well you can if your infantry are a little better, the pikes arent supported, if you use Rome (the most OP faction), you hit them with javelins first, and the pikes break up so you can flank them. If you do all of that then you can sort of beat them from the front. It also helps if the pikes just sit there while you pelt them with pilum and position yourself.
@Janglenutter to be honest if u hit any unit from the back with cavalry it will wreak havoc. XD. PS. I dont play this game but know a decent amount of classical/medieval combat.
If you really want to beat pikemen double up infantry, loose one formation after first gets contact. Unzip the formation by forcing the loose guys through. You have to actively micro a push, expend some dudes but begin the actual attack. You can't bet on loose pike formations. Unzip them manually if necessary. But generally skirmish and rear cavalry attacks are best
Infortunaly, in that game, the arms of soldiers and their weapon don't break during battle, so that strategy, will give you a lot of bresaola if you want... But not victory... Bresaola is horse meat
But... Legionary cohort is kinda end-game unit, while pikeman is tier 1 ~ 2 unit. They should be fighting against Foot Companion, not just common pikeman squad.
+Il-Young Jung I just massacred a near full unit (100+ men) of egyptian thorax pikemen (tired, high morale, very heavy pike) with a half strength (exhausted, low morale, 68 men) town militia principes (very heavy sword). This tactic works! They came in 4 ranks deep. I spread out to two ranks deep, loose formation, with formation attack off. Then I prayed. :D
Hey, you were in luck. I just tried something similar in EB: Rorarii, Akontistai and Greek Levy Hoplites, supported by Equites Consulares, all half strength or lower, against a full unit of Syracusian Hoplites. I won by the narrowest of margins.
In ancient times, Pikes were often used without gaps between groups of pikemen. The flanks of the Pikes were protected by more flexible troop types, e.g. hoplites, hypaspists, thorax swordsmen, etc.. This is how I try to use them in Total War games.
@@Anti_Septikum pike turns slowly moves slowly so a turned pike is gotta arrive at the flank late and expose its back for easy missile target and die to charges easily. basically no pike is best not to turn.
@@Anti_Septikum and even if you do turn pike moce so slowly it cant catch anything, you are never gotta catch a unit thats not already engaged. you sound like someone who doesnt play multiplayer land often bro.
Remote Detonation It seems to be an really effective way of defeating spike units but one important point is missing. What do you wanna do if there is a close formation between spike units and you can not get them from the side? Specially in towns by small ways and streets. But the main idea is great, thanks for that =)
It ignores the most important mechanic in real life though. Roman legionaries were actually almost immune from archery attack. They could advance with large rounded shields that the arrows would mostly bounce off of, and had in later years excellent body armor and helmets as well, that were for all intents and purposes arrow proof. Phalanx however were effective when densely packed and the long spears were two handed weapons meaning they did not carry shields. Yes, this left them vulnerable to flanking, especially from cavalry, but even more so to archery volleys. The Romans engaging the greeks would hit the phalanx with skirmishers, ballista, and archers that could hide behind the heavily armored and shielded legionaries. This forces the phalanx, which cannot move quickly with the large heavy spears and dense unit formations to try to engage as quickly as possible head on, otherwise the missile attacks, of which the legionaries themselves carried two pillum to launch attacks, opening themselves to flanking attacks and being greatly diminished by the time the legionaries have to engage in close quarters combat.
@@BoopSnoot dude. Here's a little info for you. Pikeman did have shields. Small round shields but shields at the and. Starpped from their shoulders. And another important thing is the ranks. In a real phalanx first 5-6 ranks would lower their sarissas while the other ranks behind would hold them in an angle to shelter enemy projectiles. Not full protection but protection at the and. I mean it was not as easy as you think to beat a pike phalanx. And it's flanks would be well protected with decent infantry. Especially with hypaspists in Alexander era. And with a decent cavalry support as well.
That might be true of amateurs who don't know how to play the game, but with veteran players imitating the generals of antiquity it matters little whether their opponent has a solid line of pikes. Pikes are too hard to maneuver. You can just refuse an engagement and keep skirmishing, offering battle only when the pikemen are out of formation and vulnerable to being flanked. Battles are complicated and things would not happen in as simple a way as I go on to describe - there are way more ways in which pikemen could lose their battle order - but the following account serves to illustrate what usually happens: The skirmish could end up with a big cavalry engagement being fought, and if the state using pikemen loses then the battle is over. They harass the enemy skirmishes and use their own to decimate the enemy pikemen. What follows is a box on the enemy part which might make the battle a more bloody one, but it will result in a loss for the person using pikemen allthesame.
You're damn right. I've taken ridiculous casualties when I've somehow allowed my pike wall to lose cohesion, once the enemy break through the ranks, chaos ensues. Granted, I play with DeI which is awesome for a bit of added realism, but I wager the same still applies in vanilla.
RagingBlast2Fan unless your opponent knows your creating a pike wall, and as long as you pick some archers and slingers (or even artillery) the skirmish fight won't work so well, especially since the pikes aren't that vulnerable when you disable the phalanx (you obviously have to check if the enemy is far away. Rome 2 pikes, properly camped especially in the corner, just break the game.
@@brovahkiin4302 slingers are better used against other missile troops/units, javelins have better chances probably at hurting heavy inf. As for archers is just for better range plus their heavy arrows. Played too much Medieval 2 nowadays, but trying to get back on Rome 2.
That means you need to weaken them otherwise with missiles. Or since a deep legionaries formation will not do much against a line of pikes, you can use one two-ranks deep legionaries formation to hold up 2 pike formations so the rest can manoeuvre
Basically unless you have some sort of missile engagement beforehand pikes always win. It is true though, phalanxes have always been incredible walls, their only drawbacks were movement and in real historical accounts due to their slow movement and maneuverability they would be decimated by archers and of course Javelins. I do remember a historical account by Alexander the Great where he said that due to the spears that were being held in the air the men in the back would not be hit by arrows due to them block the projectiles, not so pretty for the men in front though which were actually holding off the enemy, but hey he is the man that never lost a battle.
