Commodifying Bi Validation: Loki vs Russell T Davies
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- čas přidán 30. 09. 2021
- Loki. Russell T Davies. Bisexuality. Disney. I've got a few things to say.
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@@jamesbates9038i agree. verily presents information in such a “professional” way whilst also feeling like a cool friend you’d wanna hang out with. Such an eloquent speaker with a warm personality. Loving her content so far ❤ (especially the stuff about doctor who hehe)
“If you want a super bisexual show, make it yourself.” HE DID. IT’S CALLED TORCHWOOD. 😂
literally ALL of the characters as well
(Except Ianto, of course. And -- probably -- Gwen, who was more bicurious in ep 1, but then promptly coded as straight.)
That, and practically all of Doctor Who lol
@@NicoleM_radiantbaby Ianto is bi. Owen is the one who is arguably straight.
@@cameronjosephvideos5942 IDK. I mean, labels are tricky, but Ianto considered himself a straight man. Jack was an exception. For example, when his sister asked him about it in 'Children of Earth', he said: "It's weird. It's just different. *It's not men, it's just him. It's only him.* And I don't even know what it is, really, so. So I'm not broadcasting it." 🤷
Jack constantly starting to flirt with someone only for the Doctor to impatiently and IMMEDIETLY shut it down was my favourite running gag.
Right?! Like, I swear that at one point the Doctor basically told Jack to not talk at all 😂
If it _didn't_ happen, and I'm mis-remembering, then it still totally would've been in-character if it _had_ 😂😂
Right?! It's the best gag and every fucking time it got a laugh out of me.
Doctor Who being so queer had huge positive impacts. It was almost like it mocked humans for their homophobia- the rest of the universe does what it pleases
To my autistic self it was also a funny thing to not get it at all, see the doctor scolding him, go "oh, he was flirting!" and then recognize the signs next time around
Yeah, back then, Doctor Who knew how to do representation. Not like today, when they try to do the same thing and end up being transphobic by accident. That's the difference between well-made and sincere representation, nuanced message etc. and just lazily done, insincere representation. @@hastyswept5486
Just in case, I am not being sarcastic, I genuinely loved how they did it before and dislike how they do it now. Jack was an AMAZING character.
Jack isn't promiscuous because he's bisexual, he's promiscuous because he's Jack ❤
I mean, we don't really get to see anyone else from the 41st(?) century to compare him to - apart from maybe Cptn. John Hart? So it could be a Jack thing or it could just be a 41st century thing 😅
@@TigerPrawn_Good point. How promiscuous would someone from the 1st century find us in the 21st? I genuinely don’t know.
Exactly, and we love him for it
"why doesn't he fall in love with the black loki? i'll give you two guesses" fucking destroyed marvel with two sentences
Isnt that a stereotype of bi people though? They don't fall in love with everyone at the drop of a hat
I think I get it but could you clarify what it means please?
@@archivist_13 racism
@@reesesapphire267 ok so I guessed right
@@archivist_13 and homophobia
"If you want a bisexual show make one yourself"
"Who tf is Russel T Davis"
😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀💀
I have no words. But apparently I have emojis.
I read that "make one yourself" comment and my brain just rebooted. I couldn't even process it.
Well put
Came here to say this, but in my heart I knew it had already been said.
He made a bisexual show. It's called Torchwood
Yeah... someone saying
"If you want a bisexual show make one yourself" to the person who made Torchwood was hilarious! 🤣😂🤣
Taika Waititi filmed a scene of a girl coming out of Valkyrie's room, but it was deleted. Thanks, Disney 🙄
Fuck Disney. Meanwhile Waititi has been able to do such a good job with the bi rep in What We Do in the Shadows!
Wish that was suprising, but Disney gotta appease those Chinese overlords.
@@peterbarlow5709 Money is their only overlord. They decided it was profitable to remove that scene from the US release too. Can't blame everything on China, no mater how convenient it might seem.
@@georgejpg True. That being said, China is not progressive & they have some of the most spending power globally.
@@LaserBungalow China has only pretty recently become a major audience for Disney- and have become somewhat of a scapegoat for Disney's censoring. The original Mulan for example absolutely flopped in China because of the way it misrepresented Chinese culture- but the movie still did exceedingly well in both the box office and after- even without that audience. China may have a degree of influence over the movies, but historically we can see that Disney is not dependent enough on Chinese audiences for money to cater their films quite so heavily for them.
The reality is that Disney has to take a "family friendly" approach for Western audiences as well. It's the same reason employees at Disney World's aren't allowed to say anything pro-queer on the job, for risk of misrepresenting the Disney brand. The Western conservative audience for Disney is huge- and without them Disney's expanding oligopoly would be dangerously unsustainable for them.
Disney wants to be our friend though. And they want to drop little breadcrumbs to appeal to the large segment of their younger demographic, that is far queerer and far less queerphobic.
The "it's just to appease China" line is a convenient narrative to frame Disney as innocent and doing their best, rather than complicit and profiteering. And China gets to be a nice little boogey man scapegoat. A role that is made even easier to believe by racial and cultural bias against China
One thing I will always remember about Jack Harkness is when he kisses both Rose and the Doctor when he thinks he’s going to die, he kisses them in the exact same way. Idk why but that always resonated with me
it will forever be one of my favourite scenes for sure!
Jack is the best
I'm pretty sure it was intended to be a kiss with the same emotion, maybe that came through strongly for you.
yeah that changed my brain chemistry I swear to god
YES! I love this moment! It’s so sweet and they don’t make a huge deal of it and it feels like a really nice casual piece of representation that wasn’t common when that episode aired in 2005.
I think the best thing about Jack's presentation of bisexuality compared to Lokis is that Jack's bisexuality is expressed through his actions and his behaviour. Loki's on the other hand, is told to the audience and never shown
In good storytelling, you "show, don't tell" - mainly because, if you tell, you can go back on it and say "oh, that character was lying" and such
Thus, if it's not shown, it's not true
And Loki spent 3 seconds on it. I'm sorry but I was really disappointed.
@@MicukoFelton The time isn't really as important to me. If Jack had said "hey guys by the way I'm bisexual" every episode, that wouldn't be better than it happening once in Loki. I would much prefer one short instance where that trait was shown rather than any number of times when it was told.
@@tgoas3503 instead of a “a bit of both” scene that is as short as my patience, it would have been way more effective and right to show loki being interested in some man. even if it were a very short scene it would still have done a better job than his 4 words ever could. not saying it’s the proper way to do it, but it’d be better than what happened.
@@tgoas3503 I mean, that's what I meant? Torchwood spent time on Jack establishing he's bi (not talking about him saying he's bi, I'm including him showing it) while Loki took 3 seconds.
Captain Jack Harkness means so much to me because they didn’t go the Disney route of going “oh look, a gay character!! We’re so progressive!! Say thank you, you grovelling idiots!” They treated it as completely normal, Jack is so casual in his flirting and his flirting with men is reacted to with the same eye-rolling from the Doctor as his flirting with women. THAT’S amazing rep in my book. I just want to be treated like normal
Jack just straight up kissed the doctor on the lips and everyone was like "Cool" even the doctor was like "Thanks man" It was so nice
I second this. I think one of many flaws in Disney's loki is that they seem to have tried to make it casual like this. But not for the right reasons. Sure, Loki didn't make a big deal out of it when he confimed that he was bisexual, and I would absolutely love "casually okay queerness" from Disney given their track record. But while the actual line making his bisexuality cannon very much fell in line with this, their marketing around it, like you said, was just them patting themselves on the back for making Loki a queer character and the representation they were bringing to their media. But in the show itself, aside from this one line, there is no other sign or hint of Loki being anything other than straight (and if there is, they're small enough moments that they didn't stand out to me, I don't remember them, and they could easily be edited out in the versions shown in less progressive countries)
@@meganvincent5381 how normal everyone reacted, it was so...yes!
RTD even made gay side characters like those old lesbians from Gridlock
it’s a shame barrowman is a horrible person
I love how one of the comments was "if you want a bisexual show make one" someone has never seen Torchwood XD
I cried so much after finishing children of the earth, like legit broke down
Torchwood is one of my favorite TV shows for this specific reason. I could talk for hours about how revolutionary that show was for LGBT representation at the time.
The comments shown all scream "marvel fans who say they're into sci Fi but really have watched all the MCU movies, 2 ex men movies, and wonder woman"
Best plant in PvZ 1. .
Yessss that show is probably the reason I'm bi 😆
That was like what, 2010 or something? For being a early 2000s spin off, torchwood has better representation than like 90% of shows today lol
"If you want a super bisexual show, make one yourself you cry baby" -- written to a man who wrote the bi-est show in 2006 which continues to be bi af by 2022 standards 😂
I remember Disney announcing Loki being bi as “he will have both male and female love interests.” And then it was “yes I’ve been with both” and I was like… that’s not what you said.
