Masako, I have a suggestion for your whatifs in the future and how you can make them a bit more enjoyable could you provide timestamps to skip the recaps at the start of each whatif?
So I don't know if this is in the works and I'm just out of the loop but since your what-ifs have been so intriguing, I was wondering if you would ever consider making your own sequel to dragon Ball z. see where you would have taken the story instead of the way super and GT took it.
Of course the Potara fusion should be stronger than the dance fusion technique. One requires divine relics another is created through a dance. Making the Potara fusion be temporary instead of permanent just makes Potara be a complete rip-off of the fusion technique instead of its own unique thing.
The potara retcon still kinda bothers me to this day. Mainly because it begs the question: what's the point of the fusion dance now? >Easier to do >Double the dance's time limit >And (as of recent) around the same strength as the dance anyway. Why would you EVER want to use the dance over potara if the opportunity presents itself? Side note: Not to mention it makes Elder Kai rather look incompetent for not knowing about all this despite being so confident about his knowledge.
I think you got it backwards, the point of the Fusion Dance Technique is availability. Potara Fusion as the name implies requires a divine relic worn only by gods. Now that both fusions are essentially the same-- what's the point of the Potara fusion?
I think the reason most of these are so galling is because they remove the stakes/tension previously establish in the story. Permanent fusion, Rage and loss to become Super Saiyan, the Dragonball limitations, Hyperbolic time chamber; all fixed with hand-waves because it would take to long to seriously solve the problem at hand.
That's Toriyama for you. Remember why he gave the characters flight to begin with? Because he was tired of drawing them traveling everywhere. It's also why Goku can teleport now. And why SSJ has golden hair, because he doesn't want to shade in the black.
The Potara time limit retcon is incredibly infuriating to me. Mostly cause it was needless. They specifically pointed out earlier in Super that you can just use the Dragon Balls to unfuse yourself, with Kibitokai unfusing. Done. Vegito should just use the Dragon Balls. No time limit retcon needed.
@@RaphielShiraha64That's what should've happened tho! Trunks' Spirit Sword made absolutely no sense. It came out of nowhere, and he shouldn't have been able to "defeat" someone that *Vegito Blue* couldn't.
Yeah i don't mind. But i fo like someone's else's idea if the potara break for mortals it ends the fusion. Yeah doesn't explain the buu magic but hey it's better than turning the potaras into fusion dance clone
To be honest, the whole one hour thing in the potara fusion now makes the debate between the dance and earrings moot, especially when now both fusions are said to be the same in multiplying both users power levels. I loved that potara fusion was a more effective multiplier at the time because of that "you'll be stuck forever" catch they had, which balanced both fusion methods perfectly. Would you rather have a weaker fusion that lasts 30 minutes or a stronger fusion that is permanent? Ya know?
I kind of have a problem with it cuz Buu damn near exterminated all the kais I’m comfortable with Buu’s magic canceling the potara earrings ngl I feel as if super is a cheap cash grab
If i can throw my hat in for the Worst Retcon, it’d be “Piccolo Daimou/Picolo Jr. were never demons.” It just feels short-sighted. If the Nameless Namekian can train to become Kami, and have knowledge about heavenly being like Yemma and King Kai, who’s to say that Piccolo Daimou can’t have connections to the Demon Realm? Yes, the only “true” heavenly beings, the ones that are born the way they are, are the Kai and the Angels, and the “actual” demons, the Makai, are born the way they are. But again, regular people can train to become Kami, Kai Attendants (as shown with Future Trunks in the Super Manga), and even G.o.D.s. Give Piccolo a taste of that Demon Energy. Let there be actual peril when Piccolo tells Gohan he’s going to turn him into Mazoku. Let the people Gohan ends be unable to make their way to the afterlife, as Kami stated should’ve been the fate of Raditz. Don’t be so limiting.
With Piccolo Daimao being a flesh and blood manifestation of the Nameless Namekians negativity and malevolence, I always saw King Piccolo as a Demon of Mortal Origin. Especially since the Mafuba used to contain demonic beings sealed King Piccolo.
Rikki Scott Old Broly lacked any type of substance and was just Something that only really deserves to be used once, it’s a fun distraction but not a character
It was never retcon, in the first place because Toriyama stated Bardock was Never Strong Enough to be even considered a middle-class man. he was only strong for a low-class Saiyan..
@@demi-femme4821 eh, its more like him unlocking more of his vampire powers in jonathan's body, which should make him stronger than his first form due to jonathan being naturally stronger than dio.
I haaaaaaaaaaaaaate what Super did to Potara Fusion. The fact that it was permanent was the ONE THING that made it distinct from the Metamoran Fusion that came before it. It was more powerful, but it being permanent made using it come at a high price. The loss of one's individuality. Of course, the writers didn't want to have Goku and Vegeta stuck that way, and so they decided to retcon how Potara Fusion worked. But you know what else they could have done? Use the Dragon Balls to wish themselves separate again. It's really not that hard. Heck, they already did this with the Supreme Kai and Kibito, so why would they come up with this stupid rule about Potara only being permanent for gods?
Im curious to your thoughts on the whole "Sensu Beans" retcon. I could have sworn they went from just giving you a stamina/energy boost like eating a full meal when you were fatigued in classic Dragon Ball to just becoming a first aid bean in Z.
legit nowadays a character could lose all their limits and half their skull and a senzu bean would make them a okay. Really, senzu beans and the time chamber are just things to speed the plot along now.
To me the worst retcon is Dragon Ball Minus. The Bardock special was perfect & didn't need to be fixed. And the best Retcon was DBS Broly. I love the fact they did my boy right.
Honestly, I sorta feel like maybe the Piccolo "retcon" might be one of the few things Toriyama planned in advance. I mean, he's a bald green dude with antennae and pointy ears, that's one of the most generic alien archetypes around. It's a reveal that really shouldn't have come as all that big a surprise to anyone.
I'm still sad about Trunks not staying in the Super timeline, instead of going to an universe with his duplicate. So many opportunities lost... Imagine Trunks at ToP
@@veruskatorres9276 Well there's enough of an age difference I doubt anyone would be confusing the two, doubly so now that Future Trunks has blue hair now
I think to this day that Toriyama should have worked harder to keep the humans on a more even keel. I think he could have spent more time thinking less linearly and more laterally instead of just watching numbers get bigger.
If only he just had humans be more naturally resilient with energy use than saiyans so Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha could learn kaioken and keep up better
@@LowResCatExplosion in the 3 years the humans could've learned kaioken as it was basically useless to goku, and improved upon it, maybe even using 50x, essentially super saiyan for humans.
The worst retcon by far had to be in Super that a mortal potara fusion had a time limit, and as a result totally buried SSB Vegito. You would think Elder Kai would've known that and warned Goku in DBZ??
I have two small gripes with the video: 1. I don't think GT is a retcon to the series. It was just a new adventure that tried to be a new Dragon Ball. 2. Goku being a Saiyan isn't too far out of question as several characters mentioned that he was abnormal. Otherwise it's a great video that I agree with
The saiyan reveal actually kinda made a bit of sense for the Sun Wukong comnection. He did come from a tribe of monkey people who fought and lived in mountains while Wukong went off on his journey to come back later and get super angry and transform into an angry monstrous form iirc.
Honestly the one hour Fusion time never bothered me honestly. Regardless if it was permanent or not Toriyama could not have Goku and Vegeta fused forever. Eventually he had to split them somehow. Now what is Stupid is the whole “the more energy used the shorter the fusion time” that is stupid in both GT and in Super. What I always liked about Vegito is that he knows he knows how strong he is. He knows how quick he can destroy you. But knowing how much time he has he could afford making a fool out of his foes. Unlike Gogeta who a only has 30 minutes and can’t afford to do that. The energy time drain throws all that out the window.
JRC SMASH The energy thing was a problem in Z too not just GT and super. Remember gotenks? Not to mention that I highly doubt they fought Buu for an hour.
@Rikki Scott Because they won't always have a Kai on hand to borrow their Potara. Yes, the Fusion Dance has a shorter time limit, but it's always readily available, and therefore more convenient to use.
I feel like all the retcons sometimes divide the fan base more than dub vs sub, or funimation ost vs Japanese ost. All the retcon constantly cheapen things and end up drastically changing meanings and interruptations for new generation of fans. Individual fans end up picking and choosing where they want dragonball to starts and end.
I don't mind the change of Bardock having future site to having a feeling about Frieza. Mostly because I at least got the feeling he had done similar thing to other planets himself.
When it comes to the GT Universe... I'm actually scared when it comes to New Namek. Sure, the Namekian balls haven't been exposed to a massive surge of negative energy from the opening of the depths of hell... but they do get used FAR MORE than the Earth Dragonballs. Just the thought of how much negative energy must be swelling up within them chills me to the bone. Unless Dende conveyed to his people what happened on Earth, thus making them realize they'll need to wait over about a thousand years before it's safe again, Goku's efforts to stop the Shadow Dragons might very well have been for nothing, made all the worse since he's now in another dimension with Shenron, so can't help should it happen again
Except for the implication that Earth's dragon balls are not the same as New Namek's. If it was Dende's dragon balls that resulted in the Shadow Dragons, we would have already seen the new namek edition. Instead, it's Kami's dragon balls that are the problem (as at least one of the shadow dragons is a result of a dragon ball era wish). Keep in mind that the existence of the black star balls is only because Kami split from his evil half. Who is to say that said darkness didn't infect the dragonballs in some manner? Realistically, all we have to indicate that this issue was present in other dragonballs is an off-hand comment by Mr. Popo about another planet that was destroyed by an evil dragon who proceeded to take out an entire galaxy. This is sort of counterbalanced by the apparent complete ignorance of the kais and other long-lived beings as to the dangers of the dragon balls. You'd think they would know about this and would have said something. The closest you get to that is King Kai/Old Kai (can't remember if both or just one) complaining about abusing the dragon balls, but never says anything about actual consequences, being more upset by viewing them as 'cheating'. To be perfectly blunt, the amount of stuff pulled out of rear that contradicts earlier information in the series as a whole is enough to make it impossible to tell what will stay canon and what won't.
The way I see it, the Namekian Dragon Balls might not be vulnerable to the same negative energy buildup because they are the "originals", whereas Kami's were an imperfect copy. If not that, the Namekian balls are also physically much large than the Earth ones, and so may simply have a higher capacity for storing negative energy.
The main issue I have with the Potara retcon is that it wastes the perfectly good setup from earlier in Super when Shin and Kibito used the Dragon Balls to de-fuse. Plus they then managed to blow through the fusion in ten minutes, meaning it was all a waste anyway. As for Shin not knowing anything about Potara, he *already* didn't know anything about it in Z. Him continuing to know nothing has no impact on him as a character.
I dislike how Toriyama changed the Saiyan to a race of bloddy thirsty warriors who never care for anyone to a race who just were victims of Frieza and weren't not evil.
@Frizzurd Believable fiction requires verisimilitude. An entire race being objectively evil with no justification is only fine if you refuse to think about it.
Does Majin Buu needing to sleep throughout all of the Dragon Ball Super arcs count as retcon? Cause I hate it. They could've used his help, but he's always seen sleeping when the final antagonist shows up.
