Well, I even have HBO (Max) and I still watch in on YT, because that's where most of the stuff I watch is. It's great that the important part is here and that it can get to so many people.
One of the biggest problems with the "anyone can visit it" argument is that many of them are not meant to just be visited. Many of the idols of deities from Asian countries were stolen from active worship. They would absolutely be put back into worship the minute they were returned. Many Native dresses and artifacts are still used ceremonially. These are not "history" - they were in use in the modern day.
Another Argument, A Nigerian schoolkid learning about their country's history probably can't afford to do a Pan-european roadtrip to various museums with expensive entrance fees just to see the Benin Bronzes in their near entirety.
On top of cost there’s also visa issues. I’m not sure the situation for a Nigerian going to the UK, but it can often be very difficult for people from the Global South to even be approved for tourist visas to North America and Europe. I have a Brazilian friend who was denied a tourist visa to the US because despite being enrolled in university in Brazil, just by virtue of being a young unmarried man he was deemed to be a high risk for overstaying a visa. So even if you have the money to travel across the globe to see your country’s cultural treasures, you can still be denied a visa to even enter the country
Exactly. Although the opposite is true paradoxically ... in Italy in the Uffizi Gallery in Firenze the statue of David one admires outside is a copy, the real one, smaller is inside protected from the weather and believe me the Louvre ain't got nothing on Italian museums for tourist wait lines. The Egyptian collection in the Berlin museum to be fair goes on tour periodically ... hail Schlieimann looter of Troy. This is a digression from your very good point btw but I couldn't resist. To support your argument though, in the Toronto Museum there are several totem poles belonging the Haida which if returned would indeed be used as part of their culture of potlach and spirit animals.
your english is really bad or you can't make a point well. are they not history or WERE they in use? if they WERE in use as you said, then thats not being in use in the modern day. its like saying you used to use something then saying you use it every day. then why say used to? so same question to you, are you just not capable of speaking properly or do you not really have a point to make? either way id say your intellect is lacking to the extent that maybe you should just stfu and keep your ignorance to yourself.
I love how the quote "if we said yes to one you'd soon find the British museum empty" is literally just them going mask off and saying "we won't give any of it back because we want money"
@@mynamesnotadam nothing is ever technically free. The museum makes money somehow, otherwise it wouldn't stay open. There's got to be some sort of money incentive for them otherwise they wouldn't keep something that unnecessarily wastes funds.
@himarisuzuki5208 I'm no expert in its funding, but you can become a member and pay a membership, donate money, use its over priced cafe, some exhibitions charge I think. But it's main source I would be the goverment funding. Maybe. I don't do their finances. Either way a lot of museums are free and it's because they provide a function which is to educate and exhibit the story
I think it's about trust that artifacts will stay untouched and not in private hands. But obviously it doesn't make it ethical to limit access or even lending rights.
@@qwertyuiopzxcfgh I'd care about someone other than myself. But if I did I'd have to care about even more people in the future. Capitalism: Bad people do bad things, and when they are rich they pay people to tell everyone else it was for the good of all.
@@HighFiveTheHorizon Honestly, uncaringness and imperial atitudes aside, *some* of the removals for archiving may have even made sense at the time, but the situation *now* is more important than blame. Wherever the fault lies, the question is what can be done *now.* Even innocent motives originally, or dodging blame, doesn't have much to do with where something belongs *now.*
That’s one of the most frustrating parts of this. In playing “World Heritage Curator” the British Museum and similar institutions are missing the opportunity to focus solely on their own heritage
"no one saw that man as significant" made me immediately cry. As a Hindu and Indian born in the US, this is a deeply painful subject, and John Oliver (as always) covered it so well. Thank you for advocating for cultures whose vocal cords have been ripped from them then called too stupid to speak up when it was happening.
You have no idea how many museums and artifacts have ended up returned because of this episode. It's so amazing what someone with a platform can actually do just by telling a true story.
One thing John didn't mention was how much more stolen art is hidden away in private collections. These people often have deeper pockets and less hesitation to acquiring art with a "dubious" ownership history.
Yep. That's how the Getty "museum" in California got its start. When I was studying Classics for my undergrad degree that place was discussed a lot because of all the artifacts and how they were acquired.
Sure, but each single private weirdo will not have anything like the collection that a single major museum like the British Museum has. It's much more practical to focus on the museums (at least for now) because they will naturally be responsive to legislation, whereas rich criminals will not. A single law could be passed & the problem of imperial loot in museums could be solved. That's not to say that we shouldn't go after those people as vigorously as possible & return their ill gotten loot to their proper homes... it's just a different problem which will be more complicated to solve.
That’s also why these museum will never return things, at least not on a scale that matters. These museums would go out of business if they returned all those artifacts, so they’ll never return them willingly.
A number of years ago, our family visited the British Museum. While we were looking at the Rosetta Stone, my young son asked a guard, "Did you guys steal all this stuff?" The guard's reply was, "Well. I suppose we did."
Locals stole the contents of gravechambers and sold them. Locals didn't give a crap about the historical significance. Brits discovered ancient artefacts and collected them for science and archeology and to educate the public.
The guard didnt know. The Rosetta Stone was found by a French Soldier when Napoleon had invaded Egypt. Very few people, including the local Egyptians, would have recognized what it was. It is astonishly valuable because it had a proclamation in Egyptian hieroglyphics and also in ancient Greek. The French scholar Champillion painstakingly worked out what the hieroglyphics meant. Britain received the stone as part of a treaty.
@@granthurlburt4062 it was also used as part of wall if that solder though that he should leave it there, we would still have no clue, how to translate hieroglyphics
"The difference between archaeology and looting is 50 years." - one of my anthropology professors explaining the fucked up providence arguments of museums.
Fun fact the word loot is a Hindi / Sanskrit (Indian language) word. So the British looted so much that they even took the word loot which the people cried when they were looting.
My mother inherited a piece of the Parthenon from her father that he brought home after WWll. I remember it being a doorstop growing up. She mailed it back to Greece about 15 years ago
My grandmother found out her grand parents had managed to obtain an Eaglehead dress when she was going through our family storage, she contacted a bunch of people about where it should be probably donated, the museums wanted to not only claim it and planned to put in storage , but were going to fine her for owning it. Keep in mind she was not trying to sell just send it where it should be, thankfully a native American Heritage association got ahold of her and had the legal power to defend their claim on it so it did not end up in a box in a bottom of a basement. It was really gorgoues. I wish I knew where it ended up only that it ended up with a heritage organizaiton.
That was likely a war trophy. The religious significance of a single eagle feather, let alone an entire war bonnet is too great for it to have been a gift, if genuine. And genuine ones are never sold or traded.
Damn Im white and it still blow my mind how we can still be sad fact only white people got some of their artefact returned from Denmark (im sure others small things got returned) as A dane who love vikings Im sad for people culture to be stolen
I LIKED HOW YOU POSTED WHAT THE VIDEO SAID BUT IN A MUCH MORE GENERIC WAY!!!! I HOPE YOU GET ALL THE UPDOOTS YOU WANT! THATS WHY YOU POST GENERIC COMMENTS RIGHT?!? SO PEOPLE CLICK THUMBS UP AND YOU DONT FEEL LIKE A FAILURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I studied Native American Anthropology under a Cherokee professor, and one of the things she was involved with (a side hustle, you could say) was seeking to get stolen Native artifacts out of museum basements and back with the tribes. In one case, the museum was being stubborn that "you can't prove we stole this," so my professor tracked down the granddaughter of the woman who made the item (I think it was a ceremonial bead robe or shawl). This tribal elder explained the little tricks her grandmother used that literally no one could have known, things even the museum didn't notice until they inspected even closer, family trade secrets she still used and had taught to her own grandchildren. She made it more than abundantly clear, this belonged to her family. Back in the 1800s, her village was raided and her grandmother gangraped by White men. They ran off with anything they thought looked valuable. This included some of the young girls, livestock, head dresses, furs, and her beadwork outfits. So not only was it stolen, but in a really horrific manner. The museum had bought the majority of their Native American artifacts off a group of rapists. That was not the type of publicity they wanted, so they gave it back. This old lady wore her grandmother's robe at the next dance ceremony. All of this was around 20 years ago, so I hope her grandkids still wear that outfit at ceremonies.
@@placebojesus5652 "Blah blah history, blah blah both sides, blah blah blah coulda woulda shoulda, blah blah blah triggered. blah blah I'm in the power seat now, so all the back and forth before doesn't count cause the past was just a practice run, and history actually begins now with my culture on top." You're a clown and we all see you with your pants around your ankles, pretending. 😆 🤡😆🤡😆🤡😆🤡😆
@@placebojesus5652 "well we could have been worse" is a very bad excuse when talking about cultural - and actual - genocide tho also two wrongs don't make a right? yes it's horrible native americans killed some of your family, but that doesn't excuse theft, murder and gangrape and it isn't an excuse to not try to right the wrongs of the past. i mean both as a general rule. i don't think europeans are especially cruel or evil. just don't make excuses because you're uncomfortable with your ancestor's history.
Like... Britain is a place, right- it has a history- plenty of museums and interpretive centers just talk about what is physically nearby. Also, think of the exhibits they could create telling the story of stealing all this shit and giving it back. Like the Experience Music Project for cultural resource theft.
Yeah that's what I'm wondering too. Do the Brits not have their own heritage to display if the museums would be empty? Then they better get to work and start creating some!
The line “if you say yes to [giving back one artifact] you suddenly find the British Museum would be empty” is shockingly similar to what the evil mercenary guy said in Disney’s Atlantis: The Lost Empire before he tried to steal the city’s power source for a museum…
“Academics, you never want to get your hands dirty. Think about it. If you gave back every stolen artifact from a museum, you'd be left with an empty building! We're just, providing a necessary service to the archeological community.” - Lyle Tiberius Rourke, 1914
Fun fact about the Elgin Marbles: After the British Museum refused to return them on the grounds that Greece didn’t have a proper place to display them, they built the state of the art modern Acropolis Museum in Athens for the chief purpose of housing the Elgin Marbles. They still refuse to send them back. Also, when Lord Elgin was transporting the marbles to Britain, the ship they were on sank, and the marbles had to be salvaged from the ocean floor.
This is like a caricature. A thief pulling a sled of stolen goods that tips over and they hurriedly addresses the situation before their victims can catch them
Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and gives salvation to everyone who has faith in him. True faith in Jesus will have you bear good fruit and *drastically* change for the better! Those led by the Holy Spirit do not abide in wickedness. *God is ONE manifesting himself as THREE;* the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! Bless him! *For these three are one.* As I am led by the Holy Spirit, nothing I state is a lie, but the truth of God. Anyone who tells you differently is misinformed or a liar. They do not know God, nor led by him. Anyone who *claims* to be a Christian and is against what I am doing, and where I am doing it; the Holy Spirit does not dwell within them, they lack understanding. They know not God, read his word, and their religion is in vain. Do not hear them, they will mislead you, the lost cannot guide the lost.
When you trust in God and cast your cares (worries, anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts) upon him, they will be NO MORE! Know that there is power in the name Jesus Christ! His name casts out demons and heals! The world is wicked, evil, and of the devil. I too, was a wicked sinner of the world before I opened my heart to God. I am living proof of God's work and fruitfulness! He is an active God who hears the prayers of his! God's children are set apart (holy) and righteous. The devil is a liar that comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy; that includes your relationship with God.
Greek person here: our conservation methods are actually very advanced. I attended a seminar a few years ago where a specialist actually went into detail about the methods they use to conserve and preserve the marbles. A lot of time and effort is put into researching the best ways to care for our artefacts, something that can’t be said for the British museum.
Sadly, as the other person said, I imagine the Brits would just argue that these techniques are invalid or incorrect and you guys don’t actually know what you’re doing. :(
The artifacts were fine all this time until the brits decided to steal them. So obviously the people who they have belonged to for millennia know how to take care of their treasures. Unlike the savages who looted these artifacts out of cultural deficiency and jealousy.
Honestly, that's not even the point. It is your stuff-it's not really any of Britain's business if it is cared for properly or not. If you guys want to take your stuff back, beat it into dust with a hammer, then make a toilet out of it, well, that would be your decision. Needs to go back.
So many Nepalese deities are all over USA. The most important one is Taleju Bhagwan goddess, she graces Chicago museum right now. I am 30 years old and I have never seen the statue cause it was stolen decades ago and now the empty temple stands in heart Kathmandu waiting for the deity to return home. I spotted several of deities in Yale museum as well. It’s heartbreaking.
