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Controlled or Push Feed ~ A fair look at an old debate
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- čas přidán 14. 08. 2024
- Bolt action rifle designs vary little in their practical operation, but the issue of the Mauser style controlled feed versus modern push feed bolts leaves many folks wondering what's best. Here, I examine as fairly as I can the historical implications behind each, and how they differ in manufacturing cost, aesthetics, mechanics, reliability, and how one fundamentally important difference may even impact accuracy.
The ONLY reason to have a push feed action for hunting is price, period. They can however be made very, very accurate. I occasionally hunt buffalo & other heavy game & you won't catch me without a Mauser style controlled feed action - it's not just about the feed, that big claw extractor has no problem extracting hot loaded cases on a hot day. And those little extractors & spring loaded plunger ejectors on push feed actions have no place in my world. Respect from Zimbabwe 🇿🇼🇿🇼🇿🇼🇿🇼
controlled feed is stronger extraction
push feed is higher feed reliability. also necessary for double stack mags
Im a Mauser Action guy , I fell in love with control feed and the older style in my late teens , used a Lee Enfield 303 , in my very early days of deer hunting , laid my hands on a Mauser 98 in when turned 20 and never looked back , I've bought and sold many very nice push feed rifles , IMHO Mauser Style Actions , control feed actions are very reliable and I've never had a loading or ejection issue . Guess I'm just a old school guy now at 52 , old saying go what what you feel works for you and comfortable with .
I’m a sucker for elegant, precise, and complex machining.
It's like the AK vs AR argument. One is relatively easy to swap parts while the other is built to an exacting standard, both have strict tolerances. The AR represents what can be done quick and work, while the AK represents what will work but requires more time and care to produce.
That makes two of us!
Milled or forged?
@@axelsprangare2579 MILLED!
As some of my buddies that did return from Vietnam used to say , if we found an
AK we would rather use it !
Wow, I've known about these differences for years, but thought of them as being differences in reliability only (dangerous game and such). Thank you for helping me understand the accuracy angle as well. It really makes me appreciate my '03 Springfield even more, which is the only controlled-feed rifle I own at the moment. God Bless you sir, we really appreciate the knowledge you've gained over the years.
Another advantage to a control feed bolt is positive case extraction. I have had problems in the past with cheap ammo and brass locking in the chamber after firing, only to have to find a dowel long and narrow enough to fit down the bore to tap it out. Push feed extractors can have a nasty habit of jumping the rim of the case if their spring gets bad or in the case of over-pressure, when trying to extract. That reason alone was enough for me to pony up for a Model 70 Winchester. Never had that problem since.
It came as no surprise to me that this would be the best video on the subject I've seen.
Whenever I need to check on the accuracy of other gun videos, I check to see what the grumpy old Fudd has to say about it. He doesn’t teach anything that he doesn’t have a complete understanding of.
I was hunting with an old mouser one time and I had a light primer strike. The controlled ejection allowed me to easily place the cartridge in my hand without it being thrown and hitting the floor of my hunting blind. It allowed me to make a second shot without the deer knowing that I was there.
i do that every shot while target shooting with a push feed remington 700
Missed a 14 point buck with a savage in that exact same situation. Bought a Model 70 right afterwards.
Do Mx. mzcnmm.
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I own both. My custom built Remington 700 is a tack driver as is my Winchester classic model 70 controlled feed. His insight into both is spot on.
I'm so glad Benny doesn't know about his diagnosis... I conversed with a couple of people with such a predicament. And what interesting is the one who went later(about 30 years later) brought me to the one who went first. I guess, the experience of both encounters gives me a lot to think about for the rest of my life. I am sorry sir if I am not making much sense, my first language is Russian, but our Catholic faith is universal, right? And I admire the fact that during this trial your have courage and clarity of mind to present your wisdom!
Benny is still doing very well, thanks be to God.
Great video. I absolutely love my new Winchester Model 70 feather weight it just speaks of tradition. Mauser action, walnut stock, polished blue steel and jeweled bolt.
Let’s hope Benny somehow makes a full recovery he’s an amazing dog and looks like he’s probably your best friend.
Thank you for explaining differences between controlled feed vs push feed mechanisms. I am more familiar with Mauser controlled feed actions. You answered my questions about the purpose of the plunger on push feed actions.
Awesome teaching and informative... love it when a Master teacher can provide enough facts and logic to force you to think 🤔. The best on CZcams. Thoughts and prayers, God Bless.
Great video, as always!
Apparently Benny has been the recipient of a massive amount of prayers and positive thoughts. So glad to hear that he's feeling better. He'll stay in my family's prayers and thoughts.
God Bless!
Well thought out explanation and demonstration. I like the practical, real-world evaluation of both designs. Thinking of both you and your wife, and may Benny continue to show improvement!
Mauser/Manlicher style controlled feed is superb. When it comes to reliability, no compromises should be allowed.
So glad to hear the good news about Benny. You've been in our prayers. I recently had the pleasure of shooting a friends circa 1939 Griffin & Howe 30-06- a magnificent rifle built off a Mauser 98 action. The thing I discovered is that the claw will not grab a round hand-fed into the action, as us bench shooters often do; the rounds had to be fed into the magazine first in order to properly engage the bolt. Don't know if this only applies to these particular action or all CRF's in general(?)...
