The Mullet of Strength Training Programs - NSuns 531
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 25. 12. 2022
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nSuns got me used to maxing out and used to high volume, but after 24 weeks I could feel myself getting burnt out and switched programs. Now I canât imagine ever running nSuns again, and I have no idea how I even handled that much volume when I had run the program
maybe you got soft lol also what program did you switch too
Only a minute into the video and just gotta say I'm really glad to see this program being reviewed by a credible person. nSuns is what got my into lifting and it will always have a soft spot in my heart. I only ran it for 8 months, and I made some awesome progress on it, but eventually moved on to his nSun 3 week program which introduced my into EMOM sets and different progression schemes. I honestly wouldn't touch nSun 531 with a 10ft pole these days, as I don't think it's necessary to have 17 sets for T1 and T2, but I love that it forced me to push myself as hard as I possibly could
Some context: nSuns made this program while he was on a crazy cut and didn't plan to publish this program. Can't remember what his numbers were, but I remember he was about ~60lbs overweight and he would post updates regularly to a fitness subreddit about his weight loss while gaining strength (900lb total to 1200lb total in a short time frame). So he published the 4 day routine. A lot of people started asking for a 5 and 6 day routine, so nSuns eventually made those. The /r/nSuns sub would have an accessories Q&A thread where a few mods and some people of the community would answer anyone's questions regarding accessories, and it was awesome. I learned a ton from that and honestly miss helping out all of the newbies that came through, and loved seeing everyone's progression. nSuns eventually closed the subreddit as he deemed it as redundant as most people that would come visit the sub were new people asking the same questions and not doing their own research, which kind of sucked, but đ€·ââ
What program do you run instead of nsuns then?
@@volvo89577 I just make my own stuff and focus on hypertrophy now. Currently running a 4 day "torso"/"limbs" split. Day 1 and 3 are back/chest/shoulders, day 2 and 4 are triceps/biceps/side delt/rear delt/quads/hams, in that order
nSuns was amazing for my DB bench, really draining on squats, stronger deadlifts and OHP always felt weak with barely any progression. I had to quit after 6 weeks because my bicep tendonitis flared up. So I agree with you Alexander, this is best used as a short block.
thanks for that explanation of the 2 programs and the new one
I ran nSuns 531 after Stronglifts/Madcow 5x5. I'll be honest and say that it ate me up. I did make gains, but it was unsustainable long term. I think it scared me away from true linear progression. I decided to switch to one of Candito's 6 week powerlifting programs which worked in phases and I felt a lot better. Starting with fairly light load, but higher volume and tapering week by week into some really big sets. I had never trained this way before and it was refreshing. I also made significant gains. I am trying not to turn my training into some weird experiment where I am constantly jumping from program to program, but it's difficult when you're a beginner/intermediate with no formal knowledge. You have to try different things and see what works for you. That's why I watch your videos, because it's insightful to hear someone with genuine knowledge and experience about the topics I am interested in, so thank you Mr Bromley!
I think we all have to go through a try it all phase, at least to learn what works for us and doesn't. Good luck lifting!
I did something similar to you and made nsum sustainable and I'm still on it. I have a home gym it made things a little easier and effiecient. What I changed was I followed the nsun's upper body portion of the programming and used candito's 6 week lower body portion of the programming. Candito's 6 weeks LP bench portion lacks volume so I replaced it with nsuns. Also each week cycles takes me around 8 to 10 days to complete as I break my compound and accessories consecutive seperate days. This allows me to recover better between the splits. I had been doing this for over a a year and a half and still making good progress.
I don't think it's program hoping if you actually finish the program. Or give it a fair shot. Seems like it's only a problem if you change programs every 2-3 weeks
I tried nsuns when I was younger (25 or so) and was a bit past the novice phase. I did make progress, but I definitely burnt out quickly.
I did 531 for probably about a year.... didn't make that much progress tbh.... started bullmastiff a few weeks ago and it seems like a better fit....thanks Bromley
NSUNS may be a bastardization of 2 OG programs but it does force you to learn to work hard and eventually burn out lol, I found myself having to eat much more just to survive it, frequency, volume and intensity all at 10 like you said.
