Is Wheel of Time History & Lore Inaccurate in the S1 Finale? | History Deep Dive
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- The season one finale of The Wheel of Time had a controversial cold open flashback to 3000 years before the story in the show; was it accurate to the history and lore established by Robert Jordan?
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CHAPTERS:
0:00 - Intro
0:31 - Spoiler Warning
0:55 - History Lesson 1
2:14 - Is it Accurate?
3:35 - Where's The War of the Shadow?
4:47 - Lews Therin's Arrogance
7:26 - Unforeseen Corruption
10:29 - Who's Who? | Confusing Roles
12:07 - Learn More
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S1 EPISODE DEEP DIVES:
▶ Eps 1-3: • Wheel of Time S1 Episo...
▶ Ep 4: • Wheel of Time S1 E4 Ex...
▶ Ep 5: • Wheel of Time S1 E5 Ex...
▶ Ep 6: • Wheel of Time S1 E6 Ex...
▶ Ep 7: • Wheel of Time S1 E7 Ex...
▶ Ep 8: Coming Soon
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WOT 101:
▶ Playlist: • WOT 101 - Spoiler-free...
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WOT 201:
▶ The Ways (Books vs Show): • BOOKS vs SHOW - The Wa...
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Remember to tag your spoilers in the comments or keep comments to Season One and Book One only! Thanks for watching!
Book Spoiler
What's important to point out his her plan involves using 2 superweapons that must be fired at the exact same time to have any chance of success, and at the point showed here at least one of them had fallen into enemy territory. I can't remember if the access keys had been lost as well, but even if they were available could they risk using them. An enemy hacker might be willing to suicide themselves to either delay or backfire the one superweapon thus preventing them from working and possibly doing a ton of damage to the forces of the light in the process. And yes I'm phrasing it this way to keep spoilers to a minimum but I'm certain anyone who read the books can interpret what I'm saying correctly. her plan had already become even riskier than his seemed at the time and required them to devote a large military might to recover territory to have any chance of succeeding, where his was ready right then and looked plausible.
My big issues with this scene were the two you mentioned the use of the phrase dragon reborn and the seeming foreknowledge of the price of his plan, and while I do hope the writers fix this soon, my faith in their ability to correct explanations when they have used some glossary keywords incorrectly already is minimal at best.
You are injecting a lot of your own unsubstantiated opinion here. Given what we've seen so far there is no evidence that your guessing is going to turn out to be true. These changes are purposeful. They've changed not only the lore but the rules of the power and how it functions as well. Even your own arguments mention these deviations, but you wipe them away with, again, unsubstantiated conjecture. We all know they have no intention of following any canon rules and lore. Why are you so desperate to defend them?
Hello Loren! ((please let me know if I gave mispelled your name. 🙇🏽♀️)) I’m wondering if there are any other book material or side books of the Wheel of Time series? My best friend LOVES the book series, and she only has the main ones.
I could have sworn you mentioned at one point that their are side stories written by the Ogre & books that have Robert Jordans original notes? But I may have misunderstood…
Maybe this scene changed because of covid- but to me, it would be much better served to actually show the political strife in this cold open. Start with the wind going over battlegrounds and destroyed cities, to then this utpoia, zoom into some sort of congress like building, show people arguing over what to do, and have LTT get up and give a speech. Have people call him mad, and then him say enough talk, and walk out with 100 people.
To me, the feel of this cold open isn't urgent- doesn't show anything of real value, and calls him TDR, which is just iritating...
I think the open shows just what they wanted to show. Not Lews Therin the desperate leader faced with inevitable defeat if his plan was not followed, but Lewis Therin, a not-leader, but just a powerful man who messed everything up with all the other men because he didn't listen to his better.
@@Jamesmatise I am sure they showed what they wanted, but IMO- it is the wrong way to introduce that character.
It shows him sane and calm- I feel like we should only get that much later
I think they were in a tough place. SASG is just way too dense to put in a cold open. I have a feeling the CK will be background in the show, so wasting that much time on "but we will be building powerful sa'angreal instead of your reckless plan" would have been a waste.
I honestly think the strife only came to forefront *after* the vote. I wish a vote had been mentioned. "We will vote on it, but Lews Therin, you will lose"
@@Novagenesis even so, it just doesn't come across right imo. I don't mind if it is different, but I really don't think this convays what was going on at the time.
@@CriticalxMiss I think it being a non-book scene and LTT's pride being a valid interpretation, Rafe has a ton of opportunity to introduce us to the War of Power with his own spin without significantly changing lore canon at all. We have already been hinted that AoL scenes will be an ongoing thing. To me, this is almost what I expect of the *very moment* that LTT and LPD first argue after it is discovered that they will eventually lose, but before the world actually starts to fall to Shadow.
I also did a double take when they referred to Lews Therin as the "Dragon Reborn" in the show. It really hit my ear wrong. It seemed a bit unnecessary, unless they are changing the very nature of who/what the "Dragon" actually is. If Rand and Lews Therin are BOTH the Dragon Reborn in the show, then who was the original Dragon? Just hoping it'll get cleared up in future seasons (like so many other things, lol) Great video as always!
Technically, LTT was the Dragon Reborn. He just didn't know it. This isn't the first turning. There *isn't* a first turning.
It struck me weird as well, but only because it seemed an unnecessary change.
@@Novagenesis in my opinion i think this particular dialogue was written by someone who didn't read the books. You're right about that lore of course, but I don't think they did it with this knowledge in mind. It seems to me that they incorrectly thought ALL of the chosen ones were called "Dragon Reborn," when Lews Therin had the title of "Dragon" sans Reborn.
you don't have to keep reading, but if i'm right, i don't know why they wouldn't have consulted their lore experts for this scene. perhaps that's why so many people have criticized this scene--because someone who hasn't read the books might have written it? This is a very important scene regarding the history of the world and the lore, so you'd think that they'd REALLY wanna make sure everything was approved by a loremaster
@@Novagenesis yes and no. Yes that LTT was the spirit reborn of the previous incarnation of the soul. But since Lews Therin was called the Dragon, a title, it doesn’t necessarily follow that he himself is the dragon reborn, like Rand is, since Rand is the prophesied to be the dragon reborn. Not every iteration of the soul is “the dragon reborn.” And certainly the people of Lews Therins time wouldn’t call him that. Made zero sense
@@GannerRhysode I agree that it's a change, but it's a very minor one and fairly congruent with RJ's intent and the design of the world. You can disagree that they needed to dumb it down so much, but it's not really drastic.
I know the hater wince at the term "different turning", but the overall show is far more closely in-line with the books than the "different turnings" we see hints of in the books.
@@Novagenesis
Precisely - both Lews and Rand are the same soul born in different turns of the wheel. Whether previous incarnations were called the dragon or not is not entirely clear, given so much of what was known has been lost. Either way, it’s a pretty minor change to get hung up about.
I just dislike how Latra is framed as totally in the right, when in reality if anything, just like the men and women of the modern story, they were both stubborn arrogant jerks. Lews Therrin admitted his plan might not work and it was the only option they had, but realistically he thought he would succeed, Latra's plan was already in shambles by this point and like climate change irl, she was in total denial that her play was untenable and they needed to consider a more dramatic defence.
Good point!
it's like the writers of the TV show just skimmed the books, and missed half the content :-/
Or maybe they didn't try to pack all of the content from the books into one season, just like RJ revealing things gradually over many books. I have hope that they'll fill in more as the show progresses.
@@UnravelingthePattern I'm fine with them cutting content, and even minor rearrangement, that is just the nature of tv adaptations.
What I don't like, is when they change stuff for no reason, like in the first episode, en aes-sedai said something like "You taint the source by touching it" to a man, but that is entirely backwards, the source is already tainted, and by touching it, he gets tainted by the dark one as well.
It makes it seem like the writers don't understand the material they are adapting.
I think some of it stems from Hollywood's woke pandering, so they can not have distinct female and male powers, since everything is supposed to be fluid or whatever?!
I stopped after episode 4 since I could not take it anymore, but from what I've heard, it does not get better, and calling Lews the dragon reborn further confirms that the writers don't understand/care about the original material :-(
The book series is so great, I am saddened to see the material treated like this.
Oh well I am a filthy book snob, so take it for what you will ;-)
What a great surprise to wake up to!
As someone who's only read the entire series once, I'm incredibly grateful for your videos ❤️
The memory of this not a show but an "attempt for a show" is still bringing me sadness. Maybe one day it will fade away completely.
You left out an important point. The way things are presented in the show makes it seem that there was no (pre-existing, Creator-made) prison - LTT was NOT therefore resealing the Bore into the prison, but simply taking it into his head to "cage" an immortal godlike being. Anyone can be forgiven for thinking that the writers' purpose is to make it clear that Moiraine was correct. And not just that: the book's scenario would seem to be too ambiguous for their tastes, not leading to the conclusion they want the viewer to make. How else to explain the total lack of context with which the issue is presented?
I am still waiting for them to completely remove Lanfear's role in creating the Bore and pin all the blame on Lew's Therin .
@@Haxerous LOOL that would be funny af, but sad. in a funny way.
Moiraine was in fact correct about Lews Therin. A quote from the books about Lews Therin: "devious in battle, hard as stone, and arrogant as the mountains, but open and softhearted as a girl"
So yes, Moiraine was correct. The point of this quote is to show that Lews Therin is complex. He's smart and crafty, he's tough. At the same time he's friendly, open, and kind. But he's also supremely arrogant. Who among us wouldn't be prideful in his position? He's the leader of the free world, he's the hero chosen by GOD HIMSELf, he's the most powerful warrior alive, wanted by tons of attractive women.
