What parameter do you program to motor (if allow change settings) ? Tested by me NEMA 23 3,1Nm by factory defaultnis ser maybe to 50% of avaialble "power" after change settings to max limit is just stronger. Separate parameter for stall torque and for spinning. (iCS-2331-L)
Excellent video and testing. As I always tell my engineers in the words of the great W.Edwards Deming "without data you are just another person with an opinion"
I always learning something listening to your videos. And that is saying something since my wife constantly reminds me that I know everything. Look forward to the follow on video.
Thanks James. As always a very informative lesson & clearly articulated. You have a real gift in being able to show & explain complicated technical details in a way that most laymen can understand. Keep up the interesting videos, please... :) (& I like your quiet dry sense of humour too).
James, thank you for an intelligent comparison of these motors. Your channel is one of the _few_ channels where I'm impressed with content _and_ intelligence.
Wow ! At last, an objective test. I've learned alot. Yes, and pinch of salt is always to be taken when reading specs, but your tests are truly revealing. The important point here is the test method, and not subjective reviews. Data doesn't lie, manufacturers do.... Well done, keep it at it.
Well done James for putting in the effort to set all this up and do the editing! My CNC router runs 3Nm steppers on old analogue 80V drivers but I’m running at 70V as this really boosts the output over 48V.
This is gold!!! I wasn’t knowledgeable in any of these things before watching your videos. Now, I feel like I’ve been exposed to enough information (all from your videos) that I’m comfortable on understanding everything I’d need for buying the ELS parts. Thanks all to you James 💪🏻 That 180watt stepperonline motor your going to test sounds like the one for me if it does decent on your testing 🤞🏻 Great video sir 😎
Thank you for this detailed test, this is very valuable for making an educated decision. I was considering going with closed loop, just because it's supposedly better, but seeing this, at the rpm I'll be using it, the difference to a digital driver is very small! You just saved me some money.
This was indeed helpful to my climbing the learning curve on these CNC motors and drivers. I especially liked the comparison at 31:20 and have very much "taken it for what it's worth". Good one! 😉
Fantastic video! Loved it :) Your test rig is genius! I own a set of ClearPaths on my 3D printer and I love them. Quiet and powerful they are truly impressive equipment.
Thank you for doing this, lots of hearsay on the web, my first cnc was in 2004, and no one did this 👍 , this is a demostrative example to base decisions on. Btw, I know John at automation technologies personally and he’s a great person. I’ve done most of these comparisons and I’m going to the get the clear path for my z-axis on the g704👍😎. Awesome video, James.
Hi James, this investigation is valuable well beyond ELS as I'm sure you know and that is reflected in the title which will help with other search terms. Very interesting results and thank you. BobUK.
I really wanted to build a proper motor dyno with a load cell at each end of a friction strap and a leadscrew to gradually apply the force, but realized I could spend the next six months developing it. that would be fun, but wouldn't really get me closer to my goals. :)
@@Clough42 Your method of measuring torque is excellent for those of us still trying to grasp the fundamentals of torque and horsepower. Nothing is hidden inside some arduino code communicating with a load cell; everything is out in the open and easy to understand. I think your method is both educational AND serves as a low-cost torque measurement system. I like it.
Really interesting James! Thank you for that content. I’d love to have an ELS for my 15x60 lathe. I only know a little about this stuff so designing a full system is outside of my comfort zone for sure.
GREAT INFO! I would not have known how to test these. I have Nema 23s and a couple large Nema 34s and never knew really what the optimal speed/torque would be.
As an engineer, I agree with you. You always have to test key components to see if the data sheet is accurate. I've seen lots of power MOSFETs that have a safe-operating area much smaller shown in the data sheet.
Same here, although my professor would have turned me inside out if i had used the smoothed graph lines in a diagram. "If you did´nt measure it, don´t graph it."
This channel is the way, the truth, and the light. Also, you've lost a LOT of weight, James. Good on you man, keep taking care of yourself you look so much healthier than 2 years ago.
