What Makes a Deep Cycle Battery Different
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- čas přidán 7. 07. 2024
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In this film we'll look at how deep cycle lead acid batteries differ from lead acid starter batteries so you can buy better.
#deepcyclebattery #deepcyclebatterystructure #deepcycling #deepcycling batteries - Věda a technologie
As a 40 year ASE Master Auto Tech, I have a clue about diagnosing and repairing cars, but, this battery video is the BEST explanation of battery production / function / and general use how-to I have ever seen. THANK YOU for adding to my education.
In recent years, the last several times I looked, deep cycle batteries were cheaper than standard car batteries; I figure because fewer sizes reduces warehousing costs?
As a deep battery oscillator myself , I've.lived a good life around some chunks of the expensive manufactirung process. (EMP). Near pure led is often onvious but it BEST coincides with the best options outnthere, and diagnosis helps reduce clutteringm. 35 years is more thannenough.
Additionally, a good deep cycle battery will have a larger well area beneath the plates to catch and store more sulfates, allowing the battery to have a longer lifespan before sulfates build up and potentially short a cell.
Not sulfates but plate material that has shedded off !
@@chavitacanta008 Actually, both; the sulfated plate material is shedded, and it affects flooded, AGM, and SLA batteries equally. Low and slow charging can sometimes disulfate and resurrect a "dead" battery (if it shorted due to sulfation).
Speaking of rolled cells, I've had an optima red top battery that survived multiple full drain cycles from leaving the lights on, and it never failed to come back to life after a jump start. Thing lasted WAY longer than most 12v car batteries I've owned and was well worth the money. I don't think it actually started to fail to hold a proper charge till it was left dead for like, 3 years or longer, and that was already after 5+ years of really hard abuse.
My brother had a red Optima battery that lasted 15 years!
Try them at altitude. We don't use them for anything we count on. Too unpredictable. They don't even sell them up here anymore.
I feel like optima used to be good. Their quality really went down hill.
I use only Optima batteries myself. Had one many years ago, last 14 years! Then I had to have my truck engine rebuilt. Made the mistake of just leaving the battery sit on the garage floor for months while I waited for the engine. Then the battery was no longer good. Wonder how long it COULD have lasted.
@@danielratzlaff5000 Leaving a battery on the concrete floor has no impact on the battery. However, not keeping it charged certainly does.
I swear, this video is the best video by far when it comes to describing the difference from a regular car battery from a deep cycle one.
Agree 💯
This was the best description of the different types of batteries I have seen to date. Well done.
I agree 👍 ❤
I too agree, but it would be even better without the "music" and the cartoons.
@@chrisengland5523 Lighten up a little. The cartoons make it a little fun.
I first avoided this video because of the length. After watching 5 other videos, neither of them had good information or were of really hommade quality.
I finally decided to watch this vid & i'm plesantly surprised at how perfect the animations blend with the narration in such a way that the information is actually delightful to ingest.
This vid format is perfect for informing beginners! thank you!
Do what I do and speed up the video to 1.25 or 1.5x. If I need to review a section I just rewind.
I mean, the buckling issue alone helped me understand the biggest difference. It's kinda wild how this wasn't explained in other videos. But it makes sense now. Deep cycle batteries are able to be drained much more because they won't buckle
It seems to me that the plates are also taller allowing longer amp hrs.
I'm not sure my lead acid deep cycle ONLY recommends half a tank use
@@carmichaelmoritz8662in which one GEL or ACID
I got my bacholors degree in electronics in 1972. I know a lot about electronics, but not necessarilly batteries per se. This is the best video on batteries I have even seen. One of my pet peeves is when people use "volt" when they mean "amps" and the like. AND THAT is why is it very hard to find a factual, well written video (or salesman) on the subject. YOU nailed this and made it easy for the layman to understand. Excellent video.
Using the English language incorrectly in ANY context is a massive pet peeve of mine, like major tool brands printing "foot-pounds" on torque wrenches. Foot-pounds is not interchangeable with pound-feet. People misuse the word "acronym" so much that dictionaries changed the definition to align with societies misuse of the term. 🤦♂
@@Kor1134Right! Foot pounds is correct and has been for at least 6 decades. Pound feet is not. I think that got started by ignorant Gen-xers and millennials.😂 You can take a hammer and pound your feet if you want to, but you might get a case of hammer toe.😂😂😂
You’re all wrong:
It’s Pound Force per foot…”lbf-ft”…
@@Kor1134 I have been in car repair since 1972. The reason I said that was not to brag, but, to let you know from my humble beginnings to now I have said FT-LBS so often, I am not capable of saying it the right way .I am lost........If there is an automotive teacher out there reading this. Kor1134 is correct. Teach the young to say pound-feet. Its the only way it will start to be used properly !!
