Arrows v's Gambeson fabric armour
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- čas přidán 13. 09. 2020
- Properly made medieval fabric armour was tough, thick and common - but how good is it against arrow strikes? Lets find out!
It was often worn with maille as well, but that will be for another film, this is just about standard and toughened gambesons and what happens when you shoot them with 4 different medieval arrow types from a 160lbs longbow simulator.
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This modern crossbow shoots medieval weight arrows at the same speed as a 160lbs medieval longbow and if you want to see the chrono readings and get the full story start with this film • CRAZY idea... War bow ...
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Some notes on what I have done and why I have done it like this.
I don't have time for stringent multiple testing and that would also need multiple samples otherwise the first would be too compromised.- this is just for a taste; a direction of what would have happened, not a definitive answer.
What I am doing is testing like for like; one thing against another and that leads to some choices....
The panels are flat because if they were curved I could not get repeatability.
The distance is short because otherwise I would be collecting misses all day, but because I am simply comparing one with another the answer is the same at 10m or 100m - one will be better than another.
The backing foam is irrelevant because it allows me to cheaply compare one with another; to use a gel torso would add £350 a video.
The armour is not composite of gambeson and maille for example because then I would not know what element was effective against a bladed head or a needle head for example.
Later films will show maille and gambeson for example and on a simple test like that than I can also do some distance shots.
Good work Tod, I'm happy to see how much your channel has grown in the last couple years.
On this video, I'm watching and thinking how historic is for someone to be shot straight on, perpendicular to the chest and at such a short distance. If it's not, you wouldn't expect that soldier's protection was that effective at it. Of course, I'm not saying it never happened just that most soldiers weren't getting an arrow under these circumstances.
Your crossbow will let you shoot with reasonably good precision; have you considered increasing the distance to the target considerably, maybe 5 or 7 times or even with some elevation?
I love your videos.
Might I suggest rotating your target let's say 30 degrees? You would get the effect of curvature and repeatability. It seems to me that direct hits such as these would be rare because of the natural curvature of the human body among other things.
Thank you for the channel. :)
This are great, 1 thing that pops to mind however is both the distance and the poundage of the bow.
160lb is possibly outside of 'normal' and on the high range as far as I can tell, this is likely not the representative bow of the time, and we have to keep in mind that basic principle for armour is that it should be sufficiently protective against the normal threats faced by a soldier, an extremily powerful bow like this likely isn't the normal threat, especially not at that short distance. It would be interesting to have as you did with another video, slightly longer distances, not a huge amount as to ensure hits, but still a bit further.
A less powerful bow tests, in the 120lb range could also be interesting, but i know there is a limit in gear and capability so this is still invaluable information regardless.
Great production you've got going here. Cheers from Washington
Great! Now just copy and paste your answers about angles, range, and foam into the description of every single video so you don't have to keep repeating yourself. Keep up the good work Tod!
Tod's childlike glee when he gets to check how far the arrows have gone in never gets old
Love all these different tests you’ve been doing Tod. One thing I’d like to suggest if it was possible during the editing stage of the video would be when you say “type 16” , “type 9” etc if you could flash up a quick image of the type of arrow head you are shooting just so us plebs can try to follow on I think would be fantastic!
Will try to remember to do this - sorry
@@tods_workshop Ah! No apology necessary. Just some of us don't have that info in our heads as handily.
@@MonkeyJedi99 I have so far watched the whole series and I still cannot remember which is which, so the suggestion if implemented would be very welcome.
I was about to suggest this
@@tods_workshop Great !
Soldier at a feast: "Oh no, I've spilled my wine all over my gambeson! Oh well, could you pass the salt? Dang it, now I've dumped the salt all over myself! I need to go change." Leaves the table and promptly trips and falls into a cauldron of glue. Looks at his gambeson. "WAIT a minute..."
@nickyiil If he fell in a cauldron of hot glue then it's a safe bet he died within a few days from secondary effects (like infections) resulting from the burns.
Its probably what actually happened.
@@alexandernorman5337 Na, hideglue doesn´t have to be that hot to be liquid. Just a very hot bath
Also glue would probably lose a lot of heat quiet fast, like adding cold water to a hot cup, in this case he'd be the cold water.
He would have been executed for wasting salt..
"Arrows vs Gambeson"
I think I can hear a very loud Australian who has great fondness for castles in the distance.
ᴹᵃᶜʰᶦᶜᵒˡᵃᵗᶦᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒⁿˢᵎ
I can hear a loud German laughter from the archer, as he pulls out his arrow-flinging device.
He can't wait to show us its features :D
@Hebl von Heblowitz it's only a matter of time, ready the horses 😂
I can imagine a showoff, tha Aussie fella with his gambesons running from Tod's lockdown crossbow
Let's remember that this lockdown bow is the equivalent of a 160lb english longbow. A gambeson is meant to resist light slashes not the medieval equivalent of a 120mm APFSDS.
