The Messiah before Jesus | Israel Knohl
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- Join us for a tell-all conversation with a leading biblical scholar on what really happened at the trial of Jesus, the concept of the Divine Messiah, the Holiness Code in Leviticus, Messianism and Mysticism in the Bible and the Deification of Moses - and what all of this might mean for us today.
Dr. Israel Knohl is a Senior Research Fellow of the Kogod Research Center at Shalom Hartman Institute. He has a doctorate in Bible from The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, where he is the Yehezkel Kaufmann Professor of Bible.
Professor Knohl has served as a visiting professor at Harvard University, University of California at Berkeley, Stanford University and the University of Chicago Divinity School.
www.hartman.org.il/person/isr...
Think better. Do better. Hartman scholars bring you the big Jewish ideas we need for this moment. Study with them in free virtual classes or watch the videos at: www.shalomhartman.org/ideasfortoday - / channel
00:00 Excerpt
00:48 The Trial of Jesus
08:25 The Divine Messiah
22:48 Was Jesus' claim radical?
27:53 Israel’s Thesis - the Holiness Code
35:16 The Priestly Agenda
40:30 Messianism
50:07 Mysticism in the Bible
57:01 The Apotheosis of Moses
1:02:25 Scandals
1:11:09 Meaning
1:13:25 Book of Bahir - Meaning of Blessing
1:21:40 Personal Reflection
1:26:33 The Takeaway
1:35:55 Niggun
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Love this whole series. It's so valuable. Thanks for producing it! And I hope you continue!
You’re most welcome. I’m glad you’re enjoying it. More to come 🙏🏼
I write the Christians, but the same goes for the Jews, as far as I see.
The bar for excellence is held by the religious, not high, not even low, but left non-existent as god.
The religious are compelled by lack of reason to compensate with fantasyland vocabulary used in an academic setting.
Power is addictive, & the Christian enjoys the delusion of having a deity handy for ultimate free passes & answers.
Projecting certainty of having been authorized by a deity, just feels right.
Seeing the purchase of fantasyland vocabulary is a bonus.
Any god outside of fiction is an absurdity the illiterate observes.
Freud wrote the antidote to Christianity is literacy.
Those with one foot in fantasyland authorize themselves to weigh-in on whatnot as if Earth had gravity-free zones & magic.
If there were a god, you would think he would produce something with all the computing power, instead of guys wearing hairy coats, eating bugs & dipping.
It is the religious who don't have ears to hear, being a wicked generations seeking signs.
These are the wolves in sheep's clothing: My sheep hear My voice,
Even Jesus The Nailed, says faith is worthless if you can't move mountains by voice-command.
The religious don't have ears to hear, the books of God are filled with faith & prayers:
Nothing fails like prayers in a children's hospital, the religious are only into convincing themselves.
The Religious Podium Jockey should not take himself so seriously, nobody should.
The religious have no quality-controls.
Theologians grant the titles to each other without a deity certification.
One might expect a deity to make itself known to everyone without work performed in interpretations of old literature by guys like our verbose podium jockey.
Who in their right mind promotes travel as if best done with one foot in fantasyland vocabulary?
Nothing fails like prayer in a children's hospital, and these wolves in sheep's clothing advocate prayer & faith verbiage; ignoring Jesus Christ said faith was worthless if you can't move mountains by issuing voice commands.
A house divided cannot stand.
We vote because Christians have no quality-controls, & we desire those governing not making suggestions travel is best done with one foot in someone's fantasyland.
'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.''
Let us all forget it was secular law & order ending the inquisitions & witch-killings.
Let us ignore a wicked generation seeks signs.
Freud wrote the antidote to Christianity is literacy.
The Christians slapped their books on the Old Testament, & the Mormons glued theirs on to them both, thus proving Christians lack quality-control.
A deity unable to be acknowledged by everyone is a forgery based on literature.
Think not I come with peace, but sword.
I come to divide this that and the other thing, & I give you tax exempt status.
Oppression builds character among the dominated.
Who do you think nailed the king of the Jews, when Imperial Rome controlled temples & publications?
Just for the fun of it, have their Messiah say render to Caesar?
