"Fingering the Guard" Swords & Swordsmanship in Europe and India
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- 'Fingering the guard' might sound funny, but was a very important development in European swordsmanship and sword design. Some people assert that it should also be considered an important facet of Indian swordsmanship. In this video I try to drill down into that a little.
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as long as the guard consents
the sword dont care
🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, looks like everyone already made all the variations of the joke I wanted to make.
And yet, I am more amused at your comment; low hanging fruit and all that ;)
"Fingering the guard with indian swords"
Ouch... poor guard
That depends on you how we read it right? Maybe the guard is known to to own several Indian swords.
Don´t finger our guards they have a Job to do. no matter what swords they got :)
Depends on who's guarding tonight 🤔
🤣🤣🤣
"You could never possibly put the finger up there; it's just not an option, it's not possible."
-Matt Easton, 2021.
Who can resist a double finger ring?
2 rings for 2 weddings.
I find a couple of glasses of wine really helps during training for this technique.
A dinner before such exhausting training does wonders for me
Is this a reference I'm not getting?
I am beginning to suspect that Scholagladiatoria is actually a comedy channel masquerading as a HEMA channel
How so?
Wait until he starts talking about spears, and about how some of the Viking Sagas even document how they would lube both the head AND the shaft... of the spear!😀
Huh? Why so?
Depends on whether the guard prefers a fingering or a hammer fist grip.
There must be 50 ways to love your lever...lol
Quality work!
The Community demands that you respond to Shad
Nah I'm just kidding I don't care
To take his takes on these topics serious at all is a mistake imo.
Sadly he has a large audience and probably does as much demage as good for HEMA and historical education at large.
@@GuitarsRockForever Full agreement on that! The solution to this debate would be to just distinguish HEMA-strict and HEMA-broad. Though, truth be told, I can't even see the sense of the debate (because... what are the stakes? one is exiled from hema and his named is perished in time? lol)
"What did Shad go wrong?" - I don't know if anything, but if I tried to point, I think the problem would lie not in "history" - which he does perfectly - but with "martial arts".
To think with your analogy: I do karate and the boxing, I find synergies and new moves. Are these new moves martial arts already?
If yes, even if I find the proves of them being employed historically, did they form a martial art then (after all, "historic martial art" suggests that we study martial art that existed in history)?
This does not diminish nor discredits in any way the broader approach. It gives a perfect insight of how fights can - or could have been - be brought to maximal efficiency, or just applied in e.g. battlefield context and explain the gaps in knowledge. As such I consider it fully historical (well, as long as it really does follow some degree of scientific approach - which Shad does).
Maybe lame of me, but by Wikipedia: "Martial arts are codified systems and traditions of combat". So.... if the moves were not codified or recorded by tradition, they may be part of combat/fighting, weapon history, but not a historical martial arts on their own.
...not sure if this makes sense.
@@polishFantasyEN I dont think that your boxing, karate, judo example is a good one. Because in HEMA people are not really confined to one system as well and nobody bats an eye, when you use talhofer techniques and liechtenauer in sparring, since both are sourced from history. But if you do stuff that you „developed yourself“ people might not like it too much, because a: it might not be save, or b: it might not work, orc: it is save and does work, but it is just a technique that was described in history, but you mirrored it from the treatises and now claim it was you who developed it. There might be a tiny chance, that somebody developes a technique that is save for sparring, works properly and was not described yet. And actually I have no idea what would happen then 😅
To go back to martial arts in general, I think that it is kind of ridiculous, to go around claiming you do martial arts, even though you have not been trained in any of the traditional martial arts, but just doing some fighting in your backyard with some friends.
Waiting.
@@jus_sanguinis But why wait? Check out the newest dane axe video, it's just a not-even-so-subtle, yet elegant and practical response in that topic.
Man talwar handles and guards are something special
Must be really weird to cut with when you try to apply european technique with it
The double entendre force is strong within this one lol. I'm genuinely impressed that Matt could, in an adultish sorta way, deliver those lines. There are runs of lines scattered throughout the vid that my toAzzaro 2zp- Z every time the guard got a good ol' fingerblasting, You could never possibly put the finger usee(
Fingered Guard: "Curved. Swords."
Those Redguards have all the fun :/
Matt Easton - HEMA expert / King of pun-worthy video titles.
Sometimes if you finger the guard, you don't even need a sword at all!
He just lets you in without a fight.
