When Debussy Mocked Wagner
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- Debussy’s relationship with Wagner was complicated. He no doubt drew much inspiration from the composer and held his operas in pretty high regard. But over time Debussy grew increasingly detached from and critical of Wagnerism; and nowhere is this best exemplified than in the 'Golliwogg’s Cakewalk', a work which openly satirises Wagner's famous 'Tristan und Isolde'...
Many thanks to all the superb performers who kindly lent their recordings. The full performances can be viewed here:
'Golliwogg's Cakewalk' performed by Christopher Harding: • "Children's Corner" by...
'Tristan und Isolde Prelude' performed by the Tampa Bay Symphony Orchestra: • "Prelude & Liebestod" ...
'The Entertainer' performed by Paul Barton: • Scott Joplin "The Ente...
More analysis: • Playlist
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Something I should have been clearer on:
I am aware that the intro to the Debussy has a completely different harmonic function and voice-leading to Wagner's tristan chord. What I should have said, and what I believe, is that this is a 'reference' to the chord, similar to the beginning of 'En sourdine'. It's complete speculation, but given how meticulous Debussy was, and the fact that he quotes later on, I thought there was a chance this might be another allusion.
Of course it is, because its not transposed, and obviously because Tristan's motif is quoted later.
In fact, in the intro, you have two elements: the dancing syncopated motif and the romantic wagnerian chord, given in a interrogative form, to wich the short cadenza is a spiritual answer in the rag style.
The whole piece is build on this two contrasting elements, shortly exposed in the intro.
I can't feel that a 6-4-3 chord on the 6th note of the minor scale, which is such an ordinary thing in Debussy's music at all periods, refers to Wagner's chord. But after sleeping on it, I'm happy to accept that the C flat itself - the minor 6th of the scale, here and (especially) at the end of the cakewalk, really is a conscious and deliberate mockery of Wagner's erotic grandiosity. Thanks for getting me to think about this
I think they went to church together
I remember hearing that Debussy wrote to Satie commenting on his clear lack of musical form, so Satie then wrote what he called 3 pieces in the form of a pear :)
Lmao
Yup, famous tale (not sure how much truth there is to it but still a great story). Satie was especially good at making fun of his peers and critics through his own work.
That's why Satie is one of my favorite composers of all time. Because he was such a troll that no matter how goofy the story, whether it happened or not, you always have a moment of "sounds legit" 😂
The first time the laughter motif shows up Debussy has it written twice. The second time, it shows up only once.
The joke is half as funny on the second telling.
Listened to both composers for 30 years -- yet I never knew of the Tristan parody in the Cakewalk. Excellent and succinctly demonstrated. Thanks!
Bartok and Shostakovich have a pretty well known back and forth with their music.
Shostakovich gets really famous at one point for his 7th Symphony and Bartok quotes and mocks the famous repeating melody march in his Concerto for Orchestra.
Then Shostakovich quotes Bartok's Sonata for Two Pianos and Percussion in his Baba Yar Symphony, 2nd Movement as a response in a mocking march of his own (right after the text "he broke into a jaunty dance")
I didn't know this. Thanks for sharing!
you beat me to it.
Speaking of Shosta, the Lone Ranger theme in his 15th Symphony comes to mind.
@@viviandarkbloom8847 really the William Tell Overture finale theme, called March of the Swiss Soldiers, but I get your point. Those quotations are hilarious. In fact the 6th symphony‘s 3rd movement has allusions to the theme too, though solely rhythmic as opposed to melodic.
Thats the example quickly came into my mind too! It is from Bartok's concerto for orchestra mvt 4 for guys who don't know. A very inappropriate section in the middle.
Debussy: I really want to challenge myself so lets try composing with the Tristan chord. I also don’t want to feel sad so lets compose something uplifting. Oh I like how this sounds, hopefully no one mistakes it for giggling.
(mind the joke)
I'm not sure it really counts as "mockery", but I particularly like how Camille Saint-Saëns parodied the Can Can from Offenbach's Orpheus and the Underworld in the Carnival of the Animals' Tortoise movement. Rather than played as the frenetic, lively, rambunctious dance it was meant to be, he quotes the melody directly and plays it at... well, a tortoise's pace. And with such passionate emotion that it makes it absolutely hysterical.