The point is, he's arrogant because he's HUMAN. Despite all of his nigh godlike powers, despite all of his accolades and achievements, he's still just a man. Exactly like you pointed out. And... [SPOILERS FOR ALL OF SERIES, DON'T READ ON IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED]
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...that fact is part of why Lews Therin lost to the Dark One, who is, as you said, a nearly omnipotent godlike entity. Only when Rand combines his previous experiences as Lews Therin, with the experiences of his current life does he start ascending beyond the limits of a mortal man. Beyond the limits of even the most powerful mortal man. These experiences, his past failures, are what lead Rand to come to the correct conclusion on how exactly to defeat the Dark One.
Also the fact that in the last book he starts slowly becoming Jesus-like, or basically just (demi)godlike. Oh and also the fact that he had the experiences and powers of Moridin along with all that, and thus an incredible understanding of both the True Power and the Dark One himself
This episode is the one that broke me. It doubled down on all the attitudes and concepts that, until then, I could just chalk up to unreliable narrators. The writers are not great at all, in comparison to people writing The Boys or any number of other fantastic shows. (And especially not Rafe, going by his penned ones, ep 1 and 8). So don't count on some masterful future retelling that puts this in a context that makes it more accurate. It was an unnecessary deviation but very deliberate (though I won't speculate on the reasons.) It broke the very themes of the series and I don't think that can be undone. They baked it into the cake, as it were. That ship has sailed.
i will likely watch the 1st few eps of season 2 out of morbid curiousity, but I have no hope that it will be better. I see some book fans defending Rafe's interpretation out of desperate hope that it will be the wheel of time they love. And I get it. I was that guy until 8 aired. But I don't think Rafe wants to tell the story in the books. He wants what the story should have been if he was in charge and was hitting all the themes he wanted.
Which is a shame. Because the casting is fantastic, the music is great, as are the costumes and some of the locations (though they need the "used universe" look Lucas pioneered in the star wars trilogy.) The story was good enough, even with adaptation, that it would have worked.
But Rafe has decided to change the themes and emphasis of the series. I DONT believe that he is driving at the same things that RJ was. The Dragoncon interview with Maria Simmons made me sad. You can hear it in her voice and see it in her face even as she tries not to say anything negative about the show (for legal and I'm sure other reasons.) Red Eagle pissed off RJ. Those clowns are still involved (as EP's). I have no doubt RJ would not have been happy with this adaptation and she knows it.
We'll see if you decide to jump ship in season 2, Lauren. I know ep 8 was a hard swallow but you found a way past it. It'll be curious to know if you feel the same after season 2. I'm not holding my breath that Rafe has any intention of course correction (even if he could, principle filming was already heavily underway before season 1 finished. Far too late to rework scripts in any meaningful way.) I'm not giving this 3 seasons to get good. This isn't someone inventing stuff out of whole cloth (like ST:TNG or other shows.) This was an adaption of an existing (though flawed) work.
Rafe hopefully stops any writing, he has no soul or humor in his scipts and can't create humanlike characters.
I was really disappointed in s1e8 as well and did not want to rewatch it. I thought I was done with this TV show.
But curiosity drew me back in with season two and to my delight I am really enjoying it.
It does not heal the sins from the first season but is still intrigueing and fun to watch.
How is it for you?
@leza4453 I agree! S2 is much better over all. I just hope they stick the landing with the end.
@@UnravelingthePattern When I was a teenager, I picked up the books and loved them. Even though I had just started learning English, I reread them all twice in English because I could not wait for the translation. Many many years later, when AMoL came out, I decided to reread, but was afraid that I would find it cheesy (befitting the taste of a teenager).
I was blown away. It was so good! I felt I could appreciate the series as an adult with life experiences so much more. The intricacies of societies and power plays. The epic characters. The incredible world building. I am so grateful to RJ for this wonderfull gift!
And I enjoy watching videos and reading comments of people around the world who went on the same journey and love it as much as I do. So thank you for your videos!
@@leza4453 That's a great experience. Thanks for sharing! I completely agree, the series has so many layers that it's even BETTER with life experience.
So glad this became its own video. Great detail!
Glad you like it!
Great stuff, Lauren - keep the faith - fantastic visuals as always - Taishar
Book Spoilers Below!
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10:30 I think it's pretty clear from the end of Memory of Light that even if the women HAD helped Lews Therin, it would have just resulted in Saidar being tainted as well. Because when Rand is described as closing the Bore, the Dark One tries to do the same thing again, but the fact that Rand has the True Power from Moridin is what allows him to prevent the Dark One's counterstroke. I think the exact phrase was "wielding Saidin and Saidar, sheathed in a glove of the True Power..." which always made me think that it was the Dark One's own essence that Rand was using to protect Saidin and Saidar from counterstrokes as he used them to seal the Bore.
Yes for sure! That's a major part of the very end which is why I was trying to be vague about it, but you're absolutely right! I wonder how/if this will be handled in the show.
Indeed. And before the final book Jordan suprisingly even outright said it during an interview. If the women would have joined the sealing of the bore, it would have been absolutely catastrophic (more than it already was)
While true, there is a even biggest risk to waiting. One choeden Kal was located in a city that had fallen to the shadow, a weapon capable of completely freeing the dark one from his prison. It likely was only a matter of weeks before the Forsaken discovered its use and claimed victory without any meaningful resistance. Lews Therin presented a masterstroke to cut the head off the snake. His counterpart was putting all her faith in retaking cities theyve already failed to defend. At that time, the Aes Sedai and forces of light were rapidly weakening, whereas the shadow was at its strongest and getting stronger. Lews Therin was a strategic genius, the best military strategist the had, and pointed out that unless they have a critical victory stroke soon, then their loss was inevitible. The only strategists even comparable had joined the shadow.
I think RJ confirmed that Saidar would have been tainted too. Nobody knew that would have been a consequence. They feared that poor seal placement would rip the prison open. OTOH, it is true that the cities where the access keys to the Choden Kal were made were overrun, and Lews Therin knew it. Things had to play out as they did in order for humanity to eventually win in the next age.
The taint definitely came out of left field, it wasn't a suspicion anyone had(or at least pointed out in the books). And at that point in the war the only reason the shadow hadn't already won was because of infighting. With the loss of the choedal Kal, more and more people defecting to the shadow, and the dark one getting stronger...the light had effectively lost. Even with the dark one and 13 Forsaken sealed, there was still something like 70 years between sealing and breaking.
Enough time for the consequences to be understood and countermeasures to be put in place(callandor)Callander.
Realistically speaking, they sacrificed the male Aes Sedai to even have a chance at victory...and that was the only route to victory. Had the female Aes Sedai joined, the breaking would have been total, and the shadow would have won. Had LTT not led the strike at shayol ghul, the shadow would have won.
Helps to remember that one of the Forsaken trapped was Aginor, the one responsible for creating most of the shadows non-human forces. Removing him from the battlefield likely was one of the critical elements in victory during that 70 year span. Granted it was unintentional, but effective nonetheless.
Really loved the thumbnail!
I really do hope the writers learned what worked well and what not worked.
I generally liked the season, but this scene was my least favorite thing about this adaptation so far. It really did feel to me that they were dumbing the story down to just make the male character stupid while the female character had precognitive wisdom.
Yeah, I agree. But I really believe they're going for the "unreliable narrator" and they will be expanding and clarifying that backstory as the show progresses, just like RJ did.
@@UnravelingthePattern I would hope for that, except that the scene as shown to us is not from an unreliable narrator. We are shown the caption 3,000 years ago, putting us in the room with them as it happened, and we are looking through an omniscient camera, not through the eyes of a servant or someone witnessing or narrating what happened.
In the lore of the show, this is how it actually happened - except if they grossly misused filmmaking technique and want to retcon it later.
@@wotfanedit What I meant is that this is just a small piece of a larger story, which I'm sure will be fleshed out more as the show progresses. It's common for flashbacks to be used to gradually reveal the truth about something little by little. It's not like this scene is the only bit of the AoL we'll get. I'm hopeful that they'll help clarify things with more flashbacks and context as the show progresses. We also saw a flash of Lews Therin and The Man at the Eye, so I assume there is more story to be told there as well.
@@UnravelingthePattern I hope so! My wish is for S2 to open with the Dragonmount prolog, and for us to get a truckload of lore in the Rhuidean sequence (S3/4 I presume).
I had a thought which I'll explain in a separate comment so that it doesn't get buried in a thread.
@@UnravelingthePattern that is precisely what I quickly wrote in another comment. I think it's more than just unreliable narrator, but also "unreliable judgement" as we're still missing pieces of info, nearly like if they knew ppl would judge this single season without keeping in mind that they aim to adapt the entire series as a whole, as Rafe kept saying from the start!
Amazing video, as always!
A couple of small Innacurates I found plus one big one I wanted shared that bothered me about this scene . Book Spoilers ( Book 6ish it's more general world building rather than Events of the mainline story)
In the books by the time Lews Therin's plan was being considered Latra Posae's own plan had already failed, That being the Defeating the Dark one's forces by building basically two uber powerful world ending weapons the choedan kals. They were made but their acess keys required for their use was lost during the fighting. So added to the sense of urgency the forces of the light had since one or both could end up in hands of the enemy. This plan also supports and people who were against it warming about it the weapons being too powerful or falling into the wronge hand.