They already do. Take for example the Sutton hoo helmet. There is a reproduction to show what it originally looked like, many people assume it is the original. The original was in pieces and incomplete when it was first discovered.
One of the most fun museums I've ever visited was filled with REPLICAS of famous sculptures, and the fact that they weren't originals truly didn't lessen the impact of the craftsmanship and artistic vision of the artist. I don't know why we can't do that with all the objects we've stolen from other countries. I'm sure that most people wouldn't be able to spot the difference even if they knew.
Or how about establishing a relationship with the country of origin to loan out artifacts to museums around the world where they can be appreciated by many more, and their owners are rightfully compensated for sharing their history?
Look up dinosaur skeletons and find out how much what you see has been replicated, also go to the shipwreck museum in key west and see how they replicate artifacts for show.
@@sircrapalot9954 Oliver addresses that near the end as a viable (and even likely) option many of these countries can take. The issue is most of these museums don’t simply want to display the treasures - they accumulate wealth by “owning” it and a loaning system prevents that.
There is a certain awe in seeing original pieces, but it should be the decision of the nation of origin. So much stuff was taken from 3rd world countries. I bet the extra revenue from loaning their historic artifacts would bring them closer to a modern world. And I'd be willing to spend extra to see an original piece, especially if I'm used to seeing the replica.
@@ascent8487 to apreciate the craftsmanship? replicas are better for disserning details since they are .. well not hundreds or thousands of years old. A replica is basically what the exhibited sculpture looked like when it was made. You can allow people to touch replicas or at least get mutch closer as they are not as valuable.
I had my best moment during my visit to the British Museum in one of its toilets, where I found written on one white brick: "I suppose you stole this marble too, eh?". Brilliant!
@John Capry Well, most of the museum's collection didn't impress me, the only other great thing I remember having a glimpse there was the Rosetta Stone - it was crowded around it.
@John Capry Aww, that's so sweet. Getting your feelings hurt on behalf of those poor colonizers. Surely, they would give you big hugs for defending their honor.
@John Capry I'm sure the imperialist overlords pay you well for your sniveling boot licking on their behalf. oh, your doing it for free? just a cretin, then. how sad.
Its so gross how often they default to the age old argument that "the law," which was written by thieves to legalize their plunder, is on their side. Really feels like "we were the aggressor, we stole it fair and square, and they couldn't do anything about it" wrapped up in a prim and proper facade, and feels very pompous.
Former archivist (turning farmer) here. Thank you for bringing all of this up, it's essential. Could you maybe do a kind of part 2 about the environmental impact of archiving and museums? We are preserving ourselves to death.
This reminds me a lot of the Irish Giant Charles Byrne. He was 7' 7'' and he was so afraid of a collector or museum displaying his body when he died that he had his friends bury him at sea. Unfortunately, before his friends could follow through with their promise his corpse was stolen by a 'collector' and was eventually sold to the Royal College of Surgeons in London. It is still on display there over 200 years later despite efforts by activists for him to be buried. People with the same genetic condition as Byrne, who are from the same part of the country as him and probably share DNA have offered to donate their skeletons when they die so that Byrne can be released, but the museum has always refused.
To know that they would be so obsessive about 'collecting' him, he must have heard a bunch of super creepy comments about displaying his body while still alive.
@@user-hq8wm8giyujcg No it is not a subcontinent the continent if you want to add asia africa and europe togheter has a name it is called afroeurasia also known as the old world. There is different definitions of continent europe asia and africa classify as continents. But they also all do not classify as continents, there is a similar deal with America by the way.
Clearly that man never understood Solomon’s story there. Solomon wasn’t saying whoever loves the baby more gets the baby, he was figuring out the true owner of it and giving it back!
In 1988, as a Belgian teenager, I visited the British Museum. I was shocked when I saw parts of temples and large statues that were sawn in blocks and have been moved to Great Britain. I asked the attendant if this wasn't all stolen from the countries where it came from and I'll never forget the answer : "I can't answer that question, I would be out of a job".
given that was only 20 years after the dissolution of "Belgisch-Kongo", that must've hit a bit hard home for ya :P but yeah kinda shocking how much of the really messed up things people still considered "business as usual" until really recently while we all think it's been like hundreds of years ago... related "fun" fact i learned (as a german): germany technically still holds territory in cuba nowadays. granted we didn't steal _that_ bit, castro just gave it to the DDR (and then during the reunification we all forgot it existed, and then a few years ago everyone just decided it was "only gifted symbolically"), but... yeah, so much for ancient colonial times :P
My hometown of Dresden is currently negotiating returning Benin Bronzes to Nigeria. Compared to the global stage, we are a small city and need the tourism - and yet, the Bronzes will be going home to Nigeria within the next year. If an unknown Eastern German town can deal with giving the Bronzes away, I'm sure the British Museum can handle a little morality.
calling Dresden an "unknown small city" is doing it a bit of a disservice, honestly. HOWEVER, that still means that the bronzes should be returned. Dresden has more than enough of it´s own local historic artwork and architecture to not need to rely on looted artifacts for tourism.
I love that the whole point of the Solomon story is that when you truly love something you are willing to let it go to make sure it isn't harmed in the conflict of ownership. Meanwhile the British museum was very literally willing to hack the "baby" in half to get to keep a part of it. Like this is the absolutely worst story to make your case!
Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and gives salvation to everyone who has faith in him. True faith in Jesus will have you bear good fruit and *drastically* change for the better! Those led by the Holy Spirit do not abide in wickedness. *God is ONE manifesting himself as THREE;* the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! Bless him! *For these three are one.* As I am led by the Holy Spirit, nothing I state is a lie, but the truth of God. Anyone who tells you differently is misinformed or a liar. They do not know God, nor led by him. Anyone who *claims* to be a Christian and is against what I am doing, and where I am doing it; the Holy Spirit does not dwell within them, they lack understanding. They know not God, read his word, and their religion is in vain. Do not hear them, they will mislead you, the lost cannot guide the lost.
When you trust in God and cast your cares (worries, anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts) upon him, they will be NO MORE! Know that there is power in the name Jesus Christ! His name casts out demons and heals! The world is wicked, evil, and of the devil. I too, was a wicked sinner of the world before I opened my heart to God. I am living proof of God's work and fruitfulness! He is an active God who hears the prayers of his! God's children are set apart (holy) and righteous. The devil is a liar that comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy; that includes your relationship with God.
The part I find most upsetting is that in American schools (unsure about European education), Africa’s history is constantly overlooked as though they lacked culture and society. Often as a way to excuse and justify colonialism and slavery. But the culture and societal history was either stolen or destroyed throughout the continent.
I feel so lucky that while i was in high school i took the elective called AFRICAN EXPERIENCE. Which i think is pretty progressive for the sometimes backward Pennsylvania
That version of the history of colonised African states was by design. Colonialists justified their land grab by saying that there was no "civilisation" evident and the people were "savages". So tearing down the cities, universities, castles and churches was systematic, then they simply wrote the history books. Always question history books, always ask who wrote them. By the way, Ethiopia is one country that managed to retain it's cultural heritage. When you visit there, you'll understand just how much the world has lost because of the greed of the Europeans.
@@ArashiKageTaro That's likely because they don't see themselves as connected to the crimes of their predecessors. That seems to be a common theme in all these cases of historical wrongs displayed as 'history' by the perpetrators' descendants.
@@abercrombieblovs2042 Exactly. They don't see themselves as connected so by extension they take no responsibility in most cases for the return of these artifacts and relics.
@@rjmeeks4152 To be fair, I can't really blame them - if some random person knocked on my front door and said "Hey, your dining room table was stolen from us by your great-great-great-grandfather, we want it back", I would hesitate for... more than a few seconds, let's say that. Of course, these aren't just random people.
I used to work for the natural science museum in Houston and they did go through their exhibits and their archives and return Native American artifacts to the various nations they belonged to. Then they worked with native artists and commissioned replicas for display. I don't know why other museums can't do something similar.
Repatriation and inclusion of communities are rising themes in museums and it really seems that museums are starting to do similar things much more often.
@@seffishestopal5950 You people act like King Tut is still walking around to return his belongings to. Sending items back to their country of origin, or even thinking about just sending that country money as "reparations" isn't the answer here. You're rewarding people who didn't have anything to do with the artifacts to begin with.
@@tepidceranda3394 To people who didn't have anything to do with them? It's THEIR cultural heritage ffs. This is not about returning articats to individuals but to return them to their cultural homes so the indigenous people can enjoy their heritage. Jeez..
It is absolutely a crime to plunder societies. I have been following you for decades now, and I feel like you are speaking my thoughts on every topic you address. I can also appreciate your sense of humor, or since you're British humour!
I met some members of the Lakota Nation a few years back. They told me that one of the leaders in the community, Mama Jules, was Crazy Horse's granddaughter, and that she had been trying for years to get his war jacket/vest back from the Smithsonian. The Smithsonian just kept delaying and giving bogus answers for why it could not be returned. All of these cases take on a greater level of frustration when you hear the personal stories of the folk the items were taken from.
First off, Mama Jules is a great name and I'm sure she's as awesome as she sounds. Secondly, imagine some institution is hanging on to your grandfathers coat for no good reason.
“You can’t judge us in the present based on what we did in the past” ok, but in the present you are openly choosing to keep items you know are stolen, and yes, we can absolutely judge you for that
No, you cant, because you live on stolen land yourself. If you never owned it, nor your parents or grandparents never owned it, you have no claim to it. This argument of perpetuity is idiotic.
Great episode! I often wondered about the ownership of cultural art pieces in museums and was really happy to find this topic discussed here. I love this show so much! You are the best!
Why don’t they say, “We are going to return the everything to their rightful country of origin and maintain a collection of carefully crafted replicas to replace them, each paying homage to the original and the story of its return as part of the museum.”That would still allow the collection to inspire, and put them back in their rightful place. You could even document the replication as an art form of paying respect.
I’m going to answer my question by saying…. Money…. That’s why. All of those items hold huge value to the countries who own them… and they won’t let them go.
Not at all a bad idea. I want to add that in some cultures certain objects deemed sacred are not supposed to be displayed, photographed or replicated. But yes repatriation, the return of those objects, should always be the practice.
@@Justin_Leahy I get that but we aren’t talking dinosaur bones here. No one is going to make a replica of a 1000 year old book. Look what happened in Syria during the uprising. So many sculptures and artifacts were destroyed by isis from the old ages that we will never get to see again. Some countries can’t take care of these things. I’m against these museums but I understand the need sometimes.
"Can we have our stuff back?" "I don't know. I'm not sure you can even prove it is your stuff." "Yes, I can. You put it in a display case, with a little placard VERY EXPLICITLY STATING THAT IT IS MY STUFF" The British Museum in a nutshell
It is more nuanced than that. Britain has the Rosetta stone because we took it off a French warship that we defeated in the Napoleonic wars. Napoleon had a good old loot when he was there. Also, there are some things in the museum that were sold in good faith by the governments of the time and now the modern governments want it back. I am not against it in principle but if that happens, then the French, Spanish , American etc museums plus private collections, should give their stuff back too. I am sure there are British treasures in foreign museums. The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York has a whole 'British' floor.
Meh... not quite. One thing to note about the Benin Bronzes is that they are Benin, not Nigerian. Benin has been eaten by Nigeria but the bronzes would be returned to Nigeria, not Benin. The past is a distant shore. The owners and creators of these treasures are LONG dead. Those who happen to be born on the same ground in modern times have no more claim than those who are actually descended from the creators who were driven from their ancestral lands. Modern Egyptians are unrelated to the builders of the Pyramids. The Roman empire looted the shit out of Britain. Should modern Mexico return the art of the Incas to their few remaining descendents? All this fighting over old shit is averice and prestige and nothing more.
One of the best programmes you ever presented John, amongst a very selective lot. Thank you ! As an art lover, this is really food for thought and could almost turn ones perceptions of art galleries and museums on its head. The truth it seems is never pleasant but it is essential for us to remain human.
I’m half Egyptian and I’m born and raised in Egypt. When I was little, I was SO fascinated by ancient Egyptian culture. When I was about 6 years old, my mom’s friend took me to the Egyptian museum. To my horror, almost all the artefacts weren’t available to see. There were just glass cases with photos of what would have been there, but were at other museums in Western Europe, the UK, or NY. The new Egyptian museum is opening up soon and supposedly it’ll have the largest archeological collection in the world. Here’s hoping that it’s not just going to be a huge disappointment like I had as a kid.
