I find the Choose Your Own Adventure books one of the most interesting books ever because they got a game you can play inside the book with different paths that lead to different outcomes. I don't think many people know about these types of books.
I’m so glad you mention Tana French because I couldn’t point to why her books Felt so different to me than my usual Favorite authors. In the past I was drawn to Ruth Rendell and Francs Fyfield who emitted a similar vibe . But I haven’t found an Author who made me laugh, parrot her lines, for example, you’re not wrong, instead of what we usually say you’re right. That Irish gift of speech that I love is in all her books. If you know of any similar authors, I would love to know. Thank you for your intelligent insightful videos. Aloha
I'm a pretty new reader. I didn't read a full book for 10 years. eek! But this year, I've read 10 books so far. I'm a newbie to reading so this video was really helpful. I'm liking mystery -- but I was confused about the difference of mystery and thriller, etc. This was super helpful. Thank you!
My nerdy English major brain loved this video! I was trying to make a reading spreadsheet a few months ago but actually gave up because of the interplay of medium (e.g., poetry, graphic novel), category, age category, and genre. How detailed to make each (break out “epic” from poetry?), what each would entail (is essay a genre or a form?), where descriptors like “literary” and “classic” fit in. I am definitely overthinking this, but you could easily have a YA fantasy graphic novel or a speculative poetry collection...maybe I could work out how to tag each book with all descriptors that apply rather than trying to format a series of drop down menus. I don’t want to “well, actually” you, but when I took a science fiction class during my lit major, we talked about the hard/soft distinction. In theory, at least, it doesn’t have to do with how prominent or important the science is at all, just whether the science involved is theoretically possible based on our current understanding of the universe or not. So, pandemic book: hard sci fi. Faster-than-light travel: soft sci fi. However, I’ve never heard a book reviewer use the terms that way (so the descriptivist in me would ask whether that *is* what the terms mean, since that’s not how they’re used) and it brings up questions of how much science you need to know to describe a book. Also that distinction is less helpful in picking books you will like than the one you used. Sorry for the essay but this is something I’ve been thinking a lot about since starting booktube 😅
Very helpful review. It made me think of my profile on Goodreads from years ago-which was all in genre/sub-genre terms: "Literature, esp. Asian themes Science Fiction esp. Dystopian/Cyberpunk; Historical Fiction--relative historical accuracy req'd; Fantasy, mature themes, preferably dark & shocking; Crime fiction, with noir themes"
Your distinction between suspense and thriller was really helpful! As genres I don't tend to gravitate to, that's always been a weak point in my genre language! Thanks for another great video
hi mara! wow, that was some serious book-nerd catnip! 😻 enjoyed every minute of it, thank you! 👌🏻 at college (many moons ago) i took classes on mystery/detective fiction and on heroines in literature, taught by rather well-published professors. there was a long wait-list for those classes. but, because every ounce of enjoyment was sucked out of the respective subjects and the reading assignments felt like chores, the drop-out rate was high. i feel like emailing them a link to this video with a note saying, „watch this, then rethink your syllabus and seminar structure“‼️ this video goes into my „saved“ files. 💯 lots of love from tiny-town austria, monica 📚🐾🐾
This is a great video. Thank you so much for putting this together. I'm relatively new to BookTube and there is a lot of vocabulary to learn around here.
Super helpful video! Literature teachers love to plague students with this question and I think it's manageable now when I have a guide, thanks for this👍
Something that I've been thinking about recently is how the big chain bookstore in Canada struggles with marketing/shelving horror in specific. Basically unless you're Stephen King or otherwise trying to market yourself as a horror author (like Paul Tremblay or Joe Hill for example) a lot of books I would consider horror get shelved as General fiction (The Need by Helen Phillips or Bunny by Mona Awad for example). I think it has something to do with the lack of distinct horror tropes (monsters/hauntings/etc) but still overall are compelled narratively and tonally by horrific elements. Then theres the all the 'gothic' horror fiction I can't find cause its thrown into General lol! (Would that be considered literary with horror elements you think?) On a related topic it certainly doesn't help the misunderstanding of YA as a genre or category when YA books are all shelved together with no distinction between genres.
Very true re:horror-- I think because a lot of the books in that genre are kind of "weird" or genre mashups, it gets harder to market them unless they are with popular authors or fall neatly into a certain subgenre (I'm thinking like haunted house, etc.)
This is a really useful video. I loved the genres as a house example and your four umbrella genres make perfect sense. However, I have to say that I disagree with your low fantasy/high fantasy definition. Yes, it's the one used in literary studies but in reality no one who wants to read urban/contemporary fantasy would search for those books with the term low fantasy but would use the search term "urban fantasy". Low fantasy within the fantasy community means a low magic setting, like A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones (at first) and Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. Or books with no magic at all like Sixteen Ways to Defend a Walled City by K.J. Parker or A Natural History of Dragons by Marie Brennan. Just take a look at /r/fantasy subreddit and you will find many many debates about this very same thing. Also really handy in talking about genres, subgenres and types of plots is the model presented by Brandon Sanderson and Mary Robinette Kowal in their podcast Writing Excuses. Their Season 11 deals with Elemental Genres that are based on the central element of the story, or emotion the reader is seeking, and they name 11 genres. For example fantasy is the genre of the sense of wonder and sci fi is the genre of ideas. You can find the episode transcripts of the entire season here: sites.google.com/site/writingexcusesindex/home/index11. Each episode is only 15 minutes long but it's a ton of episodes so you get through them faster by reading.
I enjoyed the definitions and examples of “genre”, “sub-genre”, and “trope” as well as the discussion of “category” vs “genre” and how they could blend. The one thing that I was looking forward to at least being mentioned, but was not, was a list of mystery sub-genres (cozy, noir, etc). I was looking forward to how many sub-genres would be named and the differences between each. When I took a detective fiction class, I realized that I liked cozy mysteries the beat, but am bored with noir and do not like gritty at all. Perhaps sub-genres not mentioned in this video could be a follow up video? (There were other genres that did not have sub-genres listed, either.)