I personally disagree with you in the potara fusion retcon. I feel like adding in a time limit just made it less of a last resort thing, now it’s basically just a longer fusion dance. If it had been a forever thing, Goku and Vegeta wouldn’t use the potara unless it was ABSOLUTELY necessary. Yes its not like we’ll see the cast fuse much but if it were something that Goku and Vegeta only stuck to as a last resort then that can make the situation a lot more drastic, with the only way of defusing being some form of magic or the Dragon Balls whom even then may not be powerful enough to do so
TheMightySwooj That’s true, but in my opinion, I feel like it would’ve been better in terms of the narrative to keep it a permanent thing. But that’s honestly just me, I see this as Toei acting too safe here as having consequences for actions are heavy things for a story. If you essentially remove what could have been a big consequences, it requires more assurance, of course one of the reasons Toei didn’t keep it is because Vegito being perm would be too OP which makes sense but had they’ve used a better excuse to have them defuse such as “Demon Magic or dark magic can disturb the magic that the potara uses to keep the users fuse” then at least that’s acceptable cause a majority of us already believed it and it feels like a much more viable excuse because it makes sense. We don’t know a lot about Buu, his power is ultimately untapped and whatever he truly is aside from being a Majin is honestly unknown. There is viable reasoning that whatever allowed Buu to be existent is something that we have no real clue who he actually is feels more logical. It gives more depth to Buu as to what he actually is while also giving a logical statement as to why Potaras defuse at times. Though this is very opinionated and I can see why it has been seen as not permanent at all, after all this really isn’t technically a retcon (while also being one if you think about it) as Elder Kai simply gave off some misinformation that was later correctly revealed by Gowazu.
(Long post incoming. TL; DR at the bottom) Honestly, I feel that the back tingling was like the midiclorians of Dragon Ball. I wish they had kept the required rage aspect to unlock SSJ, even if you could access it at will and all other forms afterwards the second time onwards. Would have actually given a REALLY good explanation and characterization for universe 6's Saiyans if a little(?) change at the Cabba vs Vegeta fight had been made: Cabba not only turns SSJ1, but as Vegeta continues to test him (instead of going SSB right off the edge and knocking him out), he turns SSJ2 and pushes Vegeta to do the same, and maybe even go SSJ3 before Vegeta is finally forced to go Blue and take him out. While this feels initially like cheapening further the Super Saiyan, a la Trunks & Goten, it actually makes sense, and specially if you look at the way training works IRL: a) Vegeta's method of training was "train till you can't move, then train more", and likely was the case for the rest of the U7 Saiyans. This is not the most productive way to get stronger and is very dangerous. By contrast, U6 Saiyans lived more peaceful lives but now worked as universal police. They still had reasons to train but now properly rested and ate. Just like comparing a hermit hunter who must push himself everyday to get food and stay alive to a professional athlete with routines, food and rest, U6 Saiyans would have the edge not because of training more, but because of training better. *BUT*, b) The SSJ transformation requiring an emotional trigger would help explain why the SSJ concept is foreign to U6: more peaceful lives mean that there are fewer tragedies, and in those cases there are also better support systems to help coup with them. Cabba facing an adversary that just went from roughly his equal to 50 times stronger than him and with no one to bail him out or help would have probably make him the most stressed Saiyan in U6's history, thus putting all the pieces in place to finally reach that level. This would mean that U6's Saiyans had long reached the potential to go SSJ and some gifted individuals like Cabba (the ace of the universal police) could already access the higher forms like SSJ2 and SSJ3, but not the god forms for obvious reasons. What they lacked was that trigger that they were missing in their lives of comfort. Like a soldier that has gone through the Boot Camp and simulations but never been in an actual battle, they had the strength but not the right state of mind. Cabba being "baptized" by Vegeta would have make so much sense. Instead, we got ourselves wondering why no Saiyan in U6's history ever asked "What I make my back tingle?" Of course there are plotholes like Zenkai boost and mastered SSJ, but I'll leave to others to discuss. TL; DR: SSJ requiring emotional trigger explains why U6 saiyans were stronger but did not get it bc they lived in comfort and never experienced a situation to trigger it. They had the potential but never used it.
Yeah, at least you could reason that since Goku and Vegeta did their first SSJ transformations before siring Goten and Trunks there might've been some weird epigenetic thing going on. The tingles just seem like a copout.
“Fans cried out: THIS JUST CHEAPENS SUPER SAIYANS AND THE ANGUISH GOKU AND GOHAN WENT THROUGH” Uhhhhh, did you forget the part in Z where little Trunks shows off how easy it is to go SS and Vegeta grumbles “what is this? A super saiyan bargain sale?” We’ve been through this before, but there were many ppl who watched Super and not Z, so they wouldn’t know that
For me it's different. When Kid Trunks went Super Saiyan I chalked it up to: Well if Future Trunks did it would it make any sense that Present Trunks can't? Should they have went Super Saiyan so young? Probably not, but let's not act like Super Saiyan wasn't on it's way out. We got Super Saiyan 2 in the last saga and was going to get Super Saiyan 3 in the Buu saga. Giving Trunks and Goten Super Saiyan so early was so they don't get shafted when they had to face Majin Buu.
Makes you wonder what vein-popping rage Goten and Trunks would've had to undergo if anger was the only key. Surely bog-standard toddler tantrums didn't trigger it, and there's never any explicit trauma.
The reason for the Tournament of Power was retconned. Twice. And both times it felt like a last-minute addition to make Goku look less like a psychopath. Speaking of which; Stupid Super Goku. Toriyama claims that he was always like that, and to some extent he's right. Specifically, when we meet Goku in Chapter 1 he's like that, but he grows as a person throughout the years. I mean, he's stopped with the pat-pat, for one. Also: S-Cells. Now, this is an out of universe explanation so you can ignore it if you want to, but it's still a dumb explanation for why later Saiyans don't have tails and achieve Super Saiyan more easily. Not everything needs an explanation, and this is exactly why.
I'm glad to finally see someone who agrees with me about the ToP thing! As for S-cells, I don't mind the concept *existing*, per se, but I don't like the explanation behind why they occur in higher numbers; if it were something like "they're more plentiful the more 'potent' your ki is" or something like that it'd be fine, but I don't like that they increase as their host/owner/whathaveyou is more "gentle". If that were the case Goten would be mopping the floor with Vegeta on the reg.
Agreed 100% I'm so sick of people acting like the whole ToP thing was some grand plan all along rather than the last minute BS addition it actually is. As for Saiyan Midi-Chorlians, hopefully they're forgotten quickly just like Midi-Cholrians in Star Wars were.
When ever I did the whole pretend to go super saiyan thing, my back was the part I flexed the most. I figured that's where they got it from so I never minded it.
To be fair the back, or more specifically the spine, is what tails grow out of and the Saiyan tail has always been linked to their power. Also when the transformation is pushed to it's ultimate limits at Super Saiyan three the user gets long hair that covers their back.
Masakox I have to say you're my favorite Dragon ball CZcamsr your'e Videos are enjoyble and thoughtfull aswell as your'e What ifs and you always explain you're opinions very well.
I have to be honest, I'm not so much bothered by the Vegito retcon as much as I feel he was thrown into the Black arc purely as fanservice. IMO, what they should have done is kept him a one-off, then just use the Dragonballs to unfuse them later, much like what they did with the Supreme Kai and Kibito. Why create another DEM, when you've got a perfectly good one already? Likewise with the dance, you could incorperate variations that allowed up to five people to combine (like Fusions). That way you could create many different combinations, and let other characters get in on the act. So while one might give more power, the other has more potential.
@@projekttaku1 Tori had interview where he stated he didn't plan for vegito to show up after the Buu Saga, and Tory was the one who brought the idea up and they decided to go through with it.
@@ZeothTheHedgehog please show me the interview, cause that seems extremely unlikely. If toyotaro wanted to bring back vegetto, why would the anime do it first? If it was toyotaro's idea vegetto would only appear in the manga of dbs, not the anime.
Who invented the scouters aren't entirely a retcon, since Saiyan/Tuffle war was anime exclusive filler. Granted it was filler based on note Toriyama gave the anime staff, but that still leaves quite a bit of wiggle room in regards to how "canon" it ever was. Especially since the same story that established all of those details, also still went with the notion of the Saiyans being wiped out by a meteor (called by that planets Kami no less), rather than by Frieza. So the facts have long been tenuous at best. Besides, while the new Broly movie shows Frieza giving the saiyans new scouters, he also specifically mentions them being an improvement over the scout-scopes the saiyans were already using. Since it's never clarified who invented the older scope style devices, it's entirely plausible to assume it was still the Tuffles and that by extension it's still the Saiyans who gave that tech to the Cold force, even if Frieza's scientists later streamlined the tech into the modern scouter design.
My personal problem with the Potara retcon, as I feel maybe the same with others, wasn't the new 1 hour time limit. My problem is that it had a time limit AND on top of that it got drained quickly from using Blue. Now this was annoying at the time, but it's something that I got over until recently when in the DBS Broly movie, Gogeta has a 30 minute time limit... yet he seems to last longer than Vegito in Blue. It doesn't make sense. Gotenks in *Super Saiyan 3* lasted about 5 minutes against Buu. Why does Gogeta in Blue seem to last just as long if not longer (if we're also including his base and SS forms as well)? It also then makes me think back to the Buu arc and while yes, the Vegito vs Buu fight lasted a long time, mostly because Vegito was toying with Buu, there's no way it lasted an hour given how fast these guys actually move when they're fighting *cough Tournament of Power cough*. Vegito also rarely used his full power against Buu, only really showing some force when Buu was about to literally tear the whole dimension up with his vice shout from being angry. Sooooo there's no way he used up all the power of the Potara. I get it, you can just chalk it up to "story convenience" to explain most of these things, but it's still pretty dumb when you think about it. It makes Vegito seem like he wouldn't last as long in a fight against Gogeta even though it technically should still be slightly in Vegito's favor.
The potara may have been designed to avoid a corrupted kaioshin going to fusion powertrip and maybe threaten Zenoh's greater plans and designs. The dance however, which was invented by mortals, may not have that limiter, allowing the fusion to reach a higher output. However, IIRC the Gogeta SSJ4 fusion suffered from having Goku in a bad shape prior fusion. It made the fusion result suboptimal.
@@ThanatosZero I don't really have one, I just explained my thoughts on my original post, which most of it is pretty factual given it comes right from the series.
@@DarkPaladinX77 Super Saiyan 3 may be a inferior transformation in regards to stamina. On the other hand, Gotenks short time span as a SSJ3 may be the result of him not mastering the form. Both Goku and Vegeta had plenty of time to master their super saiyan blue forms, meaning that their fusion with it may be a lot more stable.
I mean I have my own head canon that the Tuffles where the Sayians first planet conquering mission under king cold. As King cold was interested in the technology that the Tuffles possessed and it was a training exercise to the see how competent the Sayians where. After destroying them, Kikono and the cold force scientist got to work reverse engineering the technology. So the cold forces did create the technology but it was based on original Tuffle technology.