@topcat5988 Yes, it is expressed that way in some disciplines but not all.
@BatteryGuy - Please do a video on the Nickle Iron Hydroxide wet cells that are used by railroads and the phone company. Each cell is 1.5 volts and some of these batteries have been washed out and loaded with fresh electrolyte and are near 100 years old. I have seen them in old communications buildings. Ma Bell loves them as battery backup for telephone switches much more than Lead Acid or Lithium. I believe they are using Calcium or Potassium Hydroxide. And they have no terrible environmental impact like the other two types. Your thoughts?
KlodFather - a man called Tesla used Nickel Iron batteries in his electric cars. Trolley buses in England that were scrapped in the early sixties used them as a temporary power while the overhead connectors were moved from one set of cables to another. Recently a farmer who purchased one and kept it in a barn for fifty years sold it off to a museum and you wouldn't 'adam and eve' it but the bloody battery still had a whopping charge. After 50 years 😮
Yes ! these batteries are almost indestructable ..... but .... their BIG weakness is letting the electrolyte dry out , so manufacturers often fit a water resevoir to stop this .... also they hold less electricity than the same size Lead acid type , so are only used when a lot of space is available ( eg railroad or static ) ....... DAVE™🛑
@@davidfalconer8913 - They are a favorite of Railroads, Telecoms, and communications companies... Yes all stationary. I have some photos of some massive banks of them and some that other techs showed me were almost 100 years old.
There wasn't a good reason for the loud and jarring sound effects when "rewinding." It was annoying and did not add anything to the video.
THANK YOU. I appreciate your help. Btw, since we last spoke I changed the whole system. The wet weather caused a need to adapt. 2 pumps now. One 1/2 hp AC submersible with a 3/4 hp back up on DC deep cycle bank. With a battery tender of course. We had been pumping out 40 liters every 2 minutes 24/7 for about a month.
Yes please turn down the background music like 90%
I live remote rural NSW Australia full solar and wind gen, run a three bedroom house and outlying shed and workshop all on 240V from the inverter. Wind keeps the batteries 24V system topped at night providing battery maintenance , run a separate system 12V for internal lighting all LED ,s , inverter soft start fridge freezer ect. Its about knowing what your lifestyle draws in the way of amperage and building the system to suit. Been at this for ten years or so , was an interesting learning curve indeed came from the coast and the city and knew nothing about off grid living , now we are doing it in comfort with few if any problems. Batteries are the highest cost item just replaced four at $350 each but with good maintenance they will last eight years or so , just replaced a five year old inverter $450 plus change that will run like the one it replaced for five to seven years , we have high temps here and micro mining dust not a friend to electronics. Had the opportunity to replace the deep discharge batteries with lithium batteries no thanks for many reasons that i wont go into here , thermal runaway being one of the main reasons followed by the price and then of course where the lithium is sourced from , but I digress I do that.
Very well explained and extremely accurate.
This video was really helpful. I’m not even in the market for a battery just her to learn more about them.
back in the 90's the gel filled batteries were just coming out, and i had a really good commercial battery salesman that explained all this to me, so i bought thousands of dollars of them for battery backup for a municipal first responder communication system (radios for police and fire). they worked out really well. this is a really good explanation though.
20 some years ago, the battery rep kind of pointed me into this, but was talking about high CCA batteries vs standard in a normal chemistry (so 850CCA vs 600CCA). To get the higher capacity required more and thinner plates, this video brought that discussion right back to me.
The rep was talking about how they had to produce the higher capacity batteries due to demand, but they had a lot more warranty comeback. For anything that went off-highway, we tried to steer the customers to the lower CCA battery just for durability. The equipment that took the industrial batteries we rarely had warranty comeback on.
