Water Resistance of Paper Shot Shells (1923 Mythbuster Episode)
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- čas přidán 19. 03. 2023
- Paul tests something seen in the TV show 1923.
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I have been informed that the gun in the show was not a shotgun, but a double barreled rifle with brass cartridges. As I said, I didn't see the show. However, it was still an interesting experiment.
What shotgun did you use for this video?
I guess Brass cartridges would probably fare a bit better. Particularly if the bullet is crimped, and they put sealer both on the primer and over the mouth of the cartridge where it meets the bullet.
That doesn't change the fact that the experiment was informative.
The funny part is, this disproved an episode of A-team where they live because the paper cartridge cant fire
go figure, I see this AFTER I commented... 😒😒😂😂
There is nothing I love more than seeing Paul run into the ocean like the intro to an 80s cop show
Paul in a speedo when?
@@chase_h.01 No, that thought is now in my brain and I'll never sleep again!
I can't believe he wasn't out of breath
That's a bit weird 😳.
@@markchapman2585 he is a fit not-too-old person, I'm ready to bet he can still run circles around most people
Now that we know the paper shells work, I'm curious how well seashell shotshells from the seashore work.
How about razor sharp coral ?
Soaked seashell shotshells from the seashore shall shoot safely, I'm sure. 😃
@@pulaski1 Now try to type it 3 times fast!
You mean, she sells shotshells by the seashore.
Sheesh...😅😅
That sea water won the Paul Harrell prize, specially selected from the sea, peppered with shotgun ammo and left forever in a plastic tub in the Oregon wilderness
Can we plz take a moment to appriciate now much effort was put in this video? Collecting seawater looks easy, however for Paul it is another story. The sheer site of Paul in his swimshorts made the ocean pull back miles. Normally the place were the video was shot was well under water however due to panic and fear the ocean tried to escape...
the ocean recoils in fear of Paul, as he should
The ocean is actually all contained inside his shooting jacket. Like a world in a world.
@@mattschmitt9924 All of the above is true, and at the same time. It is still being investigated among theoretical physicists as to why, but a general consensus is starting to form that the presence of Paul Harrell does indeed bend the very laws of the universe. Positrons become electrons when he draws a Taurus Judge. Uranium is enriched to pure U-235 in the earth below him when he proves a troll wrong. Fusion is spontaneously created by his mere proximity.
Is it just me or was anyone else hoping for the biggest sneaker wave of all time?
Yes running while carrying 5 gallons if sea water! Haha
Only Paul Harrell would drive to the coast, wade into the surf, and collect seawater for an experiment! True dedication.
Paul never disappoints! ...in shorts, running out to the surf, collecting 5 gallons of sea water then running back is priceless! Thank you Paul! R, Steve
While Paul was out getting the seawater, I started to reply various Monty Python's Flying Circus beach scenes in my head; I expected John Cleese to be sitting in the surf behind his BBC desk ending a phone call, hanging up, and saying "And now for something completely different."
Almost felt like an art house movie
What insane person goes in the ocean with shoes and socks
I can certainly appreciate Paul's efforts, especially considering that he's basically going to have to completely disassemble the shotgun for cleaning, to ensure he gets rid of all the salt and minerals from that seawater.
It's a double barrel. Not much disassembly to be done. Your point stands though
Probably oiling the barrel after every shot string.
10/4 Michell not a chance I’d do that to my gun ! Yeah they will swell after being exposed to high humidity for long periods of time I’ve had one to do it after it got rained on and left in a shell vest a month or so .
Can we just step back and look at the lengths he went to make this video. He went to the beach (how far is that for him?) to get REAL sea water. I am impressed.
Anyone else would just have used a box of salt and tap water.
Lincoln City is on the ocean. I am just wondering why the Pacific didn't run away........
Instant ocean synthetic sea salt.
He lives in Oregon so it's a relatively short trip. Faster than for people in states that don't border the ocean anyway, it's still a big state
Making this movie allows him to write off a beach vacation on his taxes.
You'll need to use a box of sea salt and weigh the salt and water to achieve the concentration of 35 parts per thousand.
I've done some hunting with paper shells, and since game isn't all that abundant I wound up carrying the same shells for several hunting trips. Often in the rain.