It actually would be a nice twist seeing how the saiyans would be used as tools for King Cold. I agree on that. That would show that saiyans are enslaved and it could be the reason why universe 6 is more evolved, because they didn't live under a tyrant which suppressed them unlike universe 7.
To be fair, everyone has the capacity for evil, so it would be impossible to revive only the good people. I mean, what does being "good" even mean? Is it anyone who has never committed a crime? Anyone who has never taken a life? People who aren't douches? It was way too vague a wish to begin with, so it was honestly best forgotten.
@@josephbriggs2257: Barry isn't even "evil", he's just a selfish jerk. Not to mention it's been a few years and so maybe he wasn't quite so bad when the wish was made, before ego and fame went to his head.
Super’s retcons are mostly irritating but there are some that alright, but what they did to Trunks and the Universe 6 Sayians were the worst ones. I also don’t like how they retconned the Bardock special but Gine is alright I guess.
The "Tingly Feeling in the Back" retcon is something a lot of people like to say cheapened Super Saiyan, but it was really just an explanation to it. If ki is something inside of the body that flows through it, then it has to be doing something in order to initiate the Super Saiyan transformation. Saying that it is concentrated in the back and brought to a boiling point makes sense, and if you look at the body language of the characters upon first transformation, there is some emphasis on the back most of the time. I actually would have liked this more if it happened in the Buu Saga and Gohan explained it that way to Goten, allowing him to go Super Saiyan, and then Goten tells Trunks and he can do it that way as well. It would have been a great explanation for that and even built Gohan a bit as a teacher while pissing off Vegeta as someone who couldn't get their son to that level. Would have added layers to the Buu saga if they did that. That's why I can't hate it.
If it was explained to a pet of the transformation, and not simply a way to achieve it, then it wouldn't be stupid. Simply getting rid of the rage aspect to it entirely is why it's rightfully hated.
@@SneakyHuntingHT When people experience emotions, especially in Dragon Ball, their body and ki move in specific ways. Goku and Vegeta would remember the feeling more than think about what their ki was doing at the time, so if they were doing that the whole time, they wouldn't know it. It's easy to say it was always the case that it happened this way. It doesn't deserve the hate since it doesn't remove the rage, it just explains what it means to get it from rage. Kale still transformed from rage, so it was never gone.
MasakoX I'm your biggest Fan and If you're reading this I have a few questions to ask one them is that I Love your What if Videos my favorite one is (What if Cell Turned Good?) Keep up the good work!😁
Personally, I hate the tingly back retcon not because it doesn't make sense, but for what it does narratively. It means that Caulifla gets to skip what going Super Saiyan was supposed to mean, a culmination of heated emotions and narrative arcs. She doesn't earn it through hard work or emotional turmoil (to be honest, she doesn't really earn any of the power she gets), she gets to take a shortcut with no consequences and it robs her of the opportunity to have some interesting character growth or at least a chance to show she actually cares about anything that's going on.
11:33 the whole back thingly thing could easily be said to be a different way to achieve saiyan form, but a more "forced one". the anger makes the power flow more natural but with less control while the thingy back teks it under control but is less potent. in fact one could say the optimized method to use the form is gain i through rage and then use the thingy back to learn how to put it under control until regulating the power becomes like muscle memory. i think that's even how goku and gohan learned how to keep saiyan form 1 stable in the leading up to the cell games while staying super saiyan 24/7 even sleeping or relaxing that's how cabba and caulifula and kale even do it during the tournament of power if you think about it
Ian R. Nava Huber That was always my takeaway from it. As stated, Cabba is a type of Saiyan we really haven’t seen before. More level-headed, analytical and probably introspective. Not unlike Gohan, but without the rage issues. Anger just isn’t his natural state. He broke the process down to it’s essentials in a way that worked for him. And since he was the gateway for teaching Caulifla and Kale about the process, that’s what they felt, too. That said, though, elements of the original, emotionally driven SSJ transformation were kept with Kale. She only seems to reach her Berserker state through anger and reaches her more ‘conventional’ SSJ state through more positive emotions like determination and love. Which makes sense given the general theme of the U6 Saiyans being sorta counterparts to the Saiyans we’re used to with Cabba being paired with Vegeta and Caulifla with Goku as mentors. Kale would benefit from the same sort of mentorship through Gohan as he had many of the same struggles as well (but the show really hasn’t explored that, unfortunately).
that would make sense to control the power, even to regain it without having to be angry in rage again (aka for Cabba). But for someone who haven't reach the form yet, who have never experience the rage etc. How can Califla turn on the "switch/tingle" to ssj, if she doesn't even have it yet? that's what is so stupid to me. But yeah ok, lets just say the have evolve more than U7, making the first female ssj transformation a silly tingle power up, sell toys and move on. *sigh* disappointing.
10:55 If it was unique to them then why did goku say "Oh i never thought of it like that" . I thought that comment from goku meant that he never realized that that was how it felt.
potaro retcon: it's been pointed out elsewhere that with how it was treated originally (e.g. goku shouldn't transform into super saiyan because then his lifespan would be shortened when he fused) it made sense that it was permanent for everyone. with the retcon old kai should've known better than to make goku think it was permanent
I hate the Retcon because the whole emotional throughline of Goku and Vegeta fusing during the Buu saga is that it was a big choice for the two saiyans to give up their individuality and pride for the better of their families and friends. Now that it just lasts an hour, there's no reason for them not to want to fuse other than Vegeta being uncomfortable for 30 seconds. You can pull any excuse of how the show doesn't technically say the potara fusion lasts forever for mortals, that doesn't change how it ruins the emotional weight of any scene between Goku and Vegeta.
I think a good retcon is any thing with Broly, and Vegtios time limit. I think it makes Vegtio only slightly better than Gogeta. It always made me mad that Vegtio was just better in every way and no real explanation how in the show. And explains how Vegtio defuses in the Boo saga.
@@MasakoX which sucks I always like Gogeta as a stone cold butt kicker, who held nothing back like Fusion Reborn. But now there similar in personality which kinda ruins Gogeta for me
I actually prefer the potara being permanent. It kind of gave Vegito being better a sort of draw back. Become Vegito and be stronger, but be fused forever. Or, become Gogeta, be not quite as strong, but eventually unfuse. Fusion its self really just ruins the logic of the show. "the earth is going to be destroyed, how do we stop this guy, we aren't strong enough", fusion literally solves all of their problems. And it is just explained away by "Well i don't like fusion". At least if Potara was the only kind you run the chance of permanent fusion, and you have to some how have the earrings of a Kai. Also, I always like Gogeta better, especially his no nonsense Fusion Reborn version.
While I enjoyed seeing the Freeza Force in the flashback of the Broly movie, I'm a little disappointed that they just...look the same. Zarbon, Dodoria, the Ginyu Force look identical to how they would ~20r years in the future? It feels like wasted potential: we could've had Zarbon with a mullet and mustache, we could have had Ginyu in a different body or Recoome with long hair. Just a LIL something to show that things change over the years across more than just the characters we're actively paying attention to.
Worst retcon is the rules on the 1 Day Resurrection. Fortune Teller Baba plucked a bunch of evil people from the afterlife, they should have been purged in hell and even if they weren’t they wouldn’t have been granted a day’s reprieve on Earth... especially for entertainment. Grandpa Gohan was also resurrected for a day, despite him never being said to have saved the world, the minimum requirement for a 1 Day Resurrection (other than needing to save the universe). In terms of the Potara Earrings, even Elder Kai knew they were permanent for mortals as advises Goku not to transform before fusing as he would not be able to go back to his base in the fusion state. Implying that he had seen mortals using the Potara Earrings before. It’s also strange why he wouldn’t mention it was temporary.
i do agree that saiyans are oversaturated. we need another super namek to join the cast . as far as the OP retcons wishes , RoSaT, etc are just hallmarks the series as we know it, needs to retire. a spin-off or two separating itself from the original story /cast would help . otherwise its just goku and vegeta reaching new heights while everyone else is left behind . starting over with say the new super namek i mentioned doing his own thing (maybe in another universe?) might be fun or stay away from nameks and saiyans altogether and see the rise of the pride troopers? for those that don't know ,toriyama has made many other characters and stories outside of the DB franchise , but these are just one-shots and seeing how there isn't a sand land or cashman series makes me feel that the franchise is going to burn up and wither away . And that just doesn't feel good.
Another Potara related retcon, that came instantly, was the fact that Old Kai said that Potara can be used only once in life, but them he wants Goku and Vegeta to refuse immediately after they defuse. Maybe it's more of an inconsistency or a oversight.
Ssblue palette swap, super power levels/scaling, ssrage, potara, dragonball 0 redoing gokus backstory, tingly back, goku black arc ending, future trunks blue hair, gt, dragonballs,
I wish that characters from Original DragonBall made more of a resurgence... like × Suno × Eighter × Dr. Flap × Inoshikacho (I think I spelled right) × LAUNCH
Suno and Eighter get a little acknowledgment of existing, although i suppose it's not much better than seeing ghostly memories of Launch during those "All the old friends" appearing on screen.
You can Dr. Flap work with Bulma at Capsule Corporation definitely new inventions and technologies to help the Dragon Team in their battles and adventures!
No offence to you, but I don't see why you included Dragon Ball GT, as a whole, in this video. The fact this series exists dosen't change our perception of the continuity of Z or the original Dragon Ball.
I think it would be possible to get rid of the tingly back thing and fix the fan backlash. Just have Kale ask Cabba and Kalifla about it during training. Cabba could say that he didn't know how else to explain it and that he knows he didn't do it well, and Kalifla could say that she went along with Cabba's explanation as a joke.
12:25 i still hope we can get things likes the shadow dragons. just let the super dragon balls get corrupted and cause shadow dragons that even zeno cannot erase
Wouldn't that be a bit overkill? Goku isn't supposed to surpass beerus and you're wanting to introduce villains that the beings stronger than beerus can't defeat?
Maybe have each SDB make up a part of Zalama’s personality and dende is trying to make his own original set of dragon balls for his own growth of abilities of guardian but it goes wrong and it ends up generating those dragons, since they each make a part of zalama each have a urge to be one (the prime) and each are powerful due to the SDB powers being limitless, each dragon comes from a different SDB and seek the newly made dragon balls on earth hoping to gain them to attain dominance over the others, Earth is in the cross fire with some of the dragons not being as carful as the others
About the scouter thing. From what I gained in the movie the scouters freiza gave were new models. In the very next scene you see King Vegeta with a type of scouter when reading Vegeta and Broly's power level. In the anime the past of the saiyans was always told by someone who didn't quite have the history down. Whose to say scouters on the head were the first models.
I would also like to see a video in the future on where Masakox discusses the future of Goten and Present Trunks such as what he would like to see be done with them in the future!
