I had all these. Gods and Chaos Engine were my favourites. Speedball was fun too. Didn’t get into Magic Pockets. It always felt clunky and all that spinning into the whirlwinds to shoot upwards quickly became frustrating.
Truly a terrible thing to see a promising moustache cut down in its prime. I salute you Joy of Stache, we hardly knew ye... Leg bust is not fun. Hope it heals soon! That's really cool that your ST went along to uni with you. I hope it survived all the university shenanigans! I wouldn't be surprised if several pints of cider were spilled over it in its time. I guess if you're still using it though it must have been alright. More than happy to see more videos from your channel, whether they're gameplay or this kind of discussion. It's all gold mate. S-tier youtuber!
Joy of Stache! :D I should have given him his own channel. Leg's feeling ok. I'm going to try and run on it this weekend. Wish me luck! The ST survived the university experience fine, but my friends dealer booted his Dreamcast across the floor. It made the most horrifying grinding noise when it happened. Luckily the console was fine, but the copy of Crazy Taxi inside was utterly brutalised. We took it back to Electronics Boutique and it was so bizarrely ruined (like someone had taken a spirograph and a compass to the disc's underside) that they couldn't imagine that we could have done it and it must have been a factory fault! :D Thanks so much for the supportive words, Jim. They mean so much coming from you. Take care, chap!
Hey Mark and EVERYONE.Just wanted to wish ALL a happy holiday season and thanks for your great content.I really do enjoy it 👍. Although my opinions don't always match your own
I don’t know if you’ve watched any long plays of Speedball 2, but as someone who played the game to death when it came out, it’s super-annoying to watch someone play through the entire league season and never use after-touch when throwing. It’s like being used to watching Barcelona in the modern day and going back to watching late-80s Wimbledon FC 🤣
:D Ha ha! That IS such an important skill to beat the goalkeepers in that game. It feels dead nice just to drift a shot past the keeper's shoulder with one. And hey, don't knock late 80s Wimbledon. That was football the way it was meant to be played, that. 😆
@@Justin-TPG I wonder if we could hack Speedball 2 and put in some of our favourite leg-snappers? Duncan Ferguson, Neil Ruddock, Stu Pearce, Mick Harford. I can imagine their pixel art with chunks of skin revealing the wrought iron endoskeleton underneath.
@@thejoyofsticks A roster update would be great, loads of other sports titles get them! Or why don't we just petition for actual Speedball? I'd pay to watch that league and not sure I can wait another 75 years. Violent Desire for life!
loved this! largely agree. put XENON 2 dead last (i don't know what anyone sees in this; only ever loaded it for the music), bump up MAGIC POCKETS (possibly the first amiga game i ever played) just past GODS and you'd have my list. even if i hadn't gotten pretty good at SPEEDBALL 2 out of nowhere in the last couple of years, it'd still be in the top tier. CHAOS ENGINE at #1 'cause i've spent the most time with it. i liked how you had to take it one skirmish at a time and would celebrate every little victory; you couldn't just power through without suffering a lot of damage. entertaining puzzles, memorable changes in environment... i can get up to the last two nodes on what i assume is the last level -- it's another one i need to complete soon-ish! would love to see more of these tier lists at some point. ranking atari's '80s arcade games would be really fun (PAPERBOY! GAUNTLET! MARBLE MADNESS! SUPER SPRINT! KLAX!) though it might involve a little too much research, and probably be a long vid with somewhere around 50 titles to put in order.
Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the suggestion. I really enjoyed making this one. The Bitmaps had the perfect amount of games to make this video and is played so the games were extensively. It's difficult to think of another tier list that would work as well. Psygnosis has been suggested, but there are way more titles and plenty I haven't played.
I was also guilty as charged with the mispronunciation of Cadaver, Marc! Yeah, apart from the beautiful graphics, great music and the best shop on the ST what exactly DOES Xenon 2 bring to the table?.......haha Nah, you make some valid points. I'd personally place it slightly higher - as I would with Magic Pockets - but if I'm being honest with myself they'd likely be getting bumped up for nostalgic reasons. As you said at the start, the Bitmap Brothers appeared to concentrate on style over substance but I don't think any could be classed as bad games, per se. No question about it, definitely do more of these vids over the festive season (and beyond).....whack some festive lights on in the background and/or stick a Father Christmas hat on as well whilst you're at it!
No doubt that nostalgia plays a huge part in our estimation of these games, and so it should. It's this kind of heart and soul that makes old games and hearing old codgers talking about them so appealing! :D I really enjoyed making this video, so I think there will be more in the pipeline. I've just got to think of a subject. I did think of doing a football game tier list. I think that would be a lot of fun!
As many are aware, Speedball must have derived from the 1975 James Caan film Rollerball, by way of inspiration. I first saw the film around 1993, had a hold-on-a-minute! moment and made the connection, lol. Great video, yes please do make some more 👍
I've never seen it beyond a few clips and maybe a trailer, but the influence is pretty obvious. Is it actually a good movie though? Worth a watch? Thanks for the kind words!
@@thejoyofsticks Imo it's pretty good. It has that mid 70s film aesthetic of a dystopic future, similar to Soylent Green or Omega Man. Thanks and I'm keen to see you further the series 👍
New subscriber - loving your vids! For me, Gods was, and still is as I continue to play it, one of my favourite games on the ST. All BB games are difficult, but they all reward repeat gameplay. Probably played Speedball 2 the most of all of them.
Thank, Jamie! That’s lovely to hear, glad you are enjoying the videos. Gods felt clunky and awkward to me upon playing it, but you are certainly correct, the more you play, the more you get used to the character's movement and the progress you make is pretty rewarding. The gods in the Ancient Greek myths were unyielding and punishing, so why should the game be any different? 😂
If we're talking about the ST versions, then I'd say: S = A = Speedball; Speedball 2; Cadaver; Gods B = Xenon; The Chaos Engine C = Xenon 2; Magic Pockets F = The Chaos Engine needed a proper STe version then it'd have ranked higher! edit: good idea, BTW. Now what about a Core Design tier list? :) edit2: Xenon 2 has shared staff with some other Bitmap Brothers games (same graphic artist (Mark Coleman) and musician (David Whittaker) as Speedball for instance). The Assembly Line did the programming. So I think that it can legit count as a Bitmap Brothers game.
Core was on my to do list! Some great games there, for sure. Good shout on the STE version of Chaos Engine. More colours, hardware scrolling. Mmm, nice. Thanks for the clarification re Xenon 2. Glad I included it now.
@@thejoyofsticks You're welcome buddy, I always love to dig the development side of things. Now about my tier list, maybe that I should have put the two Speedball games as "S tier". Gods would have been S had it got the gameplay tweaks of the console versions but it's still a very good game on the ST and that sweet intro song is a huge plus. And Xenon would have been A or maybe even S if that game had more variety of stages and an actual ending.
I agree with most of what you said here but I think Xenon 2 deserves to be higher. It does have slightly iffy collision detection at times but once you've equipped plenty of weapon upgrades that tends not to be an issue. The alien shopkeeper is done beautifully and the firepower you can muster gets insane!
Very interesting idea - would also like to see Psygnosis games done like this. Or, maybe ST flight sims - it would be a much bigger list / longer video though. Would be nice to play through the best (or worst) ones :)
I would be the last person on Earth qualified enough to do a video like this on flight sims! :D I had thought of doing a Psygnosis one though, as they are a legendary software house that would go on to very big things!
