The Tricky Term “Queerbaiting” - Use It, Don’t Abuse It
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
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Is the term “queerbaiting” getting overused to the point of losing its meaning? Calling out this practice is an important tool in trading the shallow act of subtly suggesting queer romance for better LGBTQ+ representation. However, throwing around the word “queerbaiting” too liberally can erode its power and veer into harmful gatekeeping -- making individuals feel they can’t explore their personal sexuality in a fluid, open-ended or playful way without getting policed. So how do we find the perfect medium?
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In terms of real life people being accused of “queerbaiting” (like the discourse on Billie) I’m like, so y’all know outing people is bad and yet you’re pressing people to prove their queerness and rush to come out?? 😬
Sorry last time I checked "coming out of the closet" meant not "imma make shit tons of money with promoting a gay image because it's easy"
Agreed (at least on some level). It’s interesting though because on the flip side, there are (admittedly rare cases) where celebrities and influencers pander to their gay fanbases but then turn around, exploit, and disrespect them. For example Nicki Minaj, who proudly called herself a gay rapper once, works with extremely problematic and homophobic people, weaponizes her fanbase, and attacks queer creators online.
Like the video says, it’s tricky. These celebrities don’t owe their fans anything regarding their own sexualities. However if you’re going to want support from queer folk, at least be a decent ally and be aware of what you’re doing.
For me, a product (like a music video), I think can be queerbaiting versus a celebrity just being ambiguous about their love life in interviews ect. That is clearly a private issue. I'm mostly referring to really sexual stuff like Rihanna and Shakira "Remember to Forget You". Less so Billie.
@@emfgull I feel you on this. I remember when I saw the video for the first time. When they touched each other my face went😲.
@@twiggledowntown3564 SAME
The Good Place isn't queerbaiting, Eleanor is cannonically bi. A bi woman ending up with a man but also showing attraction to women ain't queerbaiting, and a bi woman ending up with a man doesn't make them any less queer.
Too many times I ask myself if by being with a man makes me less bi, I never felt like I was fiting, but guess you answered my question in a way
Exactly, those kind of acussations feel biphobic if you ask me
Exactly, I just about to comment this. Elanor is bi and had genuine interest in female characters, she just ended up with a guy.
this
I didn't realize she was canonically bi. I was going to comment (and I still stand by my following comment generally). Hetero people can find somebody of the same gender attractive and talk about it.
It's natural for a woman to look at another woman and think damn she's hot (or beautiful, or stunning, etc). Same for hetero men. It's normal, it happens with everyone, and I think it's healthy to acknowledge those thoughts instead of feeling shame about them or people assuming that you're queerbaiting.
In defense of The Good Place, they acknowledged that Eleanor is bisexual and while they were willing to explore the idea but they didn't have enough screen time.
Yes, also her ending up with Chidi wasn't sth to cover up her attraction to women, it was an organic conclusion. Could they have had explored more her relationship with Tahani? Absolutely. Do they make it abundantly cear that Eleanor is bisexual? Absolutely.
HOLY HOLY!!! I can proudly say that I have the two HOTTEST women on this planet as MY GIRLFRIENDS! I am the unprettiest CZcamsr ever, but they love me for what's inside! Thanks for listening po
yeah, i always thought it was so clear she was bisexual, even if we don’t get a coming out scene and she just dates a man, it doesn’t change her sexuality
@@AxxLAfriku weed smoking girlfriends post real???
Yeah, Eleanor is cannonically bi. A cannonically bi person ending up with someone of a different sex isn't queerbaiting
I don’t understand why Harry Styles has to either be gay or dress “straight”…???? Like… this kind of binary thinking around gender and sexuality is exactly what I thought we were trying to avoid
Exactly... the whole point is to bend gender rules
He’s a straight white man profiting from lgbtq so yeah he deserves to be called out
@@sana-xe5cs everyone benefits from the lgbtq community dont know abot what u saying
Exactly. I just think it’s very hypocritical.
@@sana-xe5cs Oh shut up, he's profiting from all communities.
People saying Harry Styles queerbaits because he doesn't dress "like a man" is such bullshit. You're supposed to support blurred lines when it comes to gender expression yet you jump at other people's throats when they do it. What the hell is wrong with you?
Leaving aside the highly toxic mindset that people need to come out so that they can justify what they are doing and going back to Harry, even if he's a cisgender straight man, why do you care if he dresses in a skirt, silk see through shirts or dresses? I thought fashion was for everyone, but now we're gatekeeping clothes as proof of queerness?
Kind of irrelevant but this reminds me of those idiots that say that cis people, bi people in a het relationship and ace people shouldn't be at pride because "they don't get it". Shit man, do you even hear yourself? Like, congrats, you have unlocked the *woke homophobia* achievement
Exactly. The dude is just into fashion. And of course he supports freedom and fluidity of expression, but he also just explores his fashion interest.
I love your comment.💚💙
Yes and yes and yes and yes, all true.
Thank you! Could not have said it better.
Projecting onto others can be extremely harmful.
As an aromantic asexual, I just want more portrayals of good friendships in media. I am most likely never going to have a romantic partner, but I have friends whom I love, and I think most people in general need to see friendship story every now and then.
As an asexual, I want to see more asexual media representation. Tody from Bojack horseman was a breath of fresh air
I think families are a good example of having strong love that is also platonic at the same time. People just need to learn that for example a straight guy can love a straight friend as a sister; romantic love is too ingrained where I seen friends question if they should date without romantic feelings
Ever heard of The Mysterious Mr Enter? Besides him, you're the only other aromantic asexual I've heard of
@@Jordan64852 That would be Storge Love. The Greeks believed in 6 different types of love. The other five are agápe, éros, philía, philautia, and xenia.
I am aromantic myself (not asexual) and I agree with you. I don't think I have ever seen a character that is aromantic🤔 and definitely not without being asexual. In our societies we are made to believe that you need to be in a relationship and as a woman you need to have kids. I have even read a scientific article that measured if the people they studied had "failed" in life by if they had a family of their own.
The Good Place definitely wasn't queerbaiting. It wasn't a jokey 'ha-ha I'm so jealous that you're so beautiful you would turn me on if I was gay' thing. Eleanor was openly bisexual and she 100% meant it that she finds Tahani attractive. The fact that she ended up in a relationship with a man does not make her less bi when her orientation was quite explicit in the show.
@kshamwhizzle Yeah, I think the show was spot on in the amount of relationship drama that was necessary to keep things entertaining, but not too much to dilute the message.
@@UmbraKrameri yes quite the opposite of what friends did
Also what about when we as queer people talk about how writers write the queerness of a character as their entire personality
Eleanor's queerness was so casual and just welcome
Edit and also Eleanor hyped tahani up as a girlfriend and ALSO found her attractive
@@bighead4564 Yes! Casual queerness would be a great achievement for representation. It is very much needed beside the stories that focus on the queer issues. Also, another great aspect is that Tahani finds fulfillment without having a romantic partner in the end! This show was so great on so many levels.
Plus there was another scene where Eleanor helps Chidi practice breaking up with his girlfriend in some kind of stimulator. At one point, she goes as herself to show what would happen if she tried to break up with Chidi's girlfriend for him, and she and the girlfriend start holding hands and almost kiss until Chidi gets her out of the stimulation. It's very obvious that she's a confirmed bisexual and that the writers meant for her to be that way.
I don't understand why people think Ariana is queerbaiting. The line "I like women and men" is written by and sung by Victoria Monét who is openly bi
Because even in the LGBT+ community, bisexuals are treated as "different".
I guess discrimination runs deep in our nature :/. Even those who have been hurt by it discriminate.
It's not just that, she has queerbaited many more times. Stan her talent but she's the epitome of queerbaiting
@@rainbowsubs2 can you tell me the instances she has queerbaited ? I'm new to her music and dunno much about her
@@vanessadoofenshmirtz7011 another example is her music video break up with your gf I am bored
I never thought Hannibal was queerbaiting. It was just queer, it was not really trying to hide it. Maybe at first, but as the series progressed, the subtext became text. The reason that Hannibal and Will never kissed, was not because the writers did not want to go through with the queer aspects of their relationship. It was because for Hannibal and Will, the CHARACTERS, it made sense that their relationship will end bloody and tragic. Their love for each other had nothing to do with the other being sexually attractive. It was "attraction of the minds" at its purest.
And i don't think Hannibal/NBC got much in the way of prospective viewer capital from the queerness on the show.
and that love comes mostly from showing a complex and troubled relationship and definitely not being queerbaiting
Not to mention that Hannibal had another in-universe example of a HEALTHY, normalized queer couple involving major characters to supplement the Hannibal/Will relationship
@@endel12 Great point
My spouse and I were breathless during that final scene between the two of them. Of course they would "consummate" their love with blood and death.
Billie Eilish is a teenager, nobody should expect person that young to have label set on them, she can express her way on discovering herself in her videos without ppl bitching about it
yup most people tend to forget that just because she its legally an adult doesnt mean she becme one magiclly in every sence of it
The fact that some people "know" things about themselves and/or their sexuality from an early age gets turned into a weapon sometimes against people who don't begin their self-exploration until they're older.
.
It doesn't help that said experimental phase often *is* used by agents etc. to bait the stars' fans (meaning the celebrity isn't experimenting so much as following a script to appear to be doing so, the way one half of the Russian Tatu duo later acknowledges was happening at least for her own part). That doesn't mean what they do can't mean something to people, but the deception is hurtful and souring.
@@Justaguythatcameby no but it means we can call her out without getting people like you telling us that she's a kid leave her alone when she's actually adult
especialy since its a wide spectrum and way more fluid then many are happy to aknowlage! Aomeone elses sexuality is not anyone elses buisness to begin with
Hannibal was NOT queerbaiting. Hannibal was canonically in love with will. It was said on the show, by the creator, and by the actors.
The creator of the show not the source material big difference. It was obvious it was changed to make gays feel better about themselves.
