Milling Shop Made Angle Plates on the Horizontal Boring Mill - Shop Built Tools
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- čas přidán 29. 03. 2024
- Perfection takes time. But 10 years was a little ridiculous. I made these for one job, and they worked. I planned on getting back to them, but now I have a job for them. So, it is time to finish them.
The Lucas 441B-48 Horizontal Boring Mill makes quick work of these with the 8" Face Mill. Even though I had some difficulties with vibration early on, I found a solution to overcome and get the job done right.
Topper Machine LLC is an entirely manual machine shop located in Spooner, WI. Our videos will highlight some of our shop work.
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An old boy I worked with before you were born had leather bags full of shot to kill harmonic vibration and thick strips of lead flashing to wrap round singing shafts .
In the years I ran a job shop, I kept a lot of sheet lead, used for shower pans in plumbing, and placed under chuck jaws, and mill tables, to kill vibration. I also had boring bars that were drilled nearly all the way through, and filled with led shot, and a grease zerk installed as a plug. Dead as dead can be for vibration.
man thats some old school stuff, like running a third parallel with a bead of oil on it while facing thin plate metal under .125".
You could use poly bags and fill them with sand to help with that harmonic.
I love seeing these old, massive machines work. The precision seems amazing, given their size.
That Lucas mill is a beast of a machine, I love seeing this old iron still being used to this day and producing close tolerance parts.
Every job wants to sing Josh, tuning forks R Us.
Built not bought.
Thanks for sharing
And a new "forever tool" is born. Nice. Thanks for letting us watch, Josh. Cheers.
It's far from new, but it's now finished.... For now....
This was a two-fer. I learn from you and your commenters. There are YEARS of experience commenting. Thank you for the videos.
Boring mill is the best mill. Such a cool machine. You have the best toys, I mean tools, the best "tools"...
It took me a long time to get these tools, and I have plans for some upgrades this year.
One of the things I noticed is that you employ all your senses when doing this kind of work, not just your eyes but also your ears and sense of touch. Others mentioned shot bags to kill vibration, I'll bet sand bags would dampen vibration, too. You should have some sand bags in you lighting kit, anyway. Thanks for another "boring" video.
Hi Josh.... I am fairly new to your channel and one thing I have noticed is that I am seeing things I don't normally see on other channels which is very refreshing. I enjoy your inventive approach to challenging situations..... keeps it interesting to say the least. Keep up the great work...
Russ
Thank you. Every job has its challenges, if you can't overcome them you can't call yourself a machinist. I try to show all of these challenges in all their difficulty.
Mrs Topper sighting at 15:26. Not often a small shop gets to machine on the boring mill at such a high altitude off the table. Cool.
First time I've seen the Mrs. 😊
Nothing to say just an obligatory algorithm boost for the channel. 👍👍
Fun to watch someone who knows what he’s doing, good job
Great video! Saw your name pop up in the comments over on Inheritance, listed you as right up there with them, and Cutting Edge. A great compliment!!!
Another way to cut down on the vibration is to attach a heavy weight at one or more places along the 'spine' of the part. Your big Vevor lifting magnet would be a good candidate, I suspect. The idea is to change the resonant frequency of the top of the part so that the whole thing can't 'ring' sympathetically with the other parts. For small parts I have just used a vise-grip, experimenting with placement to get a spot that stops the resonance.
I have seen guys pull all but one insert making a sort of fly cutter. Takes longer but cuts out the vibration and leaves an amazing surface finish. It’s one of those things sometimes it works great and sometimes it doesn’t.
This never gets old. I just wish I could get back into the shop and put my hands on those handles again. Thanks Josh.
There are no machines in my workshop where I need a long handled broom to clear the chips and have to clamber on the machine to set things up!😁
Nice job, and a beautiful finish!
Very nice job and excellent surface finish. Good that you did the bottom, too. It's too much setup for a compromise. Thanks for another fine video.
They came out beautiful and worked better than expected
After watching both Max Grant's video about machining angle plates and this one, I've learned a lot. I might never have to use this knowledge as a lathe guy, but never say never 😅
There are times you can or would need to use angle plates on a lathe, if you have a carriage with "T" slots. And you can do a lot of milling operations by using a cutter heard in the lathe and the cross slide or carriage to move the work.
The length to width was quite a bit on those. A cheat I have learned from my set I use on my small bore bar is to drill and tap the tops on the back side and tie your two angles together at distance say a foot a part or so. That allows it to operate like a box and makes it much stiffer thus eliminating chatter. 😊
Thanks Brian. Great idea.
Love the rapids on that machine. On mine, you have to shift 4 levers. --Doozer
Hi Josh. Just a thought.
If you had set both angle plates up beside each other. You could’ve used 2 squeeze clamps, one in spreader config to help eliminate chatter. Possibly also use the giant lead solder wire trick wrapped around the end mill arbor to change harmonics.