Oh my gosh, you're right!! I totally forgot they did that. Yeah....that is not what happened.
That's disney for you wanting the money of queer people but also still wanting the money of the conservatives so they means breadcrumbs for us if we are lucky
But that happens with a lot of Disney stuff (Marvel is under the Disney banner now). Live action Beauty and the Beast declared they would have a gay character, and instead of playing up Lefou's crush on Gaston, there's a blink and miss it dance where Lefou (in a country dance, similar in some ways to square dancing, where partners switch up sometimes) ends up dancing with a guy. It just keeps happening.
@@nancyjay790 at this point, a company anouncing a queer character before the media drops makes me not want to watch it. It's become a fairly transparent marketing strategy - though I understand why LGBTQ+ people cling to hope and get it crushed every time. I would've watched Loki 2 anyway, but the fact that they teased a male love interest after that "coming out" in season 1 now spells "idiot" right across my forehead. Cause I actually got more excited. No more, Disney, no more.
i love being delusional so im going to interpret season 2 as Loki x Mobius
"because, of course, all portrayals of LGBT people are problematic if not as conservative as possible"
Hit the nail right on the head.
Pretty much. Unfortunately, I don't see that changing anytime soon now that so much media is composed of corporate mega products that have to sell globally, including in places where any kind of representation is more or less a complete non starter. That's why so much of the representation in these works is compartmentalized in a way that can easily be excised, glossed over in translation etc.
The best response to this, not about bisexual specifically, but about media flaunting feminism (which is pretty damn similar when it comes to it), is of course "You know, Amy, anytime someone calls attention to the breaking of gender roles, it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo."
Y'know, from freakin Sonic Boom.
@@user-do2ev2hr7h Russel T Davies wrote an episode of Doctor Who that is from 2005 where a bi-sexual or maybe pan man is introduced. There are scenes of him flirting n even kissing another man but it is like nbd when it occurs. At the time I rly thought nothing of it, cause I am just so used to a variety irl since I was a kid, sometimes I don't always think heyyy haven't seen that one before. I am not saying that Loki's rep was done wrong, but Davies made good rep over a decade ago and now he is just getting attacked for calling out what he saw as fake Disney wokeness. (tbh Loki is more genderfluid hetero in the comics before 2012, so that is likely why they worded why they did. He is not just pan, he is very much genderfluid.)
@@mandiblackwell4668 Sure, but the Jack Harkness portrayal was still fairly subtle, especially in its early days and as much as I love Dr. Who, it's not really the global juggernaut the MCU is these days. All I'm saying is the fact that these things are first and foremost consumer products designed for global consumption at the lowest common denominator is inevitably going to color how they handle various types of subject matter, representation being one.
@@user-do2ev2hr7h man jack really was not subtle lmao
Disney's way of doing "this character is queer" has the same energy as "my dad was in a band in college"
Your first major rockstar parent.
Coming out in 1975 as Bi was a royal pain in the ass. Told by both sides to get "off the fence". Often the outcast to both sides, with the only purpose to be a fetish as part of a three-way. What was most annoying was the assumption that whichever side I was with, I would be unfaithful. I am 62 years old and have NEVER cheated on a partner, regardless of their sex, gender identity. The assumption that I would be unfaithful just because I am bisexual is probably the most offensive thing.
News flash, we still get told that. Heck, I'm over 20 years younger than you, and I learned the language for what we are via the bi panic in the 90s. In many places its even worse
I remember in school during the 90s - any girl coming out as bi was "just looking for attention from boys" and any boy coming out as bi was "secretly gay but wouldn't admit it."
Of course, I never came out as bi - since my being trans was always the bigger issue to everyone.
Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective, it is incredibly valuable.
@@mariastevens640621 year old bi man. Graduated high school in 2021. It hasn't stopped. I can't tell you how many male friends of mine after me coming out said something to the effect of "Yeah I don't care just don't try to suck my dick" and it always baffled me that they just assumed I would want to have sex with them. Like do straight guys just want to have sex with every...... Oh nope that's it got it.
20:30 "The question of whether gay and bi men should be allowed to die in Davies' work sounds, to me, like a question of whether the authentic worldview of a gay man, who came of age in the 80s, should be filtered through the worldview of younger people who've never experienced that."
Oh boy. That's a hell of a sentence. You're right, and it adds a LOT more layers to Davies' work that I hadn't understood before. You've given me a lot to think about. Thank you.
I think it might be more well meaning older people who lived through the time where "bury your gays" wasn't just an option but a requirement.
But either way, of course queer people should be able to die in media. Especially if there are so many around as in Torchwood. It only ever has a sour taste when a show kills off their only queer character.
I know people always say anymore "I like queer characters whose stories doesn't revolve around their sexualities" like yes ok but those stories have barely been told for bi folks and ESPECIALLY not for bi men
Watch Crazy Ex-Girlfriend! Darryl, a man in his 40s, has a great bi coming out storyline, and then it’s also just a part of him, not his whole character.
@@mollypocrass4562 i'm g-g-g-gettin bi!!!
Quentin Coldwater, The Magicians. Bi protagonist, not the focus of his story but not brushed off either.
@@ellaisplotting Except when his male love interest invalidates him by implying he only got with him because there was no other choice of partner, the bi lead basically agrees, then gets back together with his ex gf despite there being an ongoing 'romance' with the male love interest, and then promptly kills himself as the resolution to his seasons long suicidal ideation and depression.
Like, I love Q and most of the other characters in the show, don't get me wrong, but the show is STILL allergic to bisexuality being named or validated. Margo can hit on pirate women so long as she's ostensibly only romantically interested in and in sexual or romantic relationships with men, Q can basically marry a guy so long as it's abundantly clear he prefers women and will always choose a woman if it's an option, and Eliot can admit to enjoying sex with women from time to time so long as it's only as a novelty and part of his hedonism rather than him being somewhere closer to the middle of the Kinsey scale.
@@katharineeavan9705 ...Yeah, ik. I'm not making any excuses for the end of s4 onwards, or how shy it is about naming bisexuality. We should have gotten explicitly bi Margo, and justice for Queliot. But it is a show with a bi male lead, with a canon male love interest, that isn't a bare bones parody of representation. It has major problems, but is still a great show, just one with a horrific ending.
Loki's sexuality reveal was so underwhelming I actually missed that part 2 twice before I realized it. Maybe from a lifetime of being black it annoys me when complanies made crumb gestures and everyone tries to say "representation".
I actually liked Loki's reveal. He's a god who's over a thousand years old so I'm sure he came to understand his sexuality over a millennium ago. His sexuality was never a focal point in his character arc over the course of the MCU so there was no reason to focus on it. So it coming up in a casual conversation felt natural.
@@tfarr8138I'm glad for anyone who liked it. I didn't hate it but, for me, the convo didn't seem very casual or realistic (if we are talking about thousand year old gods having a convo about love being the context.)
I like that it wasn't made a big deal, but also hope they delve more into the complexities of sexuality and the conversation as the series progresses, maybe if they listen to the critiques from the community we'll see more of that shown in season 2
I actually liked that they acknowledged Loki's bisexuality, because I though they wouldn't. I expect so little of Disney that the bare minimum feels like progress
@@MakiPcr Same. The bar is so, so low for Disney.
If Loki was a genuinely bisexual show, then Classic Loki and Crocodile Loki would be the old married couple we all deserve
Even if RTD was a nobody rando who wiped his butt with the constitution, "Disney's gay representation is still mostly just lip service and still abysmally conservative" should NOT be a controversial take.
I realize a lot of people are really attached to Loki. And the trailers make it look good enough that I would consider watching it, and coming from someone who hates superhero franchises, that's high praise indeed. But fam, these are just crumbs of representation! If you like the crumbs, why not demand the whole damn loaf already?!
late reply but definitely agree; disney was always queerphobic and transphobic (cough* walt); theyve always catered to conservative cishet parents...i need my subversive chaotic bi, genderqueer/genderfluid shapeshifter--not a one-note line by a cishet actor that cishets can easily dismiss
It always hurts me to remember how afraid everyone is to say the word "bisexual." I want to hear characters say "I'm bisexual."
EDIT: please don't reply against this comment I made 2 YEARS AGO if you have not yet googled "bisexual erasure." Or my reply will be "google bisexual erasure."
Yes! That type of representation would have been SO GREAT for me as a child, since all I had was hella biphobic "Glee" -- which of course meant I didn't think bisexuality was real until college.
You would love Crazy Ex Girlfriend then. One of the characters sings about being bisexual.
@@ivapetrova1303 I LOVE Crazy Ex-Girlfriend! It came out when I was in college (after I'd figured out I was bi and come out and everything), and I watched it religiously with my best friend at the time (now wife).