In a frontal battle you have to either missile them to death. Or you have to bind them with a frontal attack while the cavalry/quick units ge arond. In the binding case, loose formation will still reduce your casualties. Basically they will not "try too hard" to get into melee by charging into the frontal spears. Really the goal here is to disrupt their formation any way you can: Siege weaponry. Ranged Weapons. Loose Formation Flanking, Cavalry flanking. Once you manage to pull that off Pikemen are not good fighters. Too many resources are bound up in that frontal awesomeness. They are desperately trying to keep the enemy out of melee for just that reason.
Very old thread, but from my experience it is really really good to place three units that are 3ranks deep each in the same place with 1st rank overlapping second rank of the next unit, this means that if enemy unit would somehow break through the soldier from the unit that is behind "First pike unit" will take over killing those who managed to squezze through. Third unit of pikes (that will be the last) should be placed so their pike heads are just barely in front of the first line. The last pike unit will defend first one and second one from hand to hand combat. With only 6 units of 120units each I managed to get ~2340kills whike loosing only ~ 180 soldiers. Your line should look like this: ********************************* *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# +#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+# ++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++ * - Soldier of first unit # - Soldier of second unit + - Soldier of third unit
I can't defeat phalanx in custom battle with Rome I mean I do what video says but with or without loose formation my Pretorian guards can't get Macedonian phalanx and also I shoot them with javelins nothing happens to phalanx(logically javelin throws has to destroy them ) but I think Rome 2 has problems with gameplay how to defeat phalanx
@@monthasir_afnan6367 Against pikes? Regular archers do the trick just as well, since they're still faster than pikemen. Also they'd carry more ammo and a bigger punch on average. Javelin throwers would be the most devastating, as the pikes can't charge them without breaking their crucial formation.
Pikes are a bit of a weird unit... In Rome 2, you can easily mass-produce heroic victories with them, at least in custom battles. I did this a few times just to try it out; only three really good pike units (so you can form a triangle with them, with pikes pointing out to all sides) against a full army of just shock cavalry. Heroic victory, always. Now I know, of course, pikes are strongest against horses, makes sense, but for it to be that extreme even when they are outnumbered 3:20 or something like that... Pretty sick. Oh and also, if you use chariots instead; those can sometimes break through the pikes, even though it's still kind of just horses charging straight into the points of the pikes, which is kind of weird if you think about it.
Very cool video. I play off and on and was always afraid to try loose formation. My thinking was “that’s meant for missile def. so I never bothered testing this thanks for the tip
It still doesn't address how to beat pikemen frontally. All this video showed was that you can 1) beat pikes spread 2 ranks deep effectively (no kidding), and 2) that flanking pikemen is effective (no kidding). A good general commanding pikemen will ensure that the flanks are secured with good bracing units (hoplites or spearmen in square formation) and a mobile set of cavalry to take advantage of when the enemy attempts to hit the flanks. The fact remains that quality pikemen spread 3+ ranks deep simply cannot be beaten by any unit in the game, regardless of formation, if the opposing unit cannot flank the pikes. I spread my pikes 4 ranks deep and cover their flanks, and I have never seen my pikes beaten frontally by anything. Also, if you can bottleneck enemy units into a small gap to come through, pikes simply will not lose. On several occasions, I have had single units of pikemen (120 man size) kill over 600 men by themselves without issue, which is roughly 3 times better than any Roman Praetorian unit was able to do.
@maciejl20 agreed, especially if some ppl already have experiences they could've shared how to defeat pikes frontal or any other way then best way is javelins since it's the reason their on the front lines before the main force. I always had a couple javelins or archers to keep the enemy pikes to be pushed back since depending if the enemy has high quality pikes. He wouldn't wanna lose them so he'd had to switch the pikes position with his hoplites or swordsmen. I had enough experiences with the pikes in Rome 2.
Well actually he did. Missile units, or art first. Or to atleast bait ur opponent to slip up after you take out their missle units. In online half of my army is litterly half missle when going against factions that have pikes. So that is the only way to beat them head on lined next to each other.
The thing is, it was quite informative as I am just starting my first total war game and I didn’t know that the loose formation can beat a pikemen unit 2 ranks deep. It may be basic knowledge for you but unfortunately not for me
nice experiment, although pikes aren't meant for single unit combat, and flanking them in any regard will almost surely decimate them. any commander that lets his pikes get flanked aren't using them properly.
I've been playing this game for a week after 4 years and finally getting around to it. It was falling down a wiki rabbit hole on the history of Army formations and reading about the Roman staggered Maniples/Cohorts that finally got me into this. Historical tactics actually work in this game Haha. Loose formation though is definately something I want to try.
They work for one or two unit types which are well historically attested.. and for nothing else. You can't win the battle of Cannae in R2TW using what we believe were its real tactics, for example.
I love using pike men in assault of defences of smaller settlements. I love blocking of exits with pikes and keeping them in gaurd mode and just watching seas of enemies run at them. I keep middle units in the middle to hit their own middle units and a some fresh sword/spearman to back up or rotate once fatigue has set in. I also hide some cav to shock hit or mop up any anyone flanking units or missle units. Favourite thing is to watch pikes stay fresh in gaurd mode then slowly advance forward
Horses on the flanks. Archers behind to hit the loose units as they approach the pike wall. Add a few good melee units in reserve just in case one wall falters.
In line formation, holes begin to appear between phalanxes as casualties from missiles and fighting accumulate, allowing for this exploit in frontal assault. I once had an elite unit of Celtic cavalry smash into my pike line, at the fracture between two pike units, dividing them and followed up I to the breach with infantry, which widened the gap and threatened breakthrough. But since I screen my line with medium skirmishers, and they pull back during assault, I had reserves in the second line to plug the gaps. The AI was very creative in that battle and almost beat me.
