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Reacting to one of the worst pieces of classical music ever
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- čas přidán 1. 12. 2021
- Let me tell you why I think The Battle of Prague by Frantisek Kotzwara objectively sucks.
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This is probably why Mozart wrote a musical joke
Mozart also wrote some really dull pieces
Repeats in baroque music are meant to invite the solo performer to show his mettle in improvisation. A lot of the music experience is the performance itself, which is why many pieces may sound stale today even though we _know_ they knocked people's socks off back in the day. The answer as to "why" can hardly be found in the little black dots in the score, but the performances. Imagine if recording devices had never been invented, and people 300 years from now were to dig up old sheet music of Pink Floyd and set up a performance of "The Wall" - on original instruments! How likely is it they are going to be able to capture the magic of the original band?
Granted, no one could point to The Wall and say "that's objectively bad", but if you don't understand the sound then any performance is going to be missing a vital ingredient. Same with any other kind of music. Without recording devices, future understanding of blue notes might get twisted as well, and how would today's music sound without blue notes?
Also, we have plenty of experience today with songs that are wildly popular for a very short span of time and then they disappear from public consciousness. And in these cases, too, the performance is typically essential - down to the visual performance. Would Gangnam Style have gone viral without that video, without that dance? I kind of doubt it.
In sum, if something was popular, there must have been some merit to it. If we can't find it, that still doesn't mean there was no merit to be found.
This is probably one of the most well thought out arguments I've heard in response to this video. Granted, I made it over two years ago and my opinions have since evolved, but the general point of studying what not to do still stands.
Just a general thought on what you mentioned regarding repeats in Baroque music: It's completely ridiculous that improvisation is given barely any focus in classical music programs despite the fact that it held a significant place in Baroque and Classical music, especially when modern popular music makes plenty of room for it. Being able to improvise well is an important skill for a professional musician to have.
Still much more interesting than Enaudi.
😂
😂
You mean Ludovico Einaudi? Why?
Ein-garbage- naudi is grade 1 key changing exercise. Absolute rubbish
It's definitely not "bad" obviously, but it's definitely a "heard it all before" moment before it's time.
Loaded with tropes no doubt.
It sounds very boring
It definitely IS bad, what are you taking about?
@@markodern789 it's not amateurish. It's just loaded with boring and uninspired, rehashed ideas. And plus, anything "bad" is subjective. The idea of "bad" art in the modern ages comes from consensus. Even if you think it's "bad", some people might not think of it that way. It's all about perspective.
@@justinsundstrom8976 it is amateurish, are you a musician? You also say that "it's loaded with boring and uninspired, rehashed ideas" which is precisely my idea of what bad music is. Which means the consensus between us should be that it IS, in fact, bad. You have to agree with me.
Subjectivity is inversely proportional to how smart, open-minded, experienced you are. You can't be absolutely objective in art. But you can approach a very high level of objectivity nevertheless.
this sounds like a buster keaton film score
Didn't see your comment, but I'm glad we agree :-)
it's actually not because it's bad, actually because the file used is a poor dynamic and quality here. there also exists an orchestral version which actually has something more than this.
Best I could find. There was one I found of a human playing it but... well, I won't name names.
@@alexrockwellmusicTheres even a reason why you said thats it when the piece ended. the dynamics in this is very poor, the finale should be like grand fff
This reminds me of the stuff I would write in Musescore at age 12 - terrible video game "orchestrations", original pieces that were all in C major, melodies that I made up on the spot and never actually developed...honestly it was pretty fun even if I never was any good.
Oh yeah, I remember doing that too. I wish I could have found a decent non-MIDI performance of this piece, because it's inevitable that it will sound like crappy video game music. I've only found one video of a human playing this and it's... not good. Unlistenable, really.
@@alexrockwellmusic hello I dont know if this is the version you found but I am sorry if it was unlistenable. Its my version on my Broadwood square which was made in 1812. I was trying to capture what students at the time might have experienced. W do try our best to put pieces in context. czcams.com/video/QAClfdFw_Ww/video.html
I did something even better when I first did the exact same thing. I did that, but just played random 12 note chords at random and called it "music".
It is cliché at its near-purest. Aside from military fanfares it is transitional runs made to be the feature. Yes, Mozart and Haydn do this in their music, but these runs lead from one geat theme to anotheror a slight restatement of a main theme. Most likely Kotzwara was far moe a performer of others' work (for which people got little credit in their day) than of his own works.
In fairness to the composer, the Wikipedia article on him does state that this piece was popular with his contemporaries, and remained so into the nineteenth century. That's not necessarily a sign of quality, of course, but it does suggest that the piece was in accordance with taste of the late eighteenth century.
In the middle nineteenth century, a book of dreadfully preachy free verse poems called Proverbial Philosophy by Martin Farquhar Tupper was extremely popular.
