The Trouble with Toltecs
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- čas přidán 11. 10. 2022
- The Toltecs left a lasting legacy on Mesoamerica that is impressive but paradoxical. Were the Toltecs rulers of an empire or products of popular myth? What can history and archaeology tell us about this culture? Discover why the Toltec legacy is so troublesome to pin down.
Misconceptions: The Gran Chichimeca by Aztlan Historian:
• Misconceptions: The Gr...
Aztlan Historian's channel:
/ aztlanhistorian
Chapters:
Introduction: 0:01
Historical Accounts: 3:27
Tollan and Tula: 10:45
Tula's Layout and Architecture: 16:20
Wider Tula: 21:59
Connections with Chichen Itza?: 25:21
Assessment of Tula: 29:42
The Toltec Legacy: 32:45
Patreon: / ancientamericas
Facebook: / ancientamericas
Sources and Bibliography:
docs.google.com/document/d/1P...
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"history is seldom kind to history"
that earns a subscribe right there
Thank you!
I tried to interest our city council in putting a skull rack downtown, next to the kiddie splash park, but they had already spent all the money on a second ball court.🙄 We'd have to raise the funds ourselves. So if anyone wants their name on a paver ($50) or pillar ($200) of the new skull rack, we are taking donations.
Thanks for the chance of working with you, my friend! Cenca tlazohcamati!
The honor was mine!
saludos
@@victormedina9154 ¡Saludos hombre! :)
Que significa, "Cenca tlazohcamati"? Apenas voy a empezar el vídeo pero nunca lo avía escuchado
Ome de Mis dos creadormeh favoritos!
9:27 "Who taught the clay to lie." may be a metaphor to show how convincing the statues were that they looked alive even tho they were lifeless mud. Therefore the clay lied it is alive.
Thx for that quote here, I listened to it several times over but couldn’t figure out what the dude was saying!!
My brain went straight to a Sumerian fudging the numbers on a clay tax form.
I was thinking the same thing, about the realism of the statues etc.
There is a story about that ... from Latin American literature.
Can't remember it exactly now.
I’d argue its an architectural reference, probably to building large monuments or structures. Could be totally wrong though…
My parents are from Nicaragua and the Nahua presence here is amazing. Historians and scholars believe that the Nahua of Nicaragua are descended from Tollan’s Toltecs. The evidence to support this theory is astonishing, such as the Nicarao’s expertise in medicine, the timeframe of the Nicarao’s migration to Nicaragua after the fall of Tollan lines up almost perfectly. In fact it’s taught in high academia that the Nicarao are Toltecs who simply migrated south after the fall of Tollan. Great video.
Thank you!
thats so fascinating!
Not just Nicaragua the Pipil people of El salvador too! A form of Nahuatl is even still spoken there as the southern most form of Nahua language far outside the original scope that's born and spoken in Mexico, it's the southern most because the language is now considered extinct in Nicaragua. However we also have the legend of Topiltzin establishing a population in El Salvador before moving onto Nicaragua during his exodus. Another thing is not only was he believed to take on the name of Queztalcoatl but was also believed to be an incarnation of the deity to his people, which may explain the rivalry between him and Tezcotlipoca in myth if it may have also been grounded in historical events. A king that detested human sacrifice where rival and later groups would glorify the practice.
@@MysticRyokan Nawat isn't extinct from nicaragua, there're small pockets of speakers in the central and northwest of the country. It's estimated that there's 100 native speakers left and more speakers that blend nawat-spanish together mixed.
@@KaiserWilbur oh rip than I guess you better go and correct the academic sources cause they also say it went extinct in the region by the 19th century.
The Toltecs "teaching the clay to lie" means objects they would make look so good it's deceiving to their eyes, they look so good they can't believe what they see, like the clay is lying to them. It's a really powerful, albeit convoluted, way to compliment their work.
"teaching the clay to lie" also can mean that what looks like stone is actually made of clay.
@@yanina.korolko yeah and that sounds less cryptic too.. my compliments to you. (People speak in English as if they know what they are saying... 'convoluted' is included and 'complement' is lost. :).
As someone who enjoyed studied Classics in college, I love learning about the amazing histories, languages, and cultures of the Americas. Too often are they overlooked, and you’re doing an amazing job highlighting them and sharing their stories. Thank you for the amazing content!
Thank you!
