One of the best scenes in television history. The use of Latin was brilliant. The most powerful man on Earth having the audacity and yelling at his Lord takes some balls to write. Sorkin is brilliant.
The slight quiver in Bartlett's voice when he says Josh was his son....Martin Sheen was peerless in this scene. Along with James Gandolfini and Edie Falco in 'Whitecaps" on The Sopranos, it's the best acting that has ever been done on television, and it't not even close.
From anything I know, this was an extremely difficult scene for Martin Sheen to do. He is a devout Catholic. This scene was painful for him. But, nonetheless, he pulled off one of the best scenes in TV history. And one other thing - Holy Crap is this great !!!
Hence the symbolism of the cigarette, as when his father as Headmaster was angry about someone having left one on the floor of the school chapel, and in effect ordered Jed to tell his fellow students that this was forbidden.
"What was Josh Liman, a warning shot? That was my son. What did I ever do to Yours except praise His Glory and praise His Name?" It's interesting, but it doesn't fit.
ChristInMeA2Z Bartlet thinks of Josh and Sam as sons. He has none of his own (sons that is; he has three daughters all of whom he loves deeply) and his staff become an extended family to him. Leo is his wise older brother/surrogate father, Toby is like a sibling to him and Sam and Josh are the sons he would like to have had. He's equally fond of the women. CJ is both his big sister and in later seasons his conscience. Mrs Landingham was like a mother or a much loved Aunt to him and her loss was a huge blow. In that context I think his comment made perfect sense, especially when you consider how deeply religious he was and how devoted to his Catholic faith. The fact he chews out God in perfect Latin just adds to the power of the scene. The fact Martin Sheen doesn't speak Latin and still managed to pull that off just showed what a great actor he is.
The most accurate representation of a crisis of faith I have ever seen on television. No matter how devout you are there will always be a moment in your life where you will rage at God for something, and that's okay, because you are human. We are filled with doubt, sometimes you overcome it, sometimes you don't and this scene is so perfectly on point in it's depiction of that grief, of the internal conflict, of the pain of not understanding why something has happened in your life that it has me in tears every single time.
ArtemisScribe Perfectly put. I'm just coming out of the official end of a seven year relationship and right now feeling really uncertain about the path I'm on and where things are going. I've always been a bit Bartlet like with day to day things, when something does or doesn't pan out, I like to move on and think "What's Next". Well just recently at a new job I met a girl in my department that I really seemed to click with. She's got a great sense of humor, very smart, easy to be around, and also very good looking, pretty much the exact type of girl I'm attracted to in appearance. Well I finally worked up the courage to add her on Facebook to try and chat outside of the office, and lo behold she's had a boyfriend for nearly five years. I immediately thought to paraphrasing this clip "You put a perfect girl I could be instantly attracted to and then she's with someone...was that supposed to be funny?" So instead of What's Next, I'm having to have faith there will be a next. And trying to focus on other things in the meantime both as a distraction and as a means of improving myself and my self-confidence.
Thanks for the reply mate, I appreciate it. It just sucks to meet someone that you really click with, and seems like she's what you're looking for, only to find out you never even had a chance to begin with as she's in a long term relationship. Seems like a cruel joke like Mrs. Landingham getting hit in her first new car. I'm putting it behind me though, slowly trying to trust that there is a plan in place and I just need to keep moving forward to get there, focusing on the positive and doing what I can to better myself. Cheers mate.
Phelan it has to do with it seemingly having God having it in for him,what with Josh almost being killed by the sniper,Mrs Landingham's death,Bartlett is basically saying "u know what God?u want to keep fucking with me like this?fine,torture the next guy in line and leave me the hell alone"
I remember coming home from work and my parents raving about this scene. They replayed it for me off of In Demand and made me watch it. I think Martin Sheen and the producers deserved an Emmy for it because the acting, direction and editing were spot on.
Just watched this scene on Netflix after beginning to watch TWW just a few weeks ago. I can't believe I didn't get into this show earlier - Martin Sheen is incredible.
I think what's so powerful about this scene is that it's what so many people have felt when senseless, heart breaking tragedy strikes. Jed's grief comes for so many people he feels he's let down- Josh from being shot, all the people he couldn't save on those ships but were still his responsibility, and in some ways we can see he thinks Mrs. Landingham's death is god's punishment for him. Innocent people who suffered, people who were helping Jed try to change the world for the better.
"You get Hoines" isn't a statement that demands a response, its his way of saying "I' give up". Hes lost his faith and he disrespects God because he feels that he is being punished despite his efforts to lead a good and ethical life.
Well said! 👏 And you know, your point runs along the same one that was made in the episode with the Christian missionaries who tried to get out of China: Faith and prayer alone aren't enough; Good works and other activities, that's what makes the biggest difference in my pov.
Also Jed has been shown to be a character who can't stand to feel helpless- who continuously pushes himself to deny all limitations anyone has ever set on him. He became president even when he had MS, and never once faltered in his path. Jed is a force of nature, the sort of personality it takes to become president... but even he can't control all the events that happen around him, like Mrs. Landingham being hit by a drunk driver.
The greatest hour ever done on Broadcast TV. From the beginning of the MS arc up until "Brothers in Arms" by Dire Straits. The best this person has ever seen. I am not worthy--to quote Saturday Night Live.