Lol it's all in that's for sure. I was eating like a pig and sleeping like a baby. I was still tired. Hit an absolute wall 𧱠I will say in terms of disciplines though my form on all the compounds got to a respectable level fast
@@brockburns2575 Yeah that's another consequence of this program that I didn't think about, you get so many touches with the big 3 that technique refinement is a natural consequence if you don't want to head to snap city
couldnt have said it better, this was my first real strength program way back when i was 16 and it blew up all my lifts. but looking back its amazing i recovered from it at all and i wish i knew more about junk volume and how important it is to recover properly lol
I had great progression with NSUNs
It's funny what you said about it being too much because running nsuns 531 I saw great progress, made great gains, and realized that training on it wasn't sustainable. I made a variation of it and took the compound volume way down to a total of 8 sets vs 17 and changed the accessories a good amount. Feel way better physically and mentally. Not as tired and fatigued all the time
what exactly did you change about the sets? which sets did you cut out?
@@vik7082 I set up my own compounds and changed the primary set from 9 to 3 and the secondary compound to 5. All 5 days got that treatment though for bulking, the primary compound is also 5 sets not 3. Upper body days have 3-4 compounds with a focus on shoulders and upper back/lats. Leg days are minimalist as I also sprint. They include no more than 2 accessories as each also has back squat and deadlift. Accessories are mainly for hamstring, also 1 optional leg Hypertrophy exercise choosing from (leg press, leg extension)
A buddy and I have ran it 2x
We called it âSunzu art of warâ.đ
Nsuns has been some of my best progression lol even if you stall out, you push through over a couple weeks.
Been doing nsuns for the last 7 weeks this program is no joke. Went from repping out 205 to repping for 230 with ease.
how it is now?
@@helgil6545 my bench now 250 for 2 Squat went from 265-330
And then overhead now 165
@@steveyg2687 very great, thinking of switching to nsuns from ppl myself
@@steveyg2687 update? just started nSuns weeks 1 and somewhat concerned with the volume. Are you still progressing?
I'll keep my empire barbell shirts but happy you got the sponsor ;)
What's a good program to run after NSUNS then? I took my flatbench from 280 for 1 to 315 for 3. I hit 225 for 21 and 240 for 19. That's crazy bench gains. So what works after NSUNs? I haven't ran a program betterthen NSUNs and I've been lifting for almost 20 years
Would love to see a review of Strength Lab by Matt Vincent. Really appreciate all the content you are putting out!
"All I've worn up until now is old contest t-shirts and basketball shorts since 2007." Feel so attacked right now đ
Every time I try another program than NSuns I go back to it. I've done it on a cut, on bulking, whenever. It just works for ME.
exactly if you see growth and progression no reason to switch these videos critiquing programs are essentially useless because it is up to the indivual to try out and see what works for them its all about expirimentation
Do more Sheiko content, was fascinating to learn about it at a basic level
Agreed!
I definitely had success after stronglifts progress stalled. Took my bench from 185 to 250
Deadlift from 315ish-405
Squats from 235-320
But it also took my soul along with it
Not for the faint of heart. And you will fatigue out like no other
Over how much time were those results?
Iâve done upper lower 4x a week for 10âmonths as a beginner and have made barely any progress in strength but made ok progress in aesthetics. I am wanting to focus more on strength and tried switching up my rep scheme and i keep stalling. Have stalled for months now. I was thinking about running this just for strength gains. Is this a good idea?
Can you review some powerbuilding programs or make a video explaining the difference btwn powerlifting and powerbuilding? From what I understand, it's doing top sets and backoff sets for the main 3 lifts and taking the accessories to failure, but is there more to it?
There isn't a hard line difference. Powerlifting programs imply that most of the work is from the main lifts for strength specific rep ranges whereas powerbuilding is basically bodybuilding with a lot of varied reps and exercises and a little bit of strength work thrown in. Historically, there have been a ton of champion powerlifters who haven't done strict 'powerlifting' focused training. If it makes you bigger and stronger, if it makes you a better powerlifter
Haha, The Mullet! I couldnât have picked a better name myself! đ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Łđ€Ł
Ran nsuns for 2 months. Made solid gains in my squat but thatbwas mostly it.