My hated recons are the beginning of the broly movie making minus bardock cannon instead of the bardock special. Toriyama making Gero the red ribbon army leader instead of Commander Red, why make Gero the leader when he wasn't thought up at the time. Goten and trunks ages don't matter, they still look like kids. Future trunks in the Future special and kid Trunks in super. Super kid trunks should be looking like future trunks before Future gohans death/SSJ Porunga made to be no limitations, I think what should of happened was Dende wished the earths dragon model to namek and then Dende would use the DBs to bring back earth and the people, then Porunga would have a spare wish. The time chamber being in the cell saga now when it could of been used against the Android's or the saiyans with the Earthlings Also I don't know if this a recon but I hate this moment Goku using the Zeno button to call Future Zeno to stop Zamasu and erasing Trunkses timeline. Seriously it kinda made the Goku black arc, and Trunkses character arc in the Android/cell saga.
Huh, I never really considered the fact that trunks was a pre-teen when he fought the androids with Future Gohan, and now that Gohan is a full on adult, and probably older than Future Gohan, he still looks 10. I really do wish Goten and Trunks would age, super didn't really change Trunks much visually or personality wise and Goten acts even younger than Z. A show about Trunks, Goten, and Pan would be much more interesting. Also, Gero is the red ribbon army leader? I thought he was just some scientist guy in the red ribbon army. Yeah, the hyperbolic time chamber is really one of those things that screws everything up. It supposedly has always been around, so why wouldn't they have used it from dragon ball to the cell saga when the earth was in danger and they had to cram train? And, while not a retcon, fusion existing really screws up everything. Saying that at almost anytime the heroes have a way to easily double their power when they need to, but refuse to when earth is in danger just because "they dont want to fuse". It is a similar issue to how super saiyan made the writers write themselves into a corner. If only a super saiyan could beat an enemy, then any non-super saiyan is useless. Especially as the power gap widened. As for the Zeno button, not only did it make everything that happened in Super pointless, it made Trunks stopping the androids and cell pointless.
I seem to recall Dragon Ball Multiverse came up with an explanation for Vegito's defusion: the Kais that were absorbed by Buu way back when Bibidi was around (South Supreme and Grant Supreme Kais) were still there in some way and were able to sense that there were mortals using the Potara Fusion and it was them that undid it, being unaware of the circumstances. It was an interesting idea. Back when they had those.
With the scouter parts, I'm afraid I have to disagree. The "gifts" from the Cold Force were UPGRADES to the current technology that the saiyans used. Frieza did state in the movie that they would "find these FAR more better than the rudish you're currently using"
Ok, a few things: 1: About the "tingly back" thing; if you think about it, Caulifla was the only one to transform in this way. The other two Universe 6 Saiyans transformed the normal way. Not only that, but Caulifla also figured out Super Saiyan 2 without much effort. Maybe this is something unique to her. Maybe she's some kind of transformation genius, and just needed a push in the right direction. It's posable she could've gone SS3, during the ToP, had she gotten a better look at it 2: Future Trunks, in the Goku Black arc, was not a retcon. (aside from his looks) If you don't like where he and Mai ended up, that's fine, but that doesn't make it a retcon. Unless we're including Time Patrol Trunks in this discussion, in which, fair enough, but if we're talking specifically Trunks from the Cell saga, then no. Super doesn't change anything about who he was or what he did during DBZ, so it's not a retcon. 3: In the same vain, GT isn't a retcon. You could say it's a reboot, but even that's a bit of a stretch. It's a continuation of the Dragon Ball story, from the team who made the anime, not long after the manga ended. It's a sequel. An ill-advised, and poorly thought out sequel, but a sequel nonetheless. I'd argue Super is more of a retcon. Super takes place between the Buu saga and the end of Z, was made 20 years after Z ended, and not only contradicts things that happen in GT, but also a few things that are said in the end of Z
New Broly screamed just as much. Classic Broly was like a sadistic Hulk, while Canon Broly is like what most people incorrectly thought Broly was (timid to berserker)
Well for the Scouters it can easily be said that the Saiyans still brought them to the Cold force, but the Cold force scientist were able to make improvements to its capabilities, seeing as the Saiyans weren't the most technological group in the universe. This would actually make the scene in the Broly movie make more sense as the Saiyans had probably been receiving Scouter upgrades for a while already and so the credit for Scouters was being shifted away from them.
in the anime it is mentioned king vegeta was the one who lead the war against the tuffles we always assumed it was vegeta's father, but the broly revealed our vegeta is prince vegeta the fourth so you could have the first king vegeta doing the war against the tuffles and bringing things to the cold force
Not to mention I doubt King Cold or Frieza would give credit to the Tuffles for the scouters. Either because they'd be too proud to admit they stole the technology, or because they just wouldn't care enough to give them credit, and really who is going to correct them?
Seems like the video could use a little CZcams Poll so we could also weigh in on whether we like, dislike, or are neutral with respect to the retcons. Your minority views may not be that rare... I actually suspect the raging fanboys are exaggerated in numbers. ;)
I don't mind the Potora with the limit. Mainly because the explanation we got was a guess rather than a clear answer. (In the manga it was a guess by Goku). I mean also they would just use the Dragonballs to unfuse anyway if the permanent status was still around.
I liked the "tingly back" thing, mostly because I saw it as a way that the power was initially harnessed but beyond Goku's ability to understand it or utilize it. It eventually coalesced there anyways. His anger was the drive that forced him to focus his power there. Just, knowing Goku, he couldn't describe it or even realize it that way. Everyone who ever reached Super Saiyan just eventually either did the same thing, or (Goten and Trunks), realized that "hey, focusing our power here does this neat trick!"
I would be less angered by the potara retcon and just treat it as new information, had it not been for Old Kai in Z explicitly stating that it was permanent to ANYONE. Well he didn't say anyone, but Goku asked how long it lasted and he smeared and said "that's the genious part, it's permanent". Like Masako said, that fact, was what added weight to the story and made it a tough decision.
Thank you for watching! Please be sure to share, watch and enjoy the video as well as take care of yourself.
MasakoX I wish that potara never had a time limit
@@omnisystem6030 Same here mate, Vegito was so cool in DBZ. And then Super just had to retcon Potara fusion.
MasakoX hello there
Masako, I have a suggestion for your whatifs in the future and how you can make them a bit more enjoyable
could you provide timestamps to skip the recaps at the start of each whatif?
So I don't know if this is in the works and I'm just out of the loop but since your what-ifs have been so intriguing, I was wondering if you would ever consider making your own sequel to dragon Ball z. see where you would have taken the story instead of the way super and GT took it.
Vegito's small face reaction in the thumbnail is basically a mood
Right?? It sums up a lot of these choices.
@@MasakoX hi masakox!!!(can you do a video on the jump crossovers like cross epoch,j-stars,the ova specials & jump super/ultimate stars?:3)
Of course the Potara fusion should be stronger than the dance fusion technique. One requires divine relics another is created through a dance. Making the Potara fusion be temporary instead of permanent just makes Potara be a complete rip-off of the fusion technique instead of its own unique thing.
With you there.
True.
Fax
yeah I think that to the potara was made by a higher rank of kai while the fusion dance was made by king kai
The potara retcon still kinda bothers me to this day.
Mainly because it begs the question: what's the point of the fusion dance now?
>Easier to do
>Double the dance's time limit
>And (as of recent) around the same strength as the dance anyway.
Why would you EVER want to use the dance over potara if the opportunity presents itself?
Side note: Not to mention it makes Elder Kai rather look incompetent for not knowing about all this despite being so confident about his knowledge.
Potara has a disadvantage of if you use too much power, the time limit decreases
@@Pokey0220 Yup, that puts it below fusion dance in my book (plus the really cool metamoran outfit)
@@Pokey0220 the same thing that happened to Gotenks then. Unless they've retconned the dance as well.
@@Pokey0220 same with the fusion dance as seen with Gotenks and Gogeta in Gt
I think you got it backwards, the point of the Fusion Dance Technique is availability. Potara Fusion as the name implies requires a divine relic worn only by gods. Now that both fusions are essentially the same-- what's the point of the Potara fusion?
"A movie character being brought into the maine timeline for the first time"
Garlic Jr.: am I a joke to you?!
The entire Dragonball fandom: yes.
Was he even Canon?
@@johnathanholmes1297 he appeared in the show so... debatable
@@autumbreeze1129
No. That was a rhetorical question.
I mean his movie was before Raditz came, and I do like the little arc as well. Except Maron. Imagine if Vegeta randomly came back during all of that.
Rest in immortal 🅱️eace garlic Jr.
Your an all star in are hearts, but not in reality
>Calls everyone out for having a Saiyan OC
>Doesn't forget to include himself
Well played Masako. XD
MasakoX is a very humble man
Shame on you! Mine is a Namekian because they are such an underused race
But how many of those saiyan OCs use the cliche "Survive the destruction of Planet Vegeta" plot?
@@CornaOnTheCob Plot twist: mine doesn't. XD
I had an OC who was just an alien from an icy planet with poisonous (to most races) water.
I think the reason most of these are so galling is because they remove the stakes/tension previously establish in the story.
Permanent fusion, Rage and loss to become Super Saiyan, the Dragonball limitations, Hyperbolic time chamber; all fixed with hand-waves because it would take to long to seriously solve the problem at hand.
That's Toriyama for you.
Remember why he gave the characters flight to begin with? Because he was tired of drawing them traveling everywhere. It's also why Goku can teleport now. And why SSJ has golden hair, because he doesn't want to shade in the black.
The Potara time limit retcon is incredibly infuriating to me. Mostly cause it was needless. They specifically pointed out earlier in Super that you can just use the Dragon Balls to unfuse yourself, with Kibitokai unfusing. Done. Vegito should just use the Dragon Balls. No time limit retcon needed.
time limit was needed so that vegito just not massacred zamasu and ended the arc that way
@@RaphielShiraha64That's what should've happened tho! Trunks' Spirit Sword made absolutely no sense. It came out of nowhere, and he shouldn't have been able to "defeat" someone that *Vegito Blue* couldn't.
I was fine with the reason behind Potara defusion. Made a lot more sense than “ooooooh Buu magic.”
Yeah that's why I'm OK with it, myself.
Yeah i don't mind. But i fo like someone's else's idea if the potara break for mortals it ends the fusion. Yeah doesn't explain the buu magic but hey it's better than turning the potaras into fusion dance clone
To be honest, the whole one hour thing in the potara fusion now makes the debate between the dance and earrings moot, especially when now both fusions are said to be the same in multiplying both users power levels. I loved that potara fusion was a more effective multiplier at the time because of that "you'll be stuck forever" catch they had, which balanced both fusion methods perfectly. Would you rather have a weaker fusion that lasts 30 minutes or a stronger fusion that is permanent? Ya know?
My problem with it, is that now the excuse of "he defused cuz he uses X form for too long" is now available for writers to apply anywhen
I kind of have a problem with it cuz Buu damn near exterminated all the kais I’m comfortable with Buu’s magic canceling the potara earrings ngl I feel as if super is a cheap cash grab
If i can throw my hat in for the Worst Retcon, it’d be “Piccolo Daimou/Picolo Jr. were never demons.”
It just feels short-sighted. If the Nameless Namekian can train to become Kami, and have knowledge about heavenly being like Yemma and King Kai, who’s to say that Piccolo Daimou can’t have connections to the Demon Realm?
