Goth Genre, Subgenre, or Style?
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- čas přidán 20. 03. 2019
- The Evolution of Goth Music (video):
• Evolution of Goth Music
The Evolution of Goth Music (article):
cadaverkelly.com/2019/01/28/t...
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I need more of goth music theory in my life, it would be absolutely awesome to see more content like this!
You got it! I’ll be talking a lot about music on this channel. I’ll be doing more sound analysis videos like this in the future as well. 😊
@@CadaverKelly So exciting, I'll be looking forward to those!
I enjoyed this video. Goth + education is always a win for me. I listen to different goth genres, but I can't always explain in words the differences. I appreciate your break down of the subgenres.
Thanks so much! I’m sure I will be doing more genre analysis videos in the future since there are so many nuances to explore 😊
I studied music in college and I'm an older goth, and from both perspectives, you explained this all very well :)
Thank you! I really appreciate the feedback 😃
Drab Majesty has more of an 80's club vibe to me compared to the other darkwave bands I listen to. I could see Drab Majesty making it to the radio, that's how much more overpowering their synth and dreamy sound is.
Exactly! Still some fantastic music, though. 😊
I didn't understand a lot of the musical terms (not yet) but this was really easy and complete. Definitely a way better than searching all the sub-genres and trying to figure it out the differences
I’m glad it was helpful! 😊 It makes a lot more sense to start at the larger categories (like rock) and work your way down to hear some of the more subtle differences.
I Play Guitar and sing in a Band.I am influenced by many Styles and Genres.I never think about what I am doing when I make a new Song and it's always funny to hear what the people hear in our Music. That keeps it entertaining.
Sorry if I appear to be spamming your channel with multiple posts, but as a lover of PostPunk, Deathrock, Goth, and most other similar dark genres of rock, I really think that yours is probably the most accurate and most thoughtful channel I've found on here. Great work. You do your research AND you love the music (it shows). Subscribing!
Thank you so much and welcome!
music theory is such an interesting concept (AND ONE IM STILL TRYING TO LEARN 😭) sometimes i just like to listen, and other times i get intrigued and start trying to analyze (and failing). and i hear distinctions in the artists i listen to, but i rlly wanted to narrow it down some more. thanks for this!!!
There is something that many people didn't realize: Most of the early Gothic bands used one guitar and one bass guitar. Later Goth bands such as Fields of the Nephilim use two guitars. That creates a bigger Rock feel. Some early stuff by the Fields sounds less rock-oriented, A track like *"Dark Cell"* uses one guitar and one bass guitar. It sounds completely different.
Some of us use bass and violin, no other guitars at all.
I love your videos! I really appreciate content on the subculture that goes beyond the more "immediate" aspects of it that can be shown off, and that deal a little more with artistry and thought put into the subculture.
Thank you so much! 🖤
You did a great job here, organized, well thought out and no nonsense. Great introduction.
hey, thanks so much for making videos like this, im making an essay debating why goth is a music based subculture in school. again, thanks so much. :)
I'm definitely not an academic nor a musician, but I've researched a lot of music genres! I think you're very good at explaining music terms in a simple way. I love your videos, you seem lovely and friendly and you're a great addition in the gothic youtube🖤
Thank you so much! I’m glad you liked it 😊
Fun Fact: Goth and Emo were originally subgenres of Punk, and punk was originally a subgenre of Rock music.
It's rather obvious with Rock, Metal and Punk.
I really enjoyed the way you organize music. :) Thank You!
This video is so informative, I swear I'm always learning something new and interesting whenever I visit your channel :)
Thank you! I’m so glad to hear it. 😊
Excellent video. Just what I was looking for. Thank you so much for sharing smart and fabulous content.
This is so informative, wonderful video :)) !
Great video.
Thank you! 😊
Thanks for this. You explained the genres really well😊
Thank you for watching! 😊
Thank u for this been trying to understand the music theory of goth becuz ive been thinking of potentially making my own music so this really helped
Excellent analysis - kudos for recognising the hard rock contribution to goth rock. A lot of younger goths tend to overlook it completely.
I love how deep and thoughtful this video is !
Excellent video!
Thanks so much, Kelly, for bringing this information to us. I appreciate how the goth could be so diverse and mixed at the same time. Coldwave, gothic rock and darkwave are my favourite.