Some fine acting here...... This scene displayed the feelings that the faithful sometimes feel with God, and Martin Sheen puts them across with power and real emotion
1212sweetgirl Then lets be thankful you are not the Lord. As you said, there were those in the Bible who questioned God before. What is the difference between this character and those people? He was faithful, kept the Lords commandments, lived a good life, worshiped God and the Lord Jesus. Cursing everything he did and everything he loved would hardly seem like a good way to restore faith to someone who is loosing it.
Yes, God is merciful, understanding and patient. You are not. In the end, God will be the ultimate Judge of us all, not you. Please stop trying to take His place in that.
gscam0001 You noticed 1212 doing that as well I see. Watch out, we're going to burn in hell for calling her out on her own blasphemous comments. Be Well and yes this was a powerful and emotional scene.
Yes, I did notice it. It's fundies like 1212 that give people of faith a bad name and someone has to call them out. As for burning in hell for calling out her blasphemous comments-- I'll trust in the Almighty to be a better judge than 1212. Peace to you and yours.
Firstly, I too am a believer, and second, you think Christ will let someone hate-filled sit in judgement with him? You are not fulfilling the commandment left to us by our Lord Jesus Christ to "Love thy neighbor as you wish to be loved." Your "love" is to only see the bad, apparently, so when your time comes, only the badness in you will be seen. I am sorry for the sins in my life, I admit it, but can you admit that you spit venom at people and ignore the Prime Commandment as issued as our Lord Jesus himself?
the point of that speech is this a good woman who never harmed anyone who lost two sons who were medics not soldiers in vietnam was killed by a drunk driver who of course survived with no injuries after buying her first New car ever. The seeming of god wanting the devils choice of the Vice President to be President to feel those you love punished for something you have done. Punish me not the ones I care for. To punish those around me instead of the more direct course is a cowards approach to the problem he was calling god a coward for hurting those around him instead of striking him down instead and I agree
Very powerful moment. Very powerful moment indeed. Can't help but think of the parents of a good friend of mine. They raised three children, helped everyone who needed it and had a very strong faith in God. Despite all of this, they lose their son, himself a good man, in a car accident. Didn't make sense then, still doesn't.
1212sweetgirl Which god? The Christian god? The Jewish god? The Islamic god? What about the gods of the Native Americans? Or the religions that predate Christianity? How can Christians thump their Bibles and claim their god is the one, true god?
***** Erm there is one, true God, He is the God of the Jews, He is the God of the Mormons, He is the God of the Native Americans. He is known as Allah to the Muslims, and, although he has many names He is the same God that Moses prayed to, the same God that tested Abraham, and all the other gods that people worship. Oh, and you shot yourself down with the third and sixth questions.
Anthony Turtle Yet he was thought up by humans, as a way to explain what they didn't understand about how the planet works. Drought? God(s) is/are displeased. Flood? God(s) is/are angry. Plentiful harvest? God(s) is/are pleased. Victory in war? God(s) favor your group over that other 'false god' group. There is zero evidence that he actually exists. And I "shot myself down" because you say so? Riiiiight. But you cannot give an answer beyond a reasonable doubt.... Claims=/=proof.
When this was first broadcast, I wonder why the funeral wasn't in New Hampshire. But later in the series it was revealed that she was buried next to her husband at Arlington National Cemetery (he was a World War II vet).
+Ken Henderson - thank you for that. Quite early on, I thought the episode when Josh struggles to deal with being given the NSA card and chilli is made for Zoe, The President talks with Josh and Leo about the wonderful women, Mandy against Toby, like a 60s movie star CJ, then mentions he doesn't know why Mrs Landingham would care about doing for this country and mentions the two sons she lost in Vietnam and how she's never missed a day of work. It was perfect to set up his regard for women when testimony ripped at his wife ("the things we do to women"). I was however sure I'd heard him say she lost 3 sons or family to War. So a passing comment may well have been that she lost 3 members of her family to War or maybe he says 2 wars and that narrows down to the sons making it 3 after In Excelsis Deo when talking to Charlie we learn they were twins. TRIVIAL OBSERVATION: Throughout that scene with Charlie, she has a toy penguin on her desk wearing a gold jacket. That identical toy is later used in FRIENDS as Hugsy, Joey's sleep bear that Rachel puts in Emma's crib. Wanting it back he buys another for Emma and Rachel gives her both - twin Hugsy penguins.
Yes, the being punching me repeatedly, torturing my friends, family, neighbors, and countless others, inflicting untold suffering for no apparent reason on individuals of all kinds, is really my best friend because he could be hurting me and everyone else more and doesn't. With friends like God, who needs enemies?
Martin Sheen is amazing. And... this scene is human. That's what I love. I can understand why people turn away from religion. Sometimes.... there are no answers.
What I love about this is that while he's listing his accomplishments the last one to be named, and thus in his estimation the greatest, is the raising of his children. Family before all. And IMO, before "God."
My rant against god was when my mother was dying of cancer at St. Joseph's in Burbank, CA. I saw a large crucifix at the end of the hall and thought to myself, "you had a bad week. My mother has been in agony for months and I'm supposed to be impressed by you, grateful to you, praise you? Never." I became an atheist shorty after that. I could no longer be angry with god for not existing and it was time to forgive him and let him go.
