Why the Bosch IDS Units Will Never Control Humidity
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
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As a distributer of Bosch we have sold 1000's of BOVA and BOVB and now the 15 SEER Unit as well with outstanding operation in the Midwest. After you get the home to a reasonable temperature and humidity the unit operates at a sensible heat ration of .78 or below, if the home needs a lower SHR than .78 few systems are going to deliver. A few things can help this problem and one of the the biggest is air flow, the indoor system must have the proper CFM, for example the 5 ton requires 1750 in most application not the 1900 to 2000 most systems aim for on 5 tons. Most of the units I see with issues have way to much airflow producing an oversized AC when using s CFM critical unit. You can also still use Y1 and Y2 for 2 speed blower operation making the inverter operate at 2 separate BTU's using the lower speed to increase length of cycle. Set the cycle rate of the thermostat to 1 cycle!!!!!!, the inverter is designed to have a cool cycle rate of 1, leaving it on 3 will no give the unit correct droop. The thermostat is not proprietary so any thermostat is used and out of the box 99% of thermostats are 3 cycles per hour, this is the second big issue we find. Switch S4-4 moved to the ON position gives you a colder coil target so the SHR drops and humidity removal increases. Be cautioned getting coil temps to low gives you a good chance of hitting dew point on the surface of the metal ductwork, if your ductwork is metal and under drywall moisture can occur when the duct gets to dew point. must have the proper CFM
Not sure why all you guys are seeing issues with Bosch & humidity. I have only put in a dozen or so and have no issues at all. Live in Central PA with high humidity in the summer. I set the return temp on the outdoor unit (dip switch 4/4 to 37degrees. I also set the accelerated heating & cooing to "On". My customers love them.
@@BestHVAC Have to agree the homes with issues end up being issues with the home and not equipment operation
^^^^ Gotta get the airflow right.
I even went a step further in my home and when I get a call for cooling it doesn't tell the blower to ramp up from fan on speed for ten minutes, then goes to y1, and only if we are +1 on set point will it ever activate y2. Bosch 18 seer 5 ton on Rheem vs furnace, works very well and the house is comfortable, no issues with humidity.
@@davidwahl3277 Great Job, at the end of the day we heat and cool for comfort of the end user.
The Bosch IDS targets a specific evaporator temperature, default to 47º or selectable to ~37º for high humidity regions. The compressor speed follows the load on the air handler. Inasmuch it does a BETTER job of providing consistent evaporator temperature and latent heat removal. We've installed several in the Ohio valley with zero complaints. We've had terrible humidity control from other high SEER brands for controlling the humidity.
It's dip switch 4 at the outdoor no?
We’re they full variable insude and out ? Carrier infinity ? What band ‘hi seer’
‘
You do know they have a dip switch you can flip to have more aggressive cooling. It will target a 42 degree coil and not a normal 48 degree coil
Interesting
A joke. Really, read my new post to this site. Dip switch settings will NOT solve all issues with the system. Want some advice, stick with a two stage system that actually uses 410A refrigerant to produce a standard LOW coil temp.
Actually, I was told it was 42 and 37, but achieving that is lost in the all the software running the machine and contradicting demands. And then there is the switch that cause it to "run longer" . Ok, under exactly what conditions? A special setup had to be done to my unit to achieve results. WE in the industry got used to square footage, R factors for insulation, and we could calculate how many BTU's to heat or cool the house, container whatever. NOT so simple anymore! Now 4 tons of inverter, not the same, or is it really impossible to get an inverter to use a coil as cold as used to be standard? Or do we really want to run the system longer, at 65 degree discharge air or something, and slowly bring the house to temp, saving massive amounts of energy but removing all comfort! LOL! Look, houses are not perfect, they age, things leak, and an older system could overcome it, some modern systems apparently CANNOT be applied to all situations like before, so tell your sales guy to sell the correct shoe! Get it? Or maybe Bosch's competitors are like, yeah, we got this, and they don't!
I've had my Bosch 2.0 5 Ton with 5 Ton cased coil on a 80% single speed ECM Carrier furnace for 2 years. I live in KY in a 3500 sq ft house plus finished basement. I had 55-60% humidity when running a single speed cool as described in this video last summer. It was uncomfortable, I had temps set a 71-72 degrees. It was damp and cold.
I decided to rip out the ecobee, install a Honeywell IAQ 9000 wireless thermostat and do a little relay logic for low speed dehumidification and 2 stage cooling. I'm now in the 44-49% humidity range with a 74 degree set point. I have no problems on super hot days with the full speed fan, and it didn't take all that much work to accomplish. You could probably drive it all from the Equipment interface board to the fan speed taps with the exception of the low speed dehumidification as the ECM blowers run at the highest energized tap speed. In any case, if I could do it over, I'd do a 2 speed air handler / gas furnace that supported low speed dehum and you'd have 90% of a full communicating system for 50% of the cost or less without having to do relay logic for fan speeds.
I take it you're modulating fan speed using the fan motor tap? Is your condenser unit also switching speed?
Bosch makes some really great stuff - like my trustworthy mitre saw, dishwasher, and clothes dryer - and then they make stuff that seems to come from another planet because the product doesn't live up to expectations.
I have a Lennox air conditioning unit that serves me well as a dehumidifier. My house is smaller than yours, but I live in Michiagn, which has more extreme weather than beautiful Kentucky. The summers here are hot and VERY HUMID, thanks to the gorgeous Great Lakes. Winters are extremely cold and when the temp drops to 10 F or lower, the air gets very dry. So, then I have to use a HUMIDIFIER or simply keep the bathroom door open after a shower. But for the months when humidity nears 100%, I love my Lennox.