My sheep hear my voice.
Think not I come with peace, but sword.
The literate of the age; built religions & made propaganda, devalued the currency, too.
Marvel not I say you are all gods, and so on & so on.
Faith is a fantasyland term, & the Christians hate to hear it.
If faith had any value, then you could move mountains by voice-command.
"Furthermore, whenever any person or group of persons in a position of great power, and without the full knowledge and consent of the public, uses such knowledge and methodology for economic conquest -- it must be understood that a state of domestic warfare exists between said person or group of persons and the public."
- Silent Weapons for Quite Wars
'Violence at the core': Trump could face 55 years behind bars in DOJ indictment
He's lovely to listen too, I will finish listening to him tomorrow. Thank you for sharing.
You’re most welcome 🙏🏼 Enjoy
This series continues to be a great blessing. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for leading and participating in these conversations. This is what so many of us need right now
You’re so very welcome. Thank you for joining us.
This video was a discussion that encapsulated so many viewpoints. The conversation was well-focused on many points that are ‘hot’ topics today and truthfully needed clear answers for innumerable years. Professor Knohl’s analysis is poignant because he documents his ideas through textual scrutiny. The material covered ranged from quoting texts to grammatical and historical comparisons of texts with archeological evidence mixed in-a true gem of a talk relevant to peoples of all Western religions. Best of all: a captivating conversation and an ‘easy’ listen in our universe of misquotes, headlines, and superficial one-liners. Hats off to Zevi!
Humbled and amazed to be able to witness such a conversation. Brings a shallow peace but his thoughts come from the heights and his feelings from the depths.
There is so much in this interview. But as it ends with the greatest mystery of all (beyond the Divinity alone) the presence of evil in the world to which who can find an answer. To study and to sing and dance is at least a temporary... relief, solution? You made me cry Sir. You made me cry. Praise the G-d of all Mysteries. (I am a Christian but have been aware many Jews don't type the whole word.) Much love.
His understanding of the Bahir is profound! I humbly submit that you time stamp his discussion on this special book.
Beautiful talk 👍
i loved the singing at the end. It's a great talent to bring the high and the intellectual down to the human level. beautiful!
"beyond my expertise" proceeds to correct you on the exact wording. What a tremendous hokham
A beautiful, honest soul. Much respect to Dr. Knohl for his candid sharing of life experience intertwined with intellectual sleuthing and the boldness of humble proclamations that fall outside the box of groupthink. Bravo. His concluding words of vigorous prayer with the community combined with (at a separate time) the sedentary path of research and personal unresolved thoughts, these insights are polished diamonds. Equal gratitude and respect to Zevi for your empathy and evocative questions. Shabbat Shalom, Erev Shabbat -- Shabbat Nachamu, Beit Shemesh, 5783 (2023), Reuven.
wow, loved this talk, shared it with my dad, he'll enjoy this.
The tanach on the lap is a nice touch
Especially because he seems to have it memorised 😂
What a gem!
Dr. Knohl has many refreshingly-controversial insights that are eye opening and thought provoking.
The tidbit regarding the origins of the anointment custom is absolutely brilliant!
Thank you so much for this!
Much love ❤
I love this stuff...I'm always open to hearing fresh perspectives from an learned gentleman like this.
Glad you enjoyed it.
You really needed to define how you are using the word “divine”. People’s epistemologies differ greatly regarding this idea.
Regarding the elder man, beautiful vulnerability shining through! I greatly appreciate and associate with his wrestlings with the Most High!
Wow, another inspiring conversation ! Thank you both. The singing at the end brought tears to my eyes.
You’re most welcome. Thank you for joining us 🙏🏼
I am a Christian. I loved listening to this Rabbi's knowledge, insights, personal testimony & struggles of faith also. Interesting about the Pharisees not being at Jesus trial. Great interview.
Thank you friend. Welcome.
@@SeekersofUnity I love how the professor speaks. He speaks slowly and chooses every word carefully and truthfully, Its sounds like a river flowing. I love hearing Hebrew spoken. Your questions and knowledge of the Bible is excellent. Thanks for interpreting a lot of words also. I knew a lot of them but it all helps. God bless you both. It was wonderful listening and learning from both of you lovely men. I have subscribed. I am from New Zealand. Shalom.