The mere fact that European Mediterranean culture is singularly referred to as "The Classics", in complete disregard for the rest of the planet, goes to show the bias. I too am deeply appreciative of these detailed looks into Mesoamerican culture.
Same here, I love learning about all the many different cultures that the Americas have had from Thousands of years ago. There are so many unknown people/cultures who are not talked about at all today. One of those cultures that fascinate me is the Pre-Olnec culture of Monte Alto, Guatemala. They predate the Olmec and science now are saying that the Pre-Olnec people were probably the first to know the properties of magnetism about 800-1,000 years before the Greeks and Chinese.
@@AncientAmericas so none has any idea at all, I mean at all...the more I look at these ancient stuffs, the more I come to think that specialists also have no clue of what they translate, and the chaos and missmatches of artifacts with dna, how much people moved in the past, how much humans lie about themsleves and about the enemies well...no clue at all.
I see the good intention in many of you with these works, and for real, much respect, at least your version is not the classic unilineal kind of narrative..but I quit with the "official historical record", kudos to you for putting so much info together, a lot of work, but for me, it only serves to improve that no clue, there is no way to trust any historical record, we can only take what may be convenient for sleeping better.
nice vid as I say. thanks for keeping the doors opened to other views and providing all possible proposals.
@@bobwilson7684 archaeology always has room for error. If you think the evidence is being misinterpreted, you should present your own ideas. An outsider's perspective can be a valuable thing.
You don't have to be an empire to have a big impact. City states like Athens and Sparta had massive historical and cultural impacts. Toltec's were heavily influential in a similar way despite not being an empire level power.
Athens had a maretime empire though
And Hellenic influence in general was greatly spread by Alexander the Great, and the massive empire he created.
@@Carewolf but their lasting influence is arguably the immaterial philosophical and scientific concepts that they left behind. It could be similar in this region, where the Toltec's are regarded as highly developed in culture and knowledge, just as the Greek's were in Ancient Europe.
@@Genghaodeshenghuo those "immaterial" influences were the schools, languages, ideas left behind of the culture when the state fell not the complete death of the people and culture...
Hi swabcraft, carewolf and others, I just thought I’d opine a few tidbits on this blessed controversy. Firstly I’d say that Athens did intentionally embark on an imperial agenda, citing the mighty Thucydides as an early historian on the partickulars. Whether Sparta ever shared that agenda I would be far less certain of. That they resented opposed or even feared in a rather manly sort of way, naturally, the various consequences the Athenian ambitions could impose on Sparta and its allies is fairly apparently why they matched or opposed is probably clearer to say Athenian military forces doesn’t mean that Sparta itself wanted or coveted the same things that Athens did.
As a sidebar I’d add at this point that as Thucydides often describes, whether it is fair to generalize that ‘the Athenians’ desired an empire is very debatable (npi), but after the debates the voting etc certain policies were acted upon to advance the imperialist agenda and the rest of em had to suck it up. (Sound familiar??)
So probably lots of ppl reading this already know this and I apologize if I sound pretentious or good forbid, misinformed about things that happened way back when
.
Since it’s all just a preamble to discussing,…? Hang on a sec I gotta review here a bit!!
Now THIS is how you lay down the history of ancient Mesoamerica
Topiltzin seems very similar to King Arthur. Nowadays, we're pretty sure that Arthur was a real person or conglomeration of people (personally, I think he was Riothamus), but the legends got so crazy that we end up with things like Le Morte d'Arthur. Seems to
me that the same thing happened here with him.
Yes, sounds possible, something on the lines of a historical fact that got over exaggerated. Also kind of reminds me of the protestant reformation, a popular ideology that spread without a central empire to enforce it.
I can totally see that
People act like propaganda was a 20th century invention! Despite that, your theory and the preponderance of evidence around the world suggests otherwise.
There's a clear mythic basis to Arthur's stories even at the start. When a hero gets deified that identifies them with earlier cultural narratives.
@The Legate Haha, I read that and immediate thought of what happened to Chuck Norris 20ish years old :P
This is channel consistently publishes some of the highest quality history content on all of CZcams. Thank you for sharing your talent with us
Thanks!
I just binge watched all of your videos for past 3 days and couldn't get enough of them, that upload is a godsend, amazing content!
Hooray for good timing!
This makes me think of Troy, which is a relatively small archeological site, but which had great significance to the Greeks and Romans.