I take issue with the title. Mullets are a load of fun, and way more functional than you think. I got one like 15? years ago for a joke for a party, and ended up with it for two more years because the thing was so damn comfy. You have the hair out of your eyes, and the cooler head advantage of short hair, while keeping the sun off your neck and the general party vibes that long hair brings. People who diss the mullet are people who are afraid of living.
đđđ
It has worked for me before and I am about to start it again for about 8 weeks, what would you recommend moving to after that? A regular 531?
It definitely feels like a brute force program, making you work hard rather than smart. I don't think it's good that both main lifts every day are for the same body part. It would have been smarter to have like squat + bench, deadlift + bench or OHP. Set the intensity a bit lower on purpose and then it's a decent program for which you don't have to deload after every 3 weeks (as I did)
I wonder if theyâll make a Barbell Apparel suit one day. I have big quads and always have to get my suits tailoredâŠ. I do like 531 big but boring where you also do 5x10 on the lifts and still get good volume in.
I would not be surprised. I got a few dress shirts and dress pants and they are incredible.
This was my first ever gym program almost 5 years ago. Trained with it for around a year and the progress was really, really great both in strength and aesthetics, to the point where people asked me if I juiced after I posted some progress pics on reddit (I didnât and still donât).
nSuns definitely taught me what hard work means, but I moved to smarter programming since then. I tried coming back to it a few times but now being an intermediate lifter it is completely unsustainable for me - Iâm wiped after 2 weeks on it.
Iâve ran it for 3 years, canât do it for more than 8 weeks max, my numbers suck and Iâve sustained a butt load of injuries
Me and a few buddies ran this program and made a ton of gains especially considering how little time it took with the linear progression (+50lbs to deads +40lbs Squat + 30lbs Bench). Tons of nostalgia but not everyone can handle this much work even as a beginner which I realized cuz a lot people I recommended this to didn't make those same gains lmao. If your early enough in your lifting career and willing to put everything you have into those amraps it can teach you just how important effort is and that you are capable of much more than you think. But of course its not very sustainable (fatigue + overuse injuries galore lol). Sometimes ignorance is bliss.
Hey, man. I know this is not the right video for it, but do you mind to clarify something about your step 3 week periodization? For how many cycles could you run 3 week waves pushing 2% every 4° week? What to do when stall?
Deload
@@Jmack7861 Hey, brother. Thanks a lot for taking your time, really. So not an especific amount of times recomended 3 week cycles, right? Do until staals and maybe remove 10~15% of your current weight and start again? Lets say i stall at a 100kg squats by failing a prescribled set, i start over with 85~90kg?
@@TheLASCADAO Yes. Only deload when you fail. If the weights are still going up and you're still feeling good, keep pushing forward.
Pushing 2% every 3 weeks is a very reasonable pace to keep it going for a longe time.
Please do more Sheiko content Bromley
Hi Alex, when is KONG coming online?
Thank you for the great content.
Same Question
yea waiting for it as well, rly hyped about it
Just sent an email. The button has been pushed!
I'm running nSuns right now on my 12th week. My bench has blown up which was surprising since I've always had trouble benching, but I guess that meant I had more room to improve upon. I'm running it to come back from a cut which overlapped with the first 3 weeks or so of my run so far. I figured I could use an aggressive program to reap the benefits fast instead of slowly progressing through Wendler 531 for example. If all goes well I think I'll continue running nSuns until spring some time with the goal of reaching a 3 plate squat before the next cut. I think this program can let me do that. Again, I view it as way to get my lifts up pretty quick in a reliable way. Once progression slows down, I hope I'll be somewhat satisfied with my lifts, and will then begin something more prolonged and secure like 531BBB. I feel like nSuns work better for me now until I have more respectable + tougher numbers, then I'm sure I'll need a progression scheme like Wendler 531.
I'd advise you to listen to your body if you're doing this - don't keep blindly running it until you have the arbitrary number goals that you have currently in your head. If you injure yourself you will end up making worse progress than if you'd just ran a more moderate program.