From Saladin’s secretary Beha al-Din: "Their infantry, drawn up in front of the horsemen stood as firm as a wall, and every foot soldier wore a thick gambeson and mail hauberk so thick and strong that our arrows had no effect. I saw soldiers with from one to ten arrows sticking in them still trudging on in the ranks."
That could make sense.
Suppose whoever Saladin was fighting was used to being shot at by some of the heaviest war bows in the world, and Saladin's own forces were only used to lighter bows for use from horseback and by relatively less well-conditioned archers. Then their choice of armour would likely be much heavier than what Saladin was used to seeing, the lighter Saracen bows would have proved ineffective against it, and Saladin's secretary would and did find this worthy of note.
@@OptimalOwl " lighter Saracen bows". Where do you get that from? It's a Western myth that Asiatic composite bows where lighter or weaker than our longbows. If anything the opposite is true as the composite bow is more efficient than the longbow. Nor did horse archers choose lighter bows. They were long use to shooting very powerful bows & long use to (& very skilled) riding at the same time.
@@2bingtim It's true, I don't know anything in particular about Saracen bows.
What I think I know comes from what I haven't heard as much as from what I have heard. I've never heard of the Saracens going as far as the English did in procuring the strongest possible archers - enforcing daily training for the whole male population, abolishing all other sports and so on. I've also never heard of Arabic or North African skeletons being recovered which had deformed backs and shoulders from a lifetime of repeatedly drawing the heaviest possible bows.
As for horse bows being as heavy as the very heaviest possible infantry bows, well... I claim no certain knowledge that that isn't possible, but I would presume against it. I would be surprised if you couldn't put more of your body into drawing your bow with both feet on firm ground than while sitting in a saddle.
Tod's bow is ridicously strong at an equivalent of a 160pd if I am remembering correctly. Which is the upper end of bows we have found on the Mary Rose, while most of those bows where around 90pd to 120pd I think
@@TheWampam Yes, very strong indeed & few archers would get that far. (William the Conquerer was supposed to have a bow nobody else was capable of drawing, possibly close to 200lb). 90 to 130lbs the usual range for most longbowmen. However, the stronger the self(made from a single piece of timber)bow, the advantage gained diminshes, so a 150lb longbow does not shoot 1.5 times more than a 100lb bow. Also the skill of fashioning the bow can make it relatively better or worse at "cast"-the actual performance in shooting/propelling the arrow; so a well made 100lb bow can outshoot a less expertly made 130lb for example.
"Nothing to get excited about" he says, just as he starts to get excited.
everybody just CALM DOWN. WE GOTTA KEEP OUR COMPOSUREEEE!
I love these videos for two reasons. I find them interesting and I like how excited he is about doing the tests.
@@chrisjones6002 I agree completely
While a hardened gambeson may not offer significant advantages over arrows and bolts, it may against blunt impacts of against cuts.
Blackened linen could be boiled in a pot of Iron Galls and some other ingredients, perhaps bits of sinues and old hide, sort of like a rough form of the glue.
(edit) realised i should probably add my thought process there.
So Iron Galls are used for ink, and are actually quite acidic, this brings the acid, that is present in the wine, into the mix to soften the cellulose, which would allow the much thinner form of glue to penertrate deeper and more evenly.
When I was younger I was taught to add strong vinegar to hide glues, thins them out a bit and and supposedly made them harder, though I was also told that it made them more flexible so lord knows, though I can vouch that it will stop your dog thinking whatever youre trying to glue as it sets up is a rawhide chew.
I use iron gall ink on a regular basis. It is usually made from oak galls, iron sulfate, gum arabic and water. Galls are bulbous growths formed on the leaves and twigs of trees in response to attack by parasites. They are collected from oak, oak-apple and pistachio trees. The key ingredient is tannic acid which can be obtained elsewhere
@@daveh3997 Iron Galls is another name for Oak Galls
Ah oak apples. Cool I have some. Thanks.
i'd be interested into how they react against blades now
well mate skallagrim did a test on that stuff
I think both Skallagrim and Matt Easton of Schola Gladiatora have done cutting and thrusts tests against gambesons. iirc they stand up really well to cuts, but thrusts often penetrate.
How deep they penetrate depended on the type of tip-geometry of the blade. Some blades with a fairly wide tip, only penetrate a centimeter or two, and ones with a narrow, pointed tip went over 10cm past the gambeson.
I would suggest browsing through their channels and see if you can find it, they were pretty interesting tests, even if the method isn't entirely up to scientific standards. :)
suntiger745 i don’t remember them testing with hardened gambesons, guess i’ll hive it a second look
@@Sluggy_96 I don't think they have tested with hardened gambesons...