I actually learned some things from this informative vid (and i'm a retired ASE cert. dealer tech). My dad was a big believer in deep cycle batteries, especially for his boat.
the sound effects stressed me out but good video lol
Yes, definitely didn't need to see the battery plate video entirely rewound lol
Very informative. Thank you
Thanks for the super explanation , i feel like a know all about batteries now .
Beautifully explained
Excellent video!
What a super video. Thank you for sharing.
Superb video explanation. Very helpful. Thanks for posting.
Great explanation! Thank you!
You taught me a lot thank you
There are also batteries with only slightly thickened plates and they are marketed as Hybrid Cycle, or some other catchy brand wordamage.
Great video, thanks!!!!
THANKS ALOT 👍, I NEVER KNEW THIS STUFF.
That rewind sounds effect 👎 gotta warn viewers about that
Not sure how you can have this discussion without mentioning Metallurgy?
Flooded lead acid batteries are typically lead calcium for starting batteries and Lead antimony for deep cycle. They have different qualities with the lead antimony alloy standing up to the deep discharging very well while evaporating off more water. While lead calcium can give a quick jolt for starting motors but can't be discharge much.
Then of course you have some Lead Selenium batteries, mostly in Europe which fall somewhere inbetween.
@Whit Elfner - Many batteries that are labelled "Deep Cycle" are Lead Calcium.
@@MrSummitville You can label a chicken a duck, it doesn't make it quack!
@@whitelfner4582 A battery does *not* need to be made from Lead Calcium to be a Deep Cycle battery. Plate thickness and Paste Design (Sponge vs Thick) are the only two factors that are needed to make a Deep Cycle battery. Antimony vs Calcium has both pro's and con's. Calcium is *not* a requirement for a Deep Cycle battery, especially in stationary applications. There are many "lead" formulas for Deep Cycle batteries, with additives like calcium, antimony, tin, selenium and arsenic. If you prefer lead-antimony then that is your personal choice.
@@MrSummitville I do like in flooded batteries that they can last in daily loads situations for 15 years or more...
NO flooded lead calcium battery has any place in deep cycle.
Suggest you research this!
I thought sulfation was a big issue with deep discharge.
AGM also helps limit gassing. (charging always creates H2/O2. in a flooded cell, it's just gone. in AGM, much of it is held in the mat and can recombine.) I've not seen any gel cells in a very long time.
Perfect explanation. i do respect your knowledge and experience, thanks, dear❤
Nice job on that rebuild. I don't think I would have bought it if I knew the extent of the damage it had.
Usually deep cycles have a mesh inside them and a liner in each cell.. the lead will have more surface area in the acid.. probably a different lead alloy as well..
Hi, Folks.
Firstly, thanks to BatteryGuy for this well explained video. GOOD STUFF.
Now for the 'kwestyuns':
1. WHY does my small camper vehicle's battery last 3, 4 or more years while the auxilliary 'deep cycle' battery that runs the 12 volt electrics within the camper AND is charged by both the vehicle alternator when running and a fairly substantial solar panel 'expire' like clockwork at TWO years even though it is NEVER fully discharged or even close to fully discharged??????????
2. If I were to replace the 'deep cycle' battery with a normal car battery which was likewise being charged by both the vehicle's charging system when the vehicle is running AND the solar panel when the sun is shining, what are the chances of the normal car battery still lasting longer than the 'deep cycle' battery? (In Australia, the sun shines MOST of the time during the days.)
The auxilliary 'deep cycle' battery for the camper's electrics currently runs a 10-gallon/45 litre car fridge all the time, a small 12-volt car fan sometimes, and four LED strip lights VERY intermittently and only for VERY short periods and seldom more than two at a time. And yet I have had FOUR 'deep cycle' batteries in the auxilliary battery role in SIX years, one at new and THREE replacements, the last two months ago.
I DON'T think I will buy any more 'deep cycle' batteries for it.
Just my 0.02.
You all have a wonderful day. Best wishes. Deas Plant.
Use a car battery to run that fridge and you'll be replacing it in six months. The fridge is eating your batteries.
Good 👍 job explaining
What an excellent video!
Thanks a lot, now I understand everything about car batteries 👍🏻✅
Actually, lead is pretty cheap (ca. $2 per kilogram). The main reason why you don't want more lead is that it is heavy.
Back when I was boating (10yrs ago?)deep cycle marine batteries where the same price as an automotive battery with the same amp capacity at least at canadian tire, and never a problem with it
Excellent video
Thanks for the video. What is it that makes the plates buckle when deeply discharged?