If it goes out of vogue and revivals are failures, it's probably bad. Gimmicks are catchy, but they wear out fast and cannot cover for a lack of invention and cohesion. So why should one listen to this instead of the obvious ones (Haydn, Mozart, Rossini, and Beethoven)? Maybe there is some obscure composer who is worth listening to. Would you revive this work?
There is always something (sort of, at least) new, and there is only so much time for listening (whether in concert halls, radio, or personal stereo).
@@paulbrower I'm not trying to argue for the work's intrinsic quality; I was only emphasizing that the composer's contemporaries did apparently appreciate the piece.
That said, I do think revivals are always defensible, as mediocre and even bad works can still be instructive witnesses to historical and cultural change.
@@barrymoore4470 He faded. This is not simply a matter of being out of style. Highly-pictorial pieces are especially vulnerable, as the pictorial qualities often conceal structural and other musical weaknesses -- and can become irrelevant. Do we get excited about battles anymore? We are more likely to recognize war for what it is.
Kotzwara isn't the only composer to fade. Joachim Raff used to be a favored composer in concert programs; most of us have better uses of our time.
9:30 this section is literally the only interesting section of the whole piece, im honestly surprised he was able to think of this minor melody when all the other sections were so bad. Honestly should have just composed the whole piece in minor lol
Totally agree
I think repeats can work for 1. Dance pieces (longevity) and 2. First and second endings. For example, in a waltz I wrote there is a section that repeats four times: twice for a first and second ending, then twice again for a De Segno al Coda.
A few things about this period. Most people got to hear a composition once, if at all, so composers had to do a lot of repetition to get the material into the audiences' head. Also, there was a big market for easy piano music, since before recorded music the living room piano was the only musical resource people had, particularly aristo on country estates. Check out Jane Austen's music library, which is covered online somewhere. So this would have been for young ladies to show off their accomplishments. But technical analysis like this doesn't really do it. Consider maybe the most famous of all classical melodies, the Ode to Joy. The whole tune is contained within a 5th, save one dip to the dominant below. The first 8 bars are up and down scales, 4 bars ending on an imperfect cadence, then the same 4 bars with a perfect cadence (the "answer"). Not unitl the 9th bar is there a "leap", and it's only from the 3rd to the tonic. The only point of interest, really, is the 3rd beat of bar 12 going to the dominant below, the only break from the 5-finger exercise, then back to the mediant, now syncopated across bars 12-13, followeds by a repetition of the 4-bar "answer". Totally banal - yet it works.
One of Francis Poulenc's students "A.V. Koskinen" composed a fugue which was considered to be so bad by his teacher that he was expelled on the spot and told to never return. (I have not tested the validity of this claim, saw it on the internet somewhere). You can look up "The worst fugue ever composed" and it'll probably come up.
Just gave it a listen. I've certainly heard better fugues. It's ridiculously complex, that's for sure.
I guess Poulenc did kick him out, but Koskinen still returned and continued to study with him after that incident.
I can never escape koskinen
Only battle of Prague i can think this could represent is reenactment of medieval battle of Víkov hill from 1920. Everyone wanted to be reanacting Hussites so the Crusaders were played by local factory workers who had none of it. They defeated the Hussites and battle continued by occasional barfights for the rest of the day...
The trumpet repeats for a reason:
In a peformance, the trumpet section represents many things when repeated.
One represents the trumpet of recall, one represents the trumpet of the dragoons arriving, one for the trumpet of victory and one which i dont know why is in the finale titled "go to bed Tom"
I realize this video is 2 years old, and I'm not coming to comment with malicious intent, but to me, music can't really be objectively bad, and the decision to play it on a performance software is a bit unfair if you're trying to judge it as a musical composition. I would say the piece is rather dry and of its time, but I can't say it's bad. I would probably just call it uninteresting to me, but someone else could definitely enjoy it, depending on the person.
The point I'm trying to make is that its objective quality and its subjective quality are very separate, while exploring what makes a musical composition objectively good or bad. In this case, I believe it fails to achieve its own apparent goals, making it a poor-quality composition. But like I said at the end of the video: there's no accounting for taste. It's still possible and totally okay for someone to find enjoyment in music that one could argue is objectively not good. This whole video was also an attempt to explore what qualities make a work of art good or bad.
And I know the MIDI performance is not ideal, but I was only able to find one recording of a human playing this piece, and I didn't find it to be very well-executed (sloppy, mistakes, etc.). I figured it would be better to avoid giving anyone the chance to bag on the performer and keep the focus on the composition.
@@alexrockwellmusic I definitely hear what you're saying. I hope my comment didn't come off as overly critical or negative, because I think the overall point you made you're video is extremely helpful for those studying musical composition. I feel like emphasizing intent and the framework you're judging the work by would have made for a more objective viewpoint. Also, I appreciate your decision to use the midi in retrospect and I apologize if I came off as mean spirited.