I know Skallagrim tested with a regular gambeson, soft leather armor and a piece of boiled leather.
As well as chainmail and plate.
@Skallagrim
The thing I'm taking away from all these videos is that you REALLY wouldn't want to be shot at with arrows.
Great White 160 lbs would be fairly typical at the height of the English war bow. The bows retrieved from the Mary Rose wreck varied between 100 and 180lbs with most around 150-160lbs.
I guess you kinda knew already before those videos :)
Battles generally, probably more fun to theorize about than to participate in.
@@ironpirate8 it's fun for the nobel in proper armour surrounded by a personal guard. You quickly become fairly immortal.
@Great White I'm no physicist, but I believe any arrow shot in an arc, ballistic style, would fall under the force of gravity alone, so the draw weight would only affect the distance it could fly. According to this thread on reddit, bows were typically fired as soon as the enemy was within maximum range and continued firing until they closed distance. So you would not experience the 160 pound force until you were within "whites of their eyes" distance. www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6fn8je/were_bows_shot_straight_or_in_an_arc_in_warfare/
I's be interested to know the differences in gambeson vs hardened gambeson when at an angle (say, 30 degrees). After all, arrows aren't always hitting straight-on, and my intuition is that the harder material will deflect the arrow more
This was my thought, and especially with the hardened gambeson which may have been moulded during the manufacturing process so that only a small fraction of the armour might be at right angle to a potential arrow shot (this would also apply to the boiled leather armour tested recently). ps. Black gambeson, please!
Damn, now thats a cliffhanger! Looking forward to more!
Is it just me or are the thuds the arrow impacts make, extremely satisfying.
Not just you I promise!
Really excited for the brigandine test. I feel like brigandine type armor never really get much love.
Would have been interesting to see how the two compared against a bladed attack for reference. Just an axe or something would do. Considering they were so similar in their resistance to piercing, perhaps the difference against cutting would be more significant?
Seeing blunt force would be equally interesting.
@@padalan2504 Having been kicked in the ribs while wearing a kevlar vest, I can confirm that blunt force travels through it quite well.
No broken ribs though, since it was practice. Definitely an eye-opener how much armor protects and not though.
@@suntiger745 I think Kevlar is more flexible. maybe the salted linen dumps in the blunt force better.
@@padalan2504 Kevlar is more flexible than the treated gambeson for sure.
Would probably need some kind of softer absorption layer under it though, like the foam on a bike or motorcycle helmet, otherwise too much of the force is transferred.
Then again, a gambeson is worn over clothes as I recall.
@@suntiger745 Yeah, a layer of something stiffer over something softer absorbs blunt impact much better. If it is just soft stuff, it bends around the impacting instrument and resists it mostly through being slightly stretch around the point of impact, doesn't do much. But if you have something stiff on top that won't bend and deform as much, basically making the point of impact just push the entire stiffer material into the softer one, that would would disperse the force over a larger area from the start and also allow the softer material to absorb the energy through compression of its entire volume instead.
Armourer: this modification may increase your chances of survival by 1‰
Soldier:shut up and take my money!
You need more subscribers. The best experimental history channel on CZcams!
Yeah several academics I follow on Twitter, and other places makes references to this channel. And some ideas/myths has been shattered by this channel so far :)
Thank you and I would like more subs too!
I was here before the title got fixed.
Didn't even notice 😂
Gamberson Audio change export
Gambeson Audio change Export GANG RISE UP
Igetthatreference.jpg
It is an interesting title if it is not an oversight
Love your work Tod !
Love your videos and love this series. Very interesting practical tests.
I watched a couple of on line videos about the ancient Greek version of Linen armor. Soaking in boiled linseed oil made the stuff a lot tougher as did various other ancient glues. They also found that completely hand process was distinctly tougher. Modern factory linen is not as strong even if cloth is hand woven.
I recently helped with a research paper on jute filler in tire tread, so I can lend what knowledge I have about modern fiber composites. For one, you would want to treat the fibers. The standard for treating jute fibers is submerging them in a 6% by weight lye bath at 120C for 90 minutes, and then washing them until they return to a neutral pH. This helps dissolve some of the waxes, lignin, etc. and increases the surface area. Just about any strong acid or base could have a similar result. You would also probably want to add a fine filler to the mixture. In modern tires, carbon black is extensively used. Medieval people would have known carbon black as lamp black, which might have given it the black color. As for the actual binder, I don't really know what it was. It could have been a hide glue, or it might have been something like boiled linseed oil. I encourage you to produce several different samples using differing formulas, so even if it is not historically accurate, it would be a proof of concept.
Thanks and some interesting stuff in there
In addition to the kinds of processing the linen can go through chemically, and the kinds of linen, is also the actual weave and lay of the fabric. Fabrics can have different properties in different directions; fabric has grains. One cloth might have a different give and body in the straight grain (parallel to the warp), cross grain (parallel to the weft), and bias grain (usually 45 degrees to the warp and the weft).