Kelly, this was awesome, I learned a few things from it, thanks!
I’m so glad to hear it. Thank you for watching! 😊🦇
Thanks, Kelly! I studied music, too (was a music minor in college and a musician for a while), so this was very interesting to me. :)
Awesome! I’m glad to hear from a fellow musician 😊
As a musician this helps. I’ve been trying to add goth music to my bands music. We’re like industrial black metal with death metal, symphonic, Darkwave, and other styles added
My favorite video you have made so far, and I'm pretty sure I just went to school on Gothic music. I think everyone should know some music theory. Thank You.
Wow. You nailed it.
Great video, much better than a lot of the information that can be found on the internet these days. You have a new subscriber :)
Thank you! 😊🦇
I've really been loving your videos! You give the CZcams goth community a breath of fresh air. I look forward to your next video! 🦇🦇🦇
Thank you so much! 🦇
@@CadaverKelly You're welcome, my dear! World Goth Day is in two months.
learning alot, thanks so much love your channel !!!! keep up the great work!! I "Thought" I was Goth back in the days and feel like it was all a lie lol :)
Thank you for this!! I think about classifying music all the time, but I don't have the technical knowledge or the trained ear to actually do it XD I'd love to see more videos like this! I'm subscribing and checking out your other videos now; I love hearing people talk about the music!! 🖤
Thank you for the sub and welcome! 😃
I agree one of them it's Blutengel
wow Kelly, such informative video girl!!! yeeeeees! Btw I love darkwave, that was thing that drive me into the gothic community, then gothic rock and post punk, and now I like synth too, pretty much focused in the 80s style that's my thing. I'm glad that there are new bands doing good music too! anyways, thanks for this video this is the contect I like in my gothtubers! honest talk why don't you have more subs! I'm blessed!
Thank you so much! 🖤
+Ashy DR: Darkwave was what did it for me too, which makes sense 'cause I grew up (and still love) '80s New Wave. 💜
Another ghost friend!
I like your video. constructive criticism: i'd like more examples of bands/musicians that exemplify a style (early goth/80s goth rock/darkwave/etc). we usually get two or three bands but i always just want a couple more! I also think the articulation section needs fleshing out. i don't see much of stacatto ANYTHING in the song "spellbound," the only empty space in the vocal melody being in the rests. I will say however that during the chorus of the song the diction/consonants are much more pronounced (though no stacatto separation; rather the notes are accented). I think this distinction is so important because Siouxsie's heavier diction in the chorus creates an affective/emotive contrast in relation to the rest of the song. If you'd like to hear a little more stacatto in Siouxsie listen to "switch." The chorus really contrasts the rest of the song and the guitar part there is as stacatto as the band really gets, while Sioixsie has some rests/space in the chorus and even a little in the rest of the song, but I still think you could dig up some more apt examples of vocal stacatto/tremolo in goth singing and that would totally rule. Thanks for these videos!
Danny Vogel Thank you for the feedback! I’m always looking to improve my content. I’m going to do videos talking about more artists and mention their styles more 😊
you're knowledge of the genre seems extensive, I'm happy to see what you come up with next. very enjoyable.
I truly appreciate this video more than any other I saw about the essence of Goth which, on my perspective, is art... I've found this essence it's more focus in music than (although literature, visual arts, and social history have been the raw inspiration to musicians dedicated to the 'Goth' concept), music has been the most fluent way of expression, besides our own sense of style.
This video is helpful because ex.: in my community, there's a lot of people that take the term 'Goth' to associate it with anything that reflects any mysterious behavior, concept or aesthetic (Black Metal, Symphonic Metal, Industrial, EBM, and Darkwave in some cases).
What that people ignore is the fact that because at the time, since metalheads, cybers and goth were minorities, the best choice sometimes (and in some countries) was to share the venue. So the inspiration might be the same but not all mysterious things are Goth. This video clarifies it in a polite and educative way and that's very important to me. That all the Goth enthusiast that doesn't know much can reach out to this amazing source of information with no shame at all.
Thanks a lot!