I'm imagining the composer writing this, in a rapture of inspiration, looking up at a crucifix and saying "Grazie, signore"
Hahahaha
I get it, but I've certainly heard worse. For my ear it's more just unimportant than really "bad" though obviously he's not in Mozart's league. Thank you for an interesting video.
Its awful. Have no idea how you could think otherwise.
When I was studying a history of classical music from medieval to 20th century I came across a composer by the name of Etienne Joseph Floquet. He was a contemporary of Gluck I believe. He started out well but according to Wikipedia he ended up flopping later in his career.
I've tried looking for his music but I can't find anything. Anybody else even heard of this guy?
I've never heard of him. I think I just read the same info you did. It seems he mainly composed operas and his career was totally eclipsed by Gluck and Piccini, so he faded into obscurity. I think the reason his works aren't performed today isn't necessarily because they're bad; it's because putting on an opera is really expensive. It's in any company's best interest to stage works that are recognizable and will draw an audience.
@@alexrockwellmusicWhich Russian operas apparently don't, not in the States at any rate.
Tonic-dominant-tonic-dominant-Tonic-dominant-tonic-dominant- (yawn,,,,,,,,) Tonic-dominant-tonic-dominant- (falls asleep, falls off horse) Tonic-dominant-tonic-dominant- (still asleep)...Tonic-dominant-tonic-dominant- English army arrives (God save the King0 Tonic-dominant-tonic-dominant- (snoring, everyone else goes home) Tonic-dominant-tonic-dominant-.....
Yeah, that about sums it up.
It sounds like those little warmup pieces before I played Für Elise lol
LOL! I was thinking the same thing!
There is also something about all these right hand chords that doesn't sit well. At times it is not even that easy to play but there is rarely a hint of actual inner voices.
Oh, my favourite classical form: "Some Notes"
We don't develop themes here like Sonata plebeians.
EDIT: Apparently The Battle of Prague isn't a single piece but a ten movement opus. Also, there are many descriptive labels in the original edition which aren't presented here: innumerable gestures labelled "cannon", one labeled "all the drums and all the cannons"; "rolling fire"; an episode of "horses galloping"; a "stabbing attack"; and "Turkish music". This is very important, because without their inclusion, the sheer creativity and motive of each of these passages is lost to the fact that each piece of material here is totally indistinguishable from one another.
Yes, it is a highly programmatic work with distinctly labeled sections. Still, it's pretty clear that it's intended to be performed straight through, as the individual movements (if you can call them that) aren't even complete pieces; they're just little themes depicting the various episodes of the battle.
I didn't include those annotations in the video because one, I was working from a MIDI performance that generated a score that needed more reformatting than I wanted to take the time to do (I was making videos weekly when I made this one); and two, the themes' depictions are so on the nose that I didn't feel much was missing. Fair point, nevertheless. Either way, like you said, despite its episodic nature, there's hardly any development of any themes.
@@alexrockwellmusic By the way, no sincere blame for not including them; you're right. In no way do these episodic descriptors or movement boundaries make this piece somehow more comprehensible (if anything, I thought they escalated it to a special level of banality). Except "all the drums and all the cannons". That's indisputable poetry.
I'll tell you what people noticed first when they started to hate it: the "DA DADA DA DA DAAAA!" endings peppered throughout. I wonder if this is where it started?
It's a classical trope for sure. He really runs it to the ground here.
If P.D.Q. Bach had written this it would still be interesting, though he was mocking boring music.
Right, at least then there would have been an underlying joke
Before 1945, no music could be called truly bad, because truly bad music is like truly great music in one key facet, namely that it is memorable. Truly bad things leave an impression, which just okay things don't.
This is far worse than Mozart's "musical joke", his conscious attempt at writing bad music. Richard Atkinson does a good breakdown of this on his You Tube channel.
I'm so glad you mentioned lack of development near the end of the critique. It was that and the lack of thematic efficiency that most stood out to me as being thoroughly inadequate during listening to the piece. That and some of the harmony didn't quite working in certain places within the context of such a simple harmonic palette. Definitely not a piece I shall desire to listen to again.
Those are really the biggest issues with it. Even the most uninteresting themes can be saved by good development, but he fails to get any of them off the ground.
@@alexrockwellmusic yeah, well just look at what Beethoven could do with a certain 4 note motif that might have become just a little well known.
Mozart wrote a piece called "A Musical Joke," which is a parody of bad composers. This piece is worse than "A Musical Joke."
I would really like to keep seeing what makes this song bad haha. Maybe bad guitar compositions?
Great stuff!
There's no shortage of those!
Sorry but I don't see anything sooo bad about this music.