Fabric almost always has more stretch in the bias, which is why in many modern armors layers of cloth are laid 45 degrees to each other. The projectile will then not be able to travel 'with' the grain all the way through all layers. If all the grains align, the projectile will lose the most force settling into the path in the first couple layers, and the effect of the subsequent layers will be greatly reduced.
Mitigating this means that the first layer the warp will run left to right, the second layer the warp will run at 45 degrees, the third the warp will run up and down, the forth will run at 135 degrees, and the fifth starts again at step one.
It has had dramatic effects before, although not always. Some cloth has identical straight grain and cross grain properties, so it would just go back and forth between a normal lay and 45 degrees off.
@@brandonabbott9817 Very good point. Bias ply tires are the standard for that reason too. I imagine with a glue or binder of some kind and layers put on a bias, it would be much more difficult to spread apart the weave of the fabric, and the projectiles would have to tear or slice the fibers instead.
Love it! Fantastic video, looking forward to more in the series.
Had a feeling a video was just around the corner, thank you for the delivery! 🙏
ohhhhhhh i think somewhere shad just got shivers in his spine. he loves him some brigandine action!
I can't wait to see the brigandine armor test! I am so glad the more exposures of coat of plates & brigandine 'cause it's also my fav armor types especially since the community are on high interest with that type armors as of now LOL
Also definitely down with black glue gambeson & Linen armor/Linothorax for laminated fabrics armor type tests.
i have been loving your channel with the lockdown-longbow series!
I LOVE these tests. Thank you sir for taking the time to make them. Educational and entertaining. Thanks again!
Can you even move freely in that "hardened" gambeson? Or were only some parts of it hardened?
That's likely how joints and seams worked, like the segments of a bug's carapace.
Gambesons we’re predominantly worn to protect against slashing blows, and no doubt would offer ‘some’ protection against arrows which were effectively spent.
They would have been worn for long periods, marched in, worked in, and maybe only taken off in the evenings. The prospect of wearing a hardened gambeson with no flexibility is ridiculous. And they don’t even protect against arrows at short distance - as clearly demonstrated.
I am going to guess that it is shaped like metal plate armor.
it would have been like a surcoat, armless with a sectioned skit or something.
@starshipeleven one could double it up. A soft one under and a hardened one, like a breastplate, over.
Wonderful work as always Tod, I have a request if you've the time. You've shown lighter bows before and use the crossbow to replicate a heavy war bow, would it be possible to squeeze in some tests with the lighter poundage bows as well? Most of us assumed the longbow would go through gambeson like a knife through butter, which it did, but how would lighter poundage bows fair against it? If that is possible, perhaps some different ranges for them as well? I know you did a range video before and it was marvelous, but I'm extremely curious to see how the different armor types hold up against different poundage at longer distance. I'm certain just about everyone here would love to watch those just as well.
Regardless keep up the marvelous work, you're contributing greatly to the understanding of medieval warfare and we're all incredibly grateful for it.
I would love to, but I just don't have the time
@@tods_workshop Fair enough. Still appreciate what you've done so far.
Another great video, Tod. Thank you for the experimental archaeology!
Fantastic delivery. Very informative without heavy bias, and concise. Thank-you.
Please keep these videos coming. Historically, would wearers of gambesons also have used shields? Perhaps they depended upon shields for defence against arrows?
And bring on the brigandine! Does it make a difference if the pieces of plate are horizontal or vertical? Or is that the differnce between brigandine and a coat of plates?
most of the time yes, there are exceptions but these are typically archers, slingers and javlinmen (ie missile troops)
the only lightly armoured melee troops without shields that i know of (off the top of my head) that weren't ranged troops or pikemen were french Brigans, who wore brigandines (twith lightly armoured being relative)
Often they didn't wear shields because pole weapons were so useful. But keep in mind that most armies of that region and time period didn't use many archers; England was a highly unusual for its reliance on soldiers who weren't heavy cavalry or levies with basic protective gear and a polearm.
I believe they also rely on scouts. If you heard your next mission enemies are heavily war bows equipped, you will go to your caravan and pull out the shields.
@@alexanderflack566 I bet they have armory caravan to store backup equipments, just in case situation changes.
@@chengkuoklee5734 The problem is that you can't effectively use a polearm with a shield, and on a medieval battlefield, knights were often the most dangerous threat. Besides, the foot soldiers were usually relatively poor, so a second set of equipment was likely outside the realm of possibility for them. They usually did alright if the opposing army had few archers or heavy crossbows, or if the knights on their side could neutralize the missile troops in the opposing army quickly, but they performed poorly against massed archery otherwise.