Thank you for watching! 😊
As a musician who is studying on music theory and loves post punk and goth rock, this is pretty accurate and I can easily say this is a great video :)
Mmm I'm not the most music technical person out there but the way I learned and studied Goth music was just focusing and zeroing in on the way the instruments sound. Again, I'm not a technical person with the proper jargon and whatnot but in my research of goth music, I usually hear the strong reverb guitar work in Goth music and that's how I determine if a band's sound is a Goth one. It's actually a combination of Strong reverb guitar, thumpy bass guitar, drum machine (or at least drum machine mimicking if it's a real drummer), and the singing style which is usually of a droning type of style (some more extreme than others). And then when it comes to the subgenres, I notice that you usually will hear the base formulaic structure/pattern you hear in your standard goth music only in the subgenre, they've mixed in another instrument (In Darkwave, Synth Keyboards and in Ethereal, the distorted dreamy like synths to the guitars).
But in saying all this, this is why I don't understand how some people are so insistent on saying things like Metal music is Goth music because in this case, most Gothic Metal doesn't use any of the characteristics of Goth insturmentation. The only thing that comes close is Doom Metal (Type O Negative & Tiamat come to mind) but still ,it's mostly rooted in Metal, just played much more heavier. With Goth music, just like any other genre it has certain criteria that makes it what it is and that is why I just cannot fathom why people say those kinds of things because if they actually listened closely ot the instrumentation, they'd understand why a genre like Symphonic Metal, Gothic Metal, or even Industrial aren't Goth in terms of sound).
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. This was a great informative video. Thank you. :)
Thanks for the watch! I always think of gothic metal as using “gothic” in the historical sense. Goth music and metal are both alternative rock groupings. But, outside of that, there isn’t a lot in common. The goth styles I covered in the video are all tied together by some key style choices that is consistent across all of them (primarily lead guitar and bass work, but of course there are other factors at play). That being said, there’s a lot of goths who are also metalheads. I think if someone is drawn to one type of alternative rock, there’s a good chance they might like another kind. I’m not a huge metal fan. I do enjoy a bit of punk, though. 😊
@@CadaverKelly Yeah you're right that Gothic Metal is only called "Gothic" from a lyrical standpoint (and some instrumentation like the use of mixing some bits of classical into it) but honestly, any genre of music can have Gothic lyrical content.
And oh yes, I'm very aware that some Goths also enjoy Metal music and that is no problem at all, I like some Metal myself (very picky with it lol) but the only time it gets to be a problem is if a person only likes Metal and thinks that liking Metal (Gothic Metal / Black Metal) makes them a Goth when they don't like actual Goth music, that is when it becomes a bit redundant if you know what I mean lol.
And ah Punk I see, neat! Me personally, when I'm not listening to Goth music, my main spread of favorite music is actually 90s Alternative rock like The Smashing Pumpkins or Garbage so I do get the idea of loving two different genres haha.
Kai Decadence I love Smashing Pumpkins and Garbage!! I also like Silversun Pickups, who are a little bit like Smashing Pumpkins. I like some 90’s alternative. I’m also into Rockabilly, Blues Rock, and 60’s underground psychedelic. Goth is my main focus. But, I’ve got quite the oddball mix outside of goth. Haha
@@CadaverKelly Yeah those two bands are some of my all time favorites and I really need to see them live some day. I was already mad at myself for missing Garbage's 20 Years Queer tour as I love their debut album and from what I saw on CZcams, they put on one hell of a show haha.
Rockabilly, Blues Rock, and 60s Psychedelic are pretty fun. I'm pretty all over the place as well with music. Heck I even like some Disco music (I admit it LOL). So don't worry dear, I can relate haha.
Part of it has to do with a number of metal band that are thrown into the gothic metal scene because they have a female singer that might wear something that looks goth. Even though the bands ie Epica, Nightwish, Delain have more in common with power, prog, and death metal (Epica). It's also people not understanding that symphonic metal was never born from gothic metal.
You and I seem to have a similar - enough background in music (fifteen years of voice training, four years of viola, about three years general music theory), so I'm not at all surprised that I'm largely in agreement with this.