I don't know if helps at all, but tulwars were very, very often used with a dhal, so arguably fingering the guard wouldn't be that much of a danger(?) It could also make cutting and stabbing accurately around the shield easier, but perhaps that doesn't matter so much when it's a smaller and more dynamically used shield. I don't know, but those were my thoughts.
For such a cut-focused sword though, I'm not sure you get as much benefit.
It's not just a way to pass the time in the prison yard.
If someone drops the soap
I'm here for the innuendo...
I sense innuendos
What a drinking game scholagladiatoria is!
I'm curious whether fingering the guard was something a minority of Indian swordsmen did if they didn't like the standard, locked-wrist, draw-cut heavy style. Obviously most people didn't feel this way or it wouldn't be the standard system but I wouldn't be surprised if some people did.
Pointing the finger ensures the grip/control remains focussed on the disc pommel (drawing the sword via the pommel)... whereas a firmer grip by fingering the pommel could shift the grip forward. The other factor to remember is cultural - and the potential meanings that directly pointing an an opponent can have.
I love the innuendo in this.
This portuguese "Homens, Espadas e Tomates" by Rainer Daehnhardt is also very good like o also talk about many swords in India, and again its only the Sri Lanka that as that newer ones.
The brits avoid portuguese historical contributions with passion, it seems. And we let them.
@@Luso308 yeah it is oddinfact that the translation of portugese, spanish and italian accounts is not more actively done in english.. a pitty
That's an interesting title, did the portuguese threw tomatoes at the enemy?
@@macacofrito is saying this person as a lot of tomates. Like a guy bigger of testicles. Better in fighting.
@@Luso308 What a strange, deluded, persection complex you live.
I'd really kind of like to see a HEMA-adjacent video series on Indian swordsmanship. I'd want to know if it'd stand up to the modern tournament scene, like if you could go into a sword and buckler tournament with a tulwar using shastar vidya and still do all right, or if (either the old style or the modern interpretation) falls apart against the current meta.
*almost takes out the glass in china cabinet..* This is why you don't swing swords in the living room 😁
I can see that forward pointing finger getting hooked on things or just plain getting cut off because it presents a vulnerable extension.
I should also note that if you have a prior finger injury it may have been seized up and is unable to do anything other than point straight forward. I know someone with finger damage that has this type of damage.
ill try using this as innuendo with the gf
Innuendo. Isn't that an Italian suppository?
Ah, back to normality.
Is it more difficult to paint hands fingering the guard than a hammer fist?
The purpose of the disk pummel is to provide a large surface area to for back of the hand, in a slicing motion pressure is increased on the back of the hand, that is the main purpose of the pummel, try swinging the sword in a slicing motion a few hundred time without a pummel and see how your hand feels.
"I play both sides so I'm always on top"
Fascinating as always. I don't have any evidence or anything like that, but I wonder if you may be missing an important development: plate armour? Someone wearing a plate gauntlet is going to have a hand too big to fit an older, smaller, hilt once armoured, and since they're wearing plate on the finger perhaps they feel more confident in exposing their finger to possible harm?
It does rather look made for it, doesn't it?
Then again, how do you protect that finger? As soon as it shows up, it's a target.
Fascinating indeed.
It will just be a flesh wound.
@@sushanalone
No, it's not. Your finger's off!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carracks_black_sword The rings on this one would also be used to trap the oponents sword with a twist of the wrist. Both swords in lock the secondary weapon (dagger or stiletto) would actually do the killing, Very swift, efficient and dirty because the portuguese of the age were in a hurry to get those spices.
I think that, as always, it probably depended on the user - there's never just one way to skin a cat after all, and what one person finds practical and convenient, another person may find awkward. Hand size would probably be the major reason for adapting the grip, as you said, Matt, but perhaps there were other reasons as well - more tactical, technical ones?
A very interesting topic though, covered fairly and in detail as usual.
Cheers and take care!
+scholagladiatoria *"Fingering the guard" eventually led armorers to develop swept hilts for military arming swords.* The quillons were part of the grip style of certain sword schools, and finger guards evolved from the late Medieval ring-guards to a rudimentary cage around the ricasso as late as the early Baroque.
Great summary. The evolution of arms is fascinating. The only thing missing from this analysis is to view it side by side with the evolution of their respective armour as well, particularly with armed gloves. I've heard about an extra thick layer of plate over the index finger was common, however I haven't seen any evidence of it (and I can imagine fighting with one being a horrible game of chance ...)