The way this sentence just made me have a mini panic attack, thinking about me mentioning this casually to coworkers… it really needs to be normalized.
@@ivapetrova1303 Shockingly, Trailer Park Boys is probably the best source of bisexual representation I've ever seen, with multiple characters (both "good" and "bad") being openly bi and actually saying the word from time to time, without ridicule, but as a totally normalized thing in the trailer park. There's even an amazing episode where one character who identified as gay discovers he's bisexual, and this information doesn't change anyone's perception about him in the slightest.
"Russel Davies is taking over Doctor Who again."
[hyperventilates]
I'm so pumped
Riiight? I'm so excited to tell my sis; we dropped off watching it mid-Capaldi era, and heard bad shit about the writing involving the Lady Doctor, but if Russell's coming back, he might bring the quality back up to where it was in the beginning, and holy shit was Tennant's run my favorite [of the NuWho; haven't hardly seen the earlier stuff]
@@TheKarret is he going to be writing for the Lady Doctor? Because I’d watch the fuck out of that
@@andynonymous6769 I think he'll be writing a bit for her, and then possibly transition in the new Doctor after that? idk if it'll be a super long run that he'd be writing for the Lady Doctor [unless he makes another Lady Doctor]
@@TheKarret he comes back in 2023, so she'll probably be long gone.
Jackie's line about her fears that one day rose might stop coming back to earth, to her own mother, that some time in her future she'd become a complete stranger wandering the universe - that's one of the many many parts of rtd's doctor who that shook me to my core even as a kid
When Jackie said that, my honest reaction was "why would that be so bad?" I understand Jackie wants to feel close to her daughter, but life should change us.
Loki’s bi “storyline” and it’s reception makes me so angry. Disney gave us the BARE minimum to suggest he is queer, not even using the word bisexual and people praise it like it’s the most progressive amazing thing ever and if you disagree you are bi/homophobic. Disney will never give us truly bisexual Loki because they’re so disgustingly apolitical to ensure profits. Corporations have never and will never care about queer representation until it’s profitable.
The part about bi people being unable to affirm their bisexuality the same way straight and gay people can hit pretty hard for me because I think the same is true for asexual people. Our actions of affirmation are really the absence of action, and I hadn't thought about affirmation that way before.
Yeah as an ace I'm always low-key invalidating myself internally because there's really nothing that I _do_ that's irrefutably asexual. But there are plenty of things that I could do that would make most people see me as allo. So what does it mean, materially, to be ace? I have no good answer to this
“Our actions of affirmation are really the absence of action” is an amazing way to put it
Because it's impossible to "prove a negative," and asexuality is not the same as sex-repulsion, feeling valid is difficult and finding community is hard.
This was exactly my thinking!
Gosh I loved this video so much, and loved the main talking point of RT Davies vs Loki
but the section at the end describing the Bi experience with coming out... I related to that so hard as an Asexual person
I always describe trying to describe being ace as like trying to describe what it's like to not have a tail. You first have to imagine what having a tail/experiencing sexual attraction is like in order to describe the dearth of that. I've also found my bisexual friends understand it much more easily, perhaps because in both their cases their sexual and romantic attractions tend to point in different directions, so they understand the separability of sexual and romantic attraction in a way that my hetero and homosexual friends don't because both attractions tend to point in the same direction.
His variant love interest could've been played by another male actor.
Actually all the variants of Loki we saw were men, except for the ONE he falls in love with....
and the alligator.
A vey lucky coincidence for heteronormativity 😈
Man, imagine the utter chaos if he fell in love with the alligator.
And it's so interesting that he, a ~genderfluid~ character and the most-pruned variant ever, asks a bunch of other pruned versions of himself if they had ever met a female variant and none of them had!
But surely, that's also another weird coincidence.
I wouldn't have minded him conveniently ending up with a female-presenting variant that conveniently resembles a straight-passing couple and still maintains Disney as conservative-friendly, if there had at least been more female variants! You're telling me that among the 20+ variants of himself that Loki met, the only one that was ~special~ was the only female one? And not like, the guy that had a bicycle as a headpiece? Really?
@@asdkotable to be fair that would still line up with canon considering his equine adventures
@@technopoptart yeah but he didn't fall in love with that horse, he just let it impregnate him for whatever reason
@@asdkotable you are correct it was only a one neigh stand
I solved the problem of “proving” I’m bi with polyamory. It’s hard to deny someone’s bisexual when they turn up to family events with their gf AND their bf 😂
Badass!
based!
Ahahh same!
That's certainly one way to go about it.
Cool! so then what about us who are monogamous and bi? How to solve the problem then? If the answer is "become polyamorous" that's not the right answer for those of us who are monogamous.
You look back at past with Torchwood and then examine the present of Loki and it honestly does feel like we are going backwards sometimes.
Meanwhile in DC and Warner Bros, Harley Quinn gets to hold hands with her girlfriend, proclaim romantic love to her girlfriend, kiss her girlfriend and have sex with her girlfriend. and Doom Patrol has a gay lead character that gets to have a romantic plot as well. And Doom Patrol also has a gender queer sentient street that's the home of queer people, unwanted by the rest of the world. You should watch Doom Patrol. You should too. And also you. Oh and Margot Robbie is fighting like crazy to get an Poison Ivy/Harley Quinn movie made.
The arrowverse has so many flaws, but it’s way, WAY more diverse than the MCU and deserves a TON of credit for beginning a normalization of superheroes from backgrounds not usually represented in mainstream media.
DC and WB aren't your friends any more than Disney is.
@@adammyers7383 i mean mcu now has eternals. possibly the most diverse superhero team.
@@indigohalf I don't mean to imply anything other than the fact that they don't queerbait like Disney does. They actually give representation to LGBT people, and their programs deserve credit for that shit.
💅
Torchwood’s level of explicit representation is why most other shows disappointment me. It set the bar for my expectations very high.
Captain Jack is one of the greatest characters of all time
How can you not love a character whose pick up line is to introduce himself
😂😂
That's so true😂
FR, him just saying his name makes you swoon, such an icon
As a bi ace person I love how you describe the reaffirming behaviours aspect of monosexuality... not only is it hard to prove your sexuality to the world, but even proving it to yourself can be tough.
I'm also bi/ace and I feel this
"im attracted to this character/person maybe I'm not ace?"
"oh thats a cute girl guess I dont like dudes"
"lately ive been liking more guys can i really say im bi?"
Its tiring proving the same point to yourself and others
@@Xx_Oleander_xX I asked myself the same question recently
THIS -- and since I'm married to an ace woman I'm constantly like "am I just a lesbian" or "we haven't been intimate in a while, maybe I'm lying to myself about being queer?" ... adding asexuality into it is extra hard since you can't really prove or re-assert a negative unless someone is trying to cross your boundaries, which is worse.
@@Xx_Oleander_xX Oh my god, this has been my exact thought process recently. Just a never-ending cycle of re-questioning my identity even though I keep coming to the same conclusion. My brain never learns smh. But coming across other bi aces helps :)
@@lauren3054 It does! I didnt know it was (sadly) normal to do this till I seen how many ppl in the same boat did this. for me simply knowing others go thru the same stuff helped me a lot
That Loki bit made me feel like I was a bit crazy. Like I don't need Loki to go around making out with men (not like Disney would ever do that anyway but still) but with Loki's personality it wouldn't be strange for him to be a flirt or to like overtly check people out. Seeing it made me a bit happy but like seeing him immediately get with his female clone felt like a strong "no homo though". Like I didn't feel romantic chemistry between them so the only reason I can think of for their relationship is to straight wash Loki. Everyone seeing it like an amazing declaration was so strange to me. I felt like I was being too judgemental or entitled for wanting something that mattered to his character. Like I was in a parallel universe or something.
This video made me realise that due to early 2005-2010 Doctor Who and Torchwood being the first tv show I really got into, which spoke to me deeply as a teenager (everyone being special, having value, Rose being extremely normal), that it's been the standard I've subconsciously been expecting from then on. Nothing less than Jack Harkness levels of not caring about gender and sexuality is accurate for Loki imo. Just completely unabashed flirting with whoever he fancies. It doesn't have to be with everyone, just the impression that it COULD be anyone. I completely agree with your angle. It felt deeply straight washed.
I completely agree! Disney cares way too much about not upsetting the conservative straight audience that they didn’t even have the guts to have Loki flirt with a guy. And his romance with Sylvie felt super forced and out of nowhere, I was so disappointed when the show started taking their relationship in that direction... it absolutely was Disney’s attempt to “no homo” the situation 🙄
I mean he could express bisexual thoughts, he could look in bisexual ways at people, he could havve issues like the bisexual such as the bi-cycle lol or how he might feel expluded from cultures he has one foot in while having one foot in another and still being sort of questioned and insecure in both or anything like that. There are so many things to talk about and explore but nope, they did not.
