Medieval Rondel Dagger - THE ORIGINAL
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- čas přidán 19. 09. 2022
- For as long as I remember I have loved the A726 Rondel dagger in the Wallace Collection. It is a beautiful and iconic dagger and an absolute favourite of mine, but they have also wondered how well they work, so I have made three films about this dagger and this is the second. There first film in this series "Making the rondel' can be found here • Medieval Rondel Dagger...
Luckily I got to handle and measure the dagger and luckily I have the skills to make one - so I did. In the first film you get to see every step of the manufacture.
This is the second and I take my dagger to the Wallace Collection and compare it with the original with Dr Toby Capwell and in the third I hand this dagger over to Matt Easton who mercilessly attacks fabric, mail and plate armour samples to see how easy or hard they are to defeat
You can find budget reproductions of this dagger here todcutler.com/collections/med...
The full range of Tod Cutler weapons, including swords, here todcutler.com/collections
Custom pieces like the dagger made here can be found on these pages todsworkshop.com or a Tods Workshop version here todsworkshop.com/collections/...
Leather work by Lisa Ellett
Music by J.Sayles
www.jsayles.com/familypages/ea...
You can find The Wallace Collection here www.wallacecollection.org
I would love to see an x-ray of the original. Combining the lack of peen with the line of thought that was voiced in the video about the florets and rivet being functional, I wonder if the rondels have collars on them that slide, tight, over the tang, and the rivet secures both rondels and the grip to the tang.
That is the kind of thing I was thinking, but I could not see how it could all be made to be kept tight and lovely even at the time let alone 600 years later. But I have just thought.....I was talking to an oak timber framer (husband of the the lady who made the leather for this) and he was explaining about offset holes to tighten joints and this could well have been done here, it was just a method I had not heard of or thought about. Basically if you have two outer plates and one inner one and make the holes very slightly not line up, when you hammer the pin through it pulls everything together. This could well work. Pain in the butt for what reason?, but it would work if done right
@@tods_workshop Is it possible the handle wood is actually two-piece and the decomposition has fused them together? Then the brass could be hiding the seam and the pin would make sense.
@@tods_workshop Could it be that the tang is peened only to the lower half of the upper roundel during construction and then the top half is only held on by the brazing? I.e. the peen is hidden inside it.
@@tods_workshop also, the gaps is armor tend to be horizontal in nature. Eye slots, neck opening, abdomen opening, etc…. Might explain the 90degree edge.
If the holes in the two tang ends were offset and oblong, the rivet being pounded through would bring the two pieces together against the wood very tightly. I’ve seen farm implements connected in this manner. Maybe that’s what they did?
At 5:37 Toby seems like he's very keen to test out whether the dagger is _"still as usable as it was 600 years ago."_ Worryingly keen.
had the exact same thing in mind, he felt a bit stabby, as we all would in that moment :D
Just paused the video to see if anyone else in the comments thought that too lol
London, innit.
@@rogerborg Going by Toby's accent it might be more a case _"LA, bruh"_
@@QuantumHistorian Actually, I think it's more "Canada, eh"
Tod, "That's as usable today as it was 600 years ago"
Dr. Capwell, slowly tightening his grip, "Mhmm..."
"who did you stab, my pretty"
I love the thought of the maker being proud that everything's still tight and functional so many centuries later, but also the thought of him saying "Oh no, why is THAT one in your collection!? I've done SEVERAL better than that!"
"Yeah, I mean I even put the handle on 90° wrong and that's the one you put in a museum?"
And in a way, even though we don't know who the artisan was, they have gained some small measure of immortality through this piece being interesting and well preserved enough to stick in the minds of those who have seen it up to the point you have people like Tod making replicas of their work to this day.
About the lack of visible peening, could the tang not be peened on the inner dish of the upper rondel, and its outer counter part braised on afterwards? Such that the peening is inside the upper rondel and so not visible. No idea if that would be a strong construction, but it's the first thing that came to mind.
This was my idea too, that the disc at the end was braised on after assembly.
that's my thought as well. I would even say that this construction would be "stronger", if that is for that rondel any concern.