Controlled feed bolts are generally not made to feed directly. Most claws are bevelled to permit emergency loading, by forcibly closing the bolt. If the claw is bevelled, it will load forcibly, but it's strictly an emergency accommodation, as with a charging enemy or bear, and can eventually cause damage. Thank you for your prayers!
Thanks for the reply. I'd buy a Model 70 tomorrow if I wasn't a southpaw. Thankfully Tikka makes lefties so life ain't so bad after all! God Bless.
@@billsmithers1365 Hello. A Tikka (From Finland) is a PUSH-feed bolt-action rifle as is its cousin the Sako and the Remington 700 and most Bolt-actions made in the U.S.. I have owned 3 Remington 700's and a Sako AV and a Savage 110, all had feeding and extraction problems. I sold them all.
BTW --- If you are a Southpaw, you might want to look at / try a Lever-Action rifle.
Another fantastic and deeply informative video. Thank you again for taking the time and sharing your knowledge. I found the comparison on concentricity to be very interesting and a talking point I’ve not yet heard before. I find I’m always learning something new here. Also, we’re very happy to hear that Benny has had a couple of good days. We hope those days keep coming. God bless. Cheers.
I have watched several of your videos and I always learn something and I've been hunting all my life of 61 years, thank you!
I own and shoot both bolt versions in rifles dating from current production back nearly 100 years. The variation in accuracy performance that I find is generally traceable directly back to me. Love 'em all.
Good to hear Benny is holding his own. Having a Golden Retriever as part of our family, and a history with several others through the years, I pray good news continues.
The Remington 700 extractor can't really be compared to the AR extractor or the Sako extractor. I've had Remington extractors fail and had to replace them. There are specialty shops that will modify the Remington extractors and replace them with sako type extractors. You did an excellent job explaining the pro's and Con's. I hunt dangerous game in Alaska and have relied on the control round feeding for 5 decades with no regrets.
Sako 85 Rifles are Controlled Round Feed.
My first generation Ruger 77 was a push feed action with a Mauser style claw extractor
Another excellent video, thanks! I'm embarrassed to say I never actually knew exactly how these bolts worked till now. Your explanation was very clear. Also, that's really great news about Benny! Thanks so much for letting us know. You all continue to be in my prayers and thoughts. All the best!
Another wonderful video. Quiet, steady, full of nothing but straightforward wisdom backed by years of experience. Thank you once again with best wishes from Australia.
agreed. but it has been decades more than years in this case . tremendous.
I like your argument about the concentricity offered by the CRF bolt. I’ve heard this argument before, but the other way around. Went something like “how can a CRF be accurate with a 1/4 of the rim being grabbed by the huge ejector?” I had the argument you made about the plunger, but it was their sandbox and I was kicked out.
I think the argument about the plunger is really a non starter...IF the chamber is tight, the brass isn't going to deflect very much...If it's a custom handload, not at all. I've owned many of both types, I prefer the CRF on hunting guns, Push feed on target rifles. But, it's not written in stone, both can fit either bill just fine.
Makes me appreciate some the oldest pieces in my collection. Seems there was a "golden age" previous to the 50s/60s and cost cutting. Dual extractors, on bolts. Rollers in shot gun slide actions. "Floating" chamber rimfire semi-autos that will feed shorts, longs, long rifles with equal aplomb...
PS, God bless Benny and all bird dogs for that matter...
The cost cutting was a necessary evil that kept companies like Winchester from folding as labor costs skyrocketed. Savage could no longer compete with their Model 99.
My Ithaca 12 gage pump has rolled bearing, made in 1936 I think.
Actually rifle accuracy hasn't really improved from way back before 1900. In the 1890's we had reached that summit.
I love the Mauser design. My VZ 24 sporterized chambered in .243 Winchester is a dream to shoot and works flawlessly.
So happy to spend time with you again. Thank you for sharing this discussion; I learned a lot and am of course very pleased to know that Benny has had some good days. Thinking of you all for sure.
Very good explanation on push feed vs. control feed. I personally favor the control feed. I have never had feeding problems on my Remington 700 in 300 WinMag but had case ejection problems, twice. On both occasions, not on the same day, the extractor in the bolt didn't grab enough brass rim and tore part of the brass rim off while I forcefully pulled the bolt back and the case was stuck in the chamber. I used a cleaning rod inserted from the muzzle to tap the case out. I think the extractor in the Remington dosen't grab enough of the brass rim.
it sounds like a dirty chamber
You are not alone. Many people have had feeding and extraction problems with the Remington m700. They use a cheapo little spring thing instead of a claw extractor.
This is an excellent explanation of the differences in type of bolt design
You hit the nail on the head 9:50. While fast cycling a round in a tense situation with game, my gun "double charged" a round as you say, in a Sa-- .300 win mag. I sold it.
I LOVE ALL YOUR videos. You remind me of a gentleman that frequented the same gun range as I did back in the 90's, here in Missouri. He taught me and others ALOT. He was a gun collector and I admired him imensly. He would tell you the factual truth and debunk ALOT of B.S. that's out there. Like having to break in a new rifle. He also really gave hell to people who were unsafe and careless. Thank you and keep the videos coming. I play your videos while I'm working. Makes a bad day go good! Please do a video on the 8 mm Remington Magnum. Thanks Again!