Possibly -- it's just that there are SO MANY subgenres in each genre, it would really take a series of videos, so I'd have to decide if that was a project I'd want to undertake
I loved the level of nerdy specific detail in this video. I definitely agree that knowing specific words for what you like about books makes your reading life better overall. Being able to identify that I like historical time travel books made me find new favourites in the relatively small niche of sci-fi. I think it's interesting to look at how genres change over time. YA in particular seems to discard and redefine its genres relatively rapidly. When I was in middle school YA mysteries were mainly campy novels featuring teen spies a la Ghalleger Academy and now it seems the genre has pushed out those lighter stories and have mysteries with more intensity. Former darlings like paranormal romance in YA seem dead as a doornail but are getting a big resurgence but marketed as contemporary fantasy
Could you make a video recommending best isolated mystery books? I also really like this trope but so far I only consumed it through movies, not books. Great video!
I have a whole playlist of isolated closed circle mystery review videos, so that's where I'd start! Or I have 2 shelves on Goodreads that have all the ones I know about on them with ratings for the ones I've read :)
This was very interesting, and I found some of the distinctions helpful in terms of thinking about books and what I like to read. On a specific one you mentioned, I've always thought of the autobiography vs. memoir distinction to be more scope of the book. Autobiography being more the history of the person's life while memoir is an account of a specific aspect or time period of their life. But the storytelling aspect you were describing definitely rings true too.
This was Fantastic! Thank You SO Much for making this video. I know what I like, but it seems overwhelming at times when you are standing (well, not right now) in a bookstore w all these varieties infront of you. Loved It !!!
Super helpful -- thanks! Have you heard the term Upmarket Fiction? It's mostly used by people in the publishing biz, but seems to be used as an updated version of "Book Club" fiction. Basically commercial fiction with noteworthy writing, or another way to look at it might be well-written fiction that aims to entertain. Examples: Where the Crawdads Sing, The Help, Water for Elephants, Me Before You, Station Eleven. Hey, another way of categorization I don't like and you probably won't either! :)
Yes, upmarket fiction is a really helpful term! I thought about using it, but decided it hasn't gotten enough purchase in general book reviewing (vs. in marketing or book selling) to be relatable... that said, I'd like to see that kind of terminology replace things like "women's fiction," which I low key loathe :D
Very helpful since I like to know the genres and sub-genres if the books I enjoy. Tropes I am not sure of yet, I have to think more about of what I like or maybe don't like. Sorry you had to deal with the treecutters. 😊❤️❤️❤️
A great way to find different genres of non-fiction is to study up on the dewey decimal system and various sub-classifications within it. You could really boil your favourites down that way!
I totally agree with being super specific about what you like. For example, I love a good mystery in my story, but it needs to be cozy. No to anything scary/creepy/horror-y please. I want to figure out a cool puzzle, not to have nightmarish dreams night after night
Within fantasy, I also think of epic fantasy as being a subcategory. To me this is longer series, The Wheel of Time, Brandon Sandersons Cosmere, The Malazan, Robin Hobb. Any thoughts on this?
I divide my fiction genres into categories: Mood - comedy, Drama, Horror Time genre- contemporary, historical, futuristic Demographic Genre: YA, Middlegrade, Adult Then I have my big five: Romance, Speculative (w/ sub genres Fantasy/Scifi and Folktale) Crime, Action/Adventure, and what I call Slice of Life (tends to be what most people call Literary - but I hate the snootyness of that term)
What a great discussion! I would like to share just a few thoughts on some of the genres. When it comes to genres, I like to go back to the classics for the examples of how it all began. On the mystery genre, I distinguish the whodunit from the detective mystery as two distinct subgenres because in the whodunit the reader is in a “race” with the sleuth to figure out the puzzle/whodunit before the reveal at the end. Think your favorite, Miss Marple, and my favorite, Ellery Queen. In the detective mystery, the reader follows the detective along, but all is not revealed to the reader. The ending is more about how the detective solves the case overcoming some difficulties along the way. Think Cormoran Strike. I wish I could remember where I first encountered this definition, but Edgar Allan Poe is often credited with starting the mystery/crime genre. Now, on to the horror/thriller/suspense genre. The Horror genre has been around since the publication of Frankenstein (often cited as one of the first horror stories). The distinction that I make about horror is that it is intended to cause a fear reaction in the reader. In a thriller, the story intends to create a strong emotional reaction (not necessarily fear) in the reader. I think of a roller coaster when I think of thriller. In suspense, the reaction is more of a sense of dread and sometimes culminating in a type of thrill when the action occurs. And, finally on romance, the distinction of a romance from a love story. Nicholas Sparks made the distinction that a romance has a happily ever after (as you said), but a love story may or may not have a happily ever after. While, love story isn’t a subgenre, it is good to make the distinction that readers sometimes think they are getting a romance when what they are actually getting is a love story and they may find themselves disappointed at the end of the book. Thanks for providing wonderful content on CZcams!
I really enjoyed this video. As an experiment or challenge, what do you think of a video doing something similar to what you did with the Kameron Hurley book, where you methodically break other books down through your genre classification? Particularly for those in-between books. For example, how would you personally classify something like The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell? Also, I am personally of the "horror is more speculative than thrillery" school, mostly because I think the uncanny as a thing to contemplate is at the heart of horror, though that doesn't presuppose the actual existence of something supernatural. Which is why I think Cujo and Rosemary's Baby are still in genre horror. But thrillers and horror have their own continuum for sure.