Plus if you attached some stock in the slots, you could cut both plates together and they’d be indexed.
Thanks for another fine video
EXTREEMLY smart idea to angle the angle to the angle !!
that angle to the dangle is directly proportionate
to the mass of the angle and the heat of the face mill....
or something like that....
Looks real good! Thanks for the looksee.
Never boring at your shop - thanks for sharing
Another great project. Thanks, Josh.
Good morning josh
Thank you Josh!
Love that Lucas boring mill! Great video!
Nice job!!
Nice job Josh…. Enjoy watching your videos!
Interesting video. Vertical boring mill is a thing of beauty.
Really enjoy the Lucas Boring Mill. Such a neat machine!
Another job done right the first time! It was nice to see your line of thinking as you worked through the job. Thanks for sharing!
This was great to watch and I find it interesting to see the machining of large parts
Happy Easter to you and your family.
Just a suggestion,
Add shim stock as needed under the bolted down surface at setup, to halve the stock removal and lessen the spring in the weldment? Cutting down against the table was for sure the way to go.
To change the harmonic resonance try welding the two together and then machine them.
Nice one Josh👍
Very nice.
Video is nicely done too.
Thanks for the video Josh great job figuring it out nicely done ❤❤. Take care of yourself and family and friends and be Blessed ❤️.
Very well done
Thank you very much!
Good stuff
NICE JOB MAN !!!
That took some experimentation, but it turned out very well. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
Never less than interesting. Good to see you first thing in the morning. Good job on the project and the video!!!!!!!!!!
shop made tools,great! Nice job.
Thanks 👍
I love the sound that big mill makes raising the z axis! I almost believe you stole a horn from one of those trains in your other life, and mounted it on the mill!
Another great video. I like your problem-solving techniques and how you don't give up easily. I enjoyed the cameo appearance at 15:28. I hope you're enjoying some sunshine and warmth over this easter holiday.
Thank you very much!
Bracing, get some allthread and couplers and tack a couple jack points in place at those extremes. Should still leave plenty of reach even running 2 pieces up to that big ear hanging out there to get your clamps in positions on the part. A couple ream holes near the bottom after you brought it all square (prefereably a half thou under your slot width and dowel pins to match) would make throwing these on and off the table any time a breeze. I was glad to see you finally use te other angle block as some bracing, but remember, the stiffer you can get setup before you slap that part up there, the happier she will be.
Good job Josh.
I really like watching the Boring Mill Action.
What a versatile machine.
The angle plate came out nice.
Glad that you decided to do the bottom of the angle plate.
Nice precision square.
I hope you and your family has a Happy Easter Sunday.
That’s awesome! I have to make a 12X12 at least so I can mount my big rotary table on my Bridgeport
To reduce vibration and chatter in that situation, I suggest you add mass on that triangle gusset, and clamp it there with rubber or similar between the clamp and your plate. This adds mass AND damping. The added mass changes the resonant frequency, and the damper suppresses vibrations if they are generated. This is what the shocks do in your vehicle suspension.
What you did there was to increase rigidity which also changes the resonant frequency.
Good work. I like your approach to problems and the way you find solutions.
Greetings Josh, wishing you a wonderful Easter Weekend, looks like a great episode, love the boring mill and the radial drill when you are using.......best wishes from Florida, Paul......
Morning Josh,
Resonance harmonics caused from machining is always hard to overcome. Your approach to solving it in this particular project is innovative and educational. The camera work clearly explains what you did, why you did it and the outcomes of each attempt to remedy the problems encountered. The mark of a true master machinist.
I have a little sign posted in my shop of an acronym that reminds me of things and helps when I face situations such as this. The sign simply says....SMEAC.....S= what is the situation, M=mission what am I trying to accomplish, E= execution, how and with what assets am I going to fix it, A=administration, how am I going to actually get it done, and C= command and control, how am I going make sure things are done the best i can do and in what order.
Our dreaded snowstorm was a bust thank goodness, the bulk missed us and slammed Vermont instead, they got 15-24 inches. Only 4-6 inches here and cold temps following have ensured light fluffy stuff which will soon melt away as the temps soar into the 50s this week....your magical snow-blower has done its job again !!!
Keep up the good work and if no one has said it, THANKS for bringing us along on the ride.
Don
Always a challenge ! 👍
Good morning!
10:48 You needed some diagonal bracing from the top to the sides..
12:12 Told you so LoL
pretty neat....Dave
Thanks for another interesting milling video. My black “Topper Machine” T shirt came a a couple of weeks ago. It’s my way of supporting your great channel. You’re doing work here that I haven’t seen anywhere else.
Thank you for your support. I try to film only my interesting stuff. Although I don't do a lot of boring stuff regularly.