I'm glad your Honeywell works well for you.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 yes. The Bosch ids exterior unit modulates speed based on load calculations from pressure and temps of the indoor evaporator
@@ToadyIsTheDay ,so the bosch runs off cfm of indoor unit-i have one -using it for a few months -3 ton bosch cased coil,ids 2.0 with my old modular heil blower-thinking about it for awhile i decided to try a fan handler on that 20 year old fan motor-so far for heating it works great and i see the inverter dropping hz,the indoor fan runs constant and the emerson sensi stat cycle rate is set to slow-the condenser has 1 pressure transducer that reads suction in cooling and discharge in heating ,i don't see any humidity display at outdoor unit. i watched every bosch training video i could find and the logic makes sense-the unit needs to run at low hz alot..its made to do that job- it takes some to ramp up-can not have controls cycling unit 3-4 times an hour and expect that tight control of humidity-i wouldn't think.
so...basically what you said- temps/pressures of indoor unit-that old t/p relationship,do you have any experience with the bosch ductless units?
@@bobrumpf2576 - No experience with the ductless. I'm fairly happy with the Bosch unit, I just think that installers need to know they need to stage it like a 2 stage system and get the CFM reasonable on the low stage. They sell it as a one size fits all, and I feel like that's a little bit of a disservice to the unit. I bet if you use the multi-speed Bosch Air-handler or Furnace it works pretty well out of the box. For the price, I'd still buy it again, but I'd insist on a 2 stage furnace or air handler at a minimum next time. Mine was supposed to be a 2 stage goodman natural gas and they ran out and swapped with a single stage Carrier on install day. I just didn't know better at the time. Luckily I don't mind tinkering and wired up some relay logic with the Honeywell Prestige and the module that outputs all the different 2 stage outputs. Obviously, better off with a 2 stage unit support out of the box. But with an ECM blower it's not hard to figure it out.
I had a 3 ton IDS 2.0 system installed a year ago in an 1800 sq ft house, coupled to a sensi thermostat with humidity control. I live near Hot Springs, AR, in a very hot humid summer environment. I set the humidistat to 50 percent humidity, and had no problem keeping it there. You apparently did not set up your system correctly.
Thank you! To many people out here trying to find smoothing wrong with a great product. Thanks for the update.
We have installed 50+ IDS 1.0 and 2.0 systems. To be straightforward the Bosch air handlers are junk, do yourself a favor and use the Bosch cased coil and a 2-speed air handler. We regularly install these as dual fuel systems paired with York 2-stage furnaces, which give us the opportunity to stage the fan speeds to target heating vs. Cooling fan speeds. I have a 2-stage gas 80k York (for the 4 ton blower capacity) with a 5-ton IDS 2.0 with 4-ton indoor coil. Its a beast in cooling and keeps by humidity well in check all summer, during the winter it provides plenty of heating capacity to keep my house warm down to 35 degrees where I switch to my gas furnace. BIG fan of the IDS dual fuel systems!
Why do you say the air handler is junk? It uses the same components as any other air handler. How is it any different?
@@harryboody Its basically an ameristar/oxbox.
I’m still not seeing the junk characterization. It’s got a cabinet, at least as heavy a gauge as a Goodman with fiberglass insulation with aluminum scrim. An A coil with TXV, a drain pan, a squirrel cage blower with a Genteq ECM. Which component is junk
I don't think he means "junk", he means control capability. The Bosch air handler is a fixed speed system, not variable at all. The condenser with its massive load of microprocesser's is how they reign supreme. He wants 2 speeds, for heat and for cooling. Yeah, it makes sense, Bosch coil with Bosch 5 ton unit, but with a two speed fan/blower setup, from the York gas furnace used for both systems, switch over to the YORK furnance when it really gets cold. Something someone in the industry might do for their own home, but NOT for a client.
@@irish6976 your observations represent the disconnect between equipment manufacturers and system design. Indoor air flow cannot vary if you expect adequate performance from terminals for uniform comfort and mixing of ventilation air. (See ACCA Manual T) That’s one advantage of the Bosch system with constant indoor air flow. And now they’ve joined the fan speed manipulators with the IDS 2 which allows ~20% lower airflow to improve dehumidification. The proper design for 2 stage and variable speed compressors is engineered bypass. (See ACCA Manual LLH).
I have a Bosch 2.0 BVA-48-WNI-M20 air handler in the attic and outdoor Condenser is BOVB-60HD-NIM18M. This is considered a 18 Seer system. It is also humidity creating machine! Lots of issues. Yes, it is energy efficient, yes it will modulate the outdoor condenser fan to run up/down for load. But the main goal is to hit TEMP setpoint with the LEAST amount of electrical energy. Humidity is NOT even considered. It was fine at the time of installation, 108 degrees, with 10% outdoor humidity.
But, when outdoor humidity increased to 45%, indoor humidity hit 70! Only a custom factory setup could fix this, lowering indoor humidity to 55%.