Missy Holland She had hospice care, but the cancer spread to her brain and she became psychotic and aggressive. She died in restraints, screaming to a non-existent co-worker for a memo. I knew her death would be bad, but it was so much worse than I imagined it could be. Being flogged and spending three days on the cross would have been a mercy. By the way, the folks at St. Joe's were wonderful. It wasn't them, it was just the way things went.
Such are peoples personal relationships with a God. Mrs Landingham talked numbers and social issues, if only men and women had more inspiration like her.
this is why I love Martin Sheen as an actor, who else makes you feel like its very very bad to get angry with god, not just that but makes you believe his anger when you look unto his face
For me it works better without the Latin being subtitled into English. I've seen the clip with and without. Without, it gives the mood a little curiosity and doesn't distract the viewer from the overwhelming power of the scene.
westriding100 I agree, and I'm glad that's what they went with in the actual airing. Though I appreciate this clip so that I can know what he was actually saying.
We wouldn't of known what he was saying, even though the language itself sounded unique, I'm glad there were subtitles and I strongly don't believe any justice was left out
I've viewed the scene many times without the subtitles. Somehow, if he had done it all in English the first go 'round, I think it would've been even more powerful. But doing it in Latin, makes it more artful, keeping in line with masterful handling of the episode as a whole.
"Suffering is not always bad." ---So if I were a believer and I suffered because of god, even though I have been trying to do right by him, why should I continue to believe??? Simply put, why should I keep someone as a friend, if said friend treats me like shit??? I had a friend in high school who stole form me. Your logic suggests that I should keep him as a friend, even though he betrayed me. Try again.
If there is a god, in the end this must be the destiny of the faith of the masses, one soul at a time. They must become angry. They must rage. They must tell god where he can get off at. They must turn their backs on god. For only in so doing, can they grow beyond the need for god.
If there is an all powerful, all knowing god...he/it/she is obviously a psychopath. Raging against such an apathetic sicko is useless. He/it/she doesn't give a fuck.
nice job on the latin (i took 5 years of it in high school and college, wanted to see how well you did). With exception to some of the conjugations being slightly off (punishment instead of punishments), not bad! loved the video!
It depends - if you think freedom and human rights are a good thing, we've made massive progress, though there is still a long road ahead. But the days are gone when basically every person blithely accepted slavery, thought stoning people to death for accusations of minor offenses was righteous, and wars, though we still have them, are not seen as glorious adventures, and most of the world now accepts that no one person has a divine right to absolute power over others. That's progress.
This is the best example I have come across, with regards to the absolute madness that is faith. To believe in a god who would allow such a thing to happen to someone, who did so much good for the world. The scenario begs the questions, "Why bother? Why should I be a good person and believe in a god, when that god allows such evil things to happen to good people?"
NBC should really look seriously at bringing this show back. If shows like the X-Files and Twin Peaks can come back and shows like Law and Order and CSI can get decades long runs than a show this good and relevant should be given the time of day.
In the plot of the episode, he's considering not running again. Hoines is his vp and would run if he decided not to. He's saying God gets Hoines instead of him as president because of this.
it's the perfect conclusion to the rant. He's telling God all the things he done for good in God's name and in general, and it's not good enough to get Bartlett out of God's doghouse. He spent the past few episodes debating whether he'd run for a second term. At the end of this rant he is telling us that he's not running and he's telling God, "Well, I did good for you and that wasn't enough. Now you get Hoynes." and they all thought very little of Hoynes; they may have liked him but they thought he was a career politician who would put poll numbers above anything else. It's a perfect conclusion to that scene.
I know this is the point of this clip, but I love how Bartlet is able to relate to God in such a way that he can openly have a conversation and make deals.
airdriver Actually most Catholics in those days did NOT understand Latin. They had prayer books with the Latin and it heir own language side beside so that they could follow the services. OTOG, it was not uncommon for some people to learn Latin at school, especially the academically inclined.
Bernard Ashton airdriver yeah not everyone learned latin. though bartlett went to a demanding catholic school, was academically and linguistically gifted, and don't forget originally was gonna study to be a priest
+airdriver Martin Sheen asked two things of Aaron Sorkin when he was cast to play the President: First, that Bartlett be a Notre Dame graduate, because he always wished he was, and second, that the character be a Latin scholar. One of, if not my favorite episode of TWW, and the first and only acting role for TWW writer/producer and future MSNBC host Lawrence O'Donnell, as young Jed's father. I so wanted to punch him out by the end of the show, the mark of a successful portrayal.
Can someone explain to me the "You get Hoynes" at the end. I am a loyal viewer I know he is VP was front runner in the primaries. What is the significance in it?
+Jacob Graham if you havent already figured it out by yourself at this point (its been 3 months since you commented), he said "You get Hoynes" because he decided he no longer wanted to take up God's cause and lead the nation. At this point, Bartlet had decided hes not running for re-election and God is stuck with Hoynes for his messenger
goffmi.....You miss the point-he is angry that GOD took his friend and has given him so much pain with the other issues. When my brother died in Vietnam my mother did something similar;she is a devout woman and her son came home in a box! You can bet people over time have asked those very same questions he did and expressed those sentiments.....to you it is annoying-to him it is expressing pain and wondering WHY. And it is said GOD does hear in our joy and our PAIN-so yeah he just might.