+1 pierce armor is always good
Yes please do anything and everything I love your videos. You are doing things Ive always wanted to do
I love that you never misrepresent your own level of knowledge on topics.
Imagine wearing 32 t-shirts and going to war. That's gambeson. Also helps in the cold.
"There is nothing to get excited about"
You're shooting a crossbow at armour, that alone is exciting.
Also Todd you mention the crossbow is equal to 160 lbs longbow. What would a lesser bow, say 100 lbs change the results?
Another fine quality video, thank you.
I just smile every time these vids show on my new vid feed, especially when having a rough mental day.
I am just imagining a 13th century version of Tod (we will call him Sir Todleth) who is hanging about the war camps and hounding the scribes to be more specific.
"Blacken in the usual way- that sound alright to you, Sir?"
"No no no no- that's bollocks. What sort of infuriating directions and recipes are you trying to preserve? Write down the proper process, damnit! Do you know how long it took me to figure out the boiled leather recipe we got from Rome!?"
Honestly, I'm sure that WAS a pain at the time to. Then again, to some extent it was probably intentional, considering how many recipe books or manuscripts are written in assorted cyphers or codes with a 'to those who know, this will make sense, but to most people, it'll just be random statements'. That habit to protect trade secrets makes me worry to some extent when people are reconstructing things from manuscripts...how often are we falling into the traps left behind intentionally to mislead?
Oh No! Looks like the title wore a gambeson, while being shot at with a longbow😱
Excited for the next one. Would love to see ur blackened gambason idea too.
Great test Tod. This kind of video is very insightful. Your crossbow has a super satisfying click when you pull the string.
The fact that it is a lot harder and stiffer sound to me like a huge improvemend to blund force trikes.
Maybe the wine and salt treatmend has more to do with that.
Especially when you consider that it was worn under flexible mail
Yep, that's what I was thinking too. Being harder wouldn't necessarily improve resistance to piercing since the armor has less "give" and thus less likely to move under the impact and cause the point to veer off course before penetrating
"lot harder and stiffer sound to me like a huge improvemend to blund force trikes." No that's the opposite Blunt force strikes work better against stiffer and harder targets this is why you see maces and warhammers and poleaxs used by knights and nobility because those weapons are meant to hurt people in plate so a stiffer armor is worse because it gives in less meaning more force goes into the body doing more harm
@@sirsteam181 I have to disagree with that.
at first the same force is aplyed to the body in both cases. the diference is in how the blow is tranceferd to the body. If a meterial is able to transfer the forse over a larger area it means that the impact force at every single point is lower. simlpy force / area.
The main reason that they went over to blunt when encountering plate is bc it is so well protected agains swords that slicing was just useless. And the reason that I think the dit it for bliund is that weather youre mail stops a strike or trust of a spear sword or what ever its going to still deliver all that kenetic engergy to youre body in the form of blunt foce. Even a wooden stick/ staf can break bones and a bit of protection against that would be nice I would think.
@@t837qvhsdKJ Here's the thing though having it harder and stiffer means there is more force applied for the strikes isn't cushioned and as such all the force is applied at once and as such wouldn't be as good against blunt as a normal gambeson would for a normal gambeson allows the blow to slow down, lowering the force.
Yes and no look at body armor. a Kevlar vest get hit with a 12g slug you will have broken ribs andso and internal bleeding but do the same thing with plat varied armor and you're a oké
Just because the force is distributed
Yes deforming material uses Energie but a layer of gamers on on its own Wil not do the job + that Al that deformation is again your body the deformation that you puch in to the gamberson will also be bushed in to you.
Kevlar vast as example.
The Gambeson hardening comes automatically over the time while its worn. Sweating on the battlefield (running away) for the salt, wine in huge amounts afterwards in the taverna :)
This was a thought i had when I found the passage, that the author was suggesting Conrad de Montferrat was a drunkard etc. I had an ancient Greek language specialist look at the original text and they told me the language is all very matter-of-fact, and such poetic imagery was not very likely.
Tod's vids is what keeps me going!
Always the very best of content!
Also that tease for the next video!
I'd love to see linothorax tested!
I second that!
Thats going to be difficult because we don't know how linothoraxes were built.
BloodyPine There seem to be 2 ideas on that.
Either leather or linen glued together, almost like a modern bullet proof vest.
I made a linothorax using 10 layers or thick linen. With modern white glue as the substance holding it together. The glue hardens the linen and results in an incredibly strong armor. At least to sword or axe blows.
@@Rokaize In truth. Linothorax was not likely glued as there is no basis for such construction. It was either twined or quilt.
Leather tube-and-yokes were a thing on their own, they are called Spolas.
@@bloodypine22 There is a possibility it was glued, though, especially since recreations made using period-correct glue do perform better.
About the glue: There are medieval Czech (Bohemian) texts refering to "Suknice smolené" meaning "Coats (hardened) with resin".