Thanks! I feel better, too. Last weekend, I needed to move a 350lb piece of machinery, and I just lifted it onto the pallet. That was really satisfying. :)
Thanks my dear, I will try to follow your input and transform my lathe, too. It will be a long term project as last time I had used trubopascla (25 years ago). I bought an arduino (knowing that probably it is not powerfull enough) but if it will work just a bit I will feel I won. Thanks for your videos, as a (small) youtuber I know how challanging it is and you make more then professional videos. I thank you a lot for your time and send my best regards from Florence. PS: When I should finish the project I will send you the link to my video...but don't expect it too soon :-)
Just a thought to help ease up on the pressure -- if you tie the string around anything you can use as a lever, it would allow you to pull it against the vice and take a lot of variance out of pulling the string directly.
Hi James and thanks for an incredibly useful video. Would be very valuable to measure the power off ‘residual torque’ (for lack of a better expression) of these steppers / servos. Sometimes you want to operate a machine manually while the stepper / servo is coupled but off. Then if considerable, ‘residual torque’ can play havoc with manual accuracy. Many thanks for an excellent channel.
This is a great test, but also an excellent demonstration of why you shouldn't use the "smooth curves" plotting style in Excel with sparsely sampled data!
I requested a quote for 4 Servos at DMM Technology and the guys offered me a very nice discount so, Is my way to go, plus DMM servos have a 16 bits absolute encoders which is awesome. I would compare a DST 0.4kW AC Servo Motor (164 usd) + DYN4 AC Servo Drive (235 usd) with that Clearpath. Thanks so much for your channel, it is always professionally done in content and editing, I just like it even before see it.
ShOcK & AWE comprehensive video. A CZcams video that all others will be compared. You "are" the Servo-Stepper Whisperer. Must See TV is back. Yeah, I'm pretty wound up. Subbed! :)
Really nice analysis. The last integrated servo are actually made by leadshine. I got the 200w made by JMC. They also have the same 180w ones. I hope the test comes out nice Becuase I got 3 of them! Great content as usually
@@marcus_w0 same for me. Got them directly from JMC. I have now discover that the 200w version exist also with 10mm shaft. The 11m shaft size was a real nightmare. I am using steel pulley and che 4mm keyway in the was a real challenge. Good to know that they are working well for you! I bought them Rodger with a 1.8kw AC servo to replace my Nema24 on the BF20L (simil G0704) and the spibdle motor. All servos is the way to go :-)
Love this test. I was for a while ruminating over if I should invest in a servo system for my cnc. Have to say they don't appear to perform as well as I thought. Also, the clearpath system running at 72v should obviously take the lead given the voltage hike. I would imagine most of the other closed loop systems would have performed fairly comparable at that voltage, so this test is skewed in favour imo. That being said, I'll stick with my current dsp open loop system 👍👍
Awesome video. Earned a new sub. My garage cnc uses the Clearpath SDSK-2346P-RLN and I really like them. Between the Clearpath and a Jianken 3.2kw spindle you can barely hear my machine running beyond the noise from the cutter. I remember the days when we all ran routers and it would run you out of the room with the noise. Again, great video. Thanks!
Great video! I built a similar machine (CP nema 32's with Jianken spindle) It is great :) FWIW I don't think the Teknic PS and cables are magic. I used a big, open-frame supply from AD, made up my own cables and they're fine. Just follow the specs and you can save a few bucks
@@rbyt2010 If you got the ATC option on your Jianken spindle Piotr Fox posted a link on some lower cost ISO25 tool holders. I bought them and have to say the runout measured as good as the $100 a piece tool holders from Parfaite. I think I spent just over $100 for 5 tool holders.
Hey. Look at my little 570oz stepper GO! I need upgrade to the KL-5056D. I wonder what the KL-5056E would do. Does the full step, half step, quarter step change anything with the torque at speeds? I think I had it set for 1/8 steps. The Gecko drivers does some magic with the steps by converting the pulse train to full steps when it can. Good stuff!!!