I love my pikeman, I frequently use them in a bow formation, with two light-medium infantry units on each side, then encircle the enemy with said infantry if they're not engaged
I would have liked a test against an unbroken line of several pike units, I very much doubt spread formation is as effective in that case. Still very interesting, thank you for putting the time and effort into these tests :).
U wont outflank anything in a battle like that, because pikeman dont stand alone. There will be always a couple of foot companians standing next to each other with no space between them.
1-2 unitsof pikeman with hoplites on the flanks. Open up the space between the pikeman and hoplites and tempt the enemy go to the sides of the pikeman and crush them with the hoplites as they circle closes.
In chess the pawns kill when attacking at an angle. This video is cool and I loved seeing how different formations affect the battle... but never attack pikes head on. Space your cohorts apart, keep them dense, and charge the pike at an angle. Pikemen can't respond fast enough when you shift you line rapidly. P P P / / / L L L
Micro manage until the long pike line stags(they move like turtles) and stick into the gaps is the only frontal way. However, it is technically still flanking as you must attack the pikes from the sides.
Traditionally the Greek city armies would have their hoplites and other pike wielding men would hold their pikes raised in the air at an angle or vertical to block incoming arrows.
Thanks, but usually pikes are used in narrow valley or usually with other units to make it difficult to flank, U should make a video against pike with army.
Thanks for the advice. By the way, I also always place a phalanx of pikemen with gaps 2 squads wide. By the way, I don’t understand why you grabbed the lone phalanx units from the sides, if you could just attack in the back, and there would be even fewer losses. What a genius the author is, low bow. I will ask the enemy not to line up in a wall, but to line up in checkers.
The best is 4 ranks deep. The entity mass helps to brase against charges. Also, the answer, is archers.... Or even slingers, because they're basically light infantry, a few are medium infantry depending on faction/unit.
So in summary, use loose formation to flank enemy pikes. And if you're the one using them, make sure your flanks are secure with more pikes or some other unit.
This very informative, but most pike engagements will be 3 or four units protecting each others flanks with only the flanks on either ends being exposed.
Well since Greek hoplites and Pikemen Are carry a Little Round shield. I say Any trying any type of missile Slingers, Archers, Javelin men. Or Peltasts to weaken the Pikemen then flank’em with since the Pikemen have very limited speed and can be out maneuvered by any cavalry units
Yeah. So we assume that you play against an idiot. He brings only pikes. No hoplite or shield bearers to protect the flank and no cav no missile. Just pikeman. By the way, hoplites did not had small shields. They had huge shields called hoplon. Pikes carried small strapped shield called pelta because they had to hold the sarissa with two hands. I wonder it why persians were not as "clever" as you guys. How would those idiots lose against "pikes". All they had to do was fire some arrows and flank them. That easy right?
You forgot the "run through the front line" trick :P . Just when your unit engages and looks stuck fighting the pikes, you order them to run behind the pikemen. You will lose 20% of the unit with that move, but then massacre them from inside.
it also helps when you out vet the pikes and out equip them with attack and defencive bonouses cause that will tear them up faster regardless of what formation they use.
Vincent Celeste even with superior attack,how they will kill the pike unit if they can't reach them because of the pikes ? (Sarissas).can't beat them frontally
Simple: Either outflank the pikes and attack from behind, or kill them with archers/skirmishers/artillery. Which is why it's important in battle to keep your archers safe and not waste their ammo. Archers can play a key role if used correctly.
Remember the first time I went up against pikes, had no issues until I went east into Greece as the Romans, didn't know pikes were so strong so 4 units almost killed my entire army (his other troops did very little) was very confused how it happened for a while
The issue with Rome 2’s depiction of pikes is that it attempts to adopt a rock paper scissors approach with unit counters. Pikes basically beat, or seriously degrade, anything charging frontally, but are in turn vulnerable to rear charges and missile fire and get messed up when caught out of formation. The historical reality was that pike units were in fact much more flexible - meaning they could be used as a massed wall of spears but also as more flexible infantry. The other reality is that they were not the insta-death, mass-killing machines as depicted in game. They were excellent at pinning enemy forces to enable supporting units (cav or other infantry) to flank or exploit weakness in the enemy line. Vanilla, IMO, does a poor job at showcasing this nuance. DEI mod, by comparison, does a decent job of depicting pike units - their killing speed is slowed to a crawl, but they can hold out nearly indefinitely from frontal attacks. Combined arms tactics have much more relevance in this mod.
I play Rome total war one on iOS, I usually use phalanx to engage them and have archers to weaken them, then send chariots to disrupt their formation from the flank, I just started playing three days ago so I’m still learning new strats
I always use Missile Cavalry as Auxiliary Cavalry or Missile Units such as Roman Archers to deal with those Pikemen Formation , that will be better if I have Onagers or Heavy Onagers this siege weapon to deal with them .
I can't believe I wasted 10 mins of my life thinking someone found a way to out flank pike men, after I've already spent hundreds of hours of playing Rome 2. Thanks...
ten minutes of 'a situation that will never exist'. Pikes are a frontline, center unit that has their flanks covered entirely for this specific reason. The best way to handle them is to not handle them directly in the front. Get Velites, archers, slingers, anything that can ping them from range. Break them that way. Pikemen are those units that are super easy to deal with in the start but if ignored become SUPER DANGEROUS in the end.
