic principles of the Plan of Salvation, the scriptures and the teachings of all of the Prophets. In effect, you are denying what Amulek said in Alma 34:32-37 that this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God, don’t procrastinate your repentance until you die because this life is the time to prepare for eternity, after you die comes the night of darkness when no labor can be performed, and the same spirit who has power over you in this life will have power over you in the life to come.
The belief that we can progress between kingdom’s is in essence saying it’s okay to “eat drink and be merry…” in this life. Someone will eventually do your temple work and someday, somehow, we’ll all end up in the Celestial Kingdom anyway.
David won. And we can liken ourselves to amphibians. And even platypi...
I honestly don't think we'll EVER stop progressing! However, about the ability to progress from one kingdom to the next, will probably only be within the range of each kingdom. As I understand it, each kingdom, ( terrestrial, celestial, & celestial)each have 3 glories within them.. so I believe that we can progress to a higher glory within whichever kingdom we are placed in. Plus, with the enormity of those glories and kingdoms, it will take rather lengthy times to even be allowed to step up to the next. We will have the desire to keep learning, with no time constraints. Thus it could take many lifetimes to progress a little...
sounds like prison 😮 🔥
@@mikespage0123 ...I mean, not really? If I had an infinite lifespan then I'd want to infinitely learn and progress.
@@Draegoron you can study in prison
Wouldn't we reach a point in a lower kingdom where it would either become a higher kingdom or where our progression would stop? If our progression would stop wouldn't therefore our joy also stop???
Idk what to think but just some questions about it haha
Devil to Mormon: “You can be more happy over there in that next level kingdom where the grass is greener. You just gotta work for it.” *hands coal shovel to Mormon* 🔥 😮
@mike..that's just plain dumb.
@@dwRS1 right, Mormon afterlife is dumb
@@mikespage0123 1st Corinthians 15:40-41. The Bible teaches that there is more than just Heaven and Hell. It teaches about the 3 degrees, Celestial, Terrestrial and Tellestial. People who are ignorant usually make fun of things they don't understand.
I was just wondering about this topic today. My father has not accepted the church and he may die soon 🔜. I'm a little worried 🙁 for him. This topic is a grey area for me.
Jesus was sinless, not because He couldn't sin, but because he chose to be obedient. I don't believe there's a penalty box, per se, but i do believe that disobedience creates discomfort for us (and others). As we are more obedient to true principles, we draw closer to God. I have to believe that's true after mortality.
I believe we can change after we die, that's why we have missionaries in the spirit world. Those who are in spirit prison can get out when they repent and accept the Gospel. Those in paradise won't leave and go to spirit prison. After we are all judged and assigned to one of the 3 kingdoms of glory, we cannot go up or down to a different kingdom. ❤
this is like asking if you can move from one ward of a prison to another. Still a prison. Also conflicts with the family is forever con if you can’t move around to see family, prison or not.
Let me preface by saying I’m commenting for the sake of adding clarity to your comment for those reading the comments; I have zero interest in engaging in a debate.
There is movement between the kingdoms; the Celestial can minister to the Terrestrial, and the Terrestrial can minister to the Telestial. Higher kingdoms can visit the lower ones.
Being in a place for which you are not prepared or comfortable could also be a prison/not “heaven” for some people.
Also, as David said towards the end of the video, we don’t believe we know ALL there is to know about the eternities.
Also, this debate is in no way settled even amongst mainstream Christian denominations! Plenty disagree about whether or not a person goes “straight to heaven” after death, or if (as the scriptures say much more frequently, plus that parable in Luke about Lazarus the beggar and the wealthy man) a person “sleeps” until Judgement, or goes to “Abraham’s bosom” if they were righteous, or a place of torment if they were not, following death (and are those places heaven or hell? They certainly didn’t sound like “final” destinations as Jesus told the parable…).
Many different denominations say many different things about what happens immediately following death, or when a “final” destination might reached, or even what might (dis)qualify a person for a particular destination. Plenty of disagreement on that front, too!