Nice....
Used to put sand bags or lead around vibrating parts. Sometimes that helps
hi there very interesting, best to all john
Hang 2 big pipe wrenches 1 off each side of the rib in the back. I've had good luck doing that in the past. also, a single-point fly cutter might work better..... Cheers I love the vids
Was that a Mrs. Topper sighting? She was probably wnting to know when you're going to start building that giant vice. ;
It was, but no worry about a dumb vise. I have bigger fish to fry. Stay tuned.
glad for you now almost 100k subs...i follows you since around 1.5k🙂👍👌
Thanks for sticking with me.
Ghost in your shop @22:15 !
See I was thinking at your initial setup to put both plates facing the cutter and simple jack between them at the top. That way you can face mill them both in the same setup. I ran a Bullard about that size as the Lucas back when I was 19-20 and vaguely recall doing something similar.
Love me a good boring video in the morning
21:10, amazing how much weld heat can cause such distortion,
I fight everyday with it, especially with stainless weldments.......
unfortunately, my weldments are 2.5 x 4 x 7 feet sometimes....
and my shop is only 1,500 sq feet, so no post machining for me.....
glad you decided to mill the other side.......now to get a Big Donkey
size lapping stone and use some Armstrong Power to really tweak
those babies out......PB
Hi Josh
I watched a guy turn some rotors and drums for automotive brakes, and he used a rubber strap to prevent the part singing while it was being machined. I wonder if you had clamped a piece of rubber to the web if that would have been enough to dampen the resonance?
Anyway, you found a method that worked, which is all that really matters. Thanks for sharing this with us!
Fun! Just goes to show - in skilled hands and used right these machines produce spectacular results. Excellent finish on those plates.I guess you can't take rigidity and deflection for granted. By the way, you might want to check your snowblower. I think the magic wore off - it's snowing to beat hell here today, I expect it will make it your way also.
Rigidity is key on any setup. I am currently out of the country, so I'm not home to threaten mother nature. She is taking advantage of the opportunity. Don't worry, it will all melt in a day or two.
Shhhhhhhh, dont jinx the snow-blower.......its working for me !!!!!!!
I love to see sizeable machining, and manual machines being used for jobs they should be doing.
Perhaps a change in the machining order would give an even more aligned outcome.
1/ Machine the slotted face edge that goes against the table stops - so that it is machined reference.
2/ Machine the slotted face.
3/ Machine the last face. So it is machined the way it will be used and so will be as square as possible.
There are basically four ways of removing vibration.
Weight (e.g. lead) which lowers the resonant frequency (vibration point). Can be on the tool support or workpiece depending on what is vibrating.
Stiffness of the workpiece (e.g. side support) which raises the resonant frequency. This could also be changes to the part (add ribs/welds etc)
Change the frequency that the cutting induces.
Changing the spindle speed as Josh did or changing the number of teeth (e.g. different cutter, removal of every second tip, all but one tip)
Change the forces the cutting induces
Changing the feed, depth of cut or both (as Josh does)
The use of additional weight (lead strip and lead shot bags).
The spindle on this machine is so stiff no change would occur even if lead strip was wound around it. That is the vibration was the workpiece moving, not the spindle moved.
Adding mass to the angle plate would work, but the amount needed would be high and the method of mounting would be difficult and need to be added.
As Josh showed very little needed to be done to remove the vibration and it was only occurring in one direction and was the workpiece moving, so the use of a side support was simple to do and had the desired effect.
Good job on adding the second angle plate for stiffening. It really doesn’t take much to snuff out vibration in my experience, just very careful placement of struts or supports. I was thinking it’s a pity that horizontal doesn’t have a rotary table otherwise you could do it laying down, that type of mill is not common here in Australia, we normally have the rotary table type borer with a facing head built in.
I don't have the Lucas rotary table, but do have a big(24 or 30",not sure which) rotary table I can use. Just haven't had a real need for it yet.
oof, I said it in your last video, but I worked on heat exchanger plate chillers for 8 years. disassembly, cleaning, replacing gaskets, replacing heat transfer plates. The most hated job I had to do because if there was a small leak you had to start all over again and pull the entire thing back apart and clean it again.
Next week is the next plate. It will go way better. I never had to assemble one, but I can imagine it would suck.
If you dont have a big enough fly cutter, just leave 1 insert in the face mill and turn down the feed rate, run it like that. Its slower but its worked for me in the past. Cheers..