The Toltecs have always been "problematic." Great show! You did a wonderful job synthesizing the material. Mil gracias.
Gracias!
Does that not feel threatening to you? One day it may result in Mexico Explained. :P
@@oisnowy5368 ha ha
Not really. Not when you consult the sources. It only became problematic when archaeologists declared Tula Xicocotitla as the only Tollan. Creating a cognitive dissonance when presented with anything else.
I love when any history content discusses the sources involved
I like the idea that they were legendary for their craftsmanship and more abstract "refinement" among the mesoamericans, like sparta was to the romans for their militarism and well, spartanic lifestyle & upbringing, maybe based on real facts or more a kind of transgenerational flanderisation. And in that way maybe became an ideal to emulate. Maybe like "rome" after the fall of the west-roman empire.
I learn so much from your videos, i’m Mexican myself and I’ve always took pride in my Aztec heritage! Can you make a video about Aztlan and the origins of the Nahua peoples, thx in advance ❤
Thank you! We'll definitely get to the Aztecs in due time. To be completely honest though, I like covering more obscure topics that don't get as much attention.
Am positive am part Toltec my grandmother was indigenous and tall AF. From Jalisco México. And meeting other Indigenous people from the same area they have Bright yellow eyes as well. And darker skin. The Toltec bloodline still exist
@@expendablewater7474 One thing I absolutely love about the Nahua people is how far they extended, they settled as far south as northern Costa Rica. Historians claim that the Nahua people of Nicaragua, El Salvador and Costa Rica are descendants of Toltecs, they’re known as the Pipil-Nicarao. They know this cause of the Pipil-Nicarao’s expertise in medicine, the Nahuatl dialect the Toltecs spoke is also the exact same the Pipils and the Nicarao spoke, and the religious and political similarities are identical to the Toltecs. In addition the timeframe of the Nahua migrations in Central America after the collapse of Tollan is well timed
Fall of Civilizations has a great doc on the Aztecs in the meantime :)
I learned more from it than I ever did in school
@@AncientAmericas maybe something about the origins of nahua peoples in general and when they became a distinct group from other Uto-Aztecan Language Speakers would be nice
It genuinely rules that it took a half century of research looking into where this legendary city could possibly be until one really really smart guy realized it was likely at the place that had the same name effectively. I hope he was with his beloved cat when he figured this out.
Sometimes the answer is too obvious to consider.
Does punctuation forbidden for you? This mess is completely unclear, it's impossible to quickly read your sentences
@@alfotiosacaramde9631 I didn't have any trouble with it. Also, someone who uses entirely the wrong word, 'does' instead of 'is', kinda has no right to criticise someone's writing and grammar. Especially since you forgot the punctuation at the end yourself.
@@alfotiosacaramde9631 dig a hole
@@alfotiosacaramde9631 You are just bad at reading comprehension, you illiterate moron. There's some punctuation, numbnuts.
This is one of the only Historical channels on CZcams that talks about Pre Colombian American history, happy I’m a Patreon!
I'm happy you're a patron too!
This is a great video but I'd like to add one thing that went unmentioned. In western El Salvador we have a group of Nahua people that claim descendance from Tollan. The common story we hear there is that they were part of the nobility who left Mexico (giving them the name pipil) during the socio religious conflict between Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca. How this went down and when these nobles left is uncertain but the linguistic split happened about the same time as this event. Anyways just thought that was cool. Also Ce Acatl Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl is such a great name. One warrior/Reed, our prince, Quetzalcoatl. The ancestors went hard with that one.
I actually came across the pipil in my research because they have their own accounts of topiltzin. It's really interesting how far those accounts are spread.
@@AncientAmericas Have you learned about Xoconoxco (near Tapachula, Chiapas, near the Guatemala border)? It was populated by Nahuatl speakers and had a significant impact on regional trade and culture in the post-Classic/pre-conquest era, in a region dominated by speakers of languages very different from Central Mexico.
@@habitualforeigner Yes I have and it is a really interesting area. There's also some Maya presence in that area as well if I'm not mistaken.
@@AncientAmericas Actually Xoconochco wasn't a Nahuatl-speaking region, nor a Mayan one; but a Mixe-Zoquean one, and the dominant language of the region was Tapachultec, a language from a very ancient family which may have been spoken by the Tenocelome.
