Prototype Tube-Magazine Trapdoor Springfield
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- čas přidán 18. 08. 2020
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This experimental repeating conversion of a Trapdoor Springfield was most likely made by Augustine Sheridan Jones, of the Dakota Territory in the 1880s. We know he submitted a different type of magazine-fed Trapdoor to the US military’s 1882 repeating rifle trials, and this rifle also came out of South Dakota.
At any rate, what the designer did was to, remarkably, figure out a functional way to add a tube magazine to the Trapdoor system. It even has a magazine cutoff feature, allowing it to be run as a single shot rifle with the magazine held in reserve, or as a repeater…
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A flintlock rifle converted into a percussion cap rifle, converted into a breechloaded catridge fed rifle, converted into a repeater.
*whistles*
I'm impressed.
The history of firearms in one rifle.
I was going to ask for a Q&A what was the most converted gun in history, and I think I just have my answer.
@@Pcm979 technically a flintlock rifle was never made into a repeator
@@spartanumismatics8165 I'm counting prototypes, obviously. Or else me posting in this video wouldn't make much sense.
TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!... really it just fell into obsolescence with style... 😂😂.. I'll just let myself out.
Note to all gunsmiths and firearms designers: PLEASE document your work so that Ian McCollum XIV can give you proper credit in the "Forgotten Weapons" videos of 2450.
Ian will become the weapon we would be reviewing
Forgotten Biomechanics
Seriously tho, think how many people will and have learned and benefited from his work, and how many years his work will continue to serve the good of man. It's amazing to me.
That's why he would be a good Terminator
@@MavvodoHall "Hi guys, thanks for tuning in to another video on Forgotten Weapons dot VR. I'm Ian McCollum XIV and today we're going to be taking a look at the ORIGINAL Ian McCollum. The exterior is pretty typical of existing Ian models, so why don't I go ahead and bring the camera back here so we can take a look inside..."
I’m legitimately impressed at the design. Functional probably not. Efficient, absolutely not. Cool, absolutely.
Functional? Probably.....Otherwise, yeah.
From the channel that brought you such classics as "magazine fed revolver", "bullpup pistol", and who could forget "flint lock machine gun", we bring you THE "TUBE MAGAZINE TRAPDOOR"
WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK
Hunt Showdown: **starts taking notes**
They ahould add the c&r magazine shotgun
Still waiting for the lee navy straight pull which was made in 1895
@@Zealot_of_Omnissiah no one expected that.
@@guynemer53 no one expected the Spanish Inquisition.
Yessss I love that game
One big advantage this adaption of the Trapdoor Springfield has is minimal retraining of troops in order to use it, the basics are the same as the single shot.
and the cost of converting the existing rifles as well
Me playing RDR1: wait why does the springfield rifle have a 4 round capacity? It only has a one round capacity!
Me now: who would even decide to change it any further? Just build a new rifle at this point!
Springfield Armory has a trapdoor with a 5-round cartridge holder machined directly into a protrusion on the side of the stock, exactly like a modern sidesaddle shotshell holder.
@@moosemaimer that's not exactly a 5 round capacity but still really flippin kewl...
the trapdoor was a modified muzzleloader in the first place
lots of people asked why dont you just buy a bunch of winchesters
@@gregeoryl I mean converting it from muzzleloader to breechloader made sense, but adding a tube magazine seems like you took a car from the 1910s, upgraded it to 1950s standards and now are trying to make it work like it was designed for the 21st century, at first it makes sense, but at some point you just have to drop it entirely.
Now it only needs a gas system like on the Huot automatic, next level achieved
This whole time i was hard on rdr1 for the inaccuracy of a repeating trapdoor Springfield. Turns out that I was the fool.
Amazing how Ian started off with a CZcams channel and ran with it so hard he became THE authoritative firearms historian of our time.
Well done Ian, your body of work is a new standard.
The person who designed /built this weapon was BRILLIANT.
Damn shame we don't have more information on him /them.
/her Just joking.
Him
Lost it at the "nyeh.... meh"
1:10
I need that as my new ringtone.
Ian just watched 90 Day Fiance and did his best Rose.
It was the truth. It was the same thing that happened in European countries, trial after trial where there were dozens of Meh firearms tested and none adopted.
@@948320z I know a few people who in my contact list who would get that ring tone...
Ongoing trials... Nya, Meh.... nostesnsical accuracy.
I want to go back in time and scream at the head of US ordnance FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ADOPT THE ROLLING BLOCK
Nah too expensive.