i remember in rome totoal war you could have had only few greek militia units and defend city against pretty much every army (with no range units) just put picks in the gap in the wall and literally no one could enter :P it was so broken
I know this was a demonstration of 1 on 1 tactics but I would never let my pike units stand apart. Pack them tight in a large phalanx and overlap the ranks. Keep flank units facing out to prevent flanking or envelopment. Also depending on size of army/number of units, keep a reserve to reinforce the line if any unit wavers or is taking heavy losses. Ideally, some cavalry to break up opposing archers if possible. 1 on 1 a legionary unit can out manoeuvre a pike unit sure but it shouldn't play out like that. Now my tactic against pikes is to engage them from the front with low value infantry and flank wide with better infantry units or cavalry in an attempt to hit them from the side or from behind if possible. Pike units will break very easily if hit from a flank or behind. True for most units but especially pikemen. Once the phalanx is broken, then units can be isolated and dealt with as shown in this demonstration. Best advice is to have a balanced army. A balanced force with melee and ranged units, infantry and cavalry. Also, smaller force with higher quality units. Quality over quantity every time. In urban battles, never man the walls with pikemen as they just get chopped to bits. They are far better blocking streets. Again, packed tight they can make a real nuisance of themselves. Thank you for the demo by the way. I have always been a move loose attack tight player. I shall definitely look into loose formation attacks :)
If you’re playing a pike based faction here’s a pro tip: keep at least a third of your pikemen in reserve to fill gaps in the line. This strategy allows you to quickly fill in areas with high attrition rates, and reaping to cavalry flanking maneuvers without changing your primary fighting line. Furthermore, if you do happen to lose all your cavalry or a significant portion of your opponents forces successfully surround you, having a third of you forces behind the main line allows you to form the “noob” pike box which will keep your first line alive until there is a break in the enemies lines and you can reallocate pikemen to reinforce others (this generally begins a chain reaction of breaking already engaged enemy units and freeing up more and more of your pikemen to attack elsewhere).
When I get attacked and I am the defender, i just create a square (or pentagon/hexagon, depending on troop availability) of pike phalanx and have inside that square another square of hoplite phalanx. I've had situations where i lost only 200 men vs killing 3000+ The most powerful combo of pikeman in RT2, is that you gotta combine them with (spartan) hoplites and soms cavalary. The cavs are really important for chasing away those pesky archers/slingers.
Every seasoned vet knows, pokes are ineffective. Unless you have them blocking narrow passageways. For example a siege. And you have the main road blocked by pikemen.
The only proper way to fight pikes is unzip one end with either contact or skirmish, and push units through to the other side. Now the problem with pikes is when engaged trying to reform the phalanx will kill a ton of your unit. So really getting past that initial push and forcing your guys farther into the formation is the best counter. You can win head on versus a pike wall just concentrate on that first unzip and then if they move to fill in they just make gaps to exploit. Notice how long it takes for either a phalanx to reform or them to move in that tight formation? Super slow. So Skirmish and follow up for the push or unzip and exploit. Flanking is the obvious choice but nobody just leaves the flank open from the start; unless you have an unholy amount of cavalry.
What I did was spamming movement orders behind the pikes thereby breaking their formation and thereby making them vulnerable. Beware though as this most certainly gives you incredibly high casualties.
What I learned:
1. No you cant.
Thanks for saving me time.
well you can if your infantry are a little better, the pikes arent supported, if you use Rome (the most OP faction), you hit them with javelins first, and the pikes break up so you can flank them. If you do all of that then you can sort of beat them from the front. It also helps if the pikes just sit there while you pelt them with pilum and position yourself.
As it should be.
@@arthas640 it is not the most op
@@arthas640 ahem. kush.
Noobs be like: "Oh, my Infantry can't defeat the pikemen. A cavalry push should penetrate the line."
RedTheRed owo you are missing out man
@@redthered3242 not necesary play a game to know XD
Its funny to think how vastly different classical era combat is from all others.
@@redthered3242 From the front yeah, slamming pikes from the rear with cavalry while you engage in the front and they're fucked.
@Janglenutter to be honest if u hit any unit from the back with cavalry it will wreak havoc. XD. PS. I dont play this game but know a decent amount of classical/medieval combat.
This video should be called "how to lose half of your legionnaires doing something skirmishers could do with 0 casualties"
Lol yep
still useful for rome players, i seriously learned something here
When u have 3 velites youd be lucky to wipe a unit
Tbf as Rome you will have to use melee infantry and cavalry to beat pikemen because your ranged infantry is dogshit
If you really want to beat pikemen double up infantry, loose one formation after first gets contact. Unzip the formation by forcing the loose guys through. You have to actively micro a push, expend some dudes but begin the actual attack. You can't bet on loose pike formations. Unzip them manually if necessary. But generally skirmish and rear cavalry attacks are best
full frontal cavalry charge...duh
@Darth Panda Except soviets used "metal" horses.
FireKill GuyBreak Human horses.
Winged hussar say challange accepted.
@maciejl20 not true
Infortunaly, in that game, the arms of soldiers and their weapon don't break during battle, so that strategy, will give you a lot of bresaola if you want... But not victory... Bresaola is horse meat
But... Legionary cohort is kinda end-game unit, while pikeman is tier 1 ~ 2 unit. They should be fighting against Foot Companion, not just common pikeman squad.
+Il-Young Jung I think this is more intended for muliplayer/custom battle as it's a lot easier to outsmart AI Pikemen tactics and try and flank them
+Il-Young Jung I just massacred a near full unit (100+ men) of egyptian thorax pikemen (tired, high morale, very heavy pike) with a half strength (exhausted, low morale, 68 men) town militia principes (very heavy sword). This tactic works!
They came in 4 ranks deep. I spread out to two ranks deep, loose formation, with formation attack off. Then I prayed. :D
+Carl Christian Lindalen pikemen and "high morale" dont fit in a sentance
Hey, you were in luck. I just tried something similar in EB: Rorarii, Akontistai and Greek Levy Hoplites, supported by Equites Consulares, all half strength or lower, against a full unit of Syracusian Hoplites. I won by the narrowest of margins.
hoplites are not pikeman
In ancient times, Pikes were often used without gaps between groups of pikemen. The flanks of the Pikes were protected by more flexible troop types, e.g. hoplites, hypaspists, thorax swordsmen, etc.. This is how I try to use them in Total War games.
unfortunately ur opponent doesnt have to fight ur pike in game they cant just ignore them and charge ur flank xd
@@denial54your pikes can turn
@@Anti_Septikum pike turns slowly moves slowly so a turned pike is gotta arrive at the flank late and expose its back for easy missile target and die to charges easily. basically no pike is best not to turn.