Heat
Very informative video. I do not see the manufacturing cost reflected in the retail pricing. What I see is the price the retailer can get away with.
For automotive batteries lead is the main ingredient ! The average battery contains 35 pounds of lead so the cost hinges on cost of lead . The plastic case and sulphuric acid are realetively cheap ! Then of course you have OSHA standards to meet because lead is highly posionous and cumalative ! Thats why most are made in Mexico these days !
@@chavitacanta008Yeah lead is less than a dollar a pound so commodity price is not an explanation for the price difference. Even manufacturing differences and complexity usually don't explain the price difference.
Maybe the tubular design deserves a higher price but making the plate thicker does not make much difference.
Great video. Thank you. I had been thinking of using a Deep Cycle Battery with a 3000W Inverter/charger for a backup power source to power a Sump Pump system.
What are your thoughts on this? In the Spring (NOW) my sump pump powers ON once every 5 minutes and pumps out approximately 5 liters of water. The pump is 1/2 hp. submersible.
first off: you need to add an inline check valve to your sump discharge pipe.($10). cycleing every 5 mins is to much. the check valve will stop the water backflowing when pump stops.
SECOND: don't run an inverter, they eat to much energy in the conversion from DC to AC. add a back up 12DC sumppump hooked to a quality deep cycle.
(Sometimes the Gugal ay eye takes ages to let me type a comment on yoo choob) any as a comment on user6 .... Discussion sump pumps .. what kind of pumps did miners use many years ago.
They had to pump water out of mines sometimes hundreds of feet to the surface.
Ever hear of a 'pulse' pump ?
Little bubbles of air bringing water to the surface for a very low cost. 24/7:365 days a week. Year in year out.
I agree you’ve overproduced the hell out of this one man just give us the info the graphics are great, but all the extra stuff is, well extra
Your far out audio effects are like a suddenly screeching seagull in a serene ocean audio for sleep aid
This explains why so many motorcycle batteries dies after a season. The agm rubs the protective covering away, and when winter comes the battery corrodes away.
This is the first time I've heard about an "active paste", moreover one that can flake off. In my area that language doesn't make sense, so I might search what that's about.
But I am curious as to its composition and any variants. Thanks for the informative video!
Excellent presentation.
Maybe batteries need a vibration absorbing base (Styrofoam?).
Is it possible to get a gel cyclon?
Correction - the paste for negative plates is gray initially. The positive plates are in fact red. The grid is nice, very accurate.
NOTE - seems to be correct later in video.
Great video. Easy to understand.
So why can't we fix these batteries at home?
How helpful is the paste ?
Are there differences in acids used ? H2SO4 verses cupric acid (it was a chemistry class)
Well the toxic corrosive chemicals are one reason. Also how would you fix flaked paste without just making a new battery?
@@thewhitefalcon8539 Well the paste is a new addition. It would be nice to recycle the paste. I just do not know enough about it.
The acid is very corrosive. Both new battery acid and containers to hold it sealed can be bought at an auto parts store in America.
I've seen videos of Pakistanis melting the lead down to recast the plates. The batteries we built in class were solid lead strips wound in a coil with a mesh separator. A mesh would be more efficient.
@@allenshepard7992 I think the paste on both plates is some chemical variety of lead. These batteries are extremely recyclable, and the most effective way to fix one might well be to melt it down and put its materials into the production line for new batteries.
@@thewhitefalcon8539 Here in the states you are right - use the dead batter for the "core charge" to get it recycled. I think that is why battery lead is the most recycled product.
Oooh oooh oooh... I have another question...
If it is the cycles which ultimately kills them, then why do they deteriorate when sitting on the shelves of sellers to the point of being merely core-worthy?
...if there is no occurrence of the destructive cycling process?