That was EXACTLY what I was going to write and you have already beaten me to it!
He parodies several folk songs from the time in the Fossils movement, including Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. The piece's theme is also taken for his Danse Macabre
Also Berlioz’s dance
idk if he was mockering him as well
I absolutely love your channel. It's channels like this one that redeem all of the noise and bs on the internet. Thank you for these highly stimulating and entertaining videos.
Hear! Hear! Well done Fred...
Also Langgaard wrote the sarcastic work for choir, organ and orchestra called "Carl Nielsen, vor store komponist" (Carl Nielsen - our Great Composer) which consists of only 32 bars, which are to be "repeated for all eternity" in biggest forte possible! The composer regrets that all his life he has had to accept the necessity of living and breathing in the world of Danish music, infected as it was by Carl Nielsen...
Hindemith pokes fun at Wagner quite a lot! Hindemith’s string quartet “Overture to the Flying Dutchman, as sight read by a second rate spa orchestra at 7AM by the village well”
Hindemith’s dad jokes are under-appreciated
Hindemith stated though that it was no mockery of Wagner, but more of the German music industry and the overworked and overlooked Kurkapellen which were to play pleasing background music for any (non) occasion.
Since I don't really like Wagner's operas I would have never imagined that this piece from Debussy, which I knew, was meant to mock him! Your CZcams channel is a mine of delightful surprises!
Arguably the most famous example of a composer mocking other composers is Mozart's "Ein musicakalisches Spass", whereby the object of this mockery was not a specific composer in particular but mediocre contemporary composers in general, in particular in regards to their poor counterpoint skills. Listening to that work cracks me up!
3:14 The pianist is sure having fun. Even his eyes are closed as if the piece and piano are a literal piece of cake!!! 🤣😂😂
Actually I know one instance... Erik Satie in his desiccated embryos has a bit of a- Theme going on. In the first part (holothurie) he has a bunch of text making little stories. He talks about the Bay of Saint Malo and about the sea cucumbers there. Calling them slimey, moss, beautiful rocks and such stuff. He mocks a very common song at the time called "My rock of Saint Malo" (I.o.w the reason why he called the animal a beautiful rock) Then in the second part (Edriophthalma) he has a very... Sad description. In general its a very uninspiring song that I really like. When the piece is about to change he writes "citation de la celebre mazurka de Schubert" (citation to the famous mazurka of Schubert). Thing is Schubert didn't compose any mazurkas. And the theme was actually from Chopin's funeral march mocking both of them at the same time. Lastly in the third section (Podophthalma) the song is splendid but at the end when the cadence is about to come he wrote "Cadence obligèe d' Autor" (obligatory cadence by the author). The cadence is extreme, over the top, eccentric abd hilarious. It's meant to be mocking the extreme cadences of classical and romantic pianistic works in which the chords or progressions of said part were repeated over and over again in a desperate effort to make a statement or make them feel grandiose. The effect was anything but that; it made the pieces tiring, overwhelmingly flamboyant and redundant to say the least! The man was a living breathing meme/troll. As for the general titles of his songs... That's a whole other can of worms...
Great breakdown! I actually orchestrated that piece not knowing that an orchestration already existed by another composer. I felt they completely missed the point though as they orchestrate the over the top, repetitive cadential sections with changing orchestration to give it variety!!! Satie was a genius at musical comedy and mockery. Let's not for Sonatine Bureaucratique mocking Clementi's Sonatine in C major, La Belle Excentrique that pokes fun at the traditions of the French music hall and Parade which...was mocking a lot of things I guess! An unsung hero of the 20th century.
@@alexscott1257 Truly! I'd love to listen to your orchestrisation! Also the fact that he got in court because he sent a reviewer of his musical (made by him, genius painter Picasso and inspiring beautiful gay book/play writer Coucteau.) A letter saying "Sir you are an arse; an arse with no music". He got imprisoned for a few days. Along with Cocteau I think.