Really cool! I actually didn't know about the first Xenon game, and how innovative it was. Waggling the joystick does sound a bit iffy. The Amiga had a shooter which had a really solid alternative - Battle Squadron. In Battle Squadron, you activated a smart bomb by pressing the fire button and swirling the joystick in a circle. This was very effective - no false triggers, and you could reliably set it off in a fraction of a second. Unfortunately, the swirl was only easy with an actual joystick. If you had a NES style gamepad controller? Good luck with that!
I've never played Battle Squadron, so I'll have to give that a shot sometime (sshh, don't tell anyone, but I have Amigas too). That control solution sounds far superior. It's hard to believe that the Bitmaps wouldn't have seen the unintentional switching during playtesting. I played IK+ with a Master System controller once. Not to be recommended. :D
@@thejoyofsticks It's definitely worth trying out. It seems to be frequently considered the "best shooter" on the Amiga, although I really can't point to any specific thing that makes it the "best". All I know is that we played the heck out of it. It's just a lot of fun.
Love these tier series videos (some other game channels i follow also do this), i don't always agree, but it is interesting none the less. Do more! Maybe Gremlin next?
Agreeing is boring! Please rip into my ridiculous opinions and how flipping idiotic they are! :D Gremlin is a good shout. I'll add it to the 'possible' list.
Great video mate and great minds must think alike...remember I said I may get a video out by the end of lockdown. Well I've got all this bitmap brothers footage and you've pipped me to the post 🤣🤣. Mine's gonna be a bit different. I hope you don't mind me putting it out anyway in a week or so.
Nice! That sounds amazing and I can't wait to see it. If it's a tier list I am so sorry! Promise I didn't hack into your hard drive to steal all of your ideas.
marc congrats on your movember.. personally i love your more free flowing videos like this one and the live streams.. and the topic of this is brilliant.. are you going to do a psygnosis one? you might have to split it over a couple of videos but it would be fascinating. I love that.. when you said about xenon 2.. " i don't see why people like it.. apart from the graphics, the sound and the presentation!" lolol I would have put X2 in B.. defo.. I agree with you about game play. I think it scored high on your survey because like shadow of the beast, xenon 2 defined a moment.. i know it was one of those games that literally convinced people to buy a 16bit machine. when I first heard the bomb the bass intro my jaw dropped.. same with shadow of the beast and it's incredible parallax scrolling..
Thanks Baz! That feedback is invaluable. I did have Psygnosis on my list to do. I think it will be a bit quicker, with less time spent discussing each game though. I'll have to practice at being more eloquent and less waffly. You are so right about the 'showcase' game. When I first started seeing STs in shops, they were showing Defender of the Crown and it was like watching the future (ironically, for a game about the past) and made us all covet one desperately. I even convinced myself into liking Shadow of the Beast when I was little. It is a showcase, but very little in the way of gameplay and has now become synonymous with that period of decline for the ST in favour of the Amiga in publishers/developers eyes.
Great idea for a video and spot on tiering too! X2 was boring but I loved Xenon, don't think ever managed to transform using the joystick though, I certainly wasn't aware of it at least :) How about a video on the ST Power Pack? Then again, might be too many games perhaps :P
Thanks, buddy! Maybe you had a version without waggle transforming? Do you still have it? Could you confirm? :O The Power Pack! I hadn't thought about doing a tier list for that. I did think about doing a video about it. Now it's perfect! Thanks, you bloody genius!
@@thejoyofsticks just tried the same version of Xenon I used to play and the waggle transforming is definetely there. It's been so long and I suppose I just never noticed the connection, either that or I only remembered the good stuff. Waggle or no waggle, not much has changed since the old days it seems as I still get annihilated within seconds on sector 2 😀
Great video. I also think Speeball 2 and The Chaos Engine are head and shoulders above the rest. Xenon 2 was a technical showcase -- but the actual gameplay felt really boring. I have a soft spot for Magic Pockets, as it has old school British charm, so I'd put it in Tier B.
Thanks, Kingston! Magic Pockets certainly stands out from the rest of the Bitmap games because of its lighter, more cutesy theme. And as you said, the Britishness really shines through. That Betty Boo soundtrack certainly adds to that.
Anyway, great video my friend. The Bitmap brothers are my absolute favourite game designers ever. All their games were superb, with speciall care to the amazibg graphics and music, as nowere else did in that time. I think that Magic Pokets should be an A... fantastic game.
@@thejoyofsticks In fact, everything. The intro music, the great graphics... and it’s a funny game, very colourful and addictive. It’s a great adventure through a lot of beautiful levels, I remember myself going crazy trying to find the correct wayout in the maps, I had lots of fun throwing away these maniac giant stone-hurricanes (or wathever the hell are) to the enemies! Maybe you have to give it another chance dude.
Having watched your top 50 series the rankings and comments here weren't too surprising :) I'd say Speedball II is the one I had the most fun with back in the day, and Chaos Engine feels like it has aged well - I'd love to see a modern take on that franchise.
And I tried so hard to disguise my own opinions during the top 50! :D I worry about modern remakes, especially when they don't understand the character of the originals. If they could do a faithful update, I'd give it a go!
Maybe I was a little harsh. Based on the first level alone, Magic Pockets is one of the best platforming experiences on the ST, but from then on, the inflated difficulty of the enemies just makes the game a slog.
Ditto, I freakin loved Xenon. The speech at the start of the levels, I think it was "Sector1,2 etc", blew my little mind as a kid. I agree though, the joystick wiggle was slightly annoying. Many thanks for the list. Living in Australia where the ST was never popular at all (most people had NES), all we had was the power pack, so seeing the other games that were available in Europe/US is always great. Dad did buy an Atari ST magazine at the time and I drooled over the game ads in it, dreaming... Also, should have left the mo on, just grew it out. Its what we call a chopper mo' here in Austraia (ie Chopper Reid, look him up if unfamiliar with this delightful person)
Yes! "GET READY FOR SECTOR ONE!" Loved it. Sometimes we would reboot just to hear it again! :D Great that you had the Power Pack at least. That was a cracking starter set of games. Did you not even get cracked, copied games over in Australia? A chopper! Yes! I was searching for that name for it through the whole month! I plumped for calling it a 'Hogan'.
I loved Xenon, but it is not a good game. As a graphics/audio demo, as experience - it is great. It looks and sounds incredibly cool. But as a shoot-em-up game it is garbage. I was equally impressed by Metal Mutant back in the days. And that game is also not great gameplay-wise. But if you can accept it as quirky trial and error cinematic adventure game with some impressive if clunky combat as a bonus, you can enjoy it on its own. But Xenon 2 is a shooter game, there's nothing else to it. And, as a shooter, it is crap, though beautiful-looking. P.S. Completed Tyrian and while it is way better, still not a fan. If you played any of the japanese ones, just don't compare. Neither stylistically, not gameplay-wise.
Great list and I really do enjoy your reasoning. For me Magic Pockets was a great game. I agree the later levels kind of screwed the game play. But for someone like me who rarely got past the first couple of worlds on games I loved it. I think I had the Demo for years before getting the full game. Its an "A" game for me ;) The Chaos Engine, apart from the graphics, I always found way too hard and boring to be honest. Its a game I would load up and try again at many times, but never enjoyed! That would probs be a "C" for me. Another I loved was Gods, but yeah the game play was way too cluncky. Also, I always got stuck around level 3 or 4 I think. So found it so frustrating that I loved teh game but couldnt get anywhere on it. Cool video mate.