In Babylon they had to build a replica of the Ishtar gate because some German guy fucking stole the whole real entry way and 118 out of 120 lions on the processional way. They had the audacity to say “Iraqis couldn’t take care of their artifacts” because the remnants of the gate got damaged by US bombardment during the war. They had the audacity to say that the gate was “bought and paid for” because smuggling something down the river in pieces during the night is the kind of thing you do when you buy something 😂
@@aperson8916 honestly the only reason the Pyramids of Giza are still in Egypt is because they would have been too heavy to move. Those assholes even took our three largest Obelisks from Luxor… it’s absolute insanity.
@@aperson8916 In Iraq's case they were right. Remember what happened at the Iraqi National Museum when dozens of ancient statues were destroyed by muslim fondamentalists? Turns out they were not safe
@@dekenlst Are you being serious? Do you also think Ukraine don't deserve to take care of their own artifacts because they are being demolished by Russia? You can't judge the museum based on what other people choose to do to it! That's called victim blaming.
CBS Sunday Morning did a piece on this recently. New York has a police team devoted to this very subject. Some items have actually been seized out of people's home. Worth a watch. Thanks for the video!
The ridiculous part is, that there is a well established and functioning lease and lend economy for museums. Most countries are very, very open to lending out artworks to other countries museums to share their culture around the world, even indefinitely.
@@Kap00rwith2os I'm pretty sure that's their point. These museums could hold and display these objects ethically, they just don't bother to go through the process of returning them and then getting lending permission.
Its a weird business practice acquiring art and cultural objects through conquest or illegal trade and then making money on them not only by displaying them but also renting them out to other museums. That would be like stealing objects from your neighboring city and making money on its display and renting it out for others to display. And the sad thing is seeing people, who work for the museums, or profit from this practice, actively defend the museums claim the objects despite the obvious dubious morality of it, all in the name of profits. Every time i see someone say something so crazy or defend the indefensible i have to stop and say "Well, whos profiting from this" and once you follow the money trail, it all makes a dark sense.
I just lost my best fur friend last year and it was devastating as it always is. Being an adopter of older pets, ive been through this heartbreak many times. All we can do is give them the best lives possible and and pass on the love they give us. So sorry for your loss farron. So glad those two kittens landed in the right hands.
My favorite thing I think I've ever seen in a museum is a totem pole carved by a local tribal artist. The museum used to have a looted totem pole, but they gave it back to the tribe and instead commissioned a new pole to be displayed in a section dedicated to the tribe's history and current goings-on.
I don’t know if this is where you had your experience, but I work at the Harvard Museums of Science & Culture, in Cambridge, MA, and we have that exact situation! The new totem pole has an adjoined video showing it’s creation. There are plenty of other original indigenous artifacts, but I’m at least happy that this was given back.
One of my favorite sayings about the British museum. "The only reason the Pyramids aren't in the British Museum is because they were too big to carry."
@@boomboomtrucker8032 We "don't know" because we have _several_ ways it could have been done and some have been tested in practice, though of course at a lower scale because the really amazing part of the pyramids is that they imply an incredibly advanced planning, engineering and logistic effort over a long period of time given the era. Why devalue the capacities of the ancients just because you prefer fiction and need to believe in aliens ?
@@boomboomtrucker8032 We actually do though. We can't prove that a method or another was used, but we've shown a lot of possible methods that could have been used to do so at the time. The bullshit about perfect geometry in these is complotist horseshit. Like how some alleys in the pyramids are perfect to the millimeter while rock blocks have gaps already bigger than a centimeter at points. They are an incredible prowess for the time they were built, but nothing that can't be reproduced with modern or ancient tools and enough people.
@@boomboomtrucker8032 we know how it was made we just don’t have the tools to recreate it as the ancient Egyptians built it. The method is extinct just like how we cannot recreate Apollo 13 because the technology and hand calculations and physical construction of it cannot be replicated due to increased technology and quite literally the loss of hand written calculations used to build it.
The Gerald Ford segment not ending in a joke - POWERFUL I will admit to expecting a live James Spader tied, gagged, and on display (the Remington costume of course)
It’s like if when adults play the “I got your nose!” game with kids, instead of graciously giving it back after the kid starts to cry, they simply told the child that actually there’s no record of stealing in my acquisition of your nose and also until we can trust you to properly maintain your own nose, I will be the responsible custodian of it from now on :) 🤦🏻♀️
I do wish they had touched on the problem of returning artifacts and antiquities to nation with active Islamic Fundamentalist groups destroying any and all non-Muslim artifacts. They claim they are "false idols". Should we return things from museums to countries where radicals in their population are actively destroying those things?
One more infuriating thing about the "well it's on display and anyone can visit it" argument is that a lot of the artifacts were stolen from poor countries, where a trip to the UK can be prohibitively expensive. Where I am from it would cost roughly one third to one half of the median annual salary for a 1 week trip to the UK, and according to Google there are more than 100k artifacts from my country in UK museums. So the average person will likely never afford to go see them.
They mostly make the "Can't take care of it themselves" excuse with countries with a majority of people of color. 'cause gotta be racist on top of it. They aren't going to do that with France. Although doing it with Greece is a pretty bold move.
Still better that some people can see it and experts can study it than noone. Tell me what happened to Palmyra again? Or to Mosul museum and library? Tell me why most of the graves in Egypt are found empty? What happened to the thing from the graves when found by locals?
@@risharehraje793 You're comparing ancient crimes to modern looting. Not to mention, a lot of museums who want their artifacts back would gladly lend them out for study from experts. So, what about all the shit just sitting in storage getting dusty with no one looking at them or even knowing it's down there. I can't count the number of times museums have lost artifacts in their own storage only to be rediscovered decades later because no one gave a damn to look for them in the first place. But we get it, you fully believe museums are good and blah blah. Bet you complain when Confederate statues are taken down
Please please do not stop making such true and valuable videos! The last bit - mmmmaaaasterpiece! As for someone coming from a colonialized country, this felt like 10 thousand fluffiest puppies climbing all over you!
From the british perspective, and those of other countries with stolen artifacts, the way forward ought to be fairly simple. Create replicas of each artifact to keep in your own museum, and return the originals to the countries they were stolen from.
often times they were not stolen from countries. and often times those countries cannot be trusted to take care of them. the middle east has a history of destroying artifact from antiquity because they are pagan. i think it would be best to have artifacts held by those that would take care of them
As someone from Mexico who knows there's a _shitload_ of Prehispanic artifacts scattered around the world, it makes me happy John Oliver talked about this topic. Hopefully we'll see the day when each historical relic is placed back in their place of origin and kept safely for the years to come. Alas, I might be too optimistic.
i recently learned that my dad was partially taino (a peaceful tribe indigenous to the Caribbean that forcibly integrated with slaves and colonists because they were hunted out of their homes and enslaved) and that there is fortunately a taino tribe in Boriken (also known by its colonist name Puerto Rico) that is fighting for government recognition and keeping the language alive. recently an auction house in europe called Christie auctioned off ancestor spirit homes (zemis) for millions, calling these zemi's and cooking utensils "exotic artifacts of an extinct peoples" meanwhile the tribe was fighting to get them returned. they ended up selling almost half of it to private collectors and put the rest in storage and said that the these personal incredibly sacred pieces were "gifts" and given in "good faith".
I have seen the marbles in Greece and the matching parts in the British Museum. There is no reason that the British Museum cannot make duplicates and return the originals.
A museum in my home town has plaster casts of the Elgin marbles. It was only in the last several years that I learned something about how little museums got many plaster casts--in many cases, the source was a museum that had started out with casts, but got their hands on the real thing, and no longer wanted the copies. I don't recall the details, but looting is ultimately responsible for many small museums getting quality copies. Which makes me wonder--instead of getting involved with thieves, why aren't museums choosing to obtain quality copies, and leaving the originals where it belongs? It seems to me that the museums would save an awful lot of money by doing that, and avoid immoral dealings with crooks. Why not take those stolen artifacts, make good copies, and return them to where they were stolen from? Though plaster copies normally only reproduce the shapes, they could be made to match the colors, too, where that makes a difference. Of course, things like the Elgin marbles weren't originally plain stone, and the scrubbing they got destroyed a huge amount of information--they were originally painted--so we don't know exactly what they should look like anymore.
@@TheEudaemonicPlague I would expect it has to do with their business model; the only thing museums are selling is the premise of the "real thing", presumably old or even ancient. Replacing them with replicas entirely puts them firmly in the educational category, and people are just not paying for that.
@@zwenkwiel816 considering that it was a British man, not a Greek one, who carved out the bits of relief mentioned in the video, I’d say check yourself
Agreed rather wholeheartedly. Oh sure these bits of culture are nice to show off in museums, but we have the technology to now make highly detailed full 3d scans of the pieces and use those to make near flawless duplicates. I remember a field trip to the parthanon in Nashville in sixth grade. I. Fucking. LOVED it. I didn't care that it was all reproduction. I just loved that it was there and it was an attempt at bringing antiquity TO us in a way that was accessable. I mean. It wouldn't have had the sam effect to see a bit of this anda bitof that behind glass. Seeing a life sized recreation of the frescos and statues. To walk the length and bredth of a place and cast your mind's eye back. 'This was built.... without modern tools by a culture who had the will and knowledge to make it happen.... also a shitton of slaves ando r menials to do the grunt work.' I want more places like that. Less of the vandalism.
In college, an anthropology student told me, "If these artifacts were not stolen the native people would not take care if them like we would; also, they would try to sell their own art and artifacts through the underground markets." This is a twisted rationalization?
Thank you for covering this. Here in Greece the marbles are called the Parthenon marbles, because they are part of the Parthenon, while in Britain they call them Elgin marbles, because they think they are part of Lord Elgin.
I, too, would like to see them go back to Athens. Religious buildings should not be dismantled piecemeal for the aesthetics of foreigners, even if hardly anyone practices the specific religion anymore. It's just not right.
"You may be wondering how we have so many great foreign treasures here at the British Museum. And the answer is simple: Gun beats spear." - Frankie Boyle
@@minty6347 You do know what industrialized means right?... Most of all you do comprehend and understand what happened in the early stages of colonization right? or did you not do your research in history well enough?. You do comprehend as well theirs a reason the UK's British museum has a lot of pillaged artifacts right? (Dont forget the other countries like Austria, France and etc.).
My daughter works at the National Museum of Scotland and worked hard to help a indigenous community from our home in Canada try to repatriate a memorial pole that was stolen from their community. She was disciplined for trying to help them. I’d love you to do a story about their struggle.
As a Canadian with an interest in museum work and my country's cultural heritage that is interesting. Thanks for sharing and good on her for trying to help
Thank you to your daughter for her efforts. This story got a fair bit of press here in Canada when the Nisga'a delegation visited the museum in August, but I assume the repatriation efforts have stalled since there have been no updates since then. Still, the fact that the museum was willing to meet and discuss the possible repatriation brings me some hope. The British Museum has another Nisga'a pole which they purchased from the same man (Marius Barbeau) who sold the pole in the National Museum of Scotland. They also have a Haida pole acquired from a different collector. Maybe Scotland can set an example that prompts the British Museum to return these two poles and other artifacts looted throughout history.
@@kestaa I very much hope The National Museum of Scotland can be a leader in reparations. It is a huge passion for my daughter. She hopes to complete her Archaeology degree.
My mum who is a chronic fox news watcher was still unsure after this and it only took a "imagine if the lady of lourdes statue of Mary was sawn off at the feet to be put on display in Kenya, how livid you and all of fox news would be" to get her to understand how not ok all of this is.
Thank you, mate. I am Benin and we all know the history of the looting. The day I went to the British Museum, the African section was not opened and I have never seen the Benin Bronzes.
The clip at the end is so good. It really reminds me of the weird, surreal opening to those old DW documentaries. Unlike any museum I've ever been to, yet somehow, 100% Museum.
When I was in a museum in Cambodia, they had some empty glass cases describing an artifact that was in some other museum and when they asked for it back. Some of the cases did have items with labels when they asked for an item back and when they received it usually several years to a decade later. I think this public shaming is a clever idea and makes people more aware of the issue.
I think the stockades should make a societal comeback. If we can't penalize corporations for crimes then we should at least be able to throw 6$ genetically modified and glyphosate ridden tomatoes at their ceos, cfos, 23 vice presidents and board members. That'll be one long piece of wood. Too bad we have so few old growth forests left in existence.
Someone once asked me how much time needs to pass before grave robbing becomes archaeology, and I immediately responded, "The amount of time it takes to ship it to the British Museum."