It wasn't simply poking fun, there was at the time also a very real ambition to shape a national music that wasn't just a Bach-Beethoven-Wagner runoff.
There is a quote that I to my great chagrin can't find anywhere, but if my memory is correct it was Erik Satie who declares "I sincerely believe it is both desirable and important to shape a French music, if possible without any _choucroute_ (Sauerkraut)"
Bravo! Wonderful to think of the little gems of music history buried in pieces I've fiddled with and not recognized. Hmmm, where else?
Շնորհակալություն, Ֆրեդերիկ: Thank you, Frederick!
I so adore your channel. It gives me such an appreciation of classical music, always feeling like it's such a glorious and significant thing after watching. Thank you.
Bartok concerto ridiculing a war symphony of schostakovich
And then Shostakovich mocking bartoks sonata for two pianos and percussion in the 13th symphony... :)
@@that_oneguy_yt6329 yes, but only DSCH deserved the mockery.
@@fiandrhi well why is that?
@@that_oneguy_yt6329 that godawful march tune that never ceases in the first movement of the 7th is just stupid. Bartok never wrote a single measure that's stupid.
@@fiandrhi as a 7th symphony fan I’m thoroughly offended
I just finished reading Irony, Satire, Parody and the Grotesque in the Music of Shostakovich: A Theory of Musical Incongruities by Esti Sheinberg, and this is something she puts forward as an example of Debussy mocking Wagner too. So you're not alone in thinking this.
Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra in The fourth movement, "Intermezzo interrotto" quotes the song "Da geh' ich zu Maxim" from Franz Lehár's operetta The Merry Widow, which had recently also been referenced in the 'invasion' theme of Dmitri Shostakovich's Symphony No. 7 "Leningrad". Whether Bartók was parodying Lehár, Shostakovich, or both has been hotly disputed, without any clinching evidence either way. The theme is itself interrupted by glissandi on the trombones and woodwinds, that works as gigles.
ive noticed that Chopin, although verbally professing only the stupendous acheivements of Bach and Mozart, has fanboyed over Moonlight Sonata on more than one occasion.
Fantasie Impromptu is in the same key and folloiws the same structure as the entire sonata itself, and in fact the descending scale-type passage which conlcudes the exposition of the main theme (in fantasie impromptu) is verbatim quoted from Beethovens Pathetique Sonata. also Chopin Ballade no 1 now that i think of it by starting in neopolitan is also a reference to Beethovens pioneering such tonal transitions in his music, and his Ballade no 2 has form almost as a reference to Beethoven myself with his Bipolar disposition (which obivously translates into the music)
Horowitz thinks Chopin took his first ballade coda from Beethoven's piano sonata 23: czcams.com/video/UxQ4ZH5vCXw/video.html
Also compare the endings of Beethoven's sonata no. 32, mvmt. 1 and Chopin's revolutionary étude, and the structure of their funeral sonatas (Beethoven's no. 12 and Chopin's no. 2)
The beginning of Beethoven's 32nd sonata and Chopin's 2nd sonata are almost the same.
@@johnchessant3012 Beethoven also quoted the second theme of the finale of his own moonlight sonata as the second theme of the first movement of Op.111, but in completely different emotion
@@zhihuangxu6551 and it's recently occured to me that Moonlight Sonata could very well have been inspired by the first prelude in C from Bach's WTC 1
This is amazing.
Another episode of "amazing connections I can't believe I had no idea about"!
not only did he get away with mocking him, but you could say that for debussy that it was... a cakewalk
Good golly, Miss Molly. I never realized these two works are connected!
Wonderful insight. I certainly would have loved to know this when first learning this as a teenager. At the time, the slow section made no sense to me. Now I think, well, of course! Thanks again for your astute observations. And, of course, thanks for being so dreamy. ❤❤
Samuel Andreyev and Robin Holloway discussed how Debussy also used the Tristan chord in "Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune".
So kool to learn. Thanks.
less a direct musical quotation, but schoenberg took a vicious shot at stravinsky in the second of his "three satires" of 1925. the text calls him "little modernsky" and is set to a mirror canon- meaning the music sounds the same even if the score is turned upside-down. take that how you will. for his part, stravinsky was too impressed to take offense.