Great idea for a video. I almost agree completely with your thoughts. I might have put Magic Pockets and Xenon 2 in "F", simply because I never managed to get any enjoyment from those games. Chaos Engine and Speedball 2 easily deserve to be up there.
It's that old rosy bastard nostalgia again, isn't it? I still have fond memories of Magic Pockets thanks to Motormouth and the demo on the cover disk (was it Zero magazine?). And then, I played a ton of Xenon 2 as a nipper thanks to the crackers trainer mode that gave you an invulnerable ship. I used to play it as a sight-seeing game, just to see the awesome graphics and have fun building a ship from all the cool power ups, trying different loadouts each time.
Magic pockets was my absolute favourite game. We had only only demo of the first level for a long time and my sister and I would try and get the highest score playing it over znd over.
Brilliant video and great format to use. Just because it's simple doesn't mean you should avoid it. A friend of mine Old School Gaming does C64/Amiga videos and they're fantastic but he doesn't try for anything too fancy, he just does it very well. As for your choices I agree with them all, mostly, apart from Xenon 2. Maybe I was starved of shooters, but I am genuinely not very good at the genre, yet I managed to finish Xenon 2 without cheating. I don't think it was too hard. I like that they didn't just make the enemies take more hits (the lazy way they did in Pockets) and instead you needed to upgrade your weapons to do it. I like that you didn't lose powerups on death - it makes R-type etc much, much less fun for casual play. I have only just got my Mega STE up and running and I'm waiting on an ArcadeR coming (in ST colours!) so I will try Xenon 2 again and see how I do. I did try it briefly and made it through level 1 just fine and into level 2 before I ran out of time. Cadaver - or as I somehow called it Cad, A, Ver (not quite the same mispronunciation as you) I had on pirate as a kid. It's now boxed on my shelf (they all are apart from Pockets) and I will be properly trying it again. It's my type of game, I just did not give it the time properly as a kid. For Gods I do not like the twitchy nature of platformers where you have complete control of your character. The reason being that gameplay then forces you to take complete control of your character and you have to pull off fancy movement heavily based on reactions. Maybe that's why I like Xenon 2 so much, you have to do a bit more planning than reacting? So with Gods you have to work with the limitations. It can be frustrating because you want your dude to do something and you've already told him something else and there's no changing it, but that's got a good side to it as well. Cannon Fodder, Speedball 1 and 2, Magic Pockets and Xenon you're spot on with. I would move Xenon 2 and Gods up to A. If you do more of these type of videos you will find an additional difficulty because for this one we all know the games, maybe not in detail but at least to some degree. I think there will be ranges where we don't so maybe you'll need to go into more detail on each title.
Thanks for the kind words and feedback, Raptor! Most appreciated. Great to hear that a non-shooter fan has managed to get through Xenon 2. You have spurred me on to giving it another try, maybe after watching some videos of someone who is actually good at playing the game. Whats an ArcadeR? Is that the new joystick that someone is making? You'll have to let me know if it's any good. Fascinating to hear your take on Gods. I'd never considered that a less responsive character could actually be something desirable. I'll certainly bear that in mind next time I play and try to approach it with that mindset. Hey, I might even enjoy the game more! You are absolutely right. The Bitmap Brothers games really suited this kind of video. I thought about doing Psygnosis next, as there are plenty of familiar games as well as some that people don't know as well. Then people may think "oh, game X I don't know was in the same tier as game Y, maybe I should give game X a go?" I thought about including a little gameplay video of the game too to help people get a feel for it.
@@thejoyofsticks the ArcadeR is yeah, it's most similar to a Comp Pro, although I used Zipstiks and it's really not far off that either. My friend Mark Fixes Stuff has reviewed them on his channel. They're quite open to being modded. You can buy them in the UK from ZXrenew, but I've had to order from China to get the ST colour. Psygnosis will be more difficult than Bitmap Brothers, but it'll give you a chance to play a lot of games at least.
@@DaveVelociraptor I use a Zipstick too! I switch between that and The Arcade. Great joysticks that have quite literally stood the test of time. I've found the ArcadeR joysticks at ZXRenew and I remember looking at them a while ago. I have about 5 Zipsticks here in various conditions, as well as several other sticks, so I don't think I'll get one, but it's great to know that someone is manufacturing a new stick. The original hardware can only last so long, after all.
@@thejoyofsticks Other than holding the fire button down for large tornadoes to capture the enemies, then the higher you jump from into them, you get more bonuses, not that I know of.
I think all in all you got the list right. I have a real soft spot for Cadaver, as you rightly point out it really was a spiritual successor to Knight Lore and Alien 8 and games of that ilk. Speedball is fun as is its sequel. I've never really gotten on with the Xenon games. First one I think is okay, second is a lot of bling but little in the way of real gameplay. Chaos Engine is a classic for all time. Magic Pockets I've never really liked. I like platformers but MP didn't do it for me.
Great analysis! I completely agree on Xenon 2, and indeed all the other rankings except Magic Pockets. It has a very similar game engine to Gods but in the “cutesy platform romp” style (before the market was saturated with such games) so my opinion the two games deserve to be equal. (In fact, perhaps “third tier” feels a bit hard on both now I think about it.)
Thanks WB! I was expecting to be excommunicated from the gaming community for my views on Xenon 2, but it seems that quite a few people share my dislike for the game. It's worth bearing in mind that these games are only 'third tier' on a list of games from an elite 16 bit games developer! They would feature higher when considering the broader quality of the ST catalogue.
When I was a kid, I also thought Gods gameplay design is bad and renders a game bad, but after 20+ years I have tried it on Symbian phone emulator, with horific input controler (Nokia 6680) and finaly figured out game mechanics! It is a great game and not at all hard when you realize enemy patterns. As for Magic Pockets, game mechanics is interesting but also good when you get a hang of it. I never got into Speedball, it was stoopid to me. Xenons are terrible. I played Chaos Engine to the death, back in the day! Excellent gane although it also took me a while to figure out game mechanics.
That's too funny. It took you 20 years and a Nokia to realise Gods is worth your time. 🤣 I can't remember if I mentioned it in the video, but Magic Pockets is quite easier until one level where the enemies just get ridiculously tanky and hard to kill. Am I missing something?
Nice one, Bob. It's a testament to their quality that neither of our lists places a game of theirs in the F tier. Nice to see that I wasn't so crazy placing Chaos into the tippy top tier. But you have placed Speedball 2 in the C tier and must now delete your internet.
No, no, this is wrong. All wrong I tell you! 😂😂 I jest. Really great video - as always 😊. In the interests of healthy disagreement, I have to fly the flag for Xenon II. Clearly a triple A title. Played to completion with my mates - one controlling the ship (via Euromax ZipStick 🕹️) and one hitting the fire button (mouse or space bar) until his fingers bled 😂 Speedball 2 is also great fun but doesn't come close to the original for me. SB2 has the graphics and sounds but lost the heart and soul of the original in the upgrade 😞 Speedball was a high-octane, super fast-paced adrenaline hit. I felt SB2 never quite hit that level. A bit like Kick off / Kick off 2 😊
:D Even I look back at my ratings in this video and argue with them! You're not the only person I've heard that prefers the original Speedball. I try to look at it through your lens, but I just don't see it. I guess it's one of those 'first love' things. A bit like me swearing until I'm blue in the face that Championship Manager 93 is better than all the Champ Mans and Football Managers that followed it! :D Kick Off better than Kick Off 2? No you are just stark raving bonkers! 🤣 I can't play Kick Off without after touch!