Subscribed sir. Best explanation I've heard of these variances by far.
Excellent Video! Thanks! Your comparison clearly demonstrates my preference for Paul Mauser's engineering genius. I love my CZs as well as my old K98 style Carl Gustav Mauser chambered in 6.5x55 SE.
The Carl Gustaf mauser is the 96 not the 98. The 96 is cock on close and has a more risky construktion.
Great explanation and as always I learned something. I have 2 model 70’s. One classic control feed and one push feed. Both operate flawlessly.
I've wanted a .300 winchester magnum for awhile. So, I came across an absolutely beautiful winchester model 70 made in 1965. Near mint condition. I've commented on other channels and all I hear is "it's junk" or " I wouldn't buy it"! Well I bought it and she is a beaute! Came with a leopold 3 to 9 variable x2. Haven't shot it yet but glad to hear yours operates flawlessly. The icing on the cake is it was made the same year I was born!!! Lol
Sorry , the push feed Win model 70 is junk. Cheap but junk.
@@redtobertshateshandles ridiculous unqualified statement.
Interesting video as usual! I have both types of actions and like them all. Interestingly I also have a Sako AV (in .270 Winchester) which has the Sako extractor with a blade ejector which eliminates the plunger putting side pressure on the cartridge and allows for a relaxed cartridge position in the chamber. I like that one too. 😄 This bolt configuration seems
like a sensible design. I wonder why more manufacturers haven't produced this type of bolt? I'm sure there are some out there I may not be aware of.
Yes, Sako's solution, though it doesn't provide controlled feed, offers much greater extraction security, simplicity, and lightness, without pressure on the cartridge.
I've had both types over 65 years and you explain them well. I found a problem with a Remington 700 on an elk hunt 35 years ago. Arriving back in camp for lunch opening day a fellow camped nearby was despondent. "They sold me the wrong ammo!" I looked at his box of Rem 7mm Mag ammo and it looked ok. I looked at his shiny new Remington 700 BDL and it was stamped for 7mm Rem Mag. I dropped a round in, went to close the bolt and it wouldn't close. I took the bolt out, looked down the barrel and the looked at the bolt face. The extractor wouldn't move and there was rust in the bolt face. The fellow had bought the rifle 2 months before and never fired it. The retailer had only charged him $10 extra to use a bore sight collimator to "sight in" his rifle. This fellow paid out of state license fees, taken time off work, driven 1,000 miles to Colorado and stuck his truck into a snowbank for nothing. I showed him the problem, told him where he could find a gunsmith a couple hours away. We pulled his truck out and got him headed down the mountain. That is the only failure to feed I have ever seen in any bolt gun in 65 years. It was a Model 700, but I ascribe it to operator ignorance and retailer negligence, not a design or manufacturing problem. The guy never showed back up at the campground. Maybe he went back to California. I got a very nice cow elk the next day with my push feed Sako .308.
Professor once again, you taught me a detail that I was completely ignorant of. I am now a more enlightened gun owner which I now realize that all of my rifles have controlled feed bolts. LOL. Also, I know first hand that a dog is not only a man's best friend but family. My prayers go out to Benny.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. GREAT news about Benny. Almost 4 enjoy your time together.
GunBlue, you and Bennie are in my thoughts and prayers. I know something about brittanys. I've raised and trained several that have won field trials at the national level. My once in a "lifetime" dog was Archie. He was a true gundog. He tolerated me, but he lived to hunt quail and pheasant. I can tell Bennie absolutely loves you and vice versa. At 12 years Archie suddenly had a problem where he started getting down and couldn't get back up. It was then I made one of the hardest decisions in my life. Holding Archie in my arms my vet (a bird hunter) sent Arch to Quail Heaven in a most humane way. I don't mind telling you I cried like a baby. It was what Archie would have wanted😞
I love this channel. I have three Mauser actions and nine push feed actions (four push feed bolt guns and of course my semi automatics). Mauser actions are beautiful pieces of engineering BUT, please keep in mind that with a push feed you can drop a cartridge into the chamber or onto the top of the mag follower and just close the bolt normally, but with a controlled feed action the bolt can't slip around the around the rim of the cartridge from the rear without severe damage to the cartridge rim and a lot of scary bolt closing force. I should say that not all controlled feed actions are this way but all of mine are. The controlled feed bolt must be fed from the bottom, meaning that the round must 'slip into' the bolt from the magazine but the push fed round can just be shoved in to the chamber or dropped onto the top of the magazine follower and the bolt can snap around the cartridge once driven home. That is why you should carry a bolt extractor with you to the field on a controlled feed action, because once a round gets shoved into the chamber without being attached to the bolt, (and yeah that happens, like in a double feed ) you often cannot close the bolt around the cartridge at all and extract it back out. And until you do, your rifle is down. In a DG situation that might really matter. My Mausers have to be fed from the magazine, period. My push feeds don't care. Although there are a lot great things about controlled feed actions there is this one downside you have to keep in mind. On accuracy, two of my push feeds happen to be my most accurate guns but they are modern Howa manufacture so that really explains the accuracy thing. Sorry for the long post.