Hmm, that's an interesting idea... maybe! As for The Sparrow, I'd probably call that category: literary (not the genre, I don't think in this one, more the overall tone), genre: SciFi, sub-genres: First Contact & Space Travel
The discussion of the relationship between Fantasy and Sci Fi is interesting. It has helped me articulate my dislike of Fantasy (really High Fantasy which is unwatchable/unreadable for me) but there are certainly fantastical elements in a story that I can deal with if it is based in our world (HP was a perfect combo for the most part). Big Star Wars fan and consider it Sci Fi but many people consider it Fantasy (which used to piss me off). I now just call it a Space Opera and put it in its own category :)
@@TheGoofy1932 Yeah, it's the space element that trips me up when people call it fantasy (though there are definitely fantasy elements in the stories, especially the books), I don't really equate fantasy in stories with space and space travel. Cosmic horror has also been a hard sub genre for me to get into.
Loved this video! The nerd part of me just enjoys hearing about categorizing of objects :) I've also found over the years that my approach to and perspective on genre has really changed - I had a real "snob" period in my early 20s where whenever I did read "genre" (romance/action/adventure/etc.) I perceived it as a guilty pleasure that I couldn't share with others. Definitely not my view nowadays!
My preferred genre is romance and women's fiction, but years ago, I briefly delved into travel writing. Although the authors' descriptions of their destinations were interesting what I loved most was usually the culture clash/fish out of water aspect. I guess these would fall into literary narrative non-fiction. Ones I remember most were Tony Horwitz's Baghdad Without a Map, Riding the Iron Rooster by Paul Theroux, Old Glory: A Voyage Down the Mississippi by Jonathan Raban and Bill Bryson's A Walk in the Woods. It strikes me that I barely read any that were written by women, although I have a copy of Eat, Pray, Love that I never got into. Makes me think that so many of past travel writing by women focused so much on the "novelty" of a woman or women traveling on their own through unstable areas that it kind of became more about that than about the actual travel/culture differences.
How do you avoid just getting burnt out when you read so much? I don’t read half as much but often I find myself reading a book, yawning and thinking - here we go again.
Greetings. Thanks for your awesome summary of book genres. I write in what many call Contemporary Realistic Fiction. But I find it difficult to classify my work within the standard set of KDP categories. Is there a popular category under which CRF fits?
I definitely have discovered a lot of genres and sub genres but also elements of books (tropes, storytelling style, writing style/form, etc) and it can definitely get confusing. I'm actually thinking of doing discussion/educational type videos on different genres and sub genres. I don't know if I will do it but it's definitely an idea I'm considering.
Ohhh this is SO interesting! I literally just started grad school and last week was the week on 'genre', so I'm all up for a more appropriate view of it (cause how they defined genre there, boiii). Also, your explanation of paranormal romance made me wonder: what is the difference between paranormal romances and urban fantasy? I feel like they are often used to denote the same series (Sookie Stackhouse, for instance). Also2, I know you started with saying that YA is not a genre, but I actually feel that it might be, haha. In the same way as literary fiction, especially now that the consensus is "adults read ya too". I feel that when booktubers are discussing middle grade, it is usually in a "this did(n't) work for me, but that might be because I'm not 10 years old", whereas with YA that only happens with young YA. Maybe a division might be happening between YA as an age category being young ya, and ya as a genre being the rest? :'D Anyway, love the video! I was binging your videos yesterday, so when I got a notification today I really hoped it was a new video of yours. :)
Generally speaking, in paranormal romance the focus is on the romance, whereas in urban fantasy the romance is only a side plot and the focus is on the other elements of the story. Here is an interesting academic article that discusses urban fantasy and paranormal romance at length: refractory-journal.com/uf-mclennon/ Like you said, sometimes academia can be a little out of touch with reality, but I think that author does a good job trying to bridge that gap.
I stopped using the term "literary fiction" as I find it to be a coded term to mean Literature deemed worthy of intellectual engagement and worthy of accolades because White educated moneyed people said so. I use the term general fiction, meaning an imagined story that fits into no genre cleanly, but nevertheless has tropes. All books exist on a spectrum of literary quality.
My favorite genre is romance. I have found a new author named Sandra Owens that I am now a fan of. I am reading “All Autumn” by her and it is totally a romance read.
Loved this video - thank you! Curious where you would place a book like Queenie (if you’ve read it)? It almost seems to have elements of women’s fiction, chick lit, contemporary and literary fiction. Also, I really appreciated an earlier comment about “upmarket fiction” or “book club fiction”. I love this “category” or “genre”. Queenie could maybe fit in there too! I’m also curious about your thoughts on how to categorize An American Marriage if you’ve read it. Thanks again!
I personally don't use the term speculative fiction and mainly for the critique that I'm about to share: People ignore horror and let it be subsumed into fantasy and science fiction. (I understand that you don't put horror in speculative.) I see why that happens, but I think it's intellectually lazy and dishonest as the aims of horror are not the aims of fantasy nor science fiction. I say that to mean that fantasy, although in the US is drenched in Euro-centrism, is chiefly considered with the good vs. evil, or the explanation of things seemingly unexplainable (I thinking about folktales, myths, and folklore here). Science fiction is chiefly concerned with the relationship between humans, technology, and the environment. Horror is focused on fear, terror, disgust/revulsion and how a person/community confronts that.