@@thejoyofsticks They may be in the same boat as Bitmap, style over substance. I’m a big fan who has come to admit I like the idea of Thalion more than the games released.
Agree with all placements except Xenon 2 (F). It's a very poor game, bad difficulty done cynically, it's quite slow and boring to play, and many people only loaded it up for the Bomb The Bass intro. Don't waste your time with it! My only problem with Xenon is exactly the one you mentioned, I too often swap forms unintentionally and like you I hoped someone would patch that out by now. Well done on the charity money, by the way. Hope your calf recovers asap.
I couldn't put it in F because I really enjoyed playing through it with an infinite energy cheat when I was a lad. Played it like a sight-seeing game and it was fun building up the ship in different ways with different power ups each run through. But I agree with your sentiment whole-heartedly. Thanks for the kind words!
I don't get the hype about Chaos Engine. Maybe I should give it another try. But for me it's B atm.! Yes, Xenon 2 is a tough one, but much more straight forward than the first Xenon with it's annoying morphing ship. First Xenon for me is much more frustrating with it's non-fluid gameplay (back and forth etc.) and get's an B, while X2 definetly A! But hey, it's all very subjective of course. I'm more a fan of simple gameplay. 😁
It would be interesting to hear if your opinion changes after giving it another go, Tpau. Like so many gaming memories, it's permanently interwoven with nostalgia. I played it when I traveled up to Crewe to visit a mate who was at college there. That game will always be linked with that memory. Interesting to hear your take on Xenon, and you are right about the back and forth. It can break the flow and maybe that's why they tried to include the command for transformation on the joystick?
On the last level of Cadaver I could only find 9/10 gems never managed to finish it now I have an ST again it'll be back on the list!!! S/A for sure!!!! They did a few games on Saturday mornings Knightmare aah there was another one I can see in my head but I cant remember the name of it was really weird. S - Xeon, Xenon 2, Cadaver A - Speedball, Speedball 2 B - The Chaos Engine C - Everything else :P Xenon 2 was waaaay easier than Xenon super nashwan power ftw. You're so wrong Xenon2 was a massive game at the time you're just hating on it because it sounds like you sucked at it :P
Oooh! I knew it! In the nane of god! What the hell you did to my Xenon 2 ?!!😂😂 ok, where do I have to click to cancel my subscription? Unacceptable dude! 🤣
S The Chaos Engine A Speedball B Xenon C Magic Pockets, Gods, Speedball II F Xenon 2 Never played Cadaver so I can't say. Speedball II rates so low just because it felt like a regression of Speedball to me, they tried to do too much. Xenon 2 was just repetitive garbage.
That's the thing isn't it? If you love a game, sequels can be more of a curse than a blessing. That's the case for me with lots of games that I played the original of first. Lotus Esprit Turbo Challenge is the prime example. And Championship Manager. I like how simple those iterations are over their sequels.
Xenon 2 is the one of the most overrated computer games of its time. To find something that plays worse as a shmup you have to go into 8-bit territory. Cool music yes, but it's only one for the whole game. Stylish graphics but good luck telling the difference between levels, as they all look almost the same. And you feel underpowered no matter what, even the reverse scrolling doesn't help much, it's just clunky. Probably, with well designed levels they wouldn't have needed that gimmick. It pales in comparison to a game like Wings of Death, which really shows the ST can do a great shmup but is not nearly as well regarded.
Cheers, Amerigo! It's nice to know I'm not alone in my estimation of Xenon 2, even if it did make number 3 (NUMBER 3!?) on the Top 50 this year: thejoyofsticks.com/the-top-50-atari-st-games Ah, Wings of Death... now we are talking! That's a game. Unfortunately all of Thalion's catalogue undersold. More due to marketing then anything, I feel.
You should not be afraid of criticizing Xenon 2. Its former fans grew up considerably and, unless they haven't played any more games since or still retain intellectual level of a kid, will agree, that the gameplay was kinda crap. But for someone who never even saw western or japanese arcade games back then, it sure looked insanely cool. Modern critics probably won't understand that.
Having said that, I don't think that gameplay requiring memorization is necessarily bad. R-Type is a highly acclaimed game and does this a lot. Everything else, and reliance on auto fire in particular, yes. It is ridiculous, how much harder this game gets without autofire.
Hey hope you’re still around! I have occasionally watched this channel and have always enjoyed the Atari ST content here :).
Sorry about the late replies, but yes, I am still around. Keep an eye out around 5 tomorrow for a new vid! 👍
@@thejoyofsticks awesome!!!
I had all these. Gods and Chaos Engine were my favourites. Speedball was fun too. Didn’t get into Magic Pockets. It always felt clunky and all that spinning into the whirlwinds to shoot upwards quickly became frustrating.
Yes! Magic Pockets is very clunky. And the difficulty spikes later on are extremely frustrating.
Truly a terrible thing to see a promising moustache cut down in its prime. I salute you Joy of Stache, we hardly knew ye...
Leg bust is not fun. Hope it heals soon!
That's really cool that your ST went along to uni with you. I hope it survived all the university shenanigans! I wouldn't be surprised if several pints of cider were spilled over it in its time. I guess if you're still using it though it must have been alright.
More than happy to see more videos from your channel, whether they're gameplay or this kind of discussion. It's all gold mate. S-tier youtuber!
Joy of Stache! :D I should have given him his own channel. Leg's feeling ok. I'm going to try and run on it this weekend. Wish me luck!
The ST survived the university experience fine, but my friends dealer booted his Dreamcast across the floor. It made the most horrifying grinding noise when it happened. Luckily the console was fine, but the copy of Crazy Taxi inside was utterly brutalised. We took it back to Electronics Boutique and it was so bizarrely ruined (like someone had taken a spirograph and a compass to the disc's underside) that they couldn't imagine that we could have done it and it must have been a factory fault! :D
Thanks so much for the supportive words, Jim. They mean so much coming from you. Take care, chap!
When are you coming back with more vids, Marc?? We miss you and this cosy corner of Atari comfort telly!
I was just thinking the same! Hope he's ok and when ready I really hope he comes back 😊
👀
Hey Mark and EVERYONE.Just wanted to wish ALL a happy holiday season and thanks for your great content.I really do enjoy it 👍. Although my opinions don't always match your own
Ha ha! That's what opinions are for! Thanks for the kind words, buddy. I hope you had a nice holidays despite all the current weirdness. Take care!
I don’t know if you’ve watched any long plays of Speedball 2, but as someone who played the game to death when it came out, it’s super-annoying to watch someone play through the entire league season and never use after-touch when throwing. It’s like being used to watching Barcelona in the modern day and going back to watching late-80s Wimbledon FC 🤣
:D Ha ha! That IS such an important skill to beat the goalkeepers in that game. It feels dead nice just to drift a shot past the keeper's shoulder with one.