I feel like this point should have been mentioned since it was not Lews Therin who had a reckless plans but also Latra Posae and her plan had already failed, so it's a little rich for her to lecture lews Therin.
Some minor stuff was if I recall correctly all though out the war of power and before that lews Therin was the Tamyrlin not Laetra. Addionally I don't why Lews Therin was refered to as "The Dragon Reborn". When he was just the Original Dragon and just called Dragon, During this time the world had no concept or memory of the pervious Dragon of the Cycle of the Dragon reborn. He started the legend of the Dragon.
The other side to that issue is that LTT's plan *could have directly destroyed the Pattern*. The show decided to simplify the story by saying it could corrupt the Power instead. It's fair to say both sides were equally desperate in the end, but we have to remember that the vote where LTT lost happened before the Choedan Kal were even built.
"This project had its detractors, too, for the sa'angreal were planned to be so powerful that either one might well provide enough of the One Power to destroy the world, while both together certainly would"
Planned to be. It was a highly controversial argument, with both sides having a lot of support. But something happened after LPD's side won that caused a rift up to and after the Choedan Kal were built and ultimately lost... and that could only have been LTT not dropping it, and campaigning against her plans.
"The arrogance" I thought she was talking about was that of those at the Collam Daan that originally cracked the Dark One's prison.
As someone who read Eye of the World after watching the show, I honestly didn’t pick on most of what you presented at the time. I think the inclusion of Lews is amazing and might have been fan service, though, because it didn’t add much to me. I just can’t remember anything about that scene, because it was very underwhelming.
I think that if I was told that the Amelyn Seat was a male and seen that the female channelers could’ve helped but refused due to overzealousness, it’d be easier to understand Lews motives and on the other hand question the present Aes Sedai and if they can be trusted with their judgment.
This is great input. I appreciate this perspective and I hope my "history lesson" didn't spoil anything for you!
@@UnravelingthePattern in no way, I love your videos and they are really entertaining and informative! It hasn’t spoiled anything because I watched WOT 101 and the timeline videos like 5x LMAO
@Anna Peixoto seriously thank you so much! that's all I want is for people to watch and hopefully enjoy my videos. It means so much that they are helpful to you!
Another great video, thank you so much. I think as a long time book reader and re-reader it's easy to forget the things I used to not know. That prologue for example. Now it's brilliant and moving and a key event. On my first read it was a whole lot of WTF and wondering when those characters were coming back :D The same goes for the history - it becomes easy to point out things we see as wrong, when actually they could just be things we don't have the full information about. Maybe Lews Therin stepped down from his position as Tamarlin to better direct the war effort. Maybe the Age of Legends had generous paternity leave, so Latra was in charge of all the boring day to day admin while he spent time with his newborn. There's lots of possibilities that are much more fun to think of than lore being 'wrong'.
I agree. The "wrong" part is just clickbait, haha
@@UnravelingthePattern I also liked your other clickbaity references! made me laugh 😃
One of the things that occurred to me during one of Ishamael's POV chapters was that, for all of his intelligence and working knowledge of how the universe works (in the WoT), in his nihilistic analysis of the inevitable victory of the Dark it seemed that he had forgotten to "carry the one"; he was wrong. The Dark One himself states that all he ever has to do is win once, and all that was or will be will fall under his shadow. In an infinite cycle of infinite varieties of infinite possibilities in an infinite multiverse, a single possibility of DO's victory is the same as an absolute certainty. Therefore it has never happened and never will happen; it's the absolute vindication of Descartes' famous Cogito ergo sum: I think therefore I am.
Not entirely sure where I was going with all this, but another possibility that must have been manifest in a turning of the Wheel is that it was Latra's plan that succeeded and it was Saidar which was tainted. No idea how that would have gone down, but it would still have been interesting to see no doubt.
BOOK SPOILERS:
Awesome thoughts. I'm guessing in another turning it was saidar that was tainted, but the DO likely can't ever actually win as you said. Or at least, so I assume.
@@UnravelingthePattern Er, not exactly.
Just my thoughts.
After meditating on this for the odd hour in over 30 years, I really think that Robert Jordan uses the unreliable narrator for himself. There is very little evidence that a Creator really exists. The Dark One seems to be a very powerful creature (possibly an evil alien for outer space that came [just to be original] to conquer the Earth) and humans have evolved to develop telekinetic powers or can manipulate temporal energy But since they can't explain it in the unscientific times of the books, they rely on superstition.
It is not that different from the idea of the Vikings that they had to scream during an eclipse to beg Wotan to bring the sun back. Or from the Aztecs sacrificing human hearts to keep the sun shining in the sky. (I could give examples of Jewish and Christians, but I think that would put me in deep trouble)
As a person who studied science and currently teaches science, I will always prefer the scientific explanation, even in fantasy novels.
There is a strange paradox with this and with the concept of multiple worlds. If the Dark One is imprisoned in one he is imprisoned in all worlds. If he breaks free in one, he breaks free in all. The only way he never escapes and wins is if there is an existence where he necessarily loses every time. Perhaps there are an infinite number of alternate realities where the Dark One wins, but in the one that matters he never can.
Awesome video, as usual.
Glad you enjoyed it! And thank you so much for the support! It means a lot!
It never made sense to me that the people of the 3rd age would have knowledge of prophecy and other turnings of the Wheel, while the people of the 2nd age did not. How did the 3rd age figure out the cyclical nature of the Wheel when so much knowledge was lost?
Good points. I don't have a good answer except that the prophecies came from people with Talents of Foretelling, Dreaming, and Reading the Pattern (like Min) after Lews' death.
Is there anything to suggest that the people of the 2nd age didn't have knowledge of Prophecy and other turnings of the wheel? They aren't going to know anything about the 3rd age or a previous 2nd age though. Just like the 3rd age only know snippets of the 2nd age and EXTREMELY vague stories of the first age.
The forsaken know about it. Ishamael definitely knew about the cyclical nature of the wheel before the War of Power. So it was atleast a topic in philosphy courses at the very least.
I imagine the ONLY reason that the 3rd age knows is due to knowledge saved from the 2nd age and of course what can be gleaned from the recorded prophecy.
In regards to prophecy, it is possible that the pattern did not spin out many people with the talent for foretelling during this time so maybe they didn't have many actual prophecies until very late in the age. We know that powers and talents such as that wax and wane.
But yes, the cyclical nature of the world does pose some problems in universe to me as well. I assume that at some point the cyclical nature is forgotten in universe. Otherwise how does it go from age 7 back to age 1? One must assume that in Age 1 we have no idea of this nature otherwise why wouldn't it be called Age 8. I assume it wouldnt be until age 2 that this is found out presumably through use with the one power. And is it actually known anywhere in universe that there are only 7 ages? I can't recall where we first learn that there are 7 spokes of the wheel and 7 ages. I imagine it has to be from an Aes Sedai, but maybe it is never actually explained in universe and they don't actually know. But if they do know, how they heck do they know that? I can only assume from some advanced 2nd age theory and experimentation.
Think some people have too much belief in Rafe improving the series. Hes already made it clear he'll change the story on a whim..and so far as not had a single case of women and men working together as equals...its was unless the women, even in the past, are listened too, then pretty much everyone dies. It's why I gave up on any hope this series is ever going to be any good, minus the youtube commentary on the series.
My earnest hope is that it gets the Ghostbuster treatment. Purge the memory and restart a few years later. Because so far this has been a masterclass in what not to do with an adaptation.
That's how the Aes Sedai of the 3rd age view the Breaking of the World in the TV show, not necessarily what actually happened. The imbalance between men and women is a fundamental point of conflict in the books until much much later and even to some extent up until the end of the last book
Sure, they should have made a distinction regarding the women's council and men's council attempt to balance the power dynamics in Edmonds field similar to like the books, but the fundamentals are the same
@@Echidna23Gaming the TV show is in the 4th age... Let's save our wonderful memories of light in the 3rd age
This series had so much potential to be amazing.
Sad what they did with it
Spoilers for one of the books (3?)
There’s a scene where one of our characters witnesses the White Tower ritual for gentling a man and the language that’s traditionally used. The Aes Sedai in the books already believed that what happened 3000 years before was due to the pride of men & that it was the sin of men that caused the breaking. I mean, RJ based the idea of the series on the idea what if men committed the original sin rather than Eve. When I see complaints about the line from Moiraine about the arrogance of men, I know folks aren’t that familiar with the basic themes of the books. I see complaints about the show being “woke”, but I see it as the show presenting the fundamentals of the story.
“This man, abandoned of the Light, has touched saidin, the male half of the True Source. Thus do we hold him. Most abominably has this man channeled the One Power, knowing that saidin is tainted by the Dark One, tainted for men’s pride, tainted for men’s sin. Thus do we chain him”
- page 592, The Dragon Reborn,
Also excellent video as always Lauren! You always make me analyze my assumptions about the books & the show and inspire new lines of thinking. This is exactly the kind of show content I love to see!
Really great comment
Thank you for the reminder!
but Lanfear opened the bore according to the books. So original sin was not because of a man according to RJ.
@@jonahdav9589 Lanfear wasnt the only one. Beidomon, a man, and other researchers were involved.
@@jonahdav9589 yes that was one sin, and maybe a closer allegory to Eve since she claimed to be seeking knowledge. But by the time of the books, the “sin” was the attempt to reseal the bore with only men. Which caused the backlash & breaking of the world. The common folks didn’t know about Lanfear and the opening of the bore. The villain of the myths was the dragon and men who could channel. The Aes Sedai especially tried to put distance between themselves and men to prevent the common people from associating channeling with the destruction of the breaking. RJ wrote a lot of subtlety into the story and explored the complexities of power, messaging, and the changing of stories over time and distance. He was definitely exploring a world where men had a disadvantage.