I have played this piece and had literally no idea.
I think the 'mocking' interpretation after the tristan motive is certainly one possible interpretation, but I think a more apposite explanation is what the piece is actually about; Golliwog. It was essentially a black-faced cartoonish doll and in the stories that character was in, it portrayed horrific black stereotypes of the time, so I believe those 'laughing' ideas musically are meant to represent the nature of the doll and it being a children's toy, hence the "Golliwog's Cakewalk" being a part of the "Childrens Corner"
I see it as both. He's taking Wagner's highfalutin musical ideas and applying it to something trivial (both in subject matter and in music as I don't think Scott Joplin or cakewalks were held in very much esteem by the Western and especially European musical elite). I'm sure, Debussy thought nothing of it any way. Don't think he was trying to make some grand racial point. He was just reflecting the attitudes of the time.
M. de Falla does something similar in "The three cornered hat", quoting the initial motif of the 5th symphony of Beethoven after the miller's dance
your videos are amazing man keep up the good work !!!
My absolute favourite is the entire score of "The Pirates of Penzance", music by Arthur Sullivan. Almost every single piece contains a good-natured joke at the expense of some other composer, usually Verdi. Some examples:
- "Come, friends, who plough the sea" directly quotes the Anvil Chorus from Il Trovatore by Verdi.
- "Hail Poetry" is a ripoff of the prayer scene from "The Force of Destiny".
- "Poor wand'ring one" is a parody of every Gounod waltz aria. (Play it back-to-back with, say, Juliet's Waltz to see what I mean.)
Oh, gosh, you're right about “Poor wand'ring one.” I just listened to “Juliet’s Waltz.” That’s amazing! Thanks! 👍
I do like that line about "that infernal nonsense Pinafore". I'm glad they decided to stick it to the composers of that one, the beef the creators of Penzance had with them was pretty rough
Aren't they the same people? Gilbert and Sullivan?
@@parrotreble8355 That's the joke.
Yes i remember this well. They were always trying to 1 up each other..!
The first measures of Bruckner's Adagio of his 9th symphony, he quotes that begginig of Tristan and Isolde. But he reworked, so you need to pay attencion to the gestures, to the motivs. It's not exactly an harmonic quotation, but more a motiv and phrase quotation.
Satie in his embroyns desseches no. 3 finale pokes fun at Beethoven's 5th's last movement's finale with the repeating, rambunctious I chord, sometimes with a V thrown in there.
Actually, in the same piece, no. 2, he also mocks Chopin's funeral march. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryons_dess%C3%A9ch%C3%A9s
"they were a pretty sassy bunch so i'm sure you'll find some" 😭
Very interesting. Did you discover this on your own or is there documentation on this. It seems pretty obvious when you point it out, but I would have never noticed this.
It is a common interpretation
Erik Satie's Sonatine Bureaucratique (1917) is a parody of Clementi's Sonatina No. 1 in C Major, Op. 36, infamous among beginner piano students.
Great explanation as always!
Another Schostakowich example - in the 1st mvmt of the 8th symphony there is a prominent twisted quote from Franck's Symphony in d minor (in the Sanderling recording 1997 on YT cca 16:20 to 17:10).
Thanks for your video. I am not sure that you can say that Debussy makes this chord in to a pre-dominant chord. That is what it is. The Tristan chord is an adapted French 6th with added chromaticism. The second example is a clearer reference to Wagner than the first. Whatever the intentions of the composer, there is a broader context for using 6th chords from which Debussy cannot emancipate himself to readily.
There's historically been a lot of debate over the function of the Tristan chord. This debate would have been contemporary to Debussy as well, so he wasn't a stranger to it. By making it a pre-dominant in his reference (though, to be honest, I don't really buy that interpretation to begin with), Debussy would be asserting what the true function of the Isolde chord is, or at least poking fun at it as the video author states, or perhaps even at the debate itself. Being charitable here by going along with the video author.
The second example is an undeniable reference, imo.
