The Downfall of New Atheism? Dawkins and Hirsi Ali debate review with
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- čas přidán 29. 07. 2024
- Richard Dawkins and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, old friends and two of the most prominent faces of the "new atheism" movement, recently did a debate focused on Hirsi Ali's recent conversion (sorta?) to Christianity. They also conducted a post-mortem of sorts on the "new atheists": • Richard Dawkins vs Aya...
I had a lot of issues with Hirsi Ali's conversion, which I discuss in this video here (TL;DW: a lot of the problems of the Islamic religion she hates can also be found in Christianity): • Why Did Ex-Muslim Ayaa...
I also did a video criticizing Dawkins's recent interview where, while maintaining his staunch atheism, he described Christianity as fundamentally decent - a pretty shocking notion when you consider how much harm it has caused (and continues to cause). You can watch that one here: • "Cultural Christian" R...
So when I saw they did a debate together, I figured it would be an interesting video to review, particularly since both were influential in my post-leaving Islam journey. Friend of the channel @ApostateAladdin agreed joined me for this live discussion, where we ended up mostly siding with Dawkins, although we both felt he was imprecise at times and not critical enough of Hirsi Ali's rather weak arguments for Christianity. Only one thing is left up in the air now: what "plane of perception" we're all on exactly! (Inside joke for anyone who watched this video!)
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TIMESTAMPS:
00:00-12:23 Intro
12:23-35:04 Hirsi Ali's newfound faith
35:04-59:20 Christianity's impact
59:20-1:17:32 Religion's role in society
1:17:32-1:29:01 Truth/Ideology
1:29:01-1:57:08 Rise of Islamism
1:57:08-2:13:10 Role of Christianity
2:13:10-2:39:27 Islam's impact
2:39:27-2:52:25 Closing thoughts
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Thanks for this, guys. Some really excellent points!!
Thanks for watching, Hassan. Hirsi Ali was a tad repetitive in her talking points, no?
@@SecularSpirit Oh definitely. I sympathise with what she's gone through and I understand why many ex-Muslims feel the need to fill the void with "something", but it doesn't really solve the problem. One cannot "choose" to genuinely believe no matter how much utility one sees in a particular belief system.
@@HassanRadwan133 It is a difficult journey, and like I said in the video, at least she is being honest that she is believing it for its utility. This may be true for others as well, but they wouldn't be as forthcoming.
I sympathize with her to be very honest. I can see why the utility of a thing can be a means to find refuge in it more than the core beliefs it proclaims. I don't think Ayan in particular cares about the truth claims of the bible or Christianity, it's more about the structure and comfort it offers. I think a lot of people live by this very need in their respective religions and don't really care too much about the truth claims of them all too much. That's why so many religions people struggle with believing that people not of their faiths are destined for eternal hell. I don't find it super perplexing that a good amount of humans live by this.
@@footballartistn7463 Well said, and it this those comforts that allow religious ideas to propagate their harms sadly.
Ayaan tends to go from one extreme to the other. When she lived in Holland she went from far-left to extreme right. Now she's gone from political atheist to political christian.
I have heard this about her political background in Holland, like her support of Geert Wilders.
Great video guys. TW: I had post partum depression for 5 years after having my daughter. Becoming a mother completely broke me. I prayed, but no god came to help me. I asked why he would want to test a new mother to a point of extinguishing herself. But I managed to pull myself out of it. No help, no god, no answers to my prayers. Just more questions...what Ayaan receives from believeing in Christianity, I received from Crafting. Peace, confidence, appreciation, community. I dont know of there is a god, but he certainly didn't come to help me when I needed him most. I feel for her, as shes obviously gone through some trauma (like me) but we've come out the other side differently. There is beauty in that. Each to their own. 🙏🏽❤️
How do you know it was you who pulled yourself out of it and not God?
Beautiful words here, I'm glad you managed to find comfort and support in your journey. I always feel torn about saying to each their own, because I think she must mean well and truly believe Christianity is the answer, but in publicly endorsing a religion that actively causes harm in the world, I feel like I have to challenge her. I hope that makes sense!