Apparently Haydn was so inspired, he wrote a hundred pieces just like it
Even the greats had a lot of duds
“The Maiden’s Prayer” by Tekla (or Thekla) Badarsczewska. And it was EXTREMELY popular.
5:54 The start of the best worst 80s video game music. Way ahead of his time.
František Kočvara was a genius, more than a century ahead of his times. He was the first to anticipate silent cinema piano music.
That's generous
Thank you for the lesson. I learned something new today.
I just returned from the world premier of Marcela Rodriguez's Triptych in Mexico City. Her composition was everything this piece is not. Her work will not enter the hall of greatness, but it was interesting, and filled my brain with blood -- as all good music should do.
At the start of the piece you played, I thought you were being too critical. It was pleasant enough. With the eighth bar, the pleasantness morphed into repetition. And then into terminal inanity. I could hear Peggy Lee humming in the back of my head.
Thanks for the lesson. I know more now than when I started the video. Keep posting on this topic.
also please react to more terrible classical pieces! Its very interesting
Man, I've thought about it, but my whole idea that music can be objectively good or bad triggered a lot of people when I first posted this on my FB page. I don't really feel like rehashing that haha
Essentially, what I notice, is that it's only a bunch of I and V all the way. Aside from that only one V/V, but what about the other chords? I mean, a missed opportunity to at least use the circle of fifths
There's a bit more than that, but it's still very harmonically stale overall
Thank you for an excellent video. Lots to think about and disagree about (the best kind of video). I agree its technically dreadful by our standards but I do think like to about it in context. Also as a woman I feel its the nearest I will ever get to even beginning to understand what 18th century battles might have involved. It is fun to play and the original music is very attractive to look at.
It's a nice song, don't get influenced by their elitist mentality of judging things by technical points instead of enjoyability
Even if it sucks, it's still. a lot of fun !
Beethoven's Diabelli Variations was based on a similarly straightforward theme.
Programmatic battle music rarely works out*. We may say Beethoven wrote 9 symphonies, but he also wrote a 'Battle Symphony' Op 91 commemorating Wellington's victory in 1813, which advisably tend to forge. Obviously it is not as inept as this example, but that does not make it much good.
*Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture something of an exception in that it is fairly well put together.
As if Shostakovich were an Eighteenth century composer.
I suppose I am still absolutist (or I suppose, absolutely relative) about there being no coherent idea of objective quality in music or art generally one way or the other. Perhaps a better way of looking at it is, within the context and framework the artist was clearly working in, they clearly did not meet the aesthetic goals they were clearly intending to meet. Enjoyed the video, all that being said!
That is a great way of putting it. It's difficult to say what could conceivably make a work of art objectively good or bad. I don't think there can be a universal standard. Different cultures and different generations and traditions have their own broader aesthetics that don't always translate to others.
But certainly within a work's own context, we can easily look at whether or not they met their own goals. If they didn't, then perhaps we can call it "ineffective" rather than simply "bad."
While I'm not an absolutist like that, I actually really enjoy this piece and like the battle pomp and feel of it, it really reminds me of a nice grand battle, perhaps at Prague though without knowing the history of that battle. So for me I think the composer actually succeeded. That sort of makes you think, as their success in conveying the emotion of the battle (as they saw it), if that's the aesthetic goal you had in mind of theirs, depends on the individual listener. So perhaps it's truly hard to measure a piece's quality even by that standard (though I still believe quality exists. Something can still exist even if it's difficult to measure)
I think I got through about 5 bars before I decided it was dreadful: boring is a charitable understatement. That plus the fact it was very obviously a (very bad) imitation of Mozart: a style which I’ve never particularly enjoyed.
It's like all the worst parts of Mozart
Poor guy! He did what he was able to do. But your comments gave me a good laught! 😂
Reams and reams of Mozart and Clement piano music are no better than this.
I mean I'm no Mozart fanatic, but it's not hard to see why his music is objectively better than this.
The tune towards the end is the British national anthem (or my countrty tis of thee) Presumably the Brits won!.
I think it is also a bad piece of music which some people might find enjoyable to listen to. Mark Twain says of Wagner's music that it is really better than it sounds. In this case, people are saying the opposite: it is worse than it sounds -- meaning that they enjoyed the music. I, too, questioned if there could be rotten pieces in classical music because the term classical gives validation. It also connotes superior music -- “serious” or “art” music -- as opposed to “folk” music. And yet classical musicians have borrowed a lot from folk music: Stravinsky borrowed from African music, Debussy from Polynesian music, List borrowed the melody of Hungarian Rhapsody from a gypsy, etc. They all go to the common well. But there is more pretension with classical music. I find this composer like Fernando Sor in that he borrows common melodies (God Save the Queen). Sor borrowed the tune “He's a Jolly Good Fellow” from somewhere, which makes me hate his piece. Sor does a good job of doing variations, but I still hate the piece because of the melody. That is all I can hear. Anyway, I do think there are objective criteria or standards to judge if the music is good or bad. Otherwise, nobody can teach it. If there are no standards, students can do anything they want and still pass. You can still fail a music exam because you didn't do your cadences properly -- you don't understand how functional harmony works. So there are standards, after all.