@@channel2fitnessandhealth875 Thanks I'll keep that in mind
oi oi... my dude you can get a 3 plate squat doing literally anything with squatting, nothing intense necessary for that one
my first 405 squat came while running baseline 531 with 1 set of squats a week total
I ran the 6 days version about 4 months into lifting and made great progress for about a month and a half until stalling out, tried running it again a year later when i added 50+ pounds to all my lifts already and i burned out in a week, not sustainable for intermediates imo
if you look at the reviews on boostcamp, most people program hop every 3 or so weeks anyway.
Honestly I was surprised by that at first as well but when I started nsuns on boostcamp I understood why, it's because the app first starts prompting you to review the program after the three week mark. Those people behind the reviews have just filled out the review-form the app throws in your face once the three week mark have been reached.
Edit: week not year
@@Barrylyndon1234 gotcha. I write all my stuff in spiral bound like the 48yr old I amđ, so I haven't tried any on app
I like my infotainment how I like my hair cuts - business up front party in the back.
I am looking at the monday that Alex has on screen right now and the program seems to be asking me to do nine sets Bench PLUS eight sets press PLUS accessories for chest AND arms AND back? Like, how in the world are you supposed to sustain this volume while maintaining at least some base level quality?
3 sets per session that is 3 weeks bruh.
The main lift progression is based on a 531 variation called spinal tap, not Sheiko.
in Spinal Tap, you do all 3 weeks worth or work every week, which is basically what the main work is.
That variation might be an influence but the creator literally cited Shieko and the specific rep schemes he borrowed.
@@AlexanderBromley Your video is the first time I hear this. where did you read this?
@@TheOwlol archive.vn/2017.01.27-015129/https:/www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/5icyza/2_suns531lp_tdee_calculator_and_other_items_all/ Scroll down to where someone asks about the reasoning behind the 5 - 5 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 4 - 6 - 8
@@AlexanderBromley What nsuns cites Sheiko for is the auxiliary progression with the undulating reps.
From that link you sent: "The second lift is inspired by one of the many rep schemes used in the sheiko 4 day advanced medium load program"
You can see that programming choice eg in Sheiko's #31 and Advanced Small and Medium Load.
@@AlexanderBromley Thanks!
I've run it a few times and it has way too much volume and intensity. I was able to advance the training max for three or four weeks before I went back to 5/3/1 FSL or something else more manageable
You didnât run it long enough to adapt to the volume, if you did you would have made much more progress on Nsuns
@@Jmack7861 Asinine take with no regard to individual differences.
There are lots of people who need practice writing programs so don't be afraid to be a test dummy and don't be afraid to be critical of what you need to tell them. People don't get good at this without doing it a lot and getting good feedback.
Had great progress with this program with a few tweaks. Just did my squat and dead accessories with 3x10+ with small increments. The biggest problem is burn out and CNS fatigue after running it for a while.
I know lots of people that had amazing results with nSuns. Didnt watch video yet just saying
nSuns teaches you to work hard, and get into the weeds. Most folk donât work that hard.
Thatâs the difference, itâs a âhard workâ teacher, not a good programme.
@@joshdawson5850 yeye, boss
Off topic but you now have more subscribers than Matt Wenning
"5 3 1 & Sheiko!" đ€Ł
Mustard and birthday cake you say... Interesting đ€
you need the context of what this program is fighting against for it to make sense. its an anti stronglifts and starting strength program. its whole premise is based on the idea that beginners can handle volume and should actually work hard. theres weeks on ss where you only bench once a week for a 5x5. its supposed to be run by begginers for a short period of time until they can transition to an intermediate program.
that makes it worse
How does that make it worse. Ss and sl are atrocious programs.
You can fight low volume programs in a smart way too you know, compared to what nSuns did.
@@johnmack7050 what do you dislike about them? SS is a great beginner program if you don't follow Rip's diet advice, and the book explains how to do the lifts better than any youtube video has so far.
@@magicjohnsins General complaints I've heard (which are all valid) are too little DL volume, too much Squat volume, no direct arm work, and you wind up looking like a T-Rex with big quads and little everything else.