I'm glad you did this video! I agree on what you said at the top about category being the broadest term. I think I got confused on whether or not you were defining terms as they are understood or are defining terms as you understand them. I say that because Women's Fiction as well as Chick-lit are sexist. Furthermore, I don't see how those would be thought of as genres. Those are, to me, pure inventions of marketing. Often a book written by a woman will be called Women's Fiction just because a woman wrote it, it has a female protagonist, and the prose is decent to excellent, but to that end, Women's Fiction has no borders, ya know? Men can and do write Chick-lit (looking at Nicholas Sparks and Kevin Kwan) and it gets venerated because it wasn't written by a woman. While watching this, I felt like your definitions and distinctions upheld oppressive ideas-especially what you said about classics. There are books that we call classics that are actually genre classics. For example, Shakespeare wrote romances and comedies but is seen and talked about as though he was not a genre writer. The Count of Monte Cristo, Robinson Crusoe, all gothic classics, The Lord of the Flies are all examples of genre writing. In fact, genre fiction is the older literary tradition. General fiction rose as part of the Realism movement-which I think is the most enduring artistic movement-and for whatever reason people place that as being more noteworthy. I've watched your channel long enough to know you don't do that personally. I'm pushing back against when you said classics are often literary fiction and then acknowledged that there are also genre classics.
I was aiming for descriptive rather than prescriptive in terms of how I see these words used... though I couldn't totally keep my contempt for the term "Women's Fiction" out completely :D
@@bookslikewhoa I see. Nevertheless the way you described classics is oppressive in that it upholds whiteness and classist notions of good writing aka something erudite.
When is the exam Miss? lol Just joking. I actually enjoyed the video very much. I don't feel strongly about this, but I am not sure YA or litreray are categories. One is age distinction, and the other is more of a style. However, I consider Poetry a category on its own. Poetry is a vast world. Or maybe having another level to distinguish between novels and poetry.
I disagree that time travel is a trope. It's a subgenre of sci-fi. I think it is more accurate to say that THE LIGHT BRIGADE fits a few subgenres. A book that does this is typically thought of as a genre-bending book. That term can also be used when a book plays with multiple genres. I think of a trope as a plot convention or character convention.
I hear you, but I'd say it can be either (which I didn't want to fully get into)-- think of Outlander. It's a historical romance with a time travel trope
HAPPY HOLIDAYS 2023! I'm writing a story that I would call REALISTIC FICTION. That's defined as a make-believe story that never actually happened, but it could've happened in reality. It's about TWO pop music superstars who record for RIVAL music labels. In the cuthroat world of showbiz, they somehow manage to find LASTING LOVE with EACH OTHER. I'm adding elements of EROTICA and ROMANCE. I IMAGINE that LOTS of SEXUAL PERVERSION goes on in the world of Hollywood and celebrities.
Hi Mara, I know that “It Ends With Us” by Coleen Hoover is in the Romance genre but it doesn’t fit totally, if you’ve read it I would thank you on saying where it fits.
!!!!!SPOILERS!!!!! By Mara’s description, I would categorize it as Women’s Fiction as it’s a bit serious towards the end. Personally I’d still categorize it as romance, as (imo) they don’t have to have a happy ending
Somewhat, though really, I find that it's become a marketing buzzword that has been so overused that I honestly find it kind of inert at this point to actually describe a book :D
As a magick practitioner kinda offended in some part's, 🙃 but cant blame them, as they dont know 🙂 Although religious ppl would be really no happy about calling their deities not real.. Oh no dear.. There is romance that ended tragic! 😢 I watched on valentines day too, with ma man! Not always happily ever after no no! I like folklore fantasy stuff, so I learn n enjoy actually learning, like anime n manga has! There's some even real quantum physics energy manipulation stuff too. There's even Polish series's wwwaaaayyy back then with lot folklore fantasy hunter called Wiedźmin.. aka.. stole 🇺🇸 to make it not folklore no more "witcher" 😒 I will hold a grudge unless someone do same to American ages ago series with folklore like our Polish ones making it into only fantasy not folklore to get Americans mad too.. that be fair.. Anyway! Anyone knows folklore fantasy books?
Being able to classify books has most definitely helped me. I am a mystery (classic who dunnit, P. I. preferable to cop though I make some exceptions for the UK cops), UF or low fantasy-which is honestly not my favorite descriptor for it as some of my favorite authors are "low fantasy" writers, SciFi and romance kind of girl. Not a big fan of the YA stuff and honestly who is responsible for categorizing some of that stuff?!? (I know it's the publishers but there should be some accountability there) Sarah J. Maas should most definitely Not be considered YA, imo. Also, not a fan of non-fiction.I feel like I get enough non-fiction by watching the news(very depressing lately) or if I really get a hankering there's always the ID channel, Discovery or A&E .
You don't like the term "low fantasy". Is this because you feel the the use of "low" implies the books are less valuable or lower quality? Negative meaning basically?
This is a perfect guide for some like me who isn’t that good at english but loves reading. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
I find the Choose Your Own Adventure books one of the most interesting books ever because they got a game you can play inside the book with different paths that lead to different outcomes. I don't think many people know about these types of books.
The way you described the differences between mystery, thriller, and suspense was helpful!
I’m so glad you mention Tana French because I couldn’t point to why her books Felt so different to me than my usual Favorite authors. In the past I was drawn to Ruth Rendell and Francs Fyfield who emitted a similar vibe . But I haven’t found an Author who made me laugh, parrot her lines, for example, you’re not wrong, instead of what we usually say you’re right. That Irish gift of speech that I love is in all her books. If you know of any similar authors, I would love to know. Thank you for your intelligent insightful videos. Aloha
I'm a pretty new reader. I didn't read a full book for 10 years. eek! But this year, I've read 10 books so far. I'm a newbie to reading so this video was really helpful. I'm liking mystery -- but I was confused about the difference of mystery and thriller, etc. This was super helpful. Thank you!
My nerdy English major brain loved this video! I was trying to make a reading spreadsheet a few months ago but actually gave up because of the interplay of medium (e.g., poetry, graphic novel), category, age category, and genre. How detailed to make each (break out “epic” from poetry?), what each would entail (is essay a genre or a form?), where descriptors like “literary” and “classic” fit in. I am definitely overthinking this, but you could easily have a YA fantasy graphic novel or a speculative poetry collection...maybe I could work out how to tag each book with all descriptors that apply rather than trying to format a series of drop down menus.