My experience is that if the wax gets rubbed off from carrying the shell in a pocket, the water resistance goes way down. They typically go bang anyways, but can swell enough to be hard to chamber. Also, I once had a damp paper shell act like an accidental cutaway slug; instead of the crimp opening to release the shot, the paper tore behind the wad and half the shell went downrange more or less in one piece.
that's sort of what I expected would happen only in my imagination the primer would seperate the paper from the brass and the entire paper body, with wet powder+shot would squib.
thanks for that info about the wax too, I was wondering if they were coated with something.
It's been almost 50 years since I used paper shells. While I was watching this I was saying to myself, "Yes, they're paper, but coated in Wax." And I am old enough to have had all my school lunches packed in wax paper, and waterproofing my boots with wax.
Thanks for reconfirming my memory.
@@stans5270
Did they use wax or a lacquer? And it's been 50 years since I shot a paper shell. Heck I remember when when some shooters were wondering about "them new fangled plastic shotgun shells".
@@mpetersen6 I've always used plastic shells, but occasionally collected empty paper hulls from the field in my youth. I'm pretty darned sure they were lacquered, but I suspect there's a pretty good chance they were lacquered and waxed. I'm thinking it would be far easier to seal the business end of the shell with wax than lacquer.
(I honestly wish I could start shooting paper shells now... I'm pretty good at collecting my hulls, but there have been plenty of occasions where I couldn't find one, and the paper shells are going to break down a lot faster than the plastic ones... not to mention all the plastic wads I've put out into the field.)
I can always rely on this channel to answer questions i didn’t even know i had.
I like that Paul is a skilled presenter that when I start noticing something, like the left barrel snagging a lil bit, he times it perfectly with "Oh by the way you might notice that..." and explains it
The lengths you would go to Paul are outstanding. You're the best gun channel hands down.
The " shotgun " in the show 1923, a spin off of the Yellowstone series is actually a Big Game double Rifle, as the character was in Africa. The cartridge are brass.
Thank you, literally just came here to say exactly that
Remember, he hasn't seen the show, and is simply going off of what he's heard
Wild how such an interesting video originated from a silly misunderstanding.
Yup. Double rifle. Express rifle. Like 416 rigby. Good show BTW. I recommend it.
When I read Hemingway's Islands in the Stream, the Main Character kept a Mannlicher Rifle on his boat for sharks
Paul,
Great demonstration I have to say I was surprised at the results. Incidentally I watched the show 1923. It was a side by side dangerous game rifle. (Like a Holland &Holland) the caliber was a big bore straight wall brass case. Not depicted to be a shotgun. Thank you for what you do.
Watching the beautifully filmed Oregon beach and surf opening scene brought back a memory from a family vacation more than sixty years ago. My little brother, then only three years old, had never seen anything like Pacific Ocean surf. After watching for a while, he asked why it just kept on ‘flushing and flushing?’
Also, thanks for the demonstration of the utility of well-made paper shotshells: Those old-time bees produced good wax, and our dads and grandads seem to have known how to use it effectively.
He should do a bunch more vids on waterlogged ammunition. Even modern ammo. Im curious
I offered to donate some ammo I had that was submerged in flood waters during hurricane Ian, but he refused over safety concerns.
Not sure I blame him.
Yes
sealed premium ammo vs nonsealed, like old type of critical duty's that was sealed with red paint, and new without it. it will need more time, like a week under water
Yes.
Are the new plastic any better? :D
It all works
The last time I saw Paul in the water was the episode where he is in this pond, barechested and slapping the water with a spatula...lol
I've been in the ocean in Oregon in August. Water was 60 degrees. Felt like it was 40. I can't imagine how cold that felt. Props to you sir for another excellent video
I've felt the water in Monterrey, CA in June and it's not exactly warm there, either. That had to be a chilly dip filling that jug.
Yeah the Pacific Northwest coastal beaches are never warm when it comes to water.
60 degrees on the Oregon coast is considered warm... water or air LOL
I've been in there when the water was a bit colder than 60. Took a few minutes before my bare feet became acclimated.