I tried holding the finger like that with my sidesword once or twice. Can't say I felt any real increase in control. If anything it just hurt my finger whenever I had to stop the blade after a swing. I could see it with a thrust, but anything else, I'll use a hammerfist grip.
I absolutely love your comment section.
I love the double entendre, it's all part of the fun.
Fingering only possible with a forefingered gauntlet. Impossible with a clamshell or locking armour gauntlet. Similar control can be achieved with a forefinger loop beneath or inside of the and protected by the crossguard.
Guide on how to get out of prison
Matt: "let's talk about fingering the guard"
The guard: * *sweating profusely* *
Honestly, I can't imagine anyone fingering the guard on any sword like that Norman style one where the blade is sharpened all the way to the quillion. Instead of waiting for your enemy to slice off your finger, you'll just do it to yourself. The only way anyone would have done it historically is if they first ground off the edge there to make it nice and blunt.
"STOP RIGHT THERE YOU CRIMINAL SCUM"
- The Guard
It sounds like the sort of thing that should never be condoned in the British Army, that's all I can say.
They don't like it up 'em!
@@FeedMeMister What happens at Deepcut - Stays at Deepcut.
Always popular, never mentioned.
J WG actually mentioned a bit of what I was going to say, but the whole @8.23-ish, "...Laying your finger along the guard..." "Or pointing" with your strikes, was insisted as a legitimate technique in what was taught to me. In my case, Battou Jutsu/Kenjutsu/JSA. Funnie enough, I don't tend to follow said instruction, as I feel it's not secure and fails to aid in proper technique, but that is IMOHO....
But matt, pointing your finger along the guard will allow you to poke your enemy in the eye!
The shape of the crossguard on those tulwars looks ideal for hooking your finger over, almost as if it was designed specially for it...
Imagine how many fingers over the decades were lost to drive the development of the "fully developed" guard.
The convexity (not sure that's the right word to use) or back swoop of the blade of many Indian swords somewhat points to the preferred method of striking being a slashing stroke.
That being the case the incidence of the binding of swords down towards the pommel area may be greatly less regular when fighting in Indian styles of sword-fighting than when using swords that are straight or have much less convexity.
This is however only my opinion and theory and I give way to people who may have much more experience and/or knowledge on the matter.
My only claim to expertise is in physics, as a physics teacher, and other unrelated areas.
The closest I have come to evidence is I have read an account of a duel in not India but Iran of one combatant having their index finger severed. But does that mean it was over the guard or is just that their hand was struck?
theres pictures of people fingering the guard in iran.. and the iranian sabres are just modified versions of turko-mongol sabres which were used.. presumable with a finger over the guard in a mounted thrust. (some have angles on the grips, grip mounted lanyards and reinforced tips that counldnt be used any other way but to finger the guard) so id say older persian art might show some examples of guard fingering when the swords were still used alot on horseback againts people in armor.. but later with better guns the stabbing nature of the swords vanished and they became almost exclusively cutting arms.. thegrips grew and large pommels developed..
This should come with popcorn!
Naughty
How to finger and thrust effectively: A detailed study.
are there any stats of archaeological skeletal remains of bodies missing index fingers before the introduction of finger guards in Europe?
Don’t try it at the palace.
Though the Scots guard are tempting due to ease of access.
"Fingering helps with trusts"
We're on the wrong site aren't we?
So...about pointing the finger, could it be that you did not do that inline with the cross guard, but with the top of the hilt and than used like a trigger as you are about the hit the target? This is something many SCA fighters do as it helps in power generation...especially for cuts that are done with almost no travel to the target. Not sure if that works with those odd Indian hilts, but using an European sword with a stock Albion edge, I can go about a quarter to third of way through a tatami may from just the trigger pull (depending on the sword) and can go over half way though with a good edge. Of course, this generally used the top two finger and not just the top one...and it is curled loosely over the hilt instead of straight up pointing...but, something to consider maybe.
"Fingering the God" would make a good band name
Great video!
Love u bro from india 🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳
To be honest i don't use my ponty finger in my right hand when i lift stuff that mutch. my pointy finger is one of my weakest fingers.
I saw the title and I knew who made this video....
But whst is now better: Fingering the guard or fisting the grip?
I think extending the finger along the side of the guard not only has the same disadvantages, but also makes it an attractive target. I don’t think that’s really the case with fingering the guard, at least not to the same extent.
instructions unclear got arrested at Buckingham palace
Could you talk about grips and hand positions on swords with disk guards?