I don’t want to “well, actually” you, but when I took a science fiction class during my lit major, we talked about the hard/soft distinction. In theory, at least, it doesn’t have to do with how prominent or important the science is at all, just whether the science involved is theoretically possible based on our current understanding of the universe or not. So, pandemic book: hard sci fi. Faster-than-light travel: soft sci fi. However, I’ve never heard a book reviewer use the terms that way (so the descriptivist in me would ask whether that *is* what the terms mean, since that’s not how they’re used) and it brings up questions of how much science you need to know to describe a book. Also that distinction is less helpful in picking books you will like than the one you used.
Sorry for the essay but this is something I’ve been thinking a lot about since starting booktube 😅
Definitely agree on how many different layers of tags or categories there are-- it makes straightforward categorization challenging!!
Very helpful review. It made me think of my profile on Goodreads from years ago-which was all in genre/sub-genre terms: "Literature, esp. Asian themes
Science Fiction esp. Dystopian/Cyberpunk; Historical Fiction--relative historical accuracy req'd; Fantasy, mature themes, preferably dark & shocking;
Crime fiction, with noir themes"
Your distinction between suspense and thriller was really helpful! As genres I don't tend to gravitate to, that's always been a weak point in my genre language! Thanks for another great video
Glad you enjoyed it!
hi mara!
wow, that was some serious book-nerd catnip! 😻 enjoyed every minute of it, thank you! 👌🏻
at college (many moons ago) i took classes on mystery/detective fiction and on heroines in literature, taught by rather well-published professors. there was a long wait-list for those classes.
but, because every ounce of enjoyment was sucked out of the respective subjects and the reading assignments felt like chores, the drop-out rate was high.
i feel like emailing them a link to this video with a note saying, „watch this, then rethink your syllabus and seminar structure“‼️
this video goes into my „saved“ files. 💯
lots of love from tiny-town austria, monica 📚🐾🐾
I want to read as many books as you do in a year.
This is a great video. Thank you so much for putting this together. I'm relatively new to BookTube and there is a lot of vocabulary to learn around here.
Glad it was helpful!
So informative - thanks so much for doing this video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I think I would love a genre & trope poster, that would be really cool! Bet it would be HUGE though.
Very useful! 🙏❤
This is going to do wonders for my goodreads "shelf" organization.
Super helpful video! Literature teachers love to plague students with this question and I think it's manageable now when I have a guide, thanks for this👍
Something that I've been thinking about recently is how the big chain bookstore in Canada struggles with marketing/shelving horror in specific. Basically unless you're Stephen King or otherwise trying to market yourself as a horror author (like Paul Tremblay or Joe Hill for example) a lot of books I would consider horror get shelved as General fiction (The Need by Helen Phillips or Bunny by Mona Awad for example). I think it has something to do with the lack of distinct horror tropes (monsters/hauntings/etc) but still overall are compelled narratively and tonally by horrific elements. Then theres the all the 'gothic' horror fiction I can't find cause its thrown into General lol! (Would that be considered literary with horror elements you think?)
On a related topic it certainly doesn't help the misunderstanding of YA as a genre or category when YA books are all shelved together with no distinction between genres.
Very true re:horror-- I think because a lot of the books in that genre are kind of "weird" or genre mashups, it gets harder to market them unless they are with popular authors or fall neatly into a certain subgenre (I'm thinking like haunted house, etc.)
This is a really useful video. I loved the genres as a house example and your four umbrella genres make perfect sense.
However, I have to say that I disagree with your low fantasy/high fantasy definition. Yes, it's the one used in literary studies but in reality no one who wants to read urban/contemporary fantasy would search for those books with the term low fantasy but would use the search term "urban fantasy". Low fantasy within the fantasy community means a low magic setting, like A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones (at first) and Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. Or books with no magic at all like Sixteen Ways to Defend a Walled City by K.J. Parker or A Natural History of Dragons by Marie Brennan. Just take a look at /r/fantasy subreddit and you will find many many debates about this very same thing.
Also really handy in talking about genres, subgenres and types of plots is the model presented by Brandon Sanderson and Mary Robinette Kowal in their podcast Writing Excuses. Their Season 11 deals with Elemental Genres that are based on the central element of the story, or emotion the reader is seeking, and they name 11 genres. For example fantasy is the genre of the sense of wonder and sci fi is the genre of ideas. You can find the episode transcripts of the entire season here: sites.google.com/site/writingexcusesindex/home/index11. Each episode is only 15 minutes long but it's a ton of episodes so you get through them faster by reading.
Yeah, the whole high/low and hard/soft descriptions are always fraught because there's such a mixed bag in terms of usage
I enjoyed the definitions and examples of “genre”, “sub-genre”, and “trope” as well as the discussion of “category” vs “genre” and how they could blend.
The one thing that I was looking forward to at least being mentioned, but was not, was a list of mystery sub-genres (cozy, noir, etc). I was looking forward to how many sub-genres would be named and the differences between each. When I took a detective fiction class, I realized that I liked cozy mysteries the beat, but am bored with noir and do not like gritty at all. Perhaps sub-genres not mentioned in this video could be a follow up video? (There were other genres that did not have sub-genres listed, either.)
Possibly -- it's just that there are SO MANY subgenres in each genre, it would really take a series of videos, so I'd have to decide if that was a project I'd want to undertake
I loved the level of nerdy specific detail in this video. I definitely agree that knowing specific words for what you like about books makes your reading life better overall. Being able to identify that I like historical time travel books made me find new favourites in the relatively small niche of sci-fi.
I think it's interesting to look at how genres change over time. YA in particular seems to discard and redefine its genres relatively rapidly. When I was in middle school YA mysteries were mainly campy novels featuring teen spies a la Ghalleger Academy and now it seems the genre has pushed out those lighter stories and have mysteries with more intensity. Former darlings like paranormal romance in YA seem dead as a doornail but are getting a big resurgence but marketed as contemporary fantasy
I’m loving your videos more everyday, thanks a lot.