I tried to deny at the time that the lore had significantly changed but you've made it pretty clear that it does, even if not in everyway that critics have suggested. The 'Gawyn' script leak also suggests Ishamael's story has been changed. So they are playing free with the lore to some extent, though it seems in the service of adding flaws and drama to the characters and their arcs, and to make it less complicated for TV only viewers to follow (100 companions/Latra as Tamarlin Seat). With the short seasons and lack of interest by most viewers in lore, this kind of brief, on-the-nose writing might be the best we can expect.
I've discovered your channel recently, and i love these videos! Top notch content regarding WoT! Thank for the time you make into these works!
I'll be honest, i feel that this channel, with few others on YT and other places, is the only place where i can serenely discuss WoT, both books and tv adaptation, both in its merits and flaws, big or little that they are.
Because i really can't manage to stay in most places with angered fans, especially one that call me and other "apologists, defenders, Amazon payed, woke" etc etc. Like, the air is too heavy for me, dunno if i explained myself clearly.
And i'm talking as a person who usually is very, very prone to anger with adaptation; i mean, i was enraged with the Dark Tower movie adaptation, that to me is an example of bad adaptation.
I didn't feel this with WoT. The story wasn't the same, some flaws were there and some of them where quite substantial, but i felt the same emotion when i started the series with The Eye of the World. I liked some things in the show better than the books etc. and the more i think about it, the more i think i find easter eggs and references and so on, that to me gives me hopes of optimism for the series, giving it some time to shine.
I don't need a masterpiece, nor to outclass Game of Thrones or similar things.
I just want to see more people interested in the world of Robert Jordan, that starts reading the books (and its working) and talk about them and be emotioned like i was when i started a series that, at least for now where i arrived, is one of the best fantasy series i'm reading, one of my favourite.
And in the worst case, the books are there, completed, i will be able to come back to them anytime. Its not like GoT where, since we haven't got any book finale, our perception of the whole series is conditioned by the show ending.
So, to the people that rage against other people who like the show like me. Call me show apologist, coping guy, "too optimistic", darkfriend, "not a true fan", whatever. Do it, i will stand on my hill anyways.
Love this! I hope that you'll always feel welcome here! If you want to find more similarly minded WoT fans, I'd suggest joining my discord or joining TwitterOfTime on Twitter! Also, The Dusty Wheel here on YT is an awesome community of WoT book and show fans! I agree 100%. I just want more people to fall in love with Robert Jordan's world!
I kind of despise the fact that they dumbed down what the dragon reborn is for the audience. People are able to tell the difference between dragon and dragon reborn, they aren't morons who can't tell what the word reborn means. I KNOW what they were going for with the dragon being cyclical, but the title dragon is very specific to lews therrin and relational to Rand only in fairly unique circumstances. The male champion of light could be called the Taco reborn in the fourth age for all we know.
You give them the benefit of the doubt. You are too kind
Great video Lauren!!! I hope the writers see this and correct as needed. I enjoy the show, but some changes are just odd.
Great video, yours is the only WoT channel I tend to watch atm.
Great video
I honestly wasn’t very impressed with how they handled the cold open I felt like it was an unnecessary demonization of LTT when in my readings it seems like he was arrogant but a very skilled tactician and leader. The dynamic shift seems purposeful almost like they didn’t trust the audience to be able to comprehend some of the concepts. To be fair I’ve read the whole series several times so some of that understanding comes with that but I don’t like some of the corners they are cutting for “another turning of the wheel”
Honestly I am tired of the "another turning" excuse. If it's just another turning they might as well create their own story with different characters instead of making an adaptation of the books.
@@Haxerous spoilers…. Honestly I was kinda curious how they would handle it I always liked the flicker sections and the chapters that read with other lives it made it feel more real for me. But with that being said I think they could’ve done so much more and some of the changes don’t feel true to the story
LLT and Latra were both right, if for the wrong reasons. And they were also both wrong.
If even a single woman joined LTT and aided in sealing the Bore, both sides of the Power would have been tainted.
If LTT had waited even hours the forces of Light may have been overrun, or the Shadow could have found the Chodan Kal's access keys.
Neither side had any idea that the Dark One *could* taint the Power. Latra's concern was that an imperfect patch could rip the Bore completely open. And LTT's concern was that even if they had the Chodan Kal operational and destroyed the Dark One's armies, the Dark One would break out unless there was a patch.
I'm not sure both sides working together *could* have handled things better given the circumstances. The only way I see that it could of worked is if the Chodan Kal were recovered and used to win the war, and then they took the time to research the proper way to completely seal the Dark One's prison, without touching "him" with the One Power.
My understanding is that the big white book of bad art is not completely reliable ... what do you think?
I really enjoyed this so much. I really love the show, and I like how you have demonstrated that what might seem very inaccurate as a short snippet scene, or a few sentences in a scene, may actually be more accurate than we think at first, or may be a way of explaining some concepts through this medium.
It always seems like your video end a minute after they start as I'm always just enthralled in watching and surprised it is suddenly over. Thanks Lauren!
Thanks so much Koala! You're the best!
I personally take _most_ of the BWB (Big White Book of Bad Art) as "canon." There are certainly some inaccuracies, but I think the Strike at Shayol Ghul is also _mostly_ accurate to what RJ intended for the history of his world. Of course we'll never know for certain, but I think my assumptions in this video are "canon." What do you think?
@@UnravelingthePattern I really found it helpful the way you started by reminding us that there was a lot of war at the time of that cold open, and then brought it back around to it being quite real that the actual city was likely still untouched and so showing viewers that there had been this amazing technology and civilisation this way still fits canon.
I want to think more about the arrogance tho, as I have a few thoughts on this, some include spoilers around the arrogance of thinking a bore was a good idea to start with ...
I feel with the show that we are going to see some things from season 1 differently once we season 2, and on and on ... a bit like we did when reading the books ... 🤔
@Koala Sedai Agreed on that last statement. I actually think that Moiraine's views on "the arrogance" is in-part meant to be a reflection of her own arrogance at the end of S1 and her being "humbled" by The Man at the end of the season will play an important role in her character growth and her understanding of Rand/Lews Therin. My EP 8 Unraveled video will talk all about the mirroring between episodes 1 and 8, and this is a big part of that.
@@UnravelingthePattern can't wait for this. The longer since the show ended the more depth I keep finding. Have you listened to Ali and Gus break down their reactions to the show?
@@koalasedai yes, I love their show related episodes! And I chatted with them a lot about it at JordanCon too!
Thanks for this video. I've been bothered by the reference to Lews as 'Dragon Reborn'. He is the original Dragon and Rand his reincarnation. 7 turns of the wheel I'm assuming means civilization gets destroyed twice. First age is man developing from Ape to Homo Sapiens. Second is today's world of industrial, technological gains plus wars. Third is development after nearly destroying the plant to finding the Power, to creating a better world only to end in war again. 4th age is the Dragon Reborn and sealing the Dark One away again. 5th will see a rebirth of men and women using the power to heal the world and reintroducing universal education. 6th and 7th I'm not sure. Improving conditions, traveling around the planet, maybe finding survivors on those broken continents and reintroducing them to the world. And maybe the last age sees Man go into space? Optimistic I know. Then something happens, and the wheel starts a new first age. Will man repeat this history forever or does the wheel keep turning till man improves to no more wars, no more destruction?
Have you made the Wheel of Timelines Video you mentioned? Can’t seem to find it on the channel
I've made two so far. One is about the "beginning" and the First Age, the other is about The Age of Legends. They're in a playlist on my channel.
@@UnravelingthePattern thanks! Can’t wait for the one on the War and the Strike on Shayol Ghul. You make the best WOT Videos in terms of the right amount of Depth, Consiceness and Editing, big thumbs up!
Thank you!
Set aside the books and questions about adaptation. Was this a good scene? Did it build tension, set up stakes, show the consequences of choices?
I would say no. It's a lot of "tell" and zero of "show". The dialog and visuals don't establish a sense of urgency. The stakes that the two leads are arguing over are vague. There doesn't feel to be an impending threat that needs to be addressed. The scene doesn't make me understand why any of this is so important.
That's fair. But I've talked to one guy who never read the books and was sort of "meh" about the whole show until the big "future city" reveal at the end of this scene. That was when he finally said, "oh, this is cool!" and was intrigued enough to start caring about the show. There is a lot of "tell but don't fully tell" in this scene though, which isn't necessarily bad. That said, I agree with you that it's a pretty weak scene overall and doesn't add much. I would've loved way more "high stakes" tension.
@@UnravelingthePattern yeah the future city reveal was what they were leading up to and truly made new viewers sit up and take note. Let's leave this comment on a high note 👍🏾
@@UnravelingthePattern I think it's actually purposefully incomplete so they can slowly build upon it in future seasons.
As a non book reader having the scene show a futuristic looking world really peaked my interest, I was shocked and excited and if it looked all ruined by war I wouldn't have realised they once had a modern world that seems futuristic to us today.
It might have been too confusing for non book readers to explain it because they only had a few minutes to visually get the point across, so that's probably why they did it.
Also on a side note, I really love the costumes in this show in this seen and the forsaken it's just so realistic futuristic clothing and very sci-fi. Cool to see fantasy and sci-fi colide like this.