And hey, don't knock late 80s Wimbledon. That was football the way it was meant to be played, that. 😆
At least in Speedball 2 you can assemble a full team of Vinny Joneses and not get any sanctions. It's positively encouraged!
@@Justin-TPG I wonder if we could hack Speedball 2 and put in some of our favourite leg-snappers? Duncan Ferguson, Neil Ruddock, Stu Pearce, Mick Harford. I can imagine their pixel art with chunks of skin revealing the wrought iron endoskeleton underneath.
@@thejoyofsticks A roster update would be great, loads of other sports titles get them! Or why don't we just petition for actual Speedball? I'd pay to watch that league and not sure I can wait another 75 years. Violent Desire for life!
Did you ever play Projectyle? That's another sport I'm looking forward to seeing in the future. 😄
loved this! largely agree. put XENON 2 dead last (i don't know what anyone sees in this; only ever loaded it for the music), bump up MAGIC POCKETS (possibly the first amiga game i ever played) just past GODS and you'd have my list. even if i hadn't gotten pretty good at SPEEDBALL 2 out of nowhere in the last couple of years, it'd still be in the top tier. CHAOS ENGINE at #1 'cause i've spent the most time with it. i liked how you had to take it one skirmish at a time and would celebrate every little victory; you couldn't just power through without suffering a lot of damage. entertaining puzzles, memorable changes in environment... i can get up to the last two nodes on what i assume is the last level -- it's another one i need to complete soon-ish!
would love to see more of these tier lists at some point. ranking atari's '80s arcade games would be really fun (PAPERBOY! GAUNTLET! MARBLE MADNESS! SUPER SPRINT! KLAX!) though it might involve a little too much research, and probably be a long vid with somewhere around 50 titles to put in order.
Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for the suggestion. I really enjoyed making this one. The Bitmaps had the perfect amount of games to make this video and is played so the games were extensively. It's difficult to think of another tier list that would work as well. Psygnosis has been suggested, but there are way more titles and plenty I haven't played.
I was also guilty as charged with the mispronunciation of Cadaver, Marc! Yeah, apart from the beautiful graphics, great music and the best shop on the ST what exactly DOES Xenon 2 bring to the table?.......haha Nah, you make some valid points. I'd personally place it slightly higher - as I would with Magic Pockets - but if I'm being honest with myself they'd likely be getting bumped up for nostalgic reasons. As you said at the start, the Bitmap Brothers appeared to concentrate on style over substance but I don't think any could be classed as bad games, per se. No question about it, definitely do more of these vids over the festive season (and beyond).....whack some festive lights on in the background and/or stick a Father Christmas hat on as well whilst you're at it!
No doubt that nostalgia plays a huge part in our estimation of these games, and so it should. It's this kind of heart and soul that makes old games and hearing old codgers talking about them so appealing! :D
I really enjoyed making this video, so I think there will be more in the pipeline. I've just got to think of a subject. I did think of doing a football game tier list. I think that would be a lot of fun!
As many are aware, Speedball must have derived from the 1975 James Caan film Rollerball, by way of inspiration. I first saw the film around 1993, had a hold-on-a-minute! moment and made the connection, lol.
Great video, yes please do make some more 👍
I've never seen it beyond a few clips and maybe a trailer, but the influence is pretty obvious. Is it actually a good movie though? Worth a watch? Thanks for the kind words!
@@thejoyofsticks Imo it's pretty good. It has that mid 70s film aesthetic of a dystopic future, similar to Soylent Green or Omega Man. Thanks and I'm keen to see you further the series 👍
New subscriber - loving your vids! For me, Gods was, and still is as I continue to play it, one of my favourite games on the ST. All BB games are difficult, but they all reward repeat gameplay. Probably played Speedball 2 the most of all of them.
Thank, Jamie! That’s lovely to hear, glad you are enjoying the videos. Gods felt clunky and awkward to me upon playing it, but you are certainly correct, the more you play, the more you get used to the character's movement and the progress you make is pretty rewarding. The gods in the Ancient Greek myths were unyielding and punishing, so why should the game be any different? 😂
If we're talking about the ST versions, then I'd say:
S =
A = Speedball; Speedball 2; Cadaver; Gods
B = Xenon; The Chaos Engine
C = Xenon 2; Magic Pockets
F =
The Chaos Engine needed a proper STe version then it'd have ranked higher!
edit: good idea, BTW. Now what about a Core Design tier list? :)
edit2: Xenon 2 has shared staff with some other Bitmap Brothers games (same graphic artist (Mark Coleman) and musician (David Whittaker) as Speedball for instance). The Assembly Line did the programming. So I think that it can legit count as a Bitmap Brothers game.
Core was on my to do list! Some great games there, for sure. Good shout on the STE version of Chaos Engine. More colours, hardware scrolling. Mmm, nice.
Thanks for the clarification re Xenon 2. Glad I included it now.
@@thejoyofsticks You're welcome buddy, I always love to dig the development side of things.
Now about my tier list, maybe that I should have put the two Speedball games as "S tier". Gods would have been S had it got the gameplay tweaks of the console versions but it's still a very good game on the ST and that sweet intro song is a huge plus. And Xenon would have been A or maybe even S if that game had more variety of stages and an actual ending.
I agree with most of what you said here but I think Xenon 2 deserves to be higher. It does have slightly iffy collision detection at times but once you've equipped plenty of weapon upgrades that tends not to be an issue. The alien shopkeeper is done beautifully and the firepower you can muster gets insane!
That shopkeeper is absolutely great although it is only a gimmick really, it adds so much to the experience. What tier would you have placed it in?
@@thejoyofsticks alongside Speedball 1 and Xenon, though I'd knock Xenon 1 down a notch :)
Very interesting idea - would also like to see Psygnosis games done like this. Or, maybe ST flight sims - it would be a much bigger list / longer video though. Would be nice to play through the best (or worst) ones :)
I would be the last person on Earth qualified enough to do a video like this on flight sims! :D I had thought of doing a Psygnosis one though, as they are a legendary software house that would go on to very big things!
Really cool! I actually didn't know about the first Xenon game, and how innovative it was. Waggling the joystick does sound a bit iffy.
The Amiga had a shooter which had a really solid alternative - Battle Squadron. In Battle Squadron, you activated a smart bomb by pressing the fire button and swirling the joystick in a circle. This was very effective - no false triggers, and you could reliably set it off in a fraction of a second.
Unfortunately, the swirl was only easy with an actual joystick. If you had a NES style gamepad controller? Good luck with that!
I've never played Battle Squadron, so I'll have to give that a shot sometime (sshh, don't tell anyone, but I have Amigas too). That control solution sounds far superior. It's hard to believe that the Bitmaps wouldn't have seen the unintentional switching during playtesting.
I played IK+ with a Master System controller once. Not to be recommended. :D
@@thejoyofsticks It's definitely worth trying out. It seems to be frequently considered the "best shooter" on the Amiga, although I really can't point to any specific thing that makes it the "best". All I know is that we played the heck out of it. It's just a lot of fun.
Love these tier series videos (some other game channels i follow also do this), i don't always agree, but it is interesting none the less. Do more! Maybe Gremlin next?
Agreeing is boring! Please rip into my ridiculous opinions and how flipping idiotic they are! :D Gremlin is a good shout. I'll add it to the 'possible' list.
good stuff! I'd perhaps have gods slightly higher but the rest was very agreeable and interesting to hear your views on game design etc
Thanks for the feedback, Steve! It would be interesting to hear your pitch for Gods.