So, Bosch is really about TEMP and lowest Electrical current draw. That's great, as long as you live in a desert, with 10% outside humidity as a standard daily feature. Once outdoor humidity increases, indoor humidity increases rapidly to uncomfortable levels. Indoor humidity would be around 38% as long as you "crack" a window open to allow dry air to mix with indoor air (and thats after the custom factory setup), better if you turn on a bathroom exhaust fan to exhaust some of the humidity laden air. If you are taking showers, etc, mopping the floor, your humidity will hover around 45-47%. So when the outdoor humidity increases 20%, (you went from 10% to 30 - 40% outdoor humidity, your indoor humidity hits 60%. The only solution, is to turn the setpoint down by 10- 15 points. So you were at 76 degrees, now you are set at 66 degrees, this forces the unit to actually run long enough (consider 4-5 hours minimum, or even all day long) to remove some water vapor, something the Bosch system is clearly NOT designed to do. It removes a quart when a standard single stage 4 ton, Rudd system removes a gallon of water. Worse it will never catch up to the humidity created in the house via normal life, ie showers, baths, cooking, etc. Summer humidity is murderous to indoor life with the Bosch system. The PLUS of the Bosch system is using it in the winter. It maintains an average around 22 - 25% humidity all winter, so you don't need a humidifier, but most of us want AC for summer conditions and there is the painful rub. If you do not FORCE the system to run longer, it will hit its TEMP setpoint, with extreme energy efficiency, and NEVER remove a drop of humidity. It takes about 20minutes of system operation before the Bosch removes any moisture at all. The result is inside humidity increases as outside temp increases. The inside air has to end up freezing cold, as this air, while uncomfortable can't hold enough water vapor, and thus humidity drops to a manageable 45%! Your wife will be cold and furious, but hey, think of all the energy that you are likely NOT saving due to extend and continuous run times. What used to mean, short cycling was an oversized system with Bosch its just daily life, ie hit the set point fast with least energy but it never runs long enough to address basic humidity. So run baby run, I question this strategy for energy efficiency. And how did the custom factory setup AFFECT the energy efficiency, the Seer rating? Doom and gloom, maybe.
Lets continue - The Bosch system coil temp is NOT cold, can never reach the Temp of a standard Rudd coil. The Bosch system is SOFTWARE controlled, it takes special parameters to be plugged into the system to "improve" operation. The Bosch system has more microprocessor than the NEW Tesla car, not something that just any HVAC can work on or trouble shoot.
Installation - For best humidity control, be advised, only use VERTICAL coil installation. Bosch uses the SAME coil for Vertical and horizontal discharges and then uses software tricks to make it work. How does that affect humidity? Well Vertical discharge is best for lowest humidity, horizontal is a crap shoot, with left side discharge being the worst for humidity control, and yes you guess it, I have left hand discharge. So do not sell horizontal discharge unless your system is being installed at 5,000 feet elevation where the air is drier and cooler by nature.
Now the question about air flow across the coil I have .2" WC, for my system static, Bosch's air handler is NOT variable, it has 5 speeds, it runs at default #3 high output which is 1691cfm for a .2"WC system static. Self evident from all that described above, the coil is NOT cold enough to remove humidity in a horizontal config at that speed and default coil temp effectively. There is a Passive Dehumidify mode. No one uses it and Bosch does not suggest using it, but it is listed in the technical spec. Bosch does NOT sell a humidistat that supports the function, but here is how it is supposed to work. Add a pair of wires from the existing T-Stat to the the air handler. That pair of wires will be used for your new humidistat function. GO to Grainger distribution, buy a Passive Humidistat with a Knob on the front to select your humidity setting, this trips a low voltage contact at humidity setpoint you desire. I set it for 45%. When the humidistat trips, its contacts close, this activates the air handler to first stage air flow, which at .2WC would be 1062 cfm, and turns the condenser "ON". The air moves SLOWER across the evap coil removing more humidity, while sacrificing meeting setpoint so fast. Bosch does not like because that spoils all the ENERGY savings. And its not a great way to dehumidify air. But it might work well at night, so you could avoid waking up at 76 and 50-60% humidity in the morning. You see all that solar heat is gone, you are stuck with say 73 at 45%, night begins, you wife is freezing cold and angry. IF your setpoint is allowed to rise so will the humidity, You wake up at 55% at 76 degrees. Maybe the slower air flow and a 45% humidity setting would work. Have not tried and only would need in times of high outside humidity, 30% and up. Don't worry about the coil freezing, ALL those microprocessors and sensors will NEVER allow that, because you are still running the system at a supported airflow level.
If you WANT Bosch, then I recommend ONLY buy a Vertical discharge system, ONLY buy a 20seer system, Bosch says the 20seer system can be set to a LOWER Evap coil temperature and has MANY more custom settings for success. AVOID the 18seer system including Bosch BVA 2.0 unless you live at 5,000 feet altitude.
I have a BOVA 20 5 ton unit with a two speed air handler. My home is on a lake in central MO.
I am able to keep the humidity below 50% most of the time and below 55% all of the time.
I have a two stage thermostat with dehumidifier output connected to the air handler that forces low fan speed. This combination has worked well. My humidity is higher than my old single speed R-22 system, but it has been acceptable.
The efficiency has been about as expected when going from a 13 to 20 SEER unit. It has also been effectively silent in my home in the summer. Heating mode is about as loud as the old unit and less of an efficiency improvement. I think I am getting more efficiency during heating from smarter control of two stages of electrical strip heating.
I have not had a problem with humidity control with them, but I've only used one with the Bosch indoor unit once. It was a zoned system, and I added a relay to the air handler to drop the blower speed when only one of the two zones were calling.
I've mostly been using their outdoor units as replacements for when the compressor dies on one the single stage zoned systems that have been all the rage in new construction in my area for a while now. All are fairly high static pressure applications.
Also have been using them to replace the outdoor unit in out of warranty 2 step scroll or 2 compressor systems, so have a variable speed blower with advanced dehumidification functions available.
I've also set every one of them to the more aggressive setting for the coil temperature.
Basically did the same to my single stage dual zone new construction house. However have left it completely stock without needing to use accelerated cooling.