Don’t forget, as Rand tells Min towards the end of the series, he remembers being LTT, he remembers that he “grew arrogant, desperate.”
Good reminder! I still think it wasn't men's arrogance alone that caused the breaking. It was the arrogance of men and women and their inability to work together.
@@UnravelingthePattern agreed! Hence the series coming full circle and achieving balance between the sexes by the end. Thanks for the great content!
@@UnravelingthePattern You're right, but I think it's safe to say that the interpretations of the past 3000 years ago by the Aes Sedai and specifically the reds in the third age would promote and make sense of the idea that it was a failure primarily of the dragon and the male channelers when we know it's the fault of both since we know LTT's perspective from the books
I have a question or am asking for an opinion. I have only read 3 of the books so far. I got onto the books because of the series. But alit of the criticism about the series is that they think the men are weak. OTOH, IMO the 1st season of the series portrayed the women more disrespectful than EOTW BOOK. The second and third book seemed to give women more balance. Do you believe that Rand, Lan and the other men were portrayed as weak in the series?
I love how Rand essentially creates the prison the Bore will open up.
HEAVY SPOILERS
In my head cannon Lews Therin is a dragon reborn because we don't know what happened in the first age exactly and if there could have been an og dragon in one and in my mind there's only 1 real option. It stands to reason that there should be a dragon for every age and even if the first age had no channeling they are still bound to the wheel right? I also cant help but focus on the "third age by some" aspect and also Nakomi when I think about this. I kinda made a theory in my head that Nakomi and Rand are the only 2 Dragons that have reached final form, meaning that they have memories of 2 lives where one of them tainted the source, made a faulty prison and the other life had to fix it. Now they both are free from their duty to the pattern with gifts of seemingly instant manifestation of everything, and a new unrecognizable body. They will leave others to figure it out themselves as the creator wants but ultimately will help push it along in the same subtle way Nakomi did. I think if there was ever more WoT content written then we would 100% see a conversation where Rand talks to somebody the same way Nakomi talks to Aviendha.
I love that theory and believe it as well (related to Nakomi and Rand).
Breaking of the world can be used as an opening or ending of season 2.
Spoiler for book 2!
I would say they got quite a bit wrong. I’m still hung up on Loial not bloating into a black pus filled corpse when he’s knifed with the Shadar Logoth dagger. I’m giving Season 2 a fair shake but if something doesn’t change I’m probably hopping off the adaption train and just kicking it with the books. I won’t begrudge those who like it but the lore and characters are what I love about the story. You start breaking both those for whatever reason I’m out.
Excellent. Thank you
I always love your videos. When watching the show I liked and disliked this scene in almost equal measures and you managed to pinpoint the exact reasons why for me, so thank you for that.
thank you for this.
It's really clear to me that the whole arrogance thing is a setup for our understanding of the Breaking to be flipped on its head once we realize more of what was going on. Unreliable narrators and all that. It's a hallmark of WoT.
Book spoilers:
Rand's journey to understanding and making peace with LTT is a major part of his arc. To end on a high note, we need to start as low as possible. This is that.
That being said, LTT even admitted himself to being arrogant in the books, so it's not like they pulled it out of thin air. They're just playing with the truth to make us draw the conclusions they want, so we can be surprised when more nuance is revealed later. It's very Aes Sedai of them, I think 😉
I agree! The truth is, Moiraine at the end of S1 is in her terrible position because of her own arrogance. I think we're meant to draw those parallels. I'll discuss this more in my Ep 8 unraveled video!
Love your username btw!
@@UnravelingthePattern aw thank you! 😄
Just in case this may contain a spoiler.
Great video. I was devastated by how off-base the show was after 31 years of waiting for a quality adaptation to be made. The Lews Therin / Latra conversation and Ep 8s. "final battle" scenes were the proverbial straw that broke the camels back for me. By removing/changing these foundational moments, Rafe and his team have effectively removed themselves from any need or worry about "sticking to the story". This is now fully their story. Their telling of the Wheel. Season 2 will only disappoint, and if the show hasn't been canceled by season 3 then we can rest assured that what we thought was jarring in Season 1 will now be mind bogglingly different. Rand will probably be trapped in the tower, dressed in white, scrubbing pots while Egwene will look something more akin to Galadriel in Rings of Power.
I respect your opinion, and I agree with some of what you said, but I think Ep8 in particular was heavily affected by Barney Harris (Mat) leaving the show after Ep6 and Covid restrictions. Also, they've already greenlit season 3!
@@UnravelingthePattern I plan on watching Season 2, and my fingers are crossed that new Matt will work out. I have read good things about the actor and they did a great job visually matching him. Matt was my favorite character of the TV show tbh despite all his changes. Keep up the great videos!
@@redbeard365 Thanks! I am also very excited for S2 Mat. From what I hear he's more in-line with Mat from the books!
BOOK SPOILERS!
I think the decision to characterize Lews as arrogant in this early scene was actually a good thing. In the first half or so or the series you think Lews-Therin is just mad and only through having Rand (post-box) talk with him and learn things from him, do we get to see the whole story. I like the idea of Rand having a madman in his head he can't trust, but through cleansing Saidin and eventually veins of gold, Rand comes to understand Lews and redeem him/his perspective on the situation. I don't think this would be as effective if he wasn't shown at first to be insane
Good call. Though I feel that the EotW prologue does a much better job showing Lews Therin's insanity. I can't wait to see that moment on screen!
@@UnravelingthePattern yeah I agree, I would love to see it too, hopefully in s2!! But I think it's just so jarring for new readers they decided to save it to later.
Exactly! Not everything needs to be explained, but leaving space for another cold open or two where Rand discovers Lews Therin's motivations will let us shift our perspectives as an audience the way he eventually does.
@@jeannekalvar9504 yeah Lews-Therin/Rand was my favorite dynamic throughout the series
I find you are giving the show team way too much credit. It'd all well and good to fill out details later but the season as a single whole doesn't make sense as a single entity. The writing is lazy, unoriginal and uninspired. I knew we were in trouble over a year before release when they changed "save the world and destroy it" to "save the world or destroy it" Not a great start for the best series of books since tolken. I will watch season 2 but if it doesn't improve, I'm out.
One thought on the unreliable narration: we know they aren't afraid to give direct unreliable narration with the camera and script. It's possible that what we're seeing in this cold open is how the modern day Aes Sedai understand the history, but that it's a distorted version of the true events. If that's the case then we would expect an alternate of this scene at some point, likely from Rand's POV. Too early to tell if that's where they're going.
That would definitely subvert my expectations.
I sorta disagree. I think they were taking LTT's own recount of the scene from the books, alongside the fact that the only canonical explanation of the AoL war politics was itself unreliable narration, by historian who admitted they were at least in part guessing.
Lol no it's a straight up flashback. We aren't seeing someone recount the events.
I apologize for the incoherent of the last sentence in my longer comment, it posted accidentally before I could correct it and I cannot seem to find a way to edit it. Basically, I was saying that I thought the change was meant to make the male Aes Sedai look worse, and the female Aes Sedai look better.
I think that's what they want us to think for now, but I'm guessing they will show us more backstory which will put things into context later and reveal that arrogance of men AND women is what led to the downfall
@@UnravelingthePattern exactly my thoughts! From the very 1st episode with Liandrin's and Moiraine's speeches, they're setting us on the path of unreliable narration and judgment. This scene leaves a lot out, hinting to so much more, thus subtly directing our judgment. Book readers should understand this more than anyone else imo! It reminds me of Rick Riordan's recent blog saying that however many times fans read the books, if they're sh**ing on the recent casting, they failed to understand the lessons of his books.
I don't know, to be lews therin leading the companions to strike at shayol ghul was always at least partly his arrogance and his unwillingness to reach for the balance at the heart of the series's themes. yes, latra posae led the female aes sedai to reject the plan, but he chose to still go forward with it without looking to compromise.
There really isn't much that isn't inaccurate about the TV series
That's a lot of negatives/double negatives. I think you're saying, there is much that is accurate about the TV series, right? j/k I get what you're saying. I talk about a lot of these changes/inaccuracies in all of my videos, but in the end I'm hopeful that the show will succeed because I want more Wheel of Time!
@@UnravelingthePattern That is exactly not what im not saying! :P jk Personally i was holding on to hope for a long time until I had some time to digest everything and eventually concluded that there was no way for my love of the books not to be forever tarnished outside of dismissing the show entirely; so, it's done for me. I hope you are able to still enjoy further episodes of it, but i will never watch another.
@@tbhockeyboy How succinctly put. Agreed.
The more I hear about how the TV series is progressing, the less interesting it sounds.
Some of the things you said i can agree with, BUT, you have one thing that you either didn't notice or just ignored. This opening makes it clear that this show has taken the one power and made it a one power, meaning there are no two sides of the power. Yes i know Latra uses the word Saidin in the old tongue, but the subtitles say 'the power'. Also from the first episode it is clear that the power is none binary...
One more thing, why would the world think that the dragon reborn can be a woman? It's obvious that he can ONLY be a man, as Saidin id the tainted side of the power, saidin was the power used by the dargon to seal the bore, only if lews therins first plan was executed and then backfired it would be possible for the next dragon to be woman, as by following Lews therin's plan saidar could have been affected tainted and could drive the female channelers mad and the breaking would be done by the female Aes sedai...or that the dark one would taint both of them and then the world would have been destroyed a
End of story... i can accept Moiraine's speach at the begining as after 3000 years knowledge was lost and a lot of things were lost in time, but the opening of ep8 isn't the same, it is a flash back, and that scene is a flash back, and i was expecting Saidin and Saidar more explained. They should have started the show with the same prolog imo, it was just perfect to begin tge story, makes you understand the stakes from the very start, instead we got the worst possible opening scene for the show.