Yes, the only “true” heavenly beings, the ones that are born the way they are, are the Kai and the Angels, and the “actual” demons, the Makai, are born the way they are. But again, regular people can train to become Kami, Kai Attendants (as shown with Future Trunks in the Super Manga), and even G.o.D.s.
Give Piccolo a taste of that Demon Energy. Let there be actual peril when Piccolo tells Gohan he’s going to turn him into Mazoku. Let the people Gohan ends be unable to make their way to the afterlife, as Kami stated should’ve been the fate of Raditz.
Don’t be so limiting.
Not gonna lie, that would've been amazing
That makes me wonder if there's god KI which seems to be holy in nature would there also be demonic god KI?
@@DrakeKnight99 In Xenoverse 1, the main villain is " *Demon God* Demigra."
With Piccolo Daimao being a flesh and blood manifestation of the Nameless Namekians negativity and malevolence, I always saw King Piccolo as a Demon of Mortal Origin. Especially since the Mafuba used to contain demonic beings sealed King Piccolo.
@@nicwoolfe3885 In Xenoverse 4 they'll reveal he was actually just a random alien from a different universe. ;)
MasakoX as Piccolo: I liked it better when I was a demon.
Nail in his head: And I liked it better when I had proper bladder control, nobodies perfect.
Retcon... Nail wasnt in his head when he said that, he was bloody and dying on the ground next to him.
I must be the only one to not mind the Caulifla "tingle on my back." You think fans figure out that there is tailbone.
I don't mind either. It's just an evolutionary difference between U6 and U7 Saiyans.
I don't mind it either plus trunks and goten got ssj for free basically and no one seems to mind
@@acecujoh well vegeta minded
@@vickywachen3547 For good reason.
I love Kale and Caulifla too much to be bothered by it.
Bardock: The Father of Goku being retconned still saddens me.
I don't acknowledge the new origins, to me, it NEVER HAPPENED.
Steve Wyrick You either take the new origins and Get good Broly, Or deny the new origins and keep being outdated
Rikki Scott Old Broly lacked any type of substance and was just Something that only really deserves to be used once, it’s a fun distraction but not a character
@Rikki Scott I like both. One was a force of nature; the other was a character.
It was never retcon, in the first place because Toriyama stated Bardock was Never Strong Enough to be even considered a middle-class man. he was only strong for a low-class Saiyan..
“These days anyone can become a super saiyan.”
*proceeds to show pictures of Dio’s second form*
I would argue that is Dio's third form.
*dio frieza: third form*
That got me rolling.
@@joshuahughes5647 Really, it’s just him re-achieving his first form.
@@demi-femme4821 eh, its more like him unlocking more of his vampire powers in jonathan's body, which should make him stronger than his first form due to jonathan being naturally stronger than dio.
I haaaaaaaaaaaaaate what Super did to Potara Fusion. The fact that it was permanent was the ONE THING that made it distinct from the Metamoran Fusion that came before it. It was more powerful, but it being permanent made using it come at a high price. The loss of one's individuality. Of course, the writers didn't want to have Goku and Vegeta stuck that way, and so they decided to retcon how Potara Fusion worked. But you know what else they could have done? Use the Dragon Balls to wish themselves separate again. It's really not that hard. Heck, they already did this with the Supreme Kai and Kibito, so why would they come up with this stupid rule about Potara only being permanent for gods?
Eh. Its not like it was ever proven to be permanent for mortals anyway. Blame toriyama for unfusing them in the buu arc
@@TheSwooj Its still a retcon, since it was made a big deal that it was permanent
10:18 So DIO is a Super Saiyan, meaning if he obtains heaven, he is a Super Saiyan God.
Waiting for this comment
Then Heaven Ascension DIO from EOHs' canon (as in copyright free sorta canon) name is Super Sayan God DIO?
DIO OVER HEAVEN !!!
Dio literally means god in italian so yeah
*explosion*
You were expecting a super sayain but it was I, DIO!!!!
I'd love to see Dio vs Freeza
@@empireempire3545 Freeza stomps because he is aware of time stop like Guldo
Vince Lumontad I reckon DIO would do what he did to Kakyoin
Freezer vs Dio Over Heaven
Jalapeño5000 The boss would that even hurt frieza
Im curious to your thoughts on the whole "Sensu Beans" retcon. I could have sworn they went from just giving you a stamina/energy boost like eating a full meal when you were fatigued in classic Dragon Ball to just becoming a first aid bean in Z.
legit nowadays a character could lose all their limits and half their skull and a senzu bean would make them a okay.
Really, senzu beans and the time chamber are just things to speed the plot along now.
To me the worst retcon is Dragon Ball Minus.
The Bardock special was perfect & didn't need to be fixed.
And the best Retcon was DBS Broly.
I love the fact they did my boy right.
With Fused Zamasu being a fusion of two literal GODS, you’d think they could’ve thought of something Zamasu could use to unfuse Vegito.
Honestly, I sorta feel like maybe the Piccolo "retcon" might be one of the few things Toriyama planned in advance. I mean, he's a bald green dude with antennae and pointy ears, that's one of the most generic alien archetypes around. It's a reveal that really shouldn't have come as all that big a surprise to anyone.
Piccolo was a 'happy accident'. He was originally the ego of Kami's evil half, King Piccolo so in a sense was the Nameless Namekian's inner demon.
I'm still sad about Trunks not staying in the Super timeline, instead of going to an universe with his duplicate.
So many opportunities lost... Imagine Trunks at ToP
Yeah but then there would be two Trunks
@@veruskatorres9276 And?
@@LowResCatExplosion it would be weird
@@veruskatorres9276 Well there's enough of an age difference I doubt anyone would be confusing the two, doubly so now that Future Trunks has blue hair now
I'd rather they actually develop kid trunks instead of replacing him with his future self
I think to this day that Toriyama should have worked harder to keep the humans on a more even keel. I think he could have spent more time thinking less linearly and more laterally instead of just watching numbers get bigger.
If only he just had humans be more naturally resilient with energy use than saiyans so Krillin, Tien, and Yamcha could learn kaioken and keep up better
@@LowResCatExplosion in the 3 years the humans could've learned kaioken as it was basically useless to goku, and improved upon it, maybe even using 50x, essentially super saiyan for humans.
The worst retcon by far had to be in Super that a mortal potara fusion had a time limit, and as a result totally buried SSB Vegito. You would think Elder Kai would've known that and warned Goku in DBZ??
"They cheapened Super Saiyan!!!"......remember when Trunks and Gotens as toddlers joked about how they could just 'turn blonde'
I didn't know Super Saiyan's can be inherited.
I have two small gripes with the video:
1. I don't think GT is a retcon to the series. It was just a new adventure that tried to be a new Dragon Ball.
2. Goku being a Saiyan isn't too far out of question as several characters mentioned that he was abnormal.
Otherwise it's a great video that I agree with
2. To be fair, the King of Earth is a dogman, so it's not 'that' abnormal, lol.
@Meem Ain In Tien's defense, he is still training to catch up to Goku. Who's to say he won't?
The saiyan reveal actually kinda made a bit of sense for the Sun Wukong comnection. He did come from a tribe of monkey people who fought and lived in mountains while Wukong went off on his journey to come back later and get super angry and transform into an angry monstrous form iirc.
@@ParadiseDB7 yeah, animal people are just part of Dragonball
I remember in a very early DB episode Bulma asks goku if he is a alien.
Honestly the one hour Fusion time never bothered me honestly. Regardless if it was permanent or not Toriyama could not have Goku and Vegeta fused forever. Eventually he had to split them somehow. Now what is Stupid is the whole “the more energy used the shorter the fusion time” that is stupid in both GT and in Super. What I always liked about Vegito is that he knows he knows how strong he is. He knows how quick he can destroy you. But knowing how much time he has he could afford making a fool out of his foes. Unlike Gogeta who a only has 30 minutes and can’t afford to do that. The energy time drain throws all that out the window.
JRC SMASH The energy thing was a problem in Z too not just GT and super. Remember gotenks? Not to mention that I highly doubt they fought Buu for an hour.
Rikki Scott You just said why. That and they won’t always have the potara on hand. Dance still has the risk of messing up.
They already had written a way out of Potara when Shin and Kibito defused.
@Rikki Scott Because they won't always have a Kai on hand to borrow their Potara. Yes, the Fusion Dance has a shorter time limit, but it's always readily available, and therefore more convenient to use.
Booo!
Dragon Ball Super sucks!
I was a good fan of the franchise until DBS came
"Everyone's getting Super Sayian these days" (Shows a pic of Dio after drinking Joseph's Blood)
I see what you did there Masako.
I feel like all the retcons sometimes divide the fan base more than dub vs sub, or funimation ost vs Japanese ost. All the retcon constantly cheapen things and end up drastically changing meanings and interruptations for new generation of fans. Individual fans end up picking and choosing where they want dragonball to starts and end.
I don't mind the change of Bardock having future site to having a feeling about Frieza. Mostly because I at least got the feeling he had done similar thing to other planets himself.
When it comes to the GT Universe... I'm actually scared when it comes to New Namek.
Sure, the Namekian balls haven't been exposed to a massive surge of negative energy from the opening of the depths of hell... but they do get used FAR MORE than the Earth Dragonballs. Just the thought of how much negative energy must be swelling up within them chills me to the bone.
Unless Dende conveyed to his people what happened on Earth, thus making them realize they'll need to wait over about a thousand years before it's safe again, Goku's efforts to stop the Shadow Dragons might very well have been for nothing, made all the worse since he's now in another dimension with Shenron, so can't help should it happen again
Except for the implication that Earth's dragon balls are not the same as New Namek's. If it was Dende's dragon balls that resulted in the Shadow Dragons, we would have already seen the new namek edition. Instead, it's Kami's dragon balls that are the problem (as at least one of the shadow dragons is a result of a dragon ball era wish). Keep in mind that the existence of the black star balls is only because Kami split from his evil half. Who is to say that said darkness didn't infect the dragonballs in some manner?
Realistically, all we have to indicate that this issue was present in other dragonballs is an off-hand comment by Mr. Popo about another planet that was destroyed by an evil dragon who proceeded to take out an entire galaxy. This is sort of counterbalanced by the apparent complete ignorance of the kais and other long-lived beings as to the dangers of the dragon balls. You'd think they would know about this and would have said something. The closest you get to that is King Kai/Old Kai (can't remember if both or just one) complaining about abusing the dragon balls, but never says anything about actual consequences, being more upset by viewing them as 'cheating'.
To be perfectly blunt, the amount of stuff pulled out of rear that contradicts earlier information in the series as a whole is enough to make it impossible to tell what will stay canon and what won't.
The way I see it, the Namekian Dragon Balls might not be vulnerable to the same negative energy buildup because they are the "originals", whereas Kami's were an imperfect copy. If not that, the Namekian balls are also physically much large than the Earth ones, and so may simply have a higher capacity for storing negative energy.
The main issue I have with the Potara retcon is that it wastes the perfectly good setup from earlier in Super when Shin and Kibito used the Dragon Balls to de-fuse. Plus they then managed to blow through the fusion in ten minutes, meaning it was all a waste anyway.