you are absolutely right-plus the fact that when you have a three round magazine with a control feed you have a three round rifle-with a push feed you have a four round rifle-a 25% increase plus the fact you stated that after you shoot all of your rounds you can simply drop an additional round in the chamber and close the bolt-something you cant do with control feed so in a dangerous encounter you would have 2 more rounds-a 40% increase in fire power
This discussion always brings to mind a hunter tripping and falling onto his side (Or being knocked down) during a charge by a Daga Boy or lion and what effect, if any, gravity would have on chambering a round with a push-feed if the rifle had to be shouldered sideways instead of vertical. I have both but can never remember to experiment. Maybe tomorrow.
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge with us viewers. We are happy that Benny has improved. Your pet has been fortunate to be loved by your fine family. May God bless you.
Great description of bolts and good news about Benny . Hope he continues to do well .
A really great opportunity to learn the advantages on each side of these designs.
I never had a controlled feed (Mauser) type bolt until just recently. I really did not know anything about them. Well I do now and the Mauser type action is superior to my mind. So often, if bench shooting and you try to ease the spent case out so it doesn't go shooting 5 feet away ( into the dirt in my case ) the push feed bolt will often fumble the ejection and drop the case back into the action. Never happens with my Model 70. As to whether or not the slight angling of a cartridge as it is pushed into the chamber by a push feed bolt .... I'm skeptical. But it makers sense that controlled feed obviating this could be a benefit.
The only problems feeding I've had in the push feed's have been with the short fat magnum's. I've always had to work on them to get them to feed reliably. Glad to hear about Benny. He is in my prayer's and I hope he continues to do well.
Remingtons three rings of steel makes me think of what a gun writer wrote about modern affordable "cheap" rifles and the hype manufacturers put into them " If you can't sell quality wrap it in bologna and sell the bologna ".
@PETER SWEET This is a channel that sharea ideas and opinions, not vulgar
Insults.
@@rickmansberger4136 I agree Rick.
PETER SWEET please show some maturity and be respectful. I hunt with a Rem700 in 300 RUM. Love the 700 because it comes left handed!
Coming back to this video, entertaining and educational at the same time. It reminds me why I love my Boer War Mauser, ‘with God and with Mauser,’ as they used to say. And God bless you and yours and of course Benny!
Great video! I hope Benny is well.
The other Advantages/disadvantages I noted is that:
The controlled feed requires the rounds to be loaded in the mag and picked up and stripped from the magazine. The push feed bolt allows you to toss a round in the action and close the bolt.
The other thing I noticed is with the controlled feed is if you don’t cycle the bolt all the way to the rear. You can tilt the case out manually by hand to retain the cases.
I've had at least four Remington 700s, Savage 110, Ruger 77 and several other push feed actions. Only one, a Rem 700 .222 failed to extract the spent case. It happened frequently and I traded it for something else. While I prefer a controlled feed action, at this point in my life it's not a deal breaker. As I remember, there was a gunsmith who, with some machining, installed AR type extractors in Rem 700's. He must have thought the Remington design needed improvement.
Ruger M77 MK2 and Hawkeye are controlled feed.
@@RickNethery Yes, and I purchased my M77 in 1975. It was a push feed action, despite the Mauser-type claw extractor.
@@georgelewis7154 You're correct, those early 77s had a spring loaded plunger edjector and the safety only blocked the trigger and not the striker.
I’ve had both types, and I prefer the controlled round feed action. I’ve never had one fail to extract, which I can’t say about the push feed that I owned. Paul Mauser’s design was and still is one of the best.
When Benny gets to feeling better would be time for next Brittany. I always want my next dog to spend as much time possible with the experienced dog. Old dog will show younger the ropes. Have the talk. Seams always makes a better dog when older teaches younger how to act what's acceptable behavior,what's expected. I guess we're all that way. Best wishes to you an yours.
I have done the same but in Benny's case a new dog may just add unwanted stress.
i agree. but there is the whole emotional investment too. i had a big rotty lab. we taught each other hand signals. she was voice leashed. no leash unless in a city. one day the neighbors dog was poopin' in my dads yard. me n' daisy herded the neighbors dog. just for fun. she was a 130lbs. lover licker of a dog. neighbors dog never pooped in my dads yard again. ;)
miss my dog like crazy still.
but yeah i agree. a puppy can learn so quick off a already trained dog.
stupid canine cancer.
dogs and cats have been getting cancers at an increasing rate in the past 10 years.
lower to the ground, lick their paws, etc.
dog pound puppies and dogs are good to adopt.
always go to the local humane shelter / society first stop when looking for a dog friend.
ProthoPectore canine cancers are up with the use of 24D. The chemical in most weed control lawn sprays.
Push feed versus control feed, 9mm versus, .45 acp, AK versus AR... blah blah blah. Seriously, another well reasoned video as we have come to expect.The best part of the video, however, was the update on the pup...no matter how that works out, we love you, mom and the pup!