There is a lot of debate on how you can use resin on a coat, but maybe it can be used for a glue
Do you have the source of these passages?
I've made resined linen off a 15c example. It is a lot of work and quite expensive
@@JessFinleySwords I pointed Tod in your direction for the blackening/tarring aspect of things. I hope he'll get into the later period types at some point.
@@deadextra thanks! I have some preliminary results from the resin experiment here: vimeo.com/447971042
@@JessFinleySwords Oh yes, I have been following your work. If anything it would be more appropriate to test against this simulation of a bow than the salt+wine from the late 12th century. I look forward to see how it develops!
This channel is a gem, so glad I found it.
love the series and information with it
Have you come across Professor Aldrete's historical reconstructions? There's a video in this link as well as a description: jhupress.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/unraveling-the-linothorax-mystery-or-how-linen-armor-came-to-dominate-our-lives/
_"Fifteen layers with rabbit glue could not be bent nor cut with anything less than an electric saw"_
From the comments: _"We found that rubbing a block of beeswax over all sides of the armor provided nice waterproofing. When you wear it for a couple hours, your own body heat softens the glue a bit and makes it conform to your body shape, so it is much more comfortable to wear than rigid types of armor."_
My post above brings out this point:
Is the type of "arms race" we are looking at here realistic?
Whenever an attacking weapon is made, a defensive means has to be found to protect against it. The coat of mail with a gambeson was the standard type of armour which protected the soldiers pretty much from the Bronze Age up to the battle of Agincourt and particularly during the dark ages and the Norman period. The shield carried by the warrior was at that time enough to give them protection against missiles, the rest against swords, and also the arrows as they were then shot. The is a case to be made that it is the development of the longbow that causes metal plate armour to be developed, and we have already seen Tod making attempts to fire arrows through a piece of a breast plate with far less success than this gambeson. Therefore I think we should be surprised if this big step up in defensive armour was not provoked by the types of weapon that we are seeing here. However I have another problem, which is the power of the bow that Todd is using. If it is to be a realistic experiment, then he should use a very much less powerful bow in order to see whether the types of bows used in the 8th to 12th centuries, for instance, were capable of penetrating a shield plus mail plus gambeson arrangement.
In summary: if it was the longbow that obsoleted the mail/gambeson type armour, it would be surprising if it did not defeat this armour every time.
Thanks and interesting
@@jeremywilliams5107 There certainly an race to get bow poundage up to the height's we see in military bows.
Hunting bows never have the need for more then 80-90 lb.
You can see how crossbows adapt to pull such large loads.
Shadiversity is currently thinking of reasons why this doesn't disprove how the gambeson was the best armor ever.
Very keen to see the brigandine tests, excellent work as always.
I love your videos like the favourite teacher at school, spiking interest and capturing your attention while time flies by. 👍
So Todd, I see you mentioned the whole "greeks used glue with their layered linen armor" thing. Would you please tell me what sources are the evidence for that? I know people take this phenomena for granted often times, and I know there are universities who have tried making "greek style" glue and linen "replicas" but I have never been able to find any primary source evidence that this was ever a thing. I am aware that we have found layered linen in bronze age Mycenaean graves, but have seen no evidence of glue being involved. And I know Alexander the Great lauded some layered linen armor when he took Babylon, also with no evidence of glue being used and it was declared exotic to him. This is a big question in historical armor and you tend to be a great source, so I would love to see your sources and evidence for Hellenistic (or any ancient) glued linen armor.
Sorry it appears that I have fallen into the trap I keep warning others about. I know this for a "fact" yet when I examine where I know it from it is just peoples chatter that I have taken to be fact, so apologies I will refer you back to those that know better than me and the most learned type comments here seem to say there is no evidence.
I think you should read Gregory S. Aldrete's book on ancient linen armor. He's pretty much the main source on it, and he is also the one that tests glued linen armor.
It's true there is no evidence, but there are also no instructions. If you were to ever do a project on this or talk about it, you would need to clarify that there is no evidence. However, it is very much worth considering and testing, and would also be pretty fun.
@@Cycad1 I have little interest in reading a book that admits upfront that there is literally no evidence for what he is dedicating his book to. Dan Howard, Alan Williams, and now Todd have and are doing plenty of linen armor testing, hell I've even done some myself.
I know quite a few other historical recreationists and experimental archaeologists as well, and most of those also agree that there is no evidence for it and it does not hold up to extensive testing well either. One such did make a glued layered linen Greek style curiass and found that the reality of using such an item over extended time, in Mediterranean style heat, fighting and otherwise exerting himself in such an item results in not only it softening and otherwise weakening over time with sweat added to the mix but also quite a messy and sticky situation not exactly conducive to historical warfare.