Well said. I especially like your point about everything going to the common well.
On the Sor piece you're referencing - we English speakers know it as "For he's a jolly good fellow", but the melody is actually a French folk song called "Malbrough s'en va-t-en guerre" (Marlborough is going off to war). Sometime around the mid 19th century, the melody had made its way to England and was being sung as "For he's a jolly good fellow". The English words we now associate with the melody have nothing to do with the original French song.
Sor's variation set predates the English version of the song. He also lived in Paris for a large part of his life, so he likely wouldn't have known the melody as anything other than a French folk song. He did live in London for a time, so it's possible he heard it there, but the piece was published under the title "Variations on Malbroug", so I think that makes the matter pretty cut and dry.
All that being said... I agree with you. As an English speaker, it's hard to hear the melody any other way. I think it's far from Sor's best work. There's nothing wrong with it; it's just a matter of taste at that point.
I just looked this piece up and it seems that there is an orchestra version
Yeah, I'm not sure if the composer is the one who orchestrated it though
@@alexrockwellmusic yeah i just found out the original is meant for pianoforte (early piano basically)
Also if you are curious, his name is pronounced “frantishek kochvara” (from his czech name of František Kočvara)
Sounds like the background music for a low budget nintendo game.
The fact that it's a rough MIDI sequence doesn't help
The only parts he DOESN'T repeat are the ones that are almost interesting! 😂
It sounds like a layman's attempt to emulate Mozart, but where this composer fails miserably is creating the contrasts that Mozart is able to create in his works.
My view is simple good classical music can be found from Strauss (Jo II).
It needs melody and repetition. After a few repetitions to show what's happening it needs variation.
Often it helps to have surprise. (EMPEROR WALTZ, WILLIAM TELL ordering of phrases not always followed by the same thing.)
The lowest standard of OK music IMO is about TICO TICO or FEURFEST POLKA.
One measure of complexity is how long is the fragment before it repeats.
Bad music is nearly all pop since 1960. They often think they can get away with one melody of 10 seconds repeated over and over.
Yeah I don't subscribe to the notion that as a society, we have produced no good popular music in the last half century.
Pretty much all of the piece was transcribed wrongly, as it comes to placement in the bar. Beat one lay on beat four!, and then the first beat lay one eight too early measure after measure... Why didn't you correct that?
I know it is. I started to make the corrections, and then quickly realized it would have taken ages. At the time I made this video, I was committed to making a new one every week, and time just wouldn't allow. The MIDI performance was good enough for my purposes, so I let it slide.
If I were to do it over again, I would have fixed the notation. Or better yet, I just wouldn't have made this video at all!
Yes, it's objectively bad. It might work as cartoon music, but it's bad enough to have its own cult following.
Thank you for bringing Kotzvara to my attention! Now, I’m no newcomer, nor even an amateur, but this guy was outside my knowledge, so I did a basic search. Turns out that - like me - he was violist, bassist, and composer. LOL. I promise to be careful to be not-so-bad a composer! Also figured out he died 3 months before Mozart. Possible they met or even performed together.
Let's cut to the terrible movie//terrible piece chase. The worst movie:: ""Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill!" (yes, actual title), and the worst classical composition: "Piano Concerto No. 1" by Rod McKuen, who is better known as a poet, but a composer as well. There. All done.
I'll have to check them out!
Sounds like the piano part from a Buster Keaton movie
It sounds like it wants to end itself. So many times it just resolves and has that typical classical ending but it just never ends, the theme is just never ending and repeating over and over again without even the slightest bit of tension or variation. Also why in the world would he just shove God Save the Queen in the middle? It just sounds so out of place.
I think the overuse of perfect authentic cadences, mostly all in the same key, is what really makes the whole thing feel so off. He ends it too many times!
This awful thing had a vogue in the 19th Century. Someone had me play it at university. I nearly died laughing :P
Also Mozart sounds horrible when played by an automat - this video is not objective.
It sounds worse when played by a human, trust me
Relating to whether a piece of art is "bad". For movies the example of "The Room" is a funny choice because critically. Yes It was a bad, critically but the consumers found enjoyment from it. Unintended as the result was, it yielded a positive. Something critically bad can be loved by consumers. For something to be "Bad" it has to be across the board, critically, publicly and privately disliked. If music makes you feel nothing, not Love, Hate, Happiness or anything at all. Then I would call it bad. Music that doesn't make me spew emotion is a personal failure.