@@AztlanHistorian I stand corrected! Thank you for clarifying.
I'm from Hidalgo and my city is very close to Tula. I went to Tula and Teotihuacan when i was about 6 years old but haven't had the chance to go back to truly appreciate everything and experience it once more since I live in the US.
Lately I've experienced a renewed desire to learn more about my ancestry. I kind of felt disgusted and sad when I realized I knew much more about other cultures and civilizations from foreign places but knew almost nothing about my own ancient culture and roots so I appreciate the level of detail in your video. Thank you.
you shouldn’t feel bad about that. All you can know, is what you’ve been taught. And the further along we go it seems like we find out much of it isn’t true
I've said it before and I'll say it again, thank you for the time and effort you put into these videos. I look forward to more from you.
You're welcome!
Your early videos were awesome, and you just keep getting better and better! Thanks for all the work you put in!!
Thank you! Nice to see that I've learned a thing or two along the way.
Just when I had finished rewatching all of your videos, here you arrive with another. Thank you.
You're welcome!
Seeing a new video of yours pop into my feed always makes my day!
I love the timing. I've had Toltecs on my mind for a while now and was looking for some good literature on the topic or any good, reliable, and interesting materials and... there you are! Fantastic work, as always! Thank you! (Second time watching!)
Thank you! If you want more material check out the bibliography for each episode. You can find it in each video's description.
Toltecs Until The Fall Of Tula by Nigel Davies is an excellent book, synthesizes a lot of the known and written material really well
Seeing one of your new videos ready to watch makes getting off work even better.
I’m very happy to run into this video and your channel. Thank you so very much!
I love content like this, weighing the evidence we have and looking at it in different ways. Top notch stuff
Thank you!
The tools they used to construct mighty structures could be considered Toltec Tall Tech.
Look what we got here! A comedian!
Rooftops !
A courtesy of *_'TOLTEC'_* , get your licence, now...
No wonder their city was burned down...
Yeah, but noone of their roofs endured to see the day of modern day, so their Technology cinda not good
@@equilibrum999 so does roof from any modern town in europe after ww2 ...LMAO
Huh the Talltec empire.
thanks for the new video dude!...
I found this channel about 4 months ago.
watched ALL you videos(some twice) in a fortnight and now the wait between videos is just long enough to almost forget, and then here we go!!!.
the toltecs at last!!
love the work dude. there's no one explains the americas better than you!
Thank you!
You folks delivered! Youve got no idea how much i needed this visualization. Cant wait for more regions!
Thank you!
Great video as always! Great to find videos in English, I understand Spanish well, but grew up speaking both languages, my English is better growing up in Texas so is nice being able to paint a clearer picture. My fathers is from Guanajuato and have otomi history, and he still made metates when he was young with his grandmother in Comonfort GTO.
Love the subject not just exclusive to Aztec (Mexica) or Maya history!
Nice that you know your ancestry my family is from Romita Guanajuato and A small ranch outside of Penjamo Guanajuato. Since that area was the borders of the Tarascan and Aztec borders we really don’t know what tribe/s we descend from. The Otomi were also very present in the region like you said.
@@davo1924 very cool. well thats just the last language my dads grandmother and other people on the Rancho still spoke and still kinda know. My uncle taught me a few words, but he said they weren't taught that language as children but they heard it spoken amongst the adults.. He grew up just outside San Miguel de Allende on el rancho del rincon. I've seen other information that says the borders and the frontiers of those nations as well as the Toltec, were protected by various Otomies. But thats a whole other subject because they're a very complex and deep rooted and often forgot part of Mexico history.
He told me that and I'm probably just spelling it as it sounds but Te keesh que di, meant buen dia. I wish I could pick their brains a little more often.
Love your videos I use them to refresh what I’ve learnt from my college archeology classes
If you want a much better archaeology refresher, check out Nate Fossaaen's channel, czcams.com/channels/Ptpx23uFPZQAHK7Ou_yvlQ.html
I was recommended this video today and discovered two awesome channels for the price of one. Thank you!
You're welcome!
Been waiting for this one. Thanks for doing it
You're welcome!
Yey! you mentioned Nicoya. I was born about 6hrs from there, in San José. Costa Rica. I'd love you to make an episode (better a series, ha) about indigenous cultures of Costa Rica. It lends itself to be super interesting, being geographically a narrow point of encounter, like a bridge, between the North and the South of America.