Love the Central Grocery apron -best muffulleta in New Orleans! Now to the video. Excellent explanation of the differences between controlled and push feed. Thanks
I have had both types and used them on hundreds of hunting trips with the only issue was with a Ruger M77 (controlled feed) with an incorrectly made extractor claw, remedied promptly by a gunsmith.
Great news about Benny and prayers go to you all and hopefully, it will extend his life. I was told by a Vet that my last dog had a heart problem and he should be euthanased as a puppy. I talked it over with my daughter and we agreed to give him as long a life as possible and let God be the decider when it was time to part. He must have agreed as we got 12 years out of him, something I pointed out to that Vet! God bless Sir and count each day as a blessing.
I just bought a Ruger American in .308 a few months ago and I believe it's one of the best buys for the money. Is also a heck of a shooter too, even with factory ammo. By the way I watched your video about Benny. I really hated to hear that about him. It's been several years, but I still think about my old Bassett hound everyday. Prayers for you and your family, and Benny and God Bless.
Yeah, the Ruger A rifles seem like they are good rifles. I wish they would add 25-06 to their normal line up. They did a limited run of the Ruger A predator rifle in 25-06. Not a bad looking rifle, not sure Id want the threaded barrel.
I'll second that. I own three, .270WIN & .30-06SPRG All-Weather Stainless models and a .22-250REM Predator. They're all shooters so far and I haven't even got all my loads totally dialed in yet.
There was a time when Remington made the 40-X (in .308, as a 5-round repeater) for national match high-power rifle competition. Back in the mid 80's I had been using a 1950's vintage Winchester Model 70 factory built match rifle (in .30-06). The notion of a factory-built modern (more modern at any rate) match rifle was so appealing I decided I had to have one. My new 40-X was quite a nice rifle. It incorporated an adjustable match stock with a much deeper forend for the off-hand position and adjustable butt-plate. It even had a factory-cut notch for stripper-clip loading and a mounting plate for the Redfield Palma rear sight. Needless to say the accuracy right out of the box was very respectable. It was a great rifle, except for one small problem... feeding issues caused more alibis than I have ever experienced with ANY other rifle. The problem was usually the same; the nose of next round would slam into the flat breach face above the chamber. This resulted in the round becoming "bent" or the bullet being driven back into the case (and in several cases almost flush with the case mouth). True, that in the case of the national match course of fire, where in the 200-yard sitting and the 300-yard prone rapid-fire phases you have sixty seconds to get from a standing position to your shooting position and fire two strings of five rounds (and you do this twice for each phase), it is probably THE worst-case scenario test for the feeding of any bolt action rifle. It was a shame that Remington never did resolve the problem. They simply stopped making the match rifle variant and most guys who bought them (like me) converted it to a single-shot F-class gun with a prone-stock and, in a lot of cases, chambered it for 6.5-284.
I have 4 remington push feed and one winchester and have never had a jam feeding with any of them-I also own 3 control feed rifles-one is my pet 30-06 but there is not a nickles worth of difference in the feeding or extraction of any of them
@@bubblegump5410 Go to your first high-power match. There's usually one new guy with a Remington 700 who thinks they can reinvent the match rifle. You'll get a first-hand lesson in alibis.
@@leoashrae4199-roflmao there are more push feed than control feed by 50 to 1
@@bubblegump5410 Don't waste our time or bandwidth... you don't know shit about firearms.
@@leoashrae4199 show one person with a control feed match rifle-just one
Lol; "brief" description.
But I could (and do) listen for hours.
Excellent points. In a attempt to save money was the reason and it cost these companies money and businesses over time. Sad this happened but greed unfortunately has hurt this industry for quite awhile even to this day. I my self have never had issues with push feeds but being former military I clean my rifles after ever use and I clean them thoroughly. And I also use single shot rifles alot. Older Thompson center encore are some of my favorites.
I think it's too easy to assign bad motives to production and design changes. It had far more to do with our wonderful system of competitive market capitalism that changed the design. I was around when Winchester went to push feed in 1964, and I remember it very well. At that time, we did not have the vast number of companies producing guns that we have now. Aside from such relatively small players as Savage and Marlin, and some expensive domestic and foreign imports such as Weatherby and Sako, Remington and Winchester were the Chevy and Ford of the gun world. Following the monstrously heavy war effort of WWII, American gun makers found their plants to be in tough repair, with machinery and tooling in need of expensive overhaul, that cut deeply into their costs. Cost of living had risen sharply, along with labor costs, further stressing gun makers, which put Savage Arms on the skids. Remington was producing their push feed Model 700, and had a huge advertising campaign promoting their "Three Rings of Steel", suggesting that it was stronger than other guns; the only obvious "other guns" was Winchester. Winchester was situated in Hartford, Connecticut, one of the highest cost of living regions, while Remington was in low cost rural Illion, NY. Remington was making their 700 from tube steel and sandwiched recoil lugs, and bolts simply welded from three pieces, with the simplest of production efficiency that demanded very few skilled, highly paid workers. Winchester on the other hand, was wedded to the Model 70 design that required very complex machine operations and highly skilled labor for every part of their gun. While Remington was in the middle of a boom, Winchester was struggling to stay in business. We look back with a nostalgic view of Pre-64 Winchester guns, which includes also the Model 94. I was there. The truth is that while the measures kept Winchester from closing its doors, most folks in 1965 couldn't care less, and bought the Winchester without thinking twice. Survival and competition, not greed, brought push feeds.