Still a single shot with a 4 step loading process, not to mention a hard rifle to get a cheek weld on.
...of course it could be chambered in smokeless cartridges, but given how isolationist America was at that time, that probably means we'd have skipped the Krag, keeping the rolling block until about 1903.
they should have adopted the Winchester.
@@GunFunZS of course they should have, but due to cost they never would have. As Ian and Karl said, they should have issued 1876s in 40-60 or 45-75 to enlisted personnel, and Henry's or '73s to the officers and NCOs. Such a squad would be well equipped in 300 yard and closer combat. They would compare favorably to WWI infantry units, and compare decently to even a WWII era squad in small unit firepower.
@@jacobmccandles1767 I thought about this a bit. In practice post-war American army was tiny. They needn't have acted as though anything they adopt must be adopted for the whole potential army versus adopted for the active army. they always had a sunk cost fallacy in updating their outdated arms as though they would have to do that same update for an army conscripted from the entire populace. Really they were fighting small frontier skirmishes and really only needed be armed for those and it probably would have been les s net resources to equip so as to win. They could have bought expensive guns. And if you think about a lever gun and something like 45 Colt versus single shots in 4570, new materials and logistical burden of transporting ammo would be not quite half per number of shots. I suppose it's kind of analogous of switching from 308 to 223. A given soldier or a given wagon to carry way more 45 Colt ammunition than they could carry 4570. The same amount of powder , brass and fulminate would finish somewhere around double the amount of firepower. That does not strike me as an increase in the logistical burden.
of mercury
So, this means that the mechanic the Springfield rifle used in red dead redemption 1, where it worked like a repeater, may not be a misrepresented weapon, but actually a prototype weapon? And we were the ones who made the mistake in the first place not thinking rockstar thought of this? Pretty cool!
Hmm I doubt that was there intention, its equally as unrealistc that everyone has a prototype rifle, but it does wrap in nicely
@@CAMSLAYER13 the Mauser ingame Is a schnellfeuer, i think they intentionally added in some prototypes in fear of the standard weapon being too boring, plus, the buffalo rifle itself was already a 1 round weapon. I think they did it this way for that reason, to avoid monotony in weaponry
@@Mr_Blonde-ru9kd at the end of the day it's a game and I concede messing around with things that only existed in a limited capacity is fun.
@@CAMSLAYER13, "it is equally unrealistic that everyone has a prototype weapon."
They may have used a real life prototype weapon as the basis for an in game weapon. In game it is not a prototype weapon.
I chalked it up to him grabbing a couple rounds at a time and keeping them in his hand
So Red Dead Redemption 1 did the Trapdoor rifle right. Just not in the way most would think.
Much like the guns of battlefield one the guns in red dead were seemingly classics but more often than not based upon unique prototype weapons
Appalachian Exploration Actually none of them were particularly obscure besides the LeMat, Evans, and Blunderbuss.
This is one of the minor things that annoyed me about red dead one, how is it real. Though red dead clearly didnt have anything under the barrel but it's an old game and forgiveable that in testing they realized single shots weren't so fun, especially on console.
They did it right then as well, John held the other four cartridges in his hand, and reloaded really quickly, iirc.
“Nyaaaaa, meah” is the best descriptor of “no” from a government agency in all of recorded history.
What can he say? It's probably right in the trial reports under "Observations"
I love how excited Ian gets over experimental firearms. I agree that early repeating and semi auto designs are some of the most interesting. Not only how people thought might be the best but also all of the patent workarounds people had to go through.
Whoa, this is cool.
I don’t know why but I read that like Ryo From Senmue
Whoa, this is cool
So this is what John Marston was using in RDR1
I remember hearing talk of holding extra cartridges between your fingers or in your teeth, but just for standard breech-loading. Haven't gotten to find the actual instructions yet. Though, people testing this say it works.
Also, I wish this was the RDR1 Springfield. That would be awesome.
Honestly my most used rifle in the whole game. It may not be quick but it puts enemies down with one shot.
Can't wait for the belt fed Martini video
Lol, snort.
I love the Springfield rifle. Such a cool weapon, with all it’s variations. I wish you could recreate that prototype and see how it functioned on a shooting range.
I enjoy all of the FW content but this kind of stuff is epic.
I've seen and owned a whole lot of trapdoors over the years, but have never seen anything like this, including an exclusive tour of the museum collection at Springfield. Thanks for the post! I love the rifles and pistols from the late 19th century, with so many innovative (and sometimes downright suicidal) attempts at designs for breechloaders and repeaters!