I was in La Pine, Oregon, on a hot summer day, dangling my legs in a river coming off the east side of the Cascades. That water was painful even after 15 minutes. Finally gave up and pulled my legs out of the water. It was way colder than the Pacific.
I was in Seattle in June five years ago. Just the wind coming off the ocean was too cold for me. Had the same experience further south at San Fran bay and Monterey area. I couldn't wait to get back to the Midwest.
As a partially disabled fan, watching him jog out of the surf with (probably) 40+ pounds of water in his hand was inspiring!
A gun writer visited the Federal plant up in Minnesota where they still make paper shells. It was 2 or 3 guys using 75 year old equipment. One phase was putting the hulls into a vat of paraffin at a set temp for something like 24 hours. That would waterproof them!
That explains some of the paper shells that I've handled. They didn't feel like 'paper' at all.
If it's just 3 guys who know how to do it, why do they still work for Federal? They should set up to do it themselves and keep all the profits!
@@edgarburlyman738 Federal isn't the only current maker of paper shotshells, several European brands also have them available.
I have an old box of federal 16 gauge shells I inherited from my grandfather. They are in good shape and I've kept them for nostalgia. Good to know they probably still work.
@@edgarburlyman738
Costs of tooling. Manufacturing space. Possible Federal licensing requirements for ammunition manufacturers. Age? Maybe they are three old farts. Limited market?
Actually in the 1800s given the issues they had with drawn brass cartridges for a while I'm kind of surprised there weren't more centerfire pistol and rifle ammunition made with paper cases. It is my understanding that it was tried but the issues with drawn brass didn't take that long to figure out. Mostly a problem of alloy used iirc.
Im surprised that none of the cartridges malfunctioned. Your point about their functionality after they have been out of the water for a day, week, etc., is probably where they will end up failing. Great video.
This is the best test I could have asked for. I believe 1923 was also the year Winchester Staynless (non-corrosive, non-mercuric) primers started being used. The original Staynless primers were less chemically advanced than later primers, and the US Army thought they were too vulnerable to moisture during storage, resulting in less than satisfactory reliability. The primers in your old shells were probably better than 1923 primers, but I doubt the difference would matter for an hour of time submerged.
Every Paul Harrel Pop Tarts ad is pure gold.
Paul Harrell videos -- where a man belongs.
We can add Beach Model to Paul's already impressive resume.
Ok here’s a little update on what I could find for anyone that’s interested . By 1895 waterproofing paper hulls were quite effective when Eley produced the Pegamoid case. This featured five layers of paper, bonded with water-resistant adhesive. Later on in the 1960s Remington introduced plastic cases and Eley started selling a plastic-cased version of the Grand Prix in 1974. They soon became the craze outselling paper case sales. Still up and help me with my World War I reference and I do remember there was an issue with shotgun shells in the trenches still looking. Although could be possible that I got everything completely wrong but I do believe that after World War I they change the construction of shotgun shells. might’ve just been military though.
Could be some sort of combination of a pump action shotgun and a muddy trench on top of the paper shells that caused issues in ww1, or maybe just bad batches of ammo. I think c&arsenal did a video on the Winchester 1897 that went more in depth on the use it saw in ww1.
The things Paul does for us to bring the great content.
Great appreciation ... thanks Paul.
It's like all the ingredients of a cake, but just not quite stirred up and baked together.
ASMR of crashing waves on a beach, report of a shotgun, and Paul's Shatner-esk style of talking.
So soothing and calming. To bad you can't shoot on the beach _legally._
*esque
♪ Skeet shootin' USA! ♪
@@Stevarooni I don't know if getting Val Kilmer to collaborate with Paul would be a good idea
Thanks for making the Water Resistance of Paper Shot Shells video.
THIS is why I subbed to this channel. Paul and crew are not afraid to go the extra mile. Sometimes literally. 👍
Fully expected Paul to come back with a bottle of sea water in one hand and dragging a shark by the tail in the other.
They circle respectfully in the background just like his deer.
I've paper shells from the 30's that still works. Good presentation.
Good to see Paul again. When he ran out of the sea with the jug and said "I got the sea water lets go to the range!" I died.
I'm kinda surprised the ocean didn't recede rapidly - "advance in an opposite direction" - as he approached.