That was my thought as well, but it would definitely be structurally weaker, I also feel as if it would be more difficult to make.
That was my immediate thought as well (along with many others I'm sure). My concern wouldn't be the strength but whether the braising process would do damage to the wood and brasswork of the hilt. Perhaps wrapping it in damp cloth of some sort would protect it from the heat enough.
Nice idea, but it would not be possible to braze it once the wood was in place
Always a pleasure to see Toby and hear his analysis.
I do love people getting together from different directions and particularly when I am involved - such a privilege to be able to discuss things like this with him
A cup of tea, a digestive biscuit and watching Tod and Toby discussing the technical niceties of punching large holes in total strangers. Lovely.
Well if that curator didn’t compliment Tod’s work, I certainly will. Tod, that’s a beautiful piece of craftsmanship and I believe any knight of the day would be happy to carry it into battle. Well done.
Thank you
I love collaborations like this - it is a history lesson, a documentary and a great ad for a museum.
Yup.. added to my list of places to go to, when I'm in London next year.
Can recommend. It's totally free to enter by the way, as is generally the case with London's museums.
Peening the first disk and than braising the second one on is possible but you will burn the wood...
The other option Tod said sounds more likely to me. Two overlapping half tang's (one pre fixed to the blade and the other pre fixed to the pommel) than held together by the rivit, but that raises questions of mechanical strength...
See the pinned comment, but yes I agree, but if the tang was like a channel or a tube that could work. Damn hard way to make a knife though for what purpose except keep guys 600 years later guessing
Could it not be soldered on with lead instead of brazed? That would lower the temperature and maybe the wood would not burn. Although I still cannot imagine how to do that with medieval technology.
@@tods_workshop sometimes someone does something solely to prove that it can be done :)
5:33 its as usable today as it was 600 years ago. Toby gripping the dagger with malicious intent.
Just want to say it was a delight to visit the Wallace Collection for the first time this weekend and I was blown away by the beautiful arms and armour, the level of workmanship on some of the pieces is truly astonishing. I think My 4 yr old son loved it even more! There is also a very striking recreation of King Richard the thirds armour near the entrance for which Toby Capwell acted as consultant.
Is the blade possibly angled for armour slits/eye slits and so is offset from the normal dagger for cutting?
This is quite an insight! Possibly!
I thought the exact same thing.
My thought was ribs are closer to horizontal than vertical, but I like your idea better.
I was wondering if the horizontal angle might have a parrying dynamic to it.
I know that sometimes in dagger defense, with a reverse or icepick grip, you lay the blade of the dagger across the forearm to better deflect or block blows coming in (from other daggers, sometimes with an opposed sword).
You see techniques like this in period treatises like Fiore, Meyer, etc.
With a horizontal angle, this would present the flat of the dagger blade across the arm instead of the edge (as opposed to the spine, or holding the wrist at an awkward angle to use the flat), making a party more comfortable and less likely to damage the edge.
It's a thought. Probably not (shrug)
Blade is angled for stabbing between the ribs, around the clavicle, and vertebrae. It’s easier to stab through these areas with a horizontally oriented blade, possibly; knife fighting literature teaches the horizontal orientation for this reason.
Medieval Cinematic Universe crossovers are always a welcome sight on my subscription feed.
Am I the only one who finds Toby's voice incredibly soothing?
Leo Fender-founder of Fender Musical Instruments-is known for occasionally including something on one of his instruments that he thought musicians would want but-being an engineer rather than musician-he was wrong about. And sometimes these things stayed in production for a surprising amount of time since they didn’t interfere with the functionality enough or at all. I’m wondering if the grip orientation on this dagger might be something similar. The creator didn’t know that he was putting the grip on oddly, but his customers didn’t care that much since it is still functional if a bit odd.
That is actually pretty damned insightful.
Considering these were for using close up and personal in plate armour, would a "horizontal" blade relative to the hand have been more effective when forcing the point between plates of armour - sliding flat up one and under t'other?
Home sick this week, been bingeing some of your content. Thanks. Always entertaining.