@@JohnSmith-qy1wm I don’t disagree with you. I suppose that my point was that the 6th chords move chromatically to the dominant. This is what gives them their function. Otherwise, they become a type of dominant themselves (given with the French, a rather whole tone version). That said, to state that it becomes a predominant is akin to saying the sun shines. If it is the sun, it shines. If it is a 6th chord, it moves to the dominant.
I though it was relatively settled that the Tristan Chord is a hyper-chromatic French 6th. I am open to other arguments though.
Wagner goes to the dominant after Tristan chord on the very first iteration (e7, dominant of A), him not resolving it until the end is the whole point... it represents the tension of forbidden love and is resolved once Isolde "consume" so to speak her love on Tristan's dead body.
Saint-Saëns has some fun with other composers in his Carnival of the Animals.
Amazing. I had no idea.
Till Eulenspiegel also quotes Tristan und Isolde, the opening line of the former taking a motive in the Liebesnacht and turning it into something far more playful
Great video presentation, Fred. I had never realised this so thanks for enlightening me!
Thanks, Leon! Very much enjoying your recent uploads :)
the funny thing is, children’s corner was dedicated to debussy’s daughter, who was three when he did so. this movement specifically was inspired by the golliwogg, a toy that was very popular at the time
in a sense, debussy mocked wagner in front of his daughter like an adult joke in a kids film
You could argue that pretty much everything Erik Satie wrote is a making fun of... kinda everyone, I guess...
not at all
@@f.p.2010
What do you mean? He was an absurdist to the core. Watch the film Entr'acte (1924) which he participated in just before his death to see what I mean.
@@RuthvenMurgatroyd that's something different then, because in context of this video OP comment insinuates Satie mocked everyone with music quotes
@@f.p.2010
Oh, I see. Well then, not that I'm aware of. I believe his music is mostly original to the point of sometimes being absurd (I am aware of him having quoted himself a couple times though).
I'm not enough of a musician to know whether or not he did so I'll have to defer my opinion to any actual experts on this one I'm afraid. If anyone else does have any relevant input on this question I should be delighted to hear it but as far as I'm aware you are correct.
Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra is a famous one, as noted earlier. In a similar vein, Peter Schickele's "Last Tango in Bayreuth" for four bassoons spends a fair bit of its energy mocking Tristan.
More explicitly, Don Giovanni has three consecutive quotations from other compositions, the one from The Marriage of Figaro beating out the other two.
Recently heard the full opera and never dreamed anyone would steal similar from there. De little bossy sneak!
lovely vid
I’m shocked! I’ve known both the Wagner and Debussy for years and never made the connection!
The middle section does indeed feint toward the Tristan chord. Three of the four pitches are borrowed from it.
Thanks for this analysis ! I will go to bed a bit smarter tonight.... Regards from France
I saw Tristan and Isolde once 45 years ago, and learned golliwog's 5 years ago. Never would have thought of comparing the two. Anyway the quote from Wagner in golliwog does seem out of place when you think about it. It's a cloth doll after all. But it's all good in the end.
Gazillion quotes and paraphrases in Shosta 15
And there is Thomas Mann’s Tristan’ scene where Herr Spinell convinces Frau Klöterjahn to play the piano while the rest of the Sanatorium are on an outing in the snow
When are we getting another piano music evolution vid?
There is a citation of this same passage in Alban Berg's string quartet. Can't remember which movement. Thanks for the nice video!
I believe it's in the Lyric Suite. It doesn't sound satyrical though.
Saint-Saens using the Can-Can at a very slow tempo for the Tortoise is a fun one.
Erik Satie in his work Embryons desséchés.....The movement called Holothuroidea mocks Loïsa Puget's song' Mon rocher de Saint-Malo'. And in the second movement ,Edriophthalma, he mocks Chopin( the funeral march from his Piano Sonata No2 in B flat minor). And in the 3rd movement, Podophthalmia, there is a pastiche of a Beethoven finale...comically never seeming to want to end.