This reminds me of an exhibition at the Nairobi National Museum. The place was empty except for placques stating what artifact should be there, which European museum has it and why the refuse to return it.
That's so sad... I think it's gonna take a long time to get to a point where most artifacts are returned to the place they were stolen from, but it's definitely worth it to keep trying. Those people deserve ownership of their own cultural heritage just as much as everyone else. It's a spit in the face to have to deal with this after colonialization as well... as if there was not enough harm done already. They really aren't even trying to do the bare minimum in order to set things right after they wronged so many (not just Britain ofc, but since they were the colonial overlords, they are definitely one of the biggest perpetrators here).
See if I was an “influencer” with money to jet around or set up a real life squid game I would be flying there to bring attention to that Or the sewage spills off the pacific coast that run 24/7 now
As a Mexican, I would have liked to see the case of Moctezuma's headpiece at least mentioned... It's in Austria, and when asked to give it back, they always give the same response: "you cannot guarantee it will be safely transported and kept". Seems like it is the ultimate answer all museums can think about!!!
That's such a bad excuse too....If Austria is so concerned about transportation and preservation then they should make sure it is safely transported and perhaps give resources to ensure it's "kept "well.
more important than that are the codices detailing our pre columbian history. not only was our language, culture taken from us but the history of our people. though we be mixed peoples we are still native american.
You don't get to demand something that you were warned was an expensive liability, then demand the other guy foot the bill bc it turns out you can't. If you REALLY care about it, you'll leave it where it is until you're ready.
Well, they can't really guarantee that the Museum in Austria isn't ever going to be hit by a natural disaster or terrorist attack or just fire. In all honestly: any curator or restaurateur of such pieces would probably get a minor panic attack at the thought of 'their' beloved baby being taken away an on a dangerous journey to some far-away place where nobody knows about their dietary needs ... ahem, the perfect storage conditions (light, temperature, humidity ...). The problem is: 1 - It's not like museums wouldn't still transport pieces between each other for exhibitions, and if Austrian experts really has doubts about the expertise in, say, the Mexico City National Museum of Anthropology, then they can simply collaborate and send their own technicians along as advisors. 2 - more importantly: it's not "their" baby. Yes, it probably feels like it when you've been responsible for it for years, but it's not. In the end, returning it is the only ethical course of action. Just create a super-duper copy, exhibit that with a plaque that the original is now in Somewhere else, Mexico, because we decided to do the right thing. (Possibly after trying everything else.)
Smithsonian still has Chief Big Foot (real name Spotted Eagle) actual prayer pipe, a sacred item, stolen from his body after the Massacre of Wounded Knee. They refused to return it to his grandson, Jasper Spotted Eagle, who recently passed. The tribe is still trying to get it returned to the family.
The notorious Skull and Bones club at Yale allegedly has the skull of Geronimo that they use for ceremonies. www.npr.org/2009/03/09/101626709/mystery-of-the-bones-geronimos-missing-skull. Maybe his ghost will come back and haunt the f__k out of George H W Bush.
I like the idea of museums returning original objects, but also displaying reproductions. I like even better the idea of having craftspeople in the originating countries create reproductions for museums. That way it supports the continuation of the original crafts, and improves understanding of the cultural significance of the objects. But only if the craftspeople are decently paid for their work, which should go on display, not be kept in a box in storage.
there definitely need to be a industry of art reproductions, as well as international repatriation "agency" to link up with the originals and facilitate sharing and other stuff
@@PrograError I promise you, from the bottom of my heart, art reproductions of almost every type are available, particularly without the artist's consent
This sounds so condescending. Artefacts created in the past, of which the context where in they were created isn't possible to recreate, should be returned to their original people, period. They shouldn't need to do all these other things you want them to do. Go recreate your own historical artefacts if you think it's so important.
You can't just drop that here and walk away!!! I hope you only worked there 6 months because you couldn't take being part of such an awful place! I finish my masters in Museum Studies this summer, work in a museum, been to London twice and both times boycotted going to the British Museum. My best friend was mad at me over this but respected my decision because she doesn't work in my field.
As a greek, this topic will always make my blood boil. I wonder sometimes what they would say if one day, someone stole the elgin marbles and just brought them to the acropolis museum. Would the british have the audacity to ask for them back?
What would be good is if they made some really high value replicas of the elgin marbles, like to the level a expert is needed to tell the diff, then send the originals back to their homeland and display the replicas. That way that event in history can still be seen in the replica elgin marbles and the originals can go back to once again be part of the display they were taken from.
@@BioroidPilot It's been pointed out that making replicas would also improve the overall understanding of a piece, forcing a more in-depth study of the materials and methods -- which could then additionally help bring back lost arts and make history more hands-on for students. It would also frequently require bringing in peoples from the respective cultures to provide instruction on how to do it right, and WHY it was done a particular way. (And of course, all of this has to be done without causing further damage, and cannot be made into an excuse to keep holding on to anything indefinitely.)
This brings to mind Kilmonger's first appearance in "Black Panther." He came to a museum to steal a Wakandian artifact, after first schooling a museum curator about the actual history of that artifact. The fictional museum curator seems toned down after seeing the real life versions.
Oh yeah! Same! I think they tried too hard to not make westerners seem "the bad guys" otherwise we'd all agree too much with Kilmonger, but they may have gone too far and muddied things to the point that the turnaround perspective of the movie went over most movie goers heads.
Ha yeah and just in case you were thinking, "Wait he's kinda right" then they have him kill people. So now you can sympathize with his motives, but still root for the heroes. This happens a lot with villains.
I once saw that someone said that the only reason Egypt still has the pyramids is that they were too big to be moved to Britain
I saw it too😂
And the living accommodations isn’t roomy enough for American or Russian Oligarchs….
That's an excellent level of stupid lol
The tops of the pyramids were tipped with gold and i would not be surprised to find them in Britain or very possibly in the vaults of the Vatican.
Or in Turin, Italy 😅 🙊
Lets all appreciate that HBO puts all LWT episodes in almost their entirety for free on youtube without a shitton of ads.
Its cuz not everyone can afford HBO or wants HBO, verrry admirable
Well, I even have HBO (Max) and I still watch in on YT, because that's where most of the stuff I watch is. It's great that the important part is here and that it can get to so many people.
you guys having ads?
👀
👀
I’ve been saying that. It’s fantastic.
Don't put thoughts in their head ;)
One of the biggest problems with the "anyone can visit it" argument is that many of them are not meant to just be visited. Many of the idols of deities from Asian countries were stolen from active worship. They would absolutely be put back into worship the minute they were returned. Many Native dresses and artifacts are still used ceremonially. These are not "history" - they were in use in the modern day.
Another Argument, A Nigerian schoolkid learning about their country's history probably can't afford to do a Pan-european roadtrip to various museums with expensive entrance fees just to see the Benin Bronzes in their near entirety.
It's like someone stealing my rice cooker and kettle then saying "Oh but you can still seeee them just go to fucking Paris"
On top of cost there’s also visa issues. I’m not sure the situation for a Nigerian going to the UK, but it can often be very difficult for people from the Global South to even be approved for tourist visas to North America and Europe. I have a Brazilian friend who was denied a tourist visa to the US because despite being enrolled in university in Brazil, just by virtue of being a young unmarried man he was deemed to be a high risk for overstaying a visa. So even if you have the money to travel across the globe to see your country’s cultural treasures, you can still be denied a visa to even enter the country
Exactly. Although the opposite is true paradoxically ... in Italy in the Uffizi Gallery in Firenze the statue of David one admires outside is a copy, the real one, smaller is inside protected from the weather and believe me the Louvre ain't got nothing on Italian museums for tourist wait lines. The Egyptian collection in the Berlin museum to be fair goes on tour periodically ... hail Schlieimann looter of Troy. This is a digression from your very good point btw but I couldn't resist. To support your argument though, in the Toronto Museum there are several totem poles belonging the Haida which if returned would indeed be used as part of their culture of potlach and spirit animals.
your english is really bad or you can't make a point well. are they not history or WERE they in use? if they WERE in use as you said, then thats not being in use in the modern day. its like saying you used to use something then saying you use it every day. then why say used to? so same question to you, are you just not capable of speaking properly or do you not really have a point to make? either way id say your intellect is lacking to the extent that maybe you should just stfu and keep your ignorance to yourself.
I love how the quote "if we said yes to one you'd soon find the British museum empty" is literally just them going mask off and saying "we won't give any of it back because we want money"
It's a free museum. I don't think anyone who works there is particularly wealthy. It continues through donations.
@mynamesnotadam but a lot of people visit London just to visit the British museum. It brings in a lot of money through tourism
@@mynamesnotadam nothing is ever technically free. The museum makes money somehow, otherwise it wouldn't stay open. There's got to be some sort of money incentive for them otherwise they wouldn't keep something that unnecessarily wastes funds.
@himarisuzuki5208 I'm no expert in its funding, but you can become a member and pay a membership, donate money, use its over priced cafe, some exhibitions charge I think. But it's main source I would be the goverment funding. Maybe. I don't do their finances. Either way a lot of museums are free and it's because they provide a function which is to educate and exhibit the story
I think it's about trust that artifacts will stay untouched and not in private hands. But obviously it doesn't make it ethical to limit access or even lending rights.
"We can't do the right thing now, or else we'd have to do the right thing again in the future" - the British Museum.
That exact logic is how the Brits managed to invent Capitalism.
@@Praisethesunson I thought the idea behind capitalism was "if everyone only cares about themselves, everyone is cared for".
@@qwertyuiopzxcfgh I'd care about someone other than myself. But if I did I'd have to care about even more people in the future.
Capitalism: Bad people do bad things, and when they are rich they pay people to tell everyone else it was for the good of all.
If we admit fault now, we'd have to admit fault for everything...and I mean everything. And we can't have that, now, can we?
@@HighFiveTheHorizon Honestly, uncaringness and imperial atitudes aside, *some* of the removals for archiving may have even made sense at the time, but the situation *now* is more important than blame. Wherever the fault lies, the question is what can be done *now.* Even innocent motives originally, or dodging blame, doesn't have much to do with where something belongs *now.*
“We can’t return your art and culture because otherwise we wouldn’t have our own” is the most depressingly hilarious line I’ve ever heard.
Anglosaxon imperialistic logic right here
That’s one of the most frustrating parts of this. In playing “World Heritage Curator” the British Museum and similar institutions are missing the opportunity to focus solely on their own heritage
@@sassafrassiest or maybe they are focusing on their own heritage, their own heritage of looting and plundering the rest of the world. 🤷
No one made that claim, so you haven't heard it in the first place.
All the conservative bitching about white culture, and this is an admission they ain't got shit.
"no one saw that man as significant" made me immediately cry. As a Hindu and Indian born in the US, this is a deeply painful subject, and John Oliver (as always) covered it so well. Thank you for advocating for cultures whose vocal cords have been ripped from them then called too stupid to speak up when it was happening.
You have no idea how many museums and artifacts have ended up returned because of this episode. It's so amazing what someone with a platform can actually do just by telling a true story.
If you don't mind, could you expand on this? I'd be really interested to know what has been returned.
@@hummusdifier Agreed, I'd really like to hear more from the OP about this.
Do you have any idea?
Zero. The number is zero.
@@FLdancer00 Well, she wasn't wrong. We _don't_ know how many artifacts were returned because of this episode.
😁
One thing John didn't mention was how much more stolen art is hidden away in private collections. These people often have deeper pockets and less hesitation to acquiring art with a "dubious" ownership history.
Yep. That's how the Getty "museum" in California got its start. When I was studying Classics for my undergrad degree that place was discussed a lot because of all the artifacts and how they were acquired.
true, but the segment is called “museums”
Exactly. Public institutions aren't sustaining the black market alone. Where there are buyers, there will be thieves.
I'm for it. Let me cry
Sure, but each single private weirdo will not have anything like the collection that a single major museum like the British Museum has. It's much more practical to focus on the museums (at least for now) because they will naturally be responsive to legislation, whereas rich criminals will not. A single law could be passed & the problem of imperial loot in museums could be solved.
That's not to say that we shouldn't go after those people as vigorously as possible & return their ill gotten loot to their proper homes... it's just a different problem which will be more complicated to solve.
"If you say yes to one, you would suddenly find the British Museum is empty."
That's kinda the point.
That’s also why these museum will never return things, at least not on a scale that matters. These museums would go out of business if they returned all those artifacts, so they’ll never return them willingly.
When enough time passes I think stolen goods become part of the cultural heritage of the country that stole that stuff.
@@bencilsharpie7567 Let me know when you go on vacation for like a week. I'd like to test your theory when it's YOUR shit that's stolen.