As for Shin not knowing anything about Potara, he *already* didn't know anything about it in Z. Him continuing to know nothing has no impact on him as a character.
I dislike how Toriyama changed the Saiyan to a race of bloddy thirsty warriors who never care for anyone to a race who just were victims of Frieza and weren't not evil.
Because bad PR is ALWAYS true
Because bad PR is ALWAYS true
@Frizzurd The idea of an entire race being evil (or good for that matter) is pretty messed up if you think about it.
@Frizzurd Ikr.
That is why I liked about Goku and Piccolo.
Super just ruined Goku as a character in my opinion.
@Frizzurd Believable fiction requires verisimilitude. An entire race being objectively evil with no justification is only fine if you refuse to think about it.
Does Majin Buu needing to sleep throughout all of the Dragon Ball Super arcs count as retcon? Cause I hate it. They could've used his help, but he's always seen sleeping when the final antagonist shows up.
they could have just kept the potara earring thing not retconned and use Majin Buu as a "people splitting" magguffin.
have you read the moro arc he has been fighting
I personally disagree with you in the potara fusion retcon. I feel like adding in a time limit just made it less of a last resort thing, now it’s basically just a longer fusion dance. If it had been a forever thing, Goku and Vegeta wouldn’t use the potara unless it was ABSOLUTELY necessary. Yes its not like we’ll see the cast fuse much but if it were something that Goku and Vegeta only stuck to as a last resort then that can make the situation a lot more drastic, with the only way of defusing being some form of magic or the Dragon Balls whom even then may not be powerful enough to do so
I personally don't mind this change but I am aware that it does make fusion a little less exciting; it's an unfortunate after effect.
MasakoX I can respect your opinion, everyone has their own ways of seeing such a change. Also not gonna lie, you responding to me made my day.
Preach it, man! I don't know what else to say than I fully agree.
Gianni Perez eh. Its not like it was ever shown to be permanent for mortals anyway
TheMightySwooj That’s true, but in my opinion, I feel like it would’ve been better in terms of the narrative to keep it a permanent thing. But that’s honestly just me, I see this as Toei acting too safe here as having consequences for actions are heavy things for a story. If you essentially remove what could have been a big consequences, it requires more assurance, of course one of the reasons Toei didn’t keep it is because Vegito being perm would be too OP which makes sense but had they’ve used a better excuse to have them defuse such as “Demon Magic or dark magic can disturb the magic that the potara uses to keep the users fuse” then at least that’s acceptable cause a majority of us already believed it and it feels like a much more viable excuse because it makes sense. We don’t know a lot about Buu, his power is ultimately untapped and whatever he truly is aside from being a Majin is honestly unknown. There is viable reasoning that whatever allowed Buu to be existent is something that we have no real clue who he actually is feels more logical. It gives more depth to Buu as to what he actually is while also giving a logical statement as to why Potaras defuse at times. Though this is very opinionated and I can see why it has been seen as not permanent at all, after all this really isn’t technically a retcon (while also being one if you think about it) as Elder Kai simply gave off some misinformation that was later correctly revealed by Gowazu.
(Long post incoming. TL; DR at the bottom)
Honestly, I feel that the back tingling was like the midiclorians of Dragon Ball. I wish they had kept the required rage aspect to unlock SSJ, even if you could access it at will and all other forms afterwards the second time onwards. Would have actually given a REALLY good explanation and characterization for universe 6's Saiyans if a little(?) change at the Cabba vs Vegeta fight had been made: Cabba not only turns SSJ1, but as Vegeta continues to test him (instead of going SSB right off the edge and knocking him out), he turns SSJ2 and pushes Vegeta to do the same, and maybe even go SSJ3 before Vegeta is finally forced to go Blue and take him out.
While this feels initially like cheapening further the Super Saiyan, a la Trunks & Goten, it actually makes sense, and specially if you look at the way training works IRL:
a) Vegeta's method of training was "train till you can't move, then train more", and likely was the case for the rest of the U7 Saiyans. This is not the most productive way to get stronger and is very dangerous. By contrast, U6 Saiyans lived more peaceful lives but now worked as universal police. They still had reasons to train but now properly rested and ate. Just like comparing a hermit hunter who must push himself everyday to get food and stay alive to a professional athlete with routines, food and rest, U6 Saiyans would have the edge not because of training more, but because of training better. *BUT*,
b) The SSJ transformation requiring an emotional trigger would help explain why the SSJ concept is foreign to U6: more peaceful lives mean that there are fewer tragedies, and in those cases there are also better support systems to help coup with them. Cabba facing an adversary that just went from roughly his equal to 50 times stronger than him and with no one to bail him out or help would have probably make him the most stressed Saiyan in U6's history, thus putting all the pieces in place to finally reach that level.
This would mean that U6's Saiyans had long reached the potential to go SSJ and some gifted individuals like Cabba (the ace of the universal police) could already access the higher forms like SSJ2 and SSJ3, but not the god forms for obvious reasons. What they lacked was that trigger that they were missing in their lives of comfort. Like a soldier that has gone through the Boot Camp and simulations but never been in an actual battle, they had the strength but not the right state of mind. Cabba being "baptized" by Vegeta would have make so much sense. Instead, we got ourselves wondering why no Saiyan in U6's history ever asked "What I make my back tingle?"
Of course there are plotholes like Zenkai boost and mastered SSJ, but I'll leave to others to discuss.
TL; DR: SSJ requiring emotional trigger explains why U6 saiyans were stronger but did not get it bc they lived in comfort and never experienced a situation to trigger it. They had the potential but never used it.
The tingles aren't midichlorians, S-cells are.
@Frizzurd And Caulifla took alone standing Saiyan childs in like Kale and gave them a home which is pretty nice
Yeah, at least you could reason that since Goku and Vegeta did their first SSJ transformations before siring Goten and Trunks there might've been some weird epigenetic thing going on. The tingles just seem like a copout.
The whole tingly back thing is like what happens when someone explains a magic trick, it makes the trick lose its luster.
“Fans cried out: THIS JUST CHEAPENS SUPER SAIYANS AND THE ANGUISH GOKU AND GOHAN WENT THROUGH”
Uhhhhh, did you forget the part in Z where little Trunks shows off how easy it is to go SS and Vegeta grumbles “what is this? A super saiyan bargain sale?”
We’ve been through this before, but there were many ppl who watched Super and not Z, so they wouldn’t know that
For me it's different. When Kid Trunks went Super Saiyan I chalked it up to: Well if Future Trunks did it would it make any sense that Present Trunks can't? Should they have went Super Saiyan so young? Probably not, but let's not act like Super Saiyan wasn't on it's way out. We got Super Saiyan 2 in the last saga and was going to get Super Saiyan 3 in the Buu saga. Giving Trunks and Goten Super Saiyan so early was so they don't get shafted when they had to face Majin Buu.
Makes you wonder what vein-popping rage Goten and Trunks would've had to undergo if anger was the only key. Surely bog-standard toddler tantrums didn't trigger it, and there's never any explicit trauma.
@@NieroshaiTheSable Well it was 7 years of peace so I have no idea what could've caused the transformation
The reason for the Tournament of Power was retconned. Twice. And both times it felt like a last-minute addition to make Goku look less like a psychopath.
Speaking of which; Stupid Super Goku. Toriyama claims that he was always like that, and to some extent he's right. Specifically, when we meet Goku in Chapter 1 he's like that, but he grows as a person throughout the years. I mean, he's stopped with the pat-pat, for one.
Also: S-Cells. Now, this is an out of universe explanation so you can ignore it if you want to, but it's still a dumb explanation for why later Saiyans don't have tails and achieve Super Saiyan more easily. Not everything needs an explanation, and this is exactly why.
I'm glad to finally see someone who agrees with me about the ToP thing!
As for S-cells, I don't mind the concept *existing*, per se, but I don't like the explanation behind why they occur in higher numbers; if it were something like "they're more plentiful the more 'potent' your ki is" or something like that it'd be fine, but I don't like that they increase as their host/owner/whathaveyou is more "gentle". If that were the case Goten would be mopping the floor with Vegeta on the reg.
Agreed 100% I'm so sick of people acting like the whole ToP thing was some grand plan all along rather than the last minute BS addition it actually is. As for Saiyan Midi-Chorlians, hopefully they're forgotten quickly just like Midi-Cholrians in Star Wars were.
When ever I did the whole pretend to go super saiyan thing, my back was the part I flexed the most. I figured that's where they got it from so I never minded it.
To be fair the back, or more specifically the spine, is what tails grow out of and the Saiyan tail has always been linked to their power. Also when the transformation is pushed to it's ultimate limits at Super Saiyan three the user gets long hair that covers their back.
Cabba: Is better at explaining things than goku and vegeta
Fans: REEEEEEE
REEEEEEEEEE
Changing Potara sure makes the Supreme Kai look dumb.
Masakox I have to say you're my favorite Dragon ball CZcamsr your'e Videos are enjoyble and thoughtfull aswell as your'e What ifs and you always explain you're opinions very well.
Thank you so much. I shall do my best to keep it up!
I have to be honest, I'm not so much bothered by the Vegito retcon as much as I feel he was thrown into the Black arc purely as fanservice.
IMO, what they should have done is kept him a one-off, then just use the Dragonballs to unfuse them later, much like what they did with the Supreme Kai and Kibito. Why create another DEM, when you've got a perfectly good one already?
Likewise with the dance, you could incorperate variations that allowed up to five people to combine (like Fusions). That way you could create many different combinations, and let other characters get in on the act.
So while one might give more power, the other has more potential.
I think it's feels like fan service because toyo added him in and not toriyamma
@@ZeothTheHedgehog wtf?
There's nothing suggesting toyotaro added vegetto in the black arc, especially since he's only writing and drawing the manga.
@@projekttaku1 Tori had interview where he stated he didn't plan for vegito to show up after the Buu Saga, and Tory was the one who brought the idea up and they decided to go through with it.
@@ZeothTheHedgehog please show me the interview, cause that seems extremely unlikely.
If toyotaro wanted to bring back vegetto, why would the anime do it first?
If it was toyotaro's idea vegetto would only appear in the manga of dbs, not the anime.
I actually didn't know about the scouters, I feel like that does cheapen the Saiyans a bit.
Who invented the scouters aren't entirely a retcon, since Saiyan/Tuffle war was anime exclusive filler. Granted it was filler based on note Toriyama gave the anime staff, but that still leaves quite a bit of wiggle room in regards to how "canon" it ever was.
Especially since the same story that established all of those details, also still went with the notion of the Saiyans being wiped out by a meteor (called by that planets Kami no less), rather than by Frieza. So the facts have long been tenuous at best.
Besides, while the new Broly movie shows Frieza giving the saiyans new scouters, he also specifically mentions them being an improvement over the scout-scopes the saiyans were already using. Since it's never clarified who invented the older scope style devices, it's entirely plausible to assume it was still the Tuffles and that by extension it's still the Saiyans who gave that tech to the Cold force, even if Frieza's scientists later streamlined the tech into the modern scouter design.