@@gingersnaps215 sounds like a lot of Mormon rationalization going on there. Mormon heaven is still a prison
Not sure why you say there isn't an official stance. Prs. Oaks and Nelson both talked about this in last conference. No progression between Kingdoms. Also answered when you consider the resurrection. You will have a very specific body for that Kingdom that is not compatible for a higher Glory of Kingdom.
The Book of Mormon answers this and many prophets from Joseph Smith to present. Just got to read the words of the Prophets.
Because past prophets, as recent as Harold B Lee, have believed there was. Brigham was a huge proponent of the idea. There is no official Church stamp of approval one way or the other and to claim otherwise is without evidence.
Can you show the quotes where they said that? Because I’m almost certain they did not and you are just interpreting something they said that way.
@@SolaGratiaDefender lots more but these should suffice.
The idea of progression between Kingdoms is false.
“**Mortal lifetime** is barely a nanosecond compared with eternity. But what a crucial nanosecond it is! Consider carefully how it works: **During this mortal life** you get to choose which laws you are willing to obey-those of the celestial kingdom, or the terrestrial, or the telestial-and, therefore, **in which kingdom of glory you will live forever**. What a plan! It is a plan that completely honors your agency.”
- **President Nelson**, (Heart of the Matter, (2023), 45)
> “There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom.
>
> “Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.
>
> “This belief lulls men into a state of carnal security. It causes them to say,
>
> ***‘God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually; if we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will; so why worry?’***
>
> “It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the ***__hope__ that they will be saved eventually.***
>
> “The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies-some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. ***The body we receive in the resurrection **__determines__** the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared.***
> “Of those in the telestial world it is written: ‘And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end’ (D&C 76:112).
>
> “Of those who had the opportunity to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage in this life and who did not do it, the revelation says: ‘Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven; which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. For these angels did ***not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged***, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God ***forever and ever***.’ [D&C 132:16-17]
>
> “They neither progress from one kingdom to another, nor does a lower kingdom ever get where a higher kingdom once was. ***Whatever eternal progression there is, it is within a sphere***.”
- **Elder Bruce R. McConkie,** ("The Seven Deadly Heresies," in Speeches of the Year [Provo: Brigham Young University Press , 1980], 74-80).
> “They will not be damned in the commonly accepted terminology but will suffer many limitations and deprivations and fail to reach the highest kingdom, if they do not comply. They become ministering servants to those who complied with all laws and lived all commandments D&C 132:16
>
> “He then continues concerning these excellent people who lived worthily but failed to make their contracts binding:
>
> “‘For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever’ D&C 132:17
>
> “How conclusive! How bounded! How limiting! And we come to realize again as it bears heavily upon us that this time, this life, this mortality is the time to prepare to meet God. How lonely and barren will be the so-called single blessedness throughout eternity! How sad to be separate and single and apart through countless ages when one could, by meeting requirements, have happy marriage for eternity in the temple by proper authority and continue on in ever-increasing joy and happiness, growth and development toward Godhood.”
-**Spencer W. Kimball** (So Long as You Both Shall Live, October 1964)
@@SolaGratiaDefender another one though not as specific. "To have been on the wrong side of the freedom issue during the war in heaven meant eternal damnation. How then can Latter-day Saints expect to be on the wrong side in this life and escape the eternal consequences? The war in heaven is raging on earth today. The issues are the same: ‘Shall men be compelled to do what others claim is for their best welfare’ or will they heed the counsel of the prophet and preserve their freedom?"
President Ezra Taft Benson
@@ClintK. Yeah I see that quote but to me that doesn’t suggest there can be no progression. If you’re getting hung up on the phrase “eternal dammnation,” I feel like that is addressed in this episode where they read from D&C 19.
I think yes - if you want to progress and choose to do so, God will give you that opportunity. However, it’s probably easier to do so here on Earth, because it’s a better test of your moral agency.