3:01 I can think of Sonatine Bureaucratique by Erik Satie, making fun of Clementi
I've heard about these 'duels' in the classical music world but this is the first time I've seen one explained in such detail. How do you know it's a mocking? Is it because the composer said it was, or is it a derived conclusion due to known dynamics between two composers?
In this case, you have the emblematic quote from the high point of German romanticism pushed into a cheeky children's dance. Not much more needs to be said.
"Chopin is the greatest of them all, for with the piano alone he discovered everything." - Claude Debussy
He had nice things to say about Rameau, Satie, Faure and Chabrier too.
And who was moved by Satie or anyone else you mention as with Chopin? No one
@@alvodin6197 I was.
@@alvodin6197 I was too. The complex relationship between feelings and music is not a race.
Oh, that Debussy quote again. You have become worse than those Nigerian Prince spambots.
Congrats for the video Frederick. One little question. I don't get why you label as V (dominant) the Gm/Bb (III⁶). Could you clarify this? Thanks
Les sons et les parfums has an even stronger example of Debussy resolving the Tristan chord (IMHO). Extra complicated because of the shared references to Wagner and Baudelaire.
Merci für vielen danken, Jawohl?
2:53 oops! Great video though.
If I am not mistaken, Liszt pokes fun at Chopin's winter wind's right hand motif towards the end of the second to last section of Hungarian rhapsody no.6
Nope, it's just Liszt modulating out of the Preludio theme to the final theme in F major.
@@ErlingHaalxnd yes, but out of all the ways he could he chose that one way. I guess it's unintentional, I still find it pretty funny either way tho :D
@@motazpharaon1397 Fair enough, the reason he chose it that way because using the chromatic scale, you can easily find ways to modulate without making any effort to try find good chord sequences.
@@ErlingHaalxnd ohhh I see I see. I get it now. Thank you for this wonderful little snippet of knowledge :)
Fauré and Messager mocking Wagner's Ring in "Souvenirs de Bayreuth". Funny.
Although he loved Wagner, Chabrier wrote something similar, "Souvenirs de Munich" "quadrille" for piano 4 hands, kindly mocking Wagner, with titles like "trousers", "hen" etc. Hilarious.
Hilarious Fred what a fantastic subject for a video, "unable to muster Wagnerian sincerity"... ;-)
Debussy only lasts 7 seconds lolll 😆
This reminds me of Lennon talking about how he and Paul laughed thinking about what serious critics would deduct from their Helter Skelter song, which was (mostly) nonsense lyrics.
stravinsky’s star-spangled banner?
Super nice video! I cannot help but think that this aversion comes from the petty nationalistic dissensions between France and Germany. I kinda find it cool that people get passionate in Art, and go in war against other schools, but at the end, the most “mature” stance is to recognize (in this case) that both the French and German schools are worthy of praise and wonderful to listen to.
Surely you're aware of the Faure/Messager Souvenirs de Bayreuth, a set of quadrilles for piano duet, each a lampoon of Ring Cycle leitmotifs. And there's also Chabrier's delightful Souvenirs de Munich, another quadrille piano duet, this one poking fun at Tristan. The French definitely had a love/hate relationship with Wagner.
Great find.....I love Debussy, but find Wagner hard going apart from the great tunes. I learned Cakewalk about a decade ago and never recognised the quotation.
I'm sure Wagner didn't mind...
Peter Maxwell Davies writes a disturbing/hilariously mocking version of Handel's "comfort ye" in "8 songs for a mad king", although it's not so much a jab at the composer as it is a part of the character of King George III. (I recommend watching a live recording)
this is the original twitter beef
Debussy's mistake was to imagine that music was about sound rather than rhetoric. He mocks that which he cannot understand.
Actually, it is well documented that Franz Liszt wrote some pieces to mock and challenge past and future pianists, works like the Transcendental Etudes, The Paganini Etudes... and...his various Réminiscences...and
..well, virtually every piece he ever wrote.
In Japanese traditional poetry (waka 和歌), this technique/phenomenon is known as honkadori 本歌取, or honka-sampling, viz., the allusive variation of a honka 本歌 (previous/original canonical waka).