I think the distinction is between objective and subjective. The Room is objectively bad, but subjectively well liked, even if only because of how hilariously bad it is. Just because something is objectively bad, that is, it completely fails in its own objectives and undermines itself doesn't mean somebody can't find enjoyment in it.
If a work draws attention to its banality (mockery of banaity is critically and acceptable) and pretends that it is wonderful then it is Kitsch. Folk music and folk art are free of this conceit and are thus enjoyable. Paintings by William Bouguereau, which exaggerate women's breasts within neo-classical settings, are repugnant to me. Don't let me get into politically-charged, but intellectually-empty monuments of 'socialist realism' or the fraudulent delusions of grandeur of fascism and Ba'athism. Mercifully the Nazis didn't commission musical works celebrating Nazism, war and militarism, and of course, Jew-hating; those would not have stood up to the likes of Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Schubert, Bruckner and Brahms.
There will be experiments that go badly in 'classical' music, like the bulk of the music from the gap between baroque and classical eras and (my opinion) most of Liszt's tone poems. Liszt, unlike many other composers, did not know enough to torch his trash. Like Liszt but in a different era, Telemann composed profusely and unevenly. One has to go through the trash to find Telemann's genuine masterworks.
The Prussians won. The tune of God save the king is was also the national anthem of Prussia "
Music not great but its not positively unpleasant as some pieces can be. The worst music I've heard is Samstag aus Licht. After 20 mins I had to walk out, it was like a self-parody. Maybe it was an emperor has no clothes test, you were meant to walk out.
It does seem a bit trite. It reminds me of the typical piano accompaniment for a silent film - I can imagine Keystone Cops with this. Chaplin or Keaton would have enough moments of pathos to keep this from fitting well. I doubt that this is really the worst classical piece from its period. The really bad stuff probably did not sell well enough for copies to survive.
Probably true
It's already died. I agree. Let it go. 99% of music has gone the same way. So what!
Worse yet: Wellington's Victory by Beethoven. Musicologically interesting due to Beethoven's work with Mälzel. But as a piece of music - many consider this THE worst piece of music ever.
Not sure I've heard it. I'll have to listen to it.
@@alexrockwellmusic Way back when I did an arrangement for double wind band - actually split the one I was conducting at the time. The original version was for Harmoniemusik and then "arranged" for symphony orchestra.
From Wikipedia: "After the Battle of Vitoria, Beethoven's friend Johann Nepomuk Maelzel talked him into writing a composition commemorating this battle that he could notate on his 'mechanical orchestra', the panharmonicon, a contraption that was able to play many of the military band instruments of the day. However, Beethoven wrote a composition for large band (100 musicians), so large that Maelzel could not build a machine large enough to perform the music. As an alternative, Beethoven rewrote the Siegessinfonie for orchestra, added a first part and renamed the work Wellington's Victory." I was working at the Musik-Akademie der Stadt Basel (Switzerland) at the Prep Dept. at the time. I got hell from a house Beethoven expert for how I re-arrange Beethoven's work. But ... when he needed a copyist to set his music, he called on me and we worked together for almost 10 years. I was a beta tester for Finale, having started using it with version 2.0.
I got eight minutes into the video. I did what I could. I'm leaving now. Sorry. You did a good job, though. Don't get me wrong. In fact I'll check other videos in your channel. But this... if I get bored with Rossini's formulas, this piece is something else... it's the Wikipedia of common places.
well this is antiphonic at the start, and the source is not clear. You also do not let we hear the music as it is. Later it sounds like many other average composers of the time, this means: mostly much better than any good composer of today trying the same.
The piece was way too long to provide a standalone listen before getting into talking about it. It uses a lot of classical tropes, but the near total lack of development of ideas is what really stinks about it.
And then there's Djabadary's 3rd concerto, so bad it's good!
I actually love that one!
Georgians and Armenians are as bad with the symphony as the Americans are with serious music in general.
Even Hanon is more interesting!
This piece is nowhere close to the actual worst piece of music ever written: "Bolero"..........and the worst couple ever in the history of figure skating who skated to that piece in their routine all the time, Torville and Dean. They're nothing but horrific boredom!!!
PS: The fact that some people call them the greatest couple in the history of the sport makes me sick!!!
Ravel's Bolero is brilliant, I don't know what you're talking about
@@alexrockwellmusic Apparently you don't. So, being as you're clueless to something so obvious, you shouldn't have replied.
PS: You're dismissed.
Again, I'm not sure what you're talking about. What's obvious is the reason that it's brilliant. The tired old criticism is that it's overly repetitive, and thus boring, which, if you find it to be boring, that's just your taste, and that's fine. But the repetition is deliberate. It's not a bug, it's a feature. The themes are developed through tone color by passing them around the orchestra. The dynamics, the timbre, and the number of players are constantly being varied, and the themes are harmonized in various ways as the piece goes on. The development is constant, but subtle. He clearly composed it with a self-imposed creative restraint, and it demonstrates the many ways a theme may be developed that one might consider secondary.