You got something there! Look, on retrofit systems, why not approach the client about using zoned systems? Especially on larger homes, or homes where the AHU is NOT centrally located in the house. Put a T Stat in each room, zone it, use damper control, preserve the static pressure, move air makes sense. But why have such low static pressure systems in the first place? There are newer residential systems using high static and therefore using solid 4-5" duct work, and putting a return and supply in each room. Look at the ridiculous size of ductwork due to the low static systems installed in residential! Look at the materials, that are eaten up in the attics, look at the leakage of the duct systems, the building contractor thinks he has no choice. A typical residential system has no damper controls, and we should at least have some kind of control to add some outside air, exhaust some air, but we don't! You have to go to commercial controls. Why can't we have a PLUS T-STAT with some programmable input and outputs? No! We only build Model T's and Edsel's, and just upgrade it and throw the same stuff out there. Dum and Dummer.
I have the Bosch 2.0 and it is phenomenal in Naples Florida. 50% RH is easily attainable. Outside unit is variable and air handler is 2 stage.
All high seer units with high suction pressure do to lower more efficient compression ratios suck at removing humidity, the only reason other communicating systems don’t get complaints is because they can control the blower speed or have a Dehumidification mode,
Increasing static will lower CFM but will not increase dehumidification, high static will lift moisture off of the coil and put it into the air causing growth issues inside of the cabinet and ductwork
Low blower speed = lower air discharge temperature. More moisture will condense on the coil fins and therefore find its way out of the cooled environment . I may be wrong but 30 years in the field says otherwise....
Meaning more moisture removal?
I agree with you. The issue Bosch has is changing humidity conditions. And trying to operate with higher coil temperatures which fail to remove equivalent amounts of humidity to industry standards. At lower speeds the Bosch should remove more moisture from the system with there higher coil temperature. If they used a variable speed air handler even better. They don't, they use a fix speed, otherwise in standard situations they do not have enough air flow to move air around the house and affect any cooling at all.
@@irish6976 I may be wrong here, but I was reading that the blower is 2 stage? Unless many of the comments is on older Bosch systems? EDIT: They have 2 air handlers now, 1 is the single speed, and the other is a 2 stage 2 speed hander.
I am very pleased with your videos with their content, it is very helpful, thank you, keep doing it
can't you flip switch on condenser. drops evap coil temp 37F and increasers heat temp to 116F
what are your talking about? the coil saturation temperature always stays the same based on the compressor speed output. if the fan speed increases, the coil temperature will increase / pressure will rise, the controls will see this and start to increase capacity. the unit will either maintain a 43 or 47 degree coil saturation setpoint based on selection of onboard dipswitches . The apparatus dew point is always constant, that's the whole point , if you have a 36kBTU condenser but only need 2 tons of cooling , you set the fan speed for 800cfm, the unit will modulate down to always maintain a 43 or 47 degree coil .
We have Lennox variable speed furnace and just a dual stage condenser. We are also using Honeywell zone controllers that will if only a single zone is calling will but the unit into dehumidify mode and run the fan at about 36% and run only the 1st stage. It will really pull the condensate out of the house. As soon as a second zone calls it will ramp the fan up to 100% and then kick in the 2nd stage if needed.
Well, excellant! I have the Bosch 2.o system and it fails in every way. What you have is the "BETTER" choice. I was provided Good, Better and BEST choices, I went with the "BEST" ,Bosch, BAD IDEA.
Apparently Bosch does not have the options where you can go into the T-Stat and you go into the technicians menu that the customer normally doesn’t have access to an override the fan speeds and set a low speed for example let’s just say 300 CFM per ton and then another speed 370 CFM for medium and 420 CFM for high speed.
Like Samsung or Mitsubishi or LG or Panasonic or FUJITSU. ?
THe 2.0 units have 4 stages of fan speed which can be set via dip switch inside the unit. In effect, you can set which 4 of 5 fan speeds you wish it to go through. If I want the unit to run longer (hopefully better humidity control), I would turn down the stages of the indoor blower.
install a bypass damper that modulates open as the compressor slows down, but for that to work there would have to be a feedback 0-10 or 4-20 from the compressor controls
This is true. I have 2 of the Gen 1 and I had to install a dehumidifier to keep up with humidity issues.
Are you running 1 cph and your thermostat
@@johnszymanski548
I have it set up independently. The dehumidifier kind of monitors it self until there is a cooling call then it works together. So far it has worked great.
@@eddiesellers8522 OK, well what about all of that energy efficiency you were promised? Were you told you would need to buy a dehumidifier to make the Bosch system happy? You just increase your energy costs. Dehumidifiers are energy hogs.
Bosch unit does have a dip switch to give you a colder evaporator. That will help the humidity, I use it on all of my installations now
Does it also raise the temperature of the coil in the heat pump mode?
The key word is *control* but Bosch was never designed to control humidity, that is merely a function of operation. You can argue communication systems (with much higher costs) do a marginal better job of dehumidification, but typically this is relegated by a control band of usually 3 to 5 degrees... so in that realm it is still a function in my opinion.
The thing is the Bosch is more or less a load matching machine, so if you use it as such and realize it has to be running for dehumidification to take place then you have to also realize that certain climates will run counter to how the Bosch runs does what it does. The sacrifice is mostly related to temperature because that is what decides if the Bosch runs or not. Temperature concerns run independantly from humidity.
Bosch was never intended to be a control for humidity. Remember it runs from temperature signal.
My question to you, is WHAT climates does the Bosch system to be applied for? I would recommend 5,000 foot elevation. I would recommend arid areas that temperatures do not climb above 100, degrees, and have oudoor humidity of 15% or less .
@@irish6976 put two people in a room and they will fight over a thermostat setting.
Put two HVAC contractors in room, both will have differing opinions.
Put two engineers in a room... well? People love to argue. You have to understand humidity and temperature are two independant fluctuating things. If you are trying to contol humidity in a colder environment via temp it won't work so well.