There are better programs but beginners like simplicity which makes sense
Ran both n suns and Bromleys Bullmastiff. Made much better strenght gains and also better aesthetics on n suns. He will be one of his main comoetitors on boostcamp which is probably why hes so anti- n suns. N suns isnt sustainable for a long period as youre always going full out but the initial gains you make are immense.
I can't believe you don't see the brilliance of this program. I mean, it's right there. With the power of these two programs combined it becomes a super program, that will be exponentially more efficient than any of the bald guy shit that you do.
I did science with the internet, so I know what I'm looking at here, and I'm telling you... This is the next big thing. If you don't do the weights like this, you will be left in the dust.
The trouble is that fundamentally this cannot work. Sheiko's underlying principle is that adaptation is unpredictable and cannot be forced. There's no planned progression, because there's no plan. You do the work, day in and day out, always leaving something in. Then, when you feel a bit stronger, you bump the weights up. It's step loading in a more sophisticated way.
Linearly progressing Sheiko makes absolutely no sense to me, as someone who's trained Sheiko for years.
At this point, there's thousands of testimonials to the contrary. It's THE reddit program, and seems to work for most beginner/intermediates, especially in that it teaches them what hard work means. I've never ran it because I'm not really into letting other people do my programming for me, but I was watching it take off from the get go. Had conversations with him when he was 2suns, and 3suns, before he became nsuns (the suns are his children- I had to put it together myself, but have had it confirmed.) Point is, reddit is absolutely chock full of success stories of people who have run nsuns.
Basically, he did his research, committed to a plan, put in the work, and had pretty great results. I doubt that he still responds much because like I said, thousands of success stories, plus a family, but he always seemed like a decent dude.
@@alexschutz7283 Sure, great. Let's count the medals, though.
Powerlifting is a sport, and in sports, only winners count.
@@alexschutz7283 Problem is it was promoted as being the best program for beginners - no matter their goals. How many beginners who had the goal of hypertrophy would have been much better off with a less hyper specific program? And also confirmation bias - how many beginners did not post their experience because they did not make good progress/got injured?
I saw this on reddit when I was first learning how to program. Even then I was smart enough to say "there is no way you can do a program with an AMRAP near single every week." Too much volume, too high an intensity and unclear body-building work after. The appeal of it was that it was free and you got to go heavy and do volume. Unfortunately in practice that doesn't really work.
WOW finally someone big reviews this. I ran this for close to two years, made some of my biggest gains and was literally thinking of starting this January 1st again. Excited to hear this.
Im currently running it. Im on 3 week of the 4 day version using the hardy app. I do enjoy the simplicity of the two excercises but I quickly realized that this is something Im just running to give my body a big boost in strength. I plan on stopping after another month or so and then starting 531 big but boring.
goddamn shieko was hard af to run
Nsuns lad here, 585 deadlift 315 bench and 450 squat at 18. But I do see your points
531 nSuns has nothing to do with Sheiko. It's just Spinal Tap (a variation Wendler lays out in his book) with rearranged sets.
I ran this as a complete beginner, recommended by reddit, huge mistake. I have very long arms and definitely did not/do not need this much pressing volume. I was bashing my head against the wall for 6 months, thinking that this was how you are supposed to train. That was 6 years ago, and I started making much better progress with both lower intensity and volume. If you are a beginner, I do not recommend jumping into this amount of volume/intensity - you have the uninformed mindset that this will give you the best results, but that is very unlikely.
I ran this program several times until I burnt out each time. Got much stronger and used to heavy weight and large volumes but its total unsustainable and will beat you like the redheaded stepchild of a rented mule
Skip to 11:13 to get to the analysis
The thing is, this program was never intended to be ran by a lot of people. It was literally one guy posting his bastardized workout and everyone flocked to it. I've heard of how brutal it is and the program makes no sense.
Iâd still recommend Nsuns 5/3/1 over any of wendlers 5/3/1.
I know more people that have gotten a lot of out Nsuns if they can adapt to the volume than any of wendlers versions of 5/3/1.