@@gottadomor7438 me too man
His jog there, and waterlogged jog back was one hell of a flex too.
As I recall, back in the day, around the mid-60s, moisture problems were often more pronounced with empty shells awaiting reloading - especially if they had been sitting around for awhile - like in a damp basement or garage. I also recall that was around the time when there was a transition between fiber wadding and plastic cups - with the plastic being more forgiving. I wouldn't have thought a shell would still function perfectly after a long time under water. Great video - thanks so much.
Makes a lot of sense.
Paul Harrell running on the beach is something my heart desperately need and now has.
We will never find another channel with Paul's disposition, he INDEED collected seawater just for the sake of the video
you just know that a generic channel from leviathan would not even come close to his genuine way to educate us.
I have watched the show but if memory serves me correctly he did not have a shotgun but rather a double rifle for African hunting. Good content none the less.
What impresses me the most about stuff like this is that Paul doesn't assume anything. It would have *seemed* obvious (to me anyway) that this wouldn't work. Rather than put forward a similar opinion, Paul actually went and did a real-world experiment, and figured out I (and presumably others) was wrong...
Well I was pretty certain that I knew what the outcome of this video would be. Since I've hand loaded since the mid 70's. But Paul's commitment and the effort that it will take to clean this shotgun and even other stuff associated with this video is crazy to my old mind, down here on the seacoast. Thank you, Paul.
Now here's a topic that never crossed my mind. Another excellent video, as always!
Oh I thought it crossed everyone's mind? We're always concerned about wet, corroded, musty ammo and ammo storage, which ammo box is best and what conditions it will be stored under to ensure it stays functional. I thought this was a topic of concern to all gun geeks.
@@Hjerte_Verke It is, but not specifically with paper shotshells.
One phenomenon rarely reported is with stee shotl shotgun shells. It has happened that steel shot, if exposed to moisture, can rust and fuse the shot together. This essentially turns the shot into a steel slug. Old gun magazine article.
I came up at the end of the waxed paper shotshell era. New shells were all plastic but there were tons of older paper shells around. Never had a problem with either paper or plastic. The paper shells were thick and impregnated with wax. We often did have concerns about reloaded shells because you can't reproduce the factory crimp. Still, I don't recall a single problem.
I like sunsets, poetry and long walks on the beach with Paul Harrell
I would've believed you if you just said it was seawater, that's commitment to cause. Thanks for the content.
We all know he switched the cans off-screen! 😅
I was half expecting Paul to just dive straight into the water after he ran out there, lol.
That was a nice touch: wearing socks into the ocean! No sacrifice is too small. 👍🏻
Love it Paul…having watched 1923, I’m pretty confident it was a double-barrel safari-style rifle though. Not a shotgun. Great show!
Love the pop tarts intro!
Episodes just keep getting better. Excellent content.
I love your dry sense of humor Paul.
Your videos are always fantastic and educational.
*_IRON MAN PAUL HARRELL!_** That is some pretty chilly water this time of year, out there, as I recall.*
should've added some Baywatch music to you running back, Paul! Great video.
The character in 1923 is a guide and big game hunter in Africa. The weapon he has is a double rifle, not s shotgun.
It would be an amazing twist if Paul was a lifeguard stunt double from the old Baywatch show.
I fucking love Paul man. Anyone else would've cut this video down to nothing with a cut every 10 seconds. Not Paul. He leaves the full sequence of him getting the sea water and coming back. Cinematic genius. And the Pop Tart ad **chef kisses**
Man, that ocean looked cold. What dedication!
Fantastic. Your dedication of running into the surf in Oregon, in winter, reflects great credit upon yourself and is in keeping with the highest traditions of your channel.
On a side note I can confirm that paper shotshells dropped into a watery ice chest for a quick second, will indeed work as hoped.
That water is warm enough for us natives, this time of year. Been there many times and usually get used to the cold water after a couple minutes. Then it's fine.
Paul probably has a ton of AAMs
imma be real with you in my few years of watching paul this man has never been wrong
This was very interesting and something I've never thought about. Really enjoy and appreciate your informative and knowledgeable videos, Mr. Harrell.
That's not a shotgun in the show. Its a double rifle but it's fine. My wife and I were talking about wondering if the cartridges were still water tight so this is still relevant. Good demo.
