I am so old that the first time I went to Stonehenge, you could walk right up to the stones, and see the 17th century graffiti--- people had carved their initials with serifs.
Hi guys, I love your show. I also think that (in broad strokes) the appreciation of established prehistory and the consideration of a very, very old culture on the planet pre-dating our known human culture are not mutually exclusive. I have an academic background in Environmental Studies, City Planning, and Theology. Facts established through the scientific method form the basis of further study in countless directions. While I stand on established conclusions of science, I also allow myself the opportunity to speculate and imagine what remains unknown. This is a fantastic episode. I’ve been researching the effects of climate change on Mediterranean cultures at the 4.2 Kiloyear. This episode provides meat on the bones of the cultures in the Middle Bronze Age. Thanks for your hard work.
Underwater excavations are so cool and so enticing! Its so intriguing how conservation teams create the perfect environment in their museaums to keep these artifacts safe from degridation
What dates are they? People were trading along the eastern Atlantic coast, ie Western Europe, up from the south to Britain, Ireland and Scotland during the bronze age but evidenced only by cargoes of 2 wrecks. Tin and copper were both mined in Cornwall and Wales respectively.
@@helenamcginty4920 The The Ozette Native American Village Archeological Site dates back to 2K years ago, but the sea going canoes probably go back much further. The canoes were used for trading and whaling. Evidence of inhabitancy ( burials sites) in this coastal region date to 10,000 years ago. It's not so much how old the canoes are, but how impressive, hewn from the massive trees of the coastal Pacific Northwest of North America. The climatic and coastal environment has not been conducive to their preservation.
@@808bigisland Unless it sinks bc everyone’s trying not to drown. Look, I totally think humans used canoes over ocean and maybe reached the Americas from Polynesia… I’m also saying it’s easy for a canoe to go under when it’s on open ocean
Apparently the Lurgan Canoe which was referenced around 13:30 seems to show similar levels of development as it also had internal ribs and small holes along the sides suggesting that they would have affixed an outrigger or other attachments. It doesn't seem like they found anything like those other pieces, though. In any case, whether it was actually used for travel on the seas is debated as some researchers think that gives its size it was for ceremonial purposes (Although this might just be them clinging to the old habit of declaring anything out of the ordinary to be for ritual purposes). Also, I just wanted to add that I enjoyed the episode!
the paper was Received: November 21, 2023; Accepted: February 14, 2024; Published: March 20, 2024; so it was the authors that seemed to take forever to have the data that they thought were sufficient for publication - should ask them why they waited so long!
Glad to see you both back. I was getting a little worried! Very interesting share. It all just keeps getting older and older! Any illustrations of the canoes and village? Thanks for sharing.
As well as the Polynesians, the ancestors of many of the people in the Philippines arrived from Taiwan in outrigger canoes with sails, which were called "balangay". Fishing boats and many other boats in the Philippines are outriggers. They are usually known as "bangka". I have always thought that outrigger canoes were the first type of "seaworthy" vessels. As you said, with access to the Tyrrhenian Sea from that location, they would have constructed the larger canoes in such a manner to make them seaworthy. Rigging, sails, and stabilisation via outriggers makes sense. 7000 years ago is older than the examples in the Philippines I think.
If those peg holes where for a outrigger , then surely it would make sense that the actual outrigger would be next to the canoe ? would you build a outriger that you could attach and disattach , surely you would build in as a permenant fixture ? Finally , peg holes is what i first seen , so could be for storage , of equipment ? any mast found with the canoes ? any oars found ? Love the channel btw , great stuff . Be happy
Thanks for this. I couldn't help but notice, in the photos you showed of the reconstructed canoes sailing, the Czech flag and the words "Projekt Navis". I checked that out and it is pretty fascinating. Those guys have been sailing reconstructed monoxylons (dugouts) around the Mediterranean since the 1990s.
neolithic boats are rarer than hens teeth, i cant think of another example from the neolithic. we find traces of the mesolithic and neolithic peoples on the far flung Hebridean Isles so we know they were there but have no evidence of how they got there. So it is a very important find.
People also got beyond the Wallace Line and to Australia about 40,000 years ago or earlier, when no land bridge existed… this always makes me think. Hard.
Those holes look very reasonable for rigging but unconvincing as outrigger lashing. Astonishingly difficult to find anything online about the voyage of the recreated canoe. As a traditional boatbuilder and former professional sailor with experience building replicas (relatively recent--early 1600's) and a lifelong interest in maritime archeology--I am stunned that I don't know a whole lot more about this-- particularly the replica!