You’re so very welcome.
Shalom,
Zevi
Dear Rabbi Knohl,
Shalom and trust that you are well. I listened to your information that the Pharisees were not at the trial. In as much as it sounds great, there are some passages which seem to suggest contrary:
1. Acts 3:14 “But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you”. This was Apostle Peter addressing the multitude that gathered at Pentecost. Why did not the Pharisees object by saying, but we were not there?
2. Acts 7:52 “Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; *of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers*:” Again, see the guilt and condemnation proclaimed by Stephen before the council….why did not the Pharisees object by saying that they were not involved?
3. Act10:39 “And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; *whom they slew and hanged* on a tree” Again and again, the guilt and condemnation proclaimed by the Apostles that all the religious institution of the day converged to kill the Messiah, Yeshua!
@@colinm610 Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Anointing with oil was always something that puzzled me when I was a Christian. It sounds uncomfortable and I could not imagine any benefit at all. Now I have a better understanding of why the practice was used.
I loved this. Especially your song at the end. I'm loving all these talks zevi. So inspiring . Thank you from my heart. ❤
You’re most very welcome. Thank you for joining us for this. Last one drops this Thursday.
Fantastic. This what Judaism is for me.
Israel Knohl brings a refreshing new voice and vision for our generation. It very much needed
Thanks for joining us for it Yehoshua.
Crazy journey, I found this channel through Esoterica, who I found through Atun-Shei (a history / filmography youtuber), who I found through Knowing Better, who has a bunch of videos dissecting problematic aspects of religion in fact :) (stuff like Mormonism though with their questionable beliefs and history).
To be completely honest experiences with pychedelics led me to reexamine my interest in spirituality and religion, having been raised by Christians in crisis as they questioned their church and didn't take me to attend it. I quickly connected my mystical experience under the influence to some metaphysical ideas from various traditions lurking in the back on my mind.
To discover the western (and eastern, though I didn't have any strong adversion to thinks like Buddhism to begin with as I did with the Abrahamic faiths) traditions of mysticism and ideas of unity of being has been immensely eye opening, thank you for this great educational work!
Excellent discussion. One of the most engaging I have seen in some time. Blessings
You’re welcome. Thank you for joining us.
Who could ever imagine we would have access to this Level of Depth?... from a deeply held View which Opens Up to the Infinite. Then, what is so moving, so mind blowing, so necessary is to See and be Inspired by the Impulse to Sythesize even more...and More... from Source Direct... without...in any way... leaving behind this Realization of Beauty. Thank you so much for sharing this Impulse; it gives Direction and Courage to Live from the Same.
Thank you both.
You’re most welcome 🙏🏼
Fascinating talk.
Thank you for joining us 🙏🏼
This was such a fruitful discussion. His comments about Parshat Kedoshim were particularly apt. Look at the Haftara of Parshat Tzav, Jeremiah 7 where the prophet rails against sacrifice and talks about how God wants righteousness, see how the prophetic reading is juxtaposed with the portion in Leviticus that is most about sacrificial worship. Similar yo the Prophetic reading on Yom Kippur day. All these things confirm the evolution of monotheism in my view. God might be found in worship and sanctified times and practices to show how God has a personal role in ruling daily life but also He commands our moral and ethical conduct..Walk humbly with your God as Micah would say!! What a lovely dear discussion. I learned so much!!
Thank you so joining us. I’m glad you enjoyed it :)
People think of these creator gods as far from us: we *are* them.
Very interesting. Keep doing the good work of sharing what it’s really important to our beliefs
Thank you 🙏🏼
I'm a life long subscriber if just for this talk alone.
Welcome 🙏🏼
From your discussion we can see both creator gods active... in 1972. We bring the love.
51:45 - 52:00 the reality of the God-Man relation and where one wants to put the line (if there is one) is the nexus of all meaningful theological and philosophical conversation.
well done, both of you
🙏🏼
wow the song at the end give me goosebumps. Thank you for the video, such a blessing for me. May I know the title of the song?