Great video James!!! I purchased your ELS kit but have not installed it yet. I too did lots of research for the most affordable closed loop stepper for this ELS project. Many forums as well as the guys from Arizona CNC Kits (Who have tested loads of Nema 23/24 closed loops steppers) & Franco from Franco CNC directed me to a very affordable 4.0 Nm(566.56oz.in) closed loop stepper/32 bit digital driver (Stepperonline item# 1-CL57Y-24HE40). This closed loop stepper/driver kits sell for $90.56. It "appears" to be a nice fit for your ELS project. As I will not be using these components for 5+ months, I would be happy to loan the closed loop stepper/driver to you to put it on your well thought out testing rig. Thanks... Richard
3D printed hanger also elasts little when force applied, so you have to substract that too, but doesn't matter if you are using same setup for motor to motor comparison.
Very informative, thanks! I'd be very interested in a module on measuring/calculating required torque for a specific application, i.e. what size motor is needed to drive a lathe leadscrew or whatever. (I had to just go with the old SWAG method for my ELS.)
True, that would be helpful. Although there would be a lot of assumptions about the friction in the system, which would require a big safety margin. For the rest, it´s simple physics. You would need the mass / geometry of every accelerating part though.
Super great video ... thanks!! Not sure it's been suggested but if you add compliance to your cord at the finger-pull-end (spring?), you'll get a much smoother tension control in finger pull vs output tension resulting in more consistent measurements in pull-out torque. It will adhere to the winch equation -> LoadTension = InputTension * e^(Drum-CordFriction*CordWrapAngle) for the mechanical gain of your cord+drum winch system. You'll be able to control the InputTension (and hence output tension) better.
I like your shop, mine is a tiny shop 8' x 16'. No off the shelf mill or lathe. I have a Skil drill press that I have built a conversion package for I call it SkillMan, that allows me to due some machining.
You deserve far more viewers with content like this.
I couldn't agree more. :)
@@Clough42 with content like this, they’ll come pouring in at some point no doubt
Sorry but I can only confirm.
What parameter do you program to motor (if allow change settings) ? Tested by me NEMA 23 3,1Nm by factory defaultnis ser maybe to 50% of avaialble "power" after change settings to max limit is just stronger. Separate parameter for stall torque and for spinning. (iCS-2331-L)
not to @@Clough42 why stepper motor a not a dc motor out of the mobility scooter ?, can you test one of them.
Great comparison! Thank you for testing these so thoroughly and reporting your results.
Excellent video and testing. As I always tell my engineers in the words of the great W.Edwards Deming "without data you are just another person with an opinion"
I always learning something listening to your videos. And that is saying something since my wife constantly reminds me that I know everything. Look forward to the follow on video.
Fantastic testing and thoroughness. Thanks for the video
One of my favorite channels. Quality content.
Most excellent analysis...hmmm, now I understand why I’ve been creating “multi-start” threads so successfully 🤔
Perhaps the best thing I've watched on CZcams this year. Well done. Great content. 👍
This is very helpful. Thanks for taking the time to pull this together.
Best video on this topic after watching several videos, thank you.
Very interesting. Thanks a lot for putting in the work and sharing the results!
Thanks James. As always a very informative lesson & clearly articulated. You have a real gift in being able to show & explain complicated technical details in a way that most laymen can understand. Keep up the interesting videos, please... :) (& I like your quiet dry sense of humour too).
"This is why we test". Top-notch video!
James, thank you for an intelligent comparison of these motors. Your channel is one of the _few_ channels where I'm impressed with content _and_ intelligence.
Excellent testing. Just the right amount of introduction upfront and then into the testing. Your production skills are fantastic. Thank you!
Very understandably explained, even for non-English speakers. One of the best videos I have ever seen. Please keep it up! Thumbs up!
Wow ! At last, an objective test. I've learned alot. Yes, and pinch of salt is always to be taken when reading specs, but your tests are truly revealing. The important point here is the test method, and not subjective reviews. Data doesn't lie, manufacturers do.... Well done, keep it at it.
Well done James for putting in the effort to set all this up and do the editing! My CNC router runs 3Nm steppers on old analogue 80V drivers but I’m running at 70V as this really boosts the output over 48V.
Fantastic as always! Thanks for your work!!! Huge help.
I just found you today, and I like your videos. Pure simple engineer mindset you have, very smart one.
Love data! LOVE a well-presented analysis of said data. And live your test rig.