Though my mother, in her own words, "abandoned a mediocre career in the operatic chorus to be a [Frank Zappa] groupie," was obviously a classical musician, she dove headfirst into the experimental genres that began emerging in the late 1960s, and passed that enthusiasm onto me. While it can be interesting to sort out my music collection by subgenre and sub-subgenre and all, I more often than not tend to sort out my mp3, LP, and CD collections by Mood, or other themes (like music appropriate for my home Pagan rituals, or what kind of events I'd DJ at with it - I've done both Gothic/New Wave and Mod/Ska events). At the end of the day, I tend to just be all, "Goth is Goth is Goth, and I know it when I hear it," and nit-picking genre is often little more than mental masturba+ion - which doesn't mean that it lacks value (unless one is just REALLY bad at it, I suppose), it is means that there's simply a time and place to do it.
I do a little bit of both. I will sort digital music files by grouping similar styles together for playlists and whatnot. I also will make playlists for different moods, especially playlists for working out vs. more meditative purposes. But, I usually organize my physical records alphabetically. I have several hundred at this point so it’s pretty hard to find anything unless they are alphabetized. If only I had a search bar for my vinyl records! 😆 I find analyzing the nuances really interesting and it helps me explain the differences and relationship in music that is goth vs. the closely related music (post-punk, New Wave, etc.). Goth music is definitely a style grouping that could be picked out by an experienced listener without having to pull out the individual technical choices to determine that. I know a lot of non-musicians that have been listening to goth music long enough that they can just listen to the music and know whether it fits without knowing the first thing about music techniques.
Oh! Just remembered the importance of Zappa to this conversation:
So, if anyone is unfamiliar with Frank Zappa and his work, he was a musician, best known as a guitarist and singer, who was lead member of The Mothers of Invention. It's hard, neigh impossible, to give his entire body of work to a single genre. Most of his work could be easily described as either "jazz-influenced rock," or "rock-influenced jazz," and either term is arguably correct. He also made songs and whole albums in neoclassical, doo-wop, New Wave, that nebulous Proto-Heavy Metal, folk rock, prog, and probably other genres that slip my mind. While his commercial success was always limited, especially in the States (though he was fairly big in Europe, especially Germany) his ability to write not just competent, but objectively good music in every genre he attempted (even if, lyrically, he often went for novelty - he had a few songs in the old Dr Demento show rotations), a lot of music critics have often regarded him as a genius, especially when it came to experimentation.
Growing up with his music, I have, at this point an innate regard for subgenre as both somewhat fascinating and ultimately meaningless. Broader categories can be useful, but only to a point, and some bands and musicians ultimately defy categorisation. For example, if we look at Rozz Williams' entire body of work, the dominant genres, in order of most to least recorded material, are industrial noise/avant-garde, dark cabaret, gothic rock, darkwave, punk/"deathrock."
Ruadhán 1334 Definitely! Zappa’s influence is pretty far reaching. Subgenres and especially how that structure is stylized can be pretty subjective. Some music theorists have argued that genres in general are completely subjective. Although, I tend to disagree with that. There are definitely irrefutably measurable factors that make up larger categories like rock, jazz, or blues. When it comes to categorizing further, it is all theoretical. Although with any type of theory, it needs to be backed up with a supporting case to be widely accepted. I also really agree with you that certain artists cannot be strictly categorized. The new EP from Neon Tzigane that I reviewed last week is a perfect example of an artist pulling from multiple categories, even within the same track. When I pick artists to be examples of categories, like the ones I used in this video, I try to choose those who are fairly cut and dry examples. As far as Rozz Williams goes, his work with Christian Death is often placed into the Deathrock category. But, I would argue that Deathrock is merely Gothic Post-Punk that leans a little closer to punk in tempo, vocals, and distortion. I don’t think it differentiates itself enough to stand alone as a complete style template.
Hey Kelly. Wow, what a great video. I'm going to watch this a few times to understand it fully, but it is a really informative piece. 5 years ago, I would just mistakenly call all Goth 'Darkwave', without even caring if that was wrong (the joys of ignorance)....
Do you like any Neoclassical Dark wave music? Although I love predominantly Goth Rock, I'm a big fan of groups like Dark Sanctuary and Autumn Tears etc.
Thanks for watching! Neoclassical darkwave isn’t really my thing. It’s not bad but not my favorite either.
Another great video, thanks for recommending it!