There was a time when slavery was open and accepted pretty much everywhere. Now, even where it is tolerated, it is more often hidden and at least technically illegal. If you think attitudes about war haven't changed, you should read some Hemingway about the Spanish Revolution, Again, there are still some who think it is glamorous, but the overall attitude is that it is bloody, brutal and awful. We are far from perfect, it doesn't mean we're not a lot better.
Well, if you want to think the world is a crappy place, that's your right. As someone who loves to study history though, I find little evidence that we are not making incremental improvements, and it seems every generation has a great number of people convinced that theirs is a terrible time. I suspect this is because there are always lots of bad things happening, plus, people fear change, and today with 24 hr media bringing us every bit of bad news from around the world it can seem worse.
Granted I dont condone cussing at God or going on a rant, I will say that this was an awesome scene. The fierce anger he had. Yes, we all get angry with God because yes, things in life are so complicated and we just don't understand why God does things. This was genuine even though it was fictional. The Latin even made it more powerful. Because of watching this, I did take up latin. Great language to learn.
One of the greatest scenes in television drama. Also getting a kick out of the cmments by this 1212sweetgirl. Never have I seen a username so opposite from a person's attitude.
I'm an atheist so it's not that I don't agree with the sentiment to a point, but in the show Bartlett never loses his faith. he remains a devout Catholic, despite his anger in this scene. To me, Bartlett is the perfect example of the good that faith can have in the world. he doesn't force his beliefs on anyone, but his religion helps guide him through ethical and moral crises. Believing in any religion is perfectly fine providing it is never forced upon others.
How do people not get this line? He had just numbered his many good deeds, yet, in his eyes, he was still being punished. Bartlet is saying he has done well in the Lord's service and that he is the best man to continue doing so, but since God continues to punish him, he is going to step down, and let a lesser man take over...Hoynes.
All I hear is grief talking. Anger and rage beating his chest somehow thinking through his own power and might he made any of it happen.. ITS the crux of human pride and disfigurement of self motivated power. I think he is funny that he thinks he can bargain with God and buy himself out of the doghouse. I think he might want to go look up therapeutic moralistic deism.
The bit that always gets me is "What was Josh Lyman, a warning shot? That was MY SON."
One of the best scenes in television history. The use of Latin was brilliant. The most powerful man on Earth having the audacity and yelling at his Lord takes some balls to write. Sorkin is brilliant.
The way his voice quivers when he says "That was my son..." gets me every time.
Amazing scene. Just Amazing.
This was the only time the Washington National Cathedral allowed a film/TV crew to shoot inside - other than for RL funeral/memorial services.
The slight quiver in Bartlett's voice when he says Josh was his son....Martin Sheen was peerless in this scene. Along with James Gandolfini and Edie Falco in 'Whitecaps" on The Sopranos, it's the best acting that has ever been done on television, and it't not even close.
From anything I know, this was an extremely difficult scene for Martin Sheen to do. He is a devout Catholic. This scene was painful for him. But, nonetheless, he pulled off one of the best scenes in TV history. And one other thing - Holy Crap is this great !!!
Aaron Sorkin said that this rant could also be directed at Bartlet's father as well. Its interesting hearing this rant in that context.
Hence the symbolism of the cigarette, as when his father as Headmaster was angry about someone having left one on the floor of the school chapel, and in effect ordered Jed to tell his fellow students that this was forbidden.
I don't think it is meant to be interpreted that way. He says God specifically. Martin Sheen certainly knows how to deliver a speech though.
"What was Josh Liman, a warning shot? That was my son. What did I ever do to Yours except praise His Glory and praise His Name?" It's interesting, but it doesn't fit.
ChristInMeA2Z Bartlet thinks of Josh and Sam as sons. He has none of his own (sons that is; he has three daughters all of whom he loves deeply) and his staff become an extended family to him. Leo is his wise older brother/surrogate father, Toby is like a sibling to him and Sam and Josh are the sons he would like to have had. He's equally fond of the women. CJ is both his big sister and in later seasons his conscience. Mrs Landingham was like a mother or a much loved Aunt to him and her loss was a huge blow. In that context I think his comment made perfect sense, especially when you consider how deeply religious he was and how devoted to his Catholic faith. The fact he chews out God in perfect Latin just adds to the power of the scene. The fact Martin Sheen doesn't speak Latin and still managed to pull that off just showed what a great actor he is.
MrPeterpiper1969 Why are you mentioning me in this comment?
I know it's in Latin but I always get chills whenever Sheen gets to 'I was your servant on this Earth' part of the monologue.
The most accurate representation of a crisis of faith I have ever seen on television. No matter how devout you are there will always be a moment in your life where you will rage at God for something, and that's okay, because you are human. We are filled with doubt, sometimes you overcome it, sometimes you don't and this scene is so perfectly on point in it's depiction of that grief, of the internal conflict, of the pain of not understanding why something has happened in your life that it has me in tears every single time.