Again see my mention above of how Alexander the Great found a piece of linen armor quite novel when recovering one in Babylon. Also we literally have an in period source telling us they were made of leather. From Pollux's Onomastikon:
“Spolas de thorax ek dermatos, kata tous omous ephatomenos, hos Xenophon ephe ‘kai spolas anti thorakos.”
“The spolas is a thorax of leather which hangs from the shoulders, so that Xenophon says ‘and the spolas instead of the thorax”
The traditional "thorax" being made of bronze of course.
@@SchlrFtrRkMystc I didn't make it clear since I've elaborated in other comments. That's not why I'm recommending the book. Say what you will about glued linen, it doesn't matter for the context of linen vs. leather. Aldrete doesn't just talk about glued linen, he talks about the material in armor as a whole. Everything you mentioned, he addresses.
But since you have no interest in the book, I'll give you the rundown. Pollux (and later Hesychius) is author far removed in time and it isn't even clear what a spolas is. The word spolas is used to describe something worn by Libyans (I think maybe by Herodotus) in a way that doesn't sound like armor (perhaps referring to a cloak). But the main evidence is in Aristophanes' play (I think it's The Birds or something) where a nobleman orders a servant to give his spolas to a poor poet. It's very clear that spolas is likely a garment of sort. And Xenophon? Xenophon says spolas *and* thorakes. Thorakes was the general term for body armor, why would he use it twice? Although there is another quote about an arrow going through a shield and spolas that makes it sound kind of like armor, in all likelihood it was a sort of garment. But most importantly, I should drive home the point about that there being only a couple sources, Pollux being quite far removed in time and Hesychius even further.
Meanwhile, direct quotes of linen armor exist in the dozens. Aldrete spends a whole chapter discussing the references. Many are later in time, but many are contemporary. I've also heard that it was only noted because it was foreign, but there are contemporary greek sources citing greek use as well (Alcaeus, Aeneas Tacitus, etc.). Xenophon himself likely implies linen armor use. He discusses the Chalybes using plaited cords as opposed to pteryges, potentially implying that linen typically used pteryges (which could imply all of the organic armors depicted being made of linen). Like I said, the list goes on. If you want to talk about later sources, even those provide some insight due to the sheer number. Even if they didn't witness its use, the Romans generally appear to believe the linen armor was the common armor of times before.
I've seen the original Roman Army talk thread where they all converted to leather, it was bonkers. All it took was one lousy source on it (Pollux), and they were forever bound to the idea. It's so bizarre. Among most all scholars, due to the very large number of references.
And the quality of information just keeps on getting better and better the deeper down the rabbit hole we go.
I always watch Tod's great videos before going to war. It helps me select the best armor and I am still alive! Thanks for saving lives Tod!
Very good, as always!! pls. keep going.
Really great work!!! Very interested to see the outcome. Glue hardened!! I didn’t know that one!
Looking forward to the brigandine video.. keep up the amazing work Tod!
LOVE YOUR VIDEOS!!!
love the impact sounds
That introduction of the logo was *very* slick!
your videos have answered so many questions I had about the quality of armor pieces and showed me things I never knew, even though I thought I was well versed in the various forms of armor. Thank you so much for these videos!
Glad I could help!
When your done you should try the brigandine w/the gambeson underneath. A lot of people think of that as common man-at-arms armour, and it may just of been. Great video as always, loving your lockdown longbow series of videos, much love from Northumbria.
I love the history and the science in your videos. The experimentation is awesome to watch and you explain things in a very precise yet understandable way.
But the best part has to be the sound of those arrows whistling through the air. Something so oddly satisfying about that lol
Brilliantly done. I am absolutely glued to my screen. Living history and science combined. I cant wait for the follow ups.
Thanks
I for one would love to see your various processes for hardening gambeson.
You are getting very good at leaving us wanting more. I remember watching a video on a presentation of linen as protection and one of the points brought up was that untreated linen fiber is very waxy and a bit tougher than the treated linen we get these days. The point the presenter was trying to make was he thought gambesons and earlier types of linen protection used the more raw linen fiber to make armour.
Man, I am loving this series. Looking forward to the brigidine test.
You are doing a great job a testing different materials and craft methods. I would like to suggest that once you have a good collection to test them in different ways. For example shooting them in an angle or against swords and spears.
Wow I can't wait for the blackened one!
Thanks for the great video series! It has inspired me to make some war bolts for experimenting with my crude crossbow. I was surprised at the penetrating power the short bodkin had in my initial testing, previously I'd only used conical sharpened points of smaller diameter.
Round is not the way to go! well done
Tod's channel is gonna be among the top ones for game dev research
I love this series. So much science being done. And the comments always provide so many suggestions and information that Tod then churns into his process to give us more science!
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Science! I'm blinded with it!
Content unlike anything one can find on the Internet. Well done Tod.