Thanks again, guys! I picked up on this last week in Live Science and was really hoping you'd do a deeper dive on the subject. It's a great way to spend a cold, wet and windy Easter Sunday in the "inland Costa Blanca" of Spain. Off to follow you to ÇATALHÖYÜK now and learn about ancient bread... being coeliac, I often wonder what my life would have been like back then. Keep up the good work!
This stuff is so rare,,,,amazing finds! The whole business in archeology about finding even older boats is basically just bloody silly is it not? people were doing it tens of thousands of years ago....clearly from all the indirect evidence worldwide.
We have a great history of dugout canoes on the River Tay. A recent reconstruction was made and copied from an example found on the junction of the River Earn and Tay. Dundee Museum has a fine example.
Thanks for this update. I don't pretend to know much about prehistory but I have messed about with small boats of all sorts, so here's my input. With respect, these log boats having outrigger (floats) for stability is, well, unlikely. Before us Europeans entered the Pacific we never knew it could be done (feel free to prove me wrong!). I have never heard that there is any heritage of outrigger or catamaran craft in the Atlantic/Med basin. A quick look at how the Pacific craft were/are assembled will show you that the lashing points must be on both sides in order to stabilise the cross beams. So these 'Tee shaped' features if really only on one side would not have done the job. But I can't imagine what they would be for either; its pretty unusual to have asymmetry to that degree in a boat, even a simple one. A 4ft wide log boat at 36 ft long would be fairly stable if well shaped. Bailing the water out would have been a continuous task at sea. They would have had a sailing season and done a lot of waiting for favourable conditions. And probably one or two in every 10 trips, a boat would not reach its destination and disappear. Remember the trade in black polished axe heads between the English lake district and Ireland? The Irish sea is not for the faint-hearted but navigate it they did, presumably in log boats.
When discovered, canoes were held down with ropes, thus indicating that they did not leave naturally; as they would have taken these before the flooding.
For reference, this Pesse canoe from the Netherlands is quite a bit older but also seems to have been a lot less sophisticated: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesse_canoe
That lake is volcanic in origin, thus the soil would have been rich, natural vegetation abundant, and that would have readily supported abundant wildlife. What a spot, a garden of Eden!
the inhabitation of Malta is speculated to have happened on about the same timeline. so if these weren't used for seafaring, there were other "boats" that were.
Were those canoes already 7 thousand years old in the Neolithic period as your title suggests? I do not not think they were using boats that old then. That would not be safe. (Tongue in cheek.)
Don’t be silly! Aliens were NEVER in Atlantis! Any _expert_ would tell you they were too busy building the pyramids and seeding the planet with reptilians.
Sea levels were a couple of meters higher than now, during the Holocene Thermal Maximum (HTM), some 8,000 years ago. Don’t tell climatologists, but temperatures in the Arctic were up to 5 degrees c warmer than now (mainly due to increased axial obliquity), and the Sahara turned green and fertile. R
Ramsey your fight record says your only 5ft 11 , thats small but you look big against most the people in yout videos ? It also says you won 3 fights lost 4 , so you lost more than 50% of the time ? Im wondering what percentage of losing means you dont know how to fight ?
Training with weapons is normal in martial arts . Its only recently some clubs drop trad training to adapt to sports . Do you ever fight people much bigger than you ? Did anyone born before mma know how to fight?
You sadly omitted a notably idiosyncratic design quirk of these Italian boats, namely that they are perfectly crafted to cruise in reverse at far higher speeds than forwards!?! Cheers guys ! Love it.
Does that mean the bow and the stern may not be as we assume them to be or that it aided them going up river against a current? Good point you make there either way.
my imagination tells me if people of the neolithic could understand stone the way they did then it seems to me they might pretty well understand the physics of other things... i do not think those people lacked imagination in the least.... they existed within the consciousness at hand... and that consciousness was their environment... in time and space... because the population of the earth was inevitable... the Natufian people were the people who traded obsidian from mt. hasan north of the black sea and south of jericho... it was the Natufian people who settled the horn of Africa and merged with the people from North Africa who were fleeing climate chage... that became ancient Egypt... the ancient Egyptian ahket is likely mt hasan....
I would think dugouts. Then again, I don’t know sh!t about ancient seafaring lol just seems like the simplest idea to create a canoe for a people just figuring out boats. Again though, I’m an idiot.
You guys rock! No Ancient Aliens, only Science!