@@Anti_Septikum and even if you do turn pike moce so slowly it cant catch anything, you are never gotta catch a unit thats not already engaged. you sound like someone who doesnt play multiplayer land often bro.
@@denial54 harass the ranged units with cavalry and deselect the phalanx ability and select it again when they get close
"...while the Legionary cohort has lost a lot of pikemen" :D
I have never thought of these mechanics before! Excellent! Really excellent!
Cool!
Remote Detonation
It seems to be an really effective way of defeating spike units but one important point is missing. What do you wanna do if there is a close formation between spike units and you can not get them from the side? Specially in towns by small ways and streets.
But the main idea is great, thanks for that =)
It ignores the most important mechanic in real life though. Roman legionaries were actually almost immune from archery attack. They could advance with large rounded shields that the arrows would mostly bounce off of, and had in later years excellent body armor and helmets as well, that were for all intents and purposes arrow proof. Phalanx however were effective when densely packed and the long spears were two handed weapons meaning they did not carry shields. Yes, this left them vulnerable to flanking, especially from cavalry, but even more so to archery volleys. The Romans engaging the greeks would hit the phalanx with skirmishers, ballista, and archers that could hide behind the heavily armored and shielded legionaries. This forces the phalanx, which cannot move quickly with the large heavy spears and dense unit formations to try to engage as quickly as possible head on, otherwise the missile attacks, of which the legionaries themselves carried two pillum to launch attacks, opening themselves to flanking attacks and being greatly diminished by the time the legionaries have to engage in close quarters combat.
@@BoopSnoot dude. Here's a little info for you. Pikeman did have shields. Small round shields but shields at the and. Starpped from their shoulders. And another important thing is the ranks. In a real phalanx first 5-6 ranks would lower their sarissas while the other ranks behind would hold them in an angle to shelter enemy projectiles. Not full protection but protection at the and. I mean it was not as easy as you think to beat a pike phalanx. And it's flanks would be well protected with decent infantry. Especially with hypaspists in Alexander era. And with a decent cavalry support as well.
It's not going to work against a thick solid line, protected on the flanks. Missile units beat pikes that you can't flank.
(like you briefly mentioned)
That might be true of amateurs who don't know how to play the game, but with veteran players imitating the generals of antiquity it matters little whether their opponent has a solid line of pikes. Pikes are too hard to maneuver. You can just refuse an engagement and keep skirmishing, offering battle only when the pikemen are out of formation and vulnerable to being flanked. Battles are complicated and things would not happen in as simple a way as I go on to describe - there are way more ways in which pikemen could lose their battle order - but the following account serves to illustrate what usually happens:
The skirmish could end up with a big cavalry engagement being fought, and if the state using pikemen loses then the battle is over. They harass the enemy skirmishes and use their own to decimate the enemy pikemen. What follows is a box on the enemy part which might make the battle a more bloody one, but it will result in a loss for the person using pikemen allthesame.
You're damn right. I've taken ridiculous casualties when I've somehow allowed my pike wall to lose cohesion, once the enemy break through the ranks, chaos ensues. Granted, I play with DeI which is awesome for a bit of added realism, but I wager the same still applies in vanilla.
RagingBlast2Fan unless your opponent knows your creating a pike wall, and as long as you pick some archers and slingers (or even artillery) the skirmish fight won't work so well, especially since the pikes aren't that vulnerable when you disable the phalanx (you obviously have to check if the enemy is far away.
Rome 2 pikes, properly camped especially in the corner, just break the game.
@@brovahkiin4302 slingers are better used against other missile troops/units, javelins have better chances probably at hurting heavy inf. As for archers is just for better range plus their heavy arrows. Played too much Medieval 2 nowadays, but trying to get back on Rome 2.
This shows a 1v1 scenario, how well do they manage when fighting against a line of pikes where they can't flank?
Didnt he just show that here?
That means you need to weaken them otherwise with missiles. Or since a deep legionaries formation will not do much against a line of pikes, you can use one two-ranks deep legionaries formation to hold up 2 pike formations so the rest can manoeuvre
Basically unless you have some sort of missile engagement beforehand pikes always win.
It is true though, phalanxes have always been incredible walls, their only drawbacks were movement and in real historical accounts due to their slow movement and maneuverability they would be decimated by archers and of course Javelins.
I do remember a historical account by Alexander the Great where he said that due to the spears that were being held in the air the men in the back would not be hit by arrows due to them block the projectiles, not so pretty for the men in front though which were actually holding off the enemy, but hey he is the man that never lost a battle.
In a frontal battle you have to either missile them to death. Or you have to bind them with a frontal attack while the cavalry/quick units ge arond.
In the binding case, loose formation will still reduce your casualties. Basically they will not "try too hard" to get into melee by charging into the frontal spears.
Really the goal here is to disrupt their formation any way you can: Siege weaponry. Ranged Weapons. Loose Formation Flanking, Cavalry flanking. Once you manage to pull that off Pikemen are not good fighters. Too many resources are bound up in that frontal awesomeness. They are desperately trying to keep the enemy out of melee for just that reason.
David Awesome agree
Drinking game:
Drink everytime he says “ranks deep”
CZcams recommends me this every year
This just won me an epic town defense! Thank you Max! :D
Very old thread, but from my experience it is really really good to place three units that are 3ranks deep each in the same place with 1st rank overlapping second rank of the next unit, this means that if enemy unit would somehow break through the soldier from the unit that is behind "First pike unit" will take over killing those who managed to squezze through. Third unit of pikes (that will be the last) should be placed so their pike heads are just barely in front of the first line. The last pike unit will defend first one and second one from hand to hand combat. With only 6 units of 120units each I managed to get ~2340kills whike loosing only ~ 180 soldiers.