@@GunBlue490 to a degree I’ll agree with some of your points here however there where many financial reasons these companies had to make changes to the manufacturing process or go out of business cost of labor cost of steel and other issues that they had to reworked to compete in this changing market. Some made it some did not and to this day it is ever changing and unfortunately it’s getting tougher to stay afloat in a even tougher market. And with the pressure on firearm manufacturers from the anti gun complex it make things much harder.
MR. GB90, I couldn't bring myself to watch your vid. on benny, I didn't want to start crying. Dogs are JUST LIKE HAVING A KID TO A REAL ANIMAL LOVER & I've lost a lot over the years, still cry sometimes thinking about them. I have 3 dogs now & if it wasn't for them I wouldn't be here now, also 2 cats. My wife took her own life 2 years ago while I was home with her with a handgun in our bedroom. IT STILL IS HELL FOR ME BUT THE UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FROM MY PETS KEEPS ME LIVING ON. THEY DON'T CARE IF YOUR POOR, FAT, WHATEVER, THEY GIVE YOU TRUE UNCONITIONAL LOVE NOTHING LIKE A PERSON EVER WOULD. Some people don't understand why I care so much for my dogs they just treat them as animals, some people can't believe I let them sleep with me on the bed or even let them on the furniture ? AS FAR AS I'M CONCERENED THEIR NOT TRULY ANIMAL LOVER'S IF YOU CARE MORE ABOUT YOUR FURNITURE OR INANIMATE THINGS THEN YOUR PETS. I have a poem about pets I found.6 months after your dog passes you still can't bear to talk about him. Yet some may say she was JUST A DOG ?You reach under the bed & stumble across an old toy of hers & burst into tears , YET SHE WAS JUST A DOG ?After a long & mentally draining day at work you'd give anything to be able to come home & cuddle with him. YET, IT WAS JUST A DOG ?Those who have never owned one, will never GET IT. That dog was your friend, cuddle buddy, jogging partner, playmate, anxiety reliever, alarm clock, guard dog... ect.BUT JUST A DOG RIGHT ?I PRAY FOR BENNIES HEALTH, YOU & YOUR WIFE ALSO, BECAUSE HE IS NOT JUST A DOG.
I lost my dog a couple of years ago and the video brought back to the moment when we had to let him go. Like you I couldn't watch the whole video because of the tears and pain it brought to mind. Even as I write this my eyes are filled with tears. My best wishes for Mr. GB90 and any others who are suffering through the loss of their beloved companion. Best regards.
Please Always know that the World is full of People Hurting, What the World needs is More Loving People Like yourself Friend
From Alaska; a couple of points. First, the AR bolt shown is a part of a gas system of delivery & extraction. The bolt action rifle, or for that matter any lever or a pump, requires some direct human involvement. More than just pulling a trigger. To my knowledge there are no military semi automatic weapons which use "claw" type extractors. Military semi/auto rifles don't use hand loaded ammunition either. The push feed is generally a reliable action and there are more of them manufactured today than the Mauser. They also enclose the head of the cartridge and offer better protection in a mishap which is pretty remote but usually occurring with hand loaded ammunition. The major reason for it's popularity is that it's a lot cheaper to manufacture, the bottom line and that's why there are more of them. Where the controlled round feed shines is in a dangerous game rifle. Too often there will be problems with a push feed. Not always, perhaps seldom but sooner or later you will have a problem. Hopefully it happens on the range and not staring at large Alaskan coastal brown bear or a wounded African Cape Buffalo. Which is why you still see the overwhelming number of professionals who carry DGR rifles using claw type extractors. For a whitetail hunter or pronghorn hunter I don't see much concern but it I were a dedicated black bear only hunter I might consider it too. But for any dangerous big game that can hunt back it's a wiser decision to have a Mauser styled extractor.
Another high standard video. Thank you. Wonderful news re Benny. That sweet pup has been on my mind. Sending very positive hopes and prayers his and your(s) way.
Thank you for sharing this great informative video. Your videos are so educational and help me (everyone) improve their understanding of firearms (generally) form, function, and history. Please keep them coming.
I think a while back during the early 2000s either Remington or Winchester made a hybrid controlled push feed bolt gun. It disappeared from the market. But I thought it was an awesome concept.
I've always had a preference for the "control feed" bolt.
But I do own and shoot both!
great explanation. Thank you
Really glad to hear Benny is doing better. I hear some vets are using CBD oil to fight cancer. Just an FYI but very glad to hear good news about Benny. Good luck and best wishes to you and your family. My family really enjoy seeing you with Benny and share your love of dogs. 😍🐶 Especially bird dogs.
So is it true that a Winchester model 70 with controlled feed can be directly loaded one round at a time into chamber by hand without damaging the claw extractor, because it has a taper ground on outside facing edge of the blade part of the claw that will allow it to snap over the case rim when the bolt is closed? Thanks for the video Gunblue490 😎👍
I watched a bit out of order. I was so happy to see benny doing so well this Christmas on your Christmas special. Dogs are such wonderful creatures. They truly become family, im very happy benny is doing well. Thank you for your awesome videos!