Great video mate and great minds must think alike...remember I said I may get a video out by the end of lockdown. Well I've got all this bitmap brothers footage and you've pipped me to the post 🤣🤣.
Mine's gonna be a bit different. I hope you don't mind me putting it out anyway in a week or so.
Nice! That sounds amazing and I can't wait to see it. If it's a tier list I am so sorry! Promise I didn't hack into your hard drive to steal all of your ideas.
Nice to see Xenon 2 as a C. Its like flying through treacle 🤣
YASS! The anti X2 army is growing! :D
I think Bitmaps, Psygnosis and Cinemaware holds the throne of great looking games, any others that i forgot (im sure)?
That's a great list. I think some would add Core Design and Thalion too.
i remember "motormouth"! haha yes.. magic pockets was on that show
Didn't they have some others too? I vaguely remember Weird Dreams.
@@thejoyofsticks yea, weird dreams was certainly on one of those morning shows. Couldnt say which one though!
We were mesmerised by it, as kids!
marc congrats on your movember.. personally i love your more free flowing videos like this one and the live streams.. and the topic of this is brilliant.. are you going to do a psygnosis one? you might have to split it over a couple of videos but it would be fascinating.
I love that.. when you said about xenon 2.. " i don't see why people like it.. apart from the graphics, the sound and the presentation!" lolol I would have put X2 in B.. defo.. I agree with you about game play.
I think it scored high on your survey because like shadow of the beast, xenon 2 defined a moment.. i know it was one of those games that literally convinced people to buy a 16bit machine. when I first heard the bomb the bass intro my jaw dropped.. same with shadow of the beast and it's incredible parallax scrolling..
Thanks Baz! That feedback is invaluable. I did have Psygnosis on my list to do. I think it will be a bit quicker, with less time spent discussing each game though. I'll have to practice at being more eloquent and less waffly.
You are so right about the 'showcase' game. When I first started seeing STs in shops, they were showing Defender of the Crown and it was like watching the future (ironically, for a game about the past) and made us all covet one desperately. I even convinced myself into liking Shadow of the Beast when I was little. It is a showcase, but very little in the way of gameplay and has now become synonymous with that period of decline for the ST in favour of the Amiga in publishers/developers eyes.
Great idea for a video and spot on tiering too! X2 was boring but I loved Xenon, don't think ever managed to transform using the joystick though, I certainly wasn't aware of it at least :)
How about a video on the ST Power Pack? Then again, might be too many games perhaps :P
Thanks, buddy! Maybe you had a version without waggle transforming? Do you still have it? Could you confirm? :O
The Power Pack! I hadn't thought about doing a tier list for that. I did think about doing a video about it. Now it's perfect! Thanks, you bloody genius!
@@thejoyofsticks just tried the same version of Xenon I used to play and the waggle transforming is definetely there. It's been so long and I suppose I just never noticed the connection, either that or I only remembered the good stuff. Waggle or no waggle, not much has changed since the old days it seems as I still get annihilated within seconds on sector 2 😀
Great video. I also think Speeball 2 and The Chaos Engine are head and shoulders above the rest. Xenon 2 was a technical showcase -- but the actual gameplay felt really boring. I have a soft spot for Magic Pockets, as it has old school British charm, so I'd put it in Tier B.
Thanks, Kingston! Magic Pockets certainly stands out from the rest of the Bitmap games because of its lighter, more cutesy theme. And as you said, the Britishness really shines through. That Betty Boo soundtrack certainly adds to that.
Anyway, great video my friend. The Bitmap brothers are my absolute favourite game designers ever. All their games were superb, with speciall care to the amazibg graphics and music, as nowere else did in that time. I think that Magic Pokets should be an A... fantastic game.
Thanks, Joan. Glad you enjoyed it! Great to hear from a Bitmap fan. What is it about Magic Pockets that you like?
@@thejoyofsticks In fact, everything. The intro music, the great graphics... and it’s a funny game, very colourful and addictive. It’s a great adventure through a lot of beautiful levels, I remember myself going crazy trying to find the correct wayout in the maps, I had lots of fun throwing away these maniac giant stone-hurricanes (or wathever the hell are) to the enemies! Maybe you have to give it another chance dude.
Having watched your top 50 series the rankings and comments here weren't too surprising :) I'd say Speedball II is the one I had the most fun with back in the day, and Chaos Engine feels like it has aged well - I'd love to see a modern take on that franchise.
And I tried so hard to disguise my own opinions during the top 50! :D I worry about modern remakes, especially when they don't understand the character of the originals. If they could do a faithful update, I'd give it a go!
Agree on Xenon 2, but I think you were a little harsh on Magic Pockets
Maybe I was a little harsh. Based on the first level alone, Magic Pockets is one of the best platforming experiences on the ST, but from then on, the inflated difficulty of the enemies just makes the game a slog.
Ditto, I freakin loved Xenon. The speech at the start of the levels, I think it was "Sector1,2 etc", blew my little mind as a kid. I agree though, the joystick wiggle was slightly annoying. Many thanks for the list.
Living in Australia where the ST was never popular at all (most people had NES), all we had was the power pack, so seeing the other games that were available in Europe/US is always great. Dad did buy an Atari ST magazine at the time and I drooled over the game ads in it, dreaming...
Also, should have left the mo on, just grew it out. Its what we call a chopper mo' here in Austraia (ie Chopper Reid, look him up if unfamiliar with this delightful person)
Yes! "GET READY FOR SECTOR ONE!" Loved it. Sometimes we would reboot just to hear it again! :D
Great that you had the Power Pack at least. That was a cracking starter set of games. Did you not even get cracked, copied games over in Australia?
A chopper! Yes! I was searching for that name for it through the whole month! I plumped for calling it a 'Hogan'.
I loved Xenon, but it is not a good game. As a graphics/audio demo, as experience - it is great. It looks and sounds incredibly cool. But as a shoot-em-up game it is garbage.
I was equally impressed by Metal Mutant back in the days. And that game is also not great gameplay-wise. But if you can accept it as quirky trial and error cinematic adventure game with some impressive if clunky combat as a bonus, you can enjoy it on its own.
But Xenon 2 is a shooter game, there's nothing else to it. And, as a shooter, it is crap, though beautiful-looking.
P.S. Completed Tyrian and while it is way better, still not a fan. If you played any of the japanese ones, just don't compare. Neither stylistically, not gameplay-wise.
Love this format.Perhaps you could do similar videos RE:OCEAN, U.S GOLD, PSYGNOSIS etc?.(Just an idea)
Great minds think alike! 😉 A Psygnosis one is definitely on my radar.
Great list and I really do enjoy your reasoning.
For me Magic Pockets was a great game. I agree the later levels kind of screwed the game play. But for someone like me who rarely got past the first couple of worlds on games I loved it. I think I had the Demo for years before getting the full game. Its an "A" game for me ;)
The Chaos Engine, apart from the graphics, I always found way too hard and boring to be honest. Its a game I would load up and try again at many times, but never enjoyed! That would probs be a "C" for me.
Another I loved was Gods, but yeah the game play was way too cluncky. Also, I always got stuck around level 3 or 4 I think. So found it so frustrating that I loved teh game but couldnt get anywhere on it.