This ain't the "History" Channel, you know. 😊
Thank goodness for that!! It’s obnoxious to search for ancient history topics and only 1 outa 10 is a legitimate historian or expert
What!!!? No aliens?...no phrasing like some think...and if so and experts agree?...gee Might learn something here
interesting report, I always find that underwater excavations are very fascinating giving us such a great look into the past.
Thank you for this presentation around our paper. Congratulation !!!. Juan Gibaja ( Marmotta team)
Hi Juan, so glad you liked it, thank you! You guys are doing some fantastic work. R
Thank you again ❤❤
My mind went to straight to outrigger gear too 🌊🏄♂️🌸
Mine as non sailor went to tipping over and rapidly learning how to swim.
So wonderful to see you guys x realise you're very busy but missed you x
Thanks once again for an interesting, Martian-free, sharing of news. Brilliant❤
I am so old that the first time I went to Stonehenge, you could walk right up to the stones, and see the 17th century graffiti--- people had carved their initials with serifs.
Hi guys, I love your show. I also think that (in broad strokes) the appreciation of established prehistory and the consideration of a very, very old culture on the planet pre-dating our known human culture are not mutually exclusive. I have an academic background in Environmental Studies, City Planning, and Theology. Facts established through the scientific method form the basis of further study in countless directions. While I stand on established conclusions of science, I also allow myself the opportunity to speculate and imagine what remains unknown. This is a fantastic episode. I’ve been researching the effects of climate change on Mediterranean cultures at the 4.2 Kiloyear. This episode provides meat on the bones of the cultures in the Middle Bronze Age. Thanks for your hard work.
Fascinating information. Skilled and entertaining presentation. Thank you.
Underwater excavations are so cool and so enticing! Its so intriguing how conservation teams create the perfect environment in their museaums to keep these artifacts safe from degridation
Northwest coast native American canoes were up to 50 feet long and 8 feet wide.
What dates are they? People were trading along the eastern Atlantic coast, ie Western Europe, up from the south to Britain, Ireland and Scotland during the bronze age but evidenced only by cargoes of 2 wrecks. Tin and copper were both mined in Cornwall and Wales respectively.
Also 750bc phoenecian trading vessel (wrecked) was 18m (58 ft long). This wasnt a canoe though.
@@helenamcginty4920 The The Ozette Native American Village Archeological Site dates back to 2K years ago, but the sea going canoes probably go back much further. The canoes were used for trading and whaling. Evidence of inhabitancy ( burials sites) in this coastal region date to 10,000 years ago. It's not so much how old the canoes are, but how impressive, hewn from the massive trees of the coastal Pacific Northwest of North America. The climatic and coastal environment has not been conducive to their preservation.
@@helenamcginty4920along the northwest coast? No lol
Lovely show chaps. Thank you!
Aloha, Canoeing on open ocean works very well. It’s a very safe way of travel as you do not cross unknown tribal territories. Love your show!
Until there’s a big wave lol
@@Andy_Babbcanoes can be emptied when full of water in the middle of the ocean.
@@808bigisland Unless it sinks bc everyone’s trying not to drown. Look, I totally think humans used canoes over ocean and maybe reached the Americas from Polynesia… I’m also saying it’s easy for a canoe to go under when it’s on open ocean
Apparently the Lurgan Canoe which was referenced around 13:30 seems to show similar levels of development as it also had internal ribs and small holes along the sides suggesting that they would have affixed an outrigger or other attachments. It doesn't seem like they found anything like those other pieces, though. In any case, whether it was actually used for travel on the seas is debated as some researchers think that gives its size it was for ceremonial purposes (Although this might just be them clinging to the old habit of declaring anything out of the ordinary to be for ritual purposes).
Also, I just wanted to add that I enjoyed the episode!
I love you, guys! 😂😂
Lake of Bracciano pronunciation is almost correct! Only the "o" at the end is more like an "ow"!
the paper was Received: November 21, 2023; Accepted: February 14, 2024; Published: March 20, 2024; so it was the authors that seemed to take forever to have the data that they thought were sufficient for publication - should ask them why they waited so long!
Glad to see you both back. I was getting a little worried!
Very interesting share. It all just keeps getting older and older!
Any illustrations of the canoes and village?
Thanks for sharing.
Photos and illustration at 1:42 and 3:31 in case you missed it 🎉
There may have been a similar settlement on the shore of "The Silver Pit" before the Storegga Tsunami.
