When to Upgrade/ Why CTL-k Mex? - Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance
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- čas přidán 3. 07. 2024
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10:40 also it should be pointed out one thing:
The order to do it is 1) CtrlK the mex. 2) Reclaim the wreck. 3) Build a Tier 3 Mex.
Meaning: If you do not have a t3 engi: Then you can not do that in the first place, because you'd be stuck after Step 2. So a T3 Engi being in the example is a given.
I think I get what you say. So in this example he uses 51 seconds to build the t3 mex after ctr+K, that’s 51 seconds not producing 9 mass pr. Second, which means the difference in mass should be 459 less between the two ways of building a t3 mex. This means that the window is slightly smaller, for how long you can allow yourself to use this tactic. If you stall or build too slow, you will lose mass instead of gain mass.
Thank you for this, I'm new to the game and there is so much to learn!
Amazing tutorial. Incredibly easy to understand your explanation and spreadsheet. Will definitely incorporate this as a beginner player to FAF! Thank you!
This was so highly professional, I need to binge the Twitch-clips comp to balance it out xD
Ok, again BRNK didn't build radar.
Oh nevermind, it's not an actual game :)
STILL COUNTS
Great explanation, thanks.
To compare the numbers properly, dont you have to provide the upgrading T2 mex the same buildpower as you do for the new T3 mex?
The only time you dont ctrl-k in my very humble opinion is when you have hives/kenels nearby which can build for you. You can have a lot of build power very quickly just blitz through the upgrade, just uses crazy amounts of power so in most situations it isnt viable.
No. The upgrade costs the same amount of mass and energy as the build so it's always better to kill the t2 for reclaim especially if you have lots of bp so you can reduce the downtime. It would only be worse if the t2 would produce more mass than you get in the time you need to build the t3 but that's 81 seconds as you can see in the chart. So if you need more than 81 seconds you shouldn't do it. I normally wait for 3k mass in the bank so i can build it in like 10 seconds for max profit.
4:45 it takes longer than 90 seconds to pay for itself. The cost is 900 and the increase is in production is 4 assuming you already had the T1. 900/4=225. So it takes 3 minutes and 45 seconds for it to pay itself back. That is more than double the time mentioned in the video. So if you think you can make a big enough army within this time to overwhelm the enemy (225 sec is a lot of build time), then it actually might not be worth even getting that T2.
I lack the APM for this
so I just mark all of them for upgrade and pause them and set a clump of engis on a daisy chain to upgrade all of them
Make sure you also see Heaven's still relevant video about remembering to unpause those mexes.
This is what I tend to do i always never get the call k right when I do it I just play it safe
Did I miss it or did you not mention your 90s rule of that paying off? Might be more interesting to know if one wants to apply the strategy themselves.
Also, this problem can be understood without spreadsheets. This might be more or less understandable for people depending on how you think.
So the general idea is the same, t3 mex upgrade and building it from scratch is the same cost either way (c_3). The T2 mex produces resources while upgrading (p_2). When you destroy a T2 mex (CTRL+K) it leaves a wreck (w_2). This means if you destroy a t2 and build a t3 faster than the t2 could produce its own wreck in mass you gain mass (p_2 * t_build < w_2). This means t_build < w_2/p_2 = 729m/(9 m/s) (9 mass per sec is the ringed production) = 81s. Hence if you can build the t3 mex under 81s you gain mass from the reclaim.
I might actually have to redo this vid, seems I left out a couple things...... That marker where the t2 mex produces 729 mass is at around the 90 second mark. That's the point you need to beat for the reclaim to be greater in value.
Youre not factoring in the few hundred mass you loose by destroying it (total cost of T2 is more than 729 u get back in wreck), this few hundred loss needs to be counted when we're talking totals and efficiency; because just upgrading it doesnt yield any losses as destroying it does.
Plus since building is heavily assisted and upgrade is not, a test using same build power to assist upgrade needs to be done to compare time plus subtracting mass loss of destroying the T2 (total mass to build T2 - 729 reclaimed) for this to be an accurate comparison...as it is theyre are a couple crucial variables that arent being held constant or addressed, making this result inaccurate
@@ckimsey77 The cost for upgrading the T3 mex the same cost in mass is required as building one from scratch. This means the initial cost of the T2 mex is not of interest at all.