Regarding the dragon reborn. As you said technically Lews Therin Talamon is also the dragon reborn, but by the time he is born again as Lews therin rhe ages have forgotten this fact so he is called just the dragon.
Both halves of the Power are in the show, it just hasn't been explained yet. Also, the Dragon is a man, it is Rand, so that whole "it could be a woman" thing is irrelevant.
Potential spoiler:
Latra didn't have a plan as the Choedan Kal were lost in territory overrun by the Shadow. Unless my recollection fails me
you are correct. The plan was to finish and use the choedan kal to erect a barrier around the bore to buy time so they could figure out something else. But then the Choedan Kal access keys were lost in the shadow held lands. The light sent agents to recover them, but they were all intercepted by the Shadow so they weren't getting them back.
Lews went along with that plan despite having misgivings until it became clear they couldn't rely on getting the access keys. Then he pushed for his idea again and was again shot down and it became clear no women would join him.
So to him, (and probably rightly so) It was essentially....take a gamble on his plan or sit back and wait until the shadow wins....or sit back and wait until the shadow stumbles onto the access keys and wins even faster.
She had a plan, it just didn't work out because of that..I'll explain that more in my Wheel of Timelines video.
ALL SPOILERS
Reverse nitpick. Her plan was to recover them and use them. I would say both plans were equally desperate. There is no doubt that her plan had far lower odds of destroying the entire Pattern.
Prior to losing the Choedan Kal, however, LTT arguably *was* being overly proud. Their argument over this lasted a while, and it seems most mathematically sensible that his plan was originally voted on before the Choedan Kal were taken away. And instead of going along with LPD until they were lost, he clearly took actions that led to the breaking of the Aes Sedai, after losing a (close) vote on the matter. Even LTT admits to this in the books.
Arguably (huge hypothetical spoilers) what they were both missing is that it is the Dragon that is the key to destroying the pattern and/or winning the battles. The Dark One doesn't really fight to win, he fights to turn the Dragon. All those possible worlds where it appears the Dark One was victorious (tGH), it was actually Ishamael claiming victory. The Dark One wins in all worlds if he wins in one world, but that only happens if he wins *absolutely*. Why? Because the Dark One loses in all worlds if he loses in one world. That was meant to seem a paradox, but it is strangely valid modal logic.
@@Novagenesis I get your point. But if the Shadow had taken control of the CK, the war would have most likely been over. LTT's plan with all it's blowback can be said to have saved Pattern. The world can recover from a Breaking (as it likely had in past ages) but not from the DO's victory
@@robinirie98 Remember, LTT's pride was from *before* the CK were even designed and built. He lost a vote then, and wouldn't let it drop.
Through most of the time he was complaining and trying to turn people to his side after losing the vote, his plan was simply the riskiest plan on the table. He only took action after the CK were lost, but all that was after the fateful concord was built against him when he insisted on rejecting the will of the Hall and the majority vote.
It'll be awesome if the show reveals a deeper respect for the lore, but after seeing how they handled Rand, Mat, and Perrin, I'm not getting my hopes up.
I actually don’t mind the little changes too much. A lot of them do make sense for tv. Like, nothing has hit me the wrong way like Dorne In the Game of Thrones tv show… so I’m good
Yeah, some of my complaints are nitpicky for sure... But I am hopeful that they'll give us more backstory for the AoL and will fill in some of these confusing gaps over time.
Hey, which one old language they are speaking..pkease tell me
It's worth noting that Lews Therin himself in the Dragonmount prologue reflected on his actions arising from his pride and arrogance, so it's not too much of a stretch for others to see it as even more so, even if it was a desperate attempt.
Great point!
Rand says the same post VoG...
It seems unlikely that the flashback ends up being an unreliable narrator. Flashbacks like that are supposed to reveal what actually happened.
Yes, but it didn't reveal the whole picture. There's more to learn I think.
Love it!!
It wasn't arrogance it was a last ditch effort literally last ditch this was it all or nothing
They had an opportunity to turn the prologue from the Eye of the World into the greatest cold open for the season finale. Swing and a miss.
There's still time!
For some reason I can't tap to get notifications for your videos. When I type my request as all the message request contains invalid argument.
Oh no! That's super weird. Are you using a phone app? You might need to update the CZcams app?
Thanks, I'll try that.
I think that even the title "Dragon" and "Dragon Reborn" were unique to the books turning of those ages. After the Bore is sealed back up, by the time the world rebuilds to an "Age of Legends" state, different titles might be used when the Dark One's prison is discovered. In the book, Meirin Sedai says she has discovered a "new power", which implies by that time that everyone had forgotten everything about the Dark One.
Which would mean that calling Lews "Dragon Reborn" make even less sense.
Yeah, honestly that feels like a stupid "executive" decision to call Lews Therin the "Dragon Reborn".
I'm tired of waiting for season 2 to come out! Seriously they finished filming in 2021? So why are they taking so long to share with us..if you agree.. say it here!
Agree completely on the lack of nuance / context for the Lews Therin / Latra Posae scene. BTW here is a fan-made version of the scene where they just edited the subtitles (you have to turn them on in CZcams yourself) and it makes the scene fit the true lore MUCH better.
Given they’re speaking the old tongue and there are subtitles anyway, I wish / wonder if Amazon could actually tweak the official version to be more like this one!
czcams.com/video/t6-naltgX3s/video.htmlsi=_kpFjsEEudHpaBTW
Cool! Thanks for sharing!
2:32 well the city in he shot could be accurate. If the world doesn’t know war, then they don’t need to protect their cities. In the background of this scene is a massive wall, in perspective and compared with the tall buildings this wall is MASSIVE. it suggests that the other side of the wall is a dangerous place. If this is is the home base of the world’s most powerful channeller and leader then it’s plausible that this city in the scene is one of the last standing cities.
Wait, wait, wait.
It's easier to count where Judkins and company got something right. He's made more changes in just the first volume of WoT then Peter Jackson made in the entire LotR saga. There seems less connection between Jordan and Judkins then there is between the movie Forbidden Planet and Shakespeare's The Tempest (off of which that film was actually based). I've tried to be forgiving because of the slew if Covid related issues that plagued that first season. If the next season isn't significantly better ( meaning much more connected to the original work) I'll drop it like a diseased corpse and find entertainment somewhere else.
Already dropped it. From what I’ve heard, the second season is only doubling down on changes. I haven’t even been looking for details for season 2 either. Stuff just pops up on my timeline. It’s just not worth it. Sad that this show will be the only “Wheel of Time” some people will know.
second season trailers, Perrin wields a sword. Hammer or axe lore struggle. Nah. Rafe is an unfaithful to source material show runner who out of hubris thinks he knows better then the actual author. Fire Rafe!
NO BOOK SPOILERS PAST EOTW PROLOGUE
Re: whether saidar would've also been Tainted, the answer is yes. Jordan answered this question in interviews!
As far as Latra being called Tamyrlin, I have a couple of thoughts: 1. We know he stopped being Tamyrlin at some point before the creation of dragonmount because Ishamael says "Once you wore the ring of Tamyrlin." So it may be that it is not a lifetime appointment, and I see nothing inconsistent about his no longer being Tamyrlin by the time he and Latra have this convo. 2. Narratively, it puts LTT and LPD on equal footing, which I suspect is the real reason. 3. If you listen carefully he actually says Amyrlin in the OT and it's translated as Tamyrlin Seat.
Also it was absolutely arrogant for him to continue with his plan without the support of women or even the full contingent of male channelers. He was nearly literally half assing it. Less than half, since he didn't even have all of the men, and they couldn't link.
These are all really good thoughts and I considered bringing them up, but some of them didn't occur to me until after I had written and recorded my script and was halfway done with editing, haha. I might need to do a part 2!😅
@@UnravelingthePattern yay, more videos of yours!
Both LTT & "Rand post VoG" confirmed that it was arrogance, so...
I believe Lews is a reborn First Age dragon.
I feel that is the only way for them calling him the dragon reborn would work, I feel that if they knew about a previous turning of the wheel's dragon, they would have more knowledge of what's to come
While I'm fine with this for the show, it just isn't 100% accurate to what RJ set up. The Dragon is a "Champion of the Light" and is not necessarily the "savior" or hero of every Age.
I just wish they didn't call him the dragon reborn... it is just silly to me.
My guess is higher ups wanted it changed, but it's just real stupid thing to change
Agreed. It's one of the more silly/unecessary changes.
@@UnravelingthePattern I think this is one of those chances that's based in the producers assuming the audience is stupid. Like changing the name of Theon Greyjoy's sister from Asha to Yara, because they already had a character named Osha and obviously fans are too dumb to tell the difference between two characters with similar names.
The change itself doesn't really piss me off, but I do get irritated when the purpose of a change like that seems solely based in the assumption that the audience is stupid.
3k isn't the present story around 1k 3rd age? Did the age of breaking last for 2k years?
The Third Age started after the breaking, about 3,400 years before Rand's birth. The books start in 998 NE of the Third Age, but "NE" refers to the third calendar from the third Age. There were about 2500 years of history in the 3rd Age before that, but it was tracked in other calendars.