OR OR. Even better. YOU COULD MAKE REPLICAS. Damn pretentious bastards.
@@bencilsharpie7567 tell that horse shit to yourself.
A number of years ago, our family visited the British Museum. While we were looking at the Rosetta Stone, my young son asked a guard, "Did you guys steal all this stuff?" The guard's reply was, "Well. I suppose we did."
Locals stole the contents of gravechambers and sold them. Locals didn't give a crap about the historical significance.
Brits discovered ancient artefacts and collected them for science and archeology and to educate the public.
This didn’t happen
And then everyone clapped.
The guard didnt know. The Rosetta Stone was found by a French Soldier when Napoleon had invaded Egypt. Very few people, including the local Egyptians, would have recognized what it was. It is astonishly valuable because it had a proclamation in Egyptian hieroglyphics and also in ancient Greek. The French scholar Champillion painstakingly worked out what the hieroglyphics meant. Britain received the stone as part of a treaty.
@@granthurlburt4062 it was also used as part of wall
if that solder though that he should leave it there, we would still have no clue, how to translate hieroglyphics
"Why do we have three of Gerald Ford's ribs? Because we couldn't get four."
Favorite line in the entire video.
"The difference between archaeology and looting is 50 years." - one of my anthropology professors explaining the fucked up providence arguments of museums.
Ahem. Per John Oliver, the looting is still going on. 😐
But what about dinosaurs
@@youtubeuserandchef471 that's paleontology.
Lyndon B. Johnson died just under 50 years ago, and I've been waiting to sell his ribs for foreverrrrrrrrr
anthropology is just cannibals licking bones.
Fun fact the word loot is a Hindi / Sanskrit (Indian language) word. So the British looted so much that they even took the word loot which the people cried when they were looting.
Wow I didn’t know this! So messed up!
Thanks for sharing!
True like; Lootpaat, Lootmaar, Lootera, Lootere, Loot lena, Loot Liya.....
Fascinating
Queen Victoria named a dog (the first Pekingese in England) stolen from a Chinese palace "Looty"
My mother inherited a piece of the Parthenon from her father that he brought home after WWll. I remember it being a doorstop growing up. She mailed it back to Greece about 15 years ago
Kumail absolutely crushed his bit in this, what a flawless performance 👏
We followed all the laws.
My grandmother found out her grand parents had managed to obtain an Eaglehead dress when she was going through our family storage, she contacted a bunch of people about where it should be probably donated, the museums wanted to not only claim it and planned to put in storage , but were going to fine her for owning it. Keep in mind she was not trying to sell just send it where it should be, thankfully a native American Heritage association got ahold of her and had the legal power to defend their claim on it so it did not end up in a box in a bottom of a basement. It was really gorgoues. I wish I knew where it ended up only that it ended up with a heritage organizaiton.
I was gonna google eaglehead dress because it sounded cool, and only then realised you probably meant an eagle headdress?
That was likely a war trophy. The religious significance of a single eagle feather, let alone an entire war bonnet is too great for it to have been a gift, if genuine. And genuine ones are never sold or traded.
Damn Im white and it still blow my mind how we can still be
sad fact only white people got some of their artefact returned from Denmark (im sure others small things got returned) as A dane who love vikings Im sad for people culture to be stolen
It was probably warn and destroyed by some native on a reservation rather than preserved for future antropologists to study and learn from
Imagine being so privileged and self-centered to have the audacity to think they can find somebody for having artifacts that belongs to somebody else.
love the idea of a Payback Museum
i apriciats this journalism
TimeBucks is a really very good income site
Bien
Nyc
Nice
The French museum to that guy: “you’re trying to acquire what I have rightfully stolen”.
Not really they've been returning quite a lot lately
@@murphy7801Good for them! Doesn’t make that French dude in the vid any less of an asshole tho
I love the payback museum. I also note that the thieves simply write laws that call their actions legal, then seem surprised at their victims anger.
I LIKED HOW YOU POSTED WHAT THE VIDEO SAID BUT IN A MUCH MORE GENERIC WAY!!!! I HOPE YOU GET ALL THE UPDOOTS YOU WANT! THATS WHY YOU POST GENERIC COMMENTS RIGHT?!? SO PEOPLE CLICK THUMBS UP AND YOU DONT FEEL LIKE A FAILURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
calm dawn m'nigga@@itchiegames
I studied Native American Anthropology under a Cherokee professor, and one of the things she was involved with (a side hustle, you could say) was seeking to get stolen Native artifacts out of museum basements and back with the tribes. In one case, the museum was being stubborn that "you can't prove we stole this," so my professor tracked down the granddaughter of the woman who made the item (I think it was a ceremonial bead robe or shawl). This tribal elder explained the little tricks her grandmother used that literally no one could have known, things even the museum didn't notice until they inspected even closer, family trade secrets she still used and had taught to her own grandchildren. She made it more than abundantly clear, this belonged to her family.
Back in the 1800s, her village was raided and her grandmother gangraped by White men. They ran off with anything they thought looked valuable. This included some of the young girls, livestock, head dresses, furs, and her beadwork outfits. So not only was it stolen, but in a really horrific manner. The museum had bought the majority of their Native American artifacts off a group of rapists.
That was not the type of publicity they wanted, so they gave it back. This old lady wore her grandmother's robe at the next dance ceremony. All of this was around 20 years ago, so I hope her grandkids still wear that outfit at ceremonies.
daym...
Probably lost in a box somewhere instead of being shown to the public. What idiots the museum was
@@placebojesus5652 "Blah blah history, blah blah both sides, blah blah blah coulda woulda shoulda, blah blah blah triggered. blah blah I'm in the power seat now, so all the back and forth before doesn't count cause the past was just a practice run, and history actually begins now with my culture on top."
You're a clown and we all see you with your pants around your ankles, pretending. 😆 🤡😆🤡😆🤡😆🤡😆
@@MasterCommandCEO Don't forget the dumbasses who defend the museums and their actions.
@@placebojesus5652 "well we could have been worse" is a very bad excuse when talking about cultural - and actual - genocide tho
also two wrongs don't make a right? yes it's horrible native americans killed some of your family, but that doesn't excuse theft, murder and gangrape and it isn't an excuse to not try to right the wrongs of the past.
i mean both as a general rule. i don't think europeans are especially cruel or evil. just don't make excuses because you're uncomfortable with your ancestor's history.
Every time I'm reminded of that "the british museum would be empty" line, my mind has the same response: Then it deserves to be empty.
Like... Britain is a place, right- it has a history- plenty of museums and interpretive centers just talk about what is physically nearby.
Also, think of the exhibits they could create telling the story of stealing all this shit and giving it back. Like the Experience Music Project for cultural resource theft.
Yeah that's what I'm wondering too. Do the Brits not have their own heritage to display if the museums would be empty? Then they better get to work and start creating some!
"If you're nothing without it, then you shouldn't have it."
that's because the brits have no history worth showing probably.....Colonization? yeah, best at it.
@@pinkunicorn8794 unfortunately it would seem that their heritage is largely about showing up and looting other people's heritage...
The line “if you say yes to [giving back one artifact] you suddenly find the British Museum would be empty” is shockingly similar to what the evil mercenary guy said in Disney’s Atlantis: The Lost Empire before he tried to steal the city’s power source for a museum…
“Academics, you never want to get your hands dirty. Think about it. If you gave back every stolen artifact from a museum, you'd be left with an empty building! We're just, providing a necessary service to the archeological community.” - Lyle Tiberius Rourke, 1914
Shout out to my history teacher for showing the whole class this video! I have never laughed and also been so angry at the same time.
Fun fact about the Elgin Marbles: After the British Museum refused to return them on the grounds that Greece didn’t have a proper place to display them, they built the state of the art modern Acropolis Museum in Athens for the chief purpose of housing the Elgin Marbles. They still refuse to send them back. Also, when Lord Elgin was transporting the marbles to Britain, the ship they were on sank, and the marbles had to be salvaged from the ocean floor.
This is like a caricature. A thief pulling a sled of stolen goods that tips over and they hurriedly addresses the situation before their victims can catch them
It is truly very sad
Please call them the Parthenon Marbles not "the elgin marbles". They were never his. Thank you. A greek person.
Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and gives salvation to everyone who has faith in him. True faith in Jesus will have you bear good fruit and *drastically* change for the better! Those led by the Holy Spirit do not abide in wickedness.
*God is ONE manifesting himself as THREE;* the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! Bless him! *For these three are one.*
As I am led by the Holy Spirit, nothing I state is a lie, but the truth of God. Anyone who tells you differently is misinformed or a liar. They do not know God, nor led by him.
Anyone who *claims* to be a Christian and is against what I am doing, and where I am doing it; the Holy Spirit does not dwell within them, they lack understanding. They know not God, read his word, and their religion is in vain. Do not hear them, they will mislead you, the lost cannot guide the lost.
When you trust in God and cast your cares (worries, anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts) upon him, they will be NO MORE!
Know that there is power in the name Jesus Christ! His name casts out demons and heals!
The world is wicked, evil, and of the devil.
I too, was a wicked sinner of the world before I opened my heart to God. I am living proof of God's work and fruitfulness! He is an active God who hears the prayers of his! God's children are set apart (holy) and righteous. The devil is a liar that comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy; that includes your relationship with God.
Greek person here: our conservation methods are actually very advanced. I attended a seminar a few years ago where a specialist actually went into detail about the methods they use to conserve and preserve the marbles. A lot of time and effort is put into researching the best ways to care for our artefacts, something that can’t be said for the British museum.
It doesn't matter. This argument has been used by enablers of every atrocity that has occurred.
Sadly, as the other person said, I imagine the Brits would just argue that these techniques are invalid or incorrect and you guys don’t actually know what you’re doing. :(
The artifacts were fine all this time until the brits decided to steal them. So obviously the people who they have belonged to for millennia know how to take care of their treasures. Unlike the savages who looted these artifacts out of cultural deficiency and jealousy.
Honestly, that's not even the point. It is your stuff-it's not really any of Britain's business if it is cared for properly or not. If you guys want to take your stuff back, beat it into dust with a hammer, then make a toilet out of it, well, that would be your decision. Needs to go back.
It's always the Brits and their lousy lies...
So many Nepalese deities are all over USA. The most important one is Taleju Bhagwan goddess, she graces Chicago museum right now. I am 30 years old and I have never seen the statue cause it was stolen decades ago and now the empty temple stands in heart Kathmandu waiting for the deity to return home. I spotted several of deities in Yale museum as well. It’s heartbreaking.
I honestly feel like at this point, we can really just create replicas to display and send back the originals if we really want to display stuff.
Would be much funnier to send back replicas though
Yup, with 3D modeling and printers they can recreate just about anything!
We could also send the British Museum a bunch of Robert E. Lee statues. Win-win for everyone!
They already do. Take for example the Sutton hoo helmet. There is a reproduction to show what it originally looked like, many people assume it is the original. The original was in pieces and incomplete when it was first discovered.
It depends. With The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act museums actually have to get permission from tribes to have replicas.
One of the most fun museums I've ever visited was filled with REPLICAS of famous sculptures, and the fact that they weren't originals truly didn't lessen the impact of the craftsmanship and artistic vision of the artist. I don't know why we can't do that with all the objects we've stolen from other countries. I'm sure that most people wouldn't be able to spot the difference even if they knew.
Or how about establishing a relationship with the country of origin to loan out artifacts to museums around the world where they can be appreciated by many more, and their owners are rightfully compensated for sharing their history?
Look up dinosaur skeletons and find out how much what you see has been replicated, also go to the shipwreck museum in key west and see how they replicate artifacts for show.
@@sircrapalot9954 Oliver addresses that near the end as a viable (and even likely) option many of these countries can take. The issue is most of these museums don’t simply want to display the treasures - they accumulate wealth by “owning” it and a loaning system prevents that.
There is a certain awe in seeing original pieces, but it should be the decision of the nation of origin. So much stuff was taken from 3rd world countries. I bet the extra revenue from loaning their historic artifacts would bring them closer to a modern world. And I'd be willing to spend extra to see an original piece, especially if I'm used to seeing the replica.
@@ascent8487 to apreciate the craftsmanship? replicas are better for disserning details since they are .. well not hundreds or thousands of years old. A replica is basically what the exhibited sculpture looked like when it was made. You can allow people to touch replicas or at least get mutch closer as they are not as valuable.
I had my best moment during my visit to the British Museum in one of its toilets, where I found written on one white brick: "I suppose you stole this marble too, eh?". Brilliant!