Only the mass differnence between the reclaim (80% of the original cost) and the mass the mex would produce while upgrading are important
The build power (and spare mass) is "left out" as it is the result of the calculation and not one of the starting points. The 81s you need to beat to be mass efficient can be transformed into a minimum amount of build power and a minimum draw of mass to reach the break even point.
@@FactoryofRedstone but if you spend 1000+ mass to build the T2, and only recover 729 then thats a net loss of roughly 300 mass...where if you upgrade it you dont loose any mass because the structure wasnt destroyed; this is my point and is irrelevant to the T3 cost. Follow? Any building destroyed youre gonna have a net loss of mass because the mass reclaimed from the wreck is only 70%ish of what you put in to build it
@@ckimsey77 For mex upgrades (this does not apply to factories, as far as I am aware) you need to pay the full price on the upgrade, your T2 mex price does not contribute to the cost of the upgrade.
Building the T3 mex and upgrading is the same cost!
If you upgrade the T2 mex disappears you don't get any of the 1000 mass back! With reclaiming you get 729 back instead of 0.
All this discussion is for FAF, not the steam or original versions, it might be different there.
For me this comparision lacks equality. Having the X engis or not are a fundamentally different assumption. So it's apples with pears.
You have to compare "Upgrade T2 MEX assisted by X Engies" vs. "Build New MEX T3 with X Engies". Because you have the option in game or not.
I guess (havn't done the math): It would always be better to use engies assisting the Upgrading MEX , because it will finish faster (MEX has bp) and it will produce mass while upgrade.
I assume: buildtime of T3 MEX = upgradetime, never stall in both scenarios, cost of T3 MEX = T2 MEX + Upgrade.
So ctrl-k never makes sense. What do i miss?
What Brnk doesn't say is that it's the same price to upgrade or to build new - 4600 either way. So by Ctrl+K, you are getting the mass from the wreck as bonus reclaim. But you are right, he did not control for build power -- if you have the engy there you of course will get the T3 mex up faster either way.
BRNK why in the excel when building/upgrading the mexes the total amount of mass increase? shouldn't it decrease for both cases of no cntrl+k and cntrl+k?
I dont know bro, i believe that you have to upgrade your mex to t2 once your reclaim reaches a positive income and before your mass capacity is full
Hi, Quick questions: this is all good if you have the mass to upgrade, but if you don't won't you be stalling for longer and missing out on the regular 9m for a much longer period?
If you don't have the income from mexes or reclaim and you don't have the mass in storage, just don't do it. It's that easy.
The key is to build the next faster than it takes the t2 mex to produce 729 mass. Guess I didn't make that totally clear, but generally speaking if you can't pull that off you shouldn't have been upgrading the mex in the first place
That's Calvin and Hobbes on your desktop, isn't it?
Not sure where? Not knowingly lol
Along these lines, if your base gets damaged, buildings get destroyed, should you reclaim them and then rebuild them?
Assuming you have ample build capacity, would it be best to reclaim them? I believe if you reclaim you get somewhere around 80 to 90% of the mass back, where as if you build it on the wreck of the old building, that starts the building at 50%, so it only ‘reclaims’ 50%.
Is this assumption correct? Or flawed?
You forget that rebuilding makes you save half the energy cost too, so if you lost some PGens, it's better to rebuild them.
Um.... that part is complicated. Maybe fuel for another video xD
@@BRNKoINSANITY
I've been meaning to know this info. Please make a video on this!!!
don't you need to subtract the cost of building the T3 mex from the calculation, and the cost of upgrading the T2 to T3, in order to see which ends up ahead in terms of total mass gained?
They cost the same amount, with the same build time. Upgrade or build fresh, doesn't matter
@@BRNKoINSANITY This is why i'd wished that upgrading t3 from t2 should've been twice as fast than building fresh one. You gain more from reclaiming than simply upgrading. Or perhaps mass extractors should only be constructed at tier 1 and then needs to get upgraded.....
@@BRNKoINSANITY thanks, that makes a lot of sense then, thank you for the video and the reply
first always wanted to do that :P
Is this an accurate comparison tho?? Cuz building the T3 you have 6 eng building it, which is WAY faster than an unaided upgrade...What about if those 5 T2 eng assisted the upgrade to T3 would it still be better to build from scratch??