ArtemisScribe Perfectly put. I'm just coming out of the official end of a seven year relationship and right now feeling really uncertain about the path I'm on and where things are going. I've always been a bit Bartlet like with day to day things, when something does or doesn't pan out, I like to move on and think "What's Next". Well just recently at a new job I met a girl in my department that I really seemed to click with. She's got a great sense of humor, very smart, easy to be around, and also very good looking, pretty much the exact type of girl I'm attracted to in appearance. Well I finally worked up the courage to add her on Facebook to try and chat outside of the office, and lo behold she's had a boyfriend for nearly five years. I immediately thought to paraphrasing this clip "You put a perfect girl I could be instantly attracted to and then she's with someone...was that supposed to be funny?" So instead of What's Next, I'm having to have faith there will be a next. And trying to focus on other things in the meantime both as a distraction and as a means of improving myself and my self-confidence.
yep, you're having one of those days/weeks.
Hang in there mate, things will get better
Thanks for the reply mate, I appreciate it. It just sucks to meet someone that you really click with, and seems like she's what you're looking for, only to find out you never even had a chance to begin with as she's in a long term relationship. Seems like a cruel joke like Mrs. Landingham getting hit in her first new car. I'm putting it behind me though, slowly trying to trust that there is a plan in place and I just need to keep moving forward to get there, focusing on the positive and doing what I can to better myself. Cheers mate.
+ArtemisScribe So... what's your conclusion
boonexy
my conclusion to what exactly?
Truly the single best scene in the series, if not the canon of American network television. Kills me every single time. "You get Hoynes."
+AJ Klopotoski i couldnt agree with u more,im even writing to Martin Sheen thanking him for this particular scene
Phelan basically,what the translation is,is "to hell with u,and to hell with your family"
Phelan that last remark has to do with his no longer having the desire to run for president,after Mrs Landingham's death
Phelan it has to do with it seemingly having God having it in for him,what with Josh almost being killed by the sniper,Mrs Landingham's death,Bartlett is basically saying "u know what God?u want to keep fucking with me like this?fine,torture the next guy in line and leave me the hell alone"
I remember coming home from work and my parents raving about this scene. They replayed it for me off of In Demand and made me watch it. I think Martin Sheen and the producers deserved an Emmy for it because the acting, direction and editing were spot on.
Just watched this scene on Netflix after beginning to watch TWW just a few weeks ago. I can't believe I didn't get into this show earlier - Martin Sheen is incredible.
I think what's so powerful about this scene is that it's what so many people have felt when senseless, heart breaking tragedy strikes. Jed's grief comes for so many people he feels he's let down- Josh from being shot, all the people he couldn't save on those ships but were still his responsibility, and in some ways we can see he thinks Mrs. Landingham's death is god's punishment for him. Innocent people who suffered, people who were helping Jed try to change the world for the better.
I like the end.."You get Hoynes," the amoral, political operative that had only one agenda..win.
It is this scene that IMO makes Two Cathedrals the best episode of the entire series... and there were some REAL good ones... Such a powerful scene
when he lights that cigarette....damn
"You get Hoines" isn't a statement that demands a response, its his way of saying "I' give up". Hes lost his faith and he disrespects God because he feels that he is being punished despite his efforts to lead a good and ethical life.
Those who never doubted and never got mad, never truly believed.
How convenient
Well said! 👏
And you know, your point runs along the same one that was made in the episode with the Christian missionaries who tried to get out of China: Faith and prayer alone aren't enough; Good works and other activities, that's what makes the biggest difference in my pov.
this is Sheen at his best.The day of my mom's funeral I got home and a e network was showing this
Also Jed has been shown to be a character who can't stand to feel helpless- who continuously pushes himself to deny all limitations anyone has ever set on him. He became president even when he had MS, and never once faltered in his path. Jed is a force of nature, the sort of personality it takes to become president... but even he can't control all the events that happen around him, like Mrs. Landingham being hit by a drunk driver.
Finally, an American President that I can truly support! Too bad, that he's fictional...
+skipchat - That's why I stopped voting in 1968.
+Theo Lamp you should have voted for nixon
The greatest hour ever done on Broadcast TV. From the beginning of the MS arc up until "Brothers in Arms" by Dire Straits. The best this person has ever seen. I am not worthy--to quote Saturday Night Live.
THANK YOU, so much, for posting this with the translation. I've been looking for just this for years.
Some fine acting here...... This scene displayed the feelings that the faithful sometimes feel with God, and Martin Sheen puts them across with power and real emotion
1212sweetgirl Then lets be thankful you are not the Lord. As you said, there were those in the Bible who questioned God before. What is the difference between this character and those people? He was faithful, kept the Lords commandments, lived a good life, worshiped God and the Lord Jesus. Cursing everything he did and everything he loved would hardly seem like a good way to restore faith to someone who is loosing it.
Yes, God is merciful, understanding and patient. You are not. In the end, God will be the ultimate Judge of us all, not you. Please stop trying to take His place in that.
gscam0001 You noticed 1212 doing that as well I see. Watch out, we're going to burn in hell for calling her out on her own blasphemous comments.
Be Well and yes this was a powerful and emotional scene.
Yes, I did notice it. It's fundies like 1212 that give people of faith a bad name and someone has to call them out. As for burning in hell for calling out her blasphemous comments-- I'll trust in the Almighty to be a better judge than 1212.
Peace to you and yours.
Firstly, I too am a believer, and second, you think Christ will let someone hate-filled sit in judgement with him? You are not fulfilling the commandment left to us by our Lord Jesus Christ to "Love thy neighbor as you wish to be loved." Your "love" is to only see the bad, apparently, so when your time comes, only the badness in you will be seen.