Thank you! I would definitely like to cover them at some point.
Love your channel! I'd love to hear an episode about the Haida or other Pacific Northwest Coast cultures!
Yes! I second that! The cultures of the US Northwest into the Canadian southwest are amazing, with fascinating and illuminating values, like the potlatch. Theirs are my favorite arts (except for the Bella Coola, in truth, which creeps me out), the totem poles, the way they track their heritage (reminds me of the Aboriginals of Australia), their social structures, their reverence for the spirit world. I hope you do!
Thank you! Assuming no catastrophes happen, there will be a PNW episode next year. If you have any good books or articles, please feel free to share with me.
@@AncientAmericas If the weather holds, I will try to excavate them!
Another superb video. Thank you for all the hard work
Thank you!
Work was rough, but this video made my day! Thanks for always delivering the goods
Anytime!
I think that teaching the clay to lie was a reference to their sculptures being so good they looked real.
I think that's a great interpretation.
@@AncientAmericas thanks
Your videos are amazing. The history of the Americas is so interesting.
Thank you!
About halfway through this video, I decided your channel would be worth a subscription. Good stuff!
Thank you Horus!
Ahhh!😊. You have made my day again!!! Gratitude!!!!
WOW another episode already? As always, the effort you put into these videos is greatly appreciated. And good to see you partnering more with Aztlan Historian, it makes me smile thinking about all of the good indigenous history content coming out lately
Here's hoping!
Well it's better than reality Tv🤷♀️🤦🏻♀️🤮
Conspiracies, political indoctrination and all sorts of horrible biases are something we need to counter whenever possible, and I love to make my little contribution to that effort. Greetings
Sorry I'm not used to comment here. Thanks for the video! It was a very instructive one and also brought me back some childhood memories.
I'll likely be on the minority side here, but I'm pretty sure (no proof, no doubt) that Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl is a historized or euhemerized mythic figure. Two elements lead me to that suspicion: 1) *both* his and his opponent's name are ones of Nahua gods. 2) He disappears as the morning star - a trait of the god Quetzalcoatl.
Of course I have no way to prove this, and would have to take a look a the sources, but it seems to me a clear case of historized foundation myth in which traits of historical/legendary people and some ethnographical knowledge of past societies were incorporated into an originally mythical tale (compare Romulus in Rome).
But all this may just be some crazy perception of mine. Thanks again!
Thanks! There's a lot of literature you can read on that and it's really fascinating.
@@AncientAmericas I do hope you get to their astronomical/astrological science. It really is mindblowing, both in its development, its precision, and its social and spiritusl application. There's something very quirky about having the orbit of Venus, and its phases, as the primary religious focus. Deep.
@@grovermartin6874 I do need to make an archaeoastronomy episode at some point.
@@AncientAmericas I will be holding my breath! A friend wrote a program/book called "Aztec" (at least, that was the name of the computer program) that had some superb delineations for the day signs. Very easy reading. There are two bits, a couple of which you referred to, like 1 Reed (the name of Bruce's publishing company, actually) and 9 something, Rain, maybe? But he got the two parts mixed up, according to the people I met from that part of the world. And they all knew their signs! One fellow, from Nicaragua, volunteered his sign, which he translated as the Wanderer, when I expressed amazement at all the countries in which he'd lived.
Your videos are SO well done. And getting better and better!
Great work as always AA!
Thanks!
That "teaching the clay to lie" quote was a very cool way to express sculptural mastery and artistry with the material. I know very little about ancient Mesoamerica, so thank you very much for this video! I enjoy the long videos to listen to and your excellent content.
God be with you out there everybody! ✝️ :)
I have a theory of why there were so many ball courts there in Tula. Maybe, like the Romans with Gladiator schools, they had areas where they trained captured warriors to play the game before heading to the large arena to be sacrificed. Though it could also be that the smaller courts weren't meant for ritual use, and were used like we would use a tennis / basketball court today.
Your videos are incredibly informative! By far the most knowledgable channel on YT regarding mesoamerican history. Do you have a recommended reading list for anyone that wants to dive deeper into this time and geography?
Thank you! The closest thing to a reading list that I have is the bibliography for each episode and you can find that in the description. Is there a specific area and time that fascinates you?
big fan of both of you guys channels. Keep up the good work!