@@madcircle0461 and why is that bad??
@@madcircle0461 but they were talking about the show, not the source material lol
@@madcircle0461 bro like the show isn't just a new take in everything from the source materials
@@madcircle0461 I’ve read the source material. Hannibal in love with Will honestly makes more sense lol
I find it even more disrespectful when people call actual bi people "queerbaiters" like Cardi B who has been out as bi for a long time. Much of the argument about queerbaiting is rooted in biphobia.
I think the problem with "queerbaiting" in movies and shows is that friendships can't be close without people implying there is more. But if we had more queer representation perhaps people wouldn't ship people who are genuinely meant to be friends.
I agree 100%. I think that's the reason why w/w and m/m shippers are much more passionate and even extreme with their views than m/w shippers is because w/w and m/m couples in cinema and tv get very little decent representation in general. Although I find many shippers to be extremely annoying, I don't blame them for grasping at as many bits of "evidence" as possible to "prove" that these clearly straight friends are gay.
I think that's also why we as a society accept fictional stories of gay couples who are toxic or badly written. When writers write gay people, the bar is set so low, because they know that no matter how terrible the couples are written, fans will take any sort of representation they can get and praise the writers for being progressive. We straight people have tons of representation. Sure, we have stories of badly written couples who are toxic or simply have bad chemistry, however we don't let writers get away with it as easily and they get plenty of well justified criticism. With gay couples in fiction? The writers make no effort, and they get away with it.
Anyways, basically, I agree with you.
I agree with both points
Cardi B is Bi when did she came out I miss this yes a lot Biphobia / Bi Erasure within our LGBTQ+ Community that’s reason why end two friends and tell them .🖕 I’m glad people open their eyes in our community there’s Biphobic people I been discriminated against being attractions not one gender.Gays/ Lesbian saying Bisexuality doesn’t exist why is called LGBTQ+ Community News flash ! B stands Bisexual not Biphobia .
I’m bisexual and I don’t agree. If Cardi is bisexual then why does she never talk about women? It’s a little sus.
@@Xplreli She has been open about it I seen a video on she opened her attracted to women is on CZcams.
But the Tahani one was legit. Eleanor is bi and is super attracted to her. They're even married in one of the snaps
Yes! But it felt like the writers didn't wanna risk an ACTUAL same sex relationship on screen, so they just pointed at it without giving any real representation
@@Matildaconaooof bi-erasure alert
@@Mia199603 Agreed. As a bi person, it can be a little frustrating to have your sexuality flattened by virtue of who your eventual partner is. Sara in Legends of Tomorrow (I think probably the queerest show on tv) isn’t a lesbian because her OTP is with a woman and Eleanor isn’t straight because her OTP is with a man. Chidi is just the one who works for that character.
@@Matildacona some bi people do end up only dating people of the opposite gender, though (the opposite end of the gender spectrum from themselves, if they have a binary gender). Not because they're avoiding being in same-gender relationships, just because that's who they end up feeling attracted to at the time.
So saying it only really counts as LGBT representation if they have a same-gender relationship is bi erasure (although I'm sure that isn't what you intended), because that's essentially saying that only the relationships a bi person has with a same-gender partner really 'count' as being queer. As if they're 'being gay' when they date the same gender, and 'being straight' when they date the opposite gender.
Thinking if it as a black and white split (between gay people and straight people) ignores bi identities - they aren't 'changing their mind', or 'switching teams', they're consistently bi the whole time. So showing them dating the opposite gender is still representation of a queer person. They're not 'being a straight person' in that relationship, they're being bi.
@@marietailor3100 I really see your point, however I don't think it is the case. Eleanor is shown about to kiss a girl and then the scene abruptly ends, it is shown that in one of the reboots Tahani is her soulmate but we never get to see them together. It is not that she only dated boys but the show specifically only showed her relationships with boys, even when she had a relationship witha girl and intentions of kissing another one.
I'm not saying the character isn't bi, it was just frustrating the way it was portrayed
I don't think HS is queerbating. He likes to dress feminine and play with clothing. He isn't kissing guys on screen like the other examples
It isn't QUEER-BAITING but like in song, "watermelon sugar" he talks about sleeping with women bht in his song, "Medicine" he talks gow he's okay with kissing men ....(boys and girls are here, I mess around with him and um okay with it.) Also Louis Tomlinson and Harry Styles kind of write for each other a bit too, which can be taken as QUEER-BAITING (not to mention all *H.S. tattoos are half and the other half of them are on Louis Tomlinson in the same exact position like the ship-compass, key-lock, heart-dagger etc.)*
@@Bumble-bee_ but that sound more like they are discovering themselves and stuff but people keeo looking toi deep into it. At the end of the day they dont owe anyone an explanation about their tatoos or who they write songs about. Honestly some fandoms are just very entitled...
@@BetzyArosemena I never said that, I understand your point but I just said that during their time in 1D , they genuinely seemed to hint at it. Harry going as far as to say to a fan, "That yeah I'm dating him." And also how he always says, *Lou* instead of *You* in most love songs. But over the years, it's become more fiction and that's ok because it's their personal life and noone should harass them. But as fans, we will always try to find clues.
The whole song, *Adore you* is based on the book, "Louis-the fish" and harry named the fish in the song, "William" (which is louis middle name) or singing on radio to his own song to eating tacos with the fish, which he said numerous time that was the first dish ge made for louis Tomlinson because he hates most food, also how in the song it's all blue (... *Your eyes make me wanna cry, would u believe it?* color of Louis eyes) and how they've to let each other go to find themselves.
Or the infamous line of "Habit" in response to the line of song "Falling", *We were two hearts in one home.* And the song setting us the bedroom tiles of Harry and Louis's SHARED BEDROOM...(Harry and Louis used to live together during 1D even though all boys had their own apartments) and Louis wrote, *I'll always need you infront of me, look we've come so far from princess park.* And that's the name of apartment they used to live in.
I-
It's always hinted but with Louis, a father and Harry in a committed relationship, I personally don't go on to hate their spouses but it's weird that the most songs in album, Harry's *Fine line* or Louis's *Walls* seemed about each other. So, as fans should maintain dignity but that doesn't mean that H.S. and L.T. aren't playing maybe just a character of what they were like when they were dating.
@@Bumble-bee_ You are way, way down a conspiracy rabbit hole, searching for clues and refusing to acknowledge what’s right under your nose, Louis Tomlinson has had the same girlfriend for almost a decade and publicly said he’s straight, respect that! 1D went on hiatus 6yrs ago and since then there has been no public interaction between Harry and Louis - let it go!
@@Bumble-bee_ you sound like a flat earth conspiracy theorist 💀
I feel like a lot of people here don’t actually get the difference between queer baiting and shipping.
Also, I don’t think Hannibal is queer baiting, Bryan Fuller probably isn’t one to queer bait. I don’t really want to say too much, but he did confirm Hannibal as pan and a certain relationship isn’t straight (again don’t know if it’s a spoiler, and I don’t want to spoil).
Edit: Also Fuller really does ship Hannibal and Will as much as the fans. I like knowing he doesn’t make fun of his fans at their expense :P
Agreed. Will and Han is def not baiting. But it's also certainly not a conventional queer relationship by any means. So it's a bit of an... off colour example.
@@dipperdandy yeah definitely. I would be more inclined to ship them if Hannibal didn’t mentally and physically harm Will ._.
But also, the relationship I was talking about was (spoiler) Alana and Margot’s. I mean, as far as I have seen, neither has been killed off and it wasn’t like it was queer baited.
@@dipperdandy oh yeah definitely. I would be more inclined to ship them if Hannibal didn’t emotionally and physically harm Will ._.
Also, the relationship I was talking about was Alana and Margot’s. I haven’t seen all of the series yet, but as far as I know they’re both alive and the relationship didn’t have any sort of baiting.
@@HiBuddyyyyyy oh yeaaah I forgot all about that one. Boy, time for a rewatch!
I feel like Sherlock fits here. Both are shown to date women early on, and the creators even had an ongoing bit of John saying he wasn’t gay the MOMENT it was suggested in the show. That ones on the shippers, imho.
Edit: also, the joke about Sherlock and moriarty was about the numerous gay fanfics and shippers. It was a joke about the audience, not about their sexuality.
When it comes to real life people/celebrities I think caution should be used when throwing around the word queerbating. They are real life people who don't (and don't have to) share every aspect of exploring their sexuality. Everyone has a right to.
With fictional characters/shows/storylines it's different. We as viewers are a part of the journey. So if a character is exploring/questioning their sexuality we should be privy to that in a way that's accurate and authentic. If the character doesn't turn out to be queer, that's fine at least it was an accurate and respectful journey. Since the individuals behind the shows don't do that it's safe to say that they're queerbating and it needs to stop in favor of accurate representation
Agreed. Saying that someone like, say, Harry Styles shouldn't dress flamboyantly because it's baiting seems as limiting as a homophobe saying that "oh, why are you wearing a suit, I thought all gay men are flamboyant". Fashion in itself is not the same as sexual orientation and people shouldn't gatekeep it. And if real-life people want to be consensually flirty/sensual with other people without labelling themselves as one or other group, then it's also nobody's business
Accurate representation lol what a joke. Gay community is less than 10% of people yet it’s in almost every single show shoved down the audience throats. I’m not saying don’t make some people gay I just don’t like pandering and being hit over the head with it.
@@AW-uv3cb ☝👍
@@madcircle0461 you mean like how the LGBT+ community is repeatedly hit over the head with cis het portrayals? Boy bye
@@madcircle0461 for someone who doesnt like lbtq+ representation you sure clicked fast on this video that explores lbtq+ representation on media.
To be fair, The Good Place has confirmed that Eleanor is bisexual
Same thing in The Librarians. Cassandra was attractive to/attracted to women without it ever being treated as a joke or denied.