Your line should look like this:
*********************************
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#
+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#
++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++
* - Soldier of first unit
# - Soldier of second unit
+ - Soldier of third unit
I can't defeat phalanx in custom battle with Rome
I mean I do what video says but with or without loose formation my Pretorian guards can't get Macedonian phalanx and also I shoot them with javelins nothing happens to phalanx(logically javelin throws has to destroy them ) but I think Rome 2 has problems with gameplay how to defeat phalanx
you made a 10min long video just to say flank them?
Brett Rose did you watch the video moron?
lmaoooooooo im dying
What about horse archers?
I am kind'a new to the game
@@monthasir_afnan6367 Against pikes? Regular archers do the trick just as well, since they're still faster than pikemen. Also they'd carry more ammo and a bigger punch on average. Javelin throwers would be the most devastating, as the pikes can't charge them without breaking their crucial formation.
Miss ya big man. Strength and honor.
"the legionary cohort has lost a lot of pikemen"(Meridius Dec. 22, 2014) 6:11
mate, you're a legend!
strength and honour!
Breath of fresh air! Very methodical! Ingenius tactic!
Pikes are a bit of a weird unit... In Rome 2, you can easily mass-produce heroic victories with them, at least in custom battles. I did this a few times just to try it out; only three really good pike units (so you can form a triangle with them, with pikes pointing out to all sides) against a full army of just shock cavalry. Heroic victory, always. Now I know, of course, pikes are strongest against horses, makes sense, but for it to be that extreme even when they are outnumbered 3:20 or something like that... Pretty sick.
Oh and also, if you use chariots instead; those can sometimes break through the pikes, even though it's still kind of just horses charging straight into the points of the pikes, which is kind of weird if you think about it.
Very cool video. I play off and on and was always afraid to try loose formation. My thinking was “that’s meant for missile def. so I never bothered testing this thanks for the tip
It still doesn't address how to beat pikemen frontally. All this video showed was that you can 1) beat pikes spread 2 ranks deep effectively (no kidding), and 2) that flanking pikemen is effective (no kidding).
A good general commanding pikemen will ensure that the flanks are secured with good bracing units (hoplites or spearmen in square formation) and a mobile set of cavalry to take advantage of when the enemy attempts to hit the flanks. The fact remains that quality pikemen spread 3+ ranks deep simply cannot be beaten by any unit in the game, regardless of formation, if the opposing unit cannot flank the pikes.
I spread my pikes 4 ranks deep and cover their flanks, and I have never seen my pikes beaten frontally by anything. Also, if you can bottleneck enemy units into a small gap to come through, pikes simply will not lose. On several occasions, I have had single units of pikemen (120 man size) kill over 600 men by themselves without issue, which is roughly 3 times better than any Roman Praetorian unit was able to do.
Well thats kinda to be expected. You shpuldnt be able to beat a front line specialist from the front
@maciejl20 agreed, especially if some ppl already have experiences they could've shared how to defeat pikes frontal or any other way then best way is javelins since it's the reason their on the front lines before the main force. I always had a couple javelins or archers to keep the enemy pikes to be pushed back since depending if the enemy has high quality pikes. He wouldn't wanna lose them so he'd had to switch the pikes position with his hoplites or swordsmen.
I had enough experiences with the pikes in Rome 2.
I don't know about you guys but my pikes got rekt by redguard cataphracts
Well actually he did. Missile units, or art first. Or to atleast bait ur opponent to slip up after you take out their missle units. In online half of my army is litterly half missle when going against factions that have pikes. So that is the only way to beat them head on lined next to each other.
The thing is, it was quite informative as I am just starting my first total war game and I didn’t know that the loose formation can beat a pikemen unit 2 ranks deep. It may be basic knowledge for you but unfortunately not for me
I play a lot of pikes and my nemesis is the javelin. A lot of javelins can take out enough men to thin my formation enough for them to be overwhelmed.
nice experiment, although pikes aren't meant for single unit combat, and flanking them in any regard will almost surely decimate them. any commander that lets his pikes get flanked aren't using them properly.
I've been playing this game for a week after 4 years and finally getting around to it.
It was falling down a wiki rabbit hole on the history of Army formations and reading about the Roman staggered Maniples/Cohorts that finally got me into this.
Historical tactics actually work in this game Haha. Loose formation though is definately something I want to try.
They work for one or two unit types which are well historically attested.. and for nothing else. You can't win the battle of Cannae in R2TW using what we believe were its real tactics, for example.
I love using pike men in assault of defences of smaller settlements. I love blocking of exits with pikes and keeping them in gaurd mode and just watching seas of enemies run at them. I keep middle units in the middle to hit their own middle units and a some fresh sword/spearman to back up or rotate once fatigue has set in.
I also hide some cav to shock hit or mop up any anyone flanking units or missle units.
Favourite thing is to watch pikes stay fresh in gaurd mode then slowly advance forward
Horses on the flanks.
Archers behind to hit the loose units as they approach the pike wall.
Add a few good melee units in reserve just in case one wall falters.
Pikes at the centre, spears, swords and cavalry at the flanks and missile units at the rear.
In line formation, holes begin to appear between phalanxes as casualties from missiles and fighting accumulate, allowing for this exploit in frontal assault. I once had an elite unit of Celtic cavalry smash into my pike line, at the fracture between two pike units, dividing them and followed up I to the breach with infantry, which widened the gap and threatened breakthrough. But since I screen my line with medium skirmishers, and they pull back during assault, I had reserves in the second line to plug the gaps. The AI was very creative in that battle and almost beat me.
I love my pikeman, I frequently use them in a bow formation, with two light-medium infantry units on each side, then encircle the enemy with said infantry if they're not engaged
I would have liked a test against an unbroken line of several pike units, I very much doubt spread formation is as effective in that case. Still very interesting, thank you for putting the time and effort into these tests :).
U wont outflank anything in a battle like that, because pikeman dont stand alone. There will be always a couple of foot companians standing next to each other with no space between them.
1-2 unitsof pikeman with hoplites on the flanks. Open up the space between the pikeman and hoplites and tempt the enemy go to the sides of the pikeman and crush them with the hoplites as they circle closes.