My personal problem with the Potara retcon, as I feel maybe the same with others, wasn't the new 1 hour time limit. My problem is that it had a time limit AND on top of that it got drained quickly from using Blue. Now this was annoying at the time, but it's something that I got over until recently when in the DBS Broly movie, Gogeta has a 30 minute time limit... yet he seems to last longer than Vegito in Blue. It doesn't make sense. Gotenks in *Super Saiyan 3* lasted about 5 minutes against Buu. Why does Gogeta in Blue seem to last just as long if not longer (if we're also including his base and SS forms as well)? It also then makes me think back to the Buu arc and while yes, the Vegito vs Buu fight lasted a long time, mostly because Vegito was toying with Buu, there's no way it lasted an hour given how fast these guys actually move when they're fighting *cough Tournament of Power cough*. Vegito also rarely used his full power against Buu, only really showing some force when Buu was about to literally tear the whole dimension up with his vice shout from being angry. Sooooo there's no way he used up all the power of the Potara.
I get it, you can just chalk it up to "story convenience" to explain most of these things, but it's still pretty dumb when you think about it. It makes Vegito seem like he wouldn't last as long in a fight against Gogeta even though it technically should still be slightly in Vegito's favor.
The potara may have been designed to avoid a corrupted kaioshin going to fusion powertrip and maybe threaten Zenoh's greater plans and designs.
The dance however, which was invented by mortals, may not have that limiter, allowing the fusion to reach a higher output.
However, IIRC the Gogeta SSJ4 fusion suffered from having Goku in a bad shape prior fusion. It made the fusion result suboptimal.
@@ThanatosZero ... A lot of this sounds head canon-y lol
@@DarkPaladinX77 Indeed. It is but a theory by rationalising the why things are the way they are.
What headcanon/theory do you have?
@@ThanatosZero I don't really have one, I just explained my thoughts on my original post, which most of it is pretty factual given it comes right from the series.
@@DarkPaladinX77 Super Saiyan 3 may be a inferior transformation in regards to stamina. On the other hand, Gotenks short time span as a SSJ3 may be the result of him not mastering the form. Both Goku and Vegeta had plenty of time to master their super saiyan blue forms, meaning that their fusion with it may be a lot more stable.
Thanks Masako! Part 2 please!
Another amazing video keep it up
I mean I have my own head canon that the Tuffles where the Sayians first planet conquering mission under king cold. As King cold was interested in the technology that the Tuffles possessed and it was a training exercise to the see how competent the Sayians where. After destroying them, Kikono and the cold force scientist got to work reverse engineering the technology. So the cold forces did create the technology but it was based on original Tuffle technology.
It actually would be a nice twist seeing how the saiyans would be used as tools for King Cold. I agree on that. That would show that saiyans are enslaved and it could be the reason why universe 6 is more evolved, because they didn't live under a tyrant which suppressed them unlike universe 7.
I appreciate what GT was trying to do and it had some fun elements. Super Saiyan 4 is still worlds better than Blue
Awesome video :') Cheers from Portugal
Cool vid! You should do a part 2👍
the ending of the buu saga where earth was destroyed and only good characters were revived being forgotten in Super = bad retcon
?
Because people like Barry are still around?
To be fair, everyone has the capacity for evil, so it would be impossible to revive only the good people. I mean, what does being "good" even mean? Is it anyone who has never committed a crime? Anyone who has never taken a life? People who aren't douches? It was way too vague a wish to begin with, so it was honestly best forgotten.
@@josephbriggs2257: Barry isn't even "evil", he's just a selfish jerk. Not to mention it's been a few years and so maybe he wasn't quite so bad when the wish was made, before ego and fame went to his head.
Banality of evil
Super’s retcons are mostly irritating but there are some that alright, but what they did to Trunks and the Universe 6 Sayians were the worst ones.
I also don’t like how they retconned the Bardock special but Gine is alright I guess.
It's strange because a lot of the time, Super would have a good callback to DB...a surreal series that's for sure.
I liked both Bardock: Father of Goku and how DBS: Broly did it. A combination of both would be nice.
The "Tingly Feeling in the Back" retcon is something a lot of people like to say cheapened Super Saiyan, but it was really just an explanation to it. If ki is something inside of the body that flows through it, then it has to be doing something in order to initiate the Super Saiyan transformation. Saying that it is concentrated in the back and brought to a boiling point makes sense, and if you look at the body language of the characters upon first transformation, there is some emphasis on the back most of the time. I actually would have liked this more if it happened in the Buu Saga and Gohan explained it that way to Goten, allowing him to go Super Saiyan, and then Goten tells Trunks and he can do it that way as well. It would have been a great explanation for that and even built Gohan a bit as a teacher while pissing off Vegeta as someone who couldn't get their son to that level. Would have added layers to the Buu saga if they did that. That's why I can't hate it.
If it was explained to a pet of the transformation, and not simply a way to achieve it, then it wouldn't be stupid. Simply getting rid of the rage aspect to it entirely is why it's rightfully hated.
@@SneakyHuntingHT When people experience emotions, especially in Dragon Ball, their body and ki move in specific ways. Goku and Vegeta would remember the feeling more than think about what their ki was doing at the time, so if they were doing that the whole time, they wouldn't know it. It's easy to say it was always the case that it happened this way. It doesn't deserve the hate since it doesn't remove the rage, it just explains what it means to get it from rage. Kale still transformed from rage, so it was never gone.
It's like when Gohan taught Videl to fly: an easy-to-understand layman's explanation of a chakra to someone who already intuitively feels ki.
MasakoX I'm your biggest Fan and If you're reading this I have a few questions to ask one them is that I Love your What if Videos my favorite one is (What if Cell Turned Good?) Keep up the good work!😁
Personally, I hate the tingly back retcon not because it doesn't make sense, but for what it does narratively. It means that Caulifla gets to skip what going Super Saiyan was supposed to mean, a culmination of heated emotions and narrative arcs. She doesn't earn it through hard work or emotional turmoil (to be honest, she doesn't really earn any of the power she gets), she gets to take a shortcut with no consequences and it robs her of the opportunity to have some interesting character growth or at least a chance to show she actually cares about anything that's going on.
Lunamor Rosa goten and trunks exist, super Saiyan has been a joke since the android saga.
@@Mothlover69 Yeah, and it was sort ofa problem when they did it too. Especially since they don't do anything anymore.
Do more of these!
It disturbed me as a kid that Gohan fusing with Goku would have ment Gohan was also married to his mom.
I recommended your video @MasakoX and voted it as Extremely Good, you're welcome.
11:33 the whole back thingly thing could easily be said to be a different way to achieve saiyan form, but a more "forced one". the anger makes the power flow more natural but with less control while the thingy back teks it under control but is less potent.
in fact one could say the optimized method to use the form is gain i through rage and then use the thingy back to learn how to put it under control until regulating the power becomes like muscle memory.
i think that's even how goku and gohan learned how to keep saiyan form 1 stable in the leading up to the cell games while staying super saiyan 24/7 even sleeping or relaxing
that's how cabba and caulifula and kale even do it during the tournament of power if you think about it
Ian R. Nava Huber That was always my takeaway from it. As stated, Cabba is a type of Saiyan we really haven’t seen before. More level-headed, analytical and probably introspective. Not unlike Gohan, but without the rage issues. Anger just isn’t his natural state. He broke the process down to it’s essentials in a way that worked for him. And since he was the gateway for teaching Caulifla and Kale about the process, that’s what they felt, too.
That said, though, elements of the original, emotionally driven SSJ transformation were kept with Kale. She only seems to reach her Berserker state through anger and reaches her more ‘conventional’ SSJ state through more positive emotions like determination and love. Which makes sense given the general theme of the U6 Saiyans being sorta counterparts to the Saiyans we’re used to with Cabba being paired with Vegeta and Caulifla with Goku as mentors. Kale would benefit from the same sort of mentorship through Gohan as he had many of the same struggles as well (but the show really hasn’t explored that, unfortunately).
that would make sense to control the power, even to regain it without having to be angry in rage again (aka for Cabba). But for someone who haven't reach the form yet, who have never experience the rage etc. How can Califla turn on the "switch/tingle" to ssj, if she doesn't even have it yet? that's what is so stupid to me. But yeah ok, lets just say the have evolve more than U7, making the first female ssj transformation a silly tingle power up, sell toys and move on. *sigh* disappointing.
10:55 If it was unique to them then why did goku say "Oh i never thought of it like that" . I thought that comment from goku meant that he never realized that that was how it felt.
potaro retcon: it's been pointed out elsewhere that with how it was treated originally (e.g. goku shouldn't transform into super saiyan because then his lifespan would be shortened when he fused) it made sense that it was permanent for everyone. with the retcon old kai should've known better than to make goku think it was permanent
I hate the Retcon because the whole emotional throughline of Goku and Vegeta fusing during the Buu saga is that it was a big choice for the two saiyans to give up their individuality and pride for the better of their families and friends. Now that it just lasts an hour, there's no reason for them not to want to fuse other than Vegeta being uncomfortable for 30 seconds.
You can pull any excuse of how the show doesn't technically say the potara fusion lasts forever for mortals, that doesn't change how it ruins the emotional weight of any scene between Goku and Vegeta.
*Tingley feeling in your back* peers out from the shadow, to which everyone shoos back in to the depths of the nonsense crater
I think a good retcon is any thing with Broly, and Vegtios time limit. I think it makes Vegtio only slightly better than Gogeta. It always made me mad that Vegtio was just better in every way and no real explanation how in the show. And explains how Vegtio defuses in the Boo saga.
Yeah, these days between Vegito and Gogeta, the time limit is the only difference. Their personalities are identical as well as their overall power.
@@MasakoX which sucks I always like Gogeta as a stone cold butt kicker, who held nothing back like Fusion Reborn. But now there similar in personality which kinda ruins Gogeta for me
I actually prefer the potara being permanent. It kind of gave Vegito being better a sort of draw back. Become Vegito and be stronger, but be fused forever. Or, become Gogeta, be not quite as strong, but eventually unfuse. Fusion its self really just ruins the logic of the show. "the earth is going to be destroyed, how do we stop this guy, we aren't strong enough", fusion literally solves all of their problems. And it is just explained away by "Well i don't like fusion". At least if Potara was the only kind you run the chance of permanent fusion, and you have to some how have the earrings of a Kai. Also, I always like Gogeta better, especially his no nonsense Fusion Reborn version.
@Rikki Scott how (?)
While I enjoyed seeing the Freeza Force in the flashback of the Broly movie, I'm a little disappointed that they just...look the same. Zarbon, Dodoria, the Ginyu Force look identical to how they would ~20r years in the future? It feels like wasted potential: we could've had Zarbon with a mullet and mustache, we could have had Ginyu in a different body or Recoome with long hair. Just a LIL something to show that things change over the years across more than just the characters we're actively paying attention to.
Worst retcon is the rules on the 1 Day Resurrection. Fortune Teller Baba plucked a bunch of evil people from the afterlife, they should have been purged in hell and even if they weren’t they wouldn’t have been granted a day’s reprieve on Earth... especially for entertainment. Grandpa Gohan was also resurrected for a day, despite him never being said to have saved the world, the minimum requirement for a 1 Day Resurrection (other than needing to save the universe).