I kind of disagree with your conclusion that the show was only blaming the breaking of the world on Lews. IMO, that scene in the show shows an arrogance or intransigence on both Lews and Latri Posea
I'm sorry but that really is not a nitpick about who was Tamrilyn at the time. It is there. In the books. Call me a book cloak. I don't care. That's the little things that people do not like. It drives probably half the book lovers away from the show. I can't even watch it a third time because the interest is not there. I watched twice to see if I wasn't seeing things correctly the first time. I read or listened to the books at least 40 or more times depending on the book. AMOL only about 10 times now. I took two years off.
Sorry, but actually (n I read ALL of the books only at least 20x except for NS) it is NOT "there" who was Tamyrlin by that time. We only know that LTT WAS at one point, but since he was also General of the entire Forces of the Light, it is most probable that he WAS NOT Tamyrlin anymore by that time...
@@questionsroxelane3643 There was no "Tamyrlin" in the books, as a titled that any character possessed. There was an ITEM, called the "Ring of Tamyrlin" that was won presumably by the ruler of the Aes Sedai.
That's what pisses me off about this, it's clear that's where the modern Aes Sedai got the Amrylin Seat from, and that makes sense to develop when you're hundreds or thousands of years separated from the Age of Legends after the Breaking of the World. This is another change where the audience is being treated like they're stupid by the writers. Because It would just be too confusing to have the modern title named after a ring from the past, it obviously have to be based in a previous title with just one letter dropped from the name. Ugh.
The whole season was a shitshow and a slap in the face to anyone who enjoyed the books. I still find myself yelling WHERE THE FUCK IS CAEMLYN when people try to tell me that it wasn't that bad. I'm sick of hearing people say that things needed to be changed because there was too much content, 3/4 of the series is descriptions of dresses, trees and landscape, and they couldn't even get that fucking right.
I knew the series was fucked when that fuckwit Rafe said he didn't want to do a coming of age story and aged up the characters. Half of the interactions and outcomes only happen because the characters are going through their coming of age cycle.
They change so many small details that the series is actually doomed.
TWoT is intricate and you can see the ripples of actions within the series, like the use of balefire unravels the pattern, the removal of core small details unravels the whole plot. It's best not to pay any attention to it anymore for it is a mockery and even the dark one alludes to why you shouldn't pull this bullshit when he shows Rand a world without the dark ones influence.
Another awesome video.
The changes made for the show rub me the wrong way. Watching these videos help validate those feelings.
Nah, if they'd only titled it something else instead of WOT, it would've been better. Like what Sanderson said, "a different age or turning of the Wheel." Just disappointed with the 2 seasons.
Confession time. I like the show (I think it’s a much better show and adaptation than Legend of the Seeker or Shadowhunters) but the divide in the fandom is giving me serious Last Jedi vibes. Haters swarm all mentions of the show on social media and mass downvote and attack anything related to it saying “I thought we all collectively agreed the show did not happen” whenever people try to talk about it anywhere.
Honestly when I started my own channel and I wanted to make reviews of the books, since it’s one of my favorite series, I’ve felt very discouraged because of wanting to be honest about my feelings on the show, even if the video isn’t about the show.
It’s because of this that I seriously appreciate people like you that just choose to be honest and not just shock and awe to make a point or express an opinion and trying to force it on others.
if I may, is it fair to the character of Perrin in the books that Rafe has him married, has him kill his pregnant wife, mope after Egwene, have his whitecloak scenes taken from him by Egwene, and then in season 2 trailers, wielding a sword. Axe or hammer? nah, that lore struggle is cut because Rafe likely has not even read the books as he claims. Rand's scenes taken from him by tower drop outs, good grief. 1000+ too many changes. Lewis Therin not the leader of the Aes Sedai as he was in the books. Lewis Therin causes the breaking? Total plot change. Matt a dour thief who steals from his own friends and betrays them. Dragon Reborn can be a women? This is not The Wheel of Time but a hate you letter to the fans.
there changes are why I could not watch the show - to many deviations from the book in key ways.
Lews Therin's flashback in episode 8 is only one flashback. To me, it is important to see all flashback moments and piece them together like a puzzle. Just relying on one flashback is not good as we do not know what really happened and what did happen beyond the walls of the city. The conversation and argument felt that Latra knew Lews is right in the matter and reluctantly allowed him and his companions to cage the Dark One. For I believe that beyond the walls, the Dark One's forces are already wreaking havoc, causing immense casualties and suffering in the process. Lews, in this scene, is under pressure that he needs to do something to stop the Dark One. It is like how one would feel if their purpose in life is to defeat the literal devil (Satan) of the universe. I might be wrong in my opinions and like to see how the story moves forward in Season 2.
Book and Show Spoilers
Lews Therin not being the leader of the Aes Sedai could be put down to him once having been the leader but having to step aside from that position when he became the commander in chief of the armies of the light. Eisenhower had a full time job during World War 2 being in charge of the allied militaries fighting in Europe. Can you imagine him also having to run the US at the same time? As for the impression that Lews Therin was an arrogant fool who doomed the world I'm hoping there will be more flash backs that fill in more detains that give context to his decision. I think one of the problems book readers have is that we are looking at Season 1 with all the knowledge of 13 books etc. How much did we know after reading book 1? How much of what we did know turned out to be not 100% accurate. Lastly the cold open shows that the charactersare not always right. Latra thought Lews was arrogant for going against the Dark One with 99 trained companions. Yet another Aes Sedai thinks its perfectly fine for an untrained Rand to try the same thing with only her and no 99 companions. Lastly thank you for the deep dive. it was well put together and informative.
Thank you! I agree with all of your thoughts, and I agree that Lews Therin probably wasn't the "First Among Servants" at the time of the sealing of the Bore. Elan Morin mentions this when he tells him that he was "Once the First among Servants and sat on the High Seat." Implying that he was no longer those things during the end of the War of the Shadow. Still, there is no mention of Latra being "Tamyrlin Seat" or even First Among Servants in RJ's history. I'm okay with this change, but it isn't exactly accurate, which is why I say it's a nit-pick.
@@UnravelingthePattern I can't call her being Tamyrlin as inaccurate either since we simply do not know who was!!! It's simply "filling a blank" with someone plausible and whom we actually know.
THAT!!! 👆👆👆 You summed exactly my thoughts each time ppl complain about that scene!!!
Didn't they learn yet from a book so full of unreliable narration that they should keep their judgement until they actually know the full picture?
And when they say that the scene is useless, how many times, upon a reread, do we discover a hidden gem thrown nearly as an offhand comment buried in a wall of description, and we're like "OMG he planted THAT so many books ago!!!"?!? But no, if they don't remember and or it was not written black on white, it must not be counted as Lore... 🙄🤦
Simple Answer: Yes
I think the dumbest part of the show has to be calling Lews the Dragon Reborn, I hope they explain it in a later season or something
Love the books. Hate the show. I will not watch S2. Good video
Regarding Dragon vs. Dragon Reborn, to me it's rather inconsequential to the forward momentum of the story, and it's used in the show to reinforce the cyclical nature of the wheel, without having to get deep into metaphysics of memories being lost by the next turn of the same age.
Yeah, for sure. For you and many of us, it's just not a big deal and doesn't really make a big difference. But to some it's like a major complaint! I try to share a little of both sides without being to harsh to the show and the writers. I hope I did that here.
But that's the biggest problem tho, no one cares about some small inaccuracy, but when it's not 1,2 or even 10, but the whole show consists of small or not so small inaccuracies, then every single one of them starts being annoying
How would Latra have known that the D-O would ruin the male half of the ONE Power... No.. They obviously went to cage the Dark One cause unlike the Nice futuristic city.. It's my understanding that when Lews went after him the shadow was already at war with the Light and winning probably right? But thry make it seem Lews went after him merely as a matter of pride. Na fam, were talkin the leader of the Light here, tsk Tsk tsk. HOLLYWOOD always wants to add their shady ass POV lol
Yeah, I'm hoping they give us more backstory to clarify some of this.
wb lauren
When an age has passed all that occurs in that age fades to myth then to legend and eventually it fades all together when the age that gave it birth comes again. If that is the case, Then why the fuck did they call lews Therin the dragon reborn?? Even if this is a new cycle all that occurred in the 2nd age the age of heroes would have been forgotten and thus the name dragon And the man who earned it to would be too. So he should not be called the dragon reborn and just the dragon. While rand is the dragon report because he is the dragon, Reborn into the body of another man
Yeah, it's weird. I wish they hadn't called him that
As someone who studied script writing and has had to deal with producers and executives and understands how their minds work, It's clear to me the purpose of this decision. They do not believe audiences are smart enough to connect the dragon with the dragon reborn. So they make it clear that they have to call it the dragon reborn said people can make that connection.
It's why they had perrin killing show created wife, Because executives did not believe audiences would be able to understand a character not wanting to hurt people and kill people without seeing what cause that.
What I really did not like was them making Nyneave and Egwene Ta'veran, with Nyneave It actually kind of works but that is only because she actively fights against the fact the fact that she has put herself on the path of becoming a yellow, Her fighting against the decisions she's making and her own path in life is reminiscent of rand rand Mat and perrins Frustrations with and struggles against their own ta'veranness, Nyneaves reluctance Translates well to that. However, Egwene being a Ta'veran Weakens her character to an incredible degree, Within the books she is so headstrong and is and focus on her desires, She's so wilful that at times she defies a ta'verans pull, She does this quite often actually. Answer me that tells of a person who actively defies the will of the wheel of time itself, I even interpreted her death as the wheel essentially cutting her out of the story and out of fate because of how much she has changed things. But if you make her Ta'veran You simply make her a puppet of the wheel as she never defies or fights against the path she is on, She would lack agency and would rarely find yourself struggling struggling against her own her own Forced upon fate
That was all done in voice to text while I was driving I do apologize for some of the weird grammatical choices
@@Taveren no worries! I appreciate the comments!