The only one I feel sorry for is the snare player.
@@alexeicogan4733If it's any consolation, I'm with you on Ravel's Bolero. The composer said it had "no form, properly speaking, no development, no or almost no modulation" and on another occasion made a remark doubting that it was music at all, whatever he might have meant. It drives me up the wall after a minute or two, variations in orchestration notwithstanding.
Have You ever heard Hans Moeckel?
I have not! Enlighten me!
@@alexrockwellmusic Hans Moekel (1923 - 1983) was a Swiss composer. He was, so to speak, the "house composer" of Swiss public radio (Broadcasting was then a state monopoly in Europe) He composed "light classical", a music style popular in the 50s. It contained all the clichés of classical music, but none of their strokes of genius. He composed music for radio plays, and later TV shows, and anything that needed music on public radio. He was conductor of the „Unterhaltungs-Orchester des Schwezer Radios“, the entertainment orchestra of Swiss radio. He also conducted the brass band of the police department in Basel and several brass bands of the Swiss Army. He composed „Schlager“, movie soundtracks, pop hits and musicals. But his „light classical“ was the most cheesy you can think of.
@@nielsensejltur I love that. I'm sure it's all incredibly boring. I'll have to give some of it a listen when I have the time haha
Perspective.
Maybe to him it was what he felt.
That really to me is the way to go.
Repetitive movement shows torment. It seems to be the feel he was going for.
Death. Moments of brief peace. Optimism. It's a war. But hey you hated it. So that's another perspective. I once was walking with a kid and we heard an old lady humming. To me it was beauty. To the kid which its environment told it needs to be a certain way couldnt feel the beauty. Perspective
When I play my keyboard
Yeah keyboard.
I just feel. Not what others want. But what I feel in that moment. I love just drifting off in the keys not knowing what's next. No structure. That to you may sound horrible lol. But to me it made me feel.;)
@@ImmortalIdeas Perspective is subjective. I'm not interested in that here. I'm more interested in what it is that makes this obscure piano piece so terrible when it comes from someone who is known for being among history's worst composers. If most people think it sucks, there must be some reason for that right?
My conclusion is that this piece is really ineffective. Within the context of what it set out to do, it just isn't working. The fact that its own internal structures are largely disagreeing with each other is probably a contributing factor in its poor reception. All that said, does that mean somebody couldn't enjoy it anyway? Absolutely not.
@@alexrockwellmusic the only part I don't agree on is where you said if most people dont like it. The rest was great. Most dont even try.
Most turn on radios where 5 or more people made a song and the singer didnt even write it. So that to me is false emotion. I guess that's all I seek. Lol.
Or.... is it now that I'm creating music i see more now. Like a carpenter walking into a structure and seeing the flaws.
That's why i asked if it's boring also.
And thanks for answering. And please dont take offense at all. I'm mean it as good music lesson to myself.
@@ImmortalIdeas Writing music is "reversing the gaze" as my composition teacher used to say. You're on the other side of the mirror now.
And for the record, there's nothing wrong with an artist performing a song that someone else wrote for them. The ability to do so at all is a unique blessing of music as an artistic medium. It's no different from me playing a piece by Bach. I didn't write it, but my job as a performer is to bring out the magic hiding in the notes on the page. To do that effectively, I have to understand the music on a number of levels. There's an art to interpreting music. It's the same thing as some pop singer performing a song they didn't even write. I think it's only sleazy if the actual songwriters don't receive writing credits, but they almost always do.
@@alexrockwellmusic thanks for that light. I think ever since I started making music I have become more critical. In a bad way tho. Now I'm like what!!! I made mine myself! And it took 5 to make that dribble.. so it's not a good thing. To each their own. But before I started making music I would enjoy that stuff. Now I despise it.
Lol! And at the same time its given more respect for other music. I never tried to make music before. Never tried.
And 2 yrs ago my friend was playing his keyboard and said here you try. And i just went at it. Felt very weird. Like it wasnt me. I even get visuals. So yeah theres that weird bit of info lol.
It's always a wooden stage and a grand piano. Black. Seats empty.
But still weird to me. Lol.
Anyways
I reached out and just started playing
He was like wth? And so was I
Lol. I dont play majestic. Just how I feel.
My fav instruments are now the piano and violin or any orchestral. I even love classical now. So it's been a weird experience for me. Hence why I ask a professional like yourself questions.
Your on your game for sure bro.
Me I'm just drifting in an experience.
Now I understand the composers that Mozart made fun of in a musical joke
The Battle of Benny Hill... would sound even better on a kazoo!