In chess the pawns kill when attacking at an angle. This video is cool and I loved seeing how different formations affect the battle... but never attack pikes head on. Space your cohorts apart, keep them dense, and charge the pike at an angle. Pikemen can't respond fast enough when you shift you line rapidly.
P P P
/ / /
L L L
This is easy to say, but harder to implement, because the AI will realign their pikes to face the attacking unit.
Awesome Guide !!!
Micro manage until the long pike line stags(they move like turtles) and stick into the gaps is the only frontal way. However, it is technically still flanking as you must attack the pikes from the sides.
Personally I like four ranks deep so I can still have three pikes in front with my entire front line in close combat
This is precisely why the phalanx is still an important part of any army with a lot of pikes.
Would also be interesting to see pikes used offensively, like the Swiss pike formations, against Roman legions.
Thanks bro It really helped me out
so many good soldiers had to die for this presentation...
I think that the pikes needs hoplites around, the pikes in meadle and hoplites at the left'n right
Traditionally the Greek city armies would have their hoplites and other pike wielding men would hold their pikes raised in the air at an angle or vertical to block incoming arrows.
Thanks, but usually pikes are used in narrow valley or usually with other units to make it difficult to flank, U should make a video against pike with army.
Thanks for the advice. By the way, I also always place a phalanx of pikemen with gaps 2 squads wide. By the way, I don’t understand why you grabbed the lone phalanx units from the sides, if you could just attack in the back, and there would be even fewer losses. What a genius the author is, low bow. I will ask the enemy not to line up in a wall, but to line up in checkers.
The best is 4 ranks deep. The entity mass helps to brase against charges.
Also, the answer, is archers.... Or even slingers, because they're basically light infantry, a few are medium infantry depending on faction/unit.
Balearic slingers are a weapon of mass destruction in R2TW and probably OP
So in summary, use loose formation to flank enemy pikes. And if you're the one using them, make sure your flanks are secure with more pikes or some other unit.
This very informative, but most pike engagements will be 3 or four units protecting each others flanks with only the flanks on either ends being exposed.
Actually a very good video at explaining why the Romans did not fight in the quincunx formation. Too easy to get surrounded.
Well since Greek hoplites and Pikemen
Are carry a Little Round shield. I say
Any trying any type of missile
Slingers, Archers, Javelin men. Or Peltasts to weaken the Pikemen then flank’em with since the Pikemen have very limited speed and can be out maneuvered by any cavalry units
Yeah. So we assume that you play against an idiot. He brings only pikes. No hoplite or shield bearers to protect the flank and no cav no missile. Just pikeman. By the way, hoplites did not had small shields. They had huge shields called hoplon. Pikes carried small strapped shield called pelta because they had to hold the sarissa with two hands. I wonder it why persians were not as "clever" as you guys. How would those idiots lose against "pikes". All they had to do was fire some arrows and flank them. That easy right?
Batu Woah there. I don’t know as much as you do. No need to be such a snowflake
@@batu3689 the pikes were first used over a century after the persian wars
for those saying you cant beat pikes head on, fight pikes with.... *PIKES*
not all factions have pikes and not all players use pikes
The pike still wins
You forgot the "run through the front line" trick :P . Just when your unit engages and looks stuck fighting the pikes, you order them to run behind the pikemen. You will lose 20% of the unit with that move, but then massacre them from inside.
it also helps when you out vet the pikes and out equip them with attack and defencive bonouses cause that will tear them up faster regardless of what formation they use.
Vincent Celeste even with superior attack,how they will kill the pike unit if they can't reach them because of the pikes ? (Sarissas).can't beat them frontally
very nice, very informative.
Simple: Either outflank the pikes and attack from behind, or kill them with archers/skirmishers/artillery. Which is why it's important in battle to keep your archers safe and not waste their ammo. Archers can play a key role if used correctly.
I usually uses missiles till it dry, after that, the Phalanx usually retreated back with severe casualties
I love charging phalanx bottom side..
It sounds wrong but it feels right...
They would be stacked for that very reason ... And side by side with supporting units.
Forget pikes. Those damned Parthian horse archers are the bane of my existence
Remember the first time I went up against pikes, had no issues until I went east into Greece as the Romans, didn't know pikes were so strong so 4 units almost killed my entire army (his other troops did very little) was very confused how it happened for a while
That's why you want to make a line with your pikemen army and protect the flanks
JonatasAdoM that way you will make the enemy ignore the pikes (center of your army ) and focus intarelly on flanks
German Berserkers are basically a group of Hercules, they can handle several group of pikes like nothing while people started flying away
I did not know that before. Thanks
The issue with Rome 2’s depiction of pikes is that it attempts to adopt a rock paper scissors approach with unit counters. Pikes basically beat, or seriously degrade, anything charging frontally, but are in turn vulnerable to rear charges and missile fire and get messed up when caught out of formation.
The historical reality was that pike units were in fact much more flexible - meaning they could be used as a massed wall of spears but also as more flexible infantry. The other reality is that they were not the insta-death, mass-killing machines as depicted in game. They were excellent at pinning enemy forces to enable supporting units (cav or other infantry) to flank or exploit weakness in the enemy line.
Vanilla, IMO, does a poor job at showcasing this nuance. DEI mod, by comparison, does a decent job of depicting pike units - their killing speed is slowed to a crawl, but they can hold out nearly indefinitely from frontal attacks. Combined arms tactics have much more relevance in this mod.
pikes in city streets are without missiles impossible to take down. Best defense for the buck.
40 v 40. A phalanx of 20-30 units with flank and rear sealed by pikemen while the rest is cavalry / missile troops. That's the hardest force to crack.
+LKVideos so basically, a noob box?
J Gates yes, the ultimate one. Better yet, place it at the edge of the map while still having the rear covered. Just to be save ^^
Slingers and archer cav will wreck this noob box
The pike formation us to wide would never be that wide .