@@SecularSpirit💯💯💯 makes sense!
@@JesusSavesSouls God didn’t answer her prayers, you talk like it just melted away but no, as a person who has also gone through very traumatic events
@@generaltom6850 You cannot prove that, and where does God say he will give you instant relief from all your problems? That’s a fantasy. We live in a broken world full of lots of problems (including ourselves) but we can find peace in God and his promises for us.
Thanks for this. You and Apostate Aladdin had interesting thoughts.
Thank you for tuning in and all your support, especially in the livestream AA did talking about all his challenges he's facing lately.
it's incredible how she attributes all the good in the West™ to christianity while it was developed by secularism lmao
It wasn't though, the building blocks where upon Christianity.
@@JesusSavesSoulsexactly
To whom do you want her to attribute it?
Atheist?
@@JesusSavesSouls The building blocks of Western civilization were laid down by the Greeks. With its theological developments, Christianity is just another product of the periphery of Western civilization, and a pretty bad product on that. It is not the other way around. Western civilization is not the product of Christianity. It died with the rise of Christianity and it wasn't reborn until the Renaissance and the Enlighenment. The Enlighenment was a reactionary movement against Christianity and religion in general.
@@JesusSavesSouls oh so is that why David Hume had to wait until he kicked the bucket to publish his secular philosophy? Is that the reason why Adam Smith refused to help David Hume publish his secular and atheist philosophy? Is that the reason why so many enlightenment thinkers were put to death for heresy? Lol give me a break
I love how she brings up Iran as an example of how terrible Islam is, but what forces are fighting against the Islamic regime in Iran? It's atheists and liberal/secular Muslims! You don't have loads of Iranians leaving Islam and converting to Christianity to fight the regime. You have Muslims leaving religion all together or becoming more secular and progressive.
Excellent point, Andrew! Good to see your comment here!
Thanks @@SecularSpirit I really appreciate you taking the time to interact with our comments. It's hard enough just to make your high quality content!
@@Andrew_Young Thanks, I just wish I could devote more time!!
Really enjoyed this conversation. Good one you guys 👍🏼. This is an important discussion. Thank you for this.
I really appreciate you watching, Ayesha!
40:17 The whole “I choose to believe in God”…
If you have to choose to believe it, it just tells me that the belief doesn’t come naturally and you have to make the conscious effort to convince yourself
You are right but it all depends on perspective.
Different people have different ways of thinking.I am much arsi in this way I got convinced by arguments for God,convinced by the resurrection and felt something different happening and even after that things like virgin birth,changing water to wine didn't make sense to me but I choose to have faith in Jesus and believe what was reveal to us through his church.
Wokism is the opposite of Sleepism. Is that clear?
Understood 😅
Great analysis.
Thank you for tuning in!
I am avid reader of her work and have listened to most of her talks.
I can categorically say she is politically Christian and not in a religious way.
First time I saw her this muddled though. 😢 I am sure she will find a way to truth one day.
Politically Christian is kinda worse imo
@@cherryfairyy agreed, politico religious beliefs are worse
She always takes her time to answer carefully. She was not muddled. She does not want to argue. And Dawkins chooses to believe in evolution. There is such a thing as natural selection, but what Dawkins promulgates is just as much based on faith.
Excited to watch ❤ edit: really enjoying it❤ i absolutely love your content! I think your channel is gonna blow up. I will try to join on patreon soon. Just having financial issues rn. I'm really glad i found your channel through AA. Both of you are awesome. Your voice is important. Especially as a Palestinian atheist (or agnostic not sure)❤❤❤🇵🇸 i love how you call out all religions. I live in "the bible belt" and it sucks especially compared to living in a much more secular area in the north of the US before. also i love the way you speak its very soothing. Both of you could do ASMR haha.
do you say you are Palestinian ? do they hate you ?