Happy to hear that!
Could you make a video recommending best isolated mystery books? I also really like this trope but so far I only consumed it through movies, not books.
Great video!
I have a whole playlist of isolated closed circle mystery review videos, so that's where I'd start! Or I have 2 shelves on Goodreads that have all the ones I know about on them with ratings for the ones I've read :)
🦋 ❤very well detailed 👍 Happy to see you are healing better ❤🦋
Thanks!
What a comprehensive guide to help readers nail down a wheelhouse.
Great video, I really like your discussion videos 👏🏻
This was very interesting, and I found some of the distinctions helpful in terms of thinking about books and what I like to read. On a specific one you mentioned, I've always thought of the autobiography vs. memoir distinction to be more scope of the book. Autobiography being more the history of the person's life while memoir is an account of a specific aspect or time period of their life. But the storytelling aspect you were describing definitely rings true too.
This was Fantastic! Thank You SO Much for making this video. I know what I like, but it seems overwhelming at times when you are standing (well, not right now) in a bookstore w all these varieties infront of you. Loved It !!!
Glad it was helpful!
Super helpful -- thanks! Have you heard the term Upmarket Fiction? It's mostly used by people in the publishing biz, but seems to be used as an updated version of "Book Club" fiction. Basically commercial fiction with noteworthy writing, or another way to look at it might be well-written fiction that aims to entertain. Examples: Where the Crawdads Sing, The Help, Water for Elephants, Me Before You, Station Eleven. Hey, another way of categorization I don't like and you probably won't either! :)
Yes, upmarket fiction is a really helpful term! I thought about using it, but decided it hasn't gotten enough purchase in general book reviewing (vs. in marketing or book selling) to be relatable... that said, I'd like to see that kind of terminology replace things like "women's fiction," which I low key loathe :D
LOOOOOVE this video! Very helpful to clarify some terms that booklovers sometimes struggle to comprehend and own it, as you said! :)
Glad it was helpful!
This is a great video! It strikes me that you'd make a brilliant professor.
You're too kind!
Thank you for this thorough explanation. I might have to rethink how to classify all my books now. 😅
Very helpful since I like to know the genres and sub-genres if the books I enjoy. Tropes I am not sure of yet, I have to think more about of what I like or maybe don't like.
Sorry you had to deal with the treecutters. 😊❤️❤️❤️
A great way to find different genres of non-fiction is to study up on the dewey decimal system and various sub-classifications within it. You could really boil your favourites down that way!
I totally agree with being super specific about what you like. For example, I love a good mystery in my story, but it needs to be cozy. No to anything scary/creepy/horror-y please. I want to figure out a cool puzzle, not to have nightmarish dreams night after night
Within fantasy, I also think of epic fantasy as being a subcategory. To me this is longer series, The Wheel of Time, Brandon Sandersons Cosmere, The Malazan, Robin Hobb. Any thoughts on this?
Yes, epic fantasy is a subgenre for sure
I divide my fiction genres into categories: Mood - comedy, Drama, Horror Time genre- contemporary, historical, futuristic Demographic Genre: YA, Middlegrade, Adult Then I have my big five: Romance, Speculative (w/ sub genres Fantasy/Scifi and Folktale) Crime, Action/Adventure, and what I call Slice of Life (tends to be what most people call Literary - but I hate the snootyness of that term)
ur intro is amazing.
OHHHH HELLOO THEERE 😲
What a great discussion! I would like to share just a few thoughts on some of the genres. When it comes to genres, I like to go back to the classics for the examples of how it all began. On the mystery genre, I distinguish the whodunit from the detective mystery as two distinct subgenres because in the whodunit the reader is in a “race” with the sleuth to figure out the puzzle/whodunit before the reveal at the end. Think your favorite, Miss Marple, and my favorite, Ellery Queen. In the detective mystery, the reader follows the detective along, but all is not revealed to the reader. The ending is more about how the detective solves the case overcoming some difficulties along the way. Think Cormoran Strike. I wish I could remember where I first encountered this definition, but Edgar Allan Poe is often credited with starting the mystery/crime genre. Now, on to the horror/thriller/suspense genre. The Horror genre has been around since the publication of Frankenstein (often cited as one of the first horror stories). The distinction that I make about horror is that it is intended to cause a fear reaction in the reader. In a thriller, the story intends to create a strong emotional reaction (not necessarily fear) in the reader. I think of a roller coaster when I think of thriller. In suspense, the reaction is more of a sense of dread and sometimes culminating in a type of thrill when the action occurs. And, finally on romance, the distinction of a romance from a love story. Nicholas Sparks made the distinction that a romance has a happily ever after (as you said), but a love story may or may not have a happily ever after. While, love story isn’t a subgenre, it is good to make the distinction that readers sometimes think they are getting a romance when what they are actually getting is a love story and they may find themselves disappointed at the end of the book. Thanks for providing wonderful content on CZcams!
Appreciate the discussion! :) These are fun things to dig in to!
I really enjoyed this video. As an experiment or challenge, what do you think of a video doing something similar to what you did with the Kameron Hurley book, where you methodically break other books down through your genre classification? Particularly for those in-between books. For example, how would you personally classify something like The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell?
Also, I am personally of the "horror is more speculative than thrillery" school, mostly because I think the uncanny as a thing to contemplate is at the heart of horror, though that doesn't presuppose the actual existence of something supernatural. Which is why I think Cujo and Rosemary's Baby are still in genre horror. But thrillers and horror have their own continuum for sure.