Good job. Ravel satirized Shostakovich’s “Leningrad” in the former’s “Concerto for Orchestra”.
Wow Ravel is so good he satirized him from his grave
(Ok you probably mean Bartok)
@@Nilmand hahah oops, yep
I think you mean Bartok
Taking the mick? Not off the top of my head. Ives referenced Tchaikovsky and Beethoven in his concord sonata. The Alcottes screams Beethoven's 5th at times but the movement was meant to evoke the Alcotte home and the sounds one might have heard there.
the original distrack
Classical beef. Wait not, romance beef
Mahler 3 opens with a minor key variation of the main theme in the finale of Brahms 1st Symphony, which, itself, is somewhat a variation of The Ode to Joy. I have never figured out if Mahler was having a dig at Brahms or giving a shout out. This wasn't the only time Mahler nodded to Brahms, as he alluded to the 2d Symphony finale in his own 1st, and the 2d Piano Concerto in his own 2d.
all of those were accidental
At which part did Mahler quote the second piano concerto?
Where can I hear Mahler's 2d Piano Concerto ?!
Mahler did not write any piano concertos. The original poster meant that Mahler alluded (referenced) Brahms' piano concertos in his 1st and 2nd symphonies.
While Brahms resolved Beethoven's mist at the beginning of the 4th movement of his 1st symphony with the horn(s), I've read somewhere that Mahler said, "you just don't get off (resolve) that easily". I think that is why Mahler borrowed from Brahms and used the flowing melody in Brahms' symphony (which Brahms borrowed from Beethoven) as the intro of his 3rd symphony.
Haha, is this the early 20th century equivalent of a rapper's beef?!
no fking way this is too funny
This piece is so ironic to me: Debussy is mocking how long it takes Wagner to resolve his chord (something Wagner no doubt knew how to do in 7 seconds), only to drift from traditional harmonic functions himself in the next 4ish years. He probably didn't know it, but Debussy was working towards a very similar goal as Wagner.
Wagner was Debussy's no. 1 inspiration, whether he liked it or not
Pelleas et Melisande is one of the few operas that actually lives up to the Wagnerian standard for music drama.
Stravinsky's Pulcinella?
🎂
Wait this is so funny hahahaha
Does the first example really count? Since it's really just an enharmonic half-diminished seventh chord (as you notate in the score) on its own? A "Tristan chord" is only one in that very specific context right (such as your second example)
You're absolutely right, it's not a Tristan chord by function. However, considering that he quotes Tristan later, I'm betting that the inclusion of this chord - which is used as a 'prelude' to the piece - is no coincidence. Debussy was known to be meticulous and something like this would surely not have passed him by. But we'll never know for sure! :)
the Tristan chord is also the Ring chord. It literally only depends on context
@@FrederickViner indeed, pulling the first part of the piece into the interpretation was novel to me, but makes even more sense. It is weird to have an isolated instance. It is more natural to set it up.
Reading at 01:25 remember the flat before A - (I forgot ... haha) but the tone-pitches are really the same as the first part of Tristan Chord. The essence here is, though, that Wagner dissolves into an E major 7 (Not Eb or Bb7)
I also once saw a passage in a Chopin mazurka compared to the Tristan opening (Chopin op.68.4) but just as other places it is the context which is wildly different; -- Chopin's use of the chord is for a transition whereas Wagner is making an opening statement. I am not married to Wagner, I am actually angry that such good music were used to make myths about hero-superiosity used by Hitler and nazis to laud the german people.
I believe the Danish composer Rued Langgaard was mocking/satirizing R. Wagner in Langgaard's Symphony No. 11, "Ixion"
L. probably included Wagner's "disciples" in his musical derision.
Thank you so much for the support, Roland! I'm not familiar with Langgaard, so educating myself about his music will be how I spend this evening :)
Interesting! Why do you analyse the first cadence as perfect, rather than imperfect? The cadence is on the dominant. The tonic is the start of the next phrase, isn't it?
Thanks, George. Yes, that would be more accurate! I'm so accustomed to spotting V-Is that I must have got a bit overexcited...
@@FrederickViner I've only just started getting a handle on this too!