@@bjkjoseph politicians form the rules that are passed on to the DOE and EPA which we HVAC contractors are then forced to follow. Congratulations, you voted or didn't and lost anyway. I'm not here to tell you what you want to hear, I'm here to tell you like it is. If you don't like it get a rally going in a cemetary and get them to vote differently. Good Luck.
What level of humidity are most of you experiencing?
Great video thank you 🙏🏻 keep them coming
I wish I had seen your video before installing! My humidity is WORSE now with my Bosch 20 seer than it was with my single stage with no dehumidifier. The company is trying to be as helpful as possible and even called Bosch to come help but Bosch is wanting to add a dampener to recycle 500CFM's of air to slow the air down to help. This is hogwash, I am ready to remove and go back to a single stage. This was the worse thing we could have done! DONT DO IT! Bosch has done a horrible job at educating installers and addressing this issue up front with them.
I’ve been saying this was the problem the whole time with these units. These units are ok where there is low humidity or extremely long run cycles. I’ve lost 30k or more on these units along with some other contractors in the area I know of. I’ve changed the units completely out on my tab and it fixed all my issues. I’ve tried all I could and had manufacturers reps look at these things with no answers. Only try this and that. I’m glad I’m not the only one that has the same understating of why they don’t work well. I’ve explained this to the manufacturer like this guy says and they said that was not true but this has got to be the case.
Was a heat load calculation done before selection the equipment size?
We are in South West Ohio where the humidity gets very high in the Spring and Summer. The Bosch units we've installed don't deal with the higher indoor RH like the Carrier or Trane communicating systems. I think most dealers jump on the Bosch Band Wagon because it's cheaper and easier to sell higher a SEER units. They simply don't provide the indoor comfort levels of a communicating system.
I concur
@@HVACShopTalk my experience aș well. look bosch is , BY DESIGN< a great solution for phoenix, its terrible for southeast USA.
Just installed a 2.0 IDP in Southwest FL older small home (3 ton).
In this area, outdoors hits full moisture retention every night! Also, it's been wet (this is usually dry season).
As I understand it, my Bosch doesn't have a dehumidifier...so why would I expect it to control humidity other than the relatively normal amounts that the cooling (or heating) will do?
As stock it does have a function which will override temp. setting by a degree or two in an attempt to hit a setpoint humidity.
I'm not expert, but it would seem the 4 speed fan and some proper settings of it (make the unit run A/C at least 60% of the time) should keep the humidity low?
Being a 1950's house with real (rock hard) plaster walls and also pesky cypress siding, I have found a higher humidity allowance will not result in any mold, mildew or condensation. Anything below 65% is more than fine.
JS DIP switch 4 is a accelerated cooling and will target a 37 degree coil vs a 45 or whatever Bosch wants to target a 133 psig suction pressure. The real problem is the Bosch is to good at removing latent heat due to if the suction pressure rises it just delivers more capacity. This not really having extended run times… I wish they would simply put a dehumidifier function like the carrier green speed where on the end of every run cycle it will stage down and hover coil temp at 35 degrees until the set point is reached.
A Bosch mirrors airflow period changing cfm won’t do anything. It will target x regardless it will ramp down to target that 133 degree suction temp adjusting airflows just changed capacity period
The new cooling coil temps are different now, it's 47f (default) or 42f, and doing either one also determines your target coil temp in heating. It's a sliding scale withe the cooling settings (109f or 113f). No more 37f cooling coil option anymore. Don't forget, the new 2.0s have a dehumidification mode when paired with the right stat. It's the black wire in the ahu and it looks for a 24v signal. This will bump the fan speed down to 1st stage. Also, a properly done Manual J and correct sized equipment and match up with the correct duct sizing for proper static pressure all work to provide the best overall latent and sensible heat removal for optimal occupant comfort.
I listened to your video twice and I don’t think you understand how the Bosch system operates. All the controversy about humidity removal can be resolved by reviewing the detailed cooling capacity tables in the product data. The physics don’t change with an inverter. The suction pressure is maintained at 130 PSI developing a 45 degree coil at any airflow. Or closer to 40 if you change the dip switch SW1-4. 45 degrees is well below design temp dew point of 55 degrees. Hence moisture is removed. Wet bulb rises to 67 degrees, look at the table. SHR goes down to .57. Suction pressure modulates at 130 PSI, still 45 degrees.
Yep it’s physics for sure
What about on the 2.0 paired with the 4 ton air handler. I'm having humidity issues and HVAC co says I need a duct leakage and blower door test before they can determine what to do. Tech said dip switch is at 4. I have a dual zone with a bonus room as zone 2. Zone 2 will climb to 100%humidity. My air returns dont seem to be pulling as much air as they did with my former non variable speed system. TY
@@shelbybrown9461 duct leakage can be a huge problem if the system is in a hot humid attic or a damp basement or crawl space. If you have duct leakage on the return, the unit is pulling in massive amounts of humidity which can overwhelm the moisture removal capacity of the unit. Duct leakage should always be tested. On the other hand, you shared that your old unit didn’t have a problem. The question is, what changed?
The performance of the Bosch unit is wholly dependent on indoor air flow through the duct. High air flow gives you less moisture removal. If the airflow is excessive, the unit doesn’t remove much moisture at all. Lower airflow improves moisture removal. The blower has 5 speeds. Someone needs to check system airflow.
If the airflow is incorrect, then it’s also highly likely the unit isn’t properly charged with coolant (refrigerant). The Bosch unit must be critically charged. Best practice is to weigh in additional refrigerant at .6 Oz per ft of line set length in excess of 15 ft.