I love New wave, Coldwave and Darkwave in addition to Goth Rock (and a bunch of other stuff)
Have you listened to, The Rope, Second Still, Shadowhouse or Agnes Circle, if not they're some awesome bands to check out.
I have! They are great. 😊
@Joseph P
This distinction isn't really useful. Ask some French Wave/Goth fans from the glory 80s. They described Goth bands such as Siouxsie as Cold Wave. To them, even Joy Division was Cold Wave.
Same in Germany. In German magazines Gothic Rock was called Dark Wave. There are tons of magazines of the 80s and 90s that describe Goth bands as Dark Wave. German bands such as Garden of Delight, The Merry Thoughts, Pink Turns Blue, Girls Under Glass, Marquee Moon... They all were called Dark Wave. Also The Mission UK and Fields of The Nephilim
@@daisaigai7 Okay...
That may be the case but if your someone who didn't grow up in the heyday when researching genres there is some distinction.
Coldwave/Touching Pop, bands like Asylum Party, Marquis De Sade, Babel 17, Mary Goes Round, Little Nemo and Twilight Ritual to name a few have a sound similar but different from Post-Punk and goth bands.
If we are to go off what the media and newspaper articles said in the dawn of an era, The Doors were reffered to as Gothic Rock. At the beginning of the Post-Punk Goth scene it was even referred to as positive punk.
Darkwave definitely evolved out of Goth Rock and New Wave it has a very distinct sound, bands/musicians like Gary Numan, Xymox, Attrition, Pink Turns Blue, Paralyzed Age, Rosetta Stone, Diary of Dreams, Shadowhouse... Anyways I could go on from the perspective of someone studying music who didn't actually live in the scene at the time.
@Joseph P
I don't know what "Touching Pop" means. Never heard before. Asylum Party and other bands sound like their British forerunners. The difference is the language. It's just a French type of Post-Punk/Dark Wave.
Dark Wave didn't evolve out of Gothic Rock. Dark Wave includes Gothic Rock. It's just one type of Dark Wave music. Many Gothic Rock bands have been described as New Wave, includng Sisters of Mercy and others. But it was "dark New Wave" compared to other New Wave bands. That's the entire story.
💘
but andrew eldritch denies that they were a goth rock band, why? Thanks for the video btw
Ok you mentioned one of the groups I played in . We never considered all this , It purely started with a few rifts on a guitar or a few lines worked out in the bath . We didn't Know this was to be tabled as Goth or any other category .
Does it sound good yup just add a bit here and hope everyone likes it within the band . It was a lot more about egos than technical structure
I love all of the groups I mentioned so you did a fantastic job! The organizational theory is more the reasoning behind why I place certain music into particular categories.
What song was playing at the ending of this video?
It's a royalty free track from the CZcams free audio library called "It Devours." Here's the link:
czcams.com/video/n6WRJ19QoY0/video.html
Aren't Cocteau Twins ethereal wave too?
Goth is weird. Originally it was a small british thing and called "Gothic". It referred to the more dark and "bizarre" soundscapes of Joy Division and the Banshees, it wasn't a genre then. "Goth" was a term affiliated with some Sex Gang Children fans. Bands like Brigandage and Blood&Roses were dubbed "Positive Punk". The "Raincoat" scene were a style and a group of Bands too, including early the Cure. Then there was the Batcave scene with Bands like Specimen and Alien Sex Fiend. Later fashions were the "Cureheads" and the "Bonanzas". The Press threw all of this together in one big pot. And strangely suddenly it became synonymous with the Sisters of Mercy who had little to do with those scenes at all and even hated most of it. You won't come far with analyzing the term musically, those bands were ALL extremely different. That was half of the fun at the beginning, and too many Sisters-clones and bands drifting away into Metal and post-industrial was what killed it. Eventually Goth became associated only wirh certain fashions and ways to style and dress...
This is just how I organize my music collection based on similar sounds. It ain’t that deep. 😆
Exactly. I have Punky/Hardcory bands/Darkwavey/Gothy bands and hard electronic/Industrial type of bands. Plus New Wave/Numusick/80ies pop.
I have to say that you are absolutely gorgeous
What do u. Think of heath goth
☥ 11:11 ☥
Most subjondras came from wicca