"straight wash" 💀
@@blue1584 What, because the show needs to affirm Loki's bisexuality?
I bet no major adaptation is going to go as far with Loki's sexuality and gender expression as the original stories do... morphing into a mare to seduce a stallion, getting pregnant, giving birth to Sleipnir
Yes! I was thinking the exact same thing!
Yet the first Thor movie does include a shot of Odin riding Sleipnir.
@@Rosie-jn4qr Yet, we never are told that the horse is Sleipnir (it's a 2 second shot where you can see the legs, if you don' t know the original story, you don't catch that) and we are DEFFENITLY NOT told that the horse popped out of Loki.
this is the representation us queers deserve asjhdaksdhaskdh
honestly the thing that most annoyed me about the Loki show was that Sylvie was just born a girl, and the reason for her variance was completely different, when from the moment I saw her, heard her state a new preferred name, and saw Loki’s profile state a fluid sex, I instantly thought she could be a perfect opportunity for trans representation. I never expected Disney to do something like that, of course, but the fact it was that close made it all the more tiring when the show only went down the symbolic route.
Honestly my biggest disappointment from the show. Meeting her could have made him realize something about himself and fit the themes of changing vs fixed identity in the show. But no, she was just always a girl.
Yeah, honestly the whole "sacred timeline" but all the loki varients were fine until the point of divergence but they WEREN'T all just gender- and species-fluid? That doesn't even make logical sense. If they're not fluid inherently then how can they be born different from each other but not a variant until they make the official wrong decision?
Fanfic writers do it SO much better (one of my favorites is a frostiron (Tony Stark/Loki) fic in which Loki occasionally just likes being a snake, and Tony builds him a terrarium and when Loki asks him about it, if he's planning to get a reptile or something, and he just says "well, I have a boyfriend who sometimes likes to be a snake" and Loki was blown away by the acceptance because everyone else in his life had just assumed when he was a snake it was because he was plotting mischief instead of recognizing that sometimes he just liked to be a snake)
@@tabithahiggins5075 *screechy pterodactyl noises*
NAME! PLEASE! I _NEED_ THE NAME OF THAT FIC!
Omg, that sounds like such a cute scene 😍🤩
@@willowtabby4926
It's "Blame It on the Bard (Who is Obviously Tony Stark)", by FluffyHippogriff, and the scene in question is in chapter 35 (but seriously - if you're remotely interested in Dungeons and Dragons, you should just read the whole fic, it's delightful).
Because she was playing with valkyrie figures when she was taken away, I've seen people suggest that her deviation was deciding to join them, which would put her on a very un-Loki path.
It was the line "have you ever seen a female Loki?" that got me. Like errr well you should have done, this should not be an out of the ordinary occurance here and the fact that you're treating Sylvie as such an anomaly really speaks to Loki's Genderfluidity.
Yes, if the Lokis are as simmular as they are portrait in the show almost all of the Lokis should have seen a female Loki before: Themselves. Even if none of them are genderfluid I don't get how beeing a woman is anything special, if there is a Loki that's a crocodile. All of them have the ability to shapeshift to a point, because they are frost giants that only look like Asgardians to blend in.
Exactly, they couldn’t have fucked up Loki’s genderfluidity more than they have with that show.
Worse, Sylvie acts more like a genderbent /Thor/ than a Lady Loki. It honestly felt more like an uncomfortable nod to one weird ‘ship than the one they advertised (1ncest rather than selfcest).
@@vysharra its worst because people shipped thor and loki before
@@poccripeardew4750 I know. I said that.
Captain Jack is literally why I'm gay. First it was "well if the Doctor doesn't have a problem with it why should I?" then it was"I wish I could be attracted to my own gender," and eventually "wait a second..."
I just wanted to say this really resonated with me. I remember my first crush on a girl being very intentional and I often thought me thinking about it intellectually made it less real than my attraction to boys which came before and more instinctively. Rather than your "I wish this was the case" my thought was "What if this was the case?". But anyway thanks for sharing your experience, it was very nice to read that ❤😊
@@B1gLupuYou could give asexuality a go. In my experience the opposite sex tends to be much less frustrating when you're not trying to get in their pants.
@@B1gLupuif you think women are a hassle maybe there's some other problem there and not your sexuality.
When you said "why bother identifying with your bisexuality when.... does it even matter?" I teared up a little bit, because this is what I told myself for YEARS. Over a decade, even. I haltingly identified as bisexual as a teenager, then dated only boys (I'm afab), then married a man, then just dropped the issue. I would have bouts of "wait am I bisexual?" before I dismissed it, saying "well I'm monogamously married to a man so I guess it doesn't really matter." It took years and constantly nagging my other queer friends before I felt comfortable identifying as bisexual, because even if nothing in my behavior changes, it changes the relationship I have with myself and the community. And being the only "straight" person in the room... felt that. It felt weird and "pointless" to come out, because the people that mattered to me basically knew and the people who would question me probably wouldn't even acknowledge it because I "pass" as straight. But I feared coming out, feared being told I don't count from fellow queers and from straights, and I still have bouts of self doubt that I'm a "no star" bi. But slowly I'm learning to be more open and comfortable with myself, and to use the word. People should be allowed to call themselves bisexual, should be safe to call themselves bisexual, if that's what makes them happy. So I am. I'm bisexual! I'll validate myself if no one else will.
Heck, your bi!
This is exactly how I feel! I feel like most of my attractions are straight but calling myself straight feels strange in a way. Like I know I've had that bisexual experience but I lean so far towards one way I'm almost afraid I just want to label myself other than straight
boo hoo, what a first world problem. you know gay people are sometimes MURDERED for being gay right? but it's soooo sad that you feel bullied by words. grow up and stop calling gay people "queer"
So I just wanted to share a few times I felt extremely validated as a bisexual person.
1. When my close friend came out to me and we just chatted for an hour or so about our experiences
2. My ace friend choosing me to be their first kiss bc they wondered what kissing would feel like and felt like I was the right person and wont make it awkward for them
3. Every time I'm cuddling with my friends and being affectionate with them. Maybe bc I've always been pretty self conscious among other straight women and had to make sure I didn't come off as threatening
4. Every time someone trust me enough to ask for advice regarding sexuality or gender expression
5. Getting recognized as queer by other queer people in public
when I came out to two queer friends at pride one was like „yeah, you do have a bi vibe“ and the other was just like „wait that wasn‘t public knowledge?? I guess I just always assumed lol“
that was just so validating after years of questioning whether I was _really_ bi
You are a way more dignified person than I am. Most of my self-validation stories can mostly be summed up as: Went out, got drunk (or ingested psychedelic substances), had a threesome or a foursome.
Meanwhile for me it's when my friend sends me TikTok edits of both my favorite male and female KPop idols 😭💀
omg same with the last one, having people recognise my queerness in public is so validating, especially when i dont wear a “queer outfit” theyre still like “i know what you are”.
those little glances and the smile of acknowledgment will always be so special to me and i try to do it to people so they feel seen too!
I'll add mine and say,
a) when when of the few coworkers I'm out with says "do you think so-and-so is hot? because I do and I think they're your type."
b) when someone sees my little flag pin on my backpack and gives me the little "I see you" nod in an elevator or similar
c) when another coworker saw said flag pin, came out as nonbinary and ace, and asked if I wanted to be on the employee advisory LGBTQ council, because they needed bi/pan voices on it as well
Capt. Jack Harkness: "You people and your quaint little categories"
Absolutely.
"No ones referring to Kirk as a Queer Icon" Um the women who forged modern fanfiction through writing Spirk/the gays who like star trek would beg to differ
Also, has she never seen the opening scene of Star Trek V?
hahahahahahahaha THIS! All of this. Spirk. Saved. Star. Trek. Although it's not really representation when it's only in fan fiction and the writers and executives aggressively keep it out of the canon.
Yep, that’s exactly where my mind went too!
@@QuintessentialQs wht? WHAT?! I just saw a clip from the opening and now i'm obsessed. i have to watch that movie!
@@turtleandbear1179 It's one of the bad Star Treks, unfortunately. It's kind of entertaining in places (both intentionally and unintentionally), absoultely tedious in others. William Shatner is a bad director, ultimately. But after Leonard Nimoy's rather popular turns in the director's chair, I guess Shatner just really felt like he had to prove himself. He did not. Still, worth a watch for a hardcore trekkie, but less so for a more casual fan.
Those comments about RTD at the beginning HURT MY HEART. As someone who loves the full body of RTD’s work - QAF, Bob & Rose, Doctor Who, Torchwood, and especially It’s a Sin, it pains me to know there are people out there who don’t know how inclusive his work is, and how much his work has helped push TV forward. On the other hand, I’m very glad I found your work through this video! Thank you 😊
As a trans woman who is mostly gay, I identify with Bob. Every once in awhile I find a man I'm attached to... One I'd give my all for.