They confirmed it in the show, or did the writers confirm it after the fact?
With Dean on Supernatural, his character was written bi with both queer baiting AND coding tendencies. It really just seemed to depend on each writers intentions which differ. Dean explicitly says men are good looking and acts attracted to many men throughout the show (just search his name and bi for some completions) written either as a wink but also sometimes for a homophobic joke (emasculating him etc). By not having his explicitly reciprocate Cas’s feelings (or even discuss what happened before Cas died) they thought they would appease both queer and homophobic fans, but honestly it just reads as another bury your gays to me. Their relationship has inspired the most fanworks online of any couple ever, and the network instead chose to walk some imaginary line rather than be progressive
He was never written as bisexual. You're making that up. Calling another man handsome (jokingly or otherwise) does not automatically make you sexually attracted to them. I'm a gay man who can fully understand that women like Beyonce, Alexandra Burke, Dua Lipa, etc, are all beautiful women. That does not mean that I want to sleep with them. Jensen Ackles, the man that portrayed Dean for 15 years confirmed numerous times that Dean Winchester is straight, as did many writers, Eric Kripke (the creator of Dean Winchester) and the character himself when he professed multiple times that he didn't swing that way. If you chose to ignore that, that's on you. Everything that bi Dean stans say in support of him being bi sexual can easily be explained if you understand nuance and comedy, which is what those fans tend to severely lack. The best example of this is is the pilot when Dean tells Sam he missed a spot on the nude male model simply so he can force him to have to check out his genital region, therefore being an ass to his brother because Dean is constantly looking for ways to embarrass/tease his brother. The siren that manifested as a male told Sam "and it wasn't some b*tch in a G-string. It was you" implying that Dean's deepest desire in that moment was to have a good functioning relationship with his brother again, as they had been in dire straits with each other at the time. If you identify with Dean as a character, that's great. But it doesn't mean that he's bisexual just because certain people can't identify nuance and humour in place of the assumption that it's romantic. Hell, the MOST romantic scenes in SPN are between Sam and Dean, because they are platonic soul mates. You can believe whatever you want. That is your prerogative, but please don't spread false information that you got from Twitter/Tumblr/Tiktok that is not a valid source.
@@KikiMilen Thanks, you said everything I wanted to say
@@KikiMilen People should totally read it how they want but you should be aware that a lot items you mentioned were common tropes/techniques for queercoding especially the humor. You should also be aware that Kripke talked about on numerous occasions about one his main sources of characterization for Sam and Dean was Sal and Dean from Kerouac On the Road in which Dean is very heavily queer coded because even though Kerouac wanted it be explicit but that's 50's censorship. Additionally, the real person Kerouac based Dean on was Bi. Now does that mean is Bi no is does not, but to me combined 10 years romantically framed /lite shots of him and Cas that lead to Season 15 means that writers have to aware what they are doing they just don't care or least they care more about the money from Queer viewers. That makes it Queerbaiting. If you genuinely see it another way that's valid but please show respect the effort people put into their analysis. Also please keep in mind in real life people do not always have their sexuality figured and labeled by their twenties or even thirties sometimes like the they in the video it remains a fluid thing; it's a lovely angst filled experience.
Dean was never "written bi", also actors, including Jensen Ackles, always said he is not gay, when they were asked about it. You are confusing reality with porn again)
@@KikiMilen Dean was never written as bi, but Castiel was left more ambiguous. I sometimes thought they were queer-bating, because they wrote some scenes that pointed towards that relationship while it was clear as day that Dean was straight. I'm happy how they ended the series. Castiel declaring his love for Dean, an unrequited one, sure, but not less especial. I was pissed off when they did not address it again, though. Dean loves Castiel, even though it's not in a romantic way, and if a close friend confessed to me and then died to save my life, I'd have to sort out many feelings.
I think its very important to discuss queerbating when it comes to media and demand better repressentation. But I absolutely hate when people call out real people for "queerbating". A person wearing certain clothing, saying they love a certain gender or singing about queer topics while not being out as gay themselves is not queerbating! And calling celebrities out when they are doing these things is such gatekeeping. These are real people not characters and whatever you might believe to the contrary, you do not know them and you are not entitled to know everything about them. They might be queer, they might not, but that also shouldn't dictate how they express themselves as humans and artists.
Sherlock is my Game of Thrones. Loved that show but the last season sucked so much that I lost all interest. In hindsight, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth how hostile the creators were towards (often young) fans. Not cool - even if a lot of fans took it too far by harassing Mary's actress. It was a nasty situation all around that tainted a once great show.
Yes yes yes... I feel the same and it is so sad, it really broke my heart 💔
Seems like your still interested.
@@ianvera4299 I wouldn't say I'm still interested in the show. I feel no need to rewatch it - even stuff I liked - and I'm not hoping for new seasons nor engaging in its fandom. I guess it's still interesting as a cultural phenomenon that went out with a whimper.
@@Sandra-rc5uc Disagree, I feel like it went out with an uproar if the comments are any indication. I feel like even mentioning still provokes interest.
I thought the last season was good but different. But the fandom is toxic and I’m glad that the creators called it out.
Personally, i don't think one individual can queerbait. How do we know they're not questioning their sexuality? It's a problem is when the media uses it as a cop out to NOT give LGBTQ representation
How do we also know they are not trying to cash out from the community?
I think there are people who are queerbaiting, but there is no way to truely know and way more hamr in disbelive then just accepting them either way.
@@jeffersonhassan4558 so what, who are you to judge anothers queerness? How would you feel if people said no you are not allowed to act like you feel for it does not suit other peoples perception of what it mean to be as hwat you identify? Even if there is a level of preformativness in it, it still is representation, it still erodes the harsh lines of heteronormaty and what one is allowed to do and to express themselfs! Anothers sexuality is not your buisness, just enjoy your freedom and let them enjoy theirs that way you will both be freeer and happyer then trying to police eachother!
Hannibal is how you do a great piece of art without the risk of queerbaiting, unlike Sherlock: both have unconventional types of love but Hannibal is not afraid of showing it
sherlock is canonicly aro ace though, the fact that he cars at all about john in contrast to most other people gets misread in a way it should not. In the books their queerplatonic, thats not the same as being gay. She show murkied the waters with having john act defensiv as in denial which does top toe into queerbaiting but not all of it is queerbaiting. Mary made clear she knew she would have to share . . . but you also got to share your partner with their best friend, normaly, if their friendship is deserving of that tital
Loved how you include Hannibal, but I don't think that's even queerbait when it's stated that hannibal is indeed love with will
Yeah, I don’t think Bryan Fuller would be one to queer bait. Apparently he was at a red dragon convention and was saying who would top out of Hannibal and Will. And he did have Alana and Margot get together. And said Hannibal was pan. So that’s pretty cool.
I agree. And would could argue that Hannibal was not a major/popular enough show for NBC etc to have gotten much in the way from that in terms of promotion. I.e. i STRONGLY doubt that snagged many prospective viewers because of rep. as it was in the promo material, which is a huge part of this topic.
@@HiBuddyyyyyy Wait, who would top?
@@matxalenc8410 he said they’d switch.
in a very toxic, they are obcessed with eachother, do we want to call it love and it is not really sexual but still very much attraction way. having them make out and exchange rings like those haters of queerbaiting desire just would not fit who they are and what they have been through!
guess what people, relationships and attractions are way more complicated and nuances than the bs boy meats girl queers now want to see transphered into gay and then complain how shallow the characters are as if it where any different in straight romances . . .
Peolpe fail to realize is that sexuality is fluid, and people tend to change and grow, someone can like or fall in love and feel sexual attraction with a certain individual who happens to be of the same sex, but doesn't mean he/she is queer. Or someone who identifies as queer, can also fall in love/have sexual attraction to someone of the opposite sex. It's important to not put a box to things and give yourself time to fully understand what you feel and want for yourself without putting tags, names boxes labels whatever to things.
If you have problem convincing a homophobic person to not be homophobic, here's a line that might convince them "Let's say that if the context is flipped, where straightness is the one being oppressed A.K.A you're being oppressed, how would you feel? That's exactly how they feel."
@@robbieaulia6462 It doesn't work because most of them assume that being straight and cis should always be the norm and anything else is a deviation, therefore in their minds oppressing LGBTQ people will never be as bad as the idea of cis straight people being othered.
THANK YOU! I've always hated the term "bi de balada" that people use here in Brazil, always with negative conotations, usually directed towards a girl that likes to be sexual with other women at parties (the direct translation would be "party bi"). Let people experience their sexuality in whatever way they are comfortable with! People are all different from each other and it's okay to use labels if they work for you, but we'll never be able to categorize every single romantic/sexual experience that's humanly possible. Accepting fluidity and change is key.
Yes it does actually. They're not straight if they're attracted to at least one same gender person. By definition that makes them queer. Whether they use that label is a different conversation.
@@cockycookie1 the queer identity is more political/social than anything else. If you don't agree with the definition or even the use of "queer" as an identity, you aren't queer. There's no way to definitively categorize all sexual experiences.
I don't think Hannibal was queerbaiting . Hannibal was in love with Will.
True. Seriously, the show ended with a song, *LOVE-CRIME* as Will took both of them down the cliff, because he can't see Hannibal prisoned once again and himself trapped in a marriage he doesn't want, just to not become what he thinks is a predisposed in him.
Hannigram!
The writers did say they were in love!
@@matxalenc8410 changing stories from their source material to make them gay is pandering to a demographic.
@@matxalenc8410 yep! And who knows what could've happened if the show had continued past where it had ended
@@madcircle0461 or Bryan Fuller wanted to make it more interesting and put his own spin on it. I liked that he gender flipped the some characters so it was more diverse. It wasn’t pandering to anyone. Except I guess himself because he wanted to do it. Also Margot was a lesbian in the books from what I understand, right?
I’m pretty sure the tv series is not canon in the book series, so stick to the books if you don’t like it that much.