Then your looking in the wrong places
@@johnsonjohnny675 no, Iâm not. If you wanna make minimal progress for no reason and never adapt to being able to handle higher volumes to progress when youâre more advanced when you need actual decent programs then sure, run 5/3/1 until you have a mediocre s/b/d after 7 years of running it. Otherwise, use a decent program.
Jim Wendler is a much better coach than a random redditor with 0 coaching experience dude. 531 is proven to work for decades at this point
@@sushiter itâs proven to be trash compared to countless other programs.
Yes heâs good at coaching highschool football players that are effectively novices to weight training.
@@Jmack7861 like I said you don't know what you're talking about...
General PL workout
Main
Back off work
Weakness building / bodybuilding
531
Main
Supplemental
Accessories.
Some 531 programs literally have upwards of 100 rep sessions...
If you are not up to date on 531 don't comment. It's more than an article from 14 years ago...
Should sumo wrestle instead
Does anyone want to try my mashup of conjugate and Bulgarian training?
No
Sounds like a terrible idea for most people
Can you review Athlean X beast ppl?
Is it just me, or is there no sound?
I didn't have audio now I do
@@fritzduncan4720 yeah, must have been a glitch in the Matrix. The sound is there now for me, too.
One of the most annoying things about nSuns for me, was how easy half the lifts were. Most of the sets are sub maximal, and the T2 lifts felt like a joke. Also the AMRAP set on the end of deadlifts was downright stupid IMO, who the hell wants to do a 20+ set on deadlifts where your cardio fails before your strength?
I made progress on it, but I found myself stalling on lifts quite a bit, but honestly I think I am just too stupid to run a program with specific RIRs, as I just prefer to take sets to failure. I still do the deadlift portion though, but the final AMRAP set I do a heavier 10 rep set. Would be interested in a deadlift program with less sets so I don't spend 40 mins deadlifting.
literally reddit: the program
Doesn't nsuns deadlift more than you at a lower weight? Maybe you should try HIS programs as he is stronger than you.
What does nsuns deadlift?
Too complicated for my dog brain. I prefer the "train harder than last time" method, and I don't even like that guy.
The LP approach to training with zero attention given to autoregulation is dogshit for anyone other than a novice - by novice, a trainee still able to ad weight in a from session to session whilst maintaining the same volume. Much like communism, I'm not sure how many times it has to fail before people wake up.
531 has preplanned deloads... Along with certain triggers for when you are feeling stronger than usual
@@johnsonjohnny675 I've ran 531 years ago, or some version as there seems to be about fifty thousand variations. Never really delivered the goods for me anyway. Good programming doesn't require pre planned de loads, and even Westside realised years ago that basing working weights on percentages of a lifters 1RM is fraught with problems.
Problem is people think any critique of 531 is shitting on Wendler himself. Not so.
@@geneharrogate6911 you're projecting. I didn't say anything about Jim. I said 531 has methods to solve the problems you presented. Autoregulation. Personally I think rpe based programs are overrated And most people don't know how hard they are actually working.
@@johnsonjohnny675 Not at all. I cant count how many times I've read Wendler fanboys assuming you're playing the man not the ball when you push back against 531. Same with any critique of Westside having the loyal jump to Louie's defence.
Training a set to max reps isn't autoregulation and has been proven over and over to be sub optimal with anything over around 60% 1RM. A blend of RPE and percentage based seems to cover most bases. If you working max isn't established within the workout _on the day_ then how can you even be sure the numbers you hit three weeks ago are even relevant?
@@geneharrogate6911 you are projecting because I haven't brought up westside or Jim you did. I simply said you don't know the system as well you think you. Not sure where some of your statements are coming from. " Training to max reps isn't autoregulation" for example.
If you are talking about the joker sets. Jokers are to only be done when you are feeling " good" that's pretty much the definition of autoregulation.
While I do agree that Jim goes overboard with his deloads I believe that in most cases it's better to be safe than sorry.
Lastly if you're work 3 weeks ago isn't " relevant" A you're probably a beginner B you're using to light of weight or both. There are plenty of strong guys who use rpe. There are plenty of strong guys who use percentages. My only argument is that most gym goers don't know what hard work is. And their rpe 9 is probably a 7.