Doesn't change that I'm, mostly, a trans lesbian.
But human sexuality isn't black and white. It's a spectrum. I'm totally on it, as everyone is.
Cheers!
I think the idea that a gay person being attracted to one or even a few people of another gender NEEDING to change their concept of themself or how they’re “allowed” to identify is so restrictive. The point of such labels when it comes to individuals and their experiences should be what is most useful, comfortable, and authentic for them at any time. A label should function as a way to express yourself in the way that fits best for you, not as a way of communicating every single experience you’ve ever had or not had for the judgment of others.
Yeah I think you've really solidly summarised my own experience there too, transbianism and all.
I LOVE describing it as a spectrum. I've said for years that I'm pansexual mainly because even within the community, saying bi still has the connotation (with some people) of being attracted to EITHER a man or a woman. I'm not attracted to the gender, I'm attracted to PEOPLE, and they can be whatever they choose to be, and it's not attracted to men on odd numbered days and women on even numbered days, or some of the ridiculous BS I've seen other folks talk about. There's also people I am completely in love with and have almost no sexual attraction to them.
The first gay/queer kiss I remember seeing (and having a visceral reaction to) was Jack kissing a soldier the night before he was going to be shipped out and subsequently killed (time travel stuff) and the show gave these two men the iconic 360 camera pan around them as they kissed and the music swelled and I had NEVER seen a non-straight couple get that treatment before! (And sadly not really since) I was in my teens and it SHOOK me. It was then that I thought my stomach was flipping bc it didn’t like what it just witnessed but it would take another 15 years for me to realize that wasn’t the case. It was because I was seeing myself represented on TV for all the world to see. Although I haven’t seen anything else from the Torchwood series, that episode, that final scene has stayed with me all these years. 💛
God, same. I wasn't aware of my sexuality back then. Now I'm mostly attracted to women and I know that it made me so happy because I felt kinship. It was and still is an astonishingly beautiful scene
god that scene was so beautiful
Oh the rest of the show is worth watching too. The first season is a little shaky and that episode is the strongest of the season but the season 2 finale and children of earth are 2 of the best pieces of tv in the doctor who universe imo
Ianto Jones is the best character in the series hands down though, the way you see him struggle with his feelings for jack and the way their relationship develops and then the events of children of the earth just, ugh
I'm weird so sexuality of characters never felt like a big deal to me as a kid. No ew or yay or anything really. Despite growing up in a time where gay itself was a slur, it just felt normal. I guess it's no surprise that I figured out I was pansexual so easily once I started to feel sexuality at all (Occasional asexual OCD aside).
SO F*CKING VALID!
Just thought y’all should know that Ianto’s shrine is still up in Cardiff Bay in 2023.
I once had a (very short term) girlfriend who broke up with me when I told her I was bi (“I don’t think it would be good for us”) I told her she should tell other people that’s the reason why. To my shock, _she actually did_- and I kind of get a kick out of the thought of her openly offering that as the reason to them.
I think about that a lot though. I wasn’t hiding it, she just never asked. It’s a fact of my life, like my eye color or my height. Nothing about me had changed, she just learned that I sometimes find men attractive and that was too much for her.
In her case I don’t even think it was some biphobic idea- I think it was plain homophobia.
It’s a weird thought that she couldn’t even discriminate against me properly.
Imagine how bad almost everyone reacts to me being able to frequently find men attractive, as an asexual lesbian. It would always be amusing if it wasn't a little bit sad each time
Jeez, this whole thing about the lack of bisexual communities is so true and, well, I just really wish the worst biphobia I've suffered came from LGBT people. Like, having to hear from a lesbian that "I gotta taste to see whether I really like it" is so disconcerting, it hurts every time.
And that's why I wanna make it clear that I'm bisexual, that's why it is important to me to say that "no, I am not gay", because I have to say (and sometimes quite literally teach) that it is 100% possible for a man to find other men attractive while in a relationship with a woman, GODDAMMIT!
(Also thank you so much for introducing me to Bob & Rose, I've been looking for content that spoke to me to the heart, as someone who initially thought of myself as gay and then discovered I was bi)
But when I ID as bi, suddenly I'm "centering my attraction to men" ... because marrying a woman doesn't mean anything if you even have the *possibility* of liking men. UGH. Gatekeeping LGBTQ people are really annoying.
In the eyes of many straight people (and some bi people as well), there is the idea of bi men being at least "half normal". I overheard a bi man saying," I am NOT gay!" but he said it in a way that I have heard straight men talk about gays so it goes both ways. I am a bisexual gay which means I am attracted to both sexes but I only am interested in having romantic relationships with men. Gays and bi men have to stop this belief that they are in conflict. It is the straight side of society that wants us both in the closet but for bi men , they have the choice of finding a woman if the closet closes behind us.
@@jonhinson5701 I agree that we should stop the internal conflicts and instead focus on societal changes but it is still necessary to point out when you are mistreated. Negating someone's experience does not help the conflict go away. And to be honest I find your last sentiment condescending, it is something bisexual people often hear. Basically it means "well, you could just pass straight, so you don't deserve the same part in the queer community"
But nobody chooses who they fall in love with. This is the biphobia, they were talking about. And please don't take this the wrong way. I am certain you only have the best intentions. However I ask you to reflect on what you said and meant.
I'm monogamously bisexual and have heard that same line from straight male partners trying to pressure me into threesomes. So frustrating. In both cases it is someone trying to pressure you into sex by weaponizing your sexuality, which is never okay.
I hate people who say you have to try something to know whether you like it or not. I've literally known I was Asexual for as long as I can remember (about age 3 when I discovered where babies came from via mom telling me cause I was about to have a sister be born) and did not have to be into sexual things to know I just didn't find interest in it. Even through growing up, dating a few people, and even being married to my husband who is also Ace, I still have almost no interest in sex. You know yourself the best and anyone who tries to tell you how to feel is an ignoranus.
I had no idea I was bi until a couple of years ago, but Russell T's Doctor Who was incredibly important to me as a teenager, and hearing your analysis made me fall in love with it all over again. Thank you for your amazing work.
I think this is why I'm so nervous about the upcoming Dr Who series as it is funded strongly by Disney. I think it will be interesting what RTD can get into it. So far I have hope.
One big issue is that so many of us are so STARVED for representation that we pounce ALL over tiny representation and that media knows we will, so they keep giving the smallest amount of rep they can
yeah, and when people complain at our headcanons it feels like we’re not allowed anything, not even the crumbs we find outselves.
I understand that sometimes people just wanna identify the way they want to, but I can't help but think how much of it might come from the fact that bisexual is seen as such a dirty word that so few people that identified as gay or straight want to get near the word. I wonder if we truly destigmatized being bisexual, how many flexible people, would be identifying as actually bi, because fundamentally that's what it means. Idk. It just feels sad.
This is so true
@@princessjellyfish98 YES!! that is exactly why i feel so weird about the labels "homo or heteroflexible" like, it's okay. you CAN be bi! i feel so bad for people who constantly have to reinstate their monosexuality and feel like they need to fit in this one box that they created for themselves. this is why i feel more comfortable with the bisexual label because it just allows more freedom and i don't feel like i have to repress any of my attractions just to fit in a mold. i like who i like and that's me.
@@skrunklington Idk, I don't think everyone identifying as flexible is struggling with internalized biphobia. I had a heteroflexible friend who had tried out many labels but that's what he felt most comfortable with. He was predominately attracted to women and femininity and his attraction to men (usually fem ones) was... there, but pretty rare and felt more like an exception than anything. He knew he definitely wasn't straight - he was dating a guy at the time, but he also struggled to fit in in bi spaces and felt it was weird to call himself bi when his queer attractions were once-a-hundred-years thing. It's not like he *couldn't* identify as bi, and he didn't mind being called bisexual either, but he didn't find a relatable community nor a good self-description that way (and he did find both with "heteroflexible"), which imo that's the main goal of labels. Honestly, I think we can separate shitty media representation from individuals just liking a word more. Like, personally, as a bi person, I get annoyed when people encourage me to id as pan or omni or drop labels altogether, not because I dislike those things or because they're inaccurate, but because I already have a word for myself I'm comfortable with and I chose it *for a reson* those strangers have no insight into
@@franzparo9022 I think there's a weird misconception that to be bi is to be equally attracted to men and women. Most bi people I know have preferences, even if they aren't strong ones.
@@jospinner1183 I don't think any bi people are less valid, no matter how strong their preferences are. But it's also true that some people with *very* strong preferences feel alienated or not properly represented with the label and communities around it and that it goes beyond their personal view of bisexuality.