I'm just gonna add this; Bryan Fuller, an openly queer man and the Producer of the TV series Hannibal, has confirmed multiple times that he would have made Will and Hannibal a couple if it were not for censorship since Queer Media is still listed as R rated/Adult content due to homophobia. So often times Queer content creators hint at a possible attraction or relationship instead of outright creating one because they aren't allowed to actually portray a queer relationship especially a sexual one without having the show be either canceled, banned in multiple countries, and/or have their ratings changed. Not to mention the number of straight puritans that want their queer content to be squeaky clean and unproblematic, making the relationship between Will and Hannibal even less likely to have ever even been considered by studio executives. So I don't think the Series Hannibal ever intended to Queerbait (and I personally think it didn't), TV shows like Supernatural, Teen Wolf, and Sherlock however are clearly doing and have done it all on purpose because they know that queer people are desperate for diverse and interesting representation.
Supernatural wasn't doing it to court gay people, imo. The reality is that the fandom, which includes a lot of straight women that fetishize m/m romance, had long shipped Sam/Dean and eventually Cas/Dean. The "queerbaiting" in the show was much more fanservice to a community that enjoyed shipping characters than queerbaiting. Supernatural has a pretty extensive history of engaging with the fandom like that.
I also don't mind queerbaiting if it's not just a promotional thing. Subtextual gayness is great. I find it a lot more engaging than just 'here are some gays!' pandering that I've seen in some shows. At least with subtextual gayness, there's room for everyone to enjoy possibilities about a character. Sometimes a viewer's imagination is better than what the creators would do. And, while being gay is more acceptable than it was when I came out as bisexual 21 years ago, there are still many places in the US where _it is not._ So having some characters who are gay but never open about it doesn't feel wrong to me.
@@Overquoted I get what you mean by fanservice for spn, and that's what I always thought too. Until the show ended. After the I love you confession it became almost comical how the showrunners started backtracking immediately, never addressing it again within the last few episodes of the show and now most of the actors saying it should be interpreted as friends. (except the guy actually playing the gay angel) The show is even now hilariously terrified of its actual fan base, still trying to cling to an audience they wanted the show to be for (military, straight men, conservatives etc). its a whole mess and a new level of queerbating that is absolutely fascinating. Books should be written about it.
@@liabe18 The CZcams creator Sarah Z has a long and fascinating video about the controversy over queerbaiting and conflicts between the show runners and the fandom on Supernatural. You should check it out if you are interested in the topic.
@@prenticeclark1454 yeah i saw it, she should post an update haha - but probably not worth the fuss..
Interesting how literal cannibalism is more kid friendly than a gay relationship 🤔
When you see a show or movie where a same sex pair have the chemistry that you know would be called a romance if it were a man and woman. When it gets extra with depictions people shouldn’t feel wrong about recognizing it.
Sorry to Johnlock fans, ever since I was a little girl reading the books, Sherlock has been my asexual and aromantic idol. I kinda felt attacked when John said to Sherlock to call Irene Adler because 'a normal relationship would complete him as a human being'. I know it's not intended, but the phrasing kinda felt hurtful to me (I know people will say I'm being too whiny, but just saying I KNOW it was not meant as an attack on the asexual and aromantics)
I totally get this and also it's not a healthy idea for anyone, no matter what your sexuality is, that a relationship "completes" you. We are complete already, a relationship won't fix anything or make you happy in the long run, that's an inside job.
(Saying this as an asexual myself) Even if it would totally make sense, I would probably feel uncomfortable if (this version of) Sherlock was confirmed asexual. It just leans too heavily into the misconception that we are cold, calculating, unfeeling robot people.
@@UmbraKrameri That's interesting, because the way I saw (this tv series version) Sherlock is that he tries to seem cold and calculating (sibling rivalry maybe? Maybe just a way to protect his feeling from getting hurt by pushing people back due to the trauma his sister put him through?) but he isn't really. He cares about his friends and family, deeply. He gets excited about things, he is emotional, remember John's stag night? The way he got teary eyed hearing how the client got broken hearted about what happened with the 'ghost' she dated? That's empathy right there. The asexual examples we have are Eurus (I know, she says she had sex, but from how she describes it, it sounds like an experiment in which she enjoyed the physical results, no sexual attraction towards another there), who is an unstable criminal who killed many people; and Mycroft who described other humans as 'goldfishes' compared to him, the ones he cares about are either his blood or people who are important to those who are blood. And the way by which he shows his care is very calculating and cold (though there are parts where he does show respect to human life in a way that can maybe be seen as more 'emocional'?). So for me, the one example we would have of a non-cold, calculating ace would be Sherlock. But I understand that's how I interpreted it and other people can have other points that can start a nice conversation on the matter.
@@UmbraKrameri I guess that kind of comes back to whether it is better to have bad representation or no representation
I 100 percent agree with you. I always saw Sherlock as aroace (even when I didn't know what aro or ace was).
Please know that SPN is trying to walk back Castiel’s cannon homosexual declaration of love to make it "straight" or "heavenly". If you are passionate about representation I highly recommend watching Bob Wess' video about what happened at the last convention.
I ended up watching that episode (where Castiel confesses his love) by accident on tv a few weeks ago having not been a fan of the show except seeing it as a kid, and when it got to the scene where Castiel confessed, the whole atmosphere changed and I was like "is he gonna confess his love to him now or something" as a joke, but then he did and I was like 😲. Not in a bad way. lol It was a really nice confession scene, I thought. idk whether it was intentional or not, but the actor who play played Castiel reallllly had me convinced that he was in love with Dean. I mean it felt so... sincere. I'm not a fan of the show, so forgive me for being ignorant of stuff. Just thought it might be interesting to hear the perspective of someone who's not really a fan of the show, and only saw a few episodes yearssssss before all of this.
@@harperbird1034 This is really good to hear actually! Thank you so much for sharing! ❤
This term is not used in situations where it should nearly as much. Instead it is overused in other situations where the term doesn’t really apply. 🏳️🌈💖
All the Marvel fans that got upset when Anthony Mackie said Bucky and Sam were not a couple 🤦🏽♀️
you should watch are they gay’s video about it, which makes it pretty clear how the writers mislead queer audiences
@@andreaf8404 also james somerton's videos
@@cravenlunatic1 YES!!!!
I wonder how queer baiting relates to the will-they-won’t-they type of relationships like Pam and Jim or Ross and Rachel (edited, I see you wondered that too!)
with the logic of the video, it´s also super bad because it should keep people interested and make money. That´s what the whole industry is about.
And i don´t really get the problem here. I am allowed to have an ambivalent relationship in my real life. I am allowed to joke about homosexual tensions with my friends. I have friends calling their relationship to their best friend a "bromance" and act like there is "more" between them, just for fun. It is a part of the real life, so why cut it from movies? Because you can make money with it? Then you have to cut all relationships.
i´m bi myself, and it is always great to have appropiate representation, but there is also nothing wrong with enjoying Show that just tease the subject. It also helps not making it any taboo
@@__-zb9vz I think the problem is in the pattern of same gender = almost always just the tease part, fans get ridiculed for seeing a potential romance. Whereas male/female = will they won’t they almost always ends up as ‘they do’ and literally no-one is surprised. If the two outcomes were more even I don’t think it’d be a problem, and it’d be more fun for viewers if it was harder to predict if a potential ship would sail or not. I do think there’s some nuance to it though in that sometimes it feels like the writers might’ve been trying to add stuff that could add to a queer interpretation they felt might make some people feel seen even though it’s never explicitly canon, or they just felt it would be fun, and then some other examples feel incredibly cynical and forced (especially when it’s in marketing outside of the show itself).
Eleanor's comments in the Good Place wasn't queerbaiting. She is canonically bi and was even Tahani's soulmate in one or more of the reboots. It's just that's the main relationship the writers wanted to pursue was Chidi and Eleanor and the plot of the show itself had so much to say that after the end of the first reboot we only see the last one fully played out. I feel like saying Eleanor's behaviour is queerbaiting is bi erasure :/
*I'm truly sick and tired of same sex relationships having to either be gay or queer baiting. I'm queer (bi, pan, I don't give a sh¡t, I am open) but I love my friends too & I'd kill to have some of these close relationships that people like to cry 'queer-bait'. Yes, I do believe that more representation should be made but people need to stop with the excessive mis-labeling.*
totaly get you, aro ace with intense platonic crushes, I live for the portrail of close and affectionate platonic relationships! My best friends are somewhat sexualy attracted to eachother and ones partner is just super chill. If we go out togeather there is no way of telling who is togeather with who or what kind of attracted, it is glorious and genuinly nobodies buisness but ours. Humans are social creatures, we need affection and touch to be genuinly happy, not just from one person we also sleep with . . .
Honestly the biggest apeal in critical role is just how cozy and close those friends are, two have the joke of being work husbands, they all are all over eachother with no need to make it all about the real life couples, the husbands cheers his wifes fictional romance on, the other flirts a lot in character with one of th eother guys. . . . they are just so comfortable with eachother . . . the extreamly fun roleplaying is just an extra ^^
. . . . and then there are comments calling one wife a slut for cuddeling with her and her husbands best friend, he also cuddles with if given the opportunity. Or tons or comments about pitying the other husband for another guy nad his wife play twins and get very cozy while doing so, claiming it scheating and he has to be so jealouse but honestly . . . If you are jealous of your spouse having friends and familiar affection for someone else. . . . you got a serious problem and the husband clearly does not share it.