Thanks so much for this comment and all your other comments, Cherry! That is more than enough support for what I'm doing, and of course it's important to call out all religions when they have the same issues, right? And AA totally has got to do ASMR, I wouldn't even know how to start 😂
@@user-jt8vj1vm6y noo I'm not Palestinian, I was referring to secular spirit
Dont hate on experimental music Aladdin 😂😂
How dare he, right?? 🤣
@@SecularSpirit lolol 🤣
Secular Humanism may have come out of Christianity, but Christianity came out of Judaism and Classical civilization.
Don't forget Greek and Roman philosophy, that also contributed to Christianity and Secularism
@@im_aleey yes classical civilization with its philosophy, religion and other aspects.
Classical civilization is the bedrock of Western civilization.
Have you seen these videos?
Title: Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Lies Exposed Part 1-4.
Link: czcams.com/video/Ho3BpnpAagQ/video.html
Duration: 9:59
Channel: somaliblog@somaliblog.
Title: Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Lies Exposed Part 2-4.
Link: czcams.com/video/5n6r7H988Tc/video.html
Duration: 9:58
Channel: somaliblog@somaliblog.
Title: Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Lies Exposed Part 3-4.
Link: czcams.com/video/gYd4mOwI5w4/video.html
Duration: 9:54
Channel: somaliblog@somaliblog.
A while back a journalist pointed out that she wasn't gonna convince over a billion Muslims to become atheists. Then that's when she suggested that people who still have the psychological need to believe in something could convert to Christianity. Looks like she decided to take her advice. Indeed, people don't usually go from theism to atheism, there's a gradual transition. So going from one violent religion to a less violent one isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, I think it would be better to encourage Muslims to become Sufis rather than Christians.
Same book, different doctrine, but it doesn't really resolve the issue of what the Quran teaches.
I've come across this idea to become Sufis as a more practical solution to mitigate the harms of Islam, it's an interesting one. I feel like my role is to advocate for shedding Islam altogether though, because the cognitive dissonance and harmful beliefs will still exist even with the more esoteric and abstract ideas that Sufis carry within them.
Awww. I missed the livestream.
Hopefully you can make the next one!!
Ayaan is an intelligent and good-hearted woman who of course doesn't have all the answers. I love and admire her, have read many of her writings/books, she is also on Substack now btw (Restoration). Imho Christianity is a beautiful, complex and ethical religion but I've no problem with atheism. You two would be harsh judges, please stick to literature and activism. 🤣
Sad to say we disagree on Christianity: it definitely is complex and has its beauty, but it is as unethical at times as it is ethical. I agree with her that we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to Christianity, but the only thing we should preserve is the ethical teachings like the golden rule that don't need a belief in Jesus/God/the afterlife.
@@SecularSpirit Please see my reply to @gregbrown8586 above if you have a spare minute, thanks.
She's a moral vacuum cleaner.
It must be comforting for people to believe that they have all the answers. But just because there probably is "something " the likelyhood of it being Christianity is so unlikely. And just because there probably is "something" doesnt mean we know what it is
She’s doing the Christian grift. This is a way of becoming relevant again. In 2 months she’ll release a book. She’s no different than Jordan Peterson or Andrew Tate.
Im my view (and I could be wrong of course) she converted to the god of political expediency who offers security blankets against Islam, and is all about “love or whatever” and is definitely “team West”It just so happens or seems to be “Christianity”.
I mean why not. From her point of view, it’s quite old too (definitely older than Islam) and it doesn’t want to murder her before it tortures her in the grave and condemn her to hell for eternity.
In the end, if she’s truly happen and in peace, good for her.
Here is the problem: she might have peace and comfort, but she's gotten it at the price of endorsing a religion (Christianity) that causes a lot of the same suffering that Islam causes: fear of hell and Satan, oppression towards LGBTQ people...etc.
@@SecularSpirit That’s true (and am I allergic to all that preaching too, which is why I can’t stand the likes of JP nowadays).
There is subtext behind my words. She unfortunately took the lazy intellectual ( and spiritual) road of expediency for that internalized vendetta she seems to be obsessed with, as apposed to going all the way to her own potential personal psycho-spiritual liberation from the shackles of her past.