While not a case in my example, there's also an important point about already having a community or a strong attachment to another label. I'm not sure it's fair to chalk up to biphobia only that some people feel reluctant to change a label (and subsequently have to leave a community) due to 1-2 experinces that might've been a lot less formative than their dominant ones
Genuinely forgot there was a scene in Loki where they actually confirmed his sexuality and I'm fucking bi. You can be distracted for just those five seconds and have no idea that was part of his character
It's very weird to me (who was 13 when Davies brought back Doctor Who) to think of Torchwood as game-changing. For me, it was one of the shows that defined what adult TV was. The idea of everyone hooking up with everyone was just normal. What sticks with me as shocking about Torchwood is the cannibalism episode, is just how evil ordinary people can be.
A lot of what you were saying around monosexuality really resonates for me as an a-spec person. I regularly struggle with the lack of affirming action (after all, being single doesn't really say anything about one's sexuality) and the question of "what does it matter if people know how I label myself?".
Yeah Countrycide was such a (if not the most) scary episode for me when I first watched Torchwood.
when Loki was first announced, my bisexual heart did a jump kick. i was so excited. rumors were flying they were going to portray Loki comics-accurate. i was wary, because Marvel has been irrevocably Disnified. but Kate said it, out loud, and i dared to hope.... i should have known better. they made a fool of me, and did a total disservice to my favorite queer marvel character. i'm still salty about it.
Loki in the mythology turned into a mare and made sleipnir with a Stallion
I don’t want Puritan lgbtq+ characters who can do no wrong and do not a single problematic thing in their lives and has a normal accepting perfect happy life forever. That sounds boring and dishonest. I want complex stories of lgbtq+ characters, yes, even if sometimes they die. If it’s donde with honesty and good writing, you can write tragedies too. I personally prefer a mix and that you still get a hopeful story because this world is bleak and violent and sad already. But leaving out all suffering of marginalized groups because it might come across as problematic closes the doors on important discussions and stories. I want good stories.
So I hope they make Loki transform into a female version in season 2 and also leave all ambiguity of his relationship and feeling towards Mobius out of the question, and if there’s going to be more seasons I really hope they make their romantic relationship cannon. But I know they won’t do it.
Unfortunately the thing is that they have to have Tom Hiddleston on screen at all time or the straight women will riot. So it’s unlikely that main Loki will change his form
Yes! I think there's a weird tendency online, with the rise of discussion about the "bury your gays" trope, to decide that every single instance of non-straight people dying in media is harmful representation. But the point of "bury your gays" isn't that a gay person dies, but that there is incredibly limited LGBT rep (often only one character), and what little rep is present isn't ever allowed to enjoy a happy existence - they must be tormented by a tragic backstory and an equally tragic death, typically used as a plot device to make The Real Main Characters (tm) very sad, similar to the fridging women trope. I absolutely agree that LGBT characters in media deserve to be represented complexly, heroically and villainously, and to experience tragedy and loss and yes, even death. The only time I take issue with the concept is when a character seems to achieve their unhappy ending exclusively because they are LGBT when straight characters go on to live long and happy lives (and even this has its exceptions, usually if the story is explicitly reckoning with this idea), or if they are literally the only LGBT character in their piece of media (or worse, franchise). Other than that, I'll take a messy, real portrayal over Loki's throwaway line representation any day.
@@voidify3 i've straight up had a similar convo with a classmate of mine, who's a loki fan, where i said that they need and should show Loki as fem presenting but she said that no they didn't need to.........like.....it isn't about you?? they're not gonna kill tom, calm down LMAO
@@Carolina57685 ewww
@@voidify3 we've dealt with cis men playing women before - I'm pretty sure Tom Hiddlestone would still look just as hot in a dress/overly revealing armour 😊 (I agree it's not the best way they'd represent Loki's character or abilities but they could certainly use any lack of 'passing' to make trans positive readings obvious)
"Only understood by compulsively online bisexuals"
It me
I work as a librarian and I get a lot of 'your sexuality is valid' at my work, but I have such a hard time trying to encourage us to get some LGBTQ+ books. I have finally worn them down enough, but it is really frustrating as they don't want to celebrate diversity (yet they still had the gall to say that it was due to their efforts that we finally got some in), despite our customers requesting these types of books. We work with schools and, my managers don't understand why kids might need LGTBQ+ books. A crazy thought, but maybe they are bloody LGBTQ+ and having this could help them to accept themselves?
this is an older comment, but I just want you to know that you are doing great work. there are a lot of kids out there who need people like you looking out for them.
Just putting it out there that the mere influence of Captain Jack watching Dr Who when I was younger is a huge part of the reason I was ever able to come to terms with the fact that I'm Bi. Not in the "he's so hot he made me realize" kinda way, but in the fact that it was so normalized, I felt no pressure against exploring these ideas and coming to terms with it all. Thats fucking representation, and why its so important
Powerful ✌️
Cis woman here with Cis male partner. Had a gay coworker tell me "It's so great that you use the term partner, that's it's not just for us (meaning gays)" I replied "But I'm not straight" He got so flustered that he left the space. It was one of the strangest interactions! It was like 12 years ago. Thank you for this look back on Davies work. I, without access to BBC and such didn't even know Queer as Folk (and the American one blew my mind)was an UK show first and all this other stuff he had done before NuWho. There's so much more representation in TV for bi's and I am kinda sad that folks cheered for Loki when it was so lack luster it may as well not even be there at all but I didn't understand why I felt that way until you laid it out. Having come out in the 90s, it's been a strange trip watching our representation evolve in all these sometimes wonderful and amazing ways. We don't need Disney to tell us we are valid, for sure.
Queer as Folk isn't to do with the BBC, it is a Channel 4 show! The BBC wouldn't have aired anything like that in 1999 haha
@@benjiappleton Slip of the tongue! The video even mentioned that and sometimes my brain is like "hur dur brits only have one channel"
What's interesting to me is that Disney has an overtly bisexual protagonist, Luz from The Owl House, that show even has a non binary recurring character, but no one seems to know about it, and it's final season is getting shortened
@@MakiPcr Agreed. That is interesting! Wonder if it's because it is a series vs movie. Loki the show is a series but the character came from the movies and I wonder if that's why the queernes of the character is so minimal? Didn't want to scare the movie fans? It's early and I might be reading too much into thing.
@@ceruleanskies001 I think there's definitely something, my theory is that movies get more attention than cartoons so they fly under the radar
Never forget that Disney cancelled the owl house early which was the first Disney cartoon and possibly show in general by them which had an openly lgbtq lead where her sexuality and relationship with Amity wasn't overplayed but these people just existed within the world. Also one of the first openly non-binary characters I've ever seen. Awesome show with awesome representation.
I think the reaction to RTD's comments perfectly encapsulates what respectability politics is. His queer characters are REAL. They're imperfect and human. They apply their labels in a way that works for them. They're not the perfect, scrubbed clean paragons of propreity that we get from the media giants. They're not human in name alone, they're human in their actions and interactions with the world.
His work is so organic.
Xiran Ray Zhao put it well when they said that if "they're looking for chinese representation, [they]'ll look for it in chinese media." I don't care about disney's representation of bisexuals because it will always be inorganic and fake. It's their brand. I would rather listen to queer creators, bisexual or not, talking about their experiences or the experiences of others with bisexuality. The conversation on representation will never move forward while people look for it in western children's media produced by conglomerates.
For more context, RTD almost died from an overdose as a younger man. This might inform his characters having a lust for life and risk.
God the bit about not having access to in person bi community speaks a lot to me. It honestly wasn't an option to me at all as a kid in high school. There was an all lesbian (and one bi girl) GSA headed by an openly lesbian teacher. I had loved that group dearly until I learned that my friends (not the teacher) were biphobes; a fact I'd not known for several years due to never talking about my interest in men there due to not really seeing the point in it. Due to that and a lesbian mailing group dedicated to manga that had the occasional bi person in it, lesbian culture and lesbian spaces were a very important part of my queer existence.
They still are with my lesbian girlfriend and friends. I'm butch and when people aren't being shitty to me, I feel most comfortable and like me in lesbian spaces. Though it took me years and multiple friends helping me to get to that realization. As before I was just very terrified due to poor experiences I'd had earlier.
The few times in my life where I've had the chance to be in spaces designated for bisexuals in specific were at camps in groups. Extremely fleeting and temporary moments that I didn't even go to because I was more interested in other groups going on at the same times.
I've been in bisexual dominant friend groups, both online and irl, before. Which are nice. I'm fond of those and grateful to have them. But it's not quite "home" in the sense that the kinds of spaces I grew up in are. Which is weird and sometimes we feel like we're somehow failing at being bi because we're a butch who is primarily into women and who likes existing in spaces of just women who are into other women.