This is gold!!! I wasn’t knowledgeable in any of these things before watching your videos. Now, I feel like I’ve been exposed to enough information (all from your videos) that I’m comfortable on understanding everything I’d need for buying the ELS parts. Thanks all to you James 💪🏻
That 180watt stepperonline motor your going to test sounds like the one for me if it does decent on your testing 🤞🏻 Great video sir 😎
Very helpful! Always love your videos keep up the great work
Absokuly amazing information!! Thanks James.
The DOE was fantastic, I know it involved a lot of work. The data looks very interesting, especially when upgrading to a digital driver. Thanks! 👍🏼
Thank you for this detailed test, this is very valuable for making an educated decision. I was considering going with closed loop, just because it's supposedly better, but seeing this, at the rpm I'll be using it, the difference to a digital driver is very small! You just saved me some money.
This was indeed helpful to my climbing the learning curve on these CNC motors and drivers. I especially liked the comparison at 31:20 and have very much "taken it for what it's worth". Good one! 😉
Excellent video! Can't wait to see the comparison of the ClearPath vs. the StepperOnline Easy Servo!
Incredibly well done analysis !!!
I have closed loop Nema 24s & 34 on my pm-25mv and they seem to be adequate. I really enjoyed your entire presentation. Another great video.
This is very valuable information. Thanks for taking all the time to do this study.
Fantastic video! Loved it :) Your test rig is genius! I own a set of ClearPaths on my 3D printer and I love them. Quiet and powerful they are truly impressive equipment.
fantastic and helpfull testing , thank you
Awesome video! Detailed and insightful. Thank you!
OOo really looking forward to that clearpath/stepperonline battle!
Nice work standardizing your test method, good head to head data.
Expecting the Project Farm music to start any moment now.
We're gonna test that!
Wasn't the video I was looking for but happy I decided to stay.
Killer video James. Gold
Great content! I didn't fall asleep until 39:20 when it got quiet!
An awesome, truly useful video. Many thanks!
The test method is brilliant, I mean rolling the string over the motor hub and pulling on one end
Hadn't heard of the idea of "electronic leadscrew" before this video - very cool idea!
Thank you for doing this, lots of hearsay on the web, my first cnc was in 2004, and no one did this 👍 , this is a demostrative example to base decisions on. Btw, I know John at automation technologies personally and he’s a great person. I’ve done most of these comparisons and I’m going to the get the clear path for my z-axis on the g704👍😎. Awesome video, James.
Very good presentation just watched it
Great video! Hope to see last test shootout, using this to pull the trigger on a buy.
Excellent information I Need a lot of that next year as I am working on my Project
This is a great video, thank you.
Hi James, this investigation is valuable well beyond ELS as I'm sure you know and that is reflected in the title which will help with other search terms. Very interesting results and thank you. BobUK.
"I'm all out of motors" and presumably money, given the price of some of these motors, yikes! Nice procedure and results!
I have some new clearpath motors if any one is interested.
@@arinchang6579 Definitely interested!
Superb presentation and details of the comparison cheers
finally someone using a prony brake instead of the scale test :) Nice work
thanks very much for doing this video, very interesting.
thanks for testing. great infomation!
Nice setup!
Very nice, always want to see such a thorough comparison between those motors. Also would like to see the comparison between spindle motors.
Very cool project. I'm building this for my old Grizzly G4000 lathe, going with the Rattm Motor 3N.m Closed Loop Set
Very well! Thanks for your video!
great work
I very much like your method of measuring torque; I had not seen that before. I love electro - mechanical projects. Thanks.
I really wanted to build a proper motor dyno with a load cell at each end of a friction strap and a leadscrew to gradually apply the force, but realized I could spend the next six months developing it. that would be fun, but wouldn't really get me closer to my goals. :)
@@Clough42 Your method of measuring torque is excellent for those of us still trying to grasp the fundamentals of torque and horsepower. Nothing is hidden inside some arduino code communicating with a load cell; everything is out in the open and easy to understand. I think your method is both educational AND serves as a low-cost torque measurement system. I like it.
Thanks for this valuable information
Cool stuff! Thanks!
Really interesting James! Thank you for that content. I’d love to have an ELS for my 15x60 lathe. I only know a little about this stuff so designing a full system is outside of my comfort zone for sure.