Would you do a video breaking down the history and the performance of the weatherby calibers. Part of me is simply interested. The other part just likes watching your videos. Thank you and happy new year
The cartridge can fall out of the ejection port on a push feed action tilted to the right.
I was looking for an action with a .473 bolt face to build a new 275 Rigby. I could not really afford a new action, then a barrel, and then a stock so I was able to find a Ruger M77/270. I was able to re-barrel it to .275. The bolt on the M77 is an off breed because it has a claw extractor but it is not a control feed and has a button ejector. I was disappointed but it turned out to be a wonderful rifle. I only wish I could have afforded a 1/4 rib rear sight.
Thank you for explaining and showing the differences in these bolts. I have both in various rifles. Nice information to know. Thank you and God Bless.
Great video, thanks for sharing. The control feed is probable better like everyone says but I have to say that in the 30 (I just did some math...closer to 40) years that I have owned my 'push feed' model 70 I have not to my recollection had one single problem or failure.
I've said it before.. but will say it again. I've almost stopped looking at other "facts based" shooting related channels since I found yours. There are some decent channels out there.. but they either tend to lean either way depending on their sponsors or all of a sudden start to mix subjective arguments in to an objective subject. Keep up the good work and thank you again for the (by far) most objective, "naked", truthbased shooting related channel on the tube.
Regarding Benny.. Few pets I haven't met in real life have actually touched me the way Benny have. The most balanced, well behaved dog on the tube that always makes me laugh when he decides that: "Just because you think that talking about guns is important doesn't necessarily mean that I do".
Give benny a good hug from me.
Andreas Nilsson Duelist1954 is on par with gunblue.
Thanks GunBlue! I didn’t even know there were two kinds of bolts. Thank you for teaching me something new!! God Bless.
You did mention it but I don't think you emphasized it enough. The main difference is that if you short stroke a controlled feed bolt action you won't get a double feed. Short stroke a push feed by not closing it completely and you'll get a double feed and your rifle won't fire. A controlled feed will not pick up a second round from the mag even if you short stroke it. At least the one Mauser I tested wouldn't. That's the main reason that controlled feed is recommended for dangerous game. My Sako is push feed but has an AR15 type extractor and a blade ejector. I think the controlled feed is more reliable specially in adverse conditions and is battle proven. But then the US sniper rifle for many decades was a push feed Remington action. As for extractor strength, it mostly depends and how much of the rim is engaged by the extractor. Again a win for controlled feed usually.
I could tell by your expression that Benny was doing better. Glad to hear it. If he feels up to it hope he gets to run a field a few times yet. I know that's where my griffon is happiest and I'm sure Benny would appreciate it too.
I think I did mention it in passing, but didn't go into specifics. Thank you for your input.
Great overview, love the three position safety on that bolt.
Bolt guns were used by the military; and Mauser realized that when the bolt is opened; the next cartridge feeding up could just fall out if the rifle was on its side,, or upside down. That is why he designed the controlled round feed. In battle, no matter the position of the soldier/rifle, the round is going nowhere but in the chamber. This is the greatest attribute of the design. In hunting dangerous game, the same rationale applies !!
"Ach du lieber, mein schatz"! Excellent video. It has helped me greatly to understand the difference between the two designs. The one thing that impressed me a lot was that of the excellent & generous EXTRACTOR of the controlled feed bolt. It's going to really pull a stuck case (or at least the cartridge case head!) out of the chamber better verses the "weaker design" of a push feed. This may be especially important for the African big game hunter under "critical conditions"!! But at 80 years old now, that's of little consideration for me, with one foot on the banana & the other on the banana peel!!! I still may consider hunting the "elusive giant GNAT", where I'd still prefer the controlled feed design. My prayers for "Mr. Benny" to get better, as I assume he's an (English) Springer Spaniel - I've loved two in my younger years! Very very loving dogs for sure!! Who can resist their face???!!! "Gesundheit"!
Thank you for a clear description of the 2 systems. I hope the best for Benny.
I have enjoyed all of your videos. Thank you for sharing your talents with us.
I guess my feeling is that the controlled feed is more idiot proof, my Winchester M70 is so smooth and is so free from feeding and extraction problems, even rushed or under stress, I can keep my eye on the target and cycle the bolt with complete confidence. I do find that the M70 magazine (7mm 08) is roomy (likely a benefit for reloaders who wish to use longer bullets) and I always slide my cartridges to the rear of the magazine for consistent pickup.
It’s a pleasure to learn from an experienced and articulate armorer.
I would be interested to see what the results of a scientific test, with and without the plunger and comparing full length size and neck sized brass. But the only way I can imagine doing it is with high round count groups and in an indoor range that is controlled for temperature.
Good news about Benny! I'll keep him in my prayers. Good video - Paul Mauser got it right but I own examples of both.