Nice cover about the stock breaking due to it “being pushed too hard”. I know you did it yourself to let us see the action, thank you
My guess is it was done by the 10 yr old son of the original collector who just had to see how it worked. Nearest tools were a hammer and screwdriver.
That is so much less of a cludge than I expected.
this has got to be one of the coolest weapons youve showcased here on your show. if guns could speak i could only imagine the stories this weapon could tell. it looks like its had a lot of use. thank you for giving us the opportunity to learn about these awesome pieces of history.
No dummy cartridge demonstration?!? :(
My thoughts entirely. It would make things much more clear.
Hmm yes, it surely would have been neat to see the system in action.. But somehow I doubt dummy cartridge production was even a thing back in that time period, so I guess Ian didn't have access to any to show us.
@@tjthompson3270 they do make .45-70 snap caps. But Ian needs a couple dummy cartridges in all calibers ever.
How many people carry .45-70 snap caps around? I'm certain Ian doesn't have room for a bag of assorted snap caps in a hundred different calibers to haul with him on trips.
@@williamcousins3026 It's a pretty simple system, there's not much to demonstrate.
When the video started I had an idea of how it worked. My idea was pretty close but not as simply ingenious. The longest "ohhhhhhh" in my life as soon as you pulled that little "leg" out. Absolutely amazing gun.
I do so appreciate the minds who came up with such designs! I could NEVER come up with that.
So.. its a "Semi-Repeating" rifle if you have to force feed a cartridge?
WOW, this kind of stuff is why I watch this channel! How lucky we are to have Ian combing thru the auctions to bring us these obscure and unknown prototypes. Without him most of them would never see the light of day. They'd just disappear into another collector's vault to be seen only by a lucky few. A big thanks Ian!!! I guess I'll have to finally get off of some money to patreon. That being said, this thing raises more questions than it answers, intriguing. More for a Q&A video. Thanks again.
Love the sling swivel on the trapdoor! It’s just super classy
Ian, You should have Mark build you one out of a Uberti. I would love to see one of those out at the range and on an episode of of the Anvil. What do you think?
HUNT next patch we need Springfield Swift.
This would be so freaking cool tbh we should spam crytec until it happens
That would really be badass
The inventor was probably hoping to capitalize upon the Army's demonstrated love of repurposing existing equipment, and it's a very clever design.
That said, vs a Winchester or Marlin lever action, it has a couple of big disadvantages: to load the magazine you need open the action and empty the chamber, and reloading from the magazine requires 6(!) distinct actions.
Bottom line: had Custer's men been equipped with these on game day, the final score would've remained the same.
To expand on your first sentence, but diverge: The army also had a demonstrated love of preserving the manual of arms. More crucially, the doctrine of fire discipline was a top priority. A soldier was supposed to fire when ordered to; the ability to fire rapidly was reserved for crucial moments. An ammo supply is never infinite. The magazine cut-off is great for this, of course.
Once the magazine is loaded before an engagement, the action of firing is the same as the single shot he's already trained for. When repeating fire was needed, the only difference is omitting the step of loading the round; opening the trapdoor and thumbing the round into the barrel was the same.
Not as rapid as a Winchester, but the army valued a heavier round more than rapid fire; the 1886 model able to handle that round wasn't around when this 1881 conversion was made. As for Custer - well, the end would have been the same, but the score less lopsided.
Ah finally the magazine Springfield rifle from red dead 1
Damn, you beat me to it
Tube fed magazine trapdoor. Okay, it's not something that special but...
*gives the statement a moment of thought*
...wait, what the...?
Yeah. They don't get that big when they're tube fed. Corn fed are fatter.
Here's a rifle that I wish had gone into production. Love the trap door and this would have taken it to another level!
These kind of old experimental designs are EXACTLY why I love this channel and recommend it to my friends. What a find!
Videos such as this are why I try to watch every Forgotten Weapons. Thank you, Ian.
Thanks Ian. I enjoy your presentations. I two appreciate these old prototypes.. Much thanks..
A very literal "Forgotten Weapon", I dig it!
This _"could"_ actually probably be used without having to shove your finger in the breach every time. You run your breach with the muzzle singled downward, so when the next round pops up in the lifter, as long as it's a round nosed or spritzer tipped projectile and not a flat face, it'll slide down the lifter into the chamber. You may have to shake it to make sure it's fully seated, but that's all. I really want to know if that would work.