Thank you!
Your comment about the ancient world being brightly painted is a good reminder (19:24). I found the relief featured at that time stamp to be difficult to discern the shapes and details. It would be beneficial to substitute a high contrast grayscale or researcher’s shape outline over these images so that they’re easier to understand. I appreciate all the work you put into each video and the opportunity to learn about the peoples of the Americas. It is a great service to everyone who discovers your videos.
Thank you! Sorry about that photo being tough to see. I'll try to be more mindful.
Last week I visited the Calixtlahuaca archeological area and museum. The museum director gave us a tour and made reference to “the actual Tollan from the myths, which is not Tula”.
This is hardly the first time I hear that from Mexican archeologists and museum guides. There is a belief that the “real Tollan” was not Tula and either has not been found, it was only a myth, or it was actually a mountain that can be seen from Tula that inspired the shape of the new Basilica of Guadalupe.
There are multiple tollans in history and mythology. It can refer to many different places. Which Tollan was he referring to?
@@AncientAmericas I don’t know. She was talking about the Matlatzincas and their Mexica influence, and then she brought it up. I don’t remember the context.
Yours is the best analysis about the Toltecs I have heard so far!
I’d love if you talked about the Matlatzincas. I had never heard of them until I moved to the Toluca valley and started visiting their archeological sites of in Malinalco, Teotenango and Calixtlahuaca on the weekends. Also the Otomis and Mazahuas. 😁
Greetings from Metepec
@@arenasnefi Got it. The Matlatzincas are an interesting group that don't get much attention. I hadn't heard about them until earlier this year. I'd like to get around to them someday.
Have you ever did a video on the foods of Central and South America? Again you and Atlas Pro are awesome.
The only food episodes I've done are corn and potatoes. I'll probably do another next year if all goes well.
I just recently learned of you channel and it's fascinating, I love it taking in all this info.
Love that everytime a new life moment happens for me I get a video from you! This time it’s a new job :)
Congratulations! Good luck with the new job!
Just a nitpick: There's no actual "return of the Quetzalcoatl" story that Cortez exploited. I'm really surprised you actually mentioned that myth.
The video is still very well made however, can't wait for the next one!
Thank you! Yeah, I debated including that in the episode but it's so well known by the public I thought I'd mention it in passing. There's a lot of debate about whether or not it was actually a thing at contact which (again) depends.on how much you trust the sources. Personally, it strikes me as a later invention. Someday when we get to the conquest, I'll go into it in much more detail.
@@AncientAmericas Your replies are the most stimulating and educational that I've run across on the internet. It feels that we're all in a class or on a great field trip with you!
would you mind doing a video on the cassava, mandioca or yuca in the future? would love to hear about more of the great crops that fueled this cultures. Thanks a lot for this videos.
So much amazing detail, great job.
Thank you!
Another video, well done. I love your stuff!
Thank you!
Excellent video as always! You should do one on the Hopewell Culture or Poverty Point Mounds next!
Thank you! And today is your lucky day because I already made an episode on Poverty Point!
czcams.com/video/5kwXmjEbav8/video.html
@@AncientAmericas oh nice! I thought I had already watched all your stuff! But, surprise!
@@AncientAmericas This is exciting!
History is written by the victors.
Super video, thank you 👍🏼
History being written by the "victors" is baby's first deep thought. If you're an adult and you're still using that phrase you're either a teenager who's still ignorant but wants to feel intelligent, or you're a neo nazi or neo confederate.
Thanks!
Would love a audio only version on Spotify to listen to while working out ☺️ love the content!
Great and informational video as always! I learned a lot about the Toltec history! I now understand what you mean on how troublesome it is to be pinned. Thank you for all the work you put into making the video! That was a really good voice describing the Toltecs btw.
Thanks Marcus!
@@AncientAmericas you’re welcome!!!
As an Iowan i would love to see a video on effigy mounds national monument but i think the spirit cave mummy would be more interesting
I need to get out there and see those someday.
@@AncientAmericas If you want to know more about the spirit cave mummy check out ask a morticians video on mummys she does a really good job covering the subject
While they were not an actual empire makes me wonder if they had so much influence by being really good diplomats and being really good at intermarrying with the royalty of other kingdoms and city-states in the area. Kind of like Meso-American Habsburgs. If that were the case then makes sense that so many important figures in later civilizations would claim descent. To show the similarities even today most of the remaining royalty in Europe have Habsburg ancestry if you go far back enough even if the blood has been watered down. That includes the British Royal family.