@John Capry Well, most of the museum's collection didn't impress me, the only other great thing I remember having a glimpse there was the Rosetta Stone - it was crowded around it.
@John Capry Just spreading the sunshine, aren't you?
@John Capry Aww, that's so sweet. Getting your feelings hurt on behalf of those poor colonizers. Surely, they would give you big hugs for defending their honor.
@John Capry You seem to be a moment away from spewing something daft. Go for it.
@John Capry I'm sure the imperialist overlords pay you well for your sniveling boot licking on their behalf. oh, your doing it for free? just a cretin, then. how sad.
Its so gross how often they default to the age old argument that "the law," which was written by thieves to legalize their plunder, is on their side. Really feels like "we were the aggressor, we stole it fair and square, and they couldn't do anything about it" wrapped up in a prim and proper facade, and feels very pompous.
Former archivist (turning farmer) here. Thank you for bringing all of this up, it's essential. Could you maybe do a kind of part 2 about the environmental impact of archiving and museums? We are preserving ourselves to death.
Why the hell would you give up being an archivist for being a farmer lol
@@briantwiss9078 you can't eat history
This reminds me a lot of the Irish Giant Charles Byrne. He was 7' 7'' and he was so afraid of a collector or museum displaying his body when he died that he had his friends bury him at sea. Unfortunately, before his friends could follow through with their promise his corpse was stolen by a 'collector' and was eventually sold to the Royal College of Surgeons in London. It is still on display there over 200 years later despite efforts by activists for him to be buried. People with the same genetic condition as Byrne, who are from the same part of the country as him and probably share DNA have offered to donate their skeletons when they die so that Byrne can be released, but the museum has always refused.
That is seriously horrifying
That's absolutely awful & just so callous.
To know that they would be so obsessive about 'collecting' him, he must have heard a bunch of super creepy comments about displaying his body while still alive.
that's just horrible
This is fucked up
As a South Asian, I thank John for bringing this age old issue up just in case people have forgotten about it. Our politicians surely has!
indian subcontinent not south asia, euro is also part of asia continent but they declaired there subcontinent a different continent
@@user-hq8wm8giyujcg It depends on what you mean with continent africa asia and europe is one continent or 3 depending on how you define things.
@@user-hq8wm8giyujcg As someone from the area now referred to as Europe, I would be completely fine with naming Europe "Western Asia" from now on.
@@rvdb7363 its not about naming, call ur region Europe, i dont care. Its about calling that region a continent, its not but a subcontinent
@@user-hq8wm8giyujcg No it is not a subcontinent the continent if you want to add asia africa and europe togheter has a name it is called afroeurasia also known as the old world.
There is different definitions of continent europe asia and africa classify as continents.
But they also all do not classify as continents, there is a similar deal with America by the way.
Clearly that man never understood Solomon’s story there. Solomon wasn’t saying whoever loves the baby more gets the baby, he was figuring out the true owner of it and giving it back!
You know, it really speaks to the quality of this show that you can just watch episodes of it again and again. Even if there already a good bit old.
In 1988, as a Belgian teenager, I visited the British Museum. I was shocked when I saw parts of temples and large statues that were sawn in blocks and have been moved to Great Britain. I asked the attendant if this wasn't all stolen from the countries where it came from and I'll never forget the answer : "I can't answer that question, I would be out of a job".
@Chad 007 Shut up Chad
Maher bill
@Koen: An answer like that is pretty much the same as saying "Yes."
Can't even get a truthful answer out of a "Museum" attendant. Ha! That's rich🤣
given that was only 20 years after the dissolution of "Belgisch-Kongo", that must've hit a bit hard home for ya :P
but yeah kinda shocking how much of the really messed up things people still considered "business as usual" until really recently while we all think it's been like hundreds of years ago...
related "fun" fact i learned (as a german): germany technically still holds territory in cuba nowadays. granted we didn't steal _that_ bit, castro just gave it to the DDR (and then during the reunification we all forgot it existed, and then a few years ago everyone just decided it was "only gifted symbolically"), but... yeah, so much for ancient colonial times :P
As a college student studying library sciences (for rare books) and museum studies… this video made me cry.
One of the most coherent arguments this show has ever made. Be proud of this piece of work.
My hometown of Dresden is currently negotiating returning Benin Bronzes to Nigeria. Compared to the global stage, we are a small city and need the tourism - and yet, the Bronzes will be going home to Nigeria within the next year. If an unknown Eastern German town can deal with giving the Bronzes away, I'm sure the British Museum can handle a little morality.
Since you mentioned tourism, I thought I'd throw in I'm thinking of visiting Dresden from the UK soon! Looks like a lovely town
Ya but that’s a concept that can only be taught after lobotomy.. pus%#{%
calling Dresden an "unknown small city" is doing it a bit of a disservice, honestly. HOWEVER, that still means that the bronzes should be returned. Dresden has more than enough of it´s own local historic artwork and architecture to not need to rely on looted artifacts for tourism.
@@a.mcsweeney2547 It absolutely is, but some of the people living there can be a bit... offputting. I used to live there myself.
Awesome, would be nice of them to return the Mayan codices too!
I love that the whole point of the Solomon story is that when you truly love something you are willing to let it go to make sure it isn't harmed in the conflict of ownership. Meanwhile the British museum was very literally willing to hack the "baby" in half to get to keep a part of it. Like this is the absolutely worst story to make your case!
Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and gives salvation to everyone who has faith in him. True faith in Jesus will have you bear good fruit and *drastically* change for the better! Those led by the Holy Spirit do not abide in wickedness.
*God is ONE manifesting himself as THREE;* the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! Bless him! *For these three are one.*
As I am led by the Holy Spirit, nothing I state is a lie, but the truth of God. Anyone who tells you differently is misinformed or a liar. They do not know God, nor led by him.
Anyone who *claims* to be a Christian and is against what I am doing, and where I am doing it; the Holy Spirit does not dwell within them, they lack understanding. They know not God, read his word, and their religion is in vain. Do not hear them, they will mislead you, the lost cannot guide the lost.
When you trust in God and cast your cares (worries, anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts) upon him, they will be NO MORE!
Know that there is power in the name Jesus Christ! His name casts out demons and heals!
The world is wicked, evil, and of the devil.
I too, was a wicked sinner of the world before I opened my heart to God. I am living proof of God's work and fruitfulness! He is an active God who hears the prayers of his! God's children are set apart (holy) and righteous. The devil is a liar that comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy; that includes your relationship with God.
It reeks of “white man’s burden”
I was thinking EXACTLY that!
@@Call_Upon_YAH Cool story bro.
I love that Kumail Nanjiani and Nick Offerman do educational PSAs in this show lol
The part I find most upsetting is that in American schools (unsure about European education), Africa’s history is constantly overlooked as though they lacked culture and society. Often as a way to excuse and justify colonialism and slavery.
But the culture and societal history was either stolen or destroyed throughout the continent.
I feel so lucky that while i was in high school i took the elective called AFRICAN EXPERIENCE. Which i think is pretty progressive for the sometimes backward Pennsylvania
That version of the history of colonised African states was by design. Colonialists justified their land grab by saying that there was no "civilisation" evident and the people were "savages". So tearing down the cities, universities, castles and churches was systematic, then they simply wrote the history books. Always question history books, always ask who wrote them. By the way, Ethiopia is one country that managed to retain it's cultural heritage. When you visit there, you'll understand just how much the world has lost because of the greed of the Europeans.
The way that woman smiles as she patronizes, is chilling.
Wypipo have no shame when it comes to colonialism and theft of culture and arts.
The mouth sounds alone gave me goosebumps and shivers. Then I heard what she was saying and almost puked.
@@ArashiKageTaro That's likely because they don't see themselves as connected to the crimes of their predecessors. That seems to be a common theme in all these cases of historical wrongs displayed as 'history' by the perpetrators' descendants.
@@abercrombieblovs2042 Exactly. They don't see themselves as connected so by extension they take no responsibility in most cases for the return of these artifacts and relics.
@@rjmeeks4152 To be fair, I can't really blame them - if some random person knocked on my front door and said "Hey, your dining room table was stolen from us by your great-great-great-grandfather, we want it back", I would hesitate for... more than a few seconds, let's say that.
Of course, these aren't just random people.
I used to work for the natural science museum in Houston and they did go through their exhibits and their archives and return Native American artifacts to the various nations they belonged to. Then they worked with native artists and commissioned replicas for display. I don't know why other museums can't do something similar.
It is sad that other museums don’t do that
Repatriation and inclusion of communities are rising themes in museums and it really seems that museums are starting to do similar things much more often.
Replicas are the most obvious answer
@@seffishestopal5950 You people act like King Tut is still walking around to return his belongings to. Sending items back to their country of origin, or even thinking about just sending that country money as "reparations" isn't the answer here. You're rewarding people who didn't have anything to do with the artifacts to begin with.
@@tepidceranda3394 To people who didn't have anything to do with them? It's THEIR cultural heritage ffs. This is not about returning articats to individuals but to return them to their cultural homes so the indigenous people can enjoy their heritage. Jeez..
It is absolutely a crime to plunder societies. I have been following you for decades now, and I feel like you are speaking my thoughts on every topic you address. I can also appreciate your sense of humor, or since you're British humour!
That "Oorsh Shitt" French impersonation had my laughing so hard my sides hurt. Hahaha man was that spot on
I met some members of the Lakota Nation a few years back. They told me that one of the leaders in the community, Mama Jules, was Crazy Horse's granddaughter, and that she had been trying for years to get his war jacket/vest back from the Smithsonian. The Smithsonian just kept delaying and giving bogus answers for why it could not be returned. All of these cases take on a greater level of frustration when you hear the personal stories of the folk the items were taken from.
What im hearing is we need to oceans eleven the Smithsonian in order to return the artifacts to their rightful owners
mama julz is a gift to this world.
@@Umbrage0 im in
@@Umbrage0 I am also in
First off, Mama Jules is a great name and I'm sure she's as awesome as she sounds.
Secondly, imagine some institution is hanging on to your grandfathers coat for no good reason.
“You can’t judge us in the present based on what we did in the past” ok, but in the present you are openly choosing to keep items you know are stolen, and yes, we can absolutely judge you for that
No, you cant, because you live on stolen land yourself. If you never owned it, nor your parents or grandparents never owned it, you have no claim to it. This argument of perpetuity is idiotic.
@@Skozerny that still doesn’t dismiss the fact that we can judge it. A-hole🤦♂️🤓🤓🤓🤓
@@Skozerny Considering your name is Roy, I doubt your parents cared for you, it shows.
If any of the countries complaining about looted goods had illicitly obtained western artifacts they would not in a million years return them.
@Skozerny cool story lady
Great episode! I often wondered about the ownership of cultural art pieces in museums and was really happy to find this topic discussed here. I love this show so much! You are the best!
John Oliver is a treasure in and of himself. I really appreciate this video.
He belongs in a museum!
Oh wait...
@@rheiagreenland4714 😁
Why don’t they say, “We are going to return the everything to their rightful country of origin and maintain a collection of carefully crafted replicas to replace them, each paying homage to the original and the story of its return as part of the museum.”That would still allow the collection to inspire, and put them back in their rightful place. You could even document the replication as an art form of paying respect.
I’m going to answer my question by saying…. Money…. That’s why. All of those items hold huge value to the countries who own them… and they won’t let them go.
Not at all a bad idea. I want to add that in some cultures certain objects deemed sacred are not supposed to be displayed, photographed or replicated. But yes repatriation, the return of those objects, should always be the practice.
Who wants to see replicas though?
@@jerusareem actually, a lot of private collectors put replicas on display so the genuine object can be stored more safely.
@@Justin_Leahy I get that but we aren’t talking dinosaur bones here. No one is going to make a replica of a 1000 year old book. Look what happened in Syria during the uprising. So many sculptures and artifacts were destroyed by isis from the old ages that we will never get to see again. Some countries can’t take care of these things. I’m against these museums but I understand the need sometimes.
"Can we have our stuff back?" "I don't know. I'm not sure you can even prove it is your stuff." "Yes, I can. You put it in a display case, with a little placard VERY EXPLICITLY STATING THAT IT IS MY STUFF"
The British Museum in a nutshell
It is more nuanced than that. Britain has the Rosetta stone because we took it off a French warship that we defeated in the Napoleonic wars. Napoleon had a good old loot when he was there. Also, there are some things in the museum that were sold in good faith by the governments of the time and now the modern governments want it back. I am not against it in principle but if that happens, then the French, Spanish , American etc museums plus private collections, should give their stuff back too. I am sure there are British treasures in foreign museums. The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York has a whole 'British' floor.