I have a camper truck, with two deep cycle batteries and two starter batteries. I have been disappointed with the performance of my deep cycle batteries, trying to run a small microwave and toasters etc, they could not supply the amps to my inverter to run these units and to last, but using the whole battery bank, which is meant to be a no no mixing the two types, have no prob and the batteries last longer. Just goto monitor their discharge rate and never go below 50% discharge
Because the new cars and trucks are now autostart/stop at lights manufactures are now putting AGM in from the factory, I have one in my truck, a good size AGM will set you back $200, I have always run deepcycle in my vehicles because I have Ham radios and need something that can go deep, even under the abuse of doing off road truck things LOL I have always gotten about 5 years out of a deepcycle, testing is still on going with AGM but at 4 years now
I went to a battery school many years ago put on by exide who is now enersys, and they had also commented that deep cycle batteries should not be left on a battery charger as they are designed to be charged and then cycled then rechaced, and that standard automotive batteries are designed to be charged all the time.
Great video but no explanation of how the slow discharge rate is achieved in a deep cycle battery? What about Life deep cycle?
Fantastic video, but PLEASE pay attention to how loud the sound effects are versus the voice.
I crank up the volume to hear your soft spoken voice only to get blown away by the cash register and rewind sound effects.
Likewise be careful about layering music and voice as in some places the music muffles you out.
Besides audio this video is absolutely perfect.
I must be missing something because small capacity AGM batteries will die at the first attempt to deep cycle. Any ideas?
When you buy one….. you’ll dig DEEP into your pocket😳👋🏼😳
You did not explain that you need a greater amount of thinner plates per cell on a starter battery and thicker plates on a deep discharge battery?
Or the fact that Lead Acid batteries (quality) have 13 - Plates, where a cheap Battery will only have 11 Plates. Still a great explanation though.
@@peterduxbury927 I agree except what is implied but not said is "do not try to start your car with a deep cycle battery." Also, same logic, is "don't drain a LA battery below a certain point."
Where I'm from.... The Southeastern US.... deep cycle marine batteries are actually cheaper than regular ones.
Wet cell batteries hold up better under high heat vs AGM always is away from the heat like under the back seats .
Agm with a glass Matt seperator is the most expensive per ah battery for deep cycle batteries, followed by lead carbon then everything else
Can a Lead-Acid Battery be replaced with a AGM battery ?
United Parcel Service unit battery?
Well said Sub.
👍👍
❤
So, perhaps I haven't dug through the channel enough to find the answer, but how do I know I am getting a good battery? The optima batteries have failed me early. I just replaced a Napa battery in my Kia that was from 03/21 and was never abused. The only time it discharged was when it did it on its own... like a shorted cell or something in there. I just replaced an AGM in my snowmobile that was from 2008 or so. I've seen old Diehard Golds go 10 years and get abused and still go well. But the Diehard brand has been tossed around over the decades, so who knows what goes on inside of them now.
The old optima's were great american made batteries that lasted for years and years. But the company was bought out and they are now made in Mexico and the quality of the battery has dropped drastically
But it's Ok to have a buckle on my belt though? Great video!
By far more info in a single video on lead acid battery.
Yeah but the safe charge rates weren't mentioned. I don't think gel and AGM can take jigh charge rates.
I found this informative. But the music sucks in this
I was buying deep cycle batteries for my RV . They are abused. They would last about three years. Standard batteries last about two years. The standard batteries are less painful to buy and more useful to borrow by other vehicles in my stable.
it should be noted that AGM battery chargers are different as well
So, what is the destructive function which ultimately plagues the tubular design?
Do they eventually bust open and drop their paste?
Also,
I think you've hinted at it by telling us about the shady practices of dishonest sellers but...
We now know that the construction of D.C.'s is slightly more robust... and that their manufacturers have begun using different shapes for their components, for DECADES by now, yet they still seem to require they cost heaps more to users because they haven't standardized the advanced (over older, simpler "flat grid-plated") designs to obsolete the antiquated "S.L.A." design.
However, are we supposed to take-away that, when it comes to the science of how they combine chemicals with materials in a reaction to avail electricity for use at their terminals... they do it, or "cycle," essentially the exact same way?
I was really expecting different chemicals or something.
Please learn the difference between energy and power.
Is there an English version of this without a accent
Cyclon batteries for backup application in telecommunications and emergency lighting.
Cyclon batteies use pure lead -no calcium or antimony in the alloy, and Pb is 99.99% pure. They aren't manufactured in China, because they haven't the pure lead. Another feature is the starved electrolyte, in the sense there is only the quantity of H2SO4 necessary to complete the discharge reaction and not more. This limit the amount of lead sulphate which can form inside. The separator is a very thin glass mat under mechanical pressure.