Then you mentioned zoning. There isn’t much chance zoning was done properly. I’ve done hundreds of HVAC failure investigations and never seen a properly designed zoning system. The issue is typically incorrect excess air management, in other words too much bypass air. This is typically the case with bypass dampers. Excess bypass will destroy the compressor, usually about 3-6 months after the warranty expires. On the other hand, excessive bypass air increases moisture removal.
One last item to check. Make sure the thermostat is set to 1 cycle per hour. Variable speed units are designed to run almost continuously. If the cycle rate is set high, they will short cycle and not maximize humidity removal.
Last resort, call Bosch customer service number. It should be found in your owners manual. I can tell you from experience, it’s not likely the unit. These type issues are almost always caused by an installer who thinks installation instructions are suggestions or knee pads….
It's in an insulated garage
@@harryboody thank you for all the great information. Unit is in an insulated garage. Bypass is in working order. Not sure about cycle times. Can't get an answer from my HVAC co. It cycled 3 times in an hour last night on my main level.
How can I check this in a sensi stat?
Dont have humidity issues in my house... 1800sqft indoor amana aepf3137 (12yrs old) / Bosch bova-60hdn1-m18m sticks at 50%rh in the summer hot or mild days. indoor unit is running 650cfm +/- fan only mode on first stage 800cfm on second. Elements are unhooked from the thermostat, placed 200k ohm resister in parallel with ambient sensor to get -12 deg capability.... system has been functioning perfectly for going on 2 years now 0 issues. plus i can fully heat/cool my house on a 6000watt generator if i unhook w2 on outdoor unit. unit cycles at o deg outside..... which means it completes a heat cycle on just heat pump, in about 2 hours..... normally homes that have humidity issues with Bosch had humidity issues before Bosch. folks your ac system is not a cure all, its not an air filtration device either. just like the ecm blower motor doesn't cure airflow issues to your 2nd floor. that's why they sell hepa systems / dehumidifiers / and dampers for balancing systems.
NO ac unit completely controls humidity so saying the Bosch doesn't do it is like saying a chevy cobalt doesn't fly..... no other cars do either.
you want an ac unit that controls humidity, get a commercial unit with reheat. no other way to do it without cooling while dehumidifying.
You could have an eev that throttles way down and makes a small portion of the evap very cold but you'd run into raising compressor superheat very high but if it's already at low capacity it's unlikely to overheat. Or have a liquid line head temperature bypass valve as well like in walk in freezer applications
An EEV would control superheat over the evaporator...... not give it one cold area. The EEV controller relies on the suction side temp sensor to throttle the amount. Let's not go into how there may be a 1° reading difference versus the outlet of an a-coil at the top versus the bottom.
@@mikes.7825 what??? We're talking about a 36k btu condensor and a matching evap where the compressor capacity gets dropped to maybe 25% yes. Throttling an eev to give let's say 50+° evap superheat would most definitely make one section of the evap cold enough to condensate no matter what the fan speed is
@@mikes.7825 I promise if you have high superheat it will mimic an undercharged condition where only a small portion of the evaporator has liquid refrigerant boiling off. Like in a freezer that's first coming down to temp. The valve/condenser isn't physically capable of making that much cooling power for that large/hot of a coil.
Has anyone had to wrap the AHU in a horizontal garage position? I am being asked to do this and there is zero experience in my are doing this. My unit is sweating on the AHU underbelly and after 2 months of troubleshooting, with a home with no problems, it won’t stop. Told to wrap!
Which Bosch unit series would you recommend in a 3 ton unit for small condo in Florida: a WQ or a SV series?
Does anyone know if the newest systems still have this issue? From what I'm reading on the IDS 2.0 is that the AHU is 2 speed, and depending on you thermostat settings will ramp airlfow to stage 2 if your setpoint is greater than 3 from the stat temp, and down to stage 1 when you are within a degree. The condenser than will do it's own thing and ramp up/down to maintain coil temperature. Wouldnt this work the same, or better than a standard 2-stage AC unit at controlling humdity?
FWIW I'm replacing my current system which is a 3.5T R22 condenser matched to a 4T AHU. I've never had an issue with humdity control on that system, and it seem sliek having 2 speed fan control will if anything only improve that. Am I missing something, or do most of these humdity issues come from either not having a 2 speed AHU, or having thermostat configured incorrectly?
I talked to a Bosch rep he said change your cooling cph on the stat down to 1 but I don’t know haven’t got a chance to try it on one yet
Had a nightmare ,lowering cph helped a little but lowering coil temp and fan speed barley made the customer happy . I spent more time tweaking than the install took. What finally worked was lowering fan speed dips .
@@siliconebobsqpts I am a client, and I can tell, that, they always say no one else is complaining. But search the internet, upset HVAC companies, upset customers. Not everyone, but Bosch can do better, they just don't want to.
@@irish6976 - I think most of the problems are with the installing contractors not knowing stuff - AND, the Bosch manuals could definitely use some more detail in explaining dehumidification.
As with most heating equipment, 90% (maybe more?) of the installers don't know things! They just install units and that is that.
bosch m19 or discontinued old model american standard 16 seer heat pump for simillar price? have to choose between 2.
I wonder if the ICM CC750 would do the trick.
That control won't work on ECM blower motors, which most equipment comes with these days.
It also works to maintain a target temperature drop through the indoor coil, which would most likely result in an entertaining, if somewhat counterproductive, feedback loop as the Bosch outdoor unit works to maintain a target coil temperature.😉
Can someone explain how you maintain terminal performance when manipulating indoor fan speed?
You can call it a true inverter unless the outdoor unit is communicating with the blower!
Coil is not going to reach dew point... maybe reducing air handler airspeed will reduce coil temp and reach dew point to start removing water vapor...