I am all for openly trans, enby, gay and bi people, but there are more nuances out there and demending explicit scenes where they just do not fit for some twisted validation and demonising friendcrushes is not the way to go. How romance gets written in generell has to improve, there are maybe 4 couples I aprove of as healthy, belivable an delightful romances I can recall easely . . . .it is not just a queer rep problem
I stopped getting invested in Sherlock because of how much contempt the creators seem to have for their audience
Like Gattis and Moffat haaaaated us 😂
Glad to see that Bones is FINALLY getting a mention on this channel, but what I think sets it apart from most other examples is that shipping actually happened in-universe as well. Pretty much from the start, Angela was constantly hoping for Booth and Brennan to get together, and even if they were less “interesting” after they did (don’t entirely agree with that assessment), their personalities didn’t really change all that much. They were able to be stronger and more balanced as a whole than they ever were as individuals.
didnt think the take would actually cover supernatural but here we are. thank you for actually discussing how queerbaiting is inherently harmful in that it satisfies homophobic viewers when it comes to fictional stories (which should NOT be something so normalized but that says a lot about how the industry works in a post-hays code era). destiel was the punchline to virtually every joke about this for over a decade and as fans we were made to feel like we were the crazy ones for seeing something so clear to us - and something that held actual textual proof! it didn't help that a couple writers and other members of the show actually ARE queer and fought very hard for that confession scene to get green-lit, despite it ending the way it did, and after all that, we are STILL being instructed not to discuss it with the cast at conventions (the show's been over for nearly a year now). a lead actor that wasn't involved in the confession scene recently went off on a long, homophobic rant about it, which says a lot about the environment people part of the show had to endure that wanted it to happen. castiel's identity is "still up to interpretation" and the scene being a literal homosexual declaration of love is still being treated like something that should not be talked about, like it was something explicit, dirty or inappropriate. it's so important to call this out and hope that at some point enough people are going to be fed up and actually enact change. thank you so much for covering this, ladies!
00:17 Short Answer: YES
Long Answer: You have to have been promised something that was not delivered to have been BAITED. Straight artists (or at least presumed straight) performing queer roles that represent queerness authentically, NOT queerbaiting. People exploring gender/sexuality as their own means of self-discovery, NOT queerbaiting. Saying completely unrelated phrases like "I love my girls" - how could you even mistake that for queerbaiting, stop trying to score woke points online, Kailee, FFS!
Oligopolies promising queer representation and it's a 2 second scene of background characters - THAT is queerbaiting (although honestly Disney stans, how many times are you going to fall for this shit?)
It feels weird to even use queerbaiting when talking about real people. Fiction that queerbaits is usually made by straight/cis folk trying to score brownie points in a way that doesn't piss off the homophobes (these two men have a deep and close relationship that fans can imagine as queer... but they're really not, so it's okay!). But people in real life aren't trying to do that because there's still a stigma against being queer; there's no huge benefit to someone coming out as gay or not conforming to their assigned gender in public. Plus, unlike fiction, we don't know everything that's going on in their life. Even celebrities. As you pointed out, we don't even have a way to know if someone is definitely straight or not; they could be in the closet or still trying to figure things out. And yelling at them for stepping out of the box isn't going to help matters there.
@@animeotaku307 It really must be hell trying to work it out under the celebrity spotlight - it’s hard enough in every day life! I’ve heard from plenty of straight guys who took time to explore and date/sleep with men before finally realizing they were in fact straight. How do you navigate that with an audience? If you declare yourself as one thing or another prematurely, some portion of the media and fanbase is going to hang you later if you then identify differently, what a nightmare that would be…
I'd love to see you do a video on why live action kids shows aren't as popular as they used to be after the golden age of Disney Channel and Nickelodeon
Its because they're all on Tik-tok & CZcams now & so are their viewers.
@@AveGoddess
Still, there are live action kids shows, especially on streaming services that don't get the type of attention they should
Edit: the live action kids show industry seems to be settling for mediocrity (excuse me if I'm paraphrasing Friendly Space Ninja) and hasn't tried to compete with social media with creative but well executed storylines, even when those shows are on streaming services. The most popular live action kids show from a streaming service in recent memory was A Series of Unfortunate Events.
@@AveGoddess What are? The shows are on TikTok and CZcams?
@@mynameisreallycool1 All The Kids are on phones, CZcams, Tik-Tok, etc. ...I mean its obvious, thats all my sister's kids watch now, when they used to watch all the Disney shows. Now they are constantly on VR Games🎮 & viewing CZcams & Instagram. ...do you even KNOW Any Kids in modern times??? Catch Up!
There are a few break throughs in children's cartoons like "Steven Univers"," She-Ra", "Owl House"(who got canceled) . If anything children's cartoons are more inclusive than most adult shows
Now can you make a video about creators seeing the audience reading a character as queer and make it cannon? Like Valencia in Crazy ex-girlfriend and Petra in Jane the virgin. Please!
I don't care about queerbaiting because I like "will they, won't they" dynamic more than canon romances. The only thing that's fucked up is when the writers or actors vehemently deny the dynamic and act like audiences are crazy for seeing it.
I both wanted Rizzoli and Isles to be a couple but also long for the main duo in a show to just be friends. I wasn't touched by the promotional material because I didn't have access to a TV or internet for almost a decade because poverty, then I binged it at the recommendation of my mom.
Unrelated to the video topic, I will forgive Rizzoli and Isles a lot for 3 reasons. A girly (way more than Bones) autistic woman into gross things, and how they handled the tragic suicide of one of the main cast, Lee Thompson, and just centering around 2 women in male dominated fields.
While Bones had more ladies dominating in their fields, it always feels like they all defer to Booth, the lead male character. So to see a show where everyone and everything revolves around two women, that could have a great friendship that I personally saw as Isles would go there but respects Rizzoli and is legit happy with their friendship as it is, flirty moments and all.
At the same time, I sometimes like to think that Rizzoli can finally open up romantically to Isles in Paris, where she's away from the oppressive homophobia in the US and the stigmatized stereotype of being a lesbian in law enforcement.
Again, I have the luxury of not seeing interviews or promotional material
Def call it out when its for on screen characters bcos the way they are presented is def controlled and super deliberate from angle, lighting, script, editing etc. all the way to marketing!
For real life ppl, they might be exploring, they might just interact in different ways, or they might be queer but don't owe it to anyone to say anything until they want to - leave them alone. pls.
Exactly
I still disagree with Luca being seen as queerbaiting. You can relate the story to being gay & coming out the closet but that doesn't mean they're queerbaiting. The same way people understand how mutants' storyline in X-men 2 is similar to being gay, why can't people understand the same for Luca.
Thing is, why are they so keen on writing a coming out story if they refuse to have queer characters?
@@mimimurlough it's not coming out story it's just similiar
@@lavenderbambi3501 very similar.
@@mimimurlough yuh
I don't see Luca as queerbaiting. The thought that they could be something other than friends didn't even come to my mind.
As far as the Cas/Dean situation I really didn't feel like there was a ton of queer subtext but I believe it's because of how many times I've been burned by queerbaiting. When Cas said "I love you" and DIED....I was fucking furious...way to bury your gays. And even so I am of the opinion that more straight, cis men should say I love you more in popular media. I love how much Sam and Dean said I love you to each other and other men they considered family. It was beautiful & I want more positive masculinity in media
I think the Cas/Dean situation was happening both in the fandom and in between the members of the show. As Misha has expressed before his desire for that plot to continue. On the other hand jensen Ackles, had said that he always thought they were friends.
Also we have to consider, that the show continued for so long due to fan support. So since season 2 they were making the script as they went. To add a queer plot was not outside of possibility.
Their refusal to clarify and definitely answer the question, can be blamed on creative discrepancies. They went with the route that could appease both the audiences and the direction.
I personally think it was a weak ending. But i had seen the characters die and resurrect so many times, that i didn't really care that much. The value of that couple, lives in the content created by the fans, more than the one that we got.
This straight guy remembers watching the first season with Castiel and thinking: Well, Castiel really likes Dean. I personally (since we see that Castiel’s host has a wife and child he deeply loves) always thought that that meant that Cas loved who he was more so than what he was. I mean, not entirely sure an angel or any being that is so far beyond us we can’t really relate can have a gender anyways.
However, Castiel was clearly in love with Dean for most of the show, and I’m fairly certain, based on Dean’s character he knew and would have been interested, as Dean clearly comes off as bisexual. I mean, he routinely isn’t afraid to tell anyone he finds attractive that he finds them attractive and downright flirting with them.
@@ryanedwards7487 ok that's fair
I love Dean for many reasons but being a bi icon is definitely one of them. I'm rewatching SN with my mom and I'm excited to see if I pick up on the Cas/Dean vibe more the next time around. Like I said I've been burned by queerbaiting in the past which (I believe) makes me blind to some subtext...like a coping mechanism so my heart won't be broken again
@@mariapaz6379 true true All of your points linger in the back of my mind when it comes to discussing the awesomeness that is Supernatural
Right like they did Dean and Cas so dirty like we didn’t even get to see them reunite in the finale 🤦🏼♀️
One thing I'll say about this, is that it's helpful to see it being talked about (nuances, disagreements and all) because the amount of times I watch something and wonder if I'm seeing something that's not there can make one feel like they'retaking crazy pills. This video alone is so validating cause there are a number of "would be couples" I've personally noted over the years. Hopefully things get better, in the meantime, thank God for fanfiction
Try being an aro ace. Not only do I get romantic plotlines shoved down my throat, but the tiny handful of explicitly ace characters are portrayed as freaks or weirdos. And in queer spaces, asexuality is either dismissed as a "fake meme sexuality" because of how kids on Tumblr portray it, or told I have no right to identify as queer at all because, as ace-exclusives have informed me, I will never be beaten up for _not_ holding someone's hand when I walk down the street.
Billie Eilish is dating a homophobic dude WHILE putting that subtext in her videos. Thats the problem.
She is dating someone homophobic
Hannibal wasn't queer baiting. Hannibal was in love with Will, they said it. It's canon lol.
You don’t even need to be questioning your sexuality to kiss or cuddle with another girl, there are plenty of cultures where that kind of physical affection is present in platonic relationships. The whole idea that relationships can be cleaning categorised into platonic, romantic and sexual just doesn’t map usefully on to reality.