Cool video mate.
Great idea for a video. I almost agree completely with your thoughts. I might have put Magic Pockets and Xenon 2 in "F", simply because I never managed to get any enjoyment from those games. Chaos Engine and Speedball 2 easily deserve to be up there.
It's that old rosy bastard nostalgia again, isn't it? I still have fond memories of Magic Pockets thanks to Motormouth and the demo on the cover disk (was it Zero magazine?). And then, I played a ton of Xenon 2 as a nipper thanks to the crackers trainer mode that gave you an invulnerable ship. I used to play it as a sight-seeing game, just to see the awesome graphics and have fun building a ship from all the cool power ups, trying different loadouts each time.
Magic pockets was my absolute favourite game. We had only only demo of the first level for a long time and my sister and I would try and get the highest score playing it over znd over.
I will listen to you having a good old natter about some games anytime.
Thanks for the kind words, Mr Goat! Most appreciated.
We want more!
Yes sir!
Brilliant video and great format to use. Just because it's simple doesn't mean you should avoid it. A friend of mine Old School Gaming does C64/Amiga videos and they're fantastic but he doesn't try for anything too fancy, he just does it very well.
As for your choices I agree with them all, mostly, apart from Xenon 2. Maybe I was starved of shooters, but I am genuinely not very good at the genre, yet I managed to finish Xenon 2 without cheating. I don't think it was too hard. I like that they didn't just make the enemies take more hits (the lazy way they did in Pockets) and instead you needed to upgrade your weapons to do it. I like that you didn't lose powerups on death - it makes R-type etc much, much less fun for casual play. I have only just got my Mega STE up and running and I'm waiting on an ArcadeR coming (in ST colours!) so I will try Xenon 2 again and see how I do. I did try it briefly and made it through level 1 just fine and into level 2 before I ran out of time.
Cadaver - or as I somehow called it Cad, A, Ver (not quite the same mispronunciation as you) I had on pirate as a kid. It's now boxed on my shelf (they all are apart from Pockets) and I will be properly trying it again. It's my type of game, I just did not give it the time properly as a kid.
For Gods I do not like the twitchy nature of platformers where you have complete control of your character. The reason being that gameplay then forces you to take complete control of your character and you have to pull off fancy movement heavily based on reactions. Maybe that's why I like Xenon 2 so much, you have to do a bit more planning than reacting? So with Gods you have to work with the limitations. It can be frustrating because you want your dude to do something and you've already told him something else and there's no changing it, but that's got a good side to it as well.
Cannon Fodder, Speedball 1 and 2, Magic Pockets and Xenon you're spot on with. I would move Xenon 2 and Gods up to A.
If you do more of these type of videos you will find an additional difficulty because for this one we all know the games, maybe not in detail but at least to some degree. I think there will be ranges where we don't so maybe you'll need to go into more detail on each title.
Thanks for the kind words and feedback, Raptor! Most appreciated. Great to hear that a non-shooter fan has managed to get through Xenon 2. You have spurred me on to giving it another try, maybe after watching some videos of someone who is actually good at playing the game.
Whats an ArcadeR? Is that the new joystick that someone is making? You'll have to let me know if it's any good.
Fascinating to hear your take on Gods. I'd never considered that a less responsive character could actually be something desirable. I'll certainly bear that in mind next time I play and try to approach it with that mindset. Hey, I might even enjoy the game more!
You are absolutely right. The Bitmap Brothers games really suited this kind of video. I thought about doing Psygnosis next, as there are plenty of familiar games as well as some that people don't know as well. Then people may think "oh, game X I don't know was in the same tier as game Y, maybe I should give game X a go?" I thought about including a little gameplay video of the game too to help people get a feel for it.
@@thejoyofsticks the ArcadeR is yeah, it's most similar to a Comp Pro, although I used Zipstiks and it's really not far off that either. My friend Mark Fixes Stuff has reviewed them on his channel. They're quite open to being modded. You can buy them in the UK from ZXrenew, but I've had to order from China to get the ST colour.
Psygnosis will be more difficult than Bitmap Brothers, but it'll give you a chance to play a lot of games at least.
@@DaveVelociraptor I use a Zipstick too! I switch between that and The Arcade. Great joysticks that have quite literally stood the test of time. I've found the ArcadeR joysticks at ZXRenew and I remember looking at them a while ago. I have about 5 Zipsticks here in various conditions, as well as several other sticks, so I don't think I'll get one, but it's great to know that someone is manufacturing a new stick. The original hardware can only last so long, after all.
Don't diss magic pockets 😂
😅So sorry! But I find little enjoyment beyond the first level. Is there a way to power up your attack that I'm just not seeing?
@@thejoyofsticks Other than holding the fire button down for large tornadoes to capture the enemies, then the higher you jump from into them, you get more bonuses, not that I know of.
Yes, totally agree with you.
I think all in all you got the list right. I have a real soft spot for Cadaver, as you rightly point out it really was a spiritual successor to Knight Lore and Alien 8 and games of that ilk. Speedball is fun as is its sequel.
I've never really gotten on with the Xenon games. First one I think is okay, second is a lot of bling but little in the way of real gameplay. Chaos Engine is a classic for all time. Magic Pockets I've never really liked. I like platformers but MP didn't do it for me.
Cheers, Ronnie! I opened myself up for some flak on this one, but most seem to agree with my assessments so far!
Totally agree with you on Xenon 2.
YASS! Another one. 🤣
Pretty accurate, although I think Gods needs a little more love and Cadaver a little less.
There seems to be a lot of agreement in the comments section on this. I'm pleasantly surprised! Just wait for the next one. There'll be riots, mate.
this is certainly the correct opinion! ^ :D
Great analysis! I completely agree on Xenon 2, and indeed all the other rankings except Magic Pockets. It has a very similar game engine to Gods but in the “cutesy platform romp” style (before the market was saturated with such games) so my opinion the two games deserve to be equal. (In fact, perhaps “third tier” feels a bit hard on both now I think about it.)
Thanks WB! I was expecting to be excommunicated from the gaming community for my views on Xenon 2, but it seems that quite a few people share my dislike for the game. It's worth bearing in mind that these games are only 'third tier' on a list of games from an elite 16 bit games developer! They would feature higher when considering the broader quality of the ST catalogue.
When I was a kid, I also thought Gods gameplay design is bad and renders a game bad, but after 20+ years I have tried it on Symbian phone emulator, with horific input controler (Nokia 6680) and finaly figured out game mechanics! It is a great game and not at all hard when you realize enemy patterns. As for Magic Pockets, game mechanics is interesting but also good when you get a hang of it. I never got into Speedball, it was stoopid to me. Xenons are terrible. I played Chaos Engine to the death, back in the day! Excellent gane although it also took me a while to figure out game mechanics.
That's too funny. It took you 20 years and a Nokia to realise Gods is worth your time. 🤣
I can't remember if I mentioned it in the video, but Magic Pockets is quite easier until one level where the enemies just get ridiculously tanky and hard to kill. Am I missing something?
Hey a new video, comment in the start few seconds. Just waiting for more !!! Take it easy enjoy, for our enjoyment !!
Merci Julien! J'espère que vous avez aimé la vidéo!
Love this kind video!!
Do ithem per publisher!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I enjoyed making it, so I think I will. Do you have any other developers you'd like to see?