This is why we sell the Bryant evolution and extreme
Is this problem only related to the lower seer units with single stage AH. I have the Bosch 3 ton. 20 seer that comes with 2 stage air handler (36HDN1-M20G, BVA-36WN1-M20) and we don't have any problems. live in south NJ. 52% is the higher humidity I have ever seen.. usually 43-49. My house is 55 year old , no bathroom or kitchen exhaust fans and system is in unconditioned attic. Old system was completely Rip out with all new duck work put in , insolated and sealed. Maybe that made some difference too. I feel sorry for all the people that are having problems. But we are more then happy . Our house has never been this comfortable, the unit runs in low stage most of the time and it nice and quiet I can only tell if it on when near return grill or look out the window and see the fan spin on the condenser. It run a lot more then the old 2.5 ton system but bills are still 35% - 40% lower for cooling. hopefully heating will be the same. The only advice I would give to anyone looking in to one. Stay away from Bosch thermostat that thing is junk. and if you can afford it , get 2 stage air handler with good thermostat. I have Ecobee 5 and love it.
Units are units... Install is the key.
After fighting with the one I installed in my own house I stopped selling Bosch. Not only does it not remove humidity in the summer but heating mode leaves a lot to be desired. Ramp speed of the compressor in heat mode is way too long and even in accelerated mode it takes too long to produce heat.
I haven’t noticed the heating part, but def the humidity part.
What part of the country?
@@OnePointLander Northern Ohio
@@CDX825 No comment on the HP, but my 2.0 has been dehumidifying really well and is consistently in the mid to high forties. I set the speed to 375CFM and set minimum run times on ecobee to 20 mins. Stock dipswitch settings on the Bosch.
Exactly! Very slow ramp up on heat, but it does work. The system creates and sustains humidity by NOT removing it in the first place. Just do not shower, bath, or cook in summer.
Can confirm, I am hot and humid all the time. I would rather be a cool dry shart.
How much humidity is too much and how long should the cycles be? On a hot day, my compressor runs 10 min then shuts off for 30 minutes. The temperature drop is almost 3 degrees and humidity about 63%.
My setpoint is 77 degrees.
Your equipment is oversized
@@tekjunkie28 Agree. It's a heat pump though (3 ton, 1800 sqft) so it has to be large enough to heat as well, which it does fine? Also, the thermostat is amazingly close to the single air return (just a couple feet). I'm contemplating moving thermostat further away around the corner (10 ft or more).
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 I'm not sure moving the thermostat would do anything but try it. You really need a dehumidifier. Also air seal the home and add insulation. That will help your heating load also. I'm at 1100 sqft in a 1972 house. If I replace my windows my cooling would come down to 1.55 tons.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 do you already have the Bosch IDS 2.0 installed?
@@tekjunkie28 No. I'm avoiding the complexity of multiple speeds.
I would get some real experience with Bosch before you trash the product. If it’s not dehumidifying then ether you have incorrectly sized duct, or you did not set up its thermostat correctly. The Bosch needs long run times to operate and dehumidify properly, just like all inverter type systems. I only install Bosch in Maryland and customers and myself, are blown away by how well it’s does dehumidify.
Here are two videos that detail how my Bosch was installed and how it was set up with zoning.
Install - czcams.com/video/MZ3_wHp-7ZY/video.html
Zoning and set up - czcams.com/video/5culewq0U6k/video.html
@@HVACShopTalk respectfully, that video showed nothing to support your accusation.
@@HVACShopTalk set cycles per hour to one. If your cycle is less then 20 minutes that’s your problem. Bosch hasent even equalized yet on a set run speed until 15-20 min into the cycle. You can lower the coil temp, but even in Maryland’s humidity, I’ve never had to do that. Thermostat and airflow
Debating on going with the ids 2.0, I live in (Maryland). Some people say it’s junk, other say this stuff is the best. 🤷🏻♂️
@@foresthillheatingair4051 Very interesting. What indoor humidity levels are you maintaining for your Bosch clients in summer.
Been curious to get my hands on one. They seem like a innovative system. Just no real market exposure here
With what ive heard it seemed that using their outdoor unit and using a varible inside unit or possibly a single speed indoor and using times to run the blower speed down
You can go down to 350 CFM per ton with no filter lol
I am curios is there a dehumidifier accesories for Bosch IDS 2.0 heatpumps? My hvac quoted me 8K to install this. Lol
Yea... any stand alone dehumidifier. Air seal the house as much as possible and then get a fresh air dehu and the bosch.
@@tekjunkie28 so the Bosch IDS2.0 there's no built in dehumidifier?
@@ProductsForMen there is no AC unit with a built in dehumidifier. The Bosch will dehumidify. If just needs competent techs or your house had issues.
It has no "true" dehumidifier, but if set up properly will - of course - lower the humidity in the conditioned area. It also has a thermostat setting that forces the unit to run to achieve a set point humidity (it will override temp. by a few degrees if needed).
Neither of these are equal to a true dehumidifier, but if set up correctly should do the job for many.
@@Droneflyers the setting to force the unit to run to achieve set point humidity doesnt seem to work on mine
Yes
Nice theory. Do you know what a TXV is and how it works?
One of the strongest selling points behind the Bosch (for me and my customers) is it works on almost any T-stat. A special snowflake communicating T-stat system costing multiple hundreds-thousands of dollars isn't required.
Anyone ever had a thermostat go bad and shut down your fancy $10k AC? Who wants to add more Tstat controls to increase failure likelihoods? Not me. I like simple. Bosch apparently makes simple look genius.
Well, T-stats are easily replaced. ENTIRE systems that FAIL to produce equivalent to industry standards can kill a business fast. Be careful.