You’re very welcome. Thank you for joining us. The song is “Im Amarti.”
This is excellent! I 100% agree that the Pharisees did side with Paul and Peter.
In Acts 23:6 before the Council Paul describes himself saying “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. I am on trial concerning the hope of the resurrection of the dead!” Paul’s self-identification even after ‘seeing’ Jesus is as a Pharisee!
Paul was causing trouble because he was not encouraging those who accepted Jesus the Nazarene as the Messiah to become Jews, rather he told them to remain non-Jews and yet worship the God of Israel and rather than obeying the whole Torah only obeying the parts mentioned in Acts 15 regarding the “ger toshav”. We are told in Acts 15:
• You must abstain from eating food…
• offered to idols, Leviticus 17:8-9
• consuming blood, Leviticus 17:10-12
• the meat of strangled animals, Leviticus 17:13 and
• from sexual immorality Leviticus 18:26 as a summary covering Leviticus 18:6-23.
Paul and Barnabas no doubt appealed to Isaiah 42:6; Isaiah 49:6; Isaiah 52:10; Isaiah 60:3 and others to the conception of the gentiles receiving the Light and becoming worshippers of the God of Israel whilst still being the nations, not converting to Judaism.
In Acts 22:17-21 Paul says “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance and saw the Lord saying to me, ‘Hurry and get out of Jerusalem quickly, because they will not accept your testimony about me.’…Then he said to me, ‘Go, because I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’” Paul here reveals to the crowd that he encountered Jesus in a trance in the Jewish Temple and that He had told him to go and preach about him to the non-Jews. This was his prophetic calling.
In Acts 23:6-11 we see that even within the Great Sanhedrin many are willing to defend Paul. Paul describes himself as a “Pharisee, a son of Pharisees” and some of that party even suggest “What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?” in reference to the Light and Vision that Paul had seen of Jesus. So Paul has his defenders and I am sure many of them would have known him prior to this encounter anyway since he had been Gamaliel’s student.
If we sit down and read all the sermons in Acts making notes of their contents the following summaries can be made. The message is different to Jews than to non-Jews. To Jews a summary is:
• Jesus is the fulfilment of prophecies given to Israel.
• Jesus the Nazarene who was killed has been raised.
• Jesus is now seated at the Right Hand of God and has poured out the Spirit.
• By the Resurrection Jesus has been made by God to be Lord and Messiah.
• Repent and turn to God and your sins will be forgiven.
That is the 5 point message to Jews. To non-Jews the message is:
• The One True God is the maker of Heaven and Earth
• God does not have favourites but welcomes those who do what is right.
• Jesus the Nazarene who was killed has been raised.
• Jesus has been appointed by God as the Judge of the Living and the Dead.
• Jesus is the fulfillment of Prophecies given to Israel.
• Repent and turn to God and your sins will be forgiven.
In Romans 3:30-31 Paul writes “Since God is One, he will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then nullify the Torah through faith? Absolutely not! Instead we uphold the Torah.”
I would suggest a conversation with Andrew Perriman might also be helpful at some stage. He has a narrative-historical reading of the New Testament. He says, “The real fulfilment from a biblical point of view, is that the nations of the Greek-Roman oikoumenē, in effect the empire, which formerly served other gods and opposed YHWH and his people, came to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of Israel’s God (cf. Phil. 2:9-11).” He sees Jesus as God’s means to overthrow Greco-Roman Idolatry and submit Israel’s former oppressors to the rule of Israel’s God. This all happened within history. It actually happened.
SHEMA YEHOUDIM YESHOUA ADONAI ELOHENOU HA SHEM MACHIAH EHAD
EL ADONAI YESHOUA VAAERLANA BAROUHOU HABA BI SHEM ADONAI.......YOM TSELAV....VEKHOL ALE OLAM HADASHA MITSVA VEAFTA ADONAI YESHOUA KI LEOLAM HASDO
That’s a great great discussion, learnt a lot. Please do a podcast with Tau Malachi, Gnostic Priest who is a master in Jewish and Christian Kabbalah too. His widsom and works are great.