I like videos like this, a little against the grain u know
Repeats of expositions in sonata form makes sense. When they're left out, something seems wrong. They're not letting me get to know the material. So when they get to the next part where the keys change alot ( I forget what it's called) my brain just can't deal with it as well. But that's just me. Stupid old me.
I agree with that. I usually prefer to omit repeats of the development and recapitulation though. A sonata is essentially a more complex rounded binary form, which are usually structured AABB. I almost always think AAB is better.
HAHA! P.S. You have beautiful eyes, the best thing about this video!
why thank you
predictable and tedious and the transition to God Save the King has no drama. Oh, well...even by classical standards the repeats are annoying....but you've got it right....It's totally an amateur move. You hear this occasionally on CZcams with some newby composers...but this is pretty extreme composing laziness or utter lack of imagination. Another amateur trait is to fail completely at what the composition aims to present...in this case a battle...it's so blandly jolly you'd think it was a commemorating a game of spinning jacks. It could have been called 'Eating Vanilla Ice Cream'.
Yeah! This one was pretty boring. Poor Kotswara...he tried to do his best. I've studied, performed and taught music for many, many years, so I've heard all kinds of pieces: mostly good, some bad. It has always puzzled me why so many people love Ravel's Bolero. I think that it is one of the most boring compositions ever written. It's the same thing over and over again. Don't get me wrong, I love Ravel's music, but Bolero misses the mark.
I think what makes it compelling is that he develops the theme through orchestration and dynamics rather than changing the notes. There's occasionally some harmonization of the lines too, if I remember right. The whole piece is like one big crescendo.
I get why people don't like it though. It seems to me that Ravel took a creative constraint - repeat the same thing over and over - and did what he could with it. It's sort of a divisive idea. I don't know if it needed to be 17 minutes long or whatever it is, and I feel bad for the snare player, but I do find it enjoyable to listen to.
In the U.K back in the 70's a satirical magazine who had some truck with the only national U.K classical music station back then held a competition where it asked its readership to send in to a request show the worst pieces of music they could think of. Anybody who's request was played was awarded a prize. The winner was Khatchaturian's Third Symphony. If you think the fanfares here are dubious, you aint heard nothing yet.
A bit like most mid 18 th century dross, lacks contrast, dynamics and largely tuneless..
I like it 😅
If this isn't the inspiration for Nine Inch Nails... just simply for contrast. Nice Musical Analysis of NIИ -_March of Pigs_ czcams.com/video/Zr7PbpJeB9Y/video.html
palette cleanser after this... um. palette cleanser?
Even the classical composers who aren't well known today achieved way more than a loser, who makes videos for 2,000 people while wearing a hat. This piece is just one of the thousands examples of classical music, that are not relevant today. It's not the worst piece of classical music by any definition.
Interesting, tell me what else you know about me
You know what this sounds like? It sounds like a piece of music that was written in order to make an audience of musical idiots feel intelligent.
Like, I can just imagine someone listening to this piece and unironically saying to their friends "Oh! I recognize this part from before. I'm so smart and musically gifted!"
Talking about famous pieces that people can't stand, have you ever estimated how many kids were turned off to classical music PERMANENTLY by having to listen/sit through "Peter and the Wolf" over and over and over? It's agony to have to listen to this awful composition! Why do orchestra conductors and music teachers think that kids would actually like this garbage? Maybe someday the Wolf will actually take out Peter. Then we'll never have to sit through it ever again!
You call this bad?
I thought it was quite okay. The melody wasn't too bad. If asked to nominate any classical music that I would regard as sucking to high heaven, I'd point my finger at several of the works of Olivier Messiaen.
Why?
nah Messiaen is the GOAT
"Play Salieri"
Basically a generic material based piece, non interesting at all, so like every single thing Czerny composed 😂
Wrote my comment too early, Czerny was definitely much more inspired than this guy, anyway this sounded like the music from a bad and cheap 8-bit game
Maybe he’s being ironic(?)
Hard to say
there is no bad or good music, only music you like or you don´t
Nope
agree
still better than anything by serialist composers, come at me.
Eh
Ngl, I got a lot out of this video. Good stuff!
thanks!
Scott Joplin e.g. ELITE SYNCOPATIONS has perhaps more repetition than you would like. Suppe has idea after idea but little development. But I think both are good.
Better than kanye
Certainly no winners in this battle. Thanks for opening up a much under-researched aspect of musicology. Have you encountered this by Heraclius Djabadary (sic)? It's so hilariously awful it has a sort of tarnished lustre to it. czcams.com/video/XBIe7stRUyU/video.htmlsi=1MPWH9QPPpetm40P
Some of the themes are a little hokey, but at least it has a development section! I thought the first movement was the worst of the three.
Yo it’s a piece by the guy who died from autoerotic asphyxiation while having sex. Cool!