Hmm, that's an interesting idea... maybe! As for The Sparrow, I'd probably call that category: literary (not the genre, I don't think in this one, more the overall tone), genre: SciFi, sub-genres: First Contact & Space Travel
The discussion of the relationship between Fantasy and Sci Fi is interesting. It has helped me articulate my dislike of Fantasy (really High Fantasy which is unwatchable/unreadable for me) but there are certainly fantastical elements in a story that I can deal with if it is based in our world (HP was a perfect combo for the most part). Big Star Wars fan and consider it Sci Fi but many people consider it Fantasy (which used to piss me off). I now just call it a Space Opera and put it in its own category :)
I would definitely categorize Star Wars as SciFi though, yeah, Space Opera is a good sub genre for it.
@@TheGoofy1932 Yeah, it's the space element that trips me up when people call it fantasy (though there are definitely fantasy elements in the stories, especially the books), I don't really equate fantasy in stories with space and space travel. Cosmic horror has also been a hard sub genre for me to get into.
Loved this video! The nerd part of me just enjoys hearing about categorizing of objects :)
I've also found over the years that my approach to and perspective on genre has really changed - I had a real "snob" period in my early 20s where whenever I did read "genre" (romance/action/adventure/etc.) I perceived it as a guilty pleasure that I couldn't share with others. Definitely not my view nowadays!
My preferred genre is romance and women's fiction, but years ago, I briefly delved into travel writing. Although the authors' descriptions of their destinations were interesting what I loved most was usually the culture clash/fish out of water aspect. I guess these would fall into literary narrative non-fiction. Ones I remember most were Tony Horwitz's Baghdad Without a Map, Riding the Iron Rooster by Paul Theroux, Old Glory: A Voyage Down the Mississippi by Jonathan Raban and Bill Bryson's A Walk in the Woods. It strikes me that I barely read any that were written by women, although I have a copy of Eat, Pray, Love that I never got into. Makes me think that so many of past travel writing by women focused so much on the "novelty" of a woman or women traveling on their own through unstable areas that it kind of became more about that than about the actual travel/culture differences.
How do you avoid just getting burnt out when you read so much? I don’t read half as much but often I find myself reading a book, yawning and thinking - here we go again.
This is very helpful and interesting . 👍 I learned a lot and in an entertaining way. Well done.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Greetings. Thanks for your awesome summary of book genres. I write in what many call Contemporary Realistic Fiction. But I find it difficult to classify my work within the standard set of KDP categories. Is there a popular category under which CRF fits?
Mara, I loved this video! Learned something new. ☺️
Glad it was helpful!
This was great....can we have one on common tropes to look for? Thanks
Hmm, possibly!
I definitely have discovered a lot of genres and sub genres but also elements of books (tropes, storytelling style, writing style/form, etc) and it can definitely get confusing. I'm actually thinking of doing discussion/educational type videos on different genres and sub genres. I don't know if I will do it but it's definitely an idea I'm considering.
Ohhh this is SO interesting! I literally just started grad school and last week was the week on 'genre', so I'm all up for a more appropriate view of it (cause how they defined genre there, boiii). Also, your explanation of paranormal romance made me wonder: what is the difference between paranormal romances and urban fantasy? I feel like they are often used to denote the same series (Sookie Stackhouse, for instance). Also2, I know you started with saying that YA is not a genre, but I actually feel that it might be, haha. In the same way as literary fiction, especially now that the consensus is "adults read ya too". I feel that when booktubers are discussing middle grade, it is usually in a "this did(n't) work for me, but that might be because I'm not 10 years old", whereas with YA that only happens with young YA. Maybe a division might be happening between YA as an age category being young ya, and ya as a genre being the rest? :'D Anyway, love the video! I was binging your videos yesterday, so when I got a notification today I really hoped it was a new video of yours. :)
Generally speaking, in paranormal romance the focus is on the romance, whereas in urban fantasy the romance is only a side plot and the focus is on the other elements of the story.
Here is an interesting academic article that discusses urban fantasy and paranormal romance at length: refractory-journal.com/uf-mclennon/
Like you said, sometimes academia can be a little out of touch with reality, but I think that author does a good job trying to bridge that gap.
Looks like thereforshereads beat me to the punch! :)
I stopped using the term "literary fiction" as I find it to be a coded term to mean Literature deemed worthy of intellectual engagement and worthy of accolades because White educated moneyed people said so. I use the term general fiction, meaning an imagined story that fits into no genre cleanly, but nevertheless has tropes.
All books exist on a spectrum of literary quality.
Thank you for this ! I always get confused with mystery / thriller / suspense and I think publishing gets it wrong too 😆
They're very slippery terms so it leads to a lot of confusion :)
My favorite genre is romance. I have found a new author named Sandra Owens that I am now a fan of. I am reading “All Autumn” by her and it is totally a romance read.
Loved this video - thank you! Curious where you would place a book like Queenie (if you’ve read it)? It almost seems to have elements of women’s fiction, chick lit, contemporary and literary fiction. Also, I really appreciated an earlier comment about “upmarket fiction” or “book club fiction”. I love this “category” or “genre”. Queenie could maybe fit in there too! I’m also curious about your thoughts on how to categorize An American Marriage if you’ve read it. Thanks again!
Sorry, haven't read either of those! :(
I personally don't use the term speculative fiction and mainly for the critique that I'm about to share: People ignore horror and let it be subsumed into fantasy and science fiction. (I understand that you don't put horror in speculative.) I see why that happens, but I think it's intellectually lazy and dishonest as the aims of horror are not the aims of fantasy nor science fiction. I say that to mean that fantasy, although in the US is drenched in Euro-centrism, is chiefly considered with the good vs. evil, or the explanation of things seemingly unexplainable (I thinking about folktales, myths, and folklore here). Science fiction is chiefly concerned with the relationship between humans, technology, and the environment. Horror is focused on fear, terror, disgust/revulsion and how a person/community confronts that.
This is awsome. Thankyou :)
Glad you liked it!