Awesome! Thank you!
Always a pleasure to see Dr. Capwell.
I see we all had the same idea for the pinning between the two rondels, but as you need to heat the rondels to braze them, for sure it could damage the wood handle.
Then I thought "look at this big cracking at the center of the handle just under the initial brass plate location. Could the handle have been made as two halves, finely glued together and maintened with the brass flower rivet?", but of course you could not put in place the brasse pieces in the dovetails by doing that.
It is pretty enigmatic!
You gentlemen are so lucky to be able to work and go to this museum anytime you want.
Tod is an actual Cutler! Excellent work.
Yes, hence the name of one of his companies, Tod Cutler!
These comparisons of your copies with the originals geek me out with noticing construction details that make us wonder "how did they *do* that?"
Thank you , Tod .
🐺
Theory on the construction, not sure how plausible it is:
There's actually two tangs, one from the blade, the other brazed in between the two caps on the rondel end, letting you have the completely smooth top. They sit next to each other inside the wooden part, and there is a hole in each one where those brass florets are hiding a pin to go through the whole thing. Misalign those holes slightly and you can get those two inner tangs both under a bit of pre-stress that will keep things from going anywhere when you hit the pommel.
Toby has got the best job in the land.
Excellent work, Tod, and Thank You to Dr. Capwell, you are a treasure and so very generous with your expertise of the collection.
The last time I was in London, the Wallace collection was one of my favorite things to see tbh
It’s great that collections exist that enable people to see the real deal.
seems to me the 90 degree edge alignment offset would be so it would slip through gaps in armor without too much thought. Grab and poke, this way it would align with gaps of the upper body more quickly.
I agree. Since many of the gaps in the neck/face area tend to be horizontal, being able to stab trough them with an ice pick style grip, without having to twist your hand quite as much or at all, seems like a great way to deliver more force and with less thought necessary since your blade is allready mostly aligned with the eye slit for example
Always great to see Toby on the channel.
After watching your video on making your version, and seeing the original. I'm quite impressed with both. That original is absolutely stunning. The craftsmanship of these old weapons always surprises me.
I don't know what I like more, the video itself or your excitement!
More Wallace collection and more Dr. Tobias!
Cant wait for part 3, its been very enjoyable so far.
Loved this ! Thank you for making this wonderful episode !
Wonderful to see the original A726. Is it just me or did the questions of construction, type of wood, etc. seem to resonate withToby's own curiosity? I'd love to see that work done.
This is turning into a great segment: the making it and then the comparing it to the original piece and later on the testing.
really cool series, thanks for putting all the additional work into it.
Loving this series!!!! Great work, gentlemen!
Thank you.
Always great to have Dr Toby Capwell in your videos, he is as passionate as you and the exchange between the too of you is super interesting.
Thanks
your videos just make my life so much better. thank you Tod
The Caucasian Qama dagger is primarily used for thrusting sideways (blade parallel to the ground). This way it can better penetrate the torso without getting caught up between the ribs. That dagger doesn't have 90º handle, but they optimized the grip by having tall rivet at the pommel for the thumb to press against. Provided how thick the blade is on this rondel, it can be operated sideways without any issues.
Given that this rondal dagger was likely for armoured opponents it is more probably rotated to align with gaps between plates, maille or eye slits. In my uneducated opinion.
Based instead on this Tod, Matt and Lindy shouting "CONTEXT" inside my noggin.
Fantastic!
Just watched the first part of this yesterday and then I discover this when I log on today, you love to see it!
seems there is always more to learn. thank you for sharing.
On the medieval one they peened the first piece onto the tang then brazed the second piece over that and cleaned it up. I've used a variation of that assembly on cooking knives I've made. I prefer to forge weld than braze but when you are joining large regions, it's very strong.
My copy of this piece turned up recently- lovely craftsmanship and fun to own!
From a bit of handling and my limited HEMA experience with dagger fighting, my theory on the rotated blade would be its to allow you to grip the spine easier.