I am sorry for the sins in my life, I admit it, but can you admit that you spit venom at people and ignore the Prime Commandment as issued as our Lord Jesus himself?
An amazing speech in a series full of amazing speeches. Martin Sheen is just plain amazing.
the point of that speech is this a good woman who never harmed anyone who lost two sons who were medics not soldiers in vietnam was killed by a drunk driver who of course survived with no injuries after buying her first New car ever. The seeming of god wanting the devils choice of the Vice President to be President to feel those you love punished for something you have done. Punish me not the ones I care for. To punish those around me instead of the more direct course is a cowards approach to the problem he was calling god a coward for hurting those around him instead of striking him down instead and I agree
Very powerful moment. Very powerful moment indeed. Can't help but think of the parents of a good friend of mine. They raised three children, helped everyone who needed it and had a very strong faith in God. Despite all of this, they lose their son, himself a good man, in a car accident. Didn't make sense then, still doesn't.
1212sweetgirl oh shut up you bible thumper
Only "random" can make sense. No religious spin will satisfy.
1212sweetgirl
Which god? The Christian god? The Jewish god? The Islamic god? What about the gods of the Native Americans? Or the religions that predate Christianity? How can Christians thump their Bibles and claim their god is the one, true god?
***** Erm there is one, true God, He is the God of the Jews, He is the God of the Mormons, He is the God of the Native Americans. He is known as Allah to the Muslims, and, although he has many names He is the same God that Moses prayed to, the same God that tested Abraham, and all the other gods that people worship. Oh, and you shot yourself down with the third and sixth questions.
Anthony Turtle
Yet he was thought up by humans, as a way to explain what they didn't understand about how the planet works. Drought? God(s) is/are displeased. Flood? God(s) is/are angry. Plentiful harvest? God(s) is/are pleased. Victory in war? God(s) favor your group over that other 'false god' group. There is zero evidence that he actually exists.
And I "shot myself down" because you say so? Riiiiight. But you cannot give an answer beyond a reasonable doubt....
Claims=/=proof.
I got chills watching this before I knew what he said. Now knowing the translation this is by a wide margin why favorite scene from any TV show
Thank you. Didn't think it could be more powerful. Now that I've seen the translation, I think they should have included it in the original episode.
so perfectly Jed Bartlett
RANT is hardly the right term. Amazing speech is more like it.
Possibly the best scene in the entirety of West Wing.
1212sweetgirl Peter Griffin voice: shut up meg!
When this was first broadcast, I wonder why the funeral wasn't in New Hampshire. But later in the series it was revealed that she was buried next to her husband at Arlington National Cemetery (he was a World War II vet).
Her sons should have been next to her as well, as Vietnam casualties.
+Ken Henderson - thank you for that. Quite early on, I thought the episode when Josh struggles to deal with being given the NSA card and chilli is made for Zoe, The President talks with Josh and Leo about the wonderful women, Mandy against Toby, like a 60s movie star CJ, then mentions he doesn't know why Mrs Landingham would care about doing for this country and mentions the two sons she lost in Vietnam and how she's never missed a day of work. It was perfect to set up his regard for women when testimony ripped at his wife ("the things we do to women"). I was however sure I'd heard him say she lost 3 sons or family to War. So a passing comment may well have been that she lost 3 members of her family to War or maybe he says 2 wars and that narrows down to the sons making it 3 after In Excelsis Deo when talking to Charlie we learn they were twins. TRIVIAL OBSERVATION: Throughout that scene with Charlie, she has a toy penguin on her desk wearing a gold jacket. That identical toy is later used in FRIENDS as Hugsy, Joey's sleep bear that Rachel puts in Emma's crib. Wanting it back he buys another for Emma and Rachel gives her both - twin Hugsy penguins.
Yes, the being punching me repeatedly, torturing my friends, family, neighbors, and countless others, inflicting untold suffering for no apparent reason on individuals of all kinds, is really my best friend because he could be hurting me and everyone else more and doesn't. With friends like God, who needs enemies?
I still find myself watching this scene years later!
I wish I could vote for this guy instead what we have right now.
Magnificent, wonderful writing and acting, this scene and the show as a whole are utterly incredible TV.
Best TV scene ever
I always get the chills every time i see this scene
One of my favorite scenes of the series.
Stunning, well done.
Always wondered what he said, thanks for doing that.
Martin Sheen is amazing. And... this scene is human. That's what I love. I can understand why people turn away from religion. Sometimes.... there are no answers.
Powerful scene!
What I love about this is that while he's listing his accomplishments the last one to be named, and thus in his estimation the greatest, is the raising of his children. Family before all. And IMO, before "God."
My rant against god was when my mother was dying of cancer at St. Joseph's in Burbank, CA.
I saw a large crucifix at the end of the hall and thought to myself, "you had a bad week. My mother has been in agony for months and I'm supposed to be impressed by you, grateful to you, praise you? Never."
I became an atheist shorty after that. I could no longer be angry with god for not existing and it was time to forgive him and let him go.
+Waltham1892 I'm so sorry for you and your Mom. Couldn't you get her into hospice care? They're fantastic at palliative relief.