Which I guess leads one to wonder why it's even important that I'm bi and that people know that I am and it's just that. Even when I haven't been dating men, it just feels bad to not have people know. I don't ever want to have an experience again where people I respect and trust turn out to actually hate people like me. They and I just didn't know it due to my never bringing it up and my passing for gay. I want to have my words and spaces and things I was taught and that I grew up in. I just don't want to be treated like shit.
"it just feels bad to not have people know" God, that hit me. Like, this identity is a part of myself. I don't want to be perceived as a lesbian any more than I want to be perceived as straight - not because either are bad, but because it's just not who I am, and I want anyone who forms a genuine relationship with me (romantic or platonic) to know that about me and to respect it
💜
Wow, I hard-core relate to feeling most comfortable in lesbian spaces, but also dealing with gatekeeping and biphobia. It's super confusing because I married a woman and don't correct people who say "lesbian" because they're not really wrong, but I'm frequently disappointed when it comes up and they're biphobes
verily's "you're so fucking valid" ASMR omfggggg
All bread tube seems to like doing ASMR 😳
actually hot like?
@@DustyMusician Yes totally. It hit me like a very whispery sledge hammer. ASMR does not normally do that to me. XD
"Donna is effectively dead"
60th anniversary: Hello there!
Torchwood was so special to me. Sure, I'm a bit traumatized by Children of Earth for a lot of reasons and Miracle Day had a different feel overall. But I still love it in general. I met John Barrowman at a convention one time. During the paid photo shoot portion he had so much energy; hugging everyone, posing, engaging with every single fan. Afterwards I got in line at his booth to get an autograph. By this point we are near the end of the day and I'm at the end of the queue. I get up to the table and John is just dead exhausted. His flamboyance has no filter and he is being a ham (he said his gaysian was taking him to dinner, as said queer Asian woman walked past behind the table and seemed to be slightly exasperated with John, either his exhaustion or his puns). I ask him to sign the Jack Harkness picture "Ianto Lives!" (And yes, I did create an entire AU and a Canadian Torchwood unit in order to be able to sleep the night he died, thank you very much). Under that he went "REALLY???!" He asked if I had listened to the audio drama where Ianto comes back, essentially as a ghost in this odd phenomenon, and they are given the opportunity to actually say their "I love yous". I said, "Yes! And it broke my heart!" And he gets this cheeky little impish expression on his face and says that he and Gareth had so much trouble recording that drama because they kept _laughing_ because they knew how much it was going to destroy us. Ffffff. I will never forget that experience. I think, seeing John so animated, so happy, being adored by all these people that were there because of this amazing queer icon he was able to embody will be something I will remember forever. It was one of the best experiences of my life, on this emotional, soul-deep level.
6:40 I do love a supportive Harriet Jones former prime minister
Yes, we know who she is
YES!
@@glowstoneunknown 😭😭😂😂
It’s true Disney is not your friend when it comes to LGBT representation…but The Owl House is a fantastic anomaly. The main character, Luz, is a bisexual Latinx disabled (ADHD) girl with a confirmed lesbian girlfriend, Amity, who’s one of the main characters, and her mentor is in a relationship with a non-binary witch, and it is glorious.
Unfortunately after Lumity was publicly made canon, Disney reneged on making a proper third season like the creator, Dana Terrace, intended, so now they’re only giving her three 45-minute specials to wrap up this complex magical story. So yeah, Disney, time to step up your game.
YES the owl house is amazing for that.
Bisexual latinx ADHD girl? Wow that's literally me and I've never seen that on TV lol. I'll give the show a go
I like the show - really like it - but it's following in the footsteps of Steven universe and she ra which really pushed the envelope. The lesbian romance & minor enby character feel almost tame after that, even if it's a big step for Disney.
@@IIxIxIv its a wlw romance, luz is not a lesbian. and i mean, raine is a new character, so we dont rly know how prevalent they'll be in the show in the upcoming episodes. its kinda weird to weigh a show by the numerical amount of rep. it has a neurodivergent gnc bisexual girl of color as the main character, thats a huge huge deal, and not even something SU or She-Ra did. as a trans bi guy, i think we should encourage other kinds of rep without putting down the rep that is there. we should not put down a bi woman for wanting to put rep where she wants. let queer ppl write whatever kind of queerness they want to see in their creations.
@@jeremywaygay my point isn't that the show isn't good or the representation isn't good, it's just that it's relatively safe. There's nothing wrong with that, but within the context of other recent cartoons it's not as revolutionary as some people make it out to be (and again, this is fine, I love the show, but we have so far no canon statement of Luz' bi-ness or ADHD). It's only really pushing Disney after other shows made it clear that this was viable.
As a questioning woman in a heterosexual relationship - the loki reveal fully went over my head, I in no way processed that as coming out. i went on twitter after watching the episode & saw people talk about "LOKI OFFICIALLY BI" and was left wondering whether I watched the same show. It was just a sentence & if you didn't pay attention to it or weren't looking for it, you are likely to have missed it.. That doesn't feel like representation.
yeah its not; unfortunately common in media--queerphobic/transphobic capitalism is at it again
Maaaann i binged all of torchwood during a self-destructive rampage of a year in my life and it left me having watched all of it and only really being able to remember the vibes and the fact that every character ended up bisexual 😭😭 im honestly so glad to hear someone else talk about it if only to cement that it was not a crack pot fever dream i made up
Jack gave me the word “bisexual” after becoming a doctor who fan in my first year at uni and doing googling. I will be forever grateful for him.
Edit: I will also forever be grateful to you. As a (closeted) bisexual genderqueer myself, your videos are all so amazing. They’re thoughtful and clearly well researched (which as a failed academic means a lot to me-god why can’t I quit Theory), and only accessible to me because they’re free. Capitalism is broken, but at least for me, your “content” shines through the cracks.
I hope you read this.
If you want free academic stuff: libgen and sci hub (but you didn't hear it from me)
Ah man the middle bit of this video gave me all the feels. The bit about bisexuals not really being able to affirm their sexuality directly the same way as monosexuals unless we're in a threesome, and the question about the point in coming out at all, really hit hard. I've been in a monogamous relationship for a long time, and for a lot of it I've felt guilty about identifying as bi because when you're out as bi while monogamous, you kind of declare your attraction to people who are not your partner to be part of your identity, in a way that you don't if you come out as gay or lesbian. I've felt so ashamed that I've tried to suppress my feelings towards women, and then I did such a good job of that, that I started wondering if I was straight instead of bi, and felt so guilty when I was in LGBT only spaces, like I was lying to everybody and shouldn't be there.
And that bit about bi culture was so real. I get that people like memes about cuffed jeans and finger guns. But they feel so hollow to me when compared to the rich history of gay and lesbian culture. Their clubs and bars, their music and icons, even their intracommunity dynamics like butches/femmes and bears/twinks, being a top/bottom/vers, being a pillow princess or a stone butch. Yeah, this video hit hard for me. I suppose at least now watching you express this stuff, I feel like maybe all these emotions that make me wonder if I'm straight are actually bi af. Thanks.
Disclaimer for commenters: I'm aware that there has been dispute over the sexuality of many g/l icons and whether they were actually bi. I know that a lot of bi people identify with labels like top/bottom/butch/femme, but I feel like these labels have their roots in g/l communities and we often use them specifically in the context of interacting with said communities. There have even been debates on blue hellsites about whether bi women can use the terms butch/femme. The point stands that for me none of it feels like it's OURS.
I felt this so bad
Thank you for putting into words what I’ve felt. Wondering if you’re really just straight because you’re attracted to the opposite gender and then confirming you’re bi by being attracted to someone of the same gender is definitely bi af haha
I get your comment and i agree but words Like Butch and femme are terms that are also coined by bisexuals. We have always been part of the community and are a part of queer history. When we say that it feels like g/l history feels so much richer we are ignoring that fact that bisexual people were part of that same history. This js also our history and i'm frankly so upset that we are made to feel so alienated by the Community that we are robbing ourselfs of our own history and culture as Well. It's Just sad
As a bi woman this i found this so relatable. Thank you for sharing it
I feel like a lot of these terms and this culture WAS ours, too, but in recent decades biphobia's iced us out of these spaces and our own culture.
Late to the video but I loved it. It’s quite sad in a way that so many LGBTQ+ teens rushed to Disney’s defence because they felt grateful for three words, at the expense of Davis who has been championing representation and authentic queer stories for decades.
"Those are completely different things with completely different merchandise" As a bi man who's always found the splitting hairs really hard to relate to this really spoke to my soul
I'm still angry at the romance storyline in Loki... 1. Möbius was right there and 2. An alternate version of himself? Really? My boy gets one romance across the mcu and that's it? Also 3. They had such lovely found family vibes for a while I just wanted them to be friends/siblings
If they had made Loki and Sylvie have a sibling relationship it would have been SO much better omg. And also all that chemistry with Mobius gone to waste whyyyy
Frankly she should have been the literal Sylvie Lushton, not the gross mess Waldron and Martin made of her. And I say that as someone fully aware of what a pointless, irritating character she was in print.