Drawing the dagger in an ice pick grip, right handed, leaves you with the edge pointing "outwards" and the thick spin inwards. This is very easy and comfortable to then rest, steady or grip with your left hand, useful for techniques where the blade is being used to block, and to guide or push a stab through.
This would be much less convenient if the blade were aligned with the edge facing "downwards" in an ice pick grip, meaning the spine is facing upwards.
You nailed it Tod!
Both are beautiful. I liked the daggers too.
As always, I love a little mystery in history.
Excellent video. Thanks
Thinking of the rear rondel without the visible rivet. It seems to me that rather then attaching the two sides of the rondel and then riveting it to the dagger, they would have riveted the plate closer to the hand to the dagger and then used clamps to hold the back plate in position while they permanently attached the two plates together which would leave the River hidden I. The middle of the rondel
very interesting work Tod !
Assembly suggestion: The pommel end could possibly be brazed/soldered on by heating the end cup first. With it's opposite part already peened to the tang and tinned, that assembly could be lowered onto the end cup with minimal heating to the woodwork. The join would not be as strong that way, but as it would not be load-bearing it should suffice.
I suspect the cross pin and decorative rivet would be to prevent rotation of the wooden handle around the tang.
Keep 'em coming! - Vik
I would like to see that technique, as only way to heat metal was with the heat of forge. No fancy and precise torches. And for brazing to work, both touching metal must be at brazing temperatures. Those are far above burning point for wood. This technique would work, though, if only soft soldering was used, as far lower temperatures are used.
I believe the reason why the blade is turned to the side when its held by the handle is because the joints, the eyeholes and those types of items were horizontal, so by having the blade turned to the side when it was being held properly it was a way of helping ensure it was more effective on the areas it would be used to attack.
I can confirm from riveting aircraft that you absolutely will see the rivets against the metal, if a rivet was there.
For example, a bare metal P-51 Mustang. You can see every single rivet on that wing, but they are all countersunk and shaved flush, and then the whole wing polished with Fuller's Earth. You can run your hands across the wing and not feel a single rivet, but you can see them from 50 feet away.
That was fun!
maybe the 90-degree angle to the blade is for getting in the gaps of the armor easier. The flat can more easily get in the overlapping plates or some such
After reading some commenters' suggestions, I'm going to guess it's attached like a wedged tendon joint over the inner disc of the pommel, to avoid the high heat needed for peening. And then maybe the wood handle is wrapped with a cloth that's kept wet during the brazing of the outer disc to keep it from burning.
I like this museum guy.
You guys in Europe are so lucky to have the Wallace collection on your doorstep.
And to be honest so many others too. The Wallace is amazing, but it is not unique in being amazing for stuff like this
@@tods_workshop True, I visited the tower of London before the millennium, I think it was anyway. Blown away by the set of elephant armour. We have some decent collections of fairly modern stuff here in Australia, the Armour collection in Queensland is pretty awesome if you're interested in tanks, but next to nothing over 150 years old apart from some very interesting Aboriginal items and art works, some even 40,000 years old...
Very interesting thank you very much.
You can wrap the grip in a wet cloth and braze the top disk on by setting it on a charcoal block and braze with a blowpipe and snips of solder sandwiched between the disks and wire the assembly together with copper wire temporarily, the way jewelers still braze and solder at the bench.
As a knife maker I would love to get a higher level of detail. Things like stock thickness and details about blade geometry. I would love to know more about construction.
I assume that the pommel was brazed on. I believe they had the ability to do that with bronze or other non ferris.
The only reason I can think of that is non decorative for the brass decoration mid handle would be to pin it. I could see that if you do the peen so that it can't be tightened then there could be a need to make sure the handle stayed firm if the wood contracted and a single pin would fix it firmly in place. I don't know how the handles were normally constructed but if the super guard was compressed somewhat it would be able to ride with the expansion and contraction. Perhaps this was the reason for the meathod given that there would be a fair bit of movement.