In terms of the Potara Earrings, even Elder Kai knew they were permanent for mortals as advises Goku not to transform before fusing as he would not be able to go back to his base in the fusion state. Implying that he had seen mortals using the Potara Earrings before. It’s also strange why he wouldn’t mention it was temporary.
i do agree that saiyans are oversaturated. we need another super namek to join the cast . as far as the OP retcons wishes , RoSaT, etc are just hallmarks the series as we know it, needs to retire. a spin-off or two separating itself from the original story /cast would help . otherwise its just goku and vegeta reaching new heights while everyone else is left behind . starting over with say the new super namek i mentioned doing his own thing (maybe in another universe?) might be fun or stay away from nameks and saiyans altogether and see the rise of the pride troopers?
for those that don't know ,toriyama has made many other characters and stories outside of the DB franchise , but these are just one-shots and seeing how there isn't a sand land or cashman series makes me feel that the franchise is going to burn up and wither away . And that just doesn't feel good.
What if Future Vegeta survived in the Future Timeline?
I think he would keep going to fight the Android's and end up like F-Gohan
I’m completely with you on this one, Masako. Especially about the Room of Spirit and Time.
Another Potara related retcon, that came instantly, was the fact that Old Kai said that Potara can be used only once in life, but them he wants Goku and Vegeta to refuse immediately after they defuse.
Maybe it's more of an inconsistency or a oversight.
Ssblue palette swap, super power levels/scaling, ssrage, potara, dragonball 0 redoing gokus backstory, tingly back, goku black arc ending, future trunks blue hair, gt, dragonballs,
Those aren't retcons
Well let's start the video :>
I would love to see another video on this topic
Therapist: Tiny-faced Vegito is not real, he can’t hurt you.
Tiny-Faced Vegito:
I wish that characters from Original DragonBall made more of a resurgence... like
× Suno
× Eighter
× Dr. Flap
× Inoshikacho (I think I spelled right)
× LAUNCH
Suno and Eighter get a little acknowledgment of existing, although i suppose it's not much better than seeing ghostly memories of Launch during those "All the old friends" appearing on screen.
I definitely would like to see Suno,Eighter,Launch, Upa and Bora to become Z fighters in Dragonball!
You can Dr. Flap work with Bulma at Capsule Corporation definitely new inventions and technologies to help the Dragon Team in their battles and adventures!
I honestly want something stupid like Goku ending up with Suno
No offence to you, but I don't see why you included Dragon Ball GT, as a whole, in this video. The fact this series exists dosen't change our perception of the continuity of Z or the original Dragon Ball.
Yes make another retcon video, Mr. CZcamsr-Content Creator-VideoMan!
I think it would be possible to get rid of the tingly back thing and fix the fan backlash. Just have Kale ask Cabba and Kalifla about it during training. Cabba could say that he didn't know how else to explain it and that he knows he didn't do it well, and Kalifla could say that she went along with Cabba's explanation as a joke.
I thought the black star dragonballs were a good idea. Better than the super dragonballs.
12:25 i still hope we can get things likes the shadow dragons. just let the super dragon balls get corrupted and cause shadow dragons that even zeno cannot erase
Wouldn't that be a bit overkill? Goku isn't supposed to surpass beerus and you're wanting to introduce villains that the beings stronger than beerus can't defeat?
@@devastatheseeker9967 Well the shadow dragons are supposed to be THE final bosses so they would be the ones to end the series
@@ianr.navahuber2195 goku can't be stronger than xeno that's just stupid
Maybe have each SDB make up a part of Zalama’s personality and dende is trying to make his own original set of dragon balls for his own growth of abilities of guardian but it goes wrong and it ends up generating those dragons, since they each make a part of zalama each have a urge to be one (the prime) and each are powerful due to the SDB powers being limitless, each dragon comes from a different SDB and seek the newly made dragon balls on earth hoping to gain them to attain dominance over the others, Earth is in the cross fire with some of the dragons not being as carful as the others
@@devastatheseeker9967 i only said dragons would be inmune to erasing. that would be it
About the scouter thing. From what I gained in the movie the scouters freiza gave were new models. In the very next scene you see King Vegeta with a type of scouter when reading Vegeta and Broly's power level. In the anime the past of the saiyans was always told by someone who didn't quite have the history down. Whose to say scouters on the head were the first models.
I would also like to see a video in the future on where Masakox discusses the future of Goten and Present Trunks such as what he would like to see be done with them in the future!
The characters got too strong for the room of spirit and time it’s obvious
And yet Vegeta litterally used it before the Tournament of Power
SneakyHuntingHT yeah and what did he do to it
My hated recons are the beginning of the broly movie making minus bardock cannon instead of the bardock special.
Toriyama making Gero the red ribbon army leader instead of Commander Red, why make Gero the leader when he wasn't thought up at the time.
Goten and trunks ages don't matter, they still look like kids. Future trunks in the Future special and kid Trunks in super. Super kid trunks should be looking like future trunks before Future gohans death/SSJ
Porunga made to be no limitations, I think what should of happened was Dende wished the earths dragon model to namek and then Dende would use the DBs to bring back earth and the people, then Porunga would have a spare wish.
The time chamber being in the cell saga now when it could of been used against the Android's or the saiyans with the Earthlings
Also I don't know if this a recon but I hate this moment
Goku using the Zeno button to call Future Zeno to stop Zamasu and erasing Trunkses timeline. Seriously it kinda made the Goku black arc, and Trunkses character arc in the Android/cell saga.
Huh, I never really considered the fact that trunks was a pre-teen when he fought the androids with Future Gohan, and now that Gohan is a full on adult, and probably older than Future Gohan, he still looks 10. I really do wish Goten and Trunks would age, super didn't really change Trunks much visually or personality wise and Goten acts even younger than Z. A show about Trunks, Goten, and Pan would be much more interesting.
Also, Gero is the red ribbon army leader? I thought he was just some scientist guy in the red ribbon army.
Yeah, the hyperbolic time chamber is really one of those things that screws everything up. It supposedly has always been around, so why wouldn't they have used it from dragon ball to the cell saga when the earth was in danger and they had to cram train?
And, while not a retcon, fusion existing really screws up everything. Saying that at almost anytime the heroes have a way to easily double their power when they need to, but refuse to when earth is in danger just because "they dont want to fuse". It is a similar issue to how super saiyan made the writers write themselves into a corner. If only a super saiyan could beat an enemy, then any non-super saiyan is useless. Especially as the power gap widened.
As for the Zeno button, not only did it make everything that happened in Super pointless, it made Trunks stopping the androids and cell pointless.
@@darrellgardner4561 yes I agree it kinda screws you trunkses whole arc in the Android/Cell saga
I seem to recall Dragon Ball Multiverse came up with an explanation for Vegito's defusion: the Kais that were absorbed by Buu way back when Bibidi was around (South Supreme and Grant Supreme Kais) were still there in some way and were able to sense that there were mortals using the Potara Fusion and it was them that undid it, being unaware of the circumstances. It was an interesting idea. Back when they had those.
With the scouter parts, I'm afraid I have to disagree. The "gifts" from the Cold Force were UPGRADES to the current technology that the saiyans used. Frieza did state in the movie that they would "find these FAR more better than the rudish you're currently using"
Ok, a few things:
1: About the "tingly back" thing; if you think about it, Caulifla was the only one to transform in this way. The other two Universe 6 Saiyans transformed the normal way. Not only that, but Caulifla also figured out Super Saiyan 2 without much effort. Maybe this is something unique to her. Maybe she's some kind of transformation genius, and just needed a push in the right direction. It's posable she could've gone SS3, during the ToP, had she gotten a better look at it
2: Future Trunks, in the Goku Black arc, was not a retcon. (aside from his looks) If you don't like where he and Mai ended up, that's fine, but that doesn't make it a retcon. Unless we're including Time Patrol Trunks in this discussion, in which, fair enough, but if we're talking specifically Trunks from the Cell saga, then no. Super doesn't change anything about who he was or what he did during DBZ, so it's not a retcon.
3: In the same vain, GT isn't a retcon. You could say it's a reboot, but even that's a bit of a stretch. It's a continuation of the Dragon Ball story, from the team who made the anime, not long after the manga ended. It's a sequel. An ill-advised, and poorly thought out sequel, but a sequel nonetheless. I'd argue Super is more of a retcon. Super takes place between the Buu saga and the end of Z, was made 20 years after Z ended, and not only contradicts things that happen in GT, but also a few things that are said in the end of Z
In my opinion, the new broly is amazing. Can’t believe some people think a screaming maniac is better
New Broly screamed just as much. Classic Broly was like a sadistic Hulk, while Canon Broly is like what most people incorrectly thought Broly was (timid to berserker)
Well for the Scouters it can easily be said that the Saiyans still brought them to the Cold force, but the Cold force scientist were able to make improvements to its capabilities, seeing as the Saiyans weren't the most technological group in the universe.
This would actually make the scene in the Broly movie make more sense as the Saiyans had probably been receiving Scouter upgrades for a while already and so the credit for Scouters was being shifted away from them.
in the anime it is mentioned king vegeta was the one who lead the war against the tuffles
we always assumed it was vegeta's father, but the broly revealed our vegeta is prince vegeta the fourth
so you could have the first king vegeta doing the war against the tuffles and bringing things to the cold force
Not to mention I doubt King Cold or Frieza would give credit to the Tuffles for the scouters. Either because they'd be too proud to admit they stole the technology, or because they just wouldn't care enough to give them credit, and really who is going to correct them?
Red Ribbon Army: "So Tuffles... It would seem that someone forgot you made the Scouters originally."
Tuffles: "But at least WE are still remembered."
As fun as it is, Dragon Ball is pretty bad when you actually have a fair, impartial, unbiased, in-depth analysis of it. D:
Seems like the video could use a little CZcams Poll so we could also weigh in on whether we like, dislike, or are neutral with respect to the retcons. Your minority views may not be that rare... I actually suspect the raging fanboys are exaggerated in numbers. ;)
I don't mind the Potora with the limit. Mainly because the explanation we got was a guess rather than a clear answer. (In the manga it was a guess by Goku). I mean also they would just use the Dragonballs to unfuse anyway if the permanent status was still around.
I liked the "tingly back" thing, mostly because I saw it as a way that the power was initially harnessed but beyond Goku's ability to understand it or utilize it. It eventually coalesced there anyways. His anger was the drive that forced him to focus his power there. Just, knowing Goku, he couldn't describe it or even realize it that way. Everyone who ever reached Super Saiyan just eventually either did the same thing, or (Goten and Trunks), realized that "hey, focusing our power here does this neat trick!"
What if Goku was raised by King Kai?
What if Piccolo Trained with Beerus?
Stop.
I would be less angered by the potara retcon and just treat it as new information, had it not been for Old Kai in Z explicitly stating that it was permanent to ANYONE. Well he didn't say anyone, but Goku asked how long it lasted and he smeared and said "that's the genious part, it's permanent". Like Masako said, that fact, was what added weight to the story and made it a tough decision.
Gotta Agreed with you masako with the potara fusion is a retcon that I don't mind