I thought the same thing. Not a shotgun- it was a double rifle. Whoever asked this question obviously didn’t look very closely…. 🤦♂️
Every anime has a beach episode, and now we do too. Bless you Paul.
That openning reminded me of "the fall and rise of Reginald Perine", a great old BBC show
Very interesting results. I would not have thought they would have performed that well in salt water. Thanks for the video 🙂
I got caught in a heavy rain once while out with my .22. The ammo got wet and started to have about a 50 percent misfire rate. I went home, the ammo sat in a closet for a year then I tried it again and it worked.
As a general rule none of us mind taking the long way through your videos. However thank you for not having us sit through the soak intervals.
We trust you to do this honestly.
I have been waiting all season for the Paul Harrell beach episode! It didn't disappoint
The beginning reminds me of a Monty Python sketch.
His dedication is inspirational
Great video. Thanks Paul !
Interesting video, I am 74 so used a lot of paper shells back in the day, of course I never submerged them in sea water but living in England they did get wet regularly and I never had a problem but I have seen old paper shells that have swollen after damp storage. For several years I carried matches in a paper cased 16 gauge shell inside a paper cased 12 gauge shell they fit together better than plastic shells.
Just when you think PH couldn't get more badass - he goes swimming in the ocean in winter!!! Respect 💪
That water is COLD year round, but yeah Paul is a badass...
@@ratroute8238 yea and that surf is not to be taken lightly as well, those waves can do a number on you even in normal temp water! I gotta give it to the man he is a warrior - humble too and that is Badass!
But Paul, you need SUEZ CANAL seawater! Love your channel!!!
17:15 The sound of these shells going off is epic. Great acoustics location.
I have never thought that I will live to see the day Paul Harrell will be wearing the Doug demuro special
Excellent video! A good follow up would be how long underwater before some shotshells fail, and how long before most fail. Also, the depth underwater may affect the time to fail (deeper underwater means higher pressure and the water will seep in faster). I suggest a similar test but deeper underwater, perhaps 5' and also 10' deep in a swimming pool. Salt water Vs fresh water affects how quickly it corrodes, but water ingress may be similar. Of course, no one should trust personal protection to ammunition that's been underwater, but it sure is interesting to learn what happens! Great work Paul, thank you.
Ammo makers hawk their pro ammo sometimes advertising having sealing for moisture resistance even today, even brass handgun rounds.
Would be interesting to see how they fare in a magazine fed gun. The reason shotguns were pretty terrible in ww1 was apparently due to the cardboard ammo. Granted, the shells you shot are much older and waterproofing should have improved over the decades. Also I imagine in the shells would spent more than just an hour in wet conditions in the trenches.
I *though* I heard something about them using alll brass shells because of that
Paul is showing off his best 1980s Soldier of Fortune magazine ad photo in that intro.
Awesome video, Paul. Thanks for all the hard work you do.
This has got to be one of the most underrated channels on CZcams. Thanks Paul for all you do
not really underrated at all. but nice try
And "underrated" has to be the most over used word in the YT comments.
Great video but they were not shot shells in the show ,it was a double rifle elephant gun in some very large caliber. But again great topic and video
Looked like .450 Nitro Express
@Bernie EOD looked like it to me too but you know what happens when you say the wrong thing on the internet.
As I said, I didn't see the show.
@Paul Harrell Maby you can do outher ammo myths and old wives tales as a regular topic. Would love to hear your unique take on the subject 😀
You are awesome.
You are always well worth the watch.
You made me cry laughing with the oooops.
Thanks for all your efforts.
Thanks Paul. Another amazing video!
I must admit I was surprised by the results. I've read many times that in WW1 the paper shotshells were problematic limiting the effectiveness of shotguns. However, it's entirely possible (IMO likely) that shells stored in a damp environment for weeks or months as trench gun ammo would have been would show very different results.
I heard the issue was that the rounds would deform or swell up so they wouldnt reliably chamber in a pump action shotgun.
having it sit in water for an hour is very different than it sitting in humid places like the pacific or WW1 trenches
@@WayStedYou exactly. Still, I didn't expect it to survive the one hour soaking.