Very nice motor test
GREAT INFO! I would not have known how to test these. I have Nema 23s and a couple large Nema 34s and never knew really what the optimal speed/torque would be.
Really enjoyed this content! DMM Servo is what I use. Would love to see what they do against the Clearpath
As an engineer, I agree with you. You always have to test key components to see if the data sheet is accurate. I've seen lots of power MOSFETs that have a safe-operating area much smaller shown in the data sheet.
Fantastic video, both for the methodology (I was wondering how I would set up a rig for testing) and the comparison of the results.
Brought back memories of physics lab! Enjoyed this one very much. Thanks.
Same here, although my professor would have turned me inside out if i had used the smoothed graph lines in a diagram. "If you did´nt measure it, don´t graph it."
Fair enough. When you get a lot of lines, the smooth lines make it easier to track a single line across the graph.
This just energized me. Great work!
Also, I would love to seem the math you used in that spread sheet to calculate Torque
Great info.
This channel is the way, the truth, and the light. Also, you've lost a LOT of weight, James. Good on you man, keep taking care of yourself you look so much healthier than 2 years ago.
Thanks! I feel better, too. Last weekend, I needed to move a 350lb piece of machinery, and I just lifted it onto the pallet. That was really satisfying. :)
Thanks my dear, I will try to follow your input and transform my lathe, too. It will be a long term project as last time I had used trubopascla (25 years ago). I bought an arduino (knowing that probably it is not powerfull enough) but if it will work just a bit I will feel I won. Thanks for your videos, as a (small) youtuber I know how challanging it is and you make more then professional videos. I thank you a lot for your time and send my best regards from Florence.
PS: When I should finish the project I will send you the link to my video...but don't expect it too soon :-)
I just started watching this. My wife looks over and says "oh, it's your friend" 😁
Nice job one more time!
As I understand probably the second line on the clear path motor is the 100%dude factor load.
Will try
Bravo for knowing the proper name of the Prony brake! ;-)
Thank you
thank you
Just a thought to help ease up on the pressure -- if you tie the string around anything you can use as a lever, it would allow you to pull it against the vice and take a lot of variance out of pulling the string directly.
Please take a look at the popular JMC servo with integrated driver 180 Watt. There is also a 400Watt version, and a new 200watt.
Hi James and thanks for an incredibly useful video. Would be very valuable to measure the power off ‘residual torque’ (for lack of a better expression) of these steppers / servos. Sometimes you want to operate a machine manually while the stepper / servo is coupled but off. Then if considerable, ‘residual torque’ can play havoc with manual accuracy. Many thanks for an excellent channel.
This is a great test, but also an excellent demonstration of why you shouldn't use the "smooth curves" plotting style in Excel with sparsely sampled data!
I requested a quote for 4 Servos at DMM Technology and the guys offered me a very nice discount so, Is my way to go, plus DMM servos have a 16 bits absolute encoders which is awesome.
I would compare a DST 0.4kW AC Servo Motor (164 usd) + DYN4 AC Servo Drive (235 usd) with that Clearpath.
Thanks so much for your channel, it is always professionally done in content and editing, I just like it even before see it.
So many motors... So little time... So much money. :)
ShOcK & AWE comprehensive video. A CZcams video that all others will be compared. You "are" the Servo-Stepper Whisperer. Must See TV is back. Yeah, I'm pretty wound up. Subbed! :)
Just as a notice, for the hybrid motor, the torque curve was for 75v and you run 48v if I'm not mistaken.
Really nice analysis. The last integrated servo are actually made by leadshine. I got the 200w made by JMC. They also have the same 180w ones. I hope the test comes out nice Becuase I got 3 of them! Great content as usually
@@marcus_w0 same for me. Got them directly from JMC. I have now discover that the 200w version exist also with 10mm shaft. The 11m shaft size was a real nightmare. I am using steel pulley and che 4mm keyway in the was a real challenge.
Good to know that they are working well for you! I bought them Rodger with a 1.8kw AC servo to replace my Nema24 on the BF20L (simil G0704) and the spibdle motor. All servos is the way to go :-)
Love this test. I was for a while ruminating over if I should invest in a servo system for my cnc. Have to say they don't appear to perform as well as I thought. Also, the clearpath system running at 72v should obviously take the lead given the voltage hike. I would imagine most of the other closed loop systems would have performed fairly comparable at that voltage, so this test is skewed in favour imo. That being said, I'll stick with my current dsp open loop system 👍👍
please, feel free to talk more about motors.