Hands down my favorite FW video. Ian is a master at what he does!
This is the kind of content I love on this channel: Innovations that were tried and never adopted, along with the discussion of why.
The Cambrian explosion of firearms design I and II.
Points for working in an obscure reference. Double points for an obscure reference with the word 'explosion'. :D
One of the best vids you have done.
An actual forgotten weapon!
That is so cool! I love prototype stuff. Design machines myself (no firearms). Recently sold off a building w/ my old R&D lab. It was painful to have to sell old prototype stuff as scrap. My wife drew the line at yet another shed in the back yard to store my 'treasures.'
One of the few oddities that caught my eye this time around with the premiere, and a very cool rifle at that. Thanks for showing us!
Honestly kinda unimpressed by what's for sale this time around, doesn't help that it's dominated by one dude's collection.
This is one of the best of the Forgotten Weapons videos.
All I can say is that this is a great video, thank you for this video and many others, gives me gun ideas for my game
That is a genius, though inefficient, adaptation for a magazine Trapdoor rifle. It makes me wonder "in whose basement the box magazine version of the Trapdoor hiding."
Ian's French is so good that MY-not, South Dakota, becomes MIH-no.
Since the next round is already waiting under the breech block, seems possible the damage on the stock under the elevator could be from the next round misfiring when the current round was fired.
My favorite videos are the ones where you've found unusual and interesting designs like this one.
Very interesting adaptation. Great vid.
this is the coolest gun i have ever seen, it combines the beauty of a musket and the utility of gun, god i wish to see this one in some game
Isn’t it wonderful looking at the period of unfettered invention when lots of inventors were trying lots of things?! It was that way with many things. There were MANY cars invented before we settled into a way of building them. A remarkable variety of airplanes existed before that technology settled down. I’m a gun guy, but years ago a Historian friend gave me a book of more than 100 American gun makers, most of whom were completely new to me. 😀
You can see why it never went anywhere, but that has to be one of the most interesting conversions you have shown us yet.
That's a cool conversion! Even more interesting given lever guns and bolt guns which were already in existence
I never wanted a trapdoor. Until now. Thanks for sharing.
Cool Menno SD is only 110 miles from my boyhood home. I may have known the guy that had this? but the guy I know passed on 3 years ago so that page is closed.
He had a huge and unique collection.with a story about the history of most of his items. For me He was the high point of every gun show he displayed at, we talked for many hours.
This is like a weird, somewhat less useful American Lebel in a BP cartridge. What a find!
I’d really love to see you shoot some of the guns as it would really top the showcase of the weapons
This feature that the gun works as a single-shot rifle was actually a common request from militaries at the time (1860s to 1880s). Higher ups were worried that soldiers would, in panic, fire too many rounds, so they insisted that repeating rifles had this feature. An officer had to essentially order his men to use the repeating feature, thereby having a better control over their fire rate and ammo consumption. Seems silly now, but that's how they rolled back then. You have to keep in mind that back then, soldiers were still expected to fight in formation in the open field without cover (look at the first combat photo from the Franco-Prussian war to see what I mean). Those lines were not dense anymore and going prone or at least kneeling was increasingly common given the ever increasing accuracy, fire rate and range of the weapons being used, but they still existed. It was a transitional period and because of this, a lot of old thinking still remained.
Yes! It's extremely important to work from the mindset of the period when weighing how decisions were made. Historians use the term "presentism" to warn against the error of missing this point. Fire discipline was of the highest priority. The army would be quite happy with a magazine cut-off, with rapid fire reserved for crucial moments. And after all, it would have to be reserved, *any* tube fed repeater is relatively slow to reload. A Winchester-style carbine would rapid-fire more quickly, but take just as long to reload.
Menno SD is barely a town. Remarkable local detail.
That’s a really unique design for a tubular magazine
That is hands down the coolest rifle I've ever seen
Outstanding video
One way I could see this prototype be significantly improved is if you install a spring mechanism next to the hammer. (Inside the stock)
The mechanism could work were when the latch rotates back to a 90 degree angle, the spring is released, pushing the cartridge forward. Once that's done, as the latch continues to lower part the 90 degree mark, the spring gets pulled back.
(Maybe a tiny gear to allow this directional change) Effectively reloading by popping the hatch open so the spent cartridge can eject, and then closing the latch with the next bullet moved into the barrel by the closing motion.