That could definitely be a possibility.
It reminds me of how in Europe, whether ancient Rome or early medieval Britain, everyone wanted to claim descent from Trojan refugees. In Mesoamerica, it was the Toltecs.
This is such a cool video! I dabbled lightly in researching Toltec history and I There were definently moments where I was confused on what was fact and what was just speculation, thanks for making a solid and understandable video hsing what archeology and knowlege we have so far!
Thank you!
An excellent and informative video. Thank you.
Im surprised Michael Coe didn’t considered the maya as one of those cultures. I wonder what were the mexica’s views on the maya legacy
That's a very good point.
The Mexica barely had contact with the Maya; so for them the Maya legacy would've been seen much like the Franks saw the legacy of the Han Dynasty in China... not much to say or think about that
hes a while old guy, not much u can expect to learn
@@v_enceremos don't go too hard on Michael Coe. He made huge and invaluable contributions to Maya and mesoamerican studies. I always recommend his books even if they are a bit dated by today's standards.
@@AztlanHistorian I wouldn't go *that* far. But yeah, their relations were much less dynamic than people usually think.
this is great stuff! any chance you'll do more on non-civilization societies in the future?
Thanks! What exactly do you mean by non-civilization? Just want to make sure I understand so I can give you a good answer.
@@AncientAmericas it's a hard question to answer but basically I would define it simply as any society that doesnt have complex systems, a state, class stratification, and agriculture in combination. For instance where I'm from the indigenous people's are the abenaki and the haudenosaunee.
Very cool episode, thanks!
Thank you!
Thank you for highlighting the cultural/ideological links between these nations!
I can't stop thinking about how ancient king names become god names in civilizations down the road. The stuff of legends throughout the centuries.
Can't help but make at least a connection with the Roman kingdom and how those kings have/had some sort of legendary status by the time of Caesar, and we now have doubts about their historical validity...
In Quetzalcoatl's case, the god predates the king... assuming he was a king and not a high priest. Greetings!
Finally, someone smart will give us an explanation on that complicated "fake Toltec empire" debate.
I guess it's _a little_ disappointing there was no Toltec Empire to rule the entirety of Mesoamerica, but we still have other Mesoamerican empires to talk about.
Eh, sometimes history isn't quite as exciting as we'd like. Doesn't mean its any less interesting though.
@@AncientAmericas Agree, it was still pretty cool learning about this long gone regional kingdom and the mysteries surrounding it.
I've always studied the Ancient Near East, and however fascinating that history is, i am VERY far removed from it. I live in the Americas, among MesoAmercan people, and am beginning to find their History every bit as fascinating as our Eurasian. Your Channel is a great help!
Keep up the great work!
Thank you!
i absolutely love your videos. i wonder if the toltecs were their own distinct ethnic group, i. e. was there a toltec language? and are there descendants of the toltec today?
If I were running for office there, I'd be descended from Toltecs, that's for sure.
Thank you. Most of what I read suggested that the Toltec spoke Nahuatl or a closely related language.
i think they all spoketh Nahwatl
As one from the Far east, Toltec legacies in Mesoamerica strongly reminds me of legacies of Zhou dynasty in the Far east. With great help of confucianism, Zhou dynasty of China has been always remembered the greatest dynasty in the entire Chinese history with ideal politics and society which every nation should follow, despite that, in actuality, Zhou dynasty was honestly "meh" of dynasty at the best, which originally began as local power on the edge of Chinese culture at the time and rose its hight as Western Zhou (1046-771 BC), but after moved from its original base, Haojing, on the edge of Chinese world at the time into Luoyi, which is well inside of Chinese heartland at the time as Eastern Zhou (770-256 BC), Zhou spent majority of its era as one heck of miserable dynasty (one of the most miserable in all of Chinese dynasty in fact), where it totally lost grip of majority of its territory and spent its centuries as mere puppet state which few ppl cared...
The reason why Confucianism emphasize legacies of Zhou dynasty largely came from nostalgia Confucius personally had on good ol' Western Zhou dynasty, but it is undeniable that legacies of Zhou dynasty left huge impact on the Far east...
Great video!!! Great partnership too haha I love seeing people working together it’s amazing and shows what we can really do.