It still would have been better than what they did.
But mobius fucking sucks
As a bisexual in a longterm monogamous relationship with a member of the opposite gender for long enough that I now know people for years who I didn't know when I came out, who have only ever known me in this straight appearing relationship. People I'm incredibly close with who don't know I'm also attracted to men, and I wonder if it's even worth letting them know. At this point, it feels like trivia, but at the same time, is this incredibly important part of who I am. I both want people to know this important fact, and can't be moved to tell them, because it feels completely unimportant. It isn't like being back in the closet, it's not teary eyed telling my best friend at 2:00 AM because I need to tell someone or I'll explode, it's 2:00 PM and someone made a straight people are so weird joke in my direction at lunch, and do I just drop "Oh, no thanks, I'm not straight" like I'm sending an entree back.
That last part made me laugh. I'm sorry you're not seen as what you are. I hope you can find other bi people in your daily life.
I resonate VERY much with this comment, oh lord.
Holy shit this made me realise just how much Jack formed my young views on sexuality. The gay agenda got me
"Donna is effectively dead." 2023 calling: NOT ANYMORE ❤
Aside from: "because I am bi, and I am generally safe enough to be able to say so, and try to normalize the sexuality, for those who are less safe to do so". I have a history of romantic/intimate/partnership relationships with people of multiple genders. And because I am polyamorous. Which, is basically my smack down response when confused people refused to wrap their head around the concept of bisexuality. Except it's a rather unwieldy response, since people who would like to debate my sexuality, are hardly likely to accept ethical non-monogamy as a valid and healthy relationship style.
I feel like a baby-polyam
same i too am the bi poly and it feels oddly safer to leverage my bisexuality lol
“Nobody’s referring to Kirk as a queer icon”
OBJECTION! have you ever seen amok time
right! I get what op means but he’s definitely bi lmfaoo.
@@midnightawakens994 yeah, like I get that it’s “subtext” and “denied by creative leads” and “not real representation” but the original slash fandom (which, fun fact, my high school English teacher Mrs Winlaw was a member of) is an important part of queer fandom history and they had a LOT to work with in the show and movies
The 1st act of Star Trek V basically confirms that Kirk has two husbands.
Hearing the history of the "everyone in this universe is bisexual" troupe was really facinating and I appreciate learning about it. I always felt uncomfortable with it because I was told that "all girls think they're bisexual" when I first came out, and it was confusing and hurtful and made me feel like my attraction to women was somehow fake. So not only did I have internalized homophobia, I convinced myself that I was only feeling that internalized homophobia because I was just looking for attention or confused.
And on that topic, that's part of why being out is so important to me. Because other people don't get to decide whether my feelings are real or not - I do. And talking about it in safe places makes me feel accepted and less broken. And being closeted... I know I'm not a lesbian or a gay man so I can't compare the experiences directly, but it hurts to hide part of who I am. I imagine it as being very much the same feeling. It would be a lie to call myself a lesbian, and it would be a lie to call myself straight, and I shouldn't have to do either.
This made me remember how much I loved Torchwood. We slept in that societally
Torchwood was GOATed
So I look at Disney coming out with the new "1st queer character" every year, and a memory came unbidden into my mind:
It's embarrassing to say that my first real understanding of homosexuality as a thing came with the "coming out" episode of Ellen's sitcom. That was a big thing. Then, either the next episode or the episode after that, there was a joke where Ellen comes out to a couple more of her friends, only for them to tell her that she had already come out to them, and she seems disappointed to be running out of people to come out to.
Yeah, take away the earnestness, and that's pretty much Disney. Good metaphor, random neurons firing in my brain!
First 2022 character: a piece of lint in my pocket
I didn't know anything about Russel T Davies' non-Doctor Who works and even still I laughed at the "make your own bisexual show"
But honestly? His shows sound fascinating. There really is something particularly "offensive" about raw, authentic queer experiences. It's one of the points of the lgbt+ community that we all have unique and individual experiences and when someone portrays one of them, it isn't going to apply to someone who identifies in a similar way. With the lack of queer presences in media, this can be terrifying: to see your identity portrayed and not relating to it or to relate to an identity but not be it.
Amen!
Jack "hi...Captain Jack Harkness"
Doctor, already annoyed "stop it"
Jack "what? I'm introducing myself"
Doctor "you're flirting."
what you said about affirming your identity being harder if you're bi than if you're straight or gay hit pretty hard for me as an aro ace person. I think part of the reason that its so hard to affirm my identity to other people but also to myself, is because there's nothing i can do to prove it, my identity is in my lack of action, and no one will ever be able to see that the same way someone can see that you have a same-gender partner.
So glad that someone else is talking about Bob & Rose in 2021... love that show!
Me too! I know a few people who think it's just too #problematic, but I never saw it as saying anything about how anyone should identify, it just seemed like a story of people navigating one experience of sexuality out of a multitude of possible experiences. And it has a real loving and joyful atmosphere; the protest sequence and the clubbing montage at the very end of the series make me so happy 😄.
It really is important to be validated otherwise the shame can sink in and it's no fun there. Thank you for making these videos. 💜
This whole video is wonderful, thank you so much for making it!
This is the best video essay I've seen in a while. You take your time and explain everything thoroughly, while showing multiple points of view. Thank you so much for taking my boy RT Davis' defense, some people on the internet just want to write whatever goes through their tiny heads
I've been a Doctor Who fan for almost 10 years and Russel T. Davies' era of New Who is my personal favorite, but I'm surprised this is the first time I see an analysis of how his previous queer work influenced his version of the show. It makes me appreciate his era even more and now I want to check out some of his other work, especially Bob and Rose.
I'm so glad you made this video talking about the representation in Loki and specifically to talk about Davies' comments. There were definitely some biphobic statements going around surrounding his relationship with Sylvie, but a lot of the responses to those statements were being hyper defensive of Disney's creative choices, and I think Davies' statements are very important because he speaks from a place of knowledge and experience in portraying bi characters, specifically bi men, in sci-fi television (although the MCU's Loki is gender fluid he presents as male primarily). Obviously as a bi man, it makes total sense that Loki would want to date Sylvie, and he's absolutely still queer when he falls in love with her, but as you talked about in your video games essay, if straight audiences could go the entire show blissfully unaware of Loki's queerness, is that really effective representation? I think a lot of the people lashing out at Davies and lumping him in with the biphobes were right to be on the defensive to a point, but it's a shame that they seem unaware of his legacy as a television writer and the incredible bisexual representation he was making in the 2000s. If kids today had better access to stuff like Torchwood, they might not be so afraid to ask for more from their media, and the fact that Davies' was quick to point out Disney's near-monopoly, especially in genre fiction, is a clear sign of what he's actually fighting back against as a creator. You're right that people are quick to wrap up their identity in the media they consume, but if they're going to rely on mass media for affirmation and validity, they're gonna keep coming up short until the viewership and independent creatives force Disney's hand.
what good bi rep? gen question
How does it make sense he would fall in love with himself? As stated both versions are authentic Loki.
Oh yeah, btw, I went to Cardiff Bay last year and Ianto Jone's shrine is still there is perfect condition, more is added every year.
This was an absolutely incredible video, thank you so much for your time and commitment to the research needed
Literally had a conversation with friends 2 weeks ago about affirming my sexuality as a bisexual person and how it’s different than being monosexual. I came out to some co workers and explained how it’s important that I’m visible as it’s so easy to be erased and assumed straight.
I feel like the only solution is, unfortunately, a large one, but fortunately, also the solution to most of today's world's ills- destroy capitalism
It's simple - kill the Batman. or something.
@@optimchs1 yep. It's called building something new. There's not just Capitalism snd communism. And capitalism is the issue in our spheres. The other thing to bear in mind is homophobia is culturally rife before they became communist, though not necessarily to its current form. *historical neuance*
My biggest problem with the Loki series is that Sylvie isn't called Loki. In Loki's files, that are shown in the background in a scene in the first episode I think, it says "Sex: Fluid", and to then call the only female version of Loki something else than Loki is like they just threw that information right out the window. Sylvie is, like you say, like a whole other character. We're told that she is a Loki variant, but it's not explicitly shown, for example we never see her shape-shift into another Loki variant, the only time she has another body than the Sylvie variant's body is when she possesses other people's bodies.
My god, you're easily one of the best youtube channels I follow. Wow, I signed up for some good old marvel/disney dragging and ended up with such a masterclass of a video. Thank you so much for all your content!