Paul have you ever considered testing 5.45x39 and comparing it to 5.56?
This would be really nice!
Or 7.62x51 vs 7.62x54r
Paul, i enjoy and learn a lot from all your videos…keep up the great work!
I love that Paul shows uncut the collection of the water so no one can jump in and say he didnt do it
Hey Paul, I remember some time ago you tested cut shells, but have you ever tested split point bullets? Like the kind you cut out yourself? I've found them kind of interesting, but have found almost no real world data on them, like what they are actually doing to a target. It might be a neat idea for a video. I shoot alot of hand load 38 special and 357 loaded with cast flat point projectiles and always wondered if I could make a viable round for taking deer at close range in heavy brush.
This is a great idea, although it may be a legal hurdle, especially given laws that are being passed in the pnw
@@DyslexicTurtle Ah yeah, forgot about the problem in Oregon. Not sure if "modification" of ammo is somehow in the law.
@@DyslexicTurtle OR 114? Or is it another thing?
We have some rules about "modifying ammo" in this format, so I have been reluctant to do a presentation on this subject.
And no, I don't know how Turdfladermouse gets away with it.
I have tried drilled out and drilled and cross topped lead round nose 190gn .452. Drill diameter was 1/8". Depth was matched to a .44 cal 240gn cheap shot, approx 1/8" deep. I was using a cap and ball 1858 8" remington with 30gbv of 777 3f with #11 magnum cci caps. Target was 3 inline gallon jugs full of water. I made 3 of each. None of them expanded or fractured beyond the normal performance of said round nose.
When I get a chance I'll try this in my 50 call muzzleloader, to see if velocity changes anything. I will use sabots so as to be able to use the exact same round nose hard cast bullets.
Please do an episode on what firearms you would carry if Escape From Portland was a John Carpenter film.
Lol what
Outstanding as always.
Great presentation Paul, but I have one question...what about other types of modern shot shells like slugs and European roll crimped style of shells? There was a CZcamsr who specifically said slugs and other shot shells with the roll crimp were not his fancy to use in Alaska because they are not water proof. I question it, as I've hunted with my 870 in snow storms, rain, ect, and I've never had a shell of any kind that would not fire when I needed it too and this also includes shells exposed to the elements that were on the side saddle of the shotgun. May be something worth a dive into if you have the time, I'm sure I'm not the only one who's curious. Thanks!
Roll crimps and slugs are indeed not watertight, and if you submerge them they are likely to fail. A little moisture probably won't hurt them, but I bet the powder will get wet if exposed to water too long or dropped underwear for a little bit. A little wax added to the end under the roll will probably fix this problem.
I’ve got money down on someone complaining about Paul picking a round up off the ground and firing it… 🍿🍿
I don't think I've ever seen him drop something on accident.
@@wettoasterman and maybe it wasn’t this time!
Great job Paul. As always.
Pauls info and training tips are second to none. Thank you sir.
Paul is such a chad pop tarts need to sponsor him if they don’t already
Please test some level 3+ plastic body armor! I find the light weight highly compelling. Also, how likely is armor to save you from someone sending a few rounds your way at a distance? Thanks.
I can tell you one of the armors weakness. Any projectile with even a mildly hard core will cut clean through. Such a m855 green tip. Even 9mm AP rounds will go through, unlike standard ar500 which will stop both of the previously mentioned rounds.
@@hardlylivin6602 That isnt true. The Army's ECH helmet is made of plastic and will easily stop any 9mm AP pistol round.
@@hardlylivin6602 I've heard that about m855s and the regular polymer armor, level 3+ usually means it'll stop that though. That's part of what I was hoping he'd test.
I have read that military shotguns saw only limited use in WW1 because pape shells tended to swell and jam the weapon while brass shells were in short supply.
Makes sense. Are they prone to deformation when loaded or cycled through a tube fed shotgun as well and/or were they at any point manufactured with a lack of waterproofing/sealing like wax?
The production of this video is AMAZING!! From the beach to the mountains within the first 5 minutes is EPIC!! Thank you, Paul, for your hard work and devotion.
Mythbusters was in 1923? Dang, I feel old now.
Awesome presentation, thanks Paul.