I still find it sad that all representation of close relationship have to end up in some romantic connection and so everything needs to end on romantic or sexual consumation and i would love to see more representations of friendship that do not have to end up such consumation. Its like our society is orienting all intimacy towards romance but not enough towards friendships
I clicked on this video, slightly curious to see if you had included NBC Hannibal among this list and was mildly surprised when you had. Most people like to dub this show as queerbait but it is not queerbaiting in the least. Hannibal is a love story. The relationship between Hannibal and Will is explicitly canonized in season 3 and the producer of the show along with the actors have confirmed/shown support for it. The only reason they never got to explore the depth of Will and Hannibal’s relationship is because of the censorship that went on back then.
As a straight old millennial who grew up in a conservative household, I am very thankful for videos like this to educate me. I had no idea that queerbaiting and queer coding were the opposite sides of the same coin. I had no idea about any of this.
They have shit takes as well like the insanely misogynistic female gaze take or the himpo one
In Billies situation, i don’t see how that’s queerbaiting, I know tons of people Who act just like this including myself with their friends without it actually being romantic in anyway. People were downright demand her to state her sexuality, and then assumed she’s straight From her last talking about her sexuality around 4 years ago. real people don’t owe the public shit about their sexuality
Yes they do owe us. They are celebrities who have a lot of influence over a lot of people. They have that responsibility.
One of the problems I have with the queer baiting accusations is that it is often steered at close friendships showed on television and in media, as if insinuating that if two people are abnormally close it must be romantic. I don't like this insinuation because in my personal experience, my closest friendships have often been more emotionally intimate than my romantic relationships, and whenever intimate friendships pop up on screen everyone assumes they must be secret lovers because many people see romantic love as the ultimate type of love (something I don't personally agree with). I do still understand though why people get angry at queer baiting, the LGBTQ+ community is so underrepresented in media that people just want more, and they deserve that.
While I agree with your statement I must point out that in similar situations where the couple is straight and just friends, the cast/producers/etc dont usually laugh or ridicule fans for thinking there might be more. They either stay vague (for the will they wont they lure) or say that its not a plan 'for now'. That to me is the biggest issue. When its fans of queer couples the thought is dismissed in often cruel ways, or played up in a mocking fashion. Not cool
@@pingidjit or if they stay vague they get accused of queerbaiting. It's a catch 22. The only solution is time, time for society to get less conservative, time for more shows with LGBTQ couples to be produced. And with that time there would be space for shows to have good, powerful friendships without having to deal with accusations of queerbaiting.
Agreed. How sad is it too that male friendships are so rare on screen that we immediately assume they must be gay because they show emotion
This is a really complex topic, so thanks for bringing it up and exploring it a bit. Intentional queerbaiting is a really gross practice and it does deserve to be called out when it happens. But I do think there are instances where it's hard to tell for sure, and there is also something to be said about the issue of excluding asexual and aromantic experiences from the term "queer" here. Specifically, Sherlock is a really sore topic for me as an aroace person because there are so many moments that I and a lot of other ace/aro people identify with really strongly with our experiences that are held up as examples of "queerbaiting" by a lot of the fanbase and people tackling this topic who see "queerness" only as same-sex attraction. For those us us who aren't gay but also aren't straight, the term "queer" tends to be much more comfortable, but we tend to face a fair amount of exclusionism from both straight and gay spaces because we don't fit either label (depending on where one falls into the spectrum and cross-sections of other orientations not withstanding). Which is something that I personally saw reflected in Sherlock a lot and resonated really strongly with me.
I don't agree with the treatment of some parts of the fanbase by the creators, but I can honestly sympathize with how tiring it is to repeat over and over that no, the relationship is not what other people expect it to be or want it to be, because that's a big part of my own life with real people, too. For this to then be turned and used as proof of queerbaiting by so many people, it feels like I'm getting kicked out of the one space I feel somewhat comfortable in, queerness, and invalidates the very aro-ace experience of constantly having your statements of the nature of your relationships or your own feelings questioned by others who assume they know better than you do. It's incredibly frustrating and stressful to feel erased when there are so few things one can point to and go, "this here, this is my experience, this is what this feels like!" Not to say that other queer experiences being erased by queerbaiting is okay, it's absolutely not. I just think there should be more space for people to listen and open their minds about other kinds of queer experiences than maybe they've been aware of, and not shutting out those people for not having the same kind of queer experience that they do.
as a aroace, I can sympathise a lot, both which sherlock, which did indeed have some queerbaiting, but also was inherintly a queer story, just not an outright gay one, but even more with good omens. The book adresses even that people assume aziraphel is gay because of his attire and mannerisms but that he is *NOT*! He is a sexless being, asigning the lable of gay simply makes no sense for him and Crowley and him are already repesentation as they are without forcing them to become something they are not. They are a love story, just an ace one!!!
Having people treat opposite sex attraction as a disprovment of queerness in *BI* characters enrages me to no end, stop treating gayness like a badge of honor and look down on everyone who is not that showey and explicitly not straight, it is disguisting.
Queer solidarity and pride should be about embracing and celibraiting all the nuances and colors of the rainbow, not just one extream and shaming everyone who id not as "commited" or willing to twist to their expectations!
Maybe media is just rarely great at portraying normal, healthy human relationships full stop. Because our culture has some effed up ideas about them.
You make some great points here, but I think you miss one of the most troubling aspects of this phenomenon. A lot of the "queer baiting" is actually fan-generated shipping. Many cis straight female fans today seem obsessed with "uncovering" secret gay ships among their favorite male celebrities, Harry Styles and Louis Tomlinson being perhaps the classic example. Maybe they were and maybe they weren't, but the possibilities that two boys could be affectionate with their friends seems to be off limits. Wattpad is full of fan fiction by straight writers imagining and fetishizing gay male relationships, which is fine except when it returns us to rigid norms that we seemed to have happily cast off decades ago. It's there in fiction, too, even on this channel, in the determination to see queer coding every time a character veers off the path of retrograde gender conformity or has a deep bond of love for a friend which may be repressed romance but might also be the kind of loving friendship that was celebrated in literature from the Epic of Gilgamesh until the late nineteenth century. It's related to the fetishizing of gay male relationships for female audiences in bestsellers like *Red, White, and Royal Blue*, among others.
Having grown up, straight but what was considered at the time "effeminate" because of an inability/unwillingness to live up to gender expectations, in the deeply homophobic 1970s and 80s, when a guy wouldn't dare hug or even put his arm around a friend for fear of being accused of being gay, I fear that some young progressives today are unintentionally sending us back to a new era of rigid gender norms such as I have not seen since the 80s. They come at it from the other end of the political spectrum and opposite intention, but embrace the same narrow way of defining masculinity and femininity. It's tragic because so many people in their teens and early twenties, celebrities and otherwise, are eager to experiment with their sexuality and gender expression and are being sent the message that they have to choose a side or being condemned for queer baiting.
It seems like a lot of fans get upset when they ship same sex characters who are close friends and it doesn't happen in the show or movie.
Falcon and the Winter Soldier were shipped so hard and the show is about their friendship helping them to move on from losing their other friend, Captain America, and finding their place in the world without him - no romance on this show.
Sherlock seems to me to be asexual (he demonstrated zero interest in anyone of any gender) and John married a woman and had a child with her, again fans still shipped them.
Superwoman has an explicitly gay character with genuine depictions of gay relationships throughout the show so why is superwoman's friendship with a woman queerbating.
I love and enjoy LGBTQ+ relationships in media, but I also like the depiction of close relationships without anything sexual being involved just as much. After all, in real life people will experience more platonic relationships than sexual ones.
Agree with you on all those points. Supergirl though I would say queerbaited because although the relationship between the women would seem platonic, they way several cast members treated fans who felt differently was cruel. Meanwhile they included edits in the show where the actresses looked at each other 'that' way or said something in a 'could be perceived as more than platonic' way. They take several shots of scenes. They didn't NEED to choose those cuts. They did it to keep LGBTQ+ fans engaged and then ridiculed them at cons in front of hundreds of others. So yeah, Id say Supergirl definitely fits the queerbaiting label, even with its well done queer representation in Alex.
I wasn't even ever one of those fans. I watched the first two seasons and then lost interest. But when I heard about how fans were treated on multiple occasions... I knew I was done with the show for good. Even if they did fire a cast member for his part in some of it (rather let him 'decide' to move on from the show).
@@pingidjit I definitely did not know about how they treated fans which is a shame. Fans are everything for a show. I haven't watched in the last 2 seasons either but maybe it's for the best it is coming to an end then.
I shipped Stucky but I never expected the writers to make it canon. However I was terribly pissed when Steve abandoned his best friend along with all the other friends he had made for a decade to be with the woman he had been in love with ages ago. It seems that the end of the line came sooner than expected for Steve. He gets to live his apple pie life while his best friend gets torture into insanity. Bravo Steve! I dont know what the writers were thinking.
While the Britney x Madonna kiss was done for shock value, Britney was my favorite singer in the world at the time, and that happened less than a month after I came out. So, to me, it was an incredibly big deal.
Queerbaiting used to mean something before fandom used it for complaining about their gay ship not being made canon despite not having actual bassis, i won't say name AHSHEVOLTRONSHEAJGES
I mean, if every word lost its meaning because of how some people used it, I'm pretty sure all language would be dead by now.
Why did Once Upon A Time not get even a mention here?
Their explicit queer baiting for years and cast directly attacking fans who supported the queer couples is not suddenly made up for because they gave fans shitty representation FINALLY in its last season. OUAT was toxic to the queer community and the fact that producers and cast openly participated in it, and then were defended by other cast who weren't the least bit paying attention caused real life harm to its fan base.
Disney is much more toxic than Luca or Frozen.