That’s what frustrates me about people like her. All too eager, almost naively falling right back into that tired, lame ass old game of “MY god is better than YOUR god!”. It is what it is. I am a “live and let live” kind of a guy like that.
I have always respected Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I loved all her books, and if in ✝️ she finds the spiritual peace that she never found in ☪️, I am happy for her, but if it is just a “precise tool” against Islamism, then it seems like a mistake. I don't see any sense in her conversion, she lacks a feeling of piety, of faith, like that of Joseph Fadelle or Sabatina James!
Personally guys, I don't think you can turn one superstition against another. For that, I’m a proud secular humanist like you both!
Thanks for the video.
How is this even a tool against Islamism? Who in their right mind thinks that it is rational to fight bullshit with bullshit?
Many people think that ☪️ is being introduced into our society because of the West's lack of spirituality and its claim to its Christian identity!
But I agree that what needs to be defended is the secularization and democratization of the Middle East, not the “re-Christianization” of Europe and the United States!
And that will not be achieved if immigration is not restricted, cultural assimilation is encouraged, human rights defenders are supported instead of the repressive regimes from which they come, and Salafist mosques are allowed to be built with petrodollars.
You don't fight 🔥 with 🔥, but with 💧, nor do you fight superstition against superstition, but with reason, logic and observation!
Thanks 😊
I agree with your conclusion: we can't turn one superstition against another! It just doesn't work!
I sense a lot of motivation driven by anger in her... Aside from all the pseudo-fascist "wokeism" mumbo jumbo, her "spiritual" reasons for converting to Christianity sound a lot like mine when I converted to Islam. I was in a low place and felt "something" spiritual and contributed the feeling to Islam. It was a mistake.
Also, her not reading the old testament before converting is a big mistake because she will find a LOT of things that are just as bad as the Quran and Hadith in there ☠️ plus, a lot of laws and christian theology is still based in the OT...
I wish someone would've held my feet to the fire, maybe I wouldn't have wasted 6 years of my life on Islam☠️
Idk why YT deleted my comment where I said I left Isl@m after I w@sted 6 years of my life on it 🤔
Don't Christians teach that the old testament got replaced by the new , the only people who try to follow the old testament to the letter tend to be the orthodox Jews
@@peppa136 oh wow 6 years?? Where you in another religion before it?
Even when i was i Muslim i was really shocked when someone willingly convert to islam. Like why? What's the appeal? They told us that people who don't know islam will be judged based on their actions only so i was really confused why are we spreading islam then? Let people get judged based on them as a person, why condem them to daily five prayers and other chores?
Most people neither enter nor live religion only due to intellectual reasons it will also be coupled with emotional reasons.
Comparing the old testament to hadiths is kinda dumb.in Christian theology the old testament prophets aren't beyond reproach and are often severely punished by God for their wrong doings not like momo who used Allah to do whatever he wants.Secondly there is difference between descriptions and prescription most of the attrocious acts fine in The OT where not prescribed by God apart from the famouus Samuel chapter which is wildly taken out of context .
Anyway I'm very sorry Abt your experience with Islam but painting all religions as bad due to your experience with Islam is intellectually Lazy especially when Islam and Christianity are so opposite. Have a nice day and peace brothers we are all seeking for the truth at the end.
I would say that I have a very different view of Western civilization from Hirsi Ali. To me, Western civilization (my civilization) died in the 5th century and it wasn't until the 17th century that it was reborn.
Interesting perspective: I feel like it always existed during those time periods, but it was busy evolving. Nothing truly dies or disappears when it comes to our social development.
About Dawkins acerbic way of responding to Ayaans statements; he’s an elderly British scientist.
55 mins in I really wish she was getting pinned down on her evasion of the questions by the likes of Jeremy Paxman or Matt Dillahunty.
Ugh same, particularly Dillahunty.
31:44 It’s like her and Jordan Peterson get to use the label “Christian” to get the religious crowd on their side, without needing to believe in it. Reminds me of several American politicians, like Trump for example.