Check out my older videos. I have an 18" and a 32" fly cutter for the HBM
A thought- a 4x6 or 6x8 between the angles might further the vibration dampening. As you know far better than I, rigidity is essential in machining, and the opposed “square “ helped a lot. But metal transfers the vibrations of the inserts making contact with the edges of the plate, and wood should dampen the vibration rather than pass it along. Easy, and you probably have some shipping dunnage laying around the shop. I’ll bet you a coffee it really will improve the process and possibly help in future projects to increase feed rate and improve surface finish. What ya tink? 😂
when it rings like a bell like that could you put a "C-clamp" on the web of your piece kind of replacing your hand to deadin the vibration, just something to change the harmonic of the piece ??
The other thought I had is using only half of your cutter vertically so your cutting force is downward into the table??
🙌
Couple chain binders or even ratchet straps down on the diagonal would likely have stiffend that up
when they would turn brake drums they had a strap they would put around the outside of the drum to knock down the noise .. I was thinking take a 2x4 board clamp it to the angle brace on both sides ,, the boards should knock down a lot of the noise if not all the noise ..
I thought the idea of wood wedges between the 2 angle plates would have helped dampen the chatter. I’ve also seen an inner tube pulling an oak beam into the back of the workpiece as a damper.
Nice job Josh plenty of thinking time while machine running, But why you not have ear defenders on
i have bad Tinnitus be good idea to wear them ear plugs arnt the same noise still gets in around the ear not just
in the ear hole, Love your channel
You could also try setting that cutter off to the left so there is more downward cutting force than sideways with the teeth.
I did try that, but since the sizes were close it didn't help much.
@@TopperMachineLLC everything is worth a try when the chatter sets in.
Hi Josh, another great video, thank you. Could you have used some Anchorlube on this, would it help at all 🤔
Possibly, but I mostly mill dry. Less mess.
You are one with the machine, Josh. I am no machinist but would this not be better laying on its side and being milled horizontally?
I was thinking if you added weight on the V portion you would dampen the vibration. You handled that with the other bracket...
Milling the plates that high up from the table, without support, is akin to turning a shaft hanging out of a chuck with no center. Had I been setting this up, I would have paired the plates after drilling as few holes in the webs to "draw" the plates tight together. Just a thought. Nice video presentation.
Never ran a HBM that new, and I like right hand machines...
You'd be surprised how nice the left hand machines are too run once you get afew hours on them.
Especially on the smaller machines 3" and 4" machines. Lot easier to adjust your cuts and such since all the main controls are positioned to be turned with your right hand (if you are right handed) instead of on a right hand machine where all the controls are operated with your left hand
@@procyonia3654 The first Lucas I first ran had "Rabbit Ear" gear shifting, 4" I think
Sorry Fred I don't recognize that term in this context are you talking levers for shifting or something else?
@@procyonia3654 Yes, levers for shifting. They were 2, aprox.18" long, in a "V" formation, "
@@fredhoyt6900 ahh yeh my 41 is like that lol the feed/rapid clutch and the direction lever and rapid is opposite of the feed direction.
Use your other angle, add a right angle to the support beam and use a couple of elongated nuts on a piece of all thread, that you can make up the exact length then you can clamp the two together
Stay tuned for Tuesdays video
You should have clamped aluim or wood too get rid of Is vibration,Ran a horizontal boring mill 7 years , I have run & set up job way too big for the machine but got it done,also lot of line boring for metal Fabricated gear boxes big ones size of a Toyota car lol
I was watching a second time - did not appreciate before the condition of that boring mill. The ways all look pristine. Did you get it new?
I am the third owner. The first owner never really used it much from new, June 1963. Around 2000 it went to forest Lake, MN and didn't see much use until sold in 2006-7. It went to Stillwater MN and was used in a antique car restoration shop, but saw little use there too until I bought it in 2013. I don't use it much, but it's sure been handy.
How about bolting (or somehow attaching) a mass of of metal to the upper part of the gusset plate. That'll damp the vibrations.
Just clamp a hunk of metal where you were putting your hand. That would change the natural frequency of you part and change the amount of vibration. You can also fab a damper on the spot by using some compliant material attached to the web (that's what you were doing with your hand). Bracing the part risks changing the shape and that will show up in the end product.
Nice work and video. Did you consider running an end mill down the ridge of the base plate to ensure the edge is vertical? You may have taken care of that when you made the angle plate originally. Again great job
I meant edge.
I would have attached magnetic vices to the web for damping. Clamp any and every thing to the web..
The Horizontal Boring Mill is a useful machine. Do they even make them anymore.
Surprised you didn't mill the edges after doing the first face. The rough edges used as a reference against your blocks almost certainly introduced some twist. Or were those already machine previously?
I would have tried milling all 4 corners only.then laid the part horizontally on the table,indicate it in. That way the edge would be solid all the way.
But that would not have been as much fun.
@@TopperMachineLLC it is all about fun! And trying to do a job with the idea you had to full completion.
very interesting project! So where do you keep a set of massive angle plates like that between jobs!
Hiding in the same corner they were the last 10 years.