You’re most welcome. Thank you for joining us and for the suggestion.
@@SeekersofUnity My Brother It’s an honour to receive your comment. I really want to explore this Sophian tradition with Kabbalah and Tau Malachi’s writings are the best. It will be great if you can invite him in your Podcast
Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea who were Pharisees were present in the Sanhedrin during the trial of Jesus.
So the court was mixed between Pharisees and Sadducees and not only Sadducees.
About the moshi'ach part - I think I have read Rashi somewhere where he describes that the anointing takes place by drawing something (according to Rashi, in the shape of a Greek letter) on the forehead. I don't think I have read anywhere in tenach that people were anointed by pouring oil over their heads...
I have a question for him, King David was given a new revelation, that three people would come in different timelines. He said that the one that was predicted to come first would come second. Then there is a third to come after that. What is his view of that revelation?
My question is : the Jewish people was doing so great at the time of judges such as Joshua ben Nun and defeated all the kings of the region. Why did they go for a kingship system?
First, the messiah figure is prophetic and not a speculation of incidence as of then.
Very informative , I enjoyed it very much. Would be interested to hear some opposing interpretations to his. I feel like some of his assertions give Christianity more credibility. As a Jew (from Melbourne) I struggle with the idea of Messiah, as it’s just not in the Torah. I am very uncomfortable with the idea of “an extra seat next to GD” for the messiah idea. You can’t add to or divide the infinite. Seems to me Judaism always struggled and evolved and refined.
Psalm 66- He who kept our souls alive and did not let our foot falter. For you tested us. O GD, you refined us as though refining silver. You brought us into a trap; you placed chains on our loins. You caused man to ride at our head; we came through Fire and Water, and you too us to abundant satiety.
I liked reading your comment, very honest. I have a question for you- Can the infinite add the finite to himself?
אֲנִי־אָמַרְתִּי אֱלֹהִים אַתֶּם וּבְנֵי עֶלְיוֹן כֻּלְּכֶם
אָכֵן כְּאָדָם תְּמוּתוּן וּכְאַחַד הַשָּׂרִים תִּפֹּלוּ
As for Me, I had thought: you were gods
and the sons of the Most High were you all
Yet indeed like humans you shall die
and like one of the princes, fall
Psalms 82:6-7
"I had thought..."?
Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time
The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits
So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply
Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )
Dear Rabbi Knohl,
Shalom and trust that you are well. I listened to your information that the Pharisees were not at the trial. In as much as it sounds great, there are some passages which seem to suggest contrary:
1. Acts 3:14 “But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you”. This was Apostle Peter addressing the multitude that gathered at Pentecost. Why did not the Pharisees object by saying, but we were not there?
2. Acts 7:52 “Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; *of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers*:” Again, see the guilt and condemnation proclaimed by Stephen before the council….why did not the Pharisees object by saying that they were not involved?
3. Act10:39 “And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; *whom they slew and hanged* on a tree” Again and again, the guilt and condemnation proclaimed by the Apostles that all the religious institution of the day converged to kill the Messiah, Yeshua!
The problem is, is that no mashiach could possibly come today or in the future and prove themselves to be from the tribe of Judah with Davidic blood.
Emperor Hadrian of Rome destroyed all records… the same thing goes for the priesthood. It’s unreliable and unprovable, along with intermarriage between tribes, no one can say for sure they’re even from the tribe of Judah.
INFJ with developed Fe
Jesus Christ can never be found/seen by conducting search /research by any clever/intellectual researcher in the darkness of any one's heart but can find out by an innocent heart, in the world. That is why, after resurrection, he said to those people that " U refused/pushed away me being the resource of water of life(Heavenly Word of God/Goodnews) and u again digging out waterless Wells " for the generations.
Disappointed politics came into this
The final ruling of HaShem is that Israel is to enthrone a King that HaShem chooses. All the rhetoric prior one way or another is not relevant. That is the law. And Israel is in violation of this law right now.
The spirituality is lost in this conversation. As a matter of fact, the jews trials to explanations of the scriptures are of material perspective and that manner distort all the spiritual meanings and comprehension of the holy verses.