Bob's list:
S = Chaos Engine
A = Speedball, Gods
B = Cadaver, Magic Pockets, Xenon, Xenon 2
C = Speedball II
F = none
Nice one, Bob. It's a testament to their quality that neither of our lists places a game of theirs in the F tier. Nice to see that I wasn't so crazy placing Chaos into the tippy top tier. But you have placed Speedball 2 in the C tier and must now delete your internet.
@@thejoyofsticks I'm sorry Mr McStickhead, but I do have my standards!
🤣
Gods, Xenon 2, The Chaos Engine and Speedball 2 are all S tier games for me.
Deffo agree with Xenon II
Another one! The army is growing! :D
Agree with you on Xenon 2! I'd rather play Plutos.
YES! Plutos doesn't have Bomb the Bass or the fancy shop, but it nails the gameplay loop. Sometimes simplicity is better.
No, no, this is wrong. All wrong I tell you! 😂😂 I jest. Really great video - as always 😊. In the interests of healthy disagreement, I have to fly the flag for Xenon II. Clearly a triple A title. Played to completion with my mates - one controlling the ship (via Euromax ZipStick 🕹️) and one hitting the fire button (mouse or space bar) until his fingers bled 😂 Speedball 2 is also great fun but doesn't come close to the original for me. SB2 has the graphics and sounds but lost the heart and soul of the original in the upgrade 😞 Speedball was a high-octane, super fast-paced adrenaline hit. I felt SB2 never quite hit that level. A bit like Kick off / Kick off 2 😊
:D Even I look back at my ratings in this video and argue with them! You're not the only person I've heard that prefers the original Speedball. I try to look at it through your lens, but I just don't see it. I guess it's one of those 'first love' things. A bit like me swearing until I'm blue in the face that Championship Manager 93 is better than all the Champ Mans and Football Managers that followed it! :D
Kick Off better than Kick Off 2? No you are just stark raving bonkers! 🤣 I can't play Kick Off without after touch!
Great idea for videos! Next do Thalion please.
That's a great shout, Fredrik! People seem to overlook Thalion a lot, but they produced so many great games.
@@thejoyofsticks They may be in the same boat as Bitmap, style over substance. I’m a big fan who has come to admit I like the idea of Thalion more than the games released.
Weirdly agree with pretty much all of this - although I'd have been harsher on Xenon 2. It's really more a tech demo than a game IMHO. *runs*
There's a certain purity with the original Xenon which i prefer, from the early ST days where the graphics had a very metallic look
@@16BiTCreative Yes, I much prefer the original too. It's just a good game.
Lots of people agreeing with me here. I was expecting to get burned at the stake. :D
Purity! Yes! Damn, I wish I'd used that word to describe why Xenon is superior.
@@thejoyofsticks one of my early personal favorites for the ST, will certainly be booting Xenon up during the Xmas period on the old school CRT
Agree with all placements except Xenon 2 (F). It's a very poor game, bad difficulty done cynically, it's quite slow and boring to play, and many people only loaded it up for the Bomb The Bass intro. Don't waste your time with it!
My only problem with Xenon is exactly the one you mentioned, I too often swap forms unintentionally and like you I hoped someone would patch that out by now.
Well done on the charity money, by the way. Hope your calf recovers asap.
I couldn't put it in F because I really enjoyed playing through it with an infinite energy cheat when I was a lad. Played it like a sight-seeing game and it was fun building up the ship in different ways with different power ups each run through. But I agree with your sentiment whole-heartedly.
Thanks for the kind words!
lol playing the ST next to the Dreamcast
My faithful ST has always been set up next to the flavour of the month. Being able to switch between Soul Calibur and IK+ was a blessing!
I don't get the hype about Chaos Engine. Maybe I should give it another try. But for me it's B atm.! Yes, Xenon 2 is a tough one, but much more straight forward than the first Xenon with it's annoying morphing ship. First Xenon for me is much more frustrating with it's non-fluid gameplay (back and forth etc.) and get's an B, while X2 definetly A!
But hey, it's all very subjective of course. I'm more a fan of simple gameplay. 😁
It would be interesting to hear if your opinion changes after giving it another go, Tpau. Like so many gaming memories, it's permanently interwoven with nostalgia. I played it when I traveled up to Crewe to visit a mate who was at college there. That game will always be linked with that memory.
Interesting to hear your take on Xenon, and you are right about the back and forth. It can break the flow and maybe that's why they tried to include the command for transformation on the joystick?
Am i too much of an Atari ST nerd if i have played all the games in your musical intro section? Am i a nerd?? Please say im not!
No mate, just a man of good taste! 👍
On the last level of Cadaver I could only find 9/10 gems never managed to finish it now I have an ST again it'll be back on the list!!! S/A for sure!!!! They did a few games on Saturday mornings Knightmare aah there was another one I can see in my head but I cant remember the name of it was really weird. S - Xeon, Xenon 2, Cadaver A - Speedball, Speedball 2 B - The Chaos Engine C - Everything else :P Xenon 2 was waaaay easier than Xenon super nashwan power ftw. You're so wrong Xenon2 was a massive game at the time you're just hating on it because it sounds like you sucked at it :P
Oooh! I knew it! In the nane of god! What the hell you did to my Xenon 2 ?!!😂😂 ok, where do I have to click to cancel my subscription? Unacceptable dude! 🤣
Oof! 😂 I knew that was coming. Sorry Joan!
S The Chaos Engine
A Speedball
B Xenon
C Magic Pockets, Gods, Speedball II
F Xenon 2
Never played Cadaver so I can't say.
Speedball II rates so low just because it felt like a regression of Speedball to me, they tried to do too much. Xenon 2 was just repetitive garbage.
That's the thing isn't it? If you love a game, sequels can be more of a curse than a blessing. That's the case for me with lots of games that I played the original of first. Lotus Esprit Turbo Challenge is the prime example. And Championship Manager. I like how simple those iterations are over their sequels.
Xenon 2 is the one of the most overrated computer games of its time. To find something that plays worse as a shmup you have to go into 8-bit territory. Cool music yes, but it's only one for the whole game. Stylish graphics but good luck telling the difference between levels, as they all look almost the same. And you feel underpowered no matter what, even the reverse scrolling doesn't help much, it's just clunky. Probably, with well designed levels they wouldn't have needed that gimmick. It pales in comparison to a game like Wings of Death, which really shows the ST can do a great shmup but is not nearly as well regarded.
Cheers, Amerigo! It's nice to know I'm not alone in my estimation of Xenon 2, even if it did make number 3 (NUMBER 3!?) on the Top 50 this year: thejoyofsticks.com/the-top-50-atari-st-games
Ah, Wings of Death... now we are talking! That's a game. Unfortunately all of Thalion's catalogue undersold. More due to marketing then anything, I feel.
You should not be afraid of criticizing Xenon 2. Its former fans grew up considerably and, unless they haven't played any more games since or still retain intellectual level of a kid, will agree, that the gameplay was kinda crap.
But for someone who never even saw western or japanese arcade games back then, it sure looked insanely cool. Modern critics probably won't understand that.
Having said that, I don't think that gameplay requiring memorization is necessarily bad. R-Type is a highly acclaimed game and does this a lot. Everything else, and reliance on auto fire in particular, yes. It is ridiculous, how much harder this game gets without autofire.