Sounds like a lot of theory here, but no real facts. I run this system in my own home. AC contractor. I have a Frankenstein system BOSH BOVA 18 Seer with a Goodman Variable Speed air handler. I know its not matched so it would never pass permitting for energy rating certification. i don't care about all that. It works perfectly and i have solar so my power bill in my 3,600sft home is $35 a month. Back to the AC and humidity. No humidity issues with these systems. I have it hooked up to a 4 zone system system. They do run longer than a normal system which in turns controls humidity better. Middle of summer my humidity stays around 55% and house is comfortable. I am also able to run this system with my 7,500 watt inverter generator no issues for days when a hurricane knocks out my power. Love this unit will replace with another. Don't listen to this guys "Theory".
55 is not low humidity! My single speed system keeps my humidity in Alabama where we have real humidity, at about 42! Anything over 50% is getting uncomfortable!
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, the Bosch system has a variable speed condensor but its paired with a single speed indoor blower? If so, how could they offer this and expect it to work properly. Sorry for my ignorance if im wrong.
My company installs quite a bit of Heil modulating Furnaces and if we come across a situation where the AC needs to be upgraded we'll offer the Heil 5 stage variable condensor. Properly installed with the Ion t-stat the system works great, and is Unbelievably Quiet.
That is correct! At least if they had
See the current Bosch has 10 speed condenser
fan, it runs just enough to match the load and maintain set point. NOT sure how much they throttle the gas, if at all. Again, just enough to match the load. While they use a fix fan inside the AHU.
AGAIN: The key word is *CONTROL* an air conditioner is not designed to control dehumidification. This is why they make dehumidifiers. However a Bosch Inverter does a well enough job of dehumidification *BECAUSE* it's a function of it's operation. It has to be running to dehumidify. It is still controlled via temperature. You can argue, chase your tail all you want you will not control (key word again) dehumidification from an air conditioner. You do however control *temperature* because that is what an air conditioner is designed to do. You don't have to like it, you don't have to like me, you can cry over and over it's not going to change this fact. I live in a humid climate for nearly 25 years now. If you live in a less humid climate than me a dehumidifier is buying another system to handle 1 problem. This will give you the control you want. (key word again control. A function of a system is not control. A function is to dupe you to buy something thinking it does something when it does not.
Flame me all you want like you did from my previous post here. It will change nothing.
You know nothing! I live in one of the most humid areas of the country, Alabama, also one of the hottest! Right now we have humidity levels of 85% and my humidity in my home is 42% with nothing but my single speed air conditioner! Air conditioners are much better at dehumidification than a dehumidifier without having to run another watt guzzling item!
@@27delphi so can you set your home to reach 35% humidity? With an air conditioner? no you can not. Humans produce humidity as a function of living. So what may be right for you due to a wide variety of factors to numerous to mention here isn't the end all be all for a specific answer. Completely different for a different house with differing circumstances. AC is designed to drop temperature. Some dehumidification comes with that, but that doesn't mean "control" by any stretch of the imagination.
WHO is this Guy??? NO complaints here,,,,,,, Stick to getting your dry walling finished ,,,,
Did Bosch stop sponsoring you so now there's shade???? Pretty sure you, raredon and that joker who lives in Atlanta and works for Ferguson or whoever have never had a original idea
They will if you install them correctly which requires some IQ points
Ids 2.0 operating 2 stage no humidity issues .
Where are you?
@@HVACShopTalk NJ
OK, you mean you have a two stage fan? AHU on Bosch is single stage. If you have a two stage fan, that might mean the differnence
@@johnszymanski548 Can you provide the Part number for your Bosch Condenser and your Bosch Air handler? Or are you using a Two stage indoor fan, as you are using a Bosch Coil only, and two stage fan from a gas furnace? If you have just a Bosch Heat pump system, I am not sure what you have installed. This would help.
@@irish6976 I'm using a Bosch 36k 2.0 condenser. Arcoaire coil and arcoaire 2 stage 97% gas furnace
So U think,U got any real world experience
Yes.
You can get it to dehumidify if you can disable the variable speed making it like a standard compressor.
What you have is an expensive piece of ill designed machinery
Agreed. Any amount of money you save on efficiency goes out the window if it breaks down
With a $2000 control board that is exposed to outdoor elements. What can possibly go wrong?
@@jph77 Answer! Brown out! Lightning strike on your house. Bye-Bye system.
@@irish6976 Everytime there was lightening storm I'd be sh*tting my pants....lol
@@jph77 And NO WARRANTY! Says so in the Bosch literature. I would never install by the sea shore or in the mountains! I would also install a whole house surge protector, but Bosch does have power supply protection as its mostly a big computer system, like on a new car. You know, the new cars can't even run without the computer! And why some folks only park there new cars in grounded steel sheds up in the mountains! Waiting for the EMP or the lightning strike. I was in a house at 7500 feet and it got hit by lightning. It had a metal roof, but no lightning spikes to ground, so the best ground was the phone system, and any electronic control board, WIFI, LED light bulbs, smoke detectors, emergency generator, computer control board on the propane furnace, everything just dead. Oh, but the old style incandescent light bulbs - worked perfectly.
👍
Brother, one HVAC guy to another, I think you're missing some significant considerations. And in some of your other videos as well.
Well what are they?
Totally nonsensical
Reheat! Reheat! Reheat! That is your answer.
I can’t like this comment enough
Could you please explain how you would do this? I know how commercial vav systems work but that's a whole different system.
@@a1a918 Zacks system is a heat pump with electric heat. You would need to run the electric heat along with the cooling when dehumidification is called for. May take adding in a relay or two, but it shouldn’t be too difficult. Also, I suspect it to be pretty effective and shouldn’t cost a tremendous amount to operate.
Or you can use a Honeywell Vision Pro or Prestige tstat with reheat built in.