Thank you!
Great content! Thank you so much
Thank you!
Let's be thankful we have a decent amount of Aztec cultural knowledge at all, even despite such bias. Also in terms of the Toltecs and figures like Ce Acatl Topiltzin, it just reminds me of the biblical stories of the United Kingdom of Israel under David & Solomon; a legendary golden age that's not well collaborated from the archeological record. If there ever was a historical Mesoamerican priest called Topiltzin, than what survives is probably mostly fabricated via centuries of oral telling.
I mean ig… but that’s like saying “we’re lucky to have anything from the etruscans” like… if your ancestors didn’t destroy history so much maybe you would have more to inherit
Agreed. You can certainly appreciate the sources we have while also being aware of their limits.
@@BingusDingusLingus
As far as I know, I don't know any ancestors in family who are Spanish or colonized/conquered Central America or are responsible with burning indigenous books.
@@BingusDingusLingus Friendly reminder: both the Aztecs and the Spanish burned books.
Titillating tale, twisting turn of Toltec intricacies.
10 points for alliteration.
damn wasn't expecting another video already, and on such an interesting topic!
Thank Aztlan Historian for that. He was the one who helped get this episode and research rolling. I was pretty intimidated by the topic.
I am deeply impressed that you are still able to think and speak coherently after delving into such a debated and distorted quasi-history as such remnants may be after so many have mucked about in what ideas may, or may not be, Toltec.
You have a strong mind!
I almost went mad writing this episode. It was a grind.
@@AncientAmericas That makes sense. Good job!
"Taught the clay to lie" - come on man. To hide that it was simple clay, to make realistic sculpture with and put bueatiful color on clay objects.
That's not even a hard one, talk to me about Old Norse kennings sometime.
Hindsight is 20/20 my friend and I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed.
@@AncientAmericas haha, it's fine. Like I said I have cross culturally applicable knowledge 👍🏼
Loving this!
Fascinating... as always!
Thanks gringo loco! Looking forward to your next episode!
The wisdom of the ancient civilizations of Mexico and the Americas you won't find them in history books, they are heavily biased, because like you mentioned they were written post colonization to favor the colonisers and to justify their invasion that at time it was illegal by Spanish law. Toltecs were shamans with a strong spiritual wisdom behind. You find the wisdom of the Anahuac in the oral traditions of indigenous communities in Mexico, or the text written in Nahuatl.
They are what they were. Warriors of the feathered serpent. Put all the mystical, spiritual spin on it you like.
My mothers side of the family is from a town near Tula, Hidalgo. My grandmother was indigenous and only spoke Otomi until she moved to Mexico City in her late teens. I am very proud of our origins, thank you for making this video. ❤
love your content, thank you
Thank you!
I was drawn to this because I have a tarot deck with the Toltec as the theme. I hadn't ever heard of it (until I found the deck, and it was interesting to me, and I had never heard of a reader using the cards, at least on YT, so I bought it) so thank you for making this video. I haven't put much into researching the culture, since I was researching my Egyptian deck.
You're welcome!
Love your videos
Thank you!
A little late, but great video as always! The Toltec question has been a minor interest of mine for awhile now, and this video is fairly good explanation of the controversy surrounding them. More recently an interest of mine has been the various Pueblo peoples of New Mexico and Arizona and their history. I'm aware that a lot of their history is undocumented, and that the post contact history is out of the scope of this channel. In spite of those facts, I'd like to see you make a video on them. Perhaps the migrations in the 1200s and rise of their current culture? Or maybe on the controversy about what Chaco was?
A lovely comment is never late! There will be a Pueblo/Chaco episode at some point. Worry not!
amazing video, thank you
Thank you!
Never notified of this video wtf I love your content!
Thanks!
always fascinating to watch and learn. And I am typing from a totally ignorant stance. But did go to Chichen Itza when I was 14 and I remember it being awesome.
As always, this video was extremely well done. The uncertainty about who and what the Toltecs were is an honest, truthful accounting of what might be the case with this civilization while acknowledging the substantial uncertainties involved.
Thank you!
Excellent content. Tula was contemporary with Chaco in the Southwest.
Thank you! Hoping to cover Chaco Canyon sometime in the near future.
Great show
Man I really did learn the trouble with Toltecs today. Thanks a ton!
You're welcome!