😁
Meh... not quite. One thing to note about the Benin Bronzes is that they are Benin, not Nigerian. Benin has been eaten by Nigeria but the bronzes would be returned to Nigeria, not Benin.
The past is a distant shore. The owners and creators of these treasures are LONG dead. Those who happen to be born on the same ground in modern times have no more claim than those who are actually descended from the creators who were driven from their ancestral lands. Modern Egyptians are unrelated to the builders of the Pyramids. The Roman empire looted the shit out of Britain. Should modern Mexico return the art of the Incas to their few remaining descendents?
All this fighting over old shit is averice and prestige and nothing more.
@@AnonEyeMouse The video explained that it's far more than that, and you chose to ignore it.
"Well we can't give it back. We're still looking at it!"
One of the best programmes you ever presented John, amongst a very selective lot. Thank you ! As an art lover, this is really food for thought and could almost turn ones perceptions of art galleries and museums on its head. The truth it seems is never pleasant but it is essential for us to remain human.
Brilliant episode. Loved the Payback Museum!
I’m half Egyptian and I’m born and raised in Egypt. When I was little, I was SO fascinated by ancient Egyptian culture. When I was about 6 years old, my mom’s friend took me to the Egyptian museum. To my horror, almost all the artefacts weren’t available to see. There were just glass cases with photos of what would have been there, but were at other museums in Western Europe, the UK, or NY. The new Egyptian museum is opening up soon and supposedly it’ll have the largest archeological collection in the world. Here’s hoping that it’s not just going to be a huge disappointment like I had as a kid.
In Babylon they had to build a replica of the Ishtar gate because some German guy fucking stole the whole real entry way and 118 out of 120 lions on the processional way. They had the audacity to say “Iraqis couldn’t take care of their artifacts” because the remnants of the gate got damaged by US bombardment during the war. They had the audacity to say that the gate was “bought and paid for” because smuggling something down the river in pieces during the night is the kind of thing you do when you buy something 😂
@@aperson8916 honestly the only reason the Pyramids of Giza are still in Egypt is because they would have been too heavy to move. Those assholes even took our three largest Obelisks from Luxor… it’s absolute insanity.
@@aperson8916 In Iraq's case they were right. Remember what happened at the Iraqi National Museum when dozens of ancient statues were destroyed by muslim fondamentalists? Turns out they were not safe
@@dekenlst Are you being serious? Do you also think Ukraine don't deserve to take care of their own artifacts because they are being demolished by Russia? You can't judge the museum based on what other people choose to do to it! That's called victim blaming.
@@dekenlst no way is this an argument for the whole history of the continuous plundering of a countries history.
My heart broke for the tribal elders viewing their own artifacts. 😔
ThEy CoUlD jUsT BuY tHeM bACk
@@Praisethesunson why would the tribes have to pay when they were stolen?
Why? Just like the confederates, they lost.
@@buhriee6016 Cause of power. Tribes don't have it. Holders of Capital do. Duh.
@@theforcedmemefilthypapist2892 Natives didn't ask for a war.
”If I have to return the some of the stuff I stole then I might have to give it all back”
Terrible argument
CBS Sunday Morning did a piece on this recently. New York has a police team devoted to this very subject. Some items have actually been seized out of people's home. Worth a watch.
Thanks for the video!
The ridiculous part is, that there is a well established and functioning lease and lend economy for museums. Most countries are very, very open to lending out artworks to other countries museums to share their culture around the world, even indefinitely.
It's fine if the countries of origin agree to that arrangement, the issue here are the objects that the countries want returned.
@@Kap00rwith2os I'm pretty sure that's their point. These museums could hold and display these objects ethically, they just don't bother to go through the process of returning them and then getting lending permission.
Its a weird business practice acquiring art and cultural objects through conquest or illegal trade and then making money on them not only by displaying them but also renting them out to other museums. That would be like stealing objects from your neighboring city and making money on its display and renting it out for others to display. And the sad thing is seeing people, who work for the museums, or profit from this practice, actively defend the museums claim the objects despite the obvious dubious morality of it, all in the name of profits. Every time i see someone say something so crazy or defend the indefensible i have to stop and say "Well, whos profiting from this" and once you follow the money trail, it all makes a dark sense.
@@Salvanas42 why would I lease what is rightfully mine?
The only time I saw the cylinder of cyrus in my country (iran) it was when the Brits had "loanded" it to us
I just lost my best fur friend last year and it was devastating as it always is. Being an adopter of older pets, ive been through this heartbreak many times. All we can do is give them the best lives possible and and pass on the love they give us. So sorry for your loss farron. So glad those two kittens landed in the right hands.
I very much appreciate this episode. And thank you for the tour of the Payback Museum. I probably will never get there on my own.
My favorite thing I think I've ever seen in a museum is a totem pole carved by a local tribal artist. The museum used to have a looted totem pole, but they gave it back to the tribe and instead commissioned a new pole to be displayed in a section dedicated to the tribe's history and current goings-on.
With our modern technology, exhibits could include videos of them making the items, which I think is infinitely more valuable.
That’s beautiful! I would love to see that.
😭that’s so beautiful! Now we just need to do this nation wide
Was this in the R.O.M?
I don’t know if this is where you had your experience, but I work at the Harvard Museums of Science & Culture, in Cambridge, MA, and we have that exact situation! The new totem pole has an adjoined video showing it’s creation. There are plenty of other original indigenous artifacts, but I’m at least happy that this was given back.
One of my favorite sayings about the British museum. "The only reason the Pyramids aren't in the British Museum is because they were too big to carry."
Yeah, to this day no one can explain exactly how they were constructed. Things that make you go "Hmm"
@@boomboomtrucker8032 We "don't know" because we have _several_ ways it could have been done and some have been tested in practice, though of course at a lower scale because the really amazing part of the pyramids is that they imply an incredibly advanced planning, engineering and logistic effort over a long period of time given the era.
Why devalue the capacities of the ancients just because you prefer fiction and need to believe in aliens ?
@@boomboomtrucker8032
I can say that they were not made from mud and straw they didn't need mortar either.
@@boomboomtrucker8032 We actually do though. We can't prove that a method or another was used, but we've shown a lot of possible methods that could have been used to do so at the time. The bullshit about perfect geometry in these is complotist horseshit. Like how some alleys in the pyramids are perfect to the millimeter while rock blocks have gaps already bigger than a centimeter at points. They are an incredible prowess for the time they were built, but nothing that can't be reproduced with modern or ancient tools and enough people.
@@boomboomtrucker8032 we know how it was made we just don’t have the tools to recreate it as the ancient Egyptians built it. The method is extinct just like how we cannot recreate Apollo 13 because the technology and hand calculations and physical construction of it cannot be replicated due to increased technology and quite literally the loss of hand written calculations used to build it.
The Gerald Ford segment not ending in a joke - POWERFUL
I will admit to expecting a live James Spader tied, gagged, and on display (the Remington costume of course)
It’s like if when adults play the “I got your nose!” game with kids, instead of graciously giving it back after the kid starts to cry, they simply told the child that actually there’s no record of stealing in my acquisition of your nose and also until we can trust you to properly maintain your own nose, I will be the responsible custodian of it from now on :) 🤦🏻♀️
The part about stonehenge just being left outside in the rain ... I laughed so hard
“It’s got grass and shit on it…” 🤣
Its been there for thousands of years so that's fine, it's a suitable environment 🥲
I do wish they had touched on the problem of returning artifacts and antiquities to nation with active Islamic Fundamentalist groups destroying any and all non-Muslim artifacts. They claim they are "false idols". Should we return things from museums to countries where radicals in their population are actively destroying those things?
Cleaning with wire brushes and god knows what chemicals? What'd they clean it with? Air fresheners?
ok
One more infuriating thing about the "well it's on display and anyone can visit it" argument is that a lot of the artifacts were stolen from poor countries, where a trip to the UK can be prohibitively expensive. Where I am from it would cost roughly one third to one half of the median annual salary for a 1 week trip to the UK, and according to Google there are more than 100k artifacts from my country in UK museums. So the average person will likely never afford to go see them.
They mostly make the "Can't take care of it themselves" excuse with countries with a majority of people of color. 'cause gotta be racist on top of it. They aren't going to do that with France. Although doing it with Greece is a pretty bold move.
Still better that some people can see it and experts can study it than noone. Tell me what happened to Palmyra again? Or to Mosul museum and library? Tell me why most of the graves in Egypt are found empty? What happened to the thing from the graves when found by locals?
Especially when you consider how much sits in storage and is not in fact actually on display.
@@risharehraje793 You're comparing ancient crimes to modern looting. Not to mention, a lot of museums who want their artifacts back would gladly lend them out for study from experts.
So, what about all the shit just sitting in storage getting dusty with no one looking at them or even knowing it's down there. I can't count the number of times museums have lost artifacts in their own storage only to be rediscovered decades later because no one gave a damn to look for them in the first place. But we get it, you fully believe museums are good and blah blah. Bet you complain when Confederate statues are taken down
Well said!
Such a great video!! I hope more items could be returned to countries where they came from.
Please please do not stop making such true and valuable videos! The last bit - mmmmaaaasterpiece! As for someone coming from a colonialized country, this felt like 10 thousand fluffiest puppies climbing all over you!
From the british perspective, and those of other countries with stolen artifacts, the way forward ought to be fairly simple. Create replicas of each artifact to keep in your own museum, and return the originals to the countries they were stolen from.
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Yeah, they can have the copies of the Parthenon the Greeks were forced to have.
often times they were not stolen from countries. and often times those countries cannot be trusted to take care of them. the middle east has a history of destroying artifact from antiquity because they are pagan. i think it would be best to have artifacts held by those that would take care of them
They literally already do this with treasures from Western nations, so I don't see why they can't do it for everything else.
Then we'll have someone's uncle selling relics from a tugboat.
As someone from Mexico who knows there's a _shitload_ of Prehispanic artifacts scattered around the world, it makes me happy John Oliver talked about this topic. Hopefully we'll see the day when each historical relic is placed back in their place of origin and kept safely for the years to come. Alas, I might be too optimistic.
Costa Rican here. i feel the exact same way
@@Gurianthe I want to see all the skeletons of the people sacrificed by Mayans and Aztecs.
i recently learned that my dad was partially taino (a peaceful tribe indigenous to the Caribbean that forcibly integrated with slaves and colonists because they were hunted out of their homes and enslaved) and that there is fortunately a taino tribe in Boriken (also known by its colonist name Puerto Rico) that is fighting for government recognition and keeping the language alive. recently an auction house in europe called Christie auctioned off ancestor spirit homes (zemis) for millions, calling these zemi's and cooking utensils "exotic artifacts of an extinct peoples" meanwhile the tribe was fighting to get them returned. they ended up selling almost half of it to private collectors and put the rest in storage and said that the these personal incredibly sacred pieces were "gifts" and given in "good faith".
LOL so the cartels can destroy them in the next war?
Fuck all these weird comments except the one about the Caribbean.
"How long is okay?"
It always gets me that the British Museum can't just make a copy to keep and then return the artifacts to where they belong.
I have seen the marbles in Greece and the matching parts in the British Museum. There is no reason that the British Museum cannot make duplicates and return the originals.
There are art historian sculptors who would cry tears of joy if offered the chance to create those replicas.
czcams.com/video/hB1iJULTTUU/video.html Finally it’s here
A museum in my home town has plaster casts of the Elgin marbles. It was only in the last several years that I learned something about how little museums got many plaster casts--in many cases, the source was a museum that had started out with casts, but got their hands on the real thing, and no longer wanted the copies. I don't recall the details, but looting is ultimately responsible for many small museums getting quality copies.
Which makes me wonder--instead of getting involved with thieves, why aren't museums choosing to obtain quality copies, and leaving the originals where it belongs? It seems to me that the museums would save an awful lot of money by doing that, and avoid immoral dealings with crooks. Why not take those stolen artifacts, make good copies, and return them to where they were stolen from? Though plaster copies normally only reproduce the shapes, they could be made to match the colors, too, where that makes a difference. Of course, things like the Elgin marbles weren't originally plain stone, and the scrubbing they got destroyed a huge amount of information--they were originally painted--so we don't know exactly what they should look like anymore.
@@lggonda not to mention scanners and 3-d printers.
@@TheEudaemonicPlague I would expect it has to do with their business model; the only thing museums are selling is the premise of the "real thing", presumably old or even ancient. Replacing them with replicas entirely puts them firmly in the educational category, and people are just not paying for that.