For sure, but one could well argue that western society is based on a Judaeo/Christian ethic. In many ways you and me live out the belief system of a Christian, without believing in Christianity.
@@anthonybrett However that would be incorrect, modern western values, have their origin in enlightenment thinking, which were at odds with Christianity.
@@im_aleeyWestern ethics and Christian virtue ethics are very closely related. the equal dignity and value of all human life which is the basis for most Western human rights laws have their base in Christianity.
Furthermore a huge portion of the enlightenment thinkers weren't really at odds with christianity.Because a good bunch of them had built in christian presuppositions.I won't be so arrogant as to say that it's all due to Christianity but Christianity definitely played a huge effect on western ethic.Check inspiring philosophy videos on benefits of Christianity for a deep dive he sites all his studies and scholarly opinions on the matter.
@@im_aleey The enlightenment thinking was totally inspired from the Reformation (Christian movement).
@@anthonybrett I don't live out the Judeo-Christian ethic. I think that the Judeo-Christian ethic sucks.
Its interesting her description of Christianity is the opposite of what i see living in a conservative Christian area. Ive been to a lgbt friendly progressive Christian church here that has a female priest (not sure if priest is the right word). And it was great. But thats not what mainstream Christianity is at all. Especially evangelical Christianity which is extremely widespread in the US, and obsessed with sin - end times - and believing everyone is "wicked" even children and babies
If we have to have a religion let's pick Buddhism or Wicca or something similar to what utilitarian universalist churches believe in
Why you like Buddhism or Wicca is because it doesn't convict you of your sin, and that's why men hate the light and love darkness.
So what about Dawkins. Did he make any sense?
I think he did: then again, he didn't speak much, it really revolved more around Hirsi Ali. His point about truth mattering is something key that Hirsi Ali seems to dismiss.
@@SecularSpirit Dawkins has sat in England enjoying his “Christian” culture and celebrations and Christmas carols and freedom, like a sweet little hypocrite. Now he is concerned with “truth” according to you. Also, he has preached and preached evolution from nothing with spiritual fervour and beyond any kind of firm evidence. He conflates natural selection with macro-evolution constantly and consistently and built himself some cult-status with it. His cheering section was there breaking out into frankly nasty sounding affirmations. He wore a tie with the model of DNA on it, as if it were not an incredibly deep mystery of how we got any DNA at all. What is the TRUTH about DNA? It is a complete miracle that it exists and that we exist.-Yes, yes, Dawkins is full of obvious and unassailable truths. Sure, sure. 👍
She is very subjective. It's very much a psychological thing. It's probably not worth debating as it isn't about testable facts.
I quit caring about what transphobes think or say
lol calling this really smart woman naive is wild it’s more likely that she’s playing a political game
Her words are naive, but in the end, we can't really know how nefarious her intentions in her mind are.
1:25:44 Interesting that people are comparing Islam in its current form with Christianity and saying that Christianity is a better religion. Christians have been equally fundamentalists and aggressive a few centuries back. On the other hand there is Sufi Islam which is as benign as the modern day Christianity. I understand that the mainstream Sunni and even Shia Islam can be considered worst than Christianity. But when we are imagining ideal worlds, we can say that if religion is restricted to its purely cultural manifestation, then it's no longer harmful to society, no matter which religion we are talking about. At least the three Abrahamic religions are similar in that context.
You are just wrong take Christian sources and compare them to Islamic sources and it's night day. In Christianity,we Christians are hypocrites the sinners not our Lord Jesus Jesus Christ or the Bible in Islam Muslims are way better than Muhammad and their religious teachings.
Humans with take every ideology and make it harmful evil people will do evil things irrespective of their ideology.The problem with rational humanism is that it's very easy to rationalized a bunch of stuff like the Holocaust and Russian communism.
Even Christianity have atrocious things like the Spanish inquisition but again this goes clearly against Jesus teachings of loving your enemies like yourself,not taking revenge and leaving it to God etc.