Hence it shall truly be a Trapdoor 'Spring'field.
I have a trap door, and i really wish it was like this one!!!! such a cool design !
Holy shot, you found one of my ancestors desines.^^ he was a gunsmith after the civil war, hope you find more soon.
Hope you find my other grandfathers desine or the tube fed sharps rifle or the double barrel double grooved sharps rifle as well as a martini rifle with a magazine similar to the Spencer carbine.^^
If anybody finds it, you would be in for a treat.^^
Okay so I’m early I’m just gonna ask. Who actually disliked this video? Was it an accident? Do they just not like guns? Troll? Etc? I for the life of me don’t understand how a video this professional and educational has anything negative going for it. Whatever, blessed be the ammo can of Antioch or whatever the guy with thorns on his head said.
Probably mistake
I keep telling myself that there have to be some anti-gun "karen" types subscribed.. or like you said just petty trolls. I called someone out on a previous video that commented "yay first dislike" and I asked them to please stop. That's all I said. Another troll told me -I- was annoying. There really are some bone headed people walking this planet.
@@mattfleming86 well, at 17000 views it is really plausible that someone watching from the phone hit the dislike accidentally
I'm interested too. Given that videos are basicaly flawless, i guess these are just gunhaters.
@@TheCokoll it is literally 8 people over tens of thousands of views: mistakes happen xD don't look for gun hater where there aren't
Hi, Ian. Another clever prototype. Unfortunately, it lacked the means to survive in the wild testing arena. Like, he had an idea that bugged him until he made one. So he submitted it, anyway. Sort of like mixing horses and donkeys. It works, sort of... Thanks for sharing! Stay healthy!
While obviously there is a tremendous boost in efficiency in terms of actions for hits with modern small arms, there is something truly wonderful about the look and sound and feel of old rifles like this. Hard to beat the aesthetics of aged walnut and steel. I can't imagine that 100 years from now anyone will be as awed by a 1982 M4 prototype as we are by this ~1882 prototype. We gained so much utility but at the cost of the soul of the gun. Shame. Oh well. We can always build more!
You bring the coolest things 😎
Absolutely brilliant
When running a trapdoor, if you hold it with the muzzle angled down, gravity dies a good job of chambering those big heavy rounds. I think it would do the same with this one, so not having it mechanically push the round in the chamber may not be as big of a drawback as one would think.
That such an awesome design.
Alright Crytek, here’s your next variant
It resembles Krag-Petersson rifle, where the cartridge also rises from the tube magazine, but then it must be pushed into the chamber manually.
Very neat system !
Never thought Springfield rifle is that intricate
Now that’s an ingenious adaptation.
Honestly, I always found the original Trapdoors to be well-designed rifles, surprisingly fast to reload for a single-shot. Yeah, they went obsolete quickly, but for what they were they were excellent guns. This is a pretty cool system and I think it might have actually worked a bit better than Ian gives it credit for. Once the lifter raises the cartridge, you could likely just tilt the rifle forwards and the round will drop into the chamber.
Without taking it apart to see how much space is left underneath the breech section of this rifle, I do see a way someone could have possibly built it to include a feed of cartridges from the lifter into the chamber while closing the "trapdoor". Thinking a small gear linked to the axis of the door, and a pair of racks (one on each side, or even just a single) that cycle forward and back with the cartridge from the lifter
This is genius! I’m really surprised this didn’t make it into production.
He was keeping the best design for himself
Very cool gun.
Its a double trapdoor Springfield.
An amazing combination of ingenious and daft.
And cant wait to see this in r/h3vr
He'll yeah brother
Very similar to the action on the Krag-Peterssen. I'd love to see Ian do a video on the Krag-Peterssen or Kammerlader. I can't find very much on them in English and my Norwegian is not great.
I was just about to say how clever this looks when Ian says "Really a very clever system." nuff said
The Army had a bunch of trials and didn't adopt anything!?!?! Gee, nice to see they have not changed. Very interesting rifle.
"Jim-Bob! You interested in them there U.S. Army rifle trials?" "Yes-sir-ree! Got myself a Winchester just for it!" "Well all-right!"
THIS is why I'm subscribed!
Honestly it has some potential. Would be cool to see a modern recreation of it with modern tooling
So simple yet so genius
Woah this prototype is so strange but is also awesome and interesting :)
Yeah really cool conversion never seen anything like it
Brilliant adaptation of an excellent (for its time) rifle. Not militarily useful, but for a hunter? Absolutely useful.