Missy Holland She had hospice care, but the cancer spread to her brain and she became psychotic and aggressive.
She died in restraints, screaming to a non-existent co-worker for a memo.
I knew her death would be bad, but it was so much worse than I imagined it could be.
Being flogged and spending three days on the cross would have been a mercy.
By the way, the folks at St. Joe's were wonderful. It wasn't them, it was just the way things went.
How horrible for you both. Terribly sorry.
Missy Holland Thank you, you are most kind.
that last bit made no sense
I have goosebumps the size of mountains
Such are peoples personal relationships with a God. Mrs Landingham talked numbers and social issues, if only men and women had more inspiration like her.
I wonder how Martin Sheen, as a devout Catholic, prepared for this scene.
We've all been there...or we'll be there on day.
It's also in the all time greatest episode of television ever made.
this is in the pantheon of all time great West Wing scenes.
Nothing could ever trump this show !
Brothers In Arms
Brilliant, thank you
This is probably one if not my favorite scene in the entire series
this is why I love Martin Sheen as an actor, who else makes you feel like its very very bad to get angry with god, not just that but makes you believe his anger when you look unto his face
IMO, only three actors can deliver this level of emotion:
1. Martin Sheen
2. Will Smith
3. Morgan Freeman
One of the best sence ever
Wow; this is great writing; that was what they call a cri de coeur
Martin Sheen looks very young here
For me it works better without the Latin being subtitled into English. I've seen the clip with and without. Without, it gives the mood a little curiosity and doesn't distract the viewer from the overwhelming power of the scene.
westriding100 I agree, and I'm glad that's what they went with in the actual airing. Though I appreciate this clip so that I can know what he was actually saying.
Agreed.
We wouldn't of known what he was saying, even though the language itself sounded unique, I'm glad there were subtitles and I strongly don't believe any justice was left out
I've viewed the scene many times without the subtitles. Somehow, if he had done it all in English the first go 'round, I think it would've been even more powerful. But doing it in Latin, makes it more artful, keeping in line with masterful handling of the episode as a whole.
"Suffering is not always bad."
---So if I were a believer and I suffered because of god, even though I have been trying to do right by him, why should I continue to believe???
Simply put, why should I keep someone as a friend, if said friend treats me like shit???
I had a friend in high school who stole form me. Your logic suggests that I should keep him as a friend, even though he betrayed me.
Try again.
Really nice...
So say we all !.
Thank you :)
House of Cards did the same kind of rant with Frank Underwood, only in a more perverted way
If there is a god, in the end this must be the destiny of the faith of the masses, one soul at a time. They must become angry. They must rage. They must tell god where he can get off at. They must turn their backs on god.
For only in so doing, can they grow beyond the need for god.
The most beautiful thing I have ever read on CZcams. Thank you.
The most beautiful thing I have ever read on CZcams. Thank you.
Thank you!
If there is an all powerful, all knowing god...he/it/she is obviously a psychopath. Raging against such an apathetic sicko is useless. He/it/she doesn't give a fuck.
kay jay Worshipping said psychopath is equally useless.
When I find a god, I'll make a note of that.
nice job on the latin (i took 5 years of it in high school and college, wanted to see how well you did). With exception to some of the conjugations being slightly off (punishment instead of punishments), not bad!
loved the video!
He probably had more than a dozen writers to be fair, and he would have rehearsed a lot.He also did a hell of a lot less talking than Jed
It depends - if you think freedom and human rights are a good thing, we've made massive progress, though there is still a long road ahead. But the days are gone when basically every person blithely accepted slavery, thought stoning people to death for accusations of minor offenses was righteous, and wars, though we still have them, are not seen as glorious adventures, and most of the world now accepts that no one person has a divine right to absolute power over others. That's progress.
I got hella feelings about him calling josh his son like BYE
This is the best example I have come across, with regards to the absolute madness that is faith.
To believe in a god who would allow such a thing to happen to someone, who did so much good for the world. The scenario begs the questions, "Why bother? Why should I be a good person and believe in a god, when that god allows such evil things to happen to good people?"
Arguably 'God' got him back with the MS... :(
God has tough skin, he can handle it.
To be fair, Bush didn't have a dozen staff writers and forty-seven takes to get it right, either.
NBC should really look seriously at bringing this show back. If shows like the X-Files and Twin Peaks can come back and shows like Law and Order and CSI can get decades long runs than a show this good and relevant should be given the time of day.
BUSH couldn't get it right with a brain transplant!
I've never quite understood "you get Hoynes" at the end of this clip.
It didn't seem to fit the rant to me.
In the plot of the episode, he's considering not running again. Hoines is his vp and would run if he decided not to. He's saying God gets Hoines instead of him as president because of this.
I think he was referring to the fact that he wasn't going to run for a 2nd term So go get hoynes for president ?
I think
it's the perfect conclusion to the rant. He's telling God all the things he done for good in God's name and in general, and it's not good enough to get Bartlett out of God's doghouse. He spent the past few episodes debating whether he'd run for a second term. At the end of this rant he is telling us that he's not running and he's telling God, "Well, I did good for you and that wasn't enough. Now you get Hoynes." and they all thought very little of Hoynes; they may have liked him but they thought he was a career politician who would put poll numbers above anything else. It's a perfect conclusion to that scene.