Humans will always do human stuff which is why we need Jesus our saviour.Yesus kyrios
Its based on the scriptures itself, not the behaviour of the individuals. If we are going by a correct theological understanding of Christianity it should be about entirely the greater good of the other, where as Islam teaches dominance through violence, violence to woman even their own wives, p3d0 behaviour, trafficking w0man and s3xual abuse of them, slavery and so on... they are not comparable.
58:00 as an exmulsik listening to this video, almost an hour in, I really wish you guys were more willing to listen to her pov. And actually sincerely receive her thoughts and then disagree or ageee. Rather than just dismissing her and calling her naive. A little disappointing.
She set the tone from the first minute. “I chose to believe” they were having two different conversations, he was trying to convince her, she was saying, it’s doesn’t matter, the truth doesn’t matter when in reality there’s a cultural war.
That's not what she was saying. She has faith (definition: "having confidence in something") in the evidence of the Bible and what it teaches. Just because you have faith, doesn't mean its blind faith.. no one comes to Christ blindly. They are convinced to follow him.
We both listened to her POV very well and understand it from how she addressed Dawkins's challenges: she was essentially repeating the same things over and over again. And it is, I'm sad to say, hopelessly naive, self-deceiving and inconsistent. Which Dawkins pointed out, but in a very polite way. Truth does matter, or else what foundation do you have in this cultural war?
Christian athiests s rise!
she is a rigth wing grifter and now a day it a better grift if you call you self cristian.
No matter what she says you atheists are pissed anyway 😂
BTW what you think about Andrew Tate, Sneko’s conversation in Islam. Did you talk about their true supernatural experience about Mo allah ??????
Who’s pissed?
Who takes Tate and Sneko seriously?
Why does the truth matter so much. As long you’re not hurting anyone?
Speaking for myself not Aladdin, when you start believing things that aren't true on a religious level, harm is inevitable to yourself or to others. And in her case, she is believing in Christianity's truth, which whether true or not, is harmful.
@@SecularSpirit What teachings of Jesus are harmful? Its far more harmful to dictate your own immoral reality then follow Jesus who pushes one that embraces the highest moral reality possible.
Dawkins is off his game. His arguments are quite simple. You are wrong, I am right. How long has she been a Christian. Guess she should be an experienced apologist by now, right? Get real guy. You all have tons of faith in your belief. Just like a believer, you can only go so far with your beliefs, then it becomes a matter of faith. You can continue to believe you don't fall into this category, but you do. You just stomp your feet and say it's not true.
I am sorry, I could not cope with your guys’ constant interrupting and almost mocking everything Ayaan was trying to say. It was uncharacteristically insensitive and ignorant. I could not watch your video past 50 min. However, I did watch the original video carefully and also have seen others by her complementing the subject matter. If you were better informed you might refrain from interrupting every minute to interject your vitriol and deal with the main points as shown in the whole. It just seems like heckling, and not trying to understand.
Completely agree.
Same. And I’m a black female exmuslim…. I m finishing the video now, but I had to stop 3 times. the condensation, calling her naive and undermining her intelligence had undertones of sexism and maybe even slight racism. I don’t know secular spirit, but I’m surprised to get this from aladin.
Womp womp
@@sanra167 For me and Aladdin, we don't care what gender or race someone is, we stick to the person's arguments and we did agree with several of her points. Aladdin in particular empathized with the reasons she has converted to Christianity by the way.
I'm sad that you feel this way. We listened very carefully to her position and we gave specific reasons for why we criticized it, I'm not sure what you mean when you say we were being ignorant or needed to be better informed. If you carefully watched the video, you'd note that she evaded directly answering many questions and that she kept repeating the same things over and over again.
Have you seen these videos?
Title: Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Lies Exposed Part 1-4.
Duration: 9:59
Channel: somaliblog@somaliblog.
Title: Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Lies Exposed Part 2-4.
Duration: 9:58
Channel: somaliblog@somaliblog.
Title: Ayaan Hirsi Ali's Lies Exposed Part 3-4.
Duration: 9:54
Channel: somaliblog@somaliblog.