You guys could do a whole freaking episode on OUAT and still not cover all the bs that went on. Even Yvette Nicole Brown got her nastiness involved in it all and she was just a voice for one episode. Her twitter rants were horrific, as well as Adam (producer), Michael Coleman (Cast-Happy...ironic since he was one of the worst on twitter), Sean Macguire (Cast-Robinhood, encouraged fans to kill themselves if they couldnt 'get a life'), and Ginnifer Goodwin (Cast-Snow White, who played a much lesser role on twitter but no less harmful messages).
If you are referring to Emma and Regina, I never saw it. They both had a romantic partner they were into. Sure, they were co-parenting and they became good friends, but it never saw anything sexual between them
@@AnzuBrief Not just them, but yes they were the main bait. If you watch again, before they are attached to any men (aside from Graham whom neither had feelings for), you see looks and phrases said between them that were purposefully chosen. Again, shows like these do numerous takes. So why keep the edit that even hints at more if it's not the story your telling? The edit viewers saw was the edit they chose. Meaning they wanted queer fans to notice those things.
And again they were just the main pair, but not the only one.
I am in love with this latest take! It really delves into something I've struggled with for much of my life as a queer man. How you end up with saying we should allow individuals the space and freedom to explore their sexuality hits home. I believe that nature codes for bisexuality, while the nurture side adjusts from there to account for social factors. To be a social creature is to feel attracted to other members of your own species, right?? I cannot tell you how many times I have seen individuals wanting to explore their non-preferred sexual orientation when they've met the right person. And feel unable to do it for all the wrong reasons. And how painful it is to live your life with that. Relationships are deep and complex, and having the respect from your friends and family to truly face your own emotion and live life to the fullest. It's meaningful. And we both straight and gay characters in our are allowed to honestly explore the other side of the fence. And to see they might be a little bisexual. You've no idea what that means to me as a queer person. With this type of representation, queerbaiting type of representation, a part of your soul is essentially locked inside the closet. Even if your don't want it to be. And that is not okay.
I've always thought that one reason why gay men "act gay", at least in certain situations, is to protect themselves. The type of disrespectful treatment a queer person can potentially receive when queerbaiting is a common tool used in our media is...not good. Certain types of queer-coded behavior seems to scare away those whom have been "queerbaited".
I'm straight and I've just always had a problem with characters being played with like this. I think it's unfair to the people who can be in same-sex couples to lie to them. Also, growing up, it would make me scared when a friendship was jokingly shown in a romantic light (I was scared of what it could mean and homophobia was stronger then.), while if I saw an actual same-sex couple I felt worried about what everyone said about them, but it was more of a relief, like when I saw Uranus and Neptune were really a couple in Sailor Moon. However, I feel like women get happier representation, because I have never rooted for Dumbledore's story. You don't just get sympathy after having hid the fact you were going to join Wizard-Hitler because the character is gay. I feel like women have to be nice more, while men have this excuse of being affected by homophobia and lack of love.
I was confused by Sherlock. I thought for sure they were an item because everyone in the show acted like they were even if nothing explicit happened. But, the routine of the show got boring so I took a break from watching and when I went back to watch a new episode, suddenly John was getting married to a random woman. She was cool and I liked her but I had no idea where their relationship came from. I thought it would have been fine if John and Sherlock's relationship remained mostly subtext so they could focus on the crime of the week - but then suddenly the show no-homoed really hard and mocked the audience for being aware of the queer coding that was clearly intentional in the earlier episodes.
That's actually almost straight from the books. In Doyle's original stories, Watson's marriage kinda feels like it comes out of nowhere, and forces a sudden change in the day to day character dynamics of the two leads. Then Doyle killed her off just as abruptly, to partially restore the old dynamic.
Holmes and Watson are each other's life partners, from Doyle's version to Moffat's. They are each other's nearest and dearest, and even Watson's brief marriage didn't change that. It just happens to be a platonic relationship. In Moffat's version, I always took the "these two are definitely a couple" comments from other characters as a reflection of our modern society's common belief that your life partner must also be a romantic partner, particularly for males, as adult male friendships are expected to be more shallow. Moffat's Watson seems to hold the same general societal views, so argues the assumptions without openly accepting the reasoning behind it:
From Doyle's version to Moffat's, those two character clearly love each other, and can never truly separate their lives once they're inter-tangled. That love just happens to not be of the romantic or sexual sorts.
Moffat (and Gatiss) annoyed the crap out of me with some of the later Sherlock material, but accusing the show of queerbaiting is just ridiculous. The only significant change they made in the character dynamics between Holmes and Watson in their version was that their Watson liked their Holmes LESS than the original.
ETA: In Moffat's version, Adler is the only one who "got it." When she said Holmes and Watson were a couple, she didn't do it with any implication of queerness. She was referring to them as inseparable life partners, without any other commentary. I don't think it's an accident that the least "Yep, you're gay" H/W couple comment of the entire series came from the most prominent queer character. She could see the dynamic for what it was.
@@LucyLynette Adler was gay, but she was sexually attracted to Shelock. While Sherlock who I always take for asexual, was sexually and intellectually attracted to Irene. It's not that surprising that she got it better than anyone else.
The Good Place wasn't queerbaiting, it was casual queerness where Eleanor is obviously bisexual, it wasn't the queerness itself that was used as something comedic, but it was the way it broke the tension or something, but otherwise it was not negative in the least.
Next, I prefer subtext over outright "i love you" in shipping. I enjoy overt relationships in fiction, but I never truly ship two characters unless there is a lot of dramatic and romantic tension.
Also, being frustrated by a piece of media because your ship isn't canon doesn't mean you're getting queerbaited... it is very possible too that the ship is canon thanks to subtext. If the creator never denies the queerness (or outright ADMITS there IS queerness, like Fuller lmao), then it isn't queerbaiting.
Individuals cannot queerbait, companies and media can, it's that simple
As an asexual/greysexual person, I would really appreciate it if you could leave Sherlock Holmes and Frozen's Elsa for us asexuals. We are not sure if they are asexual or not but we definitely need some Ace representations in film industry today🙂 That helps more people learn, accept and discuss about this topic and the sexuality spectrum. Thanks
Agreed. Ive thought of both as ace right from the start.
Yess!! Please!
they can be both asexual and gay so whats the problem here
@@lupalugf this is very true, but aromantic representation is if less common than asexual representation, and we'd really like to see it
@@lauradavison8068 i agree but op didnt mention aromantic rep so thats why im confused as to why they cant be gay and asexual
You can see Luca as a LGBT story, however the director did not intended It to be that way. It's based on his childhood and best friend, they're still friends. We can say that the author is dead and start that debate but I don't think they were queerbaiting
I didn't know the film so googled it and saw that the characters are also 12 and 14 respectively. To me, that makes a huge difference to stories featuring adult or older teenager characters. I'm not saying that 12 is too young for people to fall in love, but lots of people just have no interest in romance at that age. I sure as hell didn't. I don't think a film that shows the relationship between two characters of that age is lacking anything if the relationship isn't framed as a romantic one. 12 year olds can of course want romance, but not all of them do.
Why were scenes between Quinn and Rachel included in this? Glee can be accused of a lot of things, but hardly of queerbaiting.
because they did queerbait, specially with promo scenes during s2 and s3 that didnt follow through in the show after
They had queer couples but they purposefully queer-baited faberrry shippers and then made fun of them in the show much like sherlock all though granted they did have better over-all queer representation but the show writers even explicitly said this so...
Also, a show that legally cannot show queer couples (largely because of censorship) and is toeing the line super super hard without making anything explicit because if they do the show will be taken off air and/or blacklisted, is not queerbaiting. There's a difference between "they can be queer but we're not making them queer but we are going to keep teasing it and gaslight you when you get mad about it" vs "if we make them queer the Ministry of State Security will come for us so let's just keep it subtextual".
That's fair I mean it still shows a problem in society but no one should come after the creators for it
@@caspermcgoangle975 Yup, the people you should take it up to in that situation is the shitty government and its policies, and not the creators.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer at least consummated Willow Rosenberg's lesbian relationship, as they did the gay relationship in 6 feet under.
I miss the shows honest enough to show how people actually are.
does anyone else get fed up with walking on egg shells. Everything is offensive
You are way to old to be on CZcams
@@ratmon19 not all young people care for manufactured victimhood
@@ratmon19 I'm young and op is right
@@ratmon19 and there is not any specific age limit to be on CZcams, what u on about?
💯
I really hated the way the show supernatural queerbaited castiel and dean while knowing that they would never allow them to be a couple they definitely deserved better🌈
They should mention merlin. The tension between merlin and Arthur was explosive throughout the entire series and relationship actually well written.
Luca was beautifully written and beautifully done.
Luca is love
Reminder: you are loved.
I loved "Bros" for the single reason that it's a simple, romantic comedy like any other one out there focusing on the relatively petty lives of the two main characters and an improbable huge gesture in the end, but the only difference was they were two guys.
In its simplicity, it was sooooo refreshing.
I'm torn because I want to see more deep, loving relationships that are platonic, and I don't like that depicting someone to be your soulmate or intensely meaningful to you has to be coded as romantic, but I also understand the need for more queer stories. idk before we even things out maybe we should stop with the cishet love stories bc they've clearly had their day in the sun
I always saw Sherlock as an asexual icon.
The inclusion of Faberry (Rachel/Quinn) here makes me feel BEYOND validated.
RIGHT
I agree with a lot of this.
I also want to see close friendships, especially as an aromantic asexual who wants to have a relationship that is similar to romance, while the difference between that and romance is very important to me (because it feels like my relationship with my twin sister), so I strive for close platonic relationships, friends who want to live together forever and do things that society considers to be romantic.
I just finnished watching a destiel queerbating video and this appears on my feed XD
The conclusion to 2021 convention didn't help in beating the allegations 🙂🙂🙂
The one by Sara Z?