I'm glad you did this video! I agree on what you said at the top about category being the broadest term. I think I got confused on whether or not you were defining terms as they are understood or are defining terms as you understand them. I say that because Women's Fiction as well as Chick-lit are sexist. Furthermore, I don't see how those would be thought of as genres. Those are, to me, pure inventions of marketing. Often a book written by a woman will be called Women's Fiction just because a woman wrote it, it has a female protagonist, and the prose is decent to excellent, but to that end, Women's Fiction has no borders, ya know? Men can and do write Chick-lit (looking at Nicholas Sparks and Kevin Kwan) and it gets venerated because it wasn't written by a woman.
While watching this, I felt like your definitions and distinctions upheld oppressive ideas-especially what you said about classics. There are books that we call classics that are actually genre classics. For example, Shakespeare wrote romances and comedies but is seen and talked about as though he was not a genre writer. The Count of Monte Cristo, Robinson Crusoe, all gothic classics, The Lord of the Flies are all examples of genre writing. In fact, genre fiction is the older literary tradition. General fiction rose as part of the Realism movement-which I think is the most enduring artistic movement-and for whatever reason people place that as being more noteworthy. I've watched your channel long enough to know you don't do that personally. I'm pushing back against when you said classics are often literary fiction and then acknowledged that there are also genre classics.
I was aiming for descriptive rather than prescriptive in terms of how I see these words used... though I couldn't totally keep my contempt for the term "Women's Fiction" out completely :D
@@bookslikewhoa I see. Nevertheless the way you described classics is oppressive in that it upholds whiteness and classist notions of good writing aka something erudite.
"Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" Arthur C. Clark.
can you explain what is a tbr and how you make one?
🥳 love this
When is the exam Miss? lol
Just joking. I actually enjoyed the video very much. I don't feel strongly about this, but I am not sure YA or litreray are categories. One is age distinction, and the other is more of a style. However, I consider Poetry a category on its own. Poetry is a vast world. Or maybe having another level to distinguish between novels and poetry.
How? How can you read 300 books a year?
I need someone to draw a flowchart 😂. Great explanations though!
I disagree that time travel is a trope. It's a subgenre of sci-fi. I think it is more accurate to say that THE LIGHT BRIGADE fits a few subgenres. A book that does this is typically thought of as a genre-bending book. That term can also be used when a book plays with multiple genres.
I think of a trope as a plot convention or character convention.
I hear you, but I'd say it can be either (which I didn't want to fully get into)-- think of Outlander. It's a historical romance with a time travel trope
Soooooo helpful
Glad it helped!
Thank you for this video!!!!
You are so welcome!
I want to read more but dont know where yo start. So many genres its overwhelming and I like more than 1 genre 😑
Thanks for this. 🙋
HAPPY HOLIDAYS 2023! I'm writing a story that I would call REALISTIC FICTION. That's defined as a make-believe story that never actually happened, but it could've happened in reality. It's about TWO pop music superstars who record for RIVAL music labels. In the cuthroat world of showbiz, they somehow manage to find LASTING LOVE with EACH OTHER. I'm adding elements of EROTICA and ROMANCE. I IMAGINE that LOTS of SEXUAL PERVERSION goes on in the world of Hollywood and celebrities.
This was really helpful 😁
I'm so glad!
Hi Mara, I know that “It Ends With Us” by Coleen Hoover is in the Romance genre but it doesn’t fit totally, if you’ve read it I would thank you on saying where it fits.
!!!!!SPOILERS!!!!! By Mara’s description, I would categorize it as Women’s Fiction as it’s a bit serious towards the end. Personally I’d still categorize it as romance, as (imo) they don’t have to have a happy ending
Sorry, haven't read that one! :)
Thank you. This is very helpful. Is psychological considered a subgenre of just Thriller?
Somewhat, though really, I find that it's become a marketing buzzword that has been so overused that I honestly find it kind of inert at this point to actually describe a book :D
I tend to pleasure read at slightly faster than reading aloud but about that pace. What pace is your reading to get through as many books as you do?
My average reading speed is about 60 pages/hour, which goes up or down based on how difficult the book is :)
bookslikewhoa that’s interesting! I will have to time myself. Thanks for answering :)
5:37
As a magick practitioner kinda offended in some part's, 🙃 but cant blame them, as they dont know 🙂 Although religious ppl would be really no happy about calling their deities not real..
Oh no dear.. There is romance that ended tragic! 😢 I watched on valentines day too, with ma man! Not always happily ever after no no!
I like folklore fantasy stuff, so I learn n enjoy actually learning, like anime n manga has! There's some even real quantum physics energy manipulation stuff too. There's even Polish series's wwwaaaayyy back then with lot folklore fantasy hunter called Wiedźmin.. aka.. stole 🇺🇸 to make it not folklore no more "witcher" 😒 I will hold a grudge unless someone do same to American ages ago series with folklore like our Polish ones making it into only fantasy not folklore to get Americans mad too.. that be fair..
Anyway! Anyone knows folklore fantasy books?
8:56
Eyeshadow game is strong.
Being able to classify books has most definitely helped me. I am a mystery (classic who dunnit, P. I. preferable to cop though I make some exceptions for the UK cops), UF or low fantasy-which is honestly not my favorite descriptor for it as some of my favorite authors are "low fantasy" writers, SciFi and romance kind of girl. Not a big fan of the YA stuff and honestly who is responsible for categorizing some of that stuff?!? (I know it's the publishers but there should be some accountability there) Sarah J. Maas should most definitely Not be considered YA, imo. Also, not a fan of non-fiction.I feel like I get enough non-fiction by watching the news(very depressing lately) or if I really get a hankering there's always the ID channel, Discovery or A&E .
You don't like the term "low fantasy". Is this because you feel the the use of "low" implies the books are less valuable or lower quality? Negative meaning basically?