One thing to remember, the depth of penetration during the test is going to be less than it would be on the person wearing the gambison as the body offers resistance as well. It may be that the difference the hardened gambison makes is sufficient when added to the body's resistance.
Very interesting 🧐 would love to see some black linen tests! Also would love to see these same armor tested against bladed weapons
I think it would be interesting to shoot at them at an angle...especially the harder one is probably more efficient to let the arrows glance off
Thanks for these great vids. Love them. What I would like to see, is gambeson not hard up against a backing like that, but hanging and loose around a figure. Gives the gamebson a chance to give a little and catch the projectile, I think, possibly.
Really looking forward to the brigandine tests!
I definitely want to see the black linen test after this!.
One thing that interests me is the fact that for the needle bodkin against the hardened gambeson, the shaft itself didn't appear to penetrate as much as the type 16 and the m2, but the overall length and pointyness of the head meant it still got an extra mm over them.
I've no idea what this shows, if indeed it shows anything, but I think it's interesting!
man these teasers are top tier!
This is fantastic. After the longbow (lock down) you should test other ranged weapons used in ancient or medieval times
Great video again :)
I really find topics like this very interesting.
I know it will be much more work, but for proper testing to see how well different types of armor do against arrows, I think you should make a breast piece that is pointed like a bird chest to create an angle of the armor that the arrow needs to penetrate.
This can give totally different results than when you just shoot the arrows at a flat plate.
Then you might experience a much bigger difference between common fabric armor and fabric armor soaked in vine and salt.
I also would very much like to see a test with the black fabric armor.
Tod's videos are perfect when waiting for a game in For Honor, thank you Tod
I'm quite looking forward to the blackened gambeson, as well as seeing it in combination with leather, riveted mail, and whatever other combinations are possible.
I almost never do this but I dropped a like before watching cuz I already know you are THE MAN when it comes to arrow tests, nobody better or even as good.
Thank you
@@tods_workshop hey you deserve it, Man
I'd loce to see a video on the glue and linen armor like you suggested! Im currently working on the ancient side of it following the specs in Gregory Aldrete's "Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor" and would love to see your thoughts on the process!
In my opinion, the Lockdown Longbow is the best content on this channel, primarily because your enthusiasm and enjoyment from this series is palpable and it comes across, Tod. It makes me happy knowing we still have so many things to test!
Glad you enjoy it!
I love the lockdown longbow series. I’ve been using your data as a basis for a more realistic damage system for a D&D game I’ve been working on. Please keep making more of these they’re fantastic!!
Be careful with that. You might just end up bogging down combat.
Dylan D. Yeah that’s been something i’m keeping in mind, the balance between realism and expediency. Cause y’know how much fun it would be to wait 3 minutes every time the DM had to calculate a hit.
A gambeson was put under the chain mail, its task was to absorb the energy of the blow and protect the body from crushing injuries, which was not defended by the flexible armor of the chain mail. So it hardly protect from stab and piercing injuries, like arrows.
It could be put either under or over, if it was heavy it went over. Lighter gambesons and foundation garments were worn under.
I remember reading somewhere, the Spartans making breastplates from linen layered with hide glue. It was said it was somewhat like a turtle shell, and would stop arrows.
Would like to see how distance affected this type of armour. Shooting flat pretty much point blank with modern steel must make a difference? Love your vids, keep them coming Tod!
Enjoyed your video and I gave it a Thumbs Up
Love your channel, you are true to the materials used and looks like you do the best possible to present armor as it was recorded in history, with the materials provided.
I have one constructive criticism about the weapon you use to test them, in a historical context.
Even though you use different types of arrow heads in your tests, and they are also true to their length (otherwise they would be bolts), I'm sure that the crossbow you use fires them at a speed considerably higher than they would be if shot from an ancient era or medieval bow. Not only you get a higher poundage from a crossbow, but even if you'd lower the pull to get the same poundage that an average European longbow would have, the question of how much speed it gives the arrow also takes into account the size and curvature of the wood being "unflexed" and also it's material.
For example, a shortbow of 100 pound pull would fire their arrows slightly slower than a 100 pound longbow, because the arrows is pushed for the same poundage for a moment longer on the later. Also the speed in which the material "unflex" (goes back to it's original position) varies from materials, hence why compound bows were stronger. The modern materials we use on crossbows today are also purposefully better at that - they unflex faster than compound wooden crossbows.
Some of these differences are slight, while others are big. The thing is, even the light differences matter on the conclusion of how an armor was good for its era, if the arrow is piercing a good amount on your test, but would maybe just pierce the tip when fired from a "historical-style" bow (or wouldn't even penetrate at all if the difference in projectile speed is significant).
I suggest you use a wooden bow made with historical specifications, to test these armors, at least when you intent to draw a conclusion in historical context.
Well neat the leather gambeson combo would be awesome.