As a Greek person I am glad someone with a large audience like John Oliver is taking about this
Just stop abusing your statues man XD
@@zwenkwiel816 considering that it was a British man, not a Greek one, who carved out the bits of relief mentioned in the video, I’d say check yourself
@@jordinagel1184 hey I'm not the one having sex with statues here
@@zwenkwiel816 riiiight… Forgive me for having taken you at all seriously
Agreed rather wholeheartedly. Oh sure these bits of culture are nice to show off in museums, but we have the technology to now make highly detailed full 3d scans of the pieces and use those to make near flawless duplicates.
I remember a field trip to the parthanon in Nashville in sixth grade.
I. Fucking. LOVED it. I didn't care that it was all reproduction. I just loved that it was there and it was an attempt at bringing antiquity TO us in a way that was accessable. I mean. It wouldn't have had the sam effect to see a bit of this anda bitof that behind glass. Seeing a life sized recreation of the frescos and statues. To walk the length and bredth of a place and cast your mind's eye back. 'This was built.... without modern tools by a culture who had the will and knowledge to make it happen.... also a shitton of slaves ando r menials to do the grunt work.'
I want more places like that. Less of the vandalism.
In college, an anthropology student told me, "If these artifacts were not stolen the native people would not take care if them like we would; also, they would try to sell their own art and artifacts through the underground markets." This is a twisted rationalization?
This is one of my favorite episodes thank you
Thank you for covering this.
Here in Greece the marbles are called the Parthenon marbles, because they are part of the Parthenon, while in Britain they call them Elgin marbles, because they think they are part of Lord Elgin.
Nah, we also call them as Parthenon marbles. And i personally want it to go back to Athens because it's incomplete.
I, too, would like to see them go back to Athens. Religious buildings should not be dismantled piecemeal for the aesthetics of foreigners, even if hardly anyone practices the specific religion anymore. It's just not right.
@@organicfarm5524 How about wanting for them to go back because it's the fucking right thing to do and not because it's incomplete?
"You may be wondering how we have so many great foreign treasures here at the British Museum. And the answer is simple: Gun beats spear." - Frankie Boyle
Thats how we reached the stage of nukes
Many of the non-industrialized countries in the world had guns and cannons too.
@@minty6347 you do know what industrialized means right?
@@jockjockin9589 🤣🤣
@@minty6347 You do know what industrialized means right?... Most of all you do comprehend and understand what happened in the early stages of colonization right? or did you not do your research in history well enough?. You do comprehend as well theirs a reason the UK's British museum has a lot of pillaged artifacts right? (Dont forget the other countries like Austria, France and etc.).
"... who on his BEST day, looked like THAT..." 😂😂😂
Funny how the only times people make the argument that you can't judge history by the standards of our time is when they want to justify atrocities.
My daughter works at the National Museum of Scotland and worked hard to help a indigenous community from our home in Canada try to repatriate a memorial pole that was stolen from their community. She was disciplined for trying to help them. I’d love you to do a story about their struggle.
As a Canadian with an interest in museum work and my country's cultural heritage that is interesting. Thanks for sharing and good on her for trying to help
Thank you to your daughter for her efforts. This story got a fair bit of press here in Canada when the Nisga'a delegation visited the museum in August, but I assume the repatriation efforts have stalled since there have been no updates since then.
Still, the fact that the museum was willing to meet and discuss the possible repatriation brings me some hope. The British Museum has another Nisga'a pole which they purchased from the same man (Marius Barbeau) who sold the pole in the National Museum of Scotland. They also have a Haida pole acquired from a different collector. Maybe Scotland can set an example that prompts the British Museum to return these two poles and other artifacts looted throughout history.
@@kestaa I very much hope The National Museum of Scotland can be a leader in reparations. It is a huge passion for my daughter. She hopes to complete her Archaeology degree.
What is wrong with sccotland?
Not only Scotland, but Scottish People are different from English. More open. They felt in their skins the evil from Britain...
My mum who is a chronic fox news watcher was still unsure after this and it only took a "imagine if the lady of lourdes statue of Mary was sawn off at the feet to be put on display in Kenya, how livid you and all of fox news would be" to get her to understand how not ok all of this is.
Karen sounds like a real treat to be around
@@theultimaterental We don't choose the quality of our own family unfortunately, but we can decide the quality of their retirement home.
@@galaktoast lmao!
Hypocrites
@@galaktoast LOL! I love this.
Thank you, mate. I am Benin and we all know the history of the looting. The day I went to the British Museum, the African section was not opened and I have never seen the Benin Bronzes.
The clip at the end is so good. It really reminds me of the weird, surreal opening to those old DW documentaries. Unlike any museum I've ever been to, yet somehow, 100% Museum.
When I was in a museum in Cambodia, they had some empty glass cases describing an artifact that was in some other museum and when they asked for it back. Some of the cases did have items with labels when they asked for an item back and when they received it usually several years to a decade later. I think this public shaming is a clever idea and makes people more aware of the issue.
It's exactly the same in the Akropolis museum in Athens
I think the stockades should make a societal comeback. If we can't penalize corporations for crimes then we should at least be able to throw 6$ genetically modified and glyphosate ridden tomatoes at their ceos, cfos, 23 vice presidents and board members. That'll be one long piece of wood. Too bad we have so few old growth forests left in existence.
Someone once asked me how much time needs to pass before grave robbing becomes archaeology, and I immediately responded, "The amount of time it takes to ship it to the British Museum."
ok
Ok
ok
I think when enough time passes the loot becomes part of the cultural heritage of the country that stole it.
@@bencilsharpie7567 I think that’s the hottest fucking take I’ll hear all day, holy shit that’s dumb.
I love this program, but my favourite by far is this one. Excellently researched and presentation incredible.
John Oliver is a treasure.
Love it! That Payback was exquisite!
This reminds me of an exhibition at the Nairobi National Museum. The place was empty except for placques stating what artifact should be there, which European museum has it and why the refuse to return it.
That's so sad... I think it's gonna take a long time to get to a point where most artifacts are returned to the place they were stolen from, but it's definitely worth it to keep trying. Those people deserve ownership of their own cultural heritage just as much as everyone else. It's a spit in the face to have to deal with this after colonialization as well... as if there was not enough harm done already. They really aren't even trying to do the bare minimum in order to set things right after they wronged so many (not just Britain ofc, but since they were the colonial overlords, they are definitely one of the biggest perpetrators here).
@@xXBlacky77Xx
The French carved up huge swathes of Africa too.
@@GTAVictor9128 and put them in the Quai Branly yea
Powerful
See if I was an “influencer” with money to jet around or set up a real life squid game I would be flying there to bring attention to that
Or the sewage spills off the pacific coast that run 24/7 now
As a Mexican, I would have liked to see the case of Moctezuma's headpiece at least mentioned... It's in Austria, and when asked to give it back, they always give the same response: "you cannot guarantee it will be safely transported and kept". Seems like it is the ultimate answer all museums can think about!!!
That's such a bad excuse too....If Austria is so concerned about transportation and preservation then they should make sure it is safely transported and perhaps give resources to ensure it's "kept "well.
more important than that are the codices detailing our pre columbian history. not only was our language, culture taken from us but the history of our people. though we be mixed peoples we are still native american.
bruh... haven't them failed art school people never heard of DHL?! Dalsey,Hillblon and Lynn? CMON!
You don't get to demand something that you were warned was an expensive liability, then demand the other guy foot the bill bc it turns out you can't.
If you REALLY care about it, you'll leave it where it is until you're ready.
Well, they can't really guarantee that the Museum in Austria isn't ever going to be hit by a natural disaster or terrorist attack or just fire.
In all honestly: any curator or restaurateur of such pieces would probably get a minor panic attack at the thought of 'their' beloved baby being taken away an on a dangerous journey to some far-away place where nobody knows about their dietary needs ... ahem, the perfect storage conditions (light, temperature, humidity ...).
The problem is:
1 - It's not like museums wouldn't still transport pieces between each other for exhibitions, and if Austrian experts really has doubts about the expertise in, say, the Mexico City National Museum of Anthropology, then they can simply collaborate and send their own technicians along as advisors.
2 - more importantly: it's not "their" baby. Yes, it probably feels like it when you've been responsible for it for years, but it's not.
In the end, returning it is the only ethical course of action.
Just create a super-duper copy, exhibit that with a plaque that the original is now in Somewhere else, Mexico, because we decided to do the right thing. (Possibly after trying everything else.)
the ending skit is... phenomenal
Brilliant ending! 👏🏾 👏🏾 👏🏾 👏🏾 🌹 👏🏾 🌹 👏🏾 🌹 😂😂😂
Smithsonian still has Chief Big Foot (real name Spotted Eagle) actual prayer pipe, a sacred item, stolen from his body after the Massacre of Wounded Knee. They refused to return it to his grandson, Jasper Spotted Eagle, who recently passed. The tribe is still trying to get it returned to the family.
Best of luck🍀
This is the 4th comment i have said, the Brits and their lousy lies.
The notorious Skull and Bones club at Yale allegedly has the skull of Geronimo that they use for ceremonies. www.npr.org/2009/03/09/101626709/mystery-of-the-bones-geronimos-missing-skull. Maybe his ghost will come back and haunt the f__k out of George H W Bush.
I like the idea of museums returning original objects, but also displaying reproductions. I like even better the idea of having craftspeople in the originating countries create reproductions for museums. That way it supports the continuation of the original crafts, and improves understanding of the cultural significance of the objects. But only if the craftspeople are decently paid for their work, which should go on display, not be kept in a box in storage.
there definitely need to be a industry of art reproductions, as well as international repatriation "agency" to link up with the originals and facilitate sharing and other stuff
@@PrograError I promise you, from the bottom of my heart, art reproductions of almost every type are available, particularly without the artist's consent
You are joking, aren't you?
This sounds so condescending. Artefacts created in the past, of which the context where in they were created isn't possible to recreate, should be returned to their original people, period. They shouldn't need to do all these other things you want them to do. Go recreate your own historical artefacts if you think it's so important.
@@PawSmalls it allows the original to be returned you dip.
I worked at the British museum for 6 months and I have a lot of stories to tell.. lots of very creepy weird stories
@Play Google I'll tell when Oliver wants me to
You can't just drop that here and walk away!!! I hope you only worked there 6 months because you couldn't take being part of such an awful place! I finish my masters in Museum Studies this summer, work in a museum, been to London twice and both times boycotted going to the British Museum. My best friend was mad at me over this but respected my decision because she doesn't work in my field.
As a greek, this topic will always make my blood boil. I wonder sometimes what they would say if one day, someone stole the elgin marbles and just brought them to the acropolis museum. Would the british have the audacity to ask for them back?
i always think the same about the kohinoor diamond and what those stuffy brits would say if we brought it back home
Just do it. If they ask for it, send them Spent nuclear rods, bottled shit and dick pics. Then let them deal with it.
@@ashman8891 It's not just the Kohinoor, they have statues of our God's in their possession.
What would be good is if they made some really high value replicas of the elgin marbles, like to the level a expert is needed to tell the diff, then send the originals back to their homeland and display the replicas. That way that event in history can still be seen in the replica elgin marbles and the originals can go back to once again be part of the display they were taken from.
@@BioroidPilot It's been pointed out that making replicas would also improve the overall understanding of a piece, forcing a more in-depth study of the materials and methods -- which could then additionally help bring back lost arts and make history more hands-on for students. It would also frequently require bringing in peoples from the respective cultures to provide instruction on how to do it right, and WHY it was done a particular way. (And of course, all of this has to be done without causing further damage, and cannot be made into an excuse to keep holding on to anything indefinitely.)
This brings to mind Kilmonger's first appearance in "Black Panther."
He came to a museum to steal a Wakandian artifact, after first schooling a museum curator about the actual history of that artifact. The fictional museum curator seems toned down after seeing the real life versions.
Oh yeah! Same! I think they tried too hard to not make westerners seem "the bad guys" otherwise we'd all agree too much with Kilmonger, but they may have gone too far and muddied things to the point that the turnaround perspective of the movie went over most movie goers heads.
And then Marvel had him do a war crime because they can't have people realising he was right
Ha yeah and just in case you were thinking, "Wait he's kinda right" then they have him kill people. So now you can sympathize with his motives, but still root for the heroes. This happens a lot with villains.
yeah and they made him a villain for it. makes me think about the message of the movie
@@kharris2393 and that multi-layered character personality makes a truly sympathetic and compelling villain.
wow, this is such a good video. genuinely want to learn so much more about art history now