Yeah, that was excellent
lol
@@ikbendusan Genuine comment. I /actually/ want him to? :)
Awesome video. Earned a new sub. My garage cnc uses the Clearpath SDSK-2346P-RLN and I really like them. Between the Clearpath and a Jianken 3.2kw spindle you can barely hear my machine running beyond the noise from the cutter. I remember the days when we all ran routers and it would run you out of the room with the noise. Again, great video. Thanks!
Yeah, I need to tear in to my mill to hunt down some backlash that has crept in, and I'm seriously thinking about the Clearpaths.
@@Clough42 My issues were in the shaft couplings. Changed to Zero-Max brand and everything improved 100%.
Great video! I built a similar machine (CP nema 32's with Jianken spindle) It is great :) FWIW I don't think the Teknic PS and cables are magic. I used a big, open-frame supply from AD, made up my own cables and they're fine. Just follow the specs and you can save a few bucks
@@rbyt2010 If you got the ATC option on your Jianken spindle Piotr Fox posted a link on some lower cost ISO25 tool holders. I bought them and have to say the runout measured as good as the $100 a piece tool holders from Parfaite. I think I spent just over $100 for 5 tool holders.
@@machine2747 Thanks, will check it out. Little behind on Piotr...
It is soooo reliefing that you're using the metric system. Cheers mates!
Very interesting. Thank you James for all the work and time you’ve put into this. 👍👍😎👍👍
Hey. Look at my little 570oz stepper GO! I need upgrade to the KL-5056D. I wonder what the KL-5056E would do. Does the full step, half step, quarter step change anything with the torque at speeds? I think I had it set for 1/8 steps. The Gecko drivers does some magic with the steps by converting the pulse train to full steps when it can. Good stuff!!!
Great video James!!! I purchased your ELS kit but have not installed it yet. I too did lots of research for the most affordable closed loop stepper for this ELS project. Many forums as well as the guys from Arizona CNC Kits (Who have tested loads of Nema 23/24 closed loops steppers) & Franco from Franco CNC directed me to a very affordable 4.0 Nm(566.56oz.in) closed loop stepper/32 bit digital driver (Stepperonline item# 1-CL57Y-24HE40). This closed loop stepper/driver kits sell for $90.56. It "appears" to be a nice fit for your ELS project. As I will not be using these components for 5+ months, I would be happy to loan the closed loop stepper/driver to you to put it on your well thought out testing rig. Thanks... Richard
I saw that "4.0Nm" kit, but if you look at the torque curve, it only claims just over 2.5Nm pull-out torque.
3D printed hanger also elasts little when force applied, so you have to substract that too, but doesn't matter if you are using same setup for motor to motor comparison.
Huge !
Very informative, thanks!
I'd be very interested in a module on measuring/calculating required torque for a specific application, i.e. what size motor is needed to drive a lathe leadscrew or whatever. (I had to just go with the old SWAG method for my ELS.)
True, that would be helpful. Although there would be a lot of assumptions about the friction in the system, which would require a big safety margin. For the rest, it´s simple physics. You would need the mass / geometry of every accelerating part though.
Super great video ... thanks!! Not sure it's been suggested but if you add compliance to your cord at the finger-pull-end (spring?), you'll get a much smoother tension control in finger pull vs output tension resulting in more consistent measurements in pull-out torque. It will adhere to the winch equation -> LoadTension = InputTension * e^(Drum-CordFriction*CordWrapAngle) for the mechanical gain of your cord+drum winch system. You'll be able to control the InputTension (and hence output tension) better.
Oh, good idea. I didn't think of that.
I like your shop, mine is a tiny shop 8' x 16'. No off the shelf mill or lathe. I have a Skil drill press that I have built a conversion package for I call it SkillMan, that allows me to due some machining.
Very interesting, but I wonder if the spinning aluminium mass doesn't add to the peak torque? Especially as it quickly decelerates from the high RPM?
nice......... !