I play Rome total war one on iOS, I usually use phalanx to engage them and have archers to weaken them, then send chariots to disrupt their formation from the flank, I just started playing three days ago so I’m still learning new strats
The colors look great on the units! Are you using the standard color/gamma settings?
I always use Missile Cavalry as Auxiliary Cavalry or Missile Units such as Roman Archers to deal with those Pikemen Formation , that will be better if I have Onagers or Heavy Onagers this siege weapon to deal with them .
I can't believe I wasted 10 mins of my life thinking someone found a way to out flank pike men, after I've already spent hundreds of hours of playing Rome 2. Thanks...
ten minutes of 'a situation that will never exist'.
Pikes are a frontline, center unit that has their flanks covered entirely for this specific reason. The best way to handle them is to not handle them directly in the front. Get Velites, archers, slingers, anything that can ping them from range. Break them that way.
Pikemen are those units that are super easy to deal with in the start but if ignored become SUPER DANGEROUS in the end.
Pikes also break stationary formations on contact in my experience.
What are flaming pigs and dogs for then?
never try to beat pikes from the front even the real life roman didn't do that
You can just put pike units one next to the other (linked} so they cannot be outflanked.
This video just shows Roman elite units against cheap pike units and 1v1 not a army vs army
i remember in rome totoal war you could have had only few greek militia units and defend city against pretty much every army (with no range units) just put picks in the gap in the wall and literally no one could enter :P it was so broken
I know this was a demonstration of 1 on 1 tactics but I would never let my pike units stand apart.
Pack them tight in a large phalanx and overlap the ranks. Keep flank units facing out to prevent flanking or envelopment. Also depending on size of army/number of units, keep a reserve to reinforce the line if any unit wavers or is taking heavy losses.
Ideally, some cavalry to break up opposing archers if possible.
1 on 1 a legionary unit can out manoeuvre a pike unit sure but it shouldn't play out like that.
Now my tactic against pikes is to engage them from the front with low value infantry and flank wide with better infantry units or cavalry in an attempt to hit them from the side or from behind if possible. Pike units will break very easily if hit from a flank or behind. True for most units but especially pikemen. Once the phalanx is broken, then units can be isolated and dealt with as shown in this demonstration.
Best advice is to have a balanced army. A balanced force with melee and ranged units, infantry and cavalry. Also, smaller force with higher quality units. Quality over quantity every time.
In urban battles, never man the walls with pikemen as they just get chopped to bits. They are far better blocking streets. Again, packed tight they can make a real nuisance of themselves.
Thank you for the demo by the way. I have always been a move loose attack tight player. I shall definitely look into loose formation attacks :)
I agree with you
If you’re playing a pike based faction here’s a pro tip: keep at least a third of your pikemen in reserve to fill gaps in the line. This strategy allows you to quickly fill in areas with high attrition rates, and reaping to cavalry flanking maneuvers without changing your primary fighting line. Furthermore, if you do happen to lose all your cavalry or a significant portion of your opponents forces successfully surround you, having a third of you forces behind the main line allows you to form the “noob” pike box which will keep your first line alive until there is a break in the enemies lines and you can reallocate pikemen to reinforce others (this generally begins a chain reaction of breaking already engaged enemy units and freeing up more and more of your pikemen to attack elsewhere).
“Reacting”, not “reaping”.
Gay ass tactic
When I get attacked and I am the defender, i just create a square (or pentagon/hexagon, depending on troop availability) of pike phalanx and have inside that square another square of hoplite phalanx.
I've had situations where i lost only 200 men vs killing 3000+
The most powerful combo of pikeman in RT2, is that you gotta combine them with (spartan) hoplites and soms cavalary. The cavs are really important for chasing away those pesky archers/slingers.
So basically a noob box.
archers and slingers are the best killers of pikes
great vid
The only way to beat a wall of pikes from the front is with another wall of pikes. Preferably longer pikes, or just better trained pikemen.
Thats why the pikes should form a line not fight in seperated units
And need support from units that alexander used
deeper phalanxes are only good against missile units since the pikes deflect them.
Every seasoned vet knows, pokes are ineffective. Unless you have them blocking narrow passageways. For example a siege. And you have the main road blocked by pikemen.
thanks for this info :)
yes they have to be flanked if not then your going noware if you flank any unit you will get them
The thing is two units of pikemen can slaughter two units of Legionaries, they are group fighters and best if backed by other units.
The only proper way to fight pikes is unzip one end with either contact or skirmish, and push units through to the other side. Now the problem with pikes is when engaged trying to reform the phalanx will kill a ton of your unit. So really getting past that initial push and forcing your guys farther into the formation is the best counter. You can win head on versus a pike wall just concentrate on that first unzip and then if they move to fill in they just make gaps to exploit. Notice how long it takes for either a phalanx to reform or them to move in that tight formation? Super slow.
So Skirmish and follow up for the push or unzip and exploit.
Flanking is the obvious choice but nobody just leaves the flank open from the start; unless you have an unholy amount of cavalry.
1. throw first pillum
2. throw second pillum
3. throw last pillum
4. retreat
Genius!
The thing is that in a live game the enemy will move the pikes into a bette position so the flanking wouldn’t last long
Or so you think. Rotation takes time and remember - he has to micro many other units at once, so a flanking manoeuvre may well go unnoticed.
Unless it's AI in which case yes, it will reposition its units on time.. most of the time.
My personal tactic is trying to get my infantry behnid the pike unit or on their flanks, no matter how deep the lines are.
Thats a good tactic till you face northern pikes of the stark army 😢
U need to remember if u are using pikes there will be a wall of multple units so outflanking is not a big possibility.
You are nothing to the northern pikes lead by the king in tge north robb stark
What I did was spamming movement orders behind the pikes thereby breaking their formation and thereby making them vulnerable. Beware though as this most certainly gives you incredibly high casualties.
Bowmen and flanking the best way
I used this tactic in an online battle a couple of months ago and forgot to share. It worked so well the dude rage quit
and in campaign, just spam all gold, elite praetorian guard from a buffed-up province. those guys are imposibly stronk