I suspect the show wrote LTT to have voluntarily given up the political position of Tamyrlin in order to focus on the War as the General of the Forces of the Light. The world still needed political leadership. It would be a very noble decision by LTT
I like this idea! To be fair, Elan told him that he was "once the First among Servants and sat on the High Seat." So it's possible he wasn't actually the leader of the Aes Sedai at the end of the War of the Shadow. But it doesn't say anything about Latra being "Tamyrlin Seat" or the "Watcher of the Flame" in RJ's history either.
The cold open in this was where the season broke me tbh mate, The steppin stuff blew my mind with it's irrelevance and time wasting but when this cold open happened, after everything else that was broken, my mind went nuclear lol. You are being very generous sir, **SPOILERS FOR AOL STUFF** Correct me if i'm wrong but did they not actually try Latras plan with the Cheoden Kal nukes first, and the Forsaken almost take it over and destroy the world..? After which Lews was like ok lets do my plan, the women refused to help - hence the patch job and the counterstroke it's reasonable to surmise. This show leaves all the context out and you cannot tell me that's not deliberate. It is a ridiculous, unnecessary lore break designed to cement the theme of men being redundant and useless and incompetent the entire season. I don't know if that's the aim, I can only be honest about how it comes across. This is a great video though dude, carry on :-)
After a lot of thought, my opinion about "the power could be corrupted" was to simplify merging what really happened with LPD's fear that the Pattern would be destroyed. That's what you do when you have a complicated past that doesn't even show up in the books (Strike at Shayul Ghul) and want to get the feeling of it right for the show viewers.
We also have to remember (as I mentioned elsewhere), there are signs of LTT being at fault for the rift between the Aes Sedai! His pride (by his own admission) was a major fault.
Let's look at the timeline. He lost the vote to strike at Shayul Ghul. The winners of the vote start building the Choedan Kal, as for some reason the Aes Sedai start to fall apart over that vote. The possible only reason that makes sense is because LTT would not drop it. He was meeting with people trying to get them to betray the majority of the Aes Sedai and do it his way.
So if two newly-finished Sa'angreal had their keys stolen while the Aes Sedai are falling apart split by gender, what would an honest historian blame for those keys being lost? The lack of cohesion and stability within the Hall!
We know that the Choedan Kal would not have worked, and the pattern worked everything out... but when he first pitched the plan, *they weren't that desperate yet*, they simply concluded that they were going to eventually lose if they didn't do something. And in his pride, he offered up the riskiest possible option when other options (and time) were still on the table.
It’s explicitly mentioned in the SASG that the territories with the keys had been lost, and that the CK had already been completed. They just had never USED them for fear of how strong those sa’angreal were. They didn’t know what would happen once activated. Very akin to Oppenheimer and the firing of the first atom bomb. They didn’t know if it would crack open the planet or not.
LTT in SASG states they’re losing, and badly, in the war of attrition the DO had decided on. The only reason they were losing and hadn’t lost is the infighting between the Chosen, as a general rule, and their constant competition to be named Nae’bliss.
tbh It seems many things have been altered to my mind. Uneccesary changes seems to be Rafe's theme song at times... You have more confidence in the show runner than I do. I have real doubts about how he will bring the story forward now. I also doubt the balance between the sexes that is so prevalent in the books will be pushed at all. They are using a very lazy broad excuse to cover their reasoning for any ande all changes. "Its an adaptation" only works so far. Lots of the changes being made, make zero sense at all.
Well, it's only season 1. We have 14 books and thousands of years of history. There's still time to do a lot!
Rafe needs to be fired. As someone who started reading the books because of the show, once you read the books you realize how terrible the show is.
Just stick with the books. It’s awesome that you read them because of the show. No incompetent idiot with an agenda can ruin the books that are already written.
I don’t have a problem with calling LTT the “Dragon reborn“ because I think that for non-book readers, this emphasizes how cyclical the nature of the world in the books is. And, in fact, the Dragon *is* born/reborn multiple times even in the single turn of a Wheel. Even in the current turn of the Wheel, do we know that there was no Dragon in the first Age? Someone who fought the Dark One toward the end of that Age and helped usher in the Paradise-like Age of Legends.
My bigger problem, and one I see being very difficult to course correct, is that, even though we are directly seeing LTT and his world at that time (as opposed to listening to an unreliable narrator), we are getting no sense of his desperation, or the fact that this is actually a Hail Mary plan.
We are also not getting any indication that the women had their own plan, which became impossible to implement because they failed to guard the Keys and let them fall into the hands of the Dark One’s minions, and they could not offer any other plan to counter what LTT desperately thought they had to do.
You could quote Moraine here in regard to the women as well: “The arrogance.”
All of that was missing and I honestly don’t think we’re ever going to get that version, and I don’t like the fact that non-book readers are left with that much of a negative view toward LTT. And while I have a little patience with all those who complain about the diversity in the cast, or that it’s being “too woke,“ I do think in this instance the change was made specifically to make the men at the end of the age of legends look worse and the women I said I look better.
I don't think you're wrong, though I believe it was purposefully so, in order to slowly, season by season, make us SEE not only the unreliable narrator, but that WE may misinterpret things if we do not have a full picture. In other words, I think they're precisely on the track to show us that early judgment is inadequate...
Outstanding job.....Yeah, they broke the Lore for no good reason, when they could have continued along the correct path in later cold opens & bonus content.... (Think "the strike" in a bonus content animated form done after the access keys are lost)........They could have told the whole story in animated bonus content that came out in the 3-4 months leading up to the seasons premiers.......What a waste.......ijs.......Looking forward to your next video.....
My guess is that they'll continue sharing more as the show progresses. I don't think this is all of the Age of Legends that we'll see. I'm hopeful we get more and that it helps clarify the lore, rather than continue to change it.
@@UnravelingthePattern I hope they do
So baffling that people can still be in such a state of denial and go to such extreme lengths to make sense of and justify all the absurdities. Not only that but then go on to insist with confidence that "they are going to fill in the gaps and make it make sense". You beclown yourself with such a ridiculous claim. Cant wait for the moment when all of you are forced to eat your words. I just hope you have the guts to do it openly and publicly on your channel.
😘
I was impressed with the explanation of the history, pointed out a lot of the things the show got wrong. But if they still support the show after the first season they don't care how many changes are made to the story/lore. Personally, the show was a big let down. Completely misunderstood what the books were about, did not pay homage to the source material.
@@ddub5978 "did not pay homage" is an understatement. They literally rewrote the source material, in most cases simply to suit their personal arbitrary and ideological whims. This is undeniable. Making -Hillary Clinton- I mean Latra Posae Decume the Tamyrlin instead of Lews just one quick small example of many.
@@UnravelingthePattern That being said... Overall still like your content. I think you are more genuine than most of the apologists 😘
Well this is Rafe you're talking about. An inherent bias to make any cis genedered bloke look either bad or a wimp. Changing the series was a given. It has to cut out major storylines to fit into the projcted timeline, and that comes at a cost. Corrupting the lore to such an extent has been pretty shocking. Male arrogance is a theme that's running through the series. Not so in the books where male & female are both victims and villains in equal amount.
SPOiLERS...
There's a world of difference between the lore of the strike being one of desparation, and one of it being preemptive arrogance. They had intel of the forsaken being together. It was an all or nothing last gasp. Desume was arguably the one being arrogant in withdrawing female support.
Unreliable narrator is being used as much as a crutch than as a reasoning for the storyline. It's fairly weak in that. I hope that S2 in many ways redeems itself in lore and storyline. Of the Aiel especially. Not holding much hope though.
As for this cold open. I really wish that it was the opener for s1 ep1.
I've not watched any of this show, but my roomates did. Consider any discussion in my thread to be spoilers. I have questions, and they need answers.
Does Perrin seriously murder his WIFE in the first episode? Does Egwene actually get burned out, then magically get her powers back as if the creator stretched forth a merciful hand and decided to care?
WHAT IS GOING ON??
@@randalthor2859 1) Yes but it's an accident, not murder
2) No. It's Nynaeve that gets (nearly) burned out. Egwene then Heals her from the brink of death. In the show it also seems that they've simplified burning out so that it always kills you, there's no surviving but being severed.
@@randalthor2859 yes and no.
Spoilers
Perrin kills his wife ep 1. By episode 8 it is revealed that Perrin has always pined for Egwene. Let that sink in.
Egwene doesn't get healed from stilling. She either heals stilling of or resurrects Nyneave. After Nyneave sacrificed herself to save Egwene from an idiot who somehow overchanneled everyone while linked.
@@randalthor2859 I mean, the show has some big changes for sure, but you should probably watch it.
This comment is a good example of why people should watch the show themselves and not trust what they read on the internet. You kind of get it, but you also misinterpreted many things from the show. Perrin was not "always pining for Egwene," he had a small crush on her before he married Laila. That's it. I explain this in greater detail in my Ep 7 explained video.
Nynaeve was never stilled. This is simply false information. I suppose you meant "burned out" but she wasn't that either. Yes, it was stupid that the show made it seem like she was dead, but she wasn't.