Considering that the wooden grip is made out of a solid piece, I don't think it would be possible to braze the rondel with the grip on, it would completely burn both on the outer and the inner side facing the tang
Hi Tod, I am not as experienced and good knifemaker as you, but since watching this I've been thinking about how I would make a rondel with hidden peen and I think I have found a way it might have been done even with medieval technology (I haven't tested it in my workshop yet, I will if I get the time).
1) Braze the rondel before assembly just as you have done, but with the outer dish without a hole.
2) Cut the end of the tang to length so that when it is all assembled, there is no play left.
3) Cut the end of the tang lengthwise for a few mm - the length that it will be inserted into the rondel.
4) Make a small steel vedge so that when inserted into the cut of the tang it would spread the forked ends to a width ~ 1 mm more than the hole in the tang.
5) Put the vedge into the forked end of the tang, put the rondel over it, and hammer it down. The vedge spreads the fork so it locks tightly the whole assembly together just like a peened rivet would.
Yes, could do. But.... first, it's likely without bonding like brazing the wedge in place, it would eventually rattle loose. Second, it would be easier and more efficient to just hammer over, in opposite directions, the two parts of the fork. Sort of a "T" rivet head, rather than Tod's circumferential peening. And the issue still exists of the brazing on the other half of the rondel without burning the wood. :)
I have an idea on how the end cap roundel was put on. But it would be impossible to tell without an x-ray. If we consider it most likely being French there is a fair chance the handle while it appears solid is not, and in fact the surviving brass strip is a cap that sandwiches the tang, and the brass inlay that was dovetailed in was to conceal this fact, and eventually fell off as unlike the other it was not secured with the through rivet. This would allow for the handle to be secured after the roundels were braised.
@tod’s workshop to clarify what I’m on about the wood is one piece still but it’s got a slot cut.
Freaking awesome brother! Thank you!
The handle being perpendicular to the edge alignment is probably a function of the target having plate protection on the facing surface, and the stabbing action looking for penetration going sideways or at a sharp angle in from a gap in the armpit or ribs, rather than straight-on to the front.
I started my rondel, it’s got synthetic handle materials though. It’s gonna be in some rough places and I just want as little oxidation on it as possible so the only metal parts will be the blade and pommel nut.
I got my Tod's Workshop rondel dagger today, about an hour after the video published. Love it. Tod, maybe Matt Easton might have a reason the grip is "off"?
I love this channel!
Im thinking the offset of the blade to handle is for a few reasons: 1 When leaning over someone you have more side to side stability than forward and backwards, so getting the blade to 'bite'/puncture in a fashion that helps with forward and backwards stability makes sense; 2 I imagine that a sideways blade is more likely to slip to the side rather that forward or backwards, so less likely to throw off your balance in a dramatic fashion, and probably reduces the chance of stabbing yourself, 3 extending from the slipping concept, it seems likely that they would have the sharpened edge facing away from the 'steering' arm, allowing the 'driving' arms force to be delivered more down the spine of the blade not the edge of the blade, I'm thinking this would increase the chance of the blade puncturing the armour and not glancing off.
Great video, superb craftsmanship.
In the subject of the grip and blade configuration, the simplest answer for that seems to be, this way the spine of the blade, the only part that can be banged on all day long, is naturally pointed against opponent's attack angles. I thing this is the only/primary reason, why the blade and grip ware been done this way.
Yes you could braze it on when finished. And the wood could be two pieces. When we cut wood today the saw removes some wood making seams obvious, BUT in medieval times they would split the wood allowing for a seamless look. In this case it is a two pice handle and you can see the seam under the missing brass plate and the construction of peening only the inner disk with washer is stronger than going through both due to the ability for the disk to collapse. It’s just common sense for the handy.
Tod didn’t follow the proper build procedures using split handle.
Curator: It was found in France
Tod: That horrible thought never entered my mind
Looking at what it is designed for, its as much a pry bar as a dagger 🗡️ maybe it's 90 degrees off because it's designed to lever armour apart while you get in there with the point. Also, with the ending rondle it's been piened and then brazed to prevent a hot spot when pushing the dagger with your palm.
Pretty cool..