As well as the Polynesians, the ancestors of many of the people in the Philippines arrived from Taiwan in outrigger canoes with sails, which were called "balangay". Fishing boats and many other boats in the Philippines are outriggers. They are usually known as "bangka". I have always thought that outrigger canoes were the first type of "seaworthy" vessels. As you said, with access to the Tyrrhenian Sea from that location, they would have constructed the larger canoes in such a manner to make them seaworthy. Rigging, sails, and stabilisation via outriggers makes sense. 7000 years ago is older than the examples in the Philippines I think.
Those canoes are so-o-o long!
GOOD one today !!
More great info, TY.
If those peg holes where for a outrigger , then surely it would make sense that the actual outrigger would be next to the canoe ? would you build a outriger that you could attach and disattach , surely you would build in as a permenant fixture ? Finally , peg holes is what i first seen , so could be for storage , of equipment ? any mast found with the canoes ? any oars found ? Love the channel btw , great stuff . Be happy
Thanks for this. I couldn't help but notice, in the photos you showed of the reconstructed canoes sailing, the Czech flag and the words "Projekt Navis". I checked that out and it is pretty fascinating. Those guys have been sailing reconstructed monoxylons (dugouts) around the Mediterranean since the 1990s.
So interesting. Thanks for posting.
Fabulous one gents. Thx!
neolithic boats are rarer than hens teeth, i cant think of another example from the neolithic. we find traces of the mesolithic and neolithic peoples on the far flung Hebridean Isles so we know they were there but have no evidence of how they got there. So it is a very important find.
People also got beyond the Wallace Line and to Australia about 40,000 years ago or earlier, when no land bridge existed… this always makes me think. Hard.
Those holes look very reasonable for rigging but unconvincing as outrigger lashing.
Astonishingly difficult to find anything online about the voyage of the recreated canoe. As a traditional boatbuilder and former professional sailor with experience building replicas (relatively recent--early 1600's) and a lifelong interest in maritime archeology--I am stunned that I don't know a whole lot more about this-- particularly the replica!
Thanks again, guys! I picked up on this last week in Live Science and was really hoping you'd do a deeper dive on the subject. It's a great way to spend a cold, wet and windy Easter Sunday in the "inland Costa Blanca" of Spain. Off to follow you to ÇATALHÖYÜK now and learn about ancient bread... being coeliac, I often wonder what my life would have been like back then. Keep up the good work!
This stuff is so rare,,,,amazing finds! The whole business in archeology about finding even older boats is basically just bloody silly is it not? people were doing it tens of thousands of years ago....clearly from all the indirect evidence worldwide.
Thank you for posting!
1.2 meters seems fairly narrow- not surprising they theorize @ lateral floats/pontoons to help stability.
outriggers would be detachable and probably stored near coast .
You made it back OK. Good.
… riiiiiiight.
Fascinating. 😮
We have a great history of dugout canoes on the River Tay. A recent reconstruction was made and copied from an example found on the junction of the River Earn and Tay. Dundee Museum has a fine example.
Thanks for this update. I don't pretend to know much about prehistory but I have messed about with small boats of all sorts, so here's my input. With respect, these log boats having outrigger (floats) for stability is, well, unlikely. Before us Europeans entered the Pacific we never knew it could be done (feel free to prove me wrong!). I have never heard that there is any heritage of outrigger or catamaran craft in the Atlantic/Med basin.
A quick look at how the Pacific craft were/are assembled will show you that the lashing points must be on both sides in order to stabilise the cross beams. So these 'Tee shaped' features if really only on one side would not have done the job. But I can't imagine what they would be for either; its pretty unusual to have asymmetry to that degree in a boat, even a simple one.
A 4ft wide log boat at 36 ft long would be fairly stable if well shaped. Bailing the water out would have been a continuous task at sea. They would have had a sailing season and done a lot of waiting for favourable conditions. And probably one or two in every 10 trips, a boat would not reach its destination and disappear. Remember the trade in black polished axe heads between the English lake district and Ireland? The Irish sea is not for the faint-hearted but navigate it they did, presumably in log boats.
Thank you Guys. Really interesting subject.
Dang, that's a big canoe!
Not sure you should have a sail on a canoe without a centreboard. Says outrigger to me too.
👍
Thanks..
I can relate to your thoughts...
Another good vid from you guys.
When discovered, canoes were held down with ropes, thus indicating that they did not leave naturally; as they would have taken these before the flooding.
It seems that keeping them underwater until needed helped preserve them. They didn't dry out and split.