ArtMonkforHallofFame yep
AtaargfAllah!
I know this is the point of this clip, but I love how Bartlet is able to relate to God in such a way that he can openly have a conversation and make deals.
No, he's venting, as many of us do in a time of stress, crisis and personal introspection, including, if you're honest, probably, you.
was this a quote from the bible?
No! Bartlett was raised Catholic back when all Catholics had to learn Latin because all of the Masses were performed in Latin.
airdriver Actually most Catholics in those days did NOT understand Latin. They had prayer books with the Latin and it heir own language side beside so that they could follow the services.
OTOG, it was not uncommon for some people to learn Latin at school, especially the academically inclined.
Bernard Ashton airdriver yeah not everyone learned latin. though bartlett went to a demanding catholic school, was academically and linguistically gifted, and don't forget originally was gonna study to be a priest
+airdriver Martin Sheen asked two things of Aaron Sorkin when he was cast to play the President: First, that Bartlett be a Notre Dame graduate, because he always wished he was, and second, that the character be a Latin scholar. One of, if not my favorite episode of TWW, and the first and only acting role for TWW writer/producer and future MSNBC host Lawrence O'Donnell, as young Jed's father. I so wanted to punch him out by the end of the show, the mark of a successful portrayal.
I'm actually a Mets fan, but alright.
I can't imagine Bush getting through that scene in English.
No wonder people love and miss this show,
I can imagine G.W. Bush doing the same scene, and speaking in Latin. :-)
hahah
If there is a god, then this is the message he deserves.
Can someone explain to me the "You get Hoynes" at the end. I am a loyal viewer I know he is VP was front runner in the primaries. What is the significance in it?
+Jacob Graham if you havent already figured it out by yourself at this point (its been 3 months since you commented), he said "You get Hoynes" because he decided he no longer wanted to take up God's cause and lead the nation. At this point, Bartlet had decided hes not running for re-election and God is stuck with Hoynes for his messenger
+Jacob Graham He was expressing that he won't go for a second term.
I think it was referring to the fact he wasn't going to run for a 2nd term
So he meant go get hoynes for president ?
goffmi.....You miss the point-he is angry that GOD took his friend and has given him so much pain with the other issues.
When my brother died in Vietnam my mother did something similar;she is a devout woman and her son came home in a box!
You can bet people over time have asked those very same questions he did and expressed those sentiments.....to you it is annoying-to him it is expressing pain and wondering WHY.
And it is said GOD does hear in our joy and our PAIN-so yeah he just might.
There was a time when slavery was open and accepted pretty much everywhere. Now, even where it is tolerated, it is more often hidden and at least technically illegal. If you think attitudes about war haven't changed, you should read some Hemingway about the Spanish Revolution, Again, there are still some who think it is glamorous, but the overall attitude is that it is bloody, brutal and awful. We are far from perfect, it doesn't mean we're not a lot better.
Well, if you want to think the world is a crappy place, that's your right. As someone who loves to study history though, I find little evidence that we are not making incremental improvements, and it seems every generation has a great number of people convinced that theirs is a terrible time. I suspect this is because there are always lots of bad things happening, plus, people fear change, and today with 24 hr media bringing us every bit of bad news from around the world it can seem worse.
Granted I dont condone cussing at God or going on a rant, I will say that this was an awesome scene. The fierce anger he had. Yes, we all get angry with God because yes, things in life are so complicated and we just don't understand why God does things. This was genuine even though it was fictional. The Latin even made it more powerful. Because of watching this, I did take up latin. Great language to learn.
Whatsamatta? God not big enough to take it?
+Aegis Nova Your insolence is grand
Then you should watch the ending of this episode when Mrs.Landingham comes back to speak to him.
One of the greatest scenes in television drama. Also getting a kick out of the cmments by this 1212sweetgirl. Never have I seen a username so opposite from a person's attitude.
You noticed, too? 😉
Recognising god's impotence is the first step to recognising there is no good reason to believe he even exists.
I'm an atheist so it's not that I don't agree with the sentiment to a point, but in the show Bartlett never loses his faith. he remains a devout Catholic, despite his anger in this scene. To me, Bartlett is the perfect example of the good that faith can have in the world. he doesn't force his beliefs on anyone, but his religion helps guide him through ethical and moral crises. Believing in any religion is perfectly fine providing it is never forced upon others.
I never did quite get the line "you get hoynes"
How do people not get this line? He had just numbered his many good deeds, yet, in his eyes, he was still being punished. Bartlet is saying he has done well in the Lord's service and that he is the best man to continue doing so, but since God continues to punish him, he is going to step down, and let a lesser man take over...Hoynes.
If you'd watch the series you'd know. It's perfectly obvious.
Way too fast. Bartlet on helium.
I liked it better when i didn't know what he was saying.
There is no "God".
Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Obama either.
All I hear is grief talking. Anger and rage beating his chest somehow thinking through his own power and might he made any of it happen.. ITS the crux of human pride and disfigurement of self motivated power. I think he is funny that he thinks he can bargain with God and buy himself out of the doghouse. I think he might want to go look up therapeutic moralistic deism.
Keith Johnston You have to take this within the context of the show. Bartlett is not Frank Underwood.
Keith Johnston Or better yet, shed the fairy tale...
I will take Bartlet's honesty over your cleverness, any day.