Also if you upgrade there's no investment loss (the 729 you reclaim isnt free mass), where cont-k you loose a few hundred mass reclaiming only 732ish back of the 1000+ invested into it. This loss is overcome in your example by gen. way more in time by this method, but it requires a T3 eng and 5 T2 tied up to do it. What if you need to up and no T3 or extra eng are available in area? What if you only have the T3 eng but no other extra to assist? What if you have extras to assist you just assist upgrade rather than rebuild then how's the numbers work out?
One thing ive never checked close enuf...is the extra resources used by assisting eng on an upgrade just showing how much theyre adding to the cost fulfillment, or is it extra cost being burned thats wasted/excess resources used in order to increase speed a bit??? Though, those could equal out to be one in the same depending on the extra cost to time reduction ratio; I always assumed it was showing how much res the assisting unit was contributing toward the total cost and thats why you got it faster.
If this is the case, then the only reason youre getting more from rebuilding is because youre comparing a 6 eng assisted build to an unassisted upgrade so of course the one w way more build power is gonna win out. Id like to see if this is still better using equal build power on both to keep it a fair comparison
Not sure how it is in the base game, but videos like this are always about FAF. So the following statements are for when you are using FAF as well.
Going from T2 to T3 using the upgrade costs 4.6k mass. Doing this allows the T2 to continue collecting mass over time.
Building a T3 with an engineer also cost 4.6k mass. Doing this will give you 729 mass reclaim, but no over time.
So by upgrading the T2 to T3 you won't be able to utilize the invested mass of the T2. By destroying the T2 you can reclaim most of it first. So you could say that mass is somewhat free. You are completely right by stating that build power has influence in this test. With the same assistance the upgrade should be faster since the T2 also brings build power. What should be looked at to determine which method is better is wether you can build the T3 faster than that the T2 can collect 729 mass over time. Since T2 generate 9 mass (when fully surrounded by storage) this will take 81 seconds. It also takes like 5-15 seconds to reclaim (depending on the amount of build power). This is extra time that the T2 otherwise could have generated mass. This need to be subtracted from the 81 seconds to know how fast you need to be able to build the T3 for the break even point.
TLDR: if you can make the T3 within 70 seconds it's better to ctr+k and build from scrap. Otherwise use upgrade.
Free Real Estate!
At 11:10 - what is the math for your claim that you need 1100 mass in storage to build a T3 mex after reclaiming the T2?
Was also wondering about the math here
I think he's referring to his 82 income in the configuration he's built at the start. If you have 82mps, 1100 in storage and using the build power of 5xT2 and 1xT3 engineers, you would build a t3 in 42,64 seconds and not stall on mass.
@@Jonsse this right here. I forgot to circle back to it lol. At 9 capped t2 mex, you need 1160 mass in storage at the time of the start of t3 mex build to finish mex at the point of stall. I set up this scenario super specifically so that the numbers worked at a level where most people would be doing the shift.
@@BRNKoINSANITY Alright thanks for the clarification, this is a neat little tech I'd like to practice.
That assumes you're stopping all other builds and factories, though, doesn't it?
doea anyone know how to fix high ping even though i have a brand new laptop
there is no "fixing" high ping
1) see if there's anything wrong with your drivers for ethernet / wifi
2)stop using VPN if you do
3)get better internet
hardline connection to LAN/router - no wifi
...That's dumb. They should just patch the game so that's not a thing. -_-
If the cost of a T3 mex from scratch is 4600 mass and the cost to upgrade from a T2 to T3 is 4600 as well there is zero benefit to not simply using the engineers build power to assist the MEX in the upgrade. In fact I can't think of any case where this makes any sense to do, the reason. THERE IS NOT ONE. The T2 mex itself generates mass the entire time it is upgrading to T2, if you destroy the mex first, it generates none, so you net lose that mass. Argument for destroying the mex is that you recoup that mass from the wreck. However you still have to put mass in from another source to finish the mex so you are in effect using more resources to accomplish the same job because of the lost build power and lost mass. During the upgrade the T2 mex also produces build power. Destroy the mex and that buildpower is lost as well. Where is the net buildpower and mass gain by destroying the mex? Simple fact: There isn't any benefit to destroying a mex and then building it from scratch. If you use the same build power to assist the mex from T2 to T3 you overall gain more mass, because you get to T3 faster. The whole idea that there is a point where you can get more mass by building faster is wrong.