These batteries are a dream to work with, especially the low internal resistance, the ability to operate in freezing conditions, and the very low self discharge. Their only problem, if neglected for long time, there will be no H2SO4 left inside, and you must use some unusual procedures to boot the battery again. I prefer a Cyclon - pure lead - over Li-Ion cells, as they don't die in hot weather or following a mechanical shock. Also, I had some cylindrical Lead-acid last for 25 years - you can't even dream that with Li-Ion; their high terminal voltage keeps them outside the thermodynamical window of stability; in Lead-acid batteries the oxygen over-potential keeps them very stable...
So now that I know why you shouldn't use a standard lead acid battery as a deep cycle.
Can someone explain why it would be bad to use a deep cycle in place of a standard lead acid?
I am in powered wheelchair. Why couldn't I segregate one 12v battery and start my car?
You could. It won't damage it.
You can’t use pure lead for plate material ! Positive and negative plates use different formulations of lead material in the plates ! Don’t know specifics but antimony is in the plate material also . Don’t understand why lead has become so expensive ! In the 80’s sold for 5 cents a pound . Way more than that now . Guess they need it for all the military ammo they have been using last 20 years !
No,the government put a huge user tax on the manufacturing end to try to limit use, the price quadrupled overnight. I wonder where that money goes....
You forgot to mention the surface area
ALL BACK TO COST YET AGAIN, THE MONETARY SYSTEM MUST GO! put a joule thief circuit in the battery, jobs a good one doubles the life span.
@1:27- Low "power", not low energy.
You forgot to mention that Lead acid batteries last the longest if FULLY recharged ASAP after any use .... removing a battery from an automobile and abandoning it in your shed for 2 years WILL ruin it ! ........ DAVE™🛑
yet lead is only worth a few cents a pound for scrap so in theory it should be less for manufacturing than copper.
recycle 1 pound of scrap bare bright copper and get maybe $3 buy 1 pound worth of bare copper wire at electrical store and pay maybe $20 or $30.
to keep the cost of battery manufacturing could be brought down by using sketchy labor practices maybe even making them in conflict regions (blood batteries anyone?)
جيد
Who knew batteries are so mumbo,jumbo. Ok in your veiw sealed lead acid deep cycle OR gel cell deep cycle sealed for a monstrous mobility scooter
Yes but the Lithium manufacturing is far more complex, far more expensive materials, far deeper cycling, far better lifespan and basically the same retail price or even cheaper...
Lead just cannot sell anymore when "deep" means 20-50% rated capacity for a few years...
Gel deep cycles are expensive and shit.silver calcium is way better
These days LiFePo4 is superior. Lighter, not devastated by discharging down to near zero, and much more cycle life.
And their price is EVIL!!! 😈😈🔥🔥💩💩☠☠ They are certain damnation for your wallet.
@@KlodFather For a 12V 100Ah I see them about 35% more than SLA. I think they last a lot longer and don't degrade nearly as much just sitting there, so I think they are good competition. The main limitation is not being able to discharge them at high current as lead-acid can easily do.
Nobody would ever recommend a deep cycle for a ups.. As most ups batteries are at 100% of their charge most of their life.
I seems to me that the EV manufacturers may have invented a TNT or nitroglycerin battery! 😂😂😂
2:35 Only 30 plates in a twelve volt battery? Not very many?
The number of plates is purely down to the amperage it must supply for a particular vehicle. 30 plates or less in some....more in others.
A small Toyota Rush for example has a tiny sized battery: A Volvo with a V8 has a stonking great battery in the boot area......just more plates is all.
And diesels need even greater amperage due to the higher compression ratio....... Horses for courses.
You have not justified 3x the price.
You lost me at anode and cathode. I hope there's a simpler explanation why a deep cycle battery is more expensive. Will do a search. I hope there's a simpler explanation. Shorter video.
I think Lithium iron phosphate batteries are replacing deep cycle lead acid batteries and AGM batteries.
Think 12 dollar signs not 3 :)
@@andrewallen9993 Yes I agree that Lithium iron phosphate batteries are much more costly than most flavors of lead acid batteries but they have a higher energy density than lead acid batteries and are much easier to maintain with the built in battery manage systems and many more charge/discharge cycles. As more battery manufactures have started producing them I have seen the prices come down. While they may never be as low at lead acid batteries I think that they do have a lot to offer over lead acid.