Any rivet at the handle is not kind to bare flesh in use. So, this strongly suggest the user always wear gloves or gauntlets. The rivets help to prevent the blade twisting in the user's hand when in use. This suggests the user may twist the blade while it is in the target or when engaged with other instrument. The end plate is better fixed by Todd's construction.
Tod: that's as usable today as hundreds of years ago.
Toby (menacingly grips the knife): mmmhuh.
On the edge alignment and the handle shape being off. I think that possibly with rondels being used to get between plates of armor having the flat aligned with your arm would aid in being able to pry into an opening having it be a more effective lever.
What a mysterious and interesting piece. I bet your viewers would be happy to donate to the Museum to fund the X-ray and other analyses of it. My immediate thought was that the handle is a retrofit or requested change. It seems unlikely that any craftsperson is going to accidentally put the handle on that way, 90 degrees off edge alignment. And it seems unlikely that they'd just make a weird, undesirable piece to have on the shelf for someone to buy. But supposed the eventual dagger owner asked for the handle to be modified to have it rotated out of some personal battlefield preference. Presuming it was made normally with the tang peened on the back rondel like Tod did, the tang would be too short to fit the hand after removing the back rondel. So, the craftsman makes a second tang to re-extend the length, peens it in before brazing the back rondel together, and then grinds and joins the two inside the handle with that fleureted rivet.
Interesting. I would try it with several period gloves including metal ones to see how that handle works with them.
The joining with the rivet is interesting too, but honestly does not seem very secure or stable with just one rivet.
Love this!! X-Ray that thing!
Possibly, the end rondel was made like a large nail head. After the front rondel was fitted, substantial tang stock would be permanently flattened.
Could explain why replaceable handles, had to be clamp riveted on.
I think the handle orients the flat of blade to attack eye slits in helmets and other gaps in plate armor.
Toby has a dream job...
The guy in the dark blue shirt is awesome and hilarious, in a good way.
I can make countersunk pins invisible.. to others. I can see the difference in the grain even if its the same parent metal. That one has patina obscuring so I wouldn't count it out. They could've put the head in the inner disc too and then brazed the top disc over to conceal it. Wet rags will keep it cool enough around the handle and blade.
Todd: "That's as usable today as it was 600 years ago."
Curator: *Grips handle firmly.* "Mhm..."
Awesome comparison. Do you think the pinned the tang to inside of the outer rondel? Maybe solder the two last domes with lead and hot copper rods?
I first saw the full "Making of" video and now this, "The Comparison". Thus eagerly waiting for part 3 - "The X-ray and wood analysis" and part 4 - "The Proper Stabby Test" (with the new version of course). Also, I wonder what the weight difference between those might be and what (if anything) that might tell about materials and the effects of centuries of corrosion.
i hope they can scan it to find out. my guess is the bottom rondel has some sort of sleeve or bracket which interfaces with the blade tang and the grip covers this. either that or it must screw on somehow but that would seem to be less secure and surely a threaded screw system would have loosened up after all these years.
Regarding the 90° rotation of the blade, could it have to do with how to best get into armour gaps, and in particular into a visor (just as some rapier systems prefer to lay the edges horizontal rather than vertical because it penetrates better between ribs)?
Very Interesting 🤔
It would be interesting to see if it was perhaps formed initially from forging. As if its a nail construction then domed, though that may have been far too complex especially back that.
Cool vid again.
I think original pummel has extension down to guard. It's pinned to the handle with the pin or 2 pins in middle. In that case you get not only beatifull but also more rigid and strong construction as there is 2 times more metal in the handle and can be more reliable when pushing dagger with all weight of body.
Two possibilities on the bottom discs. 1) The top piece was peened on then the bottom piece was braised. 2) The bottom guard has a tang and the blade has a tang and the decorative piece is holding both together tightly.
My bet is that the bottom is just screwed down with some locktite on the threads. It's probably joined by the base slipping over the top and then as you suggested the decorative piece hides the bolt.
Wonderful stuff Tod. You could have made a 4hr version and I'd have watched it.
I love the idea of Toby, Tod, Matt, and other guests going for nights out. Er- Knights out?