Ok, no lies how many times did you rewind @03:25 to watch him ping his ... Fireplace?
I think I was at 4 without counting the times to check if my time stamp was correct
Hm, yes, i understand..
It's basically one of the two ways of holding a table tennis racket
Various current Japanese and Chinese martial arts rely on the weaker 3 fingers for the main grip. I've often questioned this.
"why would you want to finger the guard" because the guard asked nicely 😂
was just about to say "why dont you add a ring for your finger so it can be protected" and he moves on to the "finger ring" lol GG
Just a comment for the algorithm
Matt discusses putting the thumb up the back quite a lot doesn't he
It is a bad habit. Like crossing hands when steering a car.
why did they used both rivets and glue instead of just 1 of them?
they did on some arsenal weapons owned by different indian sultans because the resin or alum ccan shrink or warp over time in storage.. youll see a brass pin drilled through the hilt. these are nearly all from military arsenals. privately owned generally dont have pins as really anyony can gwarm up the handle and reset the resin if there is an issue.
Why not put the finger ring under the quillon, especially on European swords? If the ring is there to get extra control and a better wrist position for thrusting, it makes sense to me that placing it under the quillon makes perfect sense on European long swords, or arming swords or bastard swords, if for no other reason than the fact that the grip of the hilt is going to be long enough to accommodate it (well, maybe not on the short hilted viking era swords).
Nice.
I was expecting a VERY different kind of video...
Oh well
Nothing like a type 19, ay kids?
Does fingering the guard reduce cutting power? It felt less powerful whenever I've done it, but that might be because I'm used to cutting with my wrist and fingers.
the blades of Indian swords were often foreign.
They were all foreign by definition. HA! Okay bye.
Depends on the time period. For most history India was a weapon making powerhouse and famous for exporting its weapons and steel. After the Germans started mass manufacturing weapon grade steel in the later part of the 16th century, they flood the Indian markets in another century and are a factor for decline of the Weapon smithing industry and possibly the tech to make wootz steel.
p.s. The British initially also put restrictions or bans on weapon making after the 1857 revolt and most blades were hence imported since then with permission. This could be another reason. Except for the Sikhs I do not know of many other Indian cultures that still forge weapons in the Indian way.
'There are various reasons one might want to finger the guard'😖😖🤣🤣🤣
Next up on "How I escaped prison".
So fingering the guard is a control tactic? Is it possible to finger the front and back at the same time?
no it would not help in any way. you do it to changethe point of balance and give more point control or more edge contol... you can even see people do it with edged tools. in borneo with parangs and ive seen it in the mediterranian with some types of billhook.
id guess the mongol and turkic nomads did it first and some old steppe swords have a blunt couver on the ricasso and such a guard AND have very canted downward handle forms... and reinforced tips.. and lanyards in the middles of the handle which would indicate a person gripping part of the blade to align the point. art of the time showing the mongols and their trukic cousins (1st century to 1400 century) is pretty much never painted by them and so lacks accurate detail.. most art is done by persians, arabs, tibetians, russians, chinese ect they employed who just gave every person a generic nomads arms, sword, bow. and lance. unlike european art where its painted by people close to the culture theyer painting and so includes such details as how a hand grips a sword in that culture. but id be confident that fingering the guard came about at around thesame time nomads began fixing lanyards to their swords.. so prior to the turco-mo gol sabres even appearing.. ie straight long single handed swords.. back in the iron age.. as these are starting to get guards that curve slightly forward and that combined with lanyards found in graves makes you thing they were gripling the guard in a thrust on horseback..
In the Indian Artwork shown @ 5:24, what arrow is that?
Matt do you know what came first, the knife ricasso or sword ricasso?
oooh matron
Without a finger ring, you could easily end up with a..."stubby index finger/Looking like a toad".
Is there evidence of any backwards grip to strike with the point forward like a falx?
Curved cavalry sabers are twisted over to present the false edge foward for the thrust.
there is one example here. www.reddit.com/r/ArmsandArmor/comments/br97m4/forward_curved_indian_subcontinent_sword/
But they are often temple swords associated with deities and armed with the idol . That does not mean necessarily they were used in battle. Yet they could just be exaggerated versions of common weapons , amplified to potray the power of the deity.
Notification Gang
Medieval bombs and hand grenades sometime?
🤠👍🏿
👍🏻
It only takes about as much force to cut through your finger as it des to cut a carrot
Indian sword super cool 😎 khanda. Tolwar hilt samser blaied.
Have you come across examples of indian bows?