@@tannie7092 what convention and what conclusion?👀
😂😂🙈
Honestly, we know that sometimes people are "just friends." But I think some people really don't understand how heartbreaking it is as a gay person to be feel constantly alienated from the media we fall in love with. It is more than true that sometimes people are "just friends" and that friendship itself is a powerful thing. But it seems that that argument is primarily brought up when it comes to same-sex pairings. Honestly, each and every time, we see ourselves on screen, it is so refreshing and the truth is we barely get it. I wish the focus would shift more to friendship between men and women. Or friendship between gay people, especially gay women.
well, imagine how heartbreaking it feels as an ace or bi person, with even less representation to get hate and shit for the little we get for it has to be "queerbaiting" and the representation should have been gay instead . . .
the real crux is, that straight romance rep is everywhere but sucks so hard, that what little gay people get is often superior in quality . . . . how omace gets prortrayed, accepting that bi people are not just gay with another name and that them being in a straighpassing relationship does not make them any less queer . . . exploring that omantic, sexual and aethetic attrations are not always linked and that platonic crushes exist and are just as valid and real then any other . . . there is so much to improve
I liked viewing Sherlock through the lens that I was seeing a close male friendship - I can see why people saw something different. I want more stories that show close and loving male friendship without it having to be sexual - in addition to loving romances for LGBTQ+ relationships. I don't want male friendships to automatically be portrayed or seen as queerbaiting, because friendships are important too. Obviously the distinction between queerbaiting and authentic friendships is going to be blurry sometimes, but it's worth seeing more platonic male friendships that feature both strength and vulnerability.
I never saw anything sexual between Jon and Sherlock, although they clearly love each other platonically. But there are other cases, Erik and Charles in FC for example, you could literally feel the spark between them, they touched each other all the time
Not to spoil if you haven't seen it but Hannibal only makes sense when you've seen it. I never saw it baiting because of the poetry of the whole thing.
I couldn't put phrase it better myself.
I'll say -- having never finished the third season -- I would never consider Hannibal to be queerbaiting. It's pretty evident the whole way through that this is a relationship that under different circumstances could have been Something™ but the relationship is inherently self-destructive hence the Unhappily Ever After.
If anything, it had a Romeo & Juliet quality to it, with the two of them dancing around each other and destroying everything around them to do it.
@@LittleHobbit13 That’s it! That’s exactly it! It’s like if they could have, they would have, and the reason they couldn’t was never because they were men.
I think it really depends if you’re pushing for profit, or just “discovering yourself” by making millions of dollars off of an audience you’re trying to lure in imo 👀
Also Hannibal and The Good Place made their queer characters explicitly queer so idk, it feels wrong to lump those in here 🤷🏾♀️
Sherlock does a service though showing a male relationship that is rarely shown on screen, two men who love each other as really close friends. Only other example I can think of is Superbad. People always have to make the contex a sexual one. Love its more complex then just romantic or sexual.
Their relationship wasn't shown as platonic and the homophobic hateful reactions of the creators don't help your argument either.
@@Mia199603 oh you are right, you win I shan’t speak of it again.
@@Mia199603 It was never shown as anything other than platonic.
Also, Mark Gatiss and his bff are homophobic? Nice one.
I will tell you about this new genre you will love. It's called "buddy-cop movie". It's about intimate male friendship. Also, these are the only example you can think of? For real? House and Wilson, JD and Turk, the guys from HIMYM and Friends, Troy and Abed, Parelta and Boyle and Hitchcock and Scully, Shawn and Gus and the list goes on. I'm pretty sure it's the most popular platonic relationship type on screen apart from family relationships. Also, the Sherlock and John relationship is pretty toxic in the show and the constant fear of beeing mistaken for a couple on John sides does the opposite of helping male platonic love and intimacy.
I'll tell you what, Russian classic literature is probably not your jam. God forbid showing unhealthy relationships in fiction, so that characters could grow through overcoming conflict, right?
It’s a thing that constantly frustrates me when I see intimate friendships on screen that mirror my own and have people call it queer-baiting. While I don’t deny that sometimes that’s exactly what people are trying to do, I also feel like even with Sherlock, these are just two men who love each other a lot in a non-romantic way. Moreover, as we get into a new era where hopefully sexual fluidity is more accepted AND where emotional intimacy with friends isn’t immediately read as sexual or romantic, I think that there’s no real way to have it both ways here. If we want to see a world on tv where men can express emotions around each other and be vulnerable and say “I love you” we can’t shout “Gay!” like people used to do in the 2000s but from a more positive perspective. I watched Rizolli and Isles and I always thought that I really wanted a friend like that. I dunno. I just think that we need to take a step back and stop over analyzing the text some times.
same, like sometimes it is queerbaiting and weaponised, but very often it is not1
Sometimes the queer baiting argument is not necessarily about the the close relationship between the characters between the characters. To continue with your Sherlock example, people became angry over queerbaiting not because Sherlock and John had an intimate friendship that did not become romantic, but because of the constant jokes within the show about the characters being together, followed by the creators vehement denial of any intention to have them read that way. Instead of being, "that wasn't our intention, but I can see how you would think that", it was "how could you even think that? We're being serious, why can't you be?" as if the possibility was a big joke, despite joking about it in the script. While I agree with you, that Sherlock is a beautiful story of platonic soulmates, they could have just as easily done that without the jokes and gaslighting. Just as you say, we should be able to see vulnerability and love in same sex friendships without screaming "gay!", we should be able to have platonic, same-sex friendships without the movie/show creators using a joking attitude to scream "not gay!"
@@gracexcon eminently reasonable
This should have like a content warning for Cas’s death man 🤧 it’s nearly been a year but ouch
I'm tired.
Why does the subtext always have to be the gayness.
Tired of hearing people argue if the gayness should be subtle, hinted, implied, explicit, open.
Why is it so damn hard to have our queer themes, and have deeper sub-textual character feelings/motivations that for once, aren't all about that queerness?
It doesn't have to be one or the other, that queerness doesn't have to be nixed for the sake of greater character complexities.
Gay people's only complexities aren't just 'gayness'. But it doesn't have to be watered down for those other complexities to be explored.
I love your content!! Great video like always! This was perfection. May you do a take on POC-baiting (sorry if that’s not what is called but it is very similar to queerbaiting but with people of color). Many movies try to caterer to people of color by putting in a POC into the movie & pretending in the trailer that the character will have an important role but they do nothing with the character. Ex: Finn from StarWars (who turned out not to be the Jedi and was moved aside for another white Jedi) and black Panther in infinity wars (who only had 8 mins of screen time but was in most of the trailer).
I believe the term is "race-baiting". Good idea by the way.
@@mynameisreallycool1 to be fair Disney SW became a shit show, they had no idea where they were taking those movies, not linear plan for the trilogy. I ship Finn with Rey as they clearly had a connection, but it was replaced by what's-him-named in the next movie. Let's main our Mary Sue girl fall in love with a kin-slayer.
There seems to be an overarching problem these days (even beyond this topic) of people assuming other people's thought processes and motivations, then judging them based on those theories which may or may not be correct. Why is Billie playing with girls in her video? Is she lesbian/bi? Still figuring out her sexuality as a young person? Is it a general celebration of the human range of femininity? Is it meant to exploit the LGBTQ community or Billie herself? Is she just an open, expressive, touchy person not meaning to specifically communicate anything? Was it her own decision or someone else's? Only her close family and friends and she herself would know these things, maybe not even them.
I'll never forget Supernatural getting flack for queerbaiting during season 8 (otherwise known as the gay fever dream season), and then going so hard in season 9 that they had Dean be attracted to a dog but felt the need to clarify how female the dog was. LOL.
And then of course, they gave up and just went back to it. If it's not broke, don't fix it! Literally I will never understand people who try to defend that show for queerbaiting. I watched it in college with a group of friends (male, female, some gay, some straight) and we all were genuinely united in how fruity the show was trying to play Dean. Just let the fruity hunter kiss the gay angel. 😅
Where are all the Supernatural fans?👐🏻💞
Here 🖐
Dean and Cas in the finale was ridiculous. Like, blink and you'll miss it. Utterly underwhelming so I was really confused about all the hype in the media. Had to watch again 🙃
I'm a gay man who's *cough cough* years old and I'm less annoyed by the trope than younger queer people. I've been "shipping" characters in my "headcannons" for decades before I knew those two terms even existed. Chalk it up to low expectations.
The young whippersnappers theses days do (and should) expect more from their media than I did.
Queer aging is like falling in love with a straight girl. You’re invested, and sometimes she drops hints, but in the end she gets a boyfriend.
There are people who are friends who are touchy-feely with one another. It happens in real life and if it happens on-screen, I don't assume anything. While queerbaiting certainly does exist and has happened a lot (Sherlock), by throwing the tern out every single time two women (in particular) hold hands or hug or even touch one another is ridiculous. I can't speak on male friendships because I'm not a man, but women touch and kiss and hold hands and do things playfully all the time and it isn't contingent upon sexuality nor is it trying to imply one. To label any action like that that takes place between two characters/people who have not openly and explicitly stated they are lesbian/bi/queer is what makes the term mean nothing. If everything is queerbaiting, nothing is.
If I see a video and Cardi B is kissing on a woman, so what? There are other videos that do have gay/lesbian/queer people in them. Cardi B performs and does things as a sexual being. So she can do it with whomever she wants to. She doesn't have to justify why she's doing it with someone, And for goodness sake, you'll look at a video and try and judge her sexuality? People ACT in those videos. They can do whatever they want. Again, if everything is queerbaiting, then nothing is and it completely diminishes the meaning of the term.
Sorry but kissing with the mouth is sexual
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl Not always. I used to kiss my mom on the mouth when I was younger. Nothing sexual about that.
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl mouth kisses don’t have to be sexual unless there’s tongue involved.
Yes but kissing on the mouth... is kind of too much
@@ellealine4159 They're called cultural differences. In places like Northern Europe it was an common greeting between close men. There's even pictures of Mikahail Gorbachev doing it.