Hey gunblue, new subscriber and love your content. Currently deployed in Afghanistan and im having my dad purchase a new deer rifle on my behalf for me while im away. I settled on a tikka T3x. What do you think of their design, namely the recoil lug being in the stock and not on the barreled action. Thank you
I own a Tikka T3, and I used it to demonstrate epoxy bedding, which it really did not need. Their bedding system is perfect. It makes no difference where or how the recoil lug is positioned. The only thing that matters is its rigidity. Tikka is made by Sako, one of the finest rifle builders in the world, and they did a fine job with the T3, which was made even better in the T3X. Stay safe, and God's speed getting home. Thanks for your service.
@@GunBlue490 and thank you for yours sir.
Thanks for sharing about Benny. Praying for you all.
Very well explained and points a lot of us never new. Thank you SIR
My main hunting rifle has a Mauser type action. Although it's the only controlled feed I have, I have little issue with the rest of push-feed bolt actions I have, for normal use. Most of those guns however, if at an odd angle or any imperfect situation, (ie: not bench/target/slow shooting), those guns have been known to have a round freely pop out of the magazine causing an imperfect chamber alignment (have smashed a bullet tip or two) or actually have half the round sticking out of the ejection port as the bolt closes in when working the bolt too fast. I think both systems have their place but which one has supreme chambering reliability and which one came to fruition primarily for cost savings should not be disputed.
Excellent review and comparison to these different bolts.
Regret buying push feed.
Didn’t took a single shot with it yet .
but this clear simple explanation made me to feel this way.
I had a Ruger 77 Hawkeye that was controlled feed and a couple of Remington 700s and my Savage 114 and 11 which are push feed and cannot say I prefer one over the other. I have only had one rifle a Rem 700 fail to fire when I was hunting in sub-0 temperatures and that was squarely and solely my fault because I had over oiled the bolt and that oil thickened up over night outside. From that day on I have only put a very light coat on when I store my guns and none on bolt face. Lesson learned.
👍Good info here👍 Great explanations along w/ presentation.
Thanks
As I hope you know, I consider myself your biggest fan--though there is a lot of competition. My question is this: what classic gun writers' works would you recommend for reading to this 58-year old who is still a novice, but eager for knowledge? I don't know whether to look for books still in print or go the eBay route. Thank you so much.
Most or all are long out of print, but are easily found in circulation. I'd start with Jack O'Connor, Townsend Whelen, Ned H. Roberts, and Elmer Kieth. The first place I'd go is to the annual Gun Digests under the editor John T. Amber. His yearly books from the 50's through the 80's provided the most comprehensive coverage of firearms development in the post WWII era, and are a vast wealth of information by countless contributors on every gun subject, including collecting and engraving, and you will spend forever fascinated beside the fire.
@@GunBlue490 Thank you, sir, for your quick reply. I look forward to reading these.
just a note from a novice to a master great clip thank you.I have found that in real life hunting situation when a snap arises it is good to drop a round into an empty gun and shoot.that is a good thing .I cant do this with my controlled feed cz .I have to feed a round in and then work the bolt ,this wastes vital seconds on a snap shot whilst moving to a hide or ambush area..
GB490, thanks for a very informative video. Looking at the quality of ammunition used, which type of bolt - controlled feed or push-feed - is most-tolerant of irregularities in ammunition design, such as case dimension variation? Such as variations in thickness of the extractor rim on a modern "rimless" bottleneck cartridge case?
It's a non issue, because such dimensions are held within specific tolerances. I know of no ammunition that has such irregularities that is sold domestically or abroad. Both designs extract and chamber with equal reliability. Controlled feed holds, rather than pushes the cartridge in, that's all.
QUESTION ??? I know this video was completed a while ago, I love your videos they are so informational and educational! Hopefully, you review this post! I have a Savage Axis .308, along with a few other bolt-action rifles. My question relates to a stiff bolt action when reloading a round! I'm fairly schooled on firearms but I'm still your average Joe. What can I look at to figure out why it's so tight to action this? There must be something I can polish to fix this. All my other bolt guns are so smooth. I've worked this savage many times but still tight. How can you help me if you don't mind?
Good explanation on both types of actions. I personaly prefer the control feed for hunting and push feed for bench rest shooting. I just always liked to know that i didnt need to worry about a round falling out of the action or having a double feed when things got exciting. That being said i bout a model 70 in 1987 when Winchester were making the less desirable push feed. Well i used that gun for 30 years and to this day will say it was 1 of the most accurate rifles i have ever seen. I could lay a dime on a 3 shot group at 100 yards all day long with just about any brand of ammo i used, sadly i had to sell it a few years ago after losing my job. I have had several 06 300 mags in control feed action and they were great guns. I dont think 1 is any better over the other. I will say for dangerous game the kind that can eat you or stomp you into a little puddle of goo push feed for me all the way. 1 thing i noticed you didnt mention about the control feed that i have heard from as far back as i can remember is if a round sticks in the chamber the control feed with that big claw will give you more umph to get that stuck case to come out. I have never ran into that issue but i can remember many a gun scribe and big game hunter mentioning that over the years. Anyhow thanks for another good video on guns.
Love my old FN 06. Used it over 50 yrs and it has always been 100 % function and a tack driver. Some of my newer push feed have not been 100% and not nearly as accurate.
Many people had the small extractor of the Remington 700 break. An international hand gun shooter had two of them break. I know some gunsmiths will not install a Sako extractor because I believe you have to cut out part of the bolt.