For reference, this Pesse canoe from the Netherlands is quite a bit older but also seems to have been a lot less sophisticated: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesse_canoe
That lake is volcanic in origin, thus the soil would have been rich, natural vegetation abundant, and that would have readily supported abundant wildlife. What a spot, a garden of Eden!
Shows how advanced civilization was well before Stonehenge!
Homo Erectus must have built similar vessels 100s of 1000s of years ago to be found on Java, for example.
Good point re the already established trade networks of the Mesolithic.
the inhabitation of Malta is speculated to have happened on about the same timeline.
so if these weren't used for seafaring, there were other "boats" that were.
We must have lost so much under the sea.
How did cyclopes build cyclopean walls with no depth perception?
That’s the best question I’ve heard yet. Maybe they just eyeballed it. 😂
Were those canoes already 7 thousand years old in the Neolithic period as your title suggests? I do not not think they were using boats that old then. That would not be safe. (Tongue in cheek.)
Oh boy. 🤦🏻♂️
😂😂😂😂
They are not canoes but life pods from a stricken ancient alien spacecraft. How dare you try to keep this from the world! 😅
I suppose the Australians used canoes to travel to that land 65 000 years ago.
There's no way these people could have made boats.
They had to have been helped by aliens who lived in Atlantis
Don’t be silly! Aliens were NEVER in Atlantis! Any _expert_ would tell you they were too busy building the pyramids and seeding the planet with reptilians.
Hey you guys is that that too far off to think that Boats were used during the glacial maximum your friend in Moab Utah
We stiw make em lyk dat on da isle o wiht. I got wan just lyk dat..ooh yarrr..
Tf does that even mean? It looks like a cat jumped on your keyboard.
Sea levels were a couple of meters higher than now, during the Holocene Thermal Maximum (HTM), some 8,000 years ago.
Don’t tell climatologists, but temperatures in the Arctic were up to 5 degrees c warmer than now (mainly due to increased axial obliquity), and the Sahara turned green and fertile.
R
They were lower. Doggerland was just gone underwater. And glaciers weren't all melted.
@@lenabreijer1311Clearly somebody who doesn’t like actual science lol
(Him, not you)
@@Andy_Babbin the video it say the level was lower at the time, climate change 8,000 years ago, who knew! 😅
How can you not know the name of the Tyrrhenian sea? from Tyrsenoi, the ancient name of the Etruscans...I mean, and you are the pre-history guys?
Ramsey your fight record says your only 5ft 11 , thats small but you look big against most the people in yout videos ? It also says you won 3 fights lost 4 , so you lost more than 50% of the time ? Im wondering what percentage of losing means you dont know how to fight ?
Training with weapons is normal in martial arts . Its only recently some clubs drop trad training to adapt to sports . Do you ever fight people much bigger than you ? Did anyone born before mma know how to fight?
Why would I fight somebody bigger than me? That sounds counterproductive.
666th!
You sadly omitted a notably idiosyncratic design quirk of these Italian boats, namely that they are perfectly crafted to cruise in reverse at far higher speeds than forwards!?!
Cheers guys ! Love it.
Does that mean the bow and the stern may not be as we assume them to be or that it aided them going up river against a current? Good point you make there either way.
@@greendragonreprised6885Yes - its head and its bum are the same. It’s like Cat-Dog but a canoe. Lol
my imagination tells me if people of the neolithic could understand stone the way they did then it seems to me they might pretty well understand the physics of other things... i do not think those people lacked imagination in the least.... they existed within the consciousness at hand... and that consciousness was their environment... in time and space... because the population of the earth was inevitable... the Natufian people were the people who traded obsidian from mt. hasan north of the black sea and south of jericho... it was the Natufian people who settled the horn of Africa and merged with the people from North Africa who were fleeing climate chage... that became ancient Egypt... the ancient Egyptian ahket is likely mt hasan....
7,000 years ago i image people had been using planked boats... the idea of covering a frame with skin is ancient.. it is natural to think that way...
I would think dugouts. Then again, I don’t know sh!t about ancient seafaring lol just seems like the simplest idea to create a canoe for a people just figuring out boats. Again though, I’m an idiot.
@@Andy_Babb
is it easier?... to dig out a tree... or to take the limbs and to make a bowl?...
@@Andy_Babb
a dugout weighs more than a light skinned craft...
@@Andy_Babb
the idea trees could float probably came from water...
@@Andy_Babb